March 24, 2025 • 30 mins
Coach Mo welcomes author and communication professor Craig Mattson for a thoughtful exploration of our collective digital overwhelm and how we can reclaim our humanity in technology-saturated environments.
From the moment Craig shares his story about discovering an electronic "buzz in the line" during podcast recordings, we recognize our own experience - that persistent, low-grade distractedness that characterizes modern professional life. His recently published book "Digital Overwhelm" tackles this universal challenge with refreshing honesty and practical wisdom.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Craig's balanced perspective. He acknowledges the genuine difficulty of managing our digital lives while offering hope through "communicational flexibility" - developing multiple approaches to workplace technologies rather than relying on a single rigid strategy. Drawing from extensive interviews with millennial and Gen Z professionals, Craig provides insights that benefit everyone from tech-native youth to baby boomers feeling left behind by rapid technological change.
The discussion takes fascinating turns as we explore parenting in digital spaces, helping older professionals adapt to technological shifts, and finding the right relationship with emerging AI tools. Craig's recommendation to "be the human in the loop" with artificial intelligence accredited by author Ethan Mollick, addresses one of today's most pressing workplace concerns with practical, actionable advice.
Whether you're struggling with email overload, concerned about your children's screen time, or wondering how to integrate AI into your professional life without losing your humanity, this episode offers both validation and strategies to move forward. As Craig wisely suggests, try treating digital communication as a gift - an opportunity to slow down, be mindful, and connect authentically despite the technological barriers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the let's Think About it podcast, where we
embark on a journey ofthoughtfulness and personal
growth.
I'm your host, Coach Mo, andI'm here to guide you through
thought-promoting discussionsthat will inspire you to unlock
your full potential.
In each episode, we'll explorea wide range of topics, from
self-discovery and mindfulnessto goal-setting and achieving
(00:33):
success.
Together, we'll challengeconventional thinking and dive
deep into the realms ofpossibility.
Whether you're looking to findclarity in your personal or
professional life, or seekingstrategies to overcome obstacles
, this podcast is your go-tosource for insightful
conversations and practicaladvice.
So find a comfortable spot,chill and let's embark on this
(00:57):
journey of self-improvementtogether.
Remember, the power oftransformation lies within you,
and together we'll uncover thetools and insights you need to
make it happen.
So let's dive in.
Welcome to another episode ofthe let's Think About it podcast
(01:20):
.
I'm your host, Coach Mo, andI'm here with another amazing
guest.
His name is Craig Mattson.
Craig, my man, what's good,buddy?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Oh man, what's good is it's probably warmer where
you are than it is where I am.
I think it's nine degrees herein Grand Rapids.
What's it for you?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I think we're at 55 here.
That sounds livable.
Wait, where did you say you'relocated?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The cold, frozen Midwest.
Right now Grand Rapids,Michigan.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Grand Rapids, michigan, born and raised.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I am born and raised in Michigan, but I grew up on
the southeast side of the statein a little town called Adrian,
between Toledo, ohio and Detroit.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So you're a Midwest guy to heart?
Yeah, you got it.
That's nice, man, that's nice.
So tell us who you are, whatyou do, the value you bring to
people.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh, yes, okay, Thank you, coach Moe, for having me on
your show.
I'm really grateful to have aseat at your table.
So I am a writer, I'm a teacherand I'm a researcher.
So, as a writer, I justpublished a book called Digital
Overwhelm which I'm here, happyto talk about with you tonight
or today, whatever the time zoneis.
(02:38):
And I am also a professor, so Iteach communication and media
production at Calvin Universityin Grand Rapids and I am I'm a
researcher, I like to figurestuff out, so that's a big value
for me.
You ask what values I bringsense-making, figuring stuff out
(03:00):
, that's huge for me.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Professor, researcher , writer, in in this digital age
what are you researching andhow is this digital age
impacting our workforce?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I've looked into your work a bit and I've noticed
that you pay a lot of attentionto you're trying to help people
grow and develop and you helpthem deal with problems like and
I noticed this was somethingthat was listed in one of your
concerns the inner critics thatwe all have, the little strange
(03:33):
creature in our head that issaying you can't do it, man
Can't do it, woman Can't do it.
So a really quick story I'malso a podcaster, like you, as
who isn't?
These days, everybody seems tohave a podcast.
But I was listening, I wasediting a podcast and I kept
hearing this buzz.
I was like what?
I don't remember any problemsin the line when I was recording
(03:55):
with the guests or the otherparticipants in this podcast,
but there was this weirdpersistent buzz.
So I went to an engineer in thebuilding building and I was like
what is this?
And it takes some detectivework to figure it out.
But he said do you have anydevices that are right next to
your soundboard while you'rerecording?
I don't think so, but I'llcheck it out.
Sure enough, coach Mo, I had asmartphone sitting right next to
(04:19):
the soundboard and that littledevice created the buzz in the
line and I think for so manyworking professionals today.
Our smartphones, our socialmedia, our devices of all kinds
create a buzz in the line for us.
We're just like constantly.
We have this low gradedistractedness at all times, and
(04:40):
so I think my research has beentrying to make sense of those
kind of working conditions,whatever your organization or
company.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So what does that mean and what type of value do
you bring through your differenttypes of research that you do?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I hope that the value I'm bringing to people is
partially just awareness thatthey are digitally overwhelmed
we all are.
It's a part of life today, ahuge part of it.
So awareness is a huge thing.
I know that's important in yourwork too.
You're trying to help people beaware of some of the voices
inside their heads or some ofthe ways that they're shooting
(05:14):
themselves in the foot and waysthat they could grow and develop
, and I have similar ambitions.
My research has mostly paidattention to organizational
communities, to workingcommunities, and I've basically
been asking how is it that wecan have org communities where
(05:35):
people can stay human despiteall the digital overwhelm?
So I think that's a value I'mlooking for.
So how do you pursue that?
My book discusses six what Icall modes of communication,
modes of digital communication,and I try to show people like
what each mode is good at andthen maybe what it's not so good
(05:56):
at, and then to help them havemore than one available approach
to communication in workinglife today.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Okay, let's take a step back then with the book.
What's the name of it andwhat's that propelled you to
want to write a book and wentinto that process before we get
into this stuff?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Sure, yeah, it's a good question.
Why would anybody want to writea book?
It's just a pile of a lot ofwork.
It's a lot of loneliness and alot of I'm never going to get
this done.
Why did I even start this?
Yeah, there's a lot of that,but I probably am a writer
because I'm a compulsivelanguage guy.
I really like language, Ireally like words and I like the
(06:37):
possibilities that open up whena book shows up in the world.
Who knows whose hands that'sgoing to show up in and what
kinds of relationships can open,even like the one we're having
right now.
I could never predict it.
I got into this project in themiddle of the pandemic and I
started randomly podcasting withformer students, kind of a
(06:58):
check-in.
I was a little bored.
I was like what's going on foryou, how are things going?
And the stories they started totell me about working life were
stunning and I said, oh my gosh, I got to open a study on this
and that's how this book began.
I interviewed dozens of risingprofessionals among Gen Z and
millennial working folk andasked them how they were coping,
(07:20):
how they were dealing with allthe intensities of the time, and
this book sprang out of that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Wow, what's the name of the book?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Digital Overwhelm.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Digital Overwhelm yeah, Wow, Okay.
When I hear that title DigitalOverwhelm I'm thinking there's
too much social media, TV,smartphones, everything's coming
at me.
How do I navigate and get backto the roots of how I was raised
without all of this, but stillcan use it by my choice, but
(07:49):
able to navigate how I once didnavigate?
And how do I cope with theoverwhelming feelings that I
experience with all of thistechnology that's being
bombarded into my awareness thatI'm trying to resist?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Is that a?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
good assessment.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, it sure is.
That's great, you've named it,you've named the predicament
we're all feeling.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Okay, okay.
So with your research, whatdoes that look like in how you
help people overcome theoverwhelming feeling in this
digital space that we've sooften experienced?
What does that research looklike for the product?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yes.
So I think one of the takeawaysfrom this research is it's okay
to be overwhelmed.
We should just face up to thefact that it is too much what
you just described.
There's nobody who can finesseall of that and master it and
look cool in the process.
It is just a lot, and so that'sa takeaway for me.
(08:51):
Just frankly admit, yeah, thisis more than I can easily manage
.
Maybe also some sense of hopeand the in the possibilities of
connection with other people.
Even I love the way yourpodcast like slows us down a bit
and we just take this time totalk.
(09:15):
Let's think about it, man, we'rethinking about it.
Let's think about it.
When do we ever do that?
When do we ever just stop andsay, yeah, what is going on here
?
So I think that's one thing,and then I think another way to
put like a takeaway from myresearch is cultivate
communicational flexibility.
Communicational flexibilityDon't get stuck in a particular
(09:36):
way of interacting and thinkit's this way or it's no way.
So my book is exploring six atleast ways of practicing
communication in the workplacein digital spaces, and so
flexibility is a big one for me.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Now, this is a good conversation because I think,
working in a hybrid remotesetting my phone, it's like
right here, it's right here, andI'm easily distracted when a
notification comes in, I just oh, okay, yeah, the constant
negativity through the socialmedia, the politics and things
(10:12):
that's happening right now inpolitics, right, and the me's,
all of these different type ofcomments, it consistently
popping up, whether it's on myphone, whether it's on the
tracker meter at the bottom ofyour TV.
It's always something and I'mjust being bombarded Through
your research and you've doneyou work in this space.
(10:34):
How do you help people overcomethat?
How do you help people get backto put the phone down, break
away from that, go back to yourroots.
Let's step away from theelectronics.
What do you do to help peoplein that sense?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
One of the first things I do in this book is to
offer some historicalperspective.
We're not the first people inhuman history to be overwhelmed
by technological change.
So this is going to soundstrange, but even 2,500 years
ago there was a late-breakingtechnology that made people very
nervous the way artificialintelligence makes many of us
(11:12):
very nervous today and it wascalled a pen, a writing
implement, and the philosopherPlato wrote about writing and
how uneasy he was as he thoughtabout what writing would do to
learning, to conversation, tothinking.
Let's think about it.
(11:33):
He was uneasy about that.
He wasn't alone.
So we're not the first peopleto deal with technological
change.
But the second thing that I tryto help people do is to sit back
and think about their goals abit, especially in the workplace
.
You want to be with otherhumans, what kind of
(12:00):
organizational community are youreally hoping and anchoring for
?
And those sort of diagnosticquestions then lead me into the
particular gifts and challengesof each mode of communication.
So I can't give you like ageneralized answer, because the
wisdom that you need for a Zoomconversation like we're having
(12:22):
right now is different from thewisdom you need for an email
interchange or a text chat or aSlack message or what to do when
your technology breaks down,which it does all the time.
So what I do in my book is Itry to explore different digital
spaces where we find ourselves.
(12:43):
I isolate them a little bit andsay let's think about this
particular space for a littlewhile.
And how can we stay human inour inboxes, and how can we stay
human in the Microsoft Teamsmeeting and so forth?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
How can I stay human when using technology?
How can I help my kids remainhuman when they were born, into
this age where we pick up thephone and we look at the phones,
where kids don't want to gooutside and play football,
basketball at the park.
They rather sit on their phoneand connect with their friends
(13:21):
through text messaging and appsand things like that.
As parents, how do we helpnormalize our kid from the
digital age for just smallsegments of time?
What?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I love about your question is that you're
recognizing we're not just onething right.
We're always multiple things.
We're professionals, but we'realso colleagues, we're also
friends, we're also neighbors,we're also parents many of us
and so each of those vocationsbring with it their own sort of
questions and challenges, andthe parenting one is really hard
(13:56):
.
I was interviewing people whowere talking about their
workspaces, but it wasinteresting how often kids came
up, how often not so much amongthe Gen Z people I was talking
to, but certainly among themillennial professionals.
Yeah, digital life and childrenit's a complex intersection.
I think your advice to gooutside and play is a great one,
(14:18):
and I think the good news isthat many young people today are
I don't know I'm hearing rumorsof this that they're just
getting fed up with social media.
It's just it's bringing a lotof nastiness into their streams
of consciousness, and I've seenthis with my own kids as well,
that there's sometimes drawingharder lines.
I'm just not going to do thatsort of lines.
(14:42):
So that gives me some hope.
Like, sometimes the kids justfigure this stuff out.
They're like they figure outwhat's good for them and what's
not, certainly with mentoringand guidance too.
But the other thing I would doas a parent, when your kids
don't seem to be like drawingthose boundaries in good ways
ways, is just to ask what areyou doing with that, what do you
(15:03):
use that for?
And then I think, as you hearthem reflect, you can have a
better sense of how to interveneon their overuse of tech.
But even better if you can getthem to talk about what they're
doing with the media, or whatthey think they're doing with
the social media or the digitalmedia.
It just gets them to hear itthemselves, gets them to be
(15:24):
reflective and mindful, which isfinally what we want from our
kids.
We want them to be more aware,more mindful of what they're
trying to do, what they want todo.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Do you want to push back on that at all?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
No, no, no.
As you were talking, anotherthought came up on the other
spectrum.
Yeah, I'm going to go to theworkplace, I'm going to go to
the space of being a baby boomer.
Okay, I've been in my role forthe past 15, 20 years.
Technology is changing.
Oh my God.
How can I keep up?
I can't keep up.
This is nuts.
Why, why can't this slow down?
What is it going to do for mybusiness?
Things like that.
How do you approach it fromthat lens?
(16:05):
To help someone in thatoverwhelming feeling as a leader
now, feeling that they can'tkeep up with all the changes in
technology?
What do I do?
How do I navigate this?
Does your book offer insights?
Do how do I navigate this?
Does your book offer insights?
Examples around thatperspective.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I wrote the book as a Gen Xer and I really thought
that I was doing this researchand it would be about other
people.
I thought this would be aboutthose people that I'm
interviewing or those peoplethat I'm talking to, that I'm
meeting in coffee shops with ortalking to on a Zoom call, and
it turned out Coach that I was.
(16:42):
I don't know.
It was about me too.
So I appreciate your question.
There were points where Ireally wanted to do this
research in order to escapedigital overwhelm and I found I
couldn't do that.
No, I'm in the midst of it,like the people I was
interviewing.
So that's why I like yourquestion so much.
I think it's important to saywe're all in this, even those of
(17:03):
us who remember a time beforethe smartphone, or remember a
time when we only had a flipphone or only a landline.
Even we with that sort ofcomplex perspective still face
this.
I guess for older readers ofthe book, who I would love to
have managers say I'm trying tofigure the kids out these days,
(17:24):
so I'm going to read that book Ithink that would be great.
But for those people I wouldsay two things.
One, listen to your Gen Zs,listen to your millennial
professionals, see what they'rethinking, Consult with them, ask
their advice, ask what sensethey're making of things.
By pulling people into theorganizational conversation and
(17:44):
somewhat even into thedecision-making of your
organization, I think youempower them, you strengthen
them and you learn from them.
You learn from what they arenative to in ways that people
like you and me aren't exactlyso.
That's my first piece of adviceto an older reader or an older
leader in a company, and I thinkmy second one is going to sound
(18:05):
similar to what I said earlier,and that is you never really
stop needing yoga.
You always need to be flexible.
No matter how long you've beenin the business, you still need
flexibility because the groundconditions change under your
feet all the time, and sogetting good at cognitive and
maybe literal yoga andrelational yoga, being able to
(18:26):
stretch and bend and be suppleand flexible I don't know like
old age still requires it orolder age still requires that
sort of flexibility.
So I think that's my secondrecommendation Do some yoga.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, no, that's great.
I was thinking, as you weretalking, being a coach that I am
, and someone came to me andthat was a topic that came up.
The first space that I wouldtake them is through
self-awareness, right andmeaning.
Let's acknowledge youruncomfortability, the
overwhelming feelings that youhave around this digital space.
You're not the only one thatfeels that way.
(19:01):
Let's acknowledge that right.
And then the next thing isacceptance.
You don't like it.
It's okay to feel the way thatyou feel in this moment around
the digital space.
Anyone who's been through theway that you've been through in
your life would probably feelexactly the same way that you
feel it's all good, right, yeah.
(19:21):
Then the next question I askwhat steps do we need to take to
move forward past thisemotional feeling that you have
towards digital age?
What actions need to take place?
Yeah, so now it's not so mucharound the frustration that I'm
feeling about the digital agethat I'm in Now.
I'm thinking what are thepossibilities in a desire space
(19:46):
and how I can live in thisdigital space, and that's a
coaching approach in which Iwould take someone through that
frustration and feeling, Becausewhen you have that, people want
to normalize their situationand in that moment of feeling
frustrated that I'm being leftbehind in this digital age, I
feel as though I'm the only onethat's being left behind and I
(20:10):
carry that burden right.
And so the acknowledgementaspect is just, it's okay, you
have a right to feel exactly howyou're feeling.
No one walks your shoes the wayyou walk your shoes.
It's just, it's okay.
You have a right to feelexactly how you're feeling.
No one walks your shoes the wayyou walk your shoes.
It's all good, get it out.
That's the next steps, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Your story, or your coaching approach, reminds me of
something I heard from one ofmy interviewees, and he happened
to be working on a UPS floor,like a warehouse floor, so he
was talking about his experienceof technological breakdown,
like when things don't work,which happens a lot, and he said
that there are sometimesexternal expectations placed on
(20:50):
him because he's a guy, becauseof his gender, and he said it
didn't necessarily make anysense because he's not.
Nobody is completely competentwith every tool that gets put in
front of them, right, butsometimes people just would
expect him to be competent inways that nothing in his
background prepared him for, andfor me that's become a way, a
(21:12):
frame for a lot of people'sexperience.
I think we're expected to beable to do a lot of things and
we're all on this enormouslearning curve all the time.
So I think that's important togive yourself grace.
I think your coaching ishelping people to do that.
Acceptance yes, accept yourselfand the history that you have.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And I think also as you're learning new technology.
I think the frustrating pieceof it is, once you master a
certain technology, right whenyou feel you got it, you're
comfortable, something new comeson and you got to adjust again.
A cycle of continualadjustments that needs to be
(21:56):
made day in and day out.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, you've said it, You've absolutely said it, and
sometimes it just gets to be waytoo much.
I have, I do want to helppeople to be flexible, to be
self-accepting, to givethemselves grace and give other
people grace.
I think that's enormouslyimportant.
I think there's also a placefor protest and complaint,
because I don't know the peoplewho are designing this tech.
(22:18):
They don't usually consult withus.
They don't usually ask us if wewant some new development.
It just shows up and thensuddenly it becomes a mandate
that we all have to becomeproficient in this thing.
I don't know, coach, Likesometimes I just want to say no,
no, thanks.
I don't want that in my lifeand I wonder if organizationally
, if there might be.
I'm not talking about beingfrumpy and unwilling to change.
(22:42):
I'm just talking about sayinghow much change should we be
doing?
How much does our organizationactually need to fulfill its
mission and not just bringingsomething onto the table simply
because it's there?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Let me ask you this Through your experience what's
the buzz around chat, GPT andits impact in organizations?
What's that buzz looking likethrough your research?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, it feels like when you're at a pool party and
some really big guy comesrunning down the deck and jumps
into the pool and the water justsplashes everywhere.
That's what it's like right now.
We're all drenched by this bigcannonball that has landed in
the midst of our lives in thepast couple of years.
And I teach at a university andI don't know.
(23:27):
Some days I don't know what thehell I'm doing.
Like.
What does it mean to gradethings right now?
What does it mean to assignthings right now when a student
can copy and paste an assignmentdescription into a chat bot and
get a pretty decent piece ofwork in response?
So I guess I see a couple ofdifferent.
From my organizationalperspective, I see a couple of
(23:48):
different responses to AI.
On the one hand, you have thenever AI people who are really
resistant to it, who just hateit and wish it had never been
developed, and on the other endyou might have the sort of
techno-utopians like this isgoing to solve all of our
problems.
I don't see a lot of those at myuniversity, but I think the
people I like to hang out withare those who accept artificial
(24:12):
intelligence as a given in ourtime and ask how can we make a
space at our table for AI butnot give it the whole table at
the same time?
There's a guy I'd like to follow.
His name is Ethan Mollick andhe has written a book called
Co-Intelligence and he writesquite a lot about artificial
intelligence in the workplaceand one of his guidelines is be
(24:37):
the human in the loop.
So AI is going to be in theloop in your organization, it's
going to be there, but your joband the job of your team is to,
as much as possible, be thehuman.
Not just cede your tasks to AI,not just delegate all your
stuff to AI, but instead to sayI want to work with this,
whatever you want to call it,this technology, this large
(24:58):
language network, I wanted towork with this, this, whatever
you want to call it, thistechnology, this large language
network, I want to work with it,but there's still stuff that I
got to do, there's stillattention I have to pay and I'm
not going to give that up.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
What does that look like?
When you say work with it, isthere an approach outside of
just delegating tasks to chatGPT?
What else outside of that youmean by work with it?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, that's a $150,000 question.
I think I can.
I have a couple of ideas.
One thing I try to say topeople who I'm coaching about
this is don't give up the workof the first draft.
You really need the first draftof any project you're working
on.
You need that time ofbrainstorming, ideation
(25:43):
generation, creative work.
You need that in order to getthe project into your bones, and
if you just hand it over to AI,you'll miss out on some really
vital early development.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
But it's so easy to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Because AI can spit out the information.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I know, but then it's frustrating that we are
involved in all of this AI stuff, so it's a catch-22.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I know, I know, I feel it, coach, I feel it.
I think there are somesituations where I do ask AI to
generate something first, tohelp me to brainstorm about
something.
For instance, when I'm writingan introduction for a podcast, I
often will spend quite a longtime writing a prompt.
There are four hosts in thispodcast.
Here's the tone of the podcast.
Here's what we're talking about.
(26:32):
Here's our tagline.
Would you give me a two-minutescript and then I go through
that script?
Oh my gosh, in some ways it'sbrilliant.
It does a lot of the kind ofdistribution of the script to
the various hosts.
That's really handy.
But the tone is usually off.
(26:53):
The vocabulary is usually notsuper helpful, which might be my
fault.
I might need to make a betterprompt.
But there's another danger andthat is.
Ethan Mollick talks about notfalling asleep at the wheel.
I think with collaborating withAI, whether you do the first
draft or AI does the first draft, you can't fall asleep because
artificial intelligence will.
It's a pleaser.
It really wants to please you,it really wants to guess at what
(27:14):
you want and to give you that,and sometimes it will
hallucinate in order to do that.
It will just make stuff up andsometimes it will be too
affirming of your ideas.
So yeah, don't fall asleep atthe wheel.
Keep questioning it, keepthinking with it, keep up all
those critical processes.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Thank you for that.
As we get ready to close out,any lasting thoughts that you
would like to share with theaudience.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I think one final thought that really came to me
in working on the problem ofemail overload, which is a
perennial problem for a lot ofprofessionals, is that, as often
as you can treat digitalcommunication with another human
as a gift, as often as you canI don't think you can do that
all the time.
I don't think every email youoh goodness, not every email,
(28:01):
but maybe every fifth email youcan just step back and, as your
podcast encourages, let's thinkabout it.
Let's give this some time andsome mindfulness, let me slow
down, and I think not just anemail, but in any kind of
communication that we'repracticing in a digital space
yeah, to just say maybe this isan opportunity to sit back for a
(28:22):
moment and be the human, andone way to do that is just to
recognize the gift that comeswith this, and this conversation
has been a gift to me, coach.
It's been good to slow down andjust think about what's going
on in our digital workspaceswith you, and so this podcast
itself is a gift.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much, but beforewe jump off the listeners, find
your book.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
As they say, it's available wherever books are
sold.
You can also check out mywebsite, which is the Mode
Switch.
So that's the word the ModeM-O-D-E and the word switch all
one wordcom, the mode switchcom.
You can find my writtenmaterials there and other ways
(29:06):
to connect with me, and I wouldlove to connect with your any of
your listeners.
That would be a real joy to me.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
There it is, everyone there it is.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate you, Craig.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yes, I'm grateful for this time coach.
I hope you keep up your goodwork.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate you, craig.
Yes, I'm grateful for this timecoach.
I hope you keep up your goodwork.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Have a great day.
Thank you for joining me inthis episode of let's Think
About it.
Your time and attention aregreatly appreciated.
If you found value in today'sdiscussion, I encourage you to
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platform.
Remember, the journey ofself-improvement is ongoing and
(29:40):
I'm here to support you everystep of the way.
Connect with me on social mediafor updates and insights.
You can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Coach Mo
Coaching, or LinkedIn at MauriceMabry, or visit my website at
mauricemabrycom for exclusivecontent.
Until next time, keepreflecting, keep growing and,
(30:05):
most importantly, keep believingin yourself.
Remember, the most effectiveway to do it is to do it
Together.
We're making incredible stridestoward a better and more
empowered you.
So thank you and I'll empoweredyou.
So thank you and I'll see youin our next episode.
Welcome to the let's Think About it podcast, where we
embark on a journey ofthoughtfulness and personal
growth.
I'm your host, Coach Mo, andI'm here to guide you through
thought-promoting discussionsthat will inspire you to unlock
your full potential.
In each episode, we'll explorea wide range of topics, from
self-discovery and mindfulnessto goal-setting and achieving
(00:33):
success.
Together, we'll challengeconventional thinking and dive
deep into the realms ofpossibility.
Whether you're looking to findclarity in your personal or
professional life, or seekingstrategies to overcome obstacles
, this podcast is your go-tosource for insightful
conversations and practicaladvice.
So find a comfortable spot,chill and let's embark on this
(00:57):
journey of self-improvementtogether.
Remember, the power oftransformation lies within you,
and together we'll uncover thetools and insights you need to
make it happen.
So let's dive in.
Welcome to another episode ofthe let's Think About it podcast
(01:20):
.
I'm your host, Coach Mo, andI'm here with another amazing
guest.
His name is Craig Mattson.
Craig, my man, what's good,buddy?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Oh man, what's good is it's probably warmer where
you are than it is where I am.
I think it's nine degrees herein Grand Rapids.
What's it for you?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I think we're at 55 here.
That sounds livable.
Wait, where did you say you'relocated?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The cold, frozen Midwest.
Right now Grand Rapids,Michigan.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Grand Rapids, michigan, born and raised.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I am born and raised in Michigan, but I grew up on
the southeast side of the statein a little town called Adrian,
between Toledo, ohio and Detroit.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So you're a Midwest guy to heart?
Yeah, you got it.
That's nice, man, that's nice.
So tell us who you are, whatyou do, the value you bring to
people.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh, yes, okay, Thank you, coach Moe, for having me on
your show.
I'm really grateful to have aseat at your table.
So I am a writer, I'm a teacherand I'm a researcher.
So, as a writer, I justpublished a book called Digital
Overwhelm which I'm here, happyto talk about with you tonight
or today, whatever the time zoneis.
(02:38):
And I am also a professor, so Iteach communication and media
production at Calvin Universityin Grand Rapids and I am I'm a
researcher, I like to figurestuff out, so that's a big value
for me.
You ask what values I bringsense-making, figuring stuff out
(03:00):
, that's huge for me.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Professor, researcher , writer, in in this digital age
what are you researching andhow is this digital age
impacting our workforce?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I've looked into your work a bit and I've noticed
that you pay a lot of attentionto you're trying to help people
grow and develop and you helpthem deal with problems like and
I noticed this was somethingthat was listed in one of your
concerns the inner critics thatwe all have, the little strange
(03:33):
creature in our head that issaying you can't do it, man
Can't do it, woman Can't do it.
So a really quick story I'malso a podcaster, like you, as
who isn't?
These days, everybody seems tohave a podcast.
But I was listening, I wasediting a podcast and I kept
hearing this buzz.
I was like what?
I don't remember any problemsin the line when I was recording
(03:55):
with the guests or the otherparticipants in this podcast,
but there was this weirdpersistent buzz.
So I went to an engineer in thebuilding building and I was like
what is this?
And it takes some detectivework to figure it out.
But he said do you have anydevices that are right next to
your soundboard while you'rerecording?
I don't think so, but I'llcheck it out.
Sure enough, coach Mo, I had asmartphone sitting right next to
(04:19):
the soundboard and that littledevice created the buzz in the
line and I think for so manyworking professionals today.
Our smartphones, our socialmedia, our devices of all kinds
create a buzz in the line for us.
We're just like constantly.
We have this low gradedistractedness at all times, and
(04:40):
so I think my research has beentrying to make sense of those
kind of working conditions,whatever your organization or
company.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So what does that mean and what type of value do
you bring through your differenttypes of research that you do?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I hope that the value I'm bringing to people is
partially just awareness thatthey are digitally overwhelmed
we all are.
It's a part of life today, ahuge part of it.
So awareness is a huge thing.
I know that's important in yourwork too.
You're trying to help people beaware of some of the voices
inside their heads or some ofthe ways that they're shooting
(05:14):
themselves in the foot and waysthat they could grow and develop
, and I have similar ambitions.
My research has mostly paidattention to organizational
communities, to workingcommunities, and I've basically
been asking how is it that wecan have org communities where
(05:35):
people can stay human despiteall the digital overwhelm?
So I think that's a value I'mlooking for.
So how do you pursue that?
My book discusses six what Icall modes of communication,
modes of digital communication,and I try to show people like
what each mode is good at andthen maybe what it's not so good
(05:56):
at, and then to help them havemore than one available approach
to communication in workinglife today.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Okay, let's take a step back then with the book.
What's the name of it andwhat's that propelled you to
want to write a book and wentinto that process before we get
into this stuff?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Sure, yeah, it's a good question.
Why would anybody want to writea book?
It's just a pile of a lot ofwork.
It's a lot of loneliness and alot of I'm never going to get
this done.
Why did I even start this?
Yeah, there's a lot of that,but I probably am a writer
because I'm a compulsivelanguage guy.
I really like language, Ireally like words and I like the
(06:37):
possibilities that open up whena book shows up in the world.
Who knows whose hands that'sgoing to show up in and what
kinds of relationships can open,even like the one we're having
right now.
I could never predict it.
I got into this project in themiddle of the pandemic and I
started randomly podcasting withformer students, kind of a
(06:58):
check-in.
I was a little bored.
I was like what's going on foryou, how are things going?
And the stories they started totell me about working life were
stunning and I said, oh my gosh, I got to open a study on this
and that's how this book began.
I interviewed dozens of risingprofessionals among Gen Z and
millennial working folk andasked them how they were coping,
(07:20):
how they were dealing with allthe intensities of the time, and
this book sprang out of that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Wow, what's the name of the book?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Digital Overwhelm.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Digital Overwhelm yeah, Wow, Okay.
When I hear that title DigitalOverwhelm I'm thinking there's
too much social media, TV,smartphones, everything's coming
at me.
How do I navigate and get backto the roots of how I was raised
without all of this, but stillcan use it by my choice, but
(07:49):
able to navigate how I once didnavigate?
And how do I cope with theoverwhelming feelings that I
experience with all of thistechnology that's being
bombarded into my awareness thatI'm trying to resist?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Is that a?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
good assessment.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, it sure is.
That's great, you've named it,you've named the predicament
we're all feeling.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Okay, okay.
So with your research, whatdoes that look like in how you
help people overcome theoverwhelming feeling in this
digital space that we've sooften experienced?
What does that research looklike for the product?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yes.
So I think one of the takeawaysfrom this research is it's okay
to be overwhelmed.
We should just face up to thefact that it is too much what
you just described.
There's nobody who can finesseall of that and master it and
look cool in the process.
It is just a lot, and so that'sa takeaway for me.
(08:51):
Just frankly admit, yeah, thisis more than I can easily manage
.
Maybe also some sense of hopeand the in the possibilities of
connection with other people.
Even I love the way yourpodcast like slows us down a bit
and we just take this time totalk.
(09:15):
Let's think about it, man, we'rethinking about it.
Let's think about it.
When do we ever do that?
When do we ever just stop andsay, yeah, what is going on here
?
So I think that's one thing,and then I think another way to
put like a takeaway from myresearch is cultivate
communicational flexibility.
Communicational flexibilityDon't get stuck in a particular
(09:36):
way of interacting and thinkit's this way or it's no way.
So my book is exploring six atleast ways of practicing
communication in the workplacein digital spaces, and so
flexibility is a big one for me.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Now, this is a good conversation because I think,
working in a hybrid remotesetting my phone, it's like
right here, it's right here, andI'm easily distracted when a
notification comes in, I just oh, okay, yeah, the constant
negativity through the socialmedia, the politics and things
(10:12):
that's happening right now inpolitics, right, and the me's,
all of these different type ofcomments, it consistently
popping up, whether it's on myphone, whether it's on the
tracker meter at the bottom ofyour TV.
It's always something and I'mjust being bombarded Through
your research and you've doneyou work in this space.
(10:34):
How do you help people overcomethat?
How do you help people get backto put the phone down, break
away from that, go back to yourroots.
Let's step away from theelectronics.
What do you do to help peoplein that sense?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
One of the first things I do in this book is to
offer some historicalperspective.
We're not the first people inhuman history to be overwhelmed
by technological change.
So this is going to soundstrange, but even 2,500 years
ago there was a late-breakingtechnology that made people very
nervous the way artificialintelligence makes many of us
(11:12):
very nervous today and it wascalled a pen, a writing
implement, and the philosopherPlato wrote about writing and
how uneasy he was as he thoughtabout what writing would do to
learning, to conversation, tothinking.
Let's think about it.
(11:33):
He was uneasy about that.
He wasn't alone.
So we're not the first peopleto deal with technological
change.
But the second thing that I tryto help people do is to sit back
and think about their goals abit, especially in the workplace
.
You want to be with otherhumans, what kind of
(12:00):
organizational community are youreally hoping and anchoring for
?
And those sort of diagnosticquestions then lead me into the
particular gifts and challengesof each mode of communication.
So I can't give you like ageneralized answer, because the
wisdom that you need for a Zoomconversation like we're having
(12:22):
right now is different from thewisdom you need for an email
interchange or a text chat or aSlack message or what to do when
your technology breaks down,which it does all the time.
So what I do in my book is Itry to explore different digital
spaces where we find ourselves.
(12:43):
I isolate them a little bit andsay let's think about this
particular space for a littlewhile.
And how can we stay human inour inboxes, and how can we stay
human in the Microsoft Teamsmeeting and so forth?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
How can I stay human when using technology?
How can I help my kids remainhuman when they were born, into
this age where we pick up thephone and we look at the phones,
where kids don't want to gooutside and play football,
basketball at the park.
They rather sit on their phoneand connect with their friends
(13:21):
through text messaging and appsand things like that.
As parents, how do we helpnormalize our kid from the
digital age for just smallsegments of time?
What?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I love about your question is that you're
recognizing we're not just onething right.
We're always multiple things.
We're professionals, but we'realso colleagues, we're also
friends, we're also neighbors,we're also parents many of us
and so each of those vocationsbring with it their own sort of
questions and challenges, andthe parenting one is really hard
(13:56):
.
I was interviewing people whowere talking about their
workspaces, but it wasinteresting how often kids came
up, how often not so much amongthe Gen Z people I was talking
to, but certainly among themillennial professionals.
Yeah, digital life and childrenit's a complex intersection.
I think your advice to gooutside and play is a great one,
(14:18):
and I think the good news isthat many young people today are
I don't know I'm hearing rumorsof this that they're just
getting fed up with social media.
It's just it's bringing a lotof nastiness into their streams
of consciousness, and I've seenthis with my own kids as well,
that there's sometimes drawingharder lines.
I'm just not going to do thatsort of lines.
(14:42):
So that gives me some hope.
Like, sometimes the kids justfigure this stuff out.
They're like they figure outwhat's good for them and what's
not, certainly with mentoringand guidance too.
But the other thing I would doas a parent, when your kids
don't seem to be like drawingthose boundaries in good ways
ways, is just to ask what areyou doing with that, what do you
(15:03):
use that for?
And then I think, as you hearthem reflect, you can have a
better sense of how to interveneon their overuse of tech.
But even better if you can getthem to talk about what they're
doing with the media, or whatthey think they're doing with
the social media or the digitalmedia.
It just gets them to hear itthemselves, gets them to be
(15:24):
reflective and mindful, which isfinally what we want from our
kids.
We want them to be more aware,more mindful of what they're
trying to do, what they want todo.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Do you want to push back on that at all?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
No, no, no.
As you were talking, anotherthought came up on the other
spectrum.
Yeah, I'm going to go to theworkplace, I'm going to go to
the space of being a baby boomer.
Okay, I've been in my role forthe past 15, 20 years.
Technology is changing.
Oh my God.
How can I keep up?
I can't keep up.
This is nuts.
Why, why can't this slow down?
What is it going to do for mybusiness?
Things like that.
How do you approach it fromthat lens?
(16:05):
To help someone in thatoverwhelming feeling as a leader
now, feeling that they can'tkeep up with all the changes in
technology?
What do I do?
How do I navigate this?
Does your book offer insights?
Do how do I navigate this?
Does your book offer insights?
Examples around thatperspective.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
I wrote the book as a Gen Xer and I really thought
that I was doing this researchand it would be about other
people.
I thought this would be aboutthose people that I'm
interviewing or those peoplethat I'm talking to, that I'm
meeting in coffee shops with ortalking to on a Zoom call, and
it turned out Coach that I was.
(16:42):
I don't know.
It was about me too.
So I appreciate your question.
There were points where Ireally wanted to do this
research in order to escapedigital overwhelm and I found I
couldn't do that.
No, I'm in the midst of it,like the people I was
interviewing.
So that's why I like yourquestion so much.
I think it's important to saywe're all in this, even those of
(17:03):
us who remember a time beforethe smartphone, or remember a
time when we only had a flipphone or only a landline.
Even we with that sort ofcomplex perspective still face
this.
I guess for older readers ofthe book, who I would love to
have managers say I'm trying tofigure the kids out these days,
(17:24):
so I'm going to read that book Ithink that would be great.
But for those people I wouldsay two things.
One, listen to your Gen Zs,listen to your millennial
professionals, see what they'rethinking, Consult with them, ask
their advice, ask what sensethey're making of things.
By pulling people into theorganizational conversation and
(17:44):
somewhat even into thedecision-making of your
organization, I think youempower them, you strengthen
them and you learn from them.
You learn from what they arenative to in ways that people
like you and me aren't exactlyso.
That's my first piece of adviceto an older reader or an older
leader in a company, and I thinkmy second one is going to sound
(18:05):
similar to what I said earlier,and that is you never really
stop needing yoga.
You always need to be flexible.
No matter how long you've beenin the business, you still need
flexibility because the groundconditions change under your
feet all the time, and sogetting good at cognitive and
maybe literal yoga andrelational yoga, being able to
(18:26):
stretch and bend and be suppleand flexible I don't know like
old age still requires it orolder age still requires that
sort of flexibility.
So I think that's my secondrecommendation Do some yoga.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, no, that's great.
I was thinking, as you weretalking, being a coach that I am
, and someone came to me andthat was a topic that came up.
The first space that I wouldtake them is through
self-awareness, right andmeaning.
Let's acknowledge youruncomfortability, the
overwhelming feelings that youhave around this digital space.
You're not the only one thatfeels that way.
(19:01):
Let's acknowledge that right.
And then the next thing isacceptance.
You don't like it.
It's okay to feel the way thatyou feel in this moment around
the digital space.
Anyone who's been through theway that you've been through in
your life would probably feelexactly the same way that you
feel it's all good, right, yeah.
(19:21):
Then the next question I askwhat steps do we need to take to
move forward past thisemotional feeling that you have
towards digital age?
What actions need to take place?
Yeah, so now it's not so mucharound the frustration that I'm
feeling about the digital agethat I'm in Now.
I'm thinking what are thepossibilities in a desire space
(19:46):
and how I can live in thisdigital space, and that's a
coaching approach in which Iwould take someone through that
frustration and feeling, Becausewhen you have that, people want
to normalize their situationand in that moment of feeling
frustrated that I'm being leftbehind in this digital age, I
feel as though I'm the only onethat's being left behind and I
(20:10):
carry that burden right.
And so the acknowledgementaspect is just, it's okay, you
have a right to feel exactly howyou're feeling.
No one walks your shoes the wayyou walk your shoes.
It's just, it's okay.
You have a right to feelexactly how you're feeling.
No one walks your shoes the wayyou walk your shoes.
It's all good, get it out.
That's the next steps, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Your story, or your coaching approach, reminds me of
something I heard from one ofmy interviewees, and he happened
to be working on a UPS floor,like a warehouse floor, so he
was talking about his experienceof technological breakdown,
like when things don't work,which happens a lot, and he said
that there are sometimesexternal expectations placed on
(20:50):
him because he's a guy, becauseof his gender, and he said it
didn't necessarily make anysense because he's not.
Nobody is completely competentwith every tool that gets put in
front of them, right, butsometimes people just would
expect him to be competent inways that nothing in his
background prepared him for, andfor me that's become a way, a
(21:12):
frame for a lot of people'sexperience.
I think we're expected to beable to do a lot of things and
we're all on this enormouslearning curve all the time.
So I think that's important togive yourself grace.
I think your coaching ishelping people to do that.
Acceptance yes, accept yourselfand the history that you have.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And I think also as you're learning new technology.
I think the frustrating pieceof it is, once you master a
certain technology, right whenyou feel you got it, you're
comfortable, something new comeson and you got to adjust again.
A cycle of continualadjustments that needs to be
(21:56):
made day in and day out.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, you've said it, You've absolutely said it, and
sometimes it just gets to be waytoo much.
I have, I do want to helppeople to be flexible, to be
self-accepting, to givethemselves grace and give other
people grace.
I think that's enormouslyimportant.
I think there's also a placefor protest and complaint,
because I don't know the peoplewho are designing this tech.
(22:18):
They don't usually consult withus.
They don't usually ask us if wewant some new development.
It just shows up and thensuddenly it becomes a mandate
that we all have to becomeproficient in this thing.
I don't know, coach, Likesometimes I just want to say no,
no, thanks.
I don't want that in my lifeand I wonder if organizationally
, if there might be.
I'm not talking about beingfrumpy and unwilling to change.
(22:42):
I'm just talking about sayinghow much change should we be
doing?
How much does our organizationactually need to fulfill its
mission and not just bringingsomething onto the table simply
because it's there?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Let me ask you this Through your experience what's
the buzz around chat, GPT andits impact in organizations?
What's that buzz looking likethrough your research?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, it feels like when you're at a pool party and
some really big guy comesrunning down the deck and jumps
into the pool and the water justsplashes everywhere.
That's what it's like right now.
We're all drenched by this bigcannonball that has landed in
the midst of our lives in thepast couple of years.
And I teach at a university andI don't know.
(23:27):
Some days I don't know what thehell I'm doing.
Like.
What does it mean to gradethings right now?
What does it mean to assignthings right now when a student
can copy and paste an assignmentdescription into a chat bot and
get a pretty decent piece ofwork in response?
So I guess I see a couple ofdifferent.
From my organizationalperspective, I see a couple of
(23:48):
different responses to AI.
On the one hand, you have thenever AI people who are really
resistant to it, who just hateit and wish it had never been
developed, and on the other endyou might have the sort of
techno-utopians like this isgoing to solve all of our
problems.
I don't see a lot of those at myuniversity, but I think the
people I like to hang out withare those who accept artificial
(24:12):
intelligence as a given in ourtime and ask how can we make a
space at our table for AI butnot give it the whole table at
the same time?
There's a guy I'd like to follow.
His name is Ethan Mollick andhe has written a book called
Co-Intelligence and he writesquite a lot about artificial
intelligence in the workplaceand one of his guidelines is be
(24:37):
the human in the loop.
So AI is going to be in theloop in your organization, it's
going to be there, but your joband the job of your team is to,
as much as possible, be thehuman.
Not just cede your tasks to AI,not just delegate all your
stuff to AI, but instead to sayI want to work with this,
whatever you want to call it,this technology, this large
(24:58):
language network, I wanted towork with this, this, whatever
you want to call it, thistechnology, this large language
network, I want to work with it,but there's still stuff that I
got to do, there's stillattention I have to pay and I'm
not going to give that up.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
What does that look like?
When you say work with it, isthere an approach outside of
just delegating tasks to chatGPT?
What else outside of that youmean by work with it?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, that's a $150,000 question.
I think I can.
I have a couple of ideas.
One thing I try to say topeople who I'm coaching about
this is don't give up the workof the first draft.
You really need the first draftof any project you're working
on.
You need that time ofbrainstorming, ideation
(25:43):
generation, creative work.
You need that in order to getthe project into your bones, and
if you just hand it over to AI,you'll miss out on some really
vital early development.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
But it's so easy to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Because AI can spit out the information.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I know, but then it's frustrating that we are
involved in all of this AI stuff, so it's a catch-22.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I know, I know, I feel it, coach, I feel it.
I think there are somesituations where I do ask AI to
generate something first, tohelp me to brainstorm about
something.
For instance, when I'm writingan introduction for a podcast, I
often will spend quite a longtime writing a prompt.
There are four hosts in thispodcast.
Here's the tone of the podcast.
Here's what we're talking about.
(26:32):
Here's our tagline.
Would you give me a two-minutescript and then I go through
that script?
Oh my gosh, in some ways it'sbrilliant.
It does a lot of the kind ofdistribution of the script to
the various hosts.
That's really handy.
But the tone is usually off.
(26:53):
The vocabulary is usually notsuper helpful, which might be my
fault.
I might need to make a betterprompt.
But there's another danger andthat is.
Ethan Mollick talks about notfalling asleep at the wheel.
I think with collaborating withAI, whether you do the first
draft or AI does the first draft, you can't fall asleep because
artificial intelligence will.
It's a pleaser.
It really wants to please you,it really wants to guess at what
(27:14):
you want and to give you that,and sometimes it will
hallucinate in order to do that.
It will just make stuff up andsometimes it will be too
affirming of your ideas.
So yeah, don't fall asleep atthe wheel.
Keep questioning it, keepthinking with it, keep up all
those critical processes.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Thank you for that.
As we get ready to close out,any lasting thoughts that you
would like to share with theaudience.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I think one final thought that really came to me
in working on the problem ofemail overload, which is a
perennial problem for a lot ofprofessionals, is that, as often
as you can treat digitalcommunication with another human
as a gift, as often as you canI don't think you can do that
all the time.
I don't think every email youoh goodness, not every email,
(28:01):
but maybe every fifth email youcan just step back and, as your
podcast encourages, let's thinkabout it.
Let's give this some time andsome mindfulness, let me slow
down, and I think not just anemail, but in any kind of
communication that we'repracticing in a digital space
yeah, to just say maybe this isan opportunity to sit back for a
(28:22):
moment and be the human, andone way to do that is just to
recognize the gift that comeswith this, and this conversation
has been a gift to me, coach.
It's been good to slow down andjust think about what's going
on in our digital workspaceswith you, and so this podcast
itself is a gift.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much, but beforewe jump off the listeners, find
your book.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
As they say, it's available wherever books are
sold.
You can also check out mywebsite, which is the Mode
Switch.
So that's the word the ModeM-O-D-E and the word switch all
one wordcom, the mode switchcom.
You can find my writtenmaterials there and other ways
(29:06):
to connect with me, and I wouldlove to connect with your any of
your listeners.
That would be a real joy to me.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
There it is, everyone there it is.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate you, Craig.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yes, I'm grateful for this time coach.
I hope you keep up your goodwork.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate you, craig.
Yes, I'm grateful for this timecoach.
I hope you keep up your goodwork.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Have a great day.
Thank you for joining me inthis episode of let's Think
About it.
Your time and attention aregreatly appreciated.
If you found value in today'sdiscussion, I encourage you to
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platform.
Remember, the journey ofself-improvement is ongoing and
(29:40):
I'm here to support you everystep of the way.
Connect with me on social mediafor updates and insights.
You can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Coach Mo
Coaching, or LinkedIn at MauriceMabry, or visit my website at
mauricemabrycom for exclusivecontent.
Until next time, keepreflecting, keep growing and,
(30:05):
most importantly, keep believingin yourself.
Remember, the most effectiveway to do it is to do it
Together.
We're making incredible stridestoward a better and more
empowered you.
So thank you and I'll empoweredyou.
So thank you and I'll see youin our next episode.
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