April 29, 2025 • 29 mins
Tom Emery joins Coach Mo to explore how leadership coaching helps executives and entrepreneurs overcome the discomfort that holds them back from reaching their full potential. As a People Performance Consultant with 20+ years of HR and leadership development experience, Tom blends executive coaching, leadership consulting, and business coaching strategies to help leaders navigate difficult conversations and build resilience.
The conversation unpacks how our natural tendency to avoid discomfort creates barriers to effective leadership. Tom shares his OI4C framework — Observe, Impact, and one of four C’s (Curious, Change, Continue, or Challenge) — a powerful leadership coaching tool used by leadership consultants and executive coaches to transform confrontation into constructive dialogue. This approach is critical in cultures where politeness often overshadows direct feedback.
Coach Mo and Tom dive deep into mindset coaching concepts, distinguishing between the limiting inner critic and the empowering inner coach. Leaders operating from fear, frustration, or depletion often lead reactively instead of intentionally — an issue that leadership coaching programs directly address. Tom offers a compassionate yet practical approach to managing your protective inner voice while pushing for necessary personal and professional growth.
Drawing from the aviation principle “put your own mask on first,” Tom reinforces that leadership development isn’t optional; it’s essential. Leaders must prioritize their own professional development to sustain the energy, vision, and decision-making power needed to lead others effectively.
If you’re serious about executive leadership coaching, personal development, and growing through discomfort, this episode is packed with real-world coaching strategies for leaders, entrepreneurs, and executives. Learn how coaching leadership practices and leadership development programs can help you improve feedback skills, overcome limiting beliefs, and get out of your own way to lead with greater purpose and impact.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the let's Think About it podcast, where we
embark on a journey ofthoughtfulness and personal
growth.
I'm your host, coach Mo, andI'm here to guide you through
thought-promoting discussionsthat will inspire you to unlock
your full potential.
In each episode, we'll explorea wide range of topics, from
self-discovery and mindfulnessto goal-setting and achieving
(00:33):
success.
Together, we'll challengeconventional thinking and dive
deep into the realms ofpossibility.
Whether you're looking to findclarity in your personal or
professional life, or seekingstrategies to overcome obstacles
, this podcast is your go-tosource for insightful
conversations and practicaladvice.
So find a comfortable spot,chill and let's embark on this
(00:57):
journey of self-improvementtogether.
Remember, the power oftransformation lies within you,
and together we'll uncover thetools and insights you need to
make it happen.
So let's dive in.
Welcome to another episode ofthe let's Think About it podcast
(01:20):
.
I'm your host, coach Mo, andI'm here with another amazing
guest.
His name is Tom Emery.
Tom, what's good, brother?
Hey Mo, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's good to be here, I'm awesome man, I'm awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
First question where are you checking in from?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I'm checking in from a place called Litchfield.
It's a little town in theMidlands of the UK.
It's not far from Birmingham.
What's?
One great thing about the areaand region of the UK that you
live in got a Roman settlementquite near the ruins of a Roman
(02:03):
settlement.
So what's that?
2,000 years old, we have anincredible cathedral, massive
cathedral that was started inthe 12th century, but it's
pretty much bang in the middleof the UK, so it's one of the
furthest places from the seafrom the ocean that you can be
(02:30):
in the UK, but it means you canget anywhere within a couple of
hours.
So tell my audience who you are,what you do and the type of
value you bring.
I am a people performanceconsultant.
I do a little bit of lots ofdifferent things, but I'm
basically about helping peopleto reach their full potential in
life and work, so my backgroundis in human resources.
I worked in human resources forabout 20 odd years before I
started my own business, helpingother people do a mix of
(02:54):
coaching some team coaching,some team effectiveness work and
some broader leadershipdevelopment and I'm really
passionate about that.
I'm passionate about helpingpeople to lean into some of the
discomfort of trying new thingsand making brave change so that
they can make the most ofthemselves.
(03:15):
I love what I do.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Take me through your process of like how did you
arrive into consulting?
What Was it something thattriggered you in your life, that
propelled you into leadershipand consulting?
What was that?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I come from a family, quite a big family, and my mom
in particular has a real passionfor helping people and she was
a role model for me as I grew upand I watched her put herself
out, you know, really go out ofher way to help people.
So if you do a psychometric onme, you'll find that I'm very
strong on altruism, very strongon that sort of affiliation and
(03:55):
wanting to yeah, to supportother people.
And I went into my career inhuman resources because, like
lots of people who go into humanresources, I went into it
because I wanted to work withpeople.
I liked people.
Unfortunately, sometimes whenyou're in human resources people
, when they're not at their best, you might be in a process
(04:16):
where they're getting mayberedundant or they're getting
fired or they're in adisciplinary situation.
And I suppose I spent a longtime working with different
people and I realized after abit that the bits that I really
enjoyed were the bits where Iwas helping people and I was
passionate about and not so muchthe sitting in long meetings
talking about people risk orsitting in those restructure
(04:38):
meetings where we were thinkingabout how many people we were
going to lay off.
So I thought I would follow mypassions, and that's where the
idea for the business came from.
And yeah, it's gone fromstrength to strength.
I've been able to work withlots of different people from
lots of different walks of lifeand different organizations, not
only to help them practicallythrough coaching or through team
(05:01):
development, but also throughcoming up with my own insights
and my own frameworks.
I also recently published abook as well, called People
Reach your Full Potential as aChief HR Officer, which is
really to help people who are insenior HR jobs to do the job
really well and be reallymaximum in terms of their impact
(05:21):
.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's great, man.
Before we tap into your book,let's talk about your
methodological approach tohelping people.
You focus on leadership.
Is that correct?
Yeah, okay, and what's yourtypical approach and your
methodology approach to helpingthese leaders?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, well, I think it starts from a place of
curiosity really, and reallymeeting leaders where they are.
So when I observe leaders, lotsof leaders know what to do, like
they know how to lead well, butsomething stops them from
leaning into some of thediscomfort and the difficult
bits of leadership, and thatmight be around.
(06:04):
They might struggle withconflict or they might struggle
with relationships, and mymethodology really is to first
of all really get to know themand go deep with them in terms
of where they are, what theirchallenges are and what might be
stopping them, what thebarriers might be, and then we
really get into what's going on.
I challenge them on where theycan do things different, and one
of the things that I alwaystalk on I challenge them on
where they can do thingsdifferent and one of the things
(06:27):
that I always talk about when Imeet with leaders, when I'm
getting to know new clients andwhen clients are deciding
whether we're a good fit to worktogether, is that I can do the
soft stuff, I can create thesafe space, but I'm really all
about results at the end of theday and I will challenge and I
will call things out thatperhaps feel a bit crunchy and a
bit uncomfortable, but that'sall in service of the client,
(06:51):
getting what they need and beingable to make real tangible
process.
So I always think, yeah, don'tcome to me if you just want
someone to tell you what youwant to hear.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I'm gonna give you the hard message to help you
make some positive change, helpmy audience understand this
right because I'm going to giveyou the hard message to help you
make some positive change, Helpmy audience understand this
right Because I'm a coach.
And then you said you have aconsultancy practice.
What's the difference?
Why would someone see aconsultant over a coach or vice
(07:20):
versa?
Or can you do bothsimultaneously?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question,
mo, because I think when you'retraining to be a coach, you are
trained to not give advice,you're trained to listen, you're
trained to encourage the clientto come up with their own
solutions and to really buildthose solutions themselves.
For me, the way I work withclients is it's a bit more
(07:49):
situational.
So I think, in answer to yourquestion, I think you can be
both, but I think you have to bevery clear when you are one or
the other.
I would say when I'm workingwith clients, I'm probably 50,
60% of the time I am a purecoach, in that I'm listening to
them, I'm asking them curiousquestions, I'm challenging back,
I'm playing back what I'mhearing, I'm asking about their
(08:12):
assumptions and whether whatthey're saying is true.
But the other probably 40percent, I might be bringing in
some of my expertise, becauseusually that's what the client
is asking for from me.
They're not coming to me as apure.
They're coming to me becauseI've got a slightly different
take on things.
Maybe I've got an executivebackground, I've done some of
the big jobs in organizationswhich mean that perhaps I can
(08:35):
give a bit of context.
But I think there's a dangerthere right, there's a risk, and
so if that's happening, thenthat's always done very
purposefully and make it clearto the client that this might be
a bit of direction, a bit oftraining, a bit of advice and
not just pure coaching.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So what I hear is from a consultancy standpoint.
You're more of an advisor.
You're giving them specificdirection of how to overcome or
move towards a specific outcomethat they need help in, Whereas
coaching the client is thedriver of that and you're asking
questions, or we're askingquestions because I'm a coach to
(09:16):
help guide them through theirown self-discovery to make that,
to reach that desired outcome.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, I wouldn't say I was that directional.
So I think where the advicecomes in is offering up
frameworks for the client tothen use to implement themselves
.
For example, a framework that Ideveloped that I use a lot is
called the OI4C framework, andthis is really a framework for
(09:45):
having lots of differentconversations that might feel a
little bit difficult.
I give them a framework thatthey can make their own.
So if you take the OI4Cframework, the O stands for
observe, so it's really what areyou observing in this situation
?
The I stands for impact what'sthe impact?
And then you choose one of thefour c's, and the first c is
curious.
(10:06):
So what questions have you gotabout the situation?
And the next one is change.
So what would you like tochange about the situation?
The third one is continue whatmight you like to continue?
And the fourth one is challenge.
What do you want to challengethe person?
That's a really useful frameworkfor people, say, when they want
to give a bit of feedback aboutsomething that they're
(10:27):
observing, so say they'renoticing that somebody talks
over them all the time in ameeting, then they can use the
framework to say this is whatI'm observing.
I observe that when we're inmeetings together, sometimes you
seem to jump in and you talkover me.
The impact of that is that Ifind it quite difficult to get
my point across, and so thecuriosity then is what do you
(10:50):
think is going on?
Have you noticed that?
And instead of saying, why areyou interrupting me all the time
, mo, I'm able to say, to justsay what I'm observing and what
the impact is.
So it makes it lessconfrontational, it makes it
less emotional.
So that's an example of where,yeah, I might give someone a
framework, but I wouldn'tnecessarily go and tell them how
to use it and when to use.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's great, and the aspect that I
bring into it is helping themzoom in on what their energy is
in that moment Understanding,because when there are certain
avoidance present or hesitancythat's present, I help them
create awareness around.
Why are you hesitant?
(11:28):
What are we really avoiding?
And when you can createawareness around there, then we
find out.
We usually come to a conclusionthat there's some sort of
limiting belief that's present,some sort of assumption that's
present, and when you canovercome that, then you gain
your power of choice so that youcan start to move forward more
(11:52):
confidently.
But I do have another questionfor you.
Tell me about Hex.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Well, so Hex is my company and, yeah, we call
ourselves People PerformanceConsultants.
Hex was started by me when itwas just me to start with, but
now there are five of us whowork in the company, either
permanently, like me, or on anassociate basis, and hex is the
brand that I use as a vehiclefor all the different things
that I'm privileged to um to getinvolved in, and I suppose that
(12:23):
the great thing that I foundabout starting this business is
that I've been able to try lotsand lots of different things and
really work out what are thebits that I really enjoy doing
and really exciting times.
We just relaunched our website,so we've got a brand new
website that's gone up.
We're now sponsoring big events, sponsored our first big HR
(12:45):
event in London last year andwe're going to do that again
this year as well, so thebusiness is going from strength
to strength and we're getting towork with some really great
clients.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, that's great.
What do you find working withyour clients and hacks to be the
common barrier that leadersembark on?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think that as human beings we're really hardwired
to avoid uncomfortablesituations.
When I was listening to whatyou were saying about how you
work with your clients, I wasthinking about some of the
things that we do to recognizediscomfort and recognize it in
the body and recognizephysiologically what's happening
(13:28):
so that to your point you canget to, to that why, like what
is really going on here and whatis stopping us from taking
action.
So I think that whole sort oflevel of discomfort, and I think
particularly aroundrelationships, british people
we're quite reserved.
We don't we're not always asdirect as perhaps some other
cultures are, and I thinkBritish people often are so
(13:52):
concerned about being polite,looking after that relationship,
that sometimes it stops themreally saying the thing that
they need to say.
For example, like the talkingabout the OI4C framework, that
really is a, it's a vehicle, ifyou like, to be able to have
some of those difficultconversations that often leaders
are holding back and it'sreally holding back the progress
(14:13):
and it's holding back theirorganizations as well.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Absolutely, and I had this thought that just came to
my mind.
I'm thinking to myself yeah,man, how do I really tap into
clients to get them out of theirown way?
Because that's my model rightHelp you get out of your own way
, get them out of their own way,because that's my model right
help you get out of your own way.
And the thing that comes up tome that I just realized
listening to you talk, that Iconsistently do with clients is
(14:41):
I ask them what is theirrelationship like with
themselves?
Right, what?
What is that thought processwhen shit is all calm, nothing's
nothing, there's no chaos?
What's that relationship withyourself like?
What thoughts do you have aboutyourself?
(15:01):
What is that inner voice sayingto you?
Is it something positive ornegative?
And then I look at it from thestandpoint of if it's the
negative voice, that's the innercritic trying to keep you small
.
If it's always somethingpositive, that's your inner
coach trying to elevate you.
(15:24):
What is that relationship withyourself?
And how do you navigate thatconversation within yourself?
And that's a powerful questionbecause it for me.
It helps me get to the root ofwhere people's energy is right,
because with the voice, theverbiage is consistently.
(15:48):
I can't this, I shouldn't this,and they're triggered through
frustration, fear, I don't know,hopelessness, guilt, any of
that stuff.
More than likely, in thosemoments, their energy is just
draining them and they're notproductive in that moment, which
(16:11):
causes them to be reactive inall that they do.
And if we can shift to a moreintentional being in that space,
you have power of choicetotally when when you were
talking, I was thinking about.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
There are often, like , several versions of us inside
us and none of them are bad,like none of them are there to
make us feel bad or make us feelsmall.
Protect us.
So if part of you is saying youcan't do something, it's
basically saying don't take arisk.
You might look stupid if youfail and it's not helpful, is it
?
But at the same time, it's apart of you that's trying to
(16:54):
look after your welfare, yourwellbeing.
So I always think I've had tolearn when I've been pushing
myself to do new things and I'vegot that voice in my head
saying you can't do it, I've hadto learn to be kind to that
person and say thank you fortrying to protect me, but I
don't need it now.
You go and concentrate onsomething else at the moment.
So I'm totally with you and Ithink lots of people out there
(17:16):
are really struggling with that,really struggling.
Whatever you want to call it.
A lot of people call itimposter syndrome and things
like that.
But whatever you call it,there's a lot going on inside us
, whoever we are.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, so tell me about the book what's the name
of it and does it address someof the things that we're talking
about right now?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
in her job, and so she goes to work with a coach
and a mentor and works throughthe framework that I've
developed for how to be a reallygreat senior HR leader.
One of the parts of theframework is about the mindset
of a great HR leader.
It's the mindset of a greatleader, which is to be very
intentional or purposeful and tomake sure that they're always
on the edge of their learning.
A lot of that section of thebook is about the main
(18:15):
character's confidence to playin the space in their role where
they're going to add the mostvalue and not constantly get
dragged into the drama of otherpeople's problems or getting
dumped on by with things thatthey shouldn't really be getting
involved in.
The main character goes andworks through the framework with
(18:36):
the coach and goes back intoher role and tries new things
and really pushes herself tomake some behavioral change.
Hopefully there's a happyending to it, because I won't
give it away, but she has ahappy ending and she becomes
much more successful in her role, and so it was quite an
interesting process for me.
I've never written a book before.
I'm now writing the second onebecause I think once you've done
(18:58):
one, you get a bit ofconfidence, get your mojo about
it.
And yeah, it was a reallyinteresting process and it was
an interesting learning processfor me, reflecting on me and
perhaps some of the things thatI did well and some of the
things that I think, inhindsight, I could have done a
lot better but that's thebenefit of hindsight and time.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That's what I was going to ask you what propelled
you to want to write a book, andwhat was that experience like
and what was the feeling aftercompleting it and launching it
to the world?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I had a business coach he's a guy called Robin
White.
He's a brilliant guy andlaunching it to the world.
I had a business coach and he'sa guy called Robin White, he's
a brilliant guy.
And he said to me he said, whydon't you write a book?
It'd be a good thing for you tobe able to give to your clients
, get on a few podcasts andthings like that and build your
presence and build your personalbrand.
And I was like, yeah, I'm notsure I've got a book, but I'll
give it a go.
I wrote the first draft of it.
It was about 18,000 words.
(19:50):
I went to a publisher and I said, yeah, I've got this idea and
done this book and I don'treally want anyone to read it.
I just want something to giveout to people.
And she said you need to go toa different publisher then,
because we don't publish booksthat people don't want to read.
We only publish books thatpeople do.
So I had to go away and workharder on it and make it
something that actually I wasproud of, which wasn't always
(20:13):
easy, but it got there and itwas published on March, the 11th
this year, so just a few weeksago.
Okay, congratulations, thankyou.
Yeah, and it got to.
It was an Amazon bestseller inthree categories on the first
day.
That was really greatachievement.
So I've got a little sticker onthe books now that says I'm an
Amazon bestseller and theofficial launch party is on May
(20:34):
1st in London.
So I'm looking forward to that.
But yeah, it's just.
It's a really great feeling tosay that I'm an author Wasn't
something that I ever thought Iwould be.
So, yeah, it's really lovely.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's awesome.
One thing I remember you sayingas we were talking a little bit
about your book you mentionedthe mindset of great leaders.
Right, yeah, I'm going to putmyself in the audience
standpoint shoes right now.
I'm a leader, I'm very busy,I'm feeling burned out, I don't
(21:07):
have the bandwidth, I don't havetime to go to another training
out, I don't have the bandwidth,I don't have time to go to
another training, and it'sdifficult right now to free up
time to invest in coaching formyself.
What's one practical thing?
You can give me more if youlike, but what's one practical
thing that I can do to developmy mindset as a great leader
(21:31):
when I don't have time to dothese other things?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
As I mentioned, so I would say that the first thing
you've got to do is look atwhere you're spending your time
and look at your priorities,because if you're not spending
time looking after yourdevelopment and looking after
your leadership and making surethat you're the best leader that
you can be, then you're goingto be wasting a hell of a lot of
(21:58):
time doing other things thatadd a lot less value.
So lots of the leaders that Italk to, mo and, to be honest,
it's particularly common in HRleaders, I think as well because
HR always feel like HR leadersfeel like they've got to give
the learning budget to the restof the business and not they
feel guilty spending it onthemselves.
Lots of leaders do not takecare of their own development
(22:20):
and don't prioritize their owndevelopment.
Now I can look at some of thebest leaders that I've ever
worked with and a hundredpercent of them they prioritized
their development.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So it was at the top of their priority list.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It wasn't somewhere down here behind messing about
sending emails at nine o'clockat night or whatever, that just
caused more emails to come back.
So that that would be this tipis you find some time for your
development, prioritize itbecause there is time, there is
time.
It's just you're wasting timesomewhere else that you don't
need to waste.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I'm 1000% there with you, brother.
1000% Because I think a lot ofwhen they're coming from that
mindset of I don't have the time, I got to do this, I'm burnt
out here, how do you, how do Ifix myself to get this time?
And in that case there's aleader of self-issue.
(23:12):
That's my framework of it.
There's a leader of self-issueand when you don't have a
foundation to lead yourself,there's no power of choice.
With no power of choice, you'reconsistently reacting to
everything that comes into yourconsciousness, everything but
(23:37):
the things that you perceive tobe priority, and your
self-development is put on abackburner.
We lose our power of choice,because that's the one thing
that sharpens our saw to beeffective is the personal
(23:58):
development, the leadershipdevelopment, whatever
development that's reallyimportant, and positioning
yourself to get out of your ownhead.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, it's so important.
I do quite a lot of work in theaviation industry and it's a
very trodden path in terms ofcliched sayings.
We always start with put yourown mask on before helping
others.
When you get on the flight andthey do the safety demonstration
, they always say put your ownmask on for helping others.
(24:31):
And it's true.
You've got to look afteryourself as a leader if you want
to be able to lead effectively,and so I'm with you a thousand
percent, mo as well.
You've got to do this stuff,get out of your way.
You've got to get out of yourown way.
You've got to reflect on thisstuff and work out what you're
doing well and what you can dobetter.
It's important right to buildyour effectiveness.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And it goes with everything in life, right.
If you're trying to improvebetter health, if you're trying
to get a promotion, whatever itis, whatever area of your life
it is that you're trying toimprove upon, it takes
repetition, it takes practice,it takes consistency Right.
And if you're not willing toput that in for yourself, you're
(25:16):
going to continue to run intothe barriers.
But the barriers that we runinto makes it easier to quit.
At the end of the day, it makesit easier to quit.
And then you're in that cycleof starting something and not
necessarily finishing it,because you're not willing to
(25:36):
put the reps in to overcome it.
And the reps, though, are thelearning opportunities, because
each experience is anopportunity to learn something
new, to elevate you one stephigher, and if you come at it
from that viewpoint, you'realways naturally growing, and
(25:58):
with that growth, yeah, there'spower of choice yeah, I love
that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It's at your most vulnerable and the most
uncomfortable times where youare being truly innovative and
you really grow, so you've gotto push yourself into these,
into doing things that aredifficult yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
That's what I love about the work that you do right
, because I'm sure a lot of yourclients they have this comfort
zone and as a consultant you canhelp them see the vision,
whatever that is that they'retrying to do.
But then you have thecredibility to push them out of
(26:41):
that comfort zone to see theresults that they can't
necessarily see in that momentof where they currently are, and
that's a powerful place to beable to help people.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah definitely it's a privilege to be working with
people in those moments where,quite often, they're making some
really profound change and someprofound breakthroughs to get
better.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Any final thoughts that you would like to share
before we sign off today?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Oh, I think if anybody who's listening to this
and they're thinking, yeah, Ireally haven't got time, I
really haven't got time to dodevelopment, I'm up to here,
it's all too difficult, I wouldjust say, just look again, just
look again and push yourself.
And don't forget that that ispart of the discomfort of change
is moving out of the thingsthat you think that you've got
(27:35):
to do and moving out ofsometimes maybe challenging
people's assumptions around whatyou're there for and what
you're there to deliver.
And it's tough because it movesaway from your identity of who
you are and what you do.
But please just give it a try.
I promise you it will feel goodwhen you start to make really,
really change thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
How can my audience find you?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
so they can find me on linkedin, where I post a lot
of my insights and a lot of mythoughts.
I also have a blog on therethat I linkedin newsletter
apologies that I publish everymonth.
You can find my book People onAmazon, so you can buy it on
there.
It's available all over theworld.
My website iswwwhex-developmentcom and all my
(28:22):
resources and insights arethere as well.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
There it is, mr Tom Emery.
I appreciate you, sir.
Thank you for sharing yourknowledge and your wisdom today.
Thank you, I've really enjoyedit, your knowledge and your
wisdom today.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Thank you, I've really enjoyed it.
It's been great spending sometime with you, absolutely Till
next time, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of let's
Think About it.
Your time and attention aregreatly appreciated.
If you found value in today'sdiscussion, I encourage you to
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platform.
Remember, the journey ofself-improvement is ongoing and
I'm here to support you everystep of the way.
(29:01):
Connect with me on social mediafor updates and insights.
You can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Coach Mo
Coaching, or LinkedIn at MauriceMabry, at Coach Mo Coaching or
LinkedIn at Maurice Mabry, orvisit my website at
mauricemabrycom for exclusivecontent.
Until next time, keepreflecting, keep growing and,
(29:24):
most importantly, keep believingin yourself.
Remember, the most effectiveway to do it is to do it
Together.
We're making incredible stridestoward a better and more
empowered you, so thank you, andI'll see you in our next
episode.
Welcome to the let's Think About it podcast, where we
embark on a journey ofthoughtfulness and personal
growth.
I'm your host, coach Mo, andI'm here to guide you through
thought-promoting discussionsthat will inspire you to unlock
your full potential.
In each episode, we'll explorea wide range of topics, from
self-discovery and mindfulnessto goal-setting and achieving
(00:33):
success.
Together, we'll challengeconventional thinking and dive
deep into the realms ofpossibility.
Whether you're looking to findclarity in your personal or
professional life, or seekingstrategies to overcome obstacles
, this podcast is your go-tosource for insightful
conversations and practicaladvice.
So find a comfortable spot,chill and let's embark on this
(00:57):
journey of self-improvementtogether.
Remember, the power oftransformation lies within you,
and together we'll uncover thetools and insights you need to
make it happen.
So let's dive in.
Welcome to another episode ofthe let's Think About it podcast
(01:20):
.
I'm your host, coach Mo, andI'm here with another amazing
guest.
His name is Tom Emery.
Tom, what's good, brother?
Hey Mo, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's good to be here, I'm awesome man, I'm awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
First question where are you checking in from?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I'm checking in from a place called Litchfield.
It's a little town in theMidlands of the UK.
It's not far from Birmingham.
What's?
One great thing about the areaand region of the UK that you
live in got a Roman settlementquite near the ruins of a Roman
(02:03):
settlement.
So what's that?
2,000 years old, we have anincredible cathedral, massive
cathedral that was started inthe 12th century, but it's
pretty much bang in the middleof the UK, so it's one of the
furthest places from the seafrom the ocean that you can be
(02:30):
in the UK, but it means you canget anywhere within a couple of
hours.
So tell my audience who you are,what you do and the type of
value you bring.
I am a people performanceconsultant.
I do a little bit of lots ofdifferent things, but I'm
basically about helping peopleto reach their full potential in
life and work, so my backgroundis in human resources.
I worked in human resources forabout 20 odd years before I
started my own business, helpingother people do a mix of
(02:54):
coaching some team coaching,some team effectiveness work and
some broader leadershipdevelopment and I'm really
passionate about that.
I'm passionate about helpingpeople to lean into some of the
discomfort of trying new thingsand making brave change so that
they can make the most ofthemselves.
(03:15):
I love what I do.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Take me through your process of like how did you
arrive into consulting?
What Was it something thattriggered you in your life, that
propelled you into leadershipand consulting?
What was that?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I come from a family, quite a big family, and my mom
in particular has a real passionfor helping people and she was
a role model for me as I grew upand I watched her put herself
out, you know, really go out ofher way to help people.
So if you do a psychometric onme, you'll find that I'm very
strong on altruism, very strongon that sort of affiliation and
(03:55):
wanting to yeah, to supportother people.
And I went into my career inhuman resources because, like
lots of people who go into humanresources, I went into it
because I wanted to work withpeople.
I liked people.
Unfortunately, sometimes whenyou're in human resources people
, when they're not at their best, you might be in a process
(04:16):
where they're getting mayberedundant or they're getting
fired or they're in adisciplinary situation.
And I suppose I spent a longtime working with different
people and I realized after abit that the bits that I really
enjoyed were the bits where Iwas helping people and I was
passionate about and not so muchthe sitting in long meetings
talking about people risk orsitting in those restructure
(04:38):
meetings where we were thinkingabout how many people we were
going to lay off.
So I thought I would follow mypassions, and that's where the
idea for the business came from.
And yeah, it's gone fromstrength to strength.
I've been able to work withlots of different people from
lots of different walks of lifeand different organizations, not
only to help them practicallythrough coaching or through team
(05:01):
development, but also throughcoming up with my own insights
and my own frameworks.
I also recently published abook as well, called People
Reach your Full Potential as aChief HR Officer, which is
really to help people who are insenior HR jobs to do the job
really well and be reallymaximum in terms of their impact
(05:21):
.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's great, man.
Before we tap into your book,let's talk about your
methodological approach tohelping people.
You focus on leadership.
Is that correct?
Yeah, okay, and what's yourtypical approach and your
methodology approach to helpingthese leaders?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, well, I think it starts from a place of
curiosity really, and reallymeeting leaders where they are.
So when I observe leaders, lotsof leaders know what to do, like
they know how to lead well, butsomething stops them from
leaning into some of thediscomfort and the difficult
bits of leadership, and thatmight be around.
(06:04):
They might struggle withconflict or they might struggle
with relationships, and mymethodology really is to first
of all really get to know themand go deep with them in terms
of where they are, what theirchallenges are and what might be
stopping them, what thebarriers might be, and then we
really get into what's going on.
I challenge them on where theycan do things different, and one
of the things that I alwaystalk on I challenge them on
where they can do thingsdifferent and one of the things
(06:27):
that I always talk about when Imeet with leaders, when I'm
getting to know new clients andwhen clients are deciding
whether we're a good fit to worktogether, is that I can do the
soft stuff, I can create thesafe space, but I'm really all
about results at the end of theday and I will challenge and I
will call things out thatperhaps feel a bit crunchy and a
bit uncomfortable, but that'sall in service of the client,
(06:51):
getting what they need and beingable to make real tangible
process.
So I always think, yeah, don'tcome to me if you just want
someone to tell you what youwant to hear.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I'm gonna give you the hard message to help you
make some positive change, helpmy audience understand this
right because I'm going to giveyou the hard message to help you
make some positive change, Helpmy audience understand this
right Because I'm a coach.
And then you said you have aconsultancy practice.
What's the difference?
Why would someone see aconsultant over a coach or vice
(07:20):
versa?
Or can you do bothsimultaneously?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question,
mo, because I think when you'retraining to be a coach, you are
trained to not give advice,you're trained to listen, you're
trained to encourage the clientto come up with their own
solutions and to really buildthose solutions themselves.
For me, the way I work withclients is it's a bit more
(07:49):
situational.
So I think, in answer to yourquestion, I think you can be
both, but I think you have to bevery clear when you are one or
the other.
I would say when I'm workingwith clients, I'm probably 50,
60% of the time I am a purecoach, in that I'm listening to
them, I'm asking them curiousquestions, I'm challenging back,
I'm playing back what I'mhearing, I'm asking about their
(08:12):
assumptions and whether whatthey're saying is true.
But the other probably 40percent, I might be bringing in
some of my expertise, becauseusually that's what the client
is asking for from me.
They're not coming to me as apure.
They're coming to me becauseI've got a slightly different
take on things.
Maybe I've got an executivebackground, I've done some of
the big jobs in organizationswhich mean that perhaps I can
(08:35):
give a bit of context.
But I think there's a dangerthere right, there's a risk, and
so if that's happening, thenthat's always done very
purposefully and make it clearto the client that this might be
a bit of direction, a bit oftraining, a bit of advice and
not just pure coaching.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So what I hear is from a consultancy standpoint.
You're more of an advisor.
You're giving them specificdirection of how to overcome or
move towards a specific outcomethat they need help in, Whereas
coaching the client is thedriver of that and you're asking
questions, or we're askingquestions because I'm a coach to
(09:16):
help guide them through theirown self-discovery to make that,
to reach that desired outcome.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, I wouldn't say I was that directional.
So I think where the advicecomes in is offering up
frameworks for the client tothen use to implement themselves
.
For example, a framework that Ideveloped that I use a lot is
called the OI4C framework, andthis is really a framework for
(09:45):
having lots of differentconversations that might feel a
little bit difficult.
I give them a framework thatthey can make their own.
So if you take the OI4Cframework, the O stands for
observe, so it's really what areyou observing in this situation
?
The I stands for impact what'sthe impact?
And then you choose one of thefour c's, and the first c is
curious.
(10:06):
So what questions have you gotabout the situation?
And the next one is change.
So what would you like tochange about the situation?
The third one is continue whatmight you like to continue?
And the fourth one is challenge.
What do you want to challengethe person?
That's a really useful frameworkfor people, say, when they want
to give a bit of feedback aboutsomething that they're
(10:27):
observing, so say they'renoticing that somebody talks
over them all the time in ameeting, then they can use the
framework to say this is whatI'm observing.
I observe that when we're inmeetings together, sometimes you
seem to jump in and you talkover me.
The impact of that is that Ifind it quite difficult to get
my point across, and so thecuriosity then is what do you
(10:50):
think is going on?
Have you noticed that?
And instead of saying, why areyou interrupting me all the time
, mo, I'm able to say, to justsay what I'm observing and what
the impact is.
So it makes it lessconfrontational, it makes it
less emotional.
So that's an example of where,yeah, I might give someone a
framework, but I wouldn'tnecessarily go and tell them how
to use it and when to use.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's great, and the aspect that I
bring into it is helping themzoom in on what their energy is
in that moment Understanding,because when there are certain
avoidance present or hesitancythat's present, I help them
create awareness around.
Why are you hesitant?
(11:28):
What are we really avoiding?
And when you can createawareness around there, then we
find out.
We usually come to a conclusionthat there's some sort of
limiting belief that's present,some sort of assumption that's
present, and when you canovercome that, then you gain
your power of choice so that youcan start to move forward more
(11:52):
confidently.
But I do have another questionfor you.
Tell me about Hex.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Well, so Hex is my company and, yeah, we call
ourselves People PerformanceConsultants.
Hex was started by me when itwas just me to start with, but
now there are five of us whowork in the company, either
permanently, like me, or on anassociate basis, and hex is the
brand that I use as a vehiclefor all the different things
that I'm privileged to um to getinvolved in, and I suppose that
(12:23):
the great thing that I foundabout starting this business is
that I've been able to try lotsand lots of different things and
really work out what are thebits that I really enjoy doing
and really exciting times.
We just relaunched our website,so we've got a brand new
website that's gone up.
We're now sponsoring big events, sponsored our first big HR
(12:45):
event in London last year andwe're going to do that again
this year as well, so thebusiness is going from strength
to strength and we're getting towork with some really great
clients.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, that's great.
What do you find working withyour clients and hacks to be the
common barrier that leadersembark on?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think that as human beings we're really hardwired
to avoid uncomfortablesituations.
When I was listening to whatyou were saying about how you
work with your clients, I wasthinking about some of the
things that we do to recognizediscomfort and recognize it in
the body and recognizephysiologically what's happening
(13:28):
so that to your point you canget to, to that why, like what
is really going on here and whatis stopping us from taking
action.
So I think that whole sort oflevel of discomfort, and I think
particularly aroundrelationships, british people
we're quite reserved.
We don't we're not always asdirect as perhaps some other
cultures are, and I thinkBritish people often are so
(13:52):
concerned about being polite,looking after that relationship,
that sometimes it stops themreally saying the thing that
they need to say.
For example, like the talkingabout the OI4C framework, that
really is a, it's a vehicle, ifyou like, to be able to have
some of those difficultconversations that often leaders
are holding back and it'sreally holding back the progress
(14:13):
and it's holding back theirorganizations as well.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Absolutely, and I had this thought that just came to
my mind.
I'm thinking to myself yeah,man, how do I really tap into
clients to get them out of theirown way?
Because that's my model rightHelp you get out of your own way
, get them out of their own way,because that's my model right
help you get out of your own way.
And the thing that comes up tome that I just realized
listening to you talk, that Iconsistently do with clients is
(14:41):
I ask them what is theirrelationship like with
themselves?
Right, what?
What is that thought processwhen shit is all calm, nothing's
nothing, there's no chaos?
What's that relationship withyourself like?
What thoughts do you have aboutyourself?
(15:01):
What is that inner voice sayingto you?
Is it something positive ornegative?
And then I look at it from thestandpoint of if it's the
negative voice, that's the innercritic trying to keep you small
.
If it's always somethingpositive, that's your inner
coach trying to elevate you.
(15:24):
What is that relationship withyourself?
And how do you navigate thatconversation within yourself?
And that's a powerful questionbecause it for me.
It helps me get to the root ofwhere people's energy is right,
because with the voice, theverbiage is consistently.
(15:48):
I can't this, I shouldn't this,and they're triggered through
frustration, fear, I don't know,hopelessness, guilt, any of
that stuff.
More than likely, in thosemoments, their energy is just
draining them and they're notproductive in that moment, which
(16:11):
causes them to be reactive inall that they do.
And if we can shift to a moreintentional being in that space,
you have power of choicetotally when when you were
talking, I was thinking about.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
There are often, like , several versions of us inside
us and none of them are bad,like none of them are there to
make us feel bad or make us feelsmall.
Protect us.
So if part of you is saying youcan't do something, it's
basically saying don't take arisk.
You might look stupid if youfail and it's not helpful, is it
?
But at the same time, it's apart of you that's trying to
(16:54):
look after your welfare, yourwellbeing.
So I always think I've had tolearn when I've been pushing
myself to do new things and I'vegot that voice in my head
saying you can't do it, I've hadto learn to be kind to that
person and say thank you fortrying to protect me, but I
don't need it now.
You go and concentrate onsomething else at the moment.
So I'm totally with you and Ithink lots of people out there
(17:16):
are really struggling with that,really struggling.
Whatever you want to call it.
A lot of people call itimposter syndrome and things
like that.
But whatever you call it,there's a lot going on inside us
, whoever we are.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, so tell me about the book what's the name
of it and does it address someof the things that we're talking
about right now?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
in her job, and so she goes to work with a coach
and a mentor and works throughthe framework that I've
developed for how to be a reallygreat senior HR leader.
One of the parts of theframework is about the mindset
of a great HR leader.
It's the mindset of a greatleader, which is to be very
intentional or purposeful and tomake sure that they're always
on the edge of their learning.
A lot of that section of thebook is about the main
(18:15):
character's confidence to playin the space in their role where
they're going to add the mostvalue and not constantly get
dragged into the drama of otherpeople's problems or getting
dumped on by with things thatthey shouldn't really be getting
involved in.
The main character goes andworks through the framework with
(18:36):
the coach and goes back intoher role and tries new things
and really pushes herself tomake some behavioral change.
Hopefully there's a happyending to it, because I won't
give it away, but she has ahappy ending and she becomes
much more successful in her role, and so it was quite an
interesting process for me.
I've never written a book before.
I'm now writing the second onebecause I think once you've done
(18:58):
one, you get a bit ofconfidence, get your mojo about
it.
And yeah, it was a reallyinteresting process and it was
an interesting learning processfor me, reflecting on me and
perhaps some of the things thatI did well and some of the
things that I think, inhindsight, I could have done a
lot better but that's thebenefit of hindsight and time.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That's what I was going to ask you what propelled
you to want to write a book, andwhat was that experience like
and what was the feeling aftercompleting it and launching it
to the world?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I had a business coach he's a guy called Robin
White.
He's a brilliant guy andlaunching it to the world.
I had a business coach and he'sa guy called Robin White, he's
a brilliant guy.
And he said to me he said, whydon't you write a book?
It'd be a good thing for you tobe able to give to your clients
, get on a few podcasts andthings like that and build your
presence and build your personalbrand.
And I was like, yeah, I'm notsure I've got a book, but I'll
give it a go.
I wrote the first draft of it.
It was about 18,000 words.
(19:50):
I went to a publisher and I said, yeah, I've got this idea and
done this book and I don'treally want anyone to read it.
I just want something to giveout to people.
And she said you need to go toa different publisher then,
because we don't publish booksthat people don't want to read.
We only publish books thatpeople do.
So I had to go away and workharder on it and make it
something that actually I wasproud of, which wasn't always
(20:13):
easy, but it got there and itwas published on March, the 11th
this year, so just a few weeksago.
Okay, congratulations, thankyou.
Yeah, and it got to.
It was an Amazon bestseller inthree categories on the first
day.
That was really greatachievement.
So I've got a little sticker onthe books now that says I'm an
Amazon bestseller and theofficial launch party is on May
(20:34):
1st in London.
So I'm looking forward to that.
But yeah, it's just.
It's a really great feeling tosay that I'm an author Wasn't
something that I ever thought Iwould be.
So, yeah, it's really lovely.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's awesome.
One thing I remember you sayingas we were talking a little bit
about your book you mentionedthe mindset of great leaders.
Right, yeah, I'm going to putmyself in the audience
standpoint shoes right now.
I'm a leader, I'm very busy,I'm feeling burned out, I don't
(21:07):
have the bandwidth, I don't havetime to go to another training
out, I don't have the bandwidth,I don't have time to go to
another training, and it'sdifficult right now to free up
time to invest in coaching formyself.
What's one practical thing?
You can give me more if youlike, but what's one practical
thing that I can do to developmy mindset as a great leader
(21:31):
when I don't have time to dothese other things?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
As I mentioned, so I would say that the first thing
you've got to do is look atwhere you're spending your time
and look at your priorities,because if you're not spending
time looking after yourdevelopment and looking after
your leadership and making surethat you're the best leader that
you can be, then you're goingto be wasting a hell of a lot of
(21:58):
time doing other things thatadd a lot less value.
So lots of the leaders that Italk to, mo and, to be honest,
it's particularly common in HRleaders, I think as well because
HR always feel like HR leadersfeel like they've got to give
the learning budget to the restof the business and not they
feel guilty spending it onthemselves.
Lots of leaders do not takecare of their own development
(22:20):
and don't prioritize their owndevelopment.
Now I can look at some of thebest leaders that I've ever
worked with and a hundredpercent of them they prioritized
their development.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So it was at the top of their priority list.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It wasn't somewhere down here behind messing about
sending emails at nine o'clockat night or whatever, that just
caused more emails to come back.
So that that would be this tipis you find some time for your
development, prioritize itbecause there is time, there is
time.
It's just you're wasting timesomewhere else that you don't
need to waste.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I'm 1000% there with you, brother.
1000% Because I think a lot ofwhen they're coming from that
mindset of I don't have the time, I got to do this, I'm burnt
out here, how do you, how do Ifix myself to get this time?
And in that case there's aleader of self-issue.
(23:12):
That's my framework of it.
There's a leader of self-issueand when you don't have a
foundation to lead yourself,there's no power of choice.
With no power of choice, you'reconsistently reacting to
everything that comes into yourconsciousness, everything but
(23:37):
the things that you perceive tobe priority, and your
self-development is put on abackburner.
We lose our power of choice,because that's the one thing
that sharpens our saw to beeffective is the personal
(23:58):
development, the leadershipdevelopment, whatever
development that's reallyimportant, and positioning
yourself to get out of your ownhead.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, it's so important.
I do quite a lot of work in theaviation industry and it's a
very trodden path in terms ofcliched sayings.
We always start with put yourown mask on before helping
others.
When you get on the flight andthey do the safety demonstration
, they always say put your ownmask on for helping others.
(24:31):
And it's true.
You've got to look afteryourself as a leader if you want
to be able to lead effectively,and so I'm with you a thousand
percent, mo as well.
You've got to do this stuff,get out of your way.
You've got to get out of yourown way.
You've got to reflect on thisstuff and work out what you're
doing well and what you can dobetter.
It's important right to buildyour effectiveness.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And it goes with everything in life, right.
If you're trying to improvebetter health, if you're trying
to get a promotion, whatever itis, whatever area of your life
it is that you're trying toimprove upon, it takes
repetition, it takes practice,it takes consistency Right.
And if you're not willing toput that in for yourself, you're
(25:16):
going to continue to run intothe barriers.
But the barriers that we runinto makes it easier to quit.
At the end of the day, it makesit easier to quit.
And then you're in that cycleof starting something and not
necessarily finishing it,because you're not willing to
(25:36):
put the reps in to overcome it.
And the reps, though, are thelearning opportunities, because
each experience is anopportunity to learn something
new, to elevate you one stephigher, and if you come at it
from that viewpoint, you'realways naturally growing, and
(25:58):
with that growth, yeah, there'spower of choice yeah, I love
that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It's at your most vulnerable and the most
uncomfortable times where youare being truly innovative and
you really grow, so you've gotto push yourself into these,
into doing things that aredifficult yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
That's what I love about the work that you do right
, because I'm sure a lot of yourclients they have this comfort
zone and as a consultant you canhelp them see the vision,
whatever that is that they'retrying to do.
But then you have thecredibility to push them out of
(26:41):
that comfort zone to see theresults that they can't
necessarily see in that momentof where they currently are, and
that's a powerful place to beable to help people.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah definitely it's a privilege to be working with
people in those moments where,quite often, they're making some
really profound change and someprofound breakthroughs to get
better.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Any final thoughts that you would like to share
before we sign off today?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Oh, I think if anybody who's listening to this
and they're thinking, yeah, Ireally haven't got time, I
really haven't got time to dodevelopment, I'm up to here,
it's all too difficult, I wouldjust say, just look again, just
look again and push yourself.
And don't forget that that ispart of the discomfort of change
is moving out of the thingsthat you think that you've got
(27:35):
to do and moving out ofsometimes maybe challenging
people's assumptions around whatyou're there for and what
you're there to deliver.
And it's tough because it movesaway from your identity of who
you are and what you do.
But please just give it a try.
I promise you it will feel goodwhen you start to make really,
really change thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
How can my audience find you?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
so they can find me on linkedin, where I post a lot
of my insights and a lot of mythoughts.
I also have a blog on therethat I linkedin newsletter
apologies that I publish everymonth.
You can find my book People onAmazon, so you can buy it on
there.
It's available all over theworld.
My website iswwwhex-developmentcom and all my
(28:22):
resources and insights arethere as well.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
There it is, mr Tom Emery.
I appreciate you, sir.
Thank you for sharing yourknowledge and your wisdom today.
Thank you, I've really enjoyedit, your knowledge and your
wisdom today.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Thank you, I've really enjoyed it.
It's been great spending sometime with you, absolutely Till
next time, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of let's
Think About it.
Your time and attention aregreatly appreciated.
If you found value in today'sdiscussion, I encourage you to
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platform.
Remember, the journey ofself-improvement is ongoing and
I'm here to support you everystep of the way.
(29:01):
Connect with me on social mediafor updates and insights.
You can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Coach Mo
Coaching, or LinkedIn at MauriceMabry, at Coach Mo Coaching or
LinkedIn at Maurice Mabry, orvisit my website at
mauricemabrycom for exclusivecontent.
Until next time, keepreflecting, keep growing and,
(29:24):
most importantly, keep believingin yourself.
Remember, the most effectiveway to do it is to do it
Together.
We're making incredible stridestoward a better and more
empowered you, so thank you, andI'll see you in our next
episode.
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