July 2, 2024 • 26 mins
In 2010 podcast host Kate Peardon met fellow Australian Emilia Simonin in an MBA classroom in Paris. Throughout the years they've shared their journey across a number of countries and through corporate leadership, and today Emilia is the Global Market and Business Intelligence Director at L'Oreal, in Paris.
Today's episode interviews Emilia on her three key leadership lessons on her experience leading cross-cultural teams, and how each has shaped her journey from an Australian working in marketing in Sydney, to international director in Paris. Her lessons include:
- It's all about people, no matter who or where you're leading
- Communication styles in different cultures
- How authenticity has helped Emilia overcome cultural barriers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emilia Simonin (00:00):
If leadership is about people, and people
(00:02):
interact and communicate throughrelationships, then, how do you
form these relationships andthese connections?
And, for me, it's been very mucharound open hearted, being the
Australian you're in, and that'sbeen a bit of a journey as well
with the French environmentswhere it takes a little while
and when I mentioned leadership,I feel for me boils down to
(00:22):
relationships and choices.
It's the choices I make in termsof how I communicate with them,
and it's through these smallgestures that the trust is
developed daily.
And that's a learning curve aswell, that's what it means to be
in an internationalcross-cultural environment.
You need to be adaptive,flexible, open to the other
culture as well.
Kate Peardon (01:10):
Welcome to the Level Up Leadership podcast
today, I am joined by a veryspecial guest from the other
side of the world, which seemsas a fitting place for you to be
living seeing as where we met.
I am joined today by EmiliaSimonin, who is coming in from
Paris.
She's the Global Market andBusiness Intelligence Director
at L'Oreal.
(01:30):
And we met in 2010 when we wereboth studying at a university.
Emilia has some wonderfulstories to share today about her
leadership journey.
So welcome Em, and can you sharea little bit about your
background of how you got towhere you are today?
Emilia Simonin (01:45):
Yes, thanks so much for having me.
Today I am heading up the GlobalMarket Intelligence and
Analytics team, for the consumerproducts division at L'Oreal
headquarters in Paris.
I'm an Australian, but I seemyself as a citizen of the
world.
And how I got here was not astraight line at all.
So I started with a passion formarketing, which ultimately led
to a fascination for humanbehavior, which led to wanting
(02:07):
to be a part of setting thestrategy because early on in my
career, the marketing teams havealways worked for multinationals
and was in the markets, early onin my career.
And traditionally we were handedthe strategy by the
headquarters, and the marketswere essentially executing.
So this then led to me wantingto understand even more about
needs, attitudes, beliefs,shopping behaviors, which led me
(02:29):
to my current CMI roles.
I'd say, the red thread in mycareer has been very much about
curiosity and the quest forhelping my organization get more
consumer centric.
So, it's been a decade inmarketing roles and a decade
executing their CMI roles.
Kate Peardon (02:43):
You were working in Australia.
We met over in Paris.
You stayed Paris longer than Idid, met a lovely French
gentleman, worked in Paris, cameback to Sydney and now back in
Paris again.
Emilia Simonin (02:53):
Exactly.
Like I said, I very much enjoybeing a global citizen of the
world and it's been a greatcross-cultural experience.
Kate Peardon (03:01):
Yes.
One that I'm looking forward todiving into.
I was in Paris visiting, it mustbe a few months ago now, and we
got into some wonderfulconversations about culture and
being Australian and howlanguage and backgrounds all
influence how we work and whatour work ethic is, how you lead
(03:21):
an international andmulticultural team.
So I'm excited to dig into yourthree leadership lessons today.
So, we've had a little bit of aconversation and the first one,
obviously I love because yourfirst leadership lesson is it's
all about people, a bigfavourite of mine.
How did you come up with thisidea that it's all about people
(03:41):
when it comes to leadership?
Emilia Simonin (03:43):
Well, it's all been through trial and error and
experience.
Hindsight's a beautiful thing.
I think for me, where I am now,where I'm coming from, when I
say it's all about people, Ifeel like it's always been about
people, leadership from thebeginning of time, from looking
at communities, cultures,tribes, outside of corporate,
it's always been about leadingpeople.
From a theory perspective,there's been so many different
theories on leadership over thelast two decades.
(04:05):
And the last decade, especially,it's been a bit of a buzz, I
feel.
But it boils down for me now, asI said, in hindsight, it's all
about people.
And I would probably say inessence, I kind of see it as two
things.
I see it as relationships andchoices.
So relationships being, ifleadership is about people, it's
about creating trustingrelationships.
It's about how you communicate.
It's about how you connect.
(04:26):
And then the second piece for meabout choices is all about,
well, how do you show up inthose relationships and how do
you behave.
And then, that's when all theother theory comes in, EQ and
things like that.
So ultimately leaders achievegoals through people, simple as
it is, I think.
Kate Peardon (04:41):
And if you don't have their trust, you don't
achieve anything.
Well, actually you do with fear,but fear only lasts a certain
amount of time.
Emilia Simonin (04:48):
Yeah.
And I think trust is a huge,huge one.
And there's so much theory ontrust alone now, and there's
different types of leadershipand authentic leadership is all
the buzz.
But, that's my lesson numberthree, which I'll talk to in a
sec.
Kate Peardon (04:59):
Actually, I'm going to be casting your memory
back now.
But some people give truststraight up, and then it's up to
the person to lose it.
And when they lose it, it'sgone.
And other people, you build andyou earn trust.
And then sort of, once you'vegot it, you've got it.
And I remember having aconversation with you, saying
like different people havedifferent styles and with you,
you give trust straight away.
I remember the first day we metwas a click.
(05:21):
You're like,"Yep, trusted,you're in." And like have stuck
solid by that.
And I think about you and yourleadership style, this would be
quite similar as well.
You'd be like,"Right, you're onmy team.
I've got your back."
Emilia Simonin (05:33):
Absolutely, it's all about authentic leadership
for me.
That's again, speaking of theoryon leadership over the years,
that's been now proven to be oneof the most effective forms of
leadership.
Being an authentic leader isbuilt on trust.
What I really love about thisbecoming in the mainstream now
is that it gives us permissionto be nice at work.
It used to be nice at workdoesn't work, you need to be
(05:55):
tough and you need to beaggressive.
And especially for women inleadership, I feel like that's
what we were taught we had tobe.
And it's just done big 360 now,where actually women are being
proven scientifically, throughresearch, I mean, CMI that they
are, not to say one versus theother in terms of the sexes, the
battle of the sexes, but womenare being proven through science
(06:15):
to be more effective leadersbecause they naturally fall into
this authentic style.
And, to your point, trust is areally big piece of that
authentic style, but what doesit mean to be authentic?
It means you're transparent.
It means you lead withintegrity.
You're very open in yourcommunication.
You provide the informationneeded to your teams at the
right time to make decisions.
(06:36):
You allow them to input into thedecision making, which used to
be seen as these soft, fuzzyskills that were ineffective,
but they're proving now, they'resuper effective.
I think for the first time inhistory, I was reading the other
day, the Fortune 500 companies,women CEOs are at about 10
percent now, which is the firsttime.
It's being recognized as a wayto build effective teams.
Why?
As you said, it's all based ontrust.
(06:57):
And it's another correlationthat's been proven, high
performing teams have hightrust.
Why do we need trust?
Well, if there's no trust,there's no psychological safety,
there's no open collaboration.
Then without open collaboration,there's no creativity.
Without creativity, there's noinnovation.
Without innovation, there's nogrowth.
It's all linked and it allcorrelates back to growth and to
success.
Kate Peardon (07:17):
Now how have you found that correlating as an
Australian going into a Frenchbusiness?
Because your style is what yousee is what you get.
You're clear, you're articulate,and you know what you want, and
you're very clear at sharingyour expectations.
So no one's uncertain on wherethey stand, like your
communication is one of thehallmarks of your leadership
(07:38):
style.
Now, from what I know of Frenchpeople, and from the time that I
spent in France, that's quitedifferent.
How does it go for you?
Emilia Simonin (07:45):
It's such a fascinating observation, you're
absolutely on the money there.
And I'll tell you the secretsauce.
The reason my style, as anAustralian works in France, is
because I've been in globalroles.
And that cross-cultural map incross cultures, the low context
style, which is the explicit,very direct, very clear, keep
repeating the message, make sureyou understand, that's the one
(08:08):
that trumps in cross-culturalenvironments.
And that's why it's worked forme.
And, if, I don't know if you'veread the Culture Map by Erin
Meyer.
It was one of the first things Iread when I started going
international.
She says actually, much likeyour observation, I was like,
"Oh, that's why I got away withit." It is very much our style.
But at the same time, again, ifI reference the culture map, she
(08:28):
maps it all out basically oneight dimensions.
She's in Paris now as well,actually.
She's a professor at INSEAD.
But I think she released thistheory, back in 2014.
And for me, it's been a bit of aBible and it helps me
understand, not only navigate myinternational post, but
understand the French-Australiancorrelations are really
interesting one.
Because from a communicationstyle, where low context, as you
(08:49):
say, explicit, they are verysophisticating.
It's the art of conversation.
It's all in the unsaid, readbetween the lines, other
gestures and codes outside oflanguage.
It's how you dress, how you sit.
In my personal life in Paris hasbeen a couple of uh-oh's.
But, on that point where theAustralians work in France, in
terms of how we confront things,we're pretty okay with
(09:12):
confrontation and we're both onthe same side of the spectrum.
So for me, that's kind of workedfor me as well.
I'll give you a personal exampleon the French-Australian
combination, and it's took meages to crack.
As you said, I've been with aFrenchman for a little while.
But early on in therelationship, we were a
cross-cultural relationship.
And so, his communication stylewas different to my
communication style, and wewould disagree.
(09:32):
And me being the Anglophone,who's very literal, and my
language is very explicit andexact and precise, and I would
say,"Okay, but you said X, Y,Z." You know, I'd repeat the
words.
And he would always look at me,sort of baffled and saying,"But
that's not what I meant." Isaid,"But then why did you say
it if that's not what youmeant?" And for him, he kept
saying to me,"Listen to themeaning, not my words." And it
(09:57):
took me a long time.
And it actually, once I was sortof, started working in
cross-cultural environments andI had more examples outside of
that space where I sort ofstarted to understand, right.
Communication is pretty key aswell.
Kate Peardon (10:08):
I think that's such a good example.
And I think, independent ofcross culture, often we get hung
up on the words and what webelieve the words to mean
separate than what is the intentbehind this conversation, not
what are the words being said.
And I think that is a greatleadership tip in itself.
And then you add on the culturalcontext as well.
We had a conversation because Iasked, do you work in French or
(10:30):
English?
And you'd said to me,"I work inEnglish because it's like
businesses, it's the Englishlanguage.
And this is how I get my messageacross." And just hearing your
lessons of leadership, I alsosee how actually that could be
an advantage for you, for peopleto understand your style,
because your style said inFrench language is something
that would be almost clashingwhere your style in English
(10:55):
makes sense, putting your stylein French, you'd always have to
change your style when you speakin French for it to make sense.
Have I understood correctly?
Emilia Simonin (11:03):
Yes, you have.
And I think for me, it sort ofcomes back to that authentic
leadership style.
And I think when we go back tothis concept of humans and the
foundation of trust, I feelthat's what shines through when
people can see that you arebeing authentic, that they can
trust you.
They will open up even if yourstyle is a little bit different.
Kate Peardon (11:22):
I think that's a really great point, for
cross-cultural differences, butalso independent of that.
Because we're always going tohave different styles as leaders
and you can't expect it to besimilar, so the best you can do
is be consistently authenticallyyou.
Because it's when it'sinconsistent, it's when people
then start to question,"Well,what is this?"
Emilia Simonin (11:39):
Yes, and I think it comes down to, you know,
something else we haven't spokenabout, which is really
foundational to my leadershipstyle, which is individuals.
And appreciating people areindividuals.
Yes, you're leading teams.
Yes, you have a common purpose.
And that's where communicationis really important as well to
motivate people across thatcommon purpose and goal.
But ultimately, they'reindividuals.
And for me, this comes naturalfor me with the coaching style,
(12:02):
because I want to develop themand I want to nurture them.
When you think aboutrelationship, there's always
some kind of a value exchange.
So if I'm giving something back,they're going to be a lot more
motivated to give me their 100%.
We've all had points in ourcareer where we had bad bosses,
let's say challenging or lessinspiring leaders that we
reported to.
(12:22):
And I'm pretty sure there'sresearch on this now as well.
The number one thing that peoplesay makes a bad leader is
somebody who can't do that.
Somebody who can't communicate,who doesn't listen, who doesn't
care.
And ultimately for me, that'ssomething that, no matter what
the culture is, is going toshine through and is going to
build stronger teams.
Kate Peardon (12:40):
Care about the individual that is part of the
team.
Emilia Simonin (12:42):
I'm still a huge Myers-Briggs fan.
For me, it's these two layers,right?
You have the cultural layer, andbeing a marketer, we're taught
about conditioning.
Erin Meyer talks about this inthe culture map as well.
She says it's the country youwere raised in.
They are the foundational yearsthat tends to be who you are.
And I think, for us, it's verymuch about, and this is why I
(13:02):
love the Myers-Briggs, it's acombination of the cultural
layers of how somebody is goingto behave and the personality.
And for me, to understand yourpersonality, I think
Myers-Briggs, the MBTI, theycall it, offers a really good
insight into individualpersonalities.
And I think a leader, if you'regoing to care about individuals,
you need to understand whatmotivates them.
(13:24):
And that's been something thatI've really held true.
I came across a quote early onin my career and I grabbed it
and it's absolutely a mantra nowfor me, which is,"Treat people
how they want to be treated, nothow you want to be treated." You
know, you remember, there usedto be a saying that said,"Treat
people how you wanted to betreated.
Kate Peardon (13:40):
In Australia, definitely, we were told that as
kids.
And it's great as an initialconcept, but as you get older,
you realize, well, no, peopledon't always want to be treated
like how I want to be treated.
Emilia Simonin (13:51):
No, absolutely.
And I think, sort of going backto the different leadership
styles, this is where it doesmake a difference, if you take
notice.
Kate Peardon (13:57):
People often ask what type of tools I recommend,
and I've got a whole suite ofdifferent ones and different
tools for different reasons.
And I know that MBTI has beenaround for a long time.
And there's lots of free toolsyou can do, and there's some
questions about the data and howvalidity happens.
But I always go back to that anytool that gives you an insight
(14:18):
about yourself or your teamthat's useful is a good tool.
If you've never done anything ina personality profiling, I'll
put a link for that particularone that you can just see a
little bit about how you work.
And like, if I'm honest, I putin my husband's stuff and I like
tried to figure him out as well.
And I think I was spot onbecause years later, he did it
(14:39):
when we compared notes, but ithelped me.
Emilia Simonin (14:41):
It does help you.
And this is the thing, I feellike this new concept, again, I
referenced authentic leadership.
There is no line anymore.
If you do bring your values towork and who you are on the
outside, I mean, you'd neverdeceive your mother, would you?
You have a trustingrelationship.
You would never treat people inyour personal sort of sphere and
those relationships ininauthentic way.
So why do it at work?
(15:02):
So I think, especially when wetalk about, understanding
individuals motivations andunderstanding how people work
around you, understandingyourself, I think is just as
important.
This is where the whole EQtheory comes in, and that was
another milestone for me interms of my career.
I think when that becamemainstream, in the early 2000s
and being self aware aboutyourself, while you're also
(15:22):
learning about those around youas well.
Kate Peardon (15:24):
Yeah.
For good leaders, it's thisinside out model.
So learning about yourself,learning about your team, and
then leading your team, becausethere's no way you can lead a
team if you don't understand thepeople.
And there's no way you canunderstand people unless you
understand yourself.
So I think you've hit the nailon the head, understand self
first, understand the peoplearound you, and then you can
lead.
Don't try the other way around.
It will probably be a trainwreck.
(15:46):
So you've mentioned a few booksand resources that you love.
A couple of others that you hadmentioned to me before, Dale
Carnegie, you'd come across inyour career.
We've talked a little bit aboutDaniel Goldman's EQ, and Brené
Brown, who's a wonderful one.
When we're talking aboutauthentic leadership, she's got
a wonderful style.
Is there anything you want toadd on to those?
Emilia Simonin (16:05):
Yeah, I think, Brene Brown, she's beyond
incredible.
I mean, she's the next wave thatour people have been waiting
for.
She covers so much of this, shebreaks it all down.
And I think something else toadd to that, when we talked
about the three lessons, thethird one for me is
communication is king.
And Brene Brown, in particular,in her latest book, Atlas of the
Heart, she talks a lot aboutlanguage.
(16:28):
And I think this has beenunderestimated as well, and she
goes on to say, language is sopowerful that it can build
empires and it can crush them.
And perhaps there's some reallife examples of that in our
history.
But she talks about how languageis.
It's how we connect.
It's how we understand eachother.
And if you look at thedefinition of communication,
(16:48):
yes, it's information exchange.
It's exchange of ideas, be itthrough speaking, through
gestures, through writing.
This is something else that'sprobably really, really
critical.
And to answer the point you madeearlier about I work in English,
yes, I work in English because Ihave the words to express
myself.
Because my relationships, myinteractions are so important to
me.
So, I'm intermediate French.
(17:09):
I've only been here for threeyears.
As you said, I've been in andout of the country, but it takes
a while to learn a language, atbusiness level.
And so I think that's probablysomething else I would add to
that.
And, even today's podcast andour conversation, the value your
listeners are going to get, andthe perception they're going to
have of what we talk about, isvery reliant on the language you
and I use.
The vocabulary we have toexpress our ideas, our
(17:33):
experiences, our opinions.
It's something that probablygets overlooked a little bit, I
think, in leadership theory.
The book How to Win Friends andInfluence People.
it's all the same principles.
It's treating people how theywant to be treated.
It's understanding individualstyles and working within that.
So, even though they come fromvery different scientific theory
or concepts or foundation, theyall come back to this concept of
(17:56):
people.
And so they're probably the bigones for me.
EQ, I think this one is probablysomething that takes a little
bit longer.
I feel like when you first startenjoying the workforce, you make
a lot of mistakes.
My big mistake, I can bevulnerable and put it out there,
was my perfectionism, my pursuitof excellence, my fear of
failure.
And I think through theframework of EQ, you start to
(18:20):
learn,"Okay, you let this go."You start to be more self aware,
look inside and apply it back onthe outside.
Kate Peardon (18:26):
Yeah, I know you have very high standards for
yourself and for your team onwhat's expected.
And I think the point ofperfectionist as a trying to be
a reformed perfectionist myself,I totally understand that.
Like, my expectations of howgood something has to be is very
high.
And trying to find that pointthat,"That's okay." and then to
(18:49):
not put that on other people,it's a work in progress for me.
And I think a lot of people willfeel very similar.
Emilia Simonin (18:54):
You know, my pursuit of excellence hasn't
gone away and I still want toachieve the absolute best that I
can achieve.
That standard is still there.
It's the value I believe I bringto my organization.
But I think it's how you do it.
I said the relationships and thechoices, it's the choices.
And for me, by understanding myindividual team's needs, by
being able to coach them andgive them, as I said, the value
(19:16):
exchange, it's about motivatingthem and exciting them to a
point where they are in it withyou.
They want to achieve it as muchas you.
And if you are a coaching styleleader, you want your team to
shine.
I feel like there's a certainprofile, and this is where
Myers-Briggs is reallyimportant.
For me anyway, because you needthe hunger.
(19:37):
The hunger is intrinsic.
They need to have The hungerfirst.
And then through the way youwork together, you can apply it
to the business goal.
Kate Peardon (19:46):
And I think sometimes as a leader, helping
the person tap into their hungerand find their hunger, that's
sort of where the magic can comeout.
And perhaps people haven't hadsomeone that has spent the time
to sit down and work out, well,where do you want to go in your
career?
And how can this be part of yourjourney?
And sometimes, that's where youcan tap into that hunger.
Emilia Simonin (20:04):
Yes, absolutely.
And I think, there's a certainelement of, it's about the
journey.
And you'll come acrossindividuals at different parts
of their journey.
There's going to be a hunger forsomething different.
And again, this is where I feellike it's really important to
understand where the individualis at to be able to motivate
them.
And to even apply them tosomething that's really
(20:24):
applicable to them, you know.
Over the last decade, the lastthree roles I've had have all
been transformational roles.
And coming into the teams, ofcourse, outside of building the
trust first and understandingwhat we're all here to do.
For me, it's about putting theright people in the right part
of the project, the part that'sgoing to motivate them and the
part that's going to drive them,and it's going to be different
at different times of theirjourney.
(20:46):
And that's what you can do as aleader.
That's the gift you can give toyour teams as the leader.
Kate Peardon (20:50):
You remind me of a 20 year old version of me that
got fired from a job.
And I look back and like,"Ohyeah, maybe I would have fired
me as well." But the job I gotafter that, they had me in like
such a high performer becausethe leader could tap into
something that the previouspeople couldn't.
I'm not saying it's always theleader's responsibility, it's a
(21:10):
two way street.
But it was so interesting for melooking back to think, same
person, same drive, in thisrole, I was completely failing
and got fired.
The other role, I was a completestar performer.
So as a leader, how can you findthat little bit of magic?
I think that's a really greatpoint.
Emilia Simonin (21:27):
I think it's very much as well about, once
upon a time when we started ourcareers, it was all about, you
remember all the interviewreviews were about what you were
doing wrong.
And that one point, leadershiptheory switched and said,"Let's
focus on people's strengths."And it's a perfect example that
you've just given where,"Okay,let's work on your strengths.
and you're going to shine Andyou're going to excel." But
also, there's a fine linebecause sometimes people's
(21:48):
strengths is not what they want.
And this is where the lowcontext culture and
communication style comes in forme.
I ask people explicitly,"What doyou want to do?
What do you like?" And as yousaid, leading French teams, took
a little bit of a while to say,do I really tell her what I
mean?
And eventually, again, buildingthe trust, eventually they do
tell you what they like.
And then, 80 percent of the timeis usually what their strengths
(22:09):
are.
And I think if you step outsideof leadership theory and look at
the metaphysical and spiritualliterature that's out there now,
on wellness and what's mypurpose and, getting really
quite deep, they all talk aboutthis.
They all talk about usually, thethings that light you up are
usually the things that you'rereally good at.
And so I guess you say it's sortof just about tapping into that.
(22:31):
And it goes back to what I saidin my intro has always been my
passion, understanding people.
And I'm an extrovert, nosurprise.
and so I love people.
Kate Peardon (22:40):
Which I think is a wonderful link back to your
three leadership lessons.
It's all about the people, beyour authentic self, and
communication is king, or maybequeen.
Emilia Simonin (22:53):
Absolutely.
It sounds so simple when you sayit, but it is absolutely about
experiences and observations.
And while there've beentheoretical inspirations and
books and literature andtheories that have guided me,
again, being that we're humanrace and we're all about people,
we're tribal by instinct, it'sall been through interactions.
It's been how, this particularinteraction and relationship,
(23:15):
and what was the outcome ofthat, and take the learning and
in the next one, you're a littlebit different.
And then take that learning inthe next one, you're a little
bit different.
And that's probably been thehardest part of the journey.
I think you asked me in aprevious conversation, what have
been some of your challenges?
That transformation from being atechnical expert, and then
moving into a people, and inyour line of work, you've always
been around people.
So perhaps not so difficult foryou, but it's very much, when
(23:38):
you go up the ranks as atechnical expert, then shifting
those gears, that's probablybeen the most challenging.
And I find that's something thatjust, it's experience, it's
practice makes perfect, and youneed to get out there, and you
need to get out of your comfortzone and try things.
Kate Peardon (23:51):
And you are spot on.
There's another podcast episodecalled The Leadership Ladder,
and I talk exactly about this,we got a technical ladder, and
we get to the spot where we aretechnically great at what we do,
and we're confident and we knowour stuff.
And then we get a team of peoplethat are also technically
competent to lead.
But the technical ladder isdifferent to the leadership
ladder.
And it's a whole anotherskillset and you're starting at
(24:13):
the bottom again.
And I think we don't realizethis, that leadership is
something that you can learn andit is a skillset.
And I think that's all I'mtrying to get the insights of
your leadership lessons alongthe way to show that it is
something that you've picked upas you've gone along and that
you've learned how to do it.
And it's not such something thatyou're born with.
Emilia Simonin (24:32):
No.
And think there's some naturalcharismatic leaders out there
and we know lots of them, you'vegot your Nelson Mandela and
Oprah Winfrey, even, I think shecomes up as like a really
inspirational, authentic leader.
But I think it does come down topeople you are exposed to and
finding people to look up to,and it was no accident that
(24:53):
actually when that changestarted to happen for me.
I happened to be exposed toreally powerful, people-led
leaders.
And I watched and I learned.
And so I think, this is why Isay people really need to get
out of their comfort zones, andI'm a big advocate of moving
around, getting lots ofexperience, getting exposure to
different environments,cultures, countries, people,
(25:15):
organizations.
And so that's probably somethingI would absolutely recommend as
a leadership goal as well, toreally get out there, get out of
your comfort zone, get exposedto people and try things.
Don't be afraid to try things.
Kate Peardon (25:27):
I think that is a wonderful last piece of advice
for our episode, Em.
Don't be afraid to try things.
And I think of the adventuresthat we've had in other
countries around the world, andin Australia, and you are
definitely one that is alwaysthinking,"What is next?
What can be the next little bitoutside your comfort zone?" And
I always encourage our listenersto think of like,"What's 1
percent you can take from thisepisode and apply?" Because it's
(25:50):
all about this compoundinginterest.
And I think there's wonderfulpieces that you've shared about
communication, about people,about differences in culture,
and being your authentic self.
And I think this last piece of,get out of your comfort zone and
give it a go.
Emilia Simonin (26:05):
Absolutely.
that's where you grow.
And, this growth mindset, I feelhas been leading me throughout
my career, that's probably a biglesson as well.
Kate Peardon (26:14):
Amazing.
Thank you for joining us today,Em.
Emilia Simonin (26:17):
Thanks for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
If leadership is about people, and people
(00:02):
interact and communicate throughrelationships, then, how do you
form these relationships andthese connections?
And, for me, it's been very mucharound open hearted, being the
Australian you're in, and that'sbeen a bit of a journey as well
with the French environmentswhere it takes a little while
and when I mentioned leadership,I feel for me boils down to
(00:22):
relationships and choices.
It's the choices I make in termsof how I communicate with them,
and it's through these smallgestures that the trust is
developed daily.
And that's a learning curve aswell, that's what it means to be
in an internationalcross-cultural environment.
You need to be adaptive,flexible, open to the other
culture as well.
Kate Peardon (01:10):
Welcome to the Level Up Leadership podcast
today, I am joined by a veryspecial guest from the other
side of the world, which seemsas a fitting place for you to be
living seeing as where we met.
I am joined today by EmiliaSimonin, who is coming in from
Paris.
She's the Global Market andBusiness Intelligence Director
at L'Oreal.
(01:30):
And we met in 2010 when we wereboth studying at a university.
Emilia has some wonderfulstories to share today about her
leadership journey.
So welcome Em, and can you sharea little bit about your
background of how you got towhere you are today?
Emilia Simonin (01:45):
Yes, thanks so much for having me.
Today I am heading up the GlobalMarket Intelligence and
Analytics team, for the consumerproducts division at L'Oreal
headquarters in Paris.
I'm an Australian, but I seemyself as a citizen of the
world.
And how I got here was not astraight line at all.
So I started with a passion formarketing, which ultimately led
to a fascination for humanbehavior, which led to wanting
(02:07):
to be a part of setting thestrategy because early on in my
career, the marketing teams havealways worked for multinationals
and was in the markets, early onin my career.
And traditionally we were handedthe strategy by the
headquarters, and the marketswere essentially executing.
So this then led to me wantingto understand even more about
needs, attitudes, beliefs,shopping behaviors, which led me
(02:29):
to my current CMI roles.
I'd say, the red thread in mycareer has been very much about
curiosity and the quest forhelping my organization get more
consumer centric.
So, it's been a decade inmarketing roles and a decade
executing their CMI roles.
Kate Peardon (02:43):
You were working in Australia.
We met over in Paris.
You stayed Paris longer than Idid, met a lovely French
gentleman, worked in Paris, cameback to Sydney and now back in
Paris again.
Emilia Simonin (02:53):
Exactly.
Like I said, I very much enjoybeing a global citizen of the
world and it's been a greatcross-cultural experience.
Kate Peardon (03:01):
Yes.
One that I'm looking forward todiving into.
I was in Paris visiting, it mustbe a few months ago now, and we
got into some wonderfulconversations about culture and
being Australian and howlanguage and backgrounds all
influence how we work and whatour work ethic is, how you lead
(03:21):
an international andmulticultural team.
So I'm excited to dig into yourthree leadership lessons today.
So, we've had a little bit of aconversation and the first one,
obviously I love because yourfirst leadership lesson is it's
all about people, a bigfavourite of mine.
How did you come up with thisidea that it's all about people
(03:41):
when it comes to leadership?
Emilia Simonin (03:43):
Well, it's all been through trial and error and
experience.
Hindsight's a beautiful thing.
I think for me, where I am now,where I'm coming from, when I
say it's all about people, Ifeel like it's always been about
people, leadership from thebeginning of time, from looking
at communities, cultures,tribes, outside of corporate,
it's always been about leadingpeople.
From a theory perspective,there's been so many different
theories on leadership over thelast two decades.
(04:05):
And the last decade, especially,it's been a bit of a buzz, I
feel.
But it boils down for me now, asI said, in hindsight, it's all
about people.
And I would probably say inessence, I kind of see it as two
things.
I see it as relationships andchoices.
So relationships being, ifleadership is about people, it's
about creating trustingrelationships.
It's about how you communicate.
It's about how you connect.
(04:26):
And then the second piece for meabout choices is all about,
well, how do you show up inthose relationships and how do
you behave.
And then, that's when all theother theory comes in, EQ and
things like that.
So ultimately leaders achievegoals through people, simple as
it is, I think.
Kate Peardon (04:41):
And if you don't have their trust, you don't
achieve anything.
Well, actually you do with fear,but fear only lasts a certain
amount of time.
Emilia Simonin (04:48):
Yeah.
And I think trust is a huge,huge one.
And there's so much theory ontrust alone now, and there's
different types of leadershipand authentic leadership is all
the buzz.
But, that's my lesson numberthree, which I'll talk to in a
sec.
Kate Peardon (04:59):
Actually, I'm going to be casting your memory
back now.
But some people give truststraight up, and then it's up to
the person to lose it.
And when they lose it, it'sgone.
And other people, you build andyou earn trust.
And then sort of, once you'vegot it, you've got it.
And I remember having aconversation with you, saying
like different people havedifferent styles and with you,
you give trust straight away.
I remember the first day we metwas a click.
(05:21):
You're like,"Yep, trusted,you're in." And like have stuck
solid by that.
And I think about you and yourleadership style, this would be
quite similar as well.
You'd be like,"Right, you're onmy team.
I've got your back."
Emilia Simonin (05:33):
Absolutely, it's all about authentic leadership
for me.
That's again, speaking of theoryon leadership over the years,
that's been now proven to be oneof the most effective forms of
leadership.
Being an authentic leader isbuilt on trust.
What I really love about thisbecoming in the mainstream now
is that it gives us permissionto be nice at work.
It used to be nice at workdoesn't work, you need to be
(05:55):
tough and you need to beaggressive.
And especially for women inleadership, I feel like that's
what we were taught we had tobe.
And it's just done big 360 now,where actually women are being
proven scientifically, throughresearch, I mean, CMI that they
are, not to say one versus theother in terms of the sexes, the
battle of the sexes, but womenare being proven through science
(06:15):
to be more effective leadersbecause they naturally fall into
this authentic style.
And, to your point, trust is areally big piece of that
authentic style, but what doesit mean to be authentic?
It means you're transparent.
It means you lead withintegrity.
You're very open in yourcommunication.
You provide the informationneeded to your teams at the
right time to make decisions.
(06:36):
You allow them to input into thedecision making, which used to
be seen as these soft, fuzzyskills that were ineffective,
but they're proving now, they'resuper effective.
I think for the first time inhistory, I was reading the other
day, the Fortune 500 companies,women CEOs are at about 10
percent now, which is the firsttime.
It's being recognized as a wayto build effective teams.
Why?
As you said, it's all based ontrust.
(06:57):
And it's another correlationthat's been proven, high
performing teams have hightrust.
Why do we need trust?
Well, if there's no trust,there's no psychological safety,
there's no open collaboration.
Then without open collaboration,there's no creativity.
Without creativity, there's noinnovation.
Without innovation, there's nogrowth.
It's all linked and it allcorrelates back to growth and to
success.
Kate Peardon (07:17):
Now how have you found that correlating as an
Australian going into a Frenchbusiness?
Because your style is what yousee is what you get.
You're clear, you're articulate,and you know what you want, and
you're very clear at sharingyour expectations.
So no one's uncertain on wherethey stand, like your
communication is one of thehallmarks of your leadership
(07:38):
style.
Now, from what I know of Frenchpeople, and from the time that I
spent in France, that's quitedifferent.
How does it go for you?
Emilia Simonin (07:45):
It's such a fascinating observation, you're
absolutely on the money there.
And I'll tell you the secretsauce.
The reason my style, as anAustralian works in France, is
because I've been in globalroles.
And that cross-cultural map incross cultures, the low context
style, which is the explicit,very direct, very clear, keep
repeating the message, make sureyou understand, that's the one
(08:08):
that trumps in cross-culturalenvironments.
And that's why it's worked forme.
And, if, I don't know if you'veread the Culture Map by Erin
Meyer.
It was one of the first things Iread when I started going
international.
She says actually, much likeyour observation, I was like,
"Oh, that's why I got away withit." It is very much our style.
But at the same time, again, ifI reference the culture map, she
(08:28):
maps it all out basically oneight dimensions.
She's in Paris now as well,actually.
She's a professor at INSEAD.
But I think she released thistheory, back in 2014.
And for me, it's been a bit of aBible and it helps me
understand, not only navigate myinternational post, but
understand the French-Australiancorrelations are really
interesting one.
Because from a communicationstyle, where low context, as you
(08:49):
say, explicit, they are verysophisticating.
It's the art of conversation.
It's all in the unsaid, readbetween the lines, other
gestures and codes outside oflanguage.
It's how you dress, how you sit.
In my personal life in Paris hasbeen a couple of uh-oh's.
But, on that point where theAustralians work in France, in
terms of how we confront things,we're pretty okay with
(09:12):
confrontation and we're both onthe same side of the spectrum.
So for me, that's kind of workedfor me as well.
I'll give you a personal exampleon the French-Australian
combination, and it's took meages to crack.
As you said, I've been with aFrenchman for a little while.
But early on in therelationship, we were a
cross-cultural relationship.
And so, his communication stylewas different to my
communication style, and wewould disagree.
(09:32):
And me being the Anglophone,who's very literal, and my
language is very explicit andexact and precise, and I would
say,"Okay, but you said X, Y,Z." You know, I'd repeat the
words.
And he would always look at me,sort of baffled and saying,"But
that's not what I meant." Isaid,"But then why did you say
it if that's not what youmeant?" And for him, he kept
saying to me,"Listen to themeaning, not my words." And it
(09:57):
took me a long time.
And it actually, once I was sortof, started working in
cross-cultural environments andI had more examples outside of
that space where I sort ofstarted to understand, right.
Communication is pretty key aswell.
Kate Peardon (10:08):
I think that's such a good example.
And I think, independent ofcross culture, often we get hung
up on the words and what webelieve the words to mean
separate than what is the intentbehind this conversation, not
what are the words being said.
And I think that is a greatleadership tip in itself.
And then you add on the culturalcontext as well.
We had a conversation because Iasked, do you work in French or
(10:30):
English?
And you'd said to me,"I work inEnglish because it's like
businesses, it's the Englishlanguage.
And this is how I get my messageacross." And just hearing your
lessons of leadership, I alsosee how actually that could be
an advantage for you, for peopleto understand your style,
because your style said inFrench language is something
that would be almost clashingwhere your style in English
(10:55):
makes sense, putting your stylein French, you'd always have to
change your style when you speakin French for it to make sense.
Have I understood correctly?
Emilia Simonin (11:03):
Yes, you have.
And I think for me, it sort ofcomes back to that authentic
leadership style.
And I think when we go back tothis concept of humans and the
foundation of trust, I feelthat's what shines through when
people can see that you arebeing authentic, that they can
trust you.
They will open up even if yourstyle is a little bit different.
Kate Peardon (11:22):
I think that's a really great point, for
cross-cultural differences, butalso independent of that.
Because we're always going tohave different styles as leaders
and you can't expect it to besimilar, so the best you can do
is be consistently authenticallyyou.
Because it's when it'sinconsistent, it's when people
then start to question,"Well,what is this?"
Emilia Simonin (11:39):
Yes, and I think it comes down to, you know,
something else we haven't spokenabout, which is really
foundational to my leadershipstyle, which is individuals.
And appreciating people areindividuals.
Yes, you're leading teams.
Yes, you have a common purpose.
And that's where communicationis really important as well to
motivate people across thatcommon purpose and goal.
But ultimately, they'reindividuals.
And for me, this comes naturalfor me with the coaching style,
(12:02):
because I want to develop themand I want to nurture them.
When you think aboutrelationship, there's always
some kind of a value exchange.
So if I'm giving something back,they're going to be a lot more
motivated to give me their 100%.
We've all had points in ourcareer where we had bad bosses,
let's say challenging or lessinspiring leaders that we
reported to.
(12:22):
And I'm pretty sure there'sresearch on this now as well.
The number one thing that peoplesay makes a bad leader is
somebody who can't do that.
Somebody who can't communicate,who doesn't listen, who doesn't
care.
And ultimately for me, that'ssomething that, no matter what
the culture is, is going toshine through and is going to
build stronger teams.
Kate Peardon (12:40):
Care about the individual that is part of the
team.
Emilia Simonin (12:42):
I'm still a huge Myers-Briggs fan.
For me, it's these two layers,right?
You have the cultural layer, andbeing a marketer, we're taught
about conditioning.
Erin Meyer talks about this inthe culture map as well.
She says it's the country youwere raised in.
They are the foundational yearsthat tends to be who you are.
And I think, for us, it's verymuch about, and this is why I
(13:02):
love the Myers-Briggs, it's acombination of the cultural
layers of how somebody is goingto behave and the personality.
And for me, to understand yourpersonality, I think
Myers-Briggs, the MBTI, theycall it, offers a really good
insight into individualpersonalities.
And I think a leader, if you'regoing to care about individuals,
you need to understand whatmotivates them.
(13:24):
And that's been something thatI've really held true.
I came across a quote early onin my career and I grabbed it
and it's absolutely a mantra nowfor me, which is,"Treat people
how they want to be treated, nothow you want to be treated." You
know, you remember, there usedto be a saying that said,"Treat
people how you wanted to betreated.
Kate Peardon (13:40):
In Australia, definitely, we were told that as
kids.
And it's great as an initialconcept, but as you get older,
you realize, well, no, peopledon't always want to be treated
like how I want to be treated.
Emilia Simonin (13:51):
No, absolutely.
And I think, sort of going backto the different leadership
styles, this is where it doesmake a difference, if you take
notice.
Kate Peardon (13:57):
People often ask what type of tools I recommend,
and I've got a whole suite ofdifferent ones and different
tools for different reasons.
And I know that MBTI has beenaround for a long time.
And there's lots of free toolsyou can do, and there's some
questions about the data and howvalidity happens.
But I always go back to that anytool that gives you an insight
(14:18):
about yourself or your teamthat's useful is a good tool.
If you've never done anything ina personality profiling, I'll
put a link for that particularone that you can just see a
little bit about how you work.
And like, if I'm honest, I putin my husband's stuff and I like
tried to figure him out as well.
And I think I was spot onbecause years later, he did it
(14:39):
when we compared notes, but ithelped me.
Emilia Simonin (14:41):
It does help you.
And this is the thing, I feellike this new concept, again, I
referenced authentic leadership.
There is no line anymore.
If you do bring your values towork and who you are on the
outside, I mean, you'd neverdeceive your mother, would you?
You have a trustingrelationship.
You would never treat people inyour personal sort of sphere and
those relationships ininauthentic way.
So why do it at work?
(15:02):
So I think, especially when wetalk about, understanding
individuals motivations andunderstanding how people work
around you, understandingyourself, I think is just as
important.
This is where the whole EQtheory comes in, and that was
another milestone for me interms of my career.
I think when that becamemainstream, in the early 2000s
and being self aware aboutyourself, while you're also
(15:22):
learning about those around youas well.
Kate Peardon (15:24):
Yeah.
For good leaders, it's thisinside out model.
So learning about yourself,learning about your team, and
then leading your team, becausethere's no way you can lead a
team if you don't understand thepeople.
And there's no way you canunderstand people unless you
understand yourself.
So I think you've hit the nailon the head, understand self
first, understand the peoplearound you, and then you can
lead.
Don't try the other way around.
It will probably be a trainwreck.
(15:46):
So you've mentioned a few booksand resources that you love.
A couple of others that you hadmentioned to me before, Dale
Carnegie, you'd come across inyour career.
We've talked a little bit aboutDaniel Goldman's EQ, and Brené
Brown, who's a wonderful one.
When we're talking aboutauthentic leadership, she's got
a wonderful style.
Is there anything you want toadd on to those?
Emilia Simonin (16:05):
Yeah, I think, Brene Brown, she's beyond
incredible.
I mean, she's the next wave thatour people have been waiting
for.
She covers so much of this, shebreaks it all down.
And I think something else toadd to that, when we talked
about the three lessons, thethird one for me is
communication is king.
And Brene Brown, in particular,in her latest book, Atlas of the
Heart, she talks a lot aboutlanguage.
(16:28):
And I think this has beenunderestimated as well, and she
goes on to say, language is sopowerful that it can build
empires and it can crush them.
And perhaps there's some reallife examples of that in our
history.
But she talks about how languageis.
It's how we connect.
It's how we understand eachother.
And if you look at thedefinition of communication,
(16:48):
yes, it's information exchange.
It's exchange of ideas, be itthrough speaking, through
gestures, through writing.
This is something else that'sprobably really, really
critical.
And to answer the point you madeearlier about I work in English,
yes, I work in English because Ihave the words to express
myself.
Because my relationships, myinteractions are so important to
me.
So, I'm intermediate French.
(17:09):
I've only been here for threeyears.
As you said, I've been in andout of the country, but it takes
a while to learn a language, atbusiness level.
And so I think that's probablysomething else I would add to
that.
And, even today's podcast andour conversation, the value your
listeners are going to get, andthe perception they're going to
have of what we talk about, isvery reliant on the language you
and I use.
The vocabulary we have toexpress our ideas, our
(17:33):
experiences, our opinions.
It's something that probablygets overlooked a little bit, I
think, in leadership theory.
The book How to Win Friends andInfluence People.
it's all the same principles.
It's treating people how theywant to be treated.
It's understanding individualstyles and working within that.
So, even though they come fromvery different scientific theory
or concepts or foundation, theyall come back to this concept of
(17:56):
people.
And so they're probably the bigones for me.
EQ, I think this one is probablysomething that takes a little
bit longer.
I feel like when you first startenjoying the workforce, you make
a lot of mistakes.
My big mistake, I can bevulnerable and put it out there,
was my perfectionism, my pursuitof excellence, my fear of
failure.
And I think through theframework of EQ, you start to
(18:20):
learn,"Okay, you let this go."You start to be more self aware,
look inside and apply it back onthe outside.
Kate Peardon (18:26):
Yeah, I know you have very high standards for
yourself and for your team onwhat's expected.
And I think the point ofperfectionist as a trying to be
a reformed perfectionist myself,I totally understand that.
Like, my expectations of howgood something has to be is very
high.
And trying to find that pointthat,"That's okay." and then to
(18:49):
not put that on other people,it's a work in progress for me.
And I think a lot of people willfeel very similar.
Emilia Simonin (18:54):
You know, my pursuit of excellence hasn't
gone away and I still want toachieve the absolute best that I
can achieve.
That standard is still there.
It's the value I believe I bringto my organization.
But I think it's how you do it.
I said the relationships and thechoices, it's the choices.
And for me, by understanding myindividual team's needs, by
being able to coach them andgive them, as I said, the value
(19:16):
exchange, it's about motivatingthem and exciting them to a
point where they are in it withyou.
They want to achieve it as muchas you.
And if you are a coaching styleleader, you want your team to
shine.
I feel like there's a certainprofile, and this is where
Myers-Briggs is reallyimportant.
For me anyway, because you needthe hunger.
(19:37):
The hunger is intrinsic.
They need to have The hungerfirst.
And then through the way youwork together, you can apply it
to the business goal.
Kate Peardon (19:46):
And I think sometimes as a leader, helping
the person tap into their hungerand find their hunger, that's
sort of where the magic can comeout.
And perhaps people haven't hadsomeone that has spent the time
to sit down and work out, well,where do you want to go in your
career?
And how can this be part of yourjourney?
And sometimes, that's where youcan tap into that hunger.
Emilia Simonin (20:04):
Yes, absolutely.
And I think, there's a certainelement of, it's about the
journey.
And you'll come acrossindividuals at different parts
of their journey.
There's going to be a hunger forsomething different.
And again, this is where I feellike it's really important to
understand where the individualis at to be able to motivate
them.
And to even apply them tosomething that's really
(20:24):
applicable to them, you know.
Over the last decade, the lastthree roles I've had have all
been transformational roles.
And coming into the teams, ofcourse, outside of building the
trust first and understandingwhat we're all here to do.
For me, it's about putting theright people in the right part
of the project, the part that'sgoing to motivate them and the
part that's going to drive them,and it's going to be different
at different times of theirjourney.
(20:46):
And that's what you can do as aleader.
That's the gift you can give toyour teams as the leader.
Kate Peardon (20:50):
You remind me of a 20 year old version of me that
got fired from a job.
And I look back and like,"Ohyeah, maybe I would have fired
me as well." But the job I gotafter that, they had me in like
such a high performer becausethe leader could tap into
something that the previouspeople couldn't.
I'm not saying it's always theleader's responsibility, it's a
(21:10):
two way street.
But it was so interesting for melooking back to think, same
person, same drive, in thisrole, I was completely failing
and got fired.
The other role, I was a completestar performer.
So as a leader, how can you findthat little bit of magic?
I think that's a really greatpoint.
Emilia Simonin (21:27):
I think it's very much as well about, once
upon a time when we started ourcareers, it was all about, you
remember all the interviewreviews were about what you were
doing wrong.
And that one point, leadershiptheory switched and said,"Let's
focus on people's strengths."And it's a perfect example that
you've just given where,"Okay,let's work on your strengths.
and you're going to shine Andyou're going to excel." But
also, there's a fine linebecause sometimes people's
(21:48):
strengths is not what they want.
And this is where the lowcontext culture and
communication style comes in forme.
I ask people explicitly,"What doyou want to do?
What do you like?" And as yousaid, leading French teams, took
a little bit of a while to say,do I really tell her what I
mean?
And eventually, again, buildingthe trust, eventually they do
tell you what they like.
And then, 80 percent of the timeis usually what their strengths
(22:09):
are.
And I think if you step outsideof leadership theory and look at
the metaphysical and spiritualliterature that's out there now,
on wellness and what's mypurpose and, getting really
quite deep, they all talk aboutthis.
They all talk about usually, thethings that light you up are
usually the things that you'rereally good at.
And so I guess you say it's sortof just about tapping into that.
(22:31):
And it goes back to what I saidin my intro has always been my
passion, understanding people.
And I'm an extrovert, nosurprise.
and so I love people.
Kate Peardon (22:40):
Which I think is a wonderful link back to your
three leadership lessons.
It's all about the people, beyour authentic self, and
communication is king, or maybequeen.
Emilia Simonin (22:53):
Absolutely.
It sounds so simple when you sayit, but it is absolutely about
experiences and observations.
And while there've beentheoretical inspirations and
books and literature andtheories that have guided me,
again, being that we're humanrace and we're all about people,
we're tribal by instinct, it'sall been through interactions.
It's been how, this particularinteraction and relationship,
(23:15):
and what was the outcome ofthat, and take the learning and
in the next one, you're a littlebit different.
And then take that learning inthe next one, you're a little
bit different.
And that's probably been thehardest part of the journey.
I think you asked me in aprevious conversation, what have
been some of your challenges?
That transformation from being atechnical expert, and then
moving into a people, and inyour line of work, you've always
been around people.
So perhaps not so difficult foryou, but it's very much, when
(23:38):
you go up the ranks as atechnical expert, then shifting
those gears, that's probablybeen the most challenging.
And I find that's something thatjust, it's experience, it's
practice makes perfect, and youneed to get out there, and you
need to get out of your comfortzone and try things.
Kate Peardon (23:51):
And you are spot on.
There's another podcast episodecalled The Leadership Ladder,
and I talk exactly about this,we got a technical ladder, and
we get to the spot where we aretechnically great at what we do,
and we're confident and we knowour stuff.
And then we get a team of peoplethat are also technically
competent to lead.
But the technical ladder isdifferent to the leadership
ladder.
And it's a whole anotherskillset and you're starting at
(24:13):
the bottom again.
And I think we don't realizethis, that leadership is
something that you can learn andit is a skillset.
And I think that's all I'mtrying to get the insights of
your leadership lessons alongthe way to show that it is
something that you've picked upas you've gone along and that
you've learned how to do it.
And it's not such something thatyou're born with.
Emilia Simonin (24:32):
No.
And think there's some naturalcharismatic leaders out there
and we know lots of them, you'vegot your Nelson Mandela and
Oprah Winfrey, even, I think shecomes up as like a really
inspirational, authentic leader.
But I think it does come down topeople you are exposed to and
finding people to look up to,and it was no accident that
(24:53):
actually when that changestarted to happen for me.
I happened to be exposed toreally powerful, people-led
leaders.
And I watched and I learned.
And so I think, this is why Isay people really need to get
out of their comfort zones, andI'm a big advocate of moving
around, getting lots ofexperience, getting exposure to
different environments,cultures, countries, people,
(25:15):
organizations.
And so that's probably somethingI would absolutely recommend as
a leadership goal as well, toreally get out there, get out of
your comfort zone, get exposedto people and try things.
Don't be afraid to try things.
Kate Peardon (25:27):
I think that is a wonderful last piece of advice
for our episode, Em.
Don't be afraid to try things.
And I think of the adventuresthat we've had in other
countries around the world, andin Australia, and you are
definitely one that is alwaysthinking,"What is next?
What can be the next little bitoutside your comfort zone?" And
I always encourage our listenersto think of like,"What's 1
percent you can take from thisepisode and apply?" Because it's
(25:50):
all about this compoundinginterest.
And I think there's wonderfulpieces that you've shared about
communication, about people,about differences in culture,
and being your authentic self.
And I think this last piece of,get out of your comfort zone and
give it a go.
Emilia Simonin (26:05):
Absolutely.
that's where you grow.
And, this growth mindset, I feelhas been leading me throughout
my career, that's probably a biglesson as well.
Kate Peardon (26:14):
Amazing.
Thank you for joining us today,Em.
Emilia Simonin (26:17):
Thanks for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
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