A No-Nonsense Guide to Rolling Out OKRs That Actually Work

Episode Transcript
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emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (00:25):
My guest today is Sarah Kovich, and
she is here to talk to us aboutno BS OKRs, which I'm super
excited for.
Um, Sarah, welcome to the show.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_ (00:36):
you so much.
It's awesome to be here.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (00:39):
I think most of our listeners have
heard of OKRs, but just in casesomeone is like, what is the KR
thing they're talking about, canyou just give a quick snapshot
overview of what we're talkingabout in the universe of OKRs?

sara-lobkovich--she (00:52):
Absolutely.
So OKR stands for Objectives andKey Results.
It's a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (00:57):
a

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1 (00:58):
goal setting practice.
That was,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (01:00):
was,

it.
I could go way back, but emergedout of, or evolved out of an
earlier practice called MBO,which was management by
objectives by Peter Drucker,who's one of my heroes, super
ahead of his time.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (01:13):
it.
It's, we're ahead of this

Um, objectives and key results are a
way of collaboratively settinggoals where we have an objective
that gives us our direction andshared sense of purpose.
And then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (01:24):
and

sara-lobkovich--she-he (01:25):
results, which.
And some, that's where thecontroversy is, is in what's the
definition of a key result?

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (01:33):
result?

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (01:35):
Um,

most resources say that key results
are measurable outcome goals.
So they're, instead of planningactivity, we're setting goals
around what we hope to achieveor aim to achieve

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (01:49):
achieve

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_0 (01:49):
in terms of a measurable impact
together.

emily-sander_1_04-22- (01:51):
together,

sara-lobkovich--she-her (01:52):
they've been used globally.
I mean, I've.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (01:56):
I've

Touched

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (01:57):
touched

and trained, um, OKR coaches more
than 2000 coaches and 300 plusorganizations worldwide.
And that's just me.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (02:07):
just me.

Um, so they're in really broad use
all sorts of industries.
Use'em the challenge.
That often happens withimplementation is that the
earlier resources about OKRs getus really

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (02:23):
us

excited.
They especially get executivesexcited

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (02:26):
excited

then the executive hands the book to
their chief of staff or theirprogram implementer and
everything goes off the rails

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (02:33):
the rails.

because yeah, it's like there just isn't
enough practically appliedinformation, especially about
using them at scale.
That's where I come in, um, iswith practices that help us
actually make them work at, evenat large scale.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (02:52):
And what, what would you say the, I
know it's a broad topic, but thebiggest you see when moving from
this is a great theory and itsounds nice to now we actually
have to implement it.
And like you mentioned, chiefsof staff are often responsible
for like, okay, let me take that

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (03:08):
and try to turn it into a reality on
a ground.
On the ground.
Um, what's the biggest mistakeyou see people make in that, in
that process?

like two things together of lack of

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (03:19):
lack of

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_ (03:19):
words and meanings, like lack of
having defined terms means thatwe wind up with everything,
having an OKR and having the toomuch, too many problem.
So most.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (03:31):
most,

OKR implementations I see that are
struggling.
They just have too many, toomuch of everything, too many
objectives, too many keyresults.
Um, too many milestones that arecalled key results.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (03:46):
Um,

much overlap between their project
management systems and theirOKRs, you know?
So it's just way too much ofeverything,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (03:53):
have

where if we start with a coherent set
of terms.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (03:58):
term

are defined, that fit together like
mine,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (04:02):
like my,

the approach that I take kind of
fits together like puzzle piecesreally well.
Then we can

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (04:10):
can

have what we actually adopt OKRs for,
which is the focus and clarityand alignment.
Like it lets us zero in and nothave that too much, too many of
everything because we canactually define what terms mean
and then use those definitions.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (04:28):
So, as with many things in life,
setting proper expectations atthe beginning helps things
downstream.
Funny,

sara-lobkovich--she-her- (04:33):
Funny.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (04:34):
how that works.
Um, uh, and for the peoplelistening who, I mean, I'm sure
ears have perked up becausepeople, I'm in charge of this or
I'm involved in this.
Okay.
Sarah, tell me more.
If you were to give someone a,an example of, know, here's.
An example of a, of a actual keyresult, and here's something
that often gets confused withthe key results or gets try to
slide that one in there and it'snot supposed to be there.

(04:56):
What would just be kind of a, aquick example you could give
people?

so I work with, um, high change
organizations, high growth,innovation transformation.
So what a key result is can varydepending on the type of
organization and, uh, who you'reworking with.
Um, so I'm not saying that anyother definition is.
Wrong.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (05:21):
wrong.

What I'm saying is, in the model that
I work with, with the kind ofclients I work with, we only
call something a key result ifit's an empirically measurable
progress or outcome goal.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (05:35):
goal.

So

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (05:36):
So

aren't key results.
Milestones or milestones, wealready have a term for that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (05:42):
that.

Um, and other kinds of activity
goals are usually not keyresults.
Every so often there's anecessity to have a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (05:51):
to have

smart goal, like Quantified Activity
Goal saying

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (05:55):
saying,

do something a certain number of
times.
Sometimes that is actuallywhat's important,

emily-sander_1_04-22 (06:02):
important,

but I can break it down to like
three really simple examples.

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (06:06):
models.

isn't a key result in the model I work
with

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (06:10):
work

is we're going to launch Project X

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (06:15):
X five.

of Q2.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (06:17):
Q2.

That's a milestone.
We've already got a term forthat, that's really important.

emily-sander_1_04-22 (06:22):
important.

But our milestones are usually not
stretch measures.
Our milestones are usuallycommitments.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (06:30):
Okay,

So then there's this middle ground,
which is where most people gowith key results, which is

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (06:36):
is

going to launch seven features with
Project X

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (06:42):
X

has a number in it.
It's not a milestone that'squantifying activity.

emily-sander_1_04-22- (06:47):
activity.

sara-lobkovich--she-h (06:48):
Sometimes that is actually what's most
important.
Like sometimes what's mostimportant is that we do
something a certain number oftimes,

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (06:57):
times,

so then we could consider it a key
result.
But we always pressure test andsay

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (07:02):
say

what's important that we get it done

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (07:05):
it done by

by a date, that we get it done a
certain number of times.
Or that project X

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (07:11):
X

achieves a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (07:14):
uh.

90 days SAT score of five stars.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (07:17):
stars.

That's a key result.

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (07:21):
result.

It's an

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (07:22):
It's an

empirically measurable outcome where we're
not talking about activity,we're actually talking about
something that we hope toinfluence, but it's beyond our
control.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (07:33):
control.

multiple variables, so we use

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (07:37):
so we use

key results in stretch territories
where.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (07:42):
where.

We can't actually forecast what's
gonna happen because it'sgrowth, transformation,
innovation.
It's the unknown.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (07:50):
unknown.

But we can say,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (07:52):
say,

it be incredible if

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (07:54):
if

this happened?

emily-sander_1_04-22- (07:56):
happened?

then that can be a key result that we
aim for together.

emily-sander_1_04-22- (08:00):
together.

that's the big difference.
Uh, there are other differences,but in terms of key results,
that's the biggest differencewith how I work with key
results, is that we.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (08:10):
that

Give those other things terms, but we
make really conscious decisionsabout

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (08:15):
about

it I important that something gets
done,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (08:18):
gets done

or

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (08:20):
or

important that something gets achieved in
terms of a measurable outcome?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (08:26):
outcome?

And then we use key results in door
number two, and we usemilestones or other kinds of
planning goals.
Door number one.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (08:35):
Wow.
Okay.
So many subtle but important

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (08:39):
in your outline.
And, uh, you were very clearabout that, so thank you for
walking us through it as youwere going through the first
one.
So I was like, no, I think thatmight be a cute, Nope, that's
not a key result.
And that kind of sounds like anempirical number.
Nope, that's not it either.
So, um, I like how you walked,walked us through and, and the
part that made sense but wasslightly uncomfortable was like,
this one's outside of yourcontrol.
And that's the actual keyresults like.

(09:00):
But sphere of influence anddetermining what's in your
control and outside of yourcontrol.
So I guess in this, in thiscase, that distinction of what's
in your control and outside ofyour control is important, but
it's like the one that's outsideof your control is the actual
key results in this case.
Yeah.

Yeah, it is, and it's, I mean.
I'm a systems thinker, likeeverything for me has to be
broken down to a coherent systemThat makes sense.
I mean, I either build it bottomup or break it down,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (09:26):
it

and

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (09:27):
and

a really big light bulb moment for
me is when I noticed the patternthat

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (09:34):
that

very few empirically measurable
outcome goals are within ourcontrol.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (09:39):
our control,

hard pressed to think of one that is

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (09:42):
is.

they're always multi-variable.
If we limit ourselves to onlysetting goals about what's
within our control, we'replanning.

emily-sander_1_04-22- (09:51):
planning,

That's not

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (09:53):
that's not

writing OKRs, it's not setting goals.
We're making plans, and so ifit's within our control, we
wanna treat that as a mandatoryor a must achieve, or a commit.
That's where milestones areawesome

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (10:07):
are

and some forms of smart goals.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (10:10):
goals,

But when we want to stretch and
achieve and try something newand learn something, or go into
uncertain territory, that'swhere this style of key results
comes in really handy.
And we have to recognize we'regoing into the unknown.
It is, you know, at least

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (10:30):
know,

we hope to influence the key
result, but we don't control theoutcome

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (10:36):
outcome

if we only set goals.
That we control the outcome of,we're not thinking big enough
about what could be possible.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (10:46):
And I think, you know, when you talk
about influence, that's thecurrency that a chief of staff
works in.
So you're speaking, speaking ourlanguage.
And I think too, when you, youhad mentioned the term stretch
goal a couple of times, and whenyou were describing, know, five
star reviews at the end of this90 day launch, um, example, was
almost inspiring.

(11:06):
It was almost like, oh, I'mmotivated at a different, like
more than an intellectual level.
It's like, no, like I want that,like I viscerally want that.
So is is that.
Part of the process of gettingpeople clear on their key
results is that like that spark,

sara-lobkovich--she- (11:18):
Absolutely is.
So the question I love for keyresult forming is if everything
were to go right, what would beincredible to achieve?
Like so then I love that youpicked that up because.
It's not just about having clearplans, although clear plans and
clear expectations are amazing,like we need more of that.

(11:42):
Um, but when we sit down to doour work, just knowing the
deadline doesn't tell us thatmuch about how to work.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (11:52):
work,

we might have a brief.
That might tell us too much orgive us too much information.
And I think the power ofwell-formed objectives and key
results is that when we sit downto work, they remind us what did
we all agree was reallyimportant?
What are we actually ultimatelytrying to achieve and work
toward?

(12:14):
So it gives us, this is kind ofwhy they're a chief of staff's
best friend, is it gives usflexibility about how.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (12:21):
how

How can change as circumstances
change, but it means that we'removing in the same direction or
headed for the same destination.
So we don't have the movinggoalposts problem that a lot of
us experience where like we havea kind of squishy goal and we
think we've achieved it, but wehaven't achieved it by an

(12:45):
arbitrary amount of enoughness,you know, or some other kind of,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (12:49):
kind

um, squishy subjectivity.

emily-sander_1_04- (12:51):
subjectivity

us problems.
Um, so yeah, they, they reallydo give us a shared
understanding of what we'reaiming for, but then that also
informs how we work

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (13:03):
work,

achieve that outcome.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (13:05):
outcome.
I love the phrase arbitraryamount of enoughness.
Um, that's a, that's a fun one.
Okay, so we have the key resultsand then just to, like you hit
on them a little bit, but justto kind of pin those down,
milestones are important andmaybe like a brief explanation
of that.
And then I do wanna get intoactivity goals'cause I think
that has its place andimportance to you, but

(13:26):
milestones, what would you wannaget across to people about
milestones?

so again, this is a little
different in my practice becauseof how I'm wired.
Most OKR practitioners work withobjectives and key results.
The model I work with gives adefinition to milestones because
milestones are doing a thing bya date.
In the model I work with,milestones are committed.

(13:51):
They're not stretch goalsbecause our milestones have all
sorts of dependencies and otherthings are dependent on them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (14:00):
on them,

So we

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (14:02):
we

have a date certain that that's gonna
be done.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (14:05):
be

And so that further distinguishes
milestones from key results thatour key results are stretch.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (14:11):
key edge,

Our milestones are committed or
mandatory goals, um, whichsometimes we don't make our
mandatory goals and that's life.
But when we're setting and we'rethinking of them as mandatory or
committed, because then we canmanage all the dependencies and
everyone has the informationthey need in order to do

(14:31):
whatever downstream.
Work is dependent on thosemilestones.
And then I also define KPIsbecause.
Everyone comes in with aquestion.
What's the difference between anOKR and a KPI?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (14:43):
high

We think of KPIs as indicators.
It's right there in the name.
So we might have

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (14:52):
have

long list of KPIs that we keep an eye
on.
They don't all need milestonesor key results.
They're more like,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (15:01):
more

um, you know, like if your blood
pressure's healthy, you mightkeep an eye on your blood
pressure, but you don't have agoal set.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (15:08):
goal,

it.
Then blood pressure's a KPI.
But if your blood pressure'soutta control and you have a
goal to improve it, that's a keyresult.
And if you wanna improve it by adate, that's a milestone.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (15:22):
Hmm, gotcha it.
So for KPIs, when I was chief ofstaff, we use KPIs in different
contexts, but I'm wondering ifthis following analogy holds.
Let's say you're a pilot andyou're in the cockpit driving a
plane and you're kind of oncruise control towards your
destination.
Everything's going fine, but thepilot's still looking at their
dashboard to say like, okay,there's a wind, speed is the

(15:42):
tilt, is the engine running?
And if those KPIs look good,like keep going.
If something starts blinking orflaring or sirening or whatever,
then you pay closer attention toit.
Is that a rough analogy to

Absolutely.
Yeah, that's a perfect.
It's basically the metrics, ourscorecards, our dashboards that
we are monitoring.
'cause we need to keep an eye on'em and make sure they stay in
the healthy zone.
Um, but

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (16:09):
but

we don't have to create goals
around them unless they needimproving, and that's where our
key results come in.
Again, that's another way toreduce the too much, too many
issue.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (16:22):
Yes.
Okay.
And then, okay, I wanna get,there's so much I wanna get to.
You're saying so much goodstuff.
But just to hit on before Iforget the activity

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (16:30):
would talk to my team a lot about.
There's, there's like thingslike drop dead dates and
deadlines and these kind of moreconcrete goals, but then there's
like the, what I call processgoals where it's like you have
to run the process andsometimes, the habits and the
process and the things you doover and over again are what
Bill too, the end result.
So I'm just wondering kind ofyour, your take on, um, process

(16:53):
goals or activity goals.

Yeah, so I am less specific there
because most organizations arealready up and running in terms
of their activity planning andactivity management.
Every so often I work with anorganization that isn't, but
most organizations I work withalready have their guidelines

(17:16):
around how their deliverysystems work.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (17:19):
and

And so then we're

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (17:21):
then

merging OKRs into that existing delivery
system.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (17:26):
Done.

but for me personally, I'm right
there with you.
We have

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (17:30):
We have

our, um, process or progress
activities that we have to dosomething a certain number of
times, you know, and we have ourmilestones.
And so that same structureapplies to activity goals and
activity planning.
Um, and it's nice and consistenttoo.
'cause then just like with ourkey results, we can have process

(17:53):
or progress, key results andoutcome,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (17:55):
Outcome,

So we might have leading indicators
that are those process type keyresults

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (18:02):
results

and we might have those big lagging
outcomes.
Um, so yeah, it's, it soundslike a lot of things and
sometimes people

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (18:11):
people

look at me and they're like, do we
really have to learn all thesewords?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (18:15):
these words,

I'm like, it's really not that many.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (18:17):
that many.

It's very coherent.
Like it, I have a very simplepicture of this that keeps it
organized and words matter.

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (18:27):
matter.

they're how we establish our shared
meaning.
So it's not too many words tolearn.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (18:35):
Uh,

especially 'cause a lot of them are words
we're using at work anyway, andeveryone just has a different
definition for'em.
So

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (18:42):
Yes.

it's just kind of cleaning up.
What's already, what's alreadyhappening?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (18:49):
So it sounds like the first step is
baselining the definition ofterms, and it might be going
into a company where there'snothing at all.
So it's like, okay, let me justtell you the terms, and it might
be, I.
There's an existing process thatyou have to redefine or kind of
say, Hey, you used to use thisword and now that means this.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout how to implement this

(19:12):
program successfully?
Let's say there is maybe anascent version of like, we kind
of did this in a spreadsheet andMatt has a napkin over there
that he keeps track of stuff on.
Like, can you help us likemature this process though, um,
and move it to the next stage?
How would you go about actuallyimplementing, um, your KOKR
process?

So I start with not changing what's
working.
So anything that's working, wedon't change.
There's no reason to changeanything that's working.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (19:39):
working.

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (19:40):
Um,

I implement typically.
Following a really similarprocess where

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (19:49):
where

I work with the CEO, ideally, the
CEO or a senior most leaderfirst to develop company level
OKRs or top level OKRs.
It's usually the

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (20:03):
the

senior executive and their chief of
staff and one or two otherstrategic right hand partners.
Um.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (20:11):
Um,

We do that on purpose because if
the CEO doesn't get with theprogram of the words and
meanings, then we're all wastingour time here.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (20:20):
time here.

So, so, um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (20:23):
um,

so we usually start at the top of
the org when possible.
Sometimes that isn't the case,but I do a lot of education that
doesn't start at the top, butwhen we're implementing or
rebooting OKRs, I see the.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (20:37):
I

Biggest,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (20:38):
biggest,

gains when we get the senior most
leader with the program.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (20:43):
the

So start at the company level,

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (20:45):
level.

we have all sorts of different ways
to

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (20:48):
to

support or roll out to other levels and
parts of the organization.
Um, but yeah, getting thatsenior most leader to learn the
words and meanings enough

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (21:00):
math

to be able to model that difference
between what's a commit.

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (21:06):
commit,

What's a commit and how do I hold
myself responsible?
Or how do I hold us responsiblefor commits?
And what do we do when we don'tachieve our commits?
Versus

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (21:16):
versus

are our stretches and I'm gonna
stretch really big and you'regonna see me fail, and you're
gonna see me learn from failure.
Like all of that behavior issuper important, and that's the
part that not everyone paysquite enough attention to.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (21:35):
and if you had a case where.
There's, let's say, I don'tknow, dozens upon dozens of
existing OKRs, milestones, KPIs,things that are called these
things.
Um, and, and you've talked aboutlike the, a, a common problem is
having too many of these thingslike just keep it simple people.
How do you go aboutconsolidating down to here's
what you actually mean, or hereare the most meaningful ones.

I'm like doing a little happy dance
'cause this is one of myfavorite things to do.
Um, when I come into a situationwith existing OKRs, I do the
world's fastest audit.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (22:07):
Audit.

sorts of tricks for being able to do
it quickly so

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (22:10):
trade, so

I can come into an organization
that has hundreds of OKRs andrun my assessment on them

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (22:17):
on

them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (22:19):
them

of these are milestones.
That already exist in yourproject plans.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (22:25):
plan.

The other 8% are quantified activity
goals is what's most important,that those things happen that
number of times.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (22:34):
of

Or do we wanna talk about what
we're really trying to achieve?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (22:37):
achieve?

it's really fun to be able to show
folks the math

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (22:43):
math.

on that because then they, you
know, it's like

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (22:46):
know, it's

even if folks are a little skeptical
when they see that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (22:50):
see

sara-lobkovich--sh (22:50):
Quantitative assessment.
They're like, ah, I see theproblem.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (22:53):
the

Ah, I see, you know, maybe we can
try this.
Maybe I will give this anothertry.
You know, because they canactually

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (22:59):
Actually

the issues and almost like,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (23:02):
like,

uh, change talk themselves about
where we need to go.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (23:08):
go.

But when I come in and I'm
supporting OKR creation.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (23:14):
free,

I look at the big system of
existing OKRs just to see ifthere's anything there that
needs to survive.
But typically I'm starting withtheir

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (23:26):
with

vision, their

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (23:28):
their.

strategy, whatever strategy doc they have.
If it's a year strategy or athree year or a 10 year,
basically, what are theirpurpose documents?
And so

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (23:40):
And

I work with leaders starting there
to say.
What's your purpose?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (23:44):
purpose?

Why are we here?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (23:47):
are we there?

What's most important to achieve?
Why does it matter?
And then how do we quantifysuccess?
Um, so it's pretty rare when Icome in,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (23:57):
in,

you know, it's not that the past OKR
work is wasted because peoplehave learned a ton

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (24:03):
on

whatever they've done in the past.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (24:05):
past.

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (24:07):
Um,

is pretty rare to see a lot of key
results.
Kind of

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (24:13):
kind of

come through that process.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (24:16):
um,

just because there's no incentive to
write a proper key result if youhave the option of writing a
milestone, like who is gonnasign up for a measurable outcome

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (24:30):
outcome?

can just say, I'm gonna do this
thing by a date,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (24:34):
date,

no one in their right mind.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (24:35):
right

And so the minute the OKR practice
allows milestones in.
We just tend to see everythingbecome a milestone

emily-sander_1_04-22- (24:43):
milestone

set of key results.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (24:45):
results.

so when I come in, that's what I
see the most.
Um, so those milestones survivein the delivery planning, but,
but they don't have to be keyresults.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (24:57):
And what timeframe are we typically
talking about in terms of like,what are we trying to achieve?
Like, like at all, like why dowe exist as a company or like in
the next 18 months type ofthing?
Or what timeframe would yousuggest working with?

Awesome question.
So the cadence that I find themost valuable, and it varies,
but, um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (25:15):
but

but the default that I work with is
we work at the company level onan annual basis, and then we
work within the company on a, Ilove a trimester basis, so
almost everyone does a quarterlybasis, um, because they have to
line up with quarters for otherexternal reasons.
But man, trimester Lee.

(25:37):
Objectives and key results areincredible'cause then

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (25:40):
because

we only have, you know, two reset
cycles and then we're resettingfor the year.
So we don't have as much

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (25:48):
as

sara-lobkovich-- (25:48):
administrative overhead being spent on creating
or updating our OKRs,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (25:54):
OKRs

and it gives us a little bit longer
to achieve them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (25:57):
to

Than if we're working quarterly.
Um, so I do a lot of quarterly,you know, annual at the company
level quarterly in the org.
But I personally do annualtrimester league and, um, I just
think we get a little bit morebang for the buck when we do
OKRs on a trimester basis.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (26:19):
And the different levels you've
mentioned company level, andthen within the org.
Are there like department, team,individual, how does, how do
you, uh, recommend that goes

Yeah, so conventional or traditional
approaches talk about cascading,

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (26:30):
casing

and taking OKRs, kind of starting at
the top of the organization andgoing sequentially down through
the layers of the organization.
Sometimes many, multiple layers.
So a lot of clients who come tome have tried to implement OKRs
at three or four or five levels,or they've tried to localize

(26:52):
OKRs all the way down toindividual responsibility.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (26:57):
Um,

found even in very large
organizations, we have betterresults with creating awesome
best practice company levelOKRs, and then one layer of
localization into the functions.
'cause then we've gotcross-functional company level
OKRs

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (27:17):
pr,

and functional localized OKRs and in
a lot of companies.
That's all the downwardlocalization that has to happen.
From there,

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (27:29):
there.

the rest of the organization's,
teams, and people can look upand say, Hmm, do I need to
create an OKR for this project?
Or do I need a project plan?
Do I, you know, would I benefitfrom setting a smart goal for
this or

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (27:43):
or

a key result?
You know?
And so it lets

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (27:46):
consults

two really solid levels of key
results,

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (27:50):
results

answers the questions.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (27:53):
question

People need answered to be able to
align upward,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (27:57):
out work.

and sometimes we do have key results
that roll down below that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (28:03):
that,

But I just from a systemic
standpoint, having done a lot ofimplementations with three or
four or five or even six levelsof localization, what I started
to see is once we got thecompany level and the

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (28:19):
the

L two OKRs actually written well.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (28:22):
well.

Then when we'd go to set the L three
key results OKRs, we'd sit downto set the L three key results
and be looking around and belike, well, we kind of know what
we like, we, that tells us whatwe need.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (28:34):
we

You know, we don't need to create
more key results for ourselves.
Um, and so

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (28:41):
Um, and

that is, you know, again, that's a
little different

emily-sander_1_04-22- (28:45):
different

with other practitioners, but that's
what I've found to be the mostsuccessful.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (28:52):
when you were saying that, what came
to mind is an exercise of trustwith the leaders of those.
Of those functional groups to,okay.
You know, your L twos noworganize and orchestrate your
teams to, to do these, toachieve these.
And there's, you know, ahundred, uh, different ways that
you can, you can, you can putpeople in different places and

(29:14):
have them focus on differentthings to achieve that, but

Yep.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (29:16):
let them figure out the how.
They know the

Yes, exactly.
Exactly.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (29:21):
Okay.
Well you mentioned, um.
management and, and oftentimeschiefs of staff are, are
parachuting into, alright, like,we've, we've gotta change this
thing.
Uh, maybe it's like a leadershipchange.
Maybe it's a reorg, maybe it'san industry shift.
But, um, in terms of, changemanagement, I, and I guess maybe
you said quarterly or trimester,which is another phrase I like

(29:44):
trimester.
If you need to change an OKR orum.
within that?
How, how do you go about doingthat?
What's the best practice there?

Yeah, so the best practice that I
coach is that we.
Think of our objectives and keyresults as experiments in how to
do better.

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (30:04):
better,

we write them very quickly.
We don't over deliberate, wedon't overthink, we don't try
and make'em perfect.
Um, which again, that'sdifferent from most KR
approaches.

emily-sander_1_04-2 (30:15):
approaches.
Um,

but we write'em quickly.
We get'em to a place where wecan start learning by working
toward them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (30:23):
with them.

And then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (30:24):
then

I coach is we don't change them.
During the goal term.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (30:30):
term.

if circumstances change, we might

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (30:34):
might

pause a key result.
If it's sending us in the wrongdirection

emily-sander_1_04-22- (30:39):
direction

or,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (30:41):
or, um,

you know, if something new comes up
and we have to add a key result,we might add a key result.
But if we

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (30:52):
if we

tempted.
To adjust a key result becausewe're behind pace.
We don't do that because what wewould wanna do, you know, we
wanna have that retrospective atthe

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (31:04):
at

end of the goal term.
So if it's just a matter of weget into it and we're like, oh
my gosh, we're not gonna achievethis, or we have some kind of
circumstance change, we letthose ride because then we get
the opportunity to retrospectivethem if we change our OKRs.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (31:22):
OKRs

As we go,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (31:25):
know

miss that continuous learning
opportunity, and that's thatcontinuous learning is what's
really important.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (31:34):
And just to check, when you say goal
term, or is that the trimesteror the full year?

If we're working in the org, that's
the quarter or trimester at thecompany level, we still, even if
we've set our objectives and keyresults for the year, we
typically have some quarterlytargets.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (31:51):
targets.

we still check in on our company
OKRs every quarter or trimester,whatever the cycle is.
So the whole system of OKRs getslooked at

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (32:02):
looked at

sara-lobkovich--s (32:02):
periodically.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (32:04):
Um,

it to be on a rhythm that's
scheduled that involvesretrospectives so that we can
actually capture the learningsand then make decisions about
how we're gonna go forward.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (32:16):
Yes.
And I, I can think of manyscenarios that you are, uh,
solving for where it's like,let's just change this one and
add this one.
I'm like, let's, no, no, no, no,no.
Like you gotta stick with it fora quarter.
I was thinking like, if it's ayear though, that might be
different.
Whereas it's like, Hey, you saidmove quickly and make them
simple at the beginning so wecan try something.
We, we know this one's offkilter, we gotta now wait for a

(32:37):
year.

Nope.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (32:37):
like it's the quarter to trimester
timeframe.

Absolutely.
Yeah.
We, uh.
Even at the company level, weonly know so much about where
we're gonna be in a year, likewe're

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (32:47):
like we're

forecasting an uncertain future.
So yeah, even at the companylevel,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (32:52):
level annual

and key results might change if they
need to, but we change'em aftera retrospective, not based on
vibes or feels.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (33:03):
Um, and then just a, a little bit
about the retrospective.
So at the quarterly or trimestermark, is it?
Okay, now let's run throughlike, is it like a status
report?
Is it like a anecdotal,everyone, like kind of talk to
what they think about thismilestone and KR How do, how do
you like to run those?

Yeah, different orgs do it
differently.
The key questions I think areimportant are,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (33:27):
are,

you know, where were we off track.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (33:29):
track

And what do we learn from where we
were off track?
Because

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (33:34):
because

our key results, you know, doing
this as long as I do, having keyresults in the green is kinda
like yawn, you know, likewhatever, you know?
Sure.
That's cool.
We achieved, but what did welearn?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (33:46):
to

You know the key results that are in
the red and the amber, you know,that are lower in achievement or
at risk.
That's where we learn stuff.
I mean, that's where we arerunning our experiments and
having stops and starts andwe're learning what doesn't
work.
So,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (34:04):
So

so the questions of importance in a
retrospective are,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (34:09):
are,

what worked for us?
What did we learn that we cancelebrate?
Where did we have issues ornon-performance?
What can we learn from that?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (34:20):
that,

did we have zero performance and
what can we learn from that?
'cause that actually happens analarming frequency.
Um, and then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (34:32):
then

do we need to change to go forward?
So what do we need to update orshift to based on the
information that we have now forour next goal cycle?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (34:42):
Yeah.
What did we learn and what do weneed to shift?
And I think I, I've used similarquestions, and I think you
mentioned this now, but just tohighlight it, it's for the like
what didn't go our way or likewhat didn't go the way we
intended it to go, let's learnfrom that.
But also like what went reallyfricking well and like what did
we learn and how did we doubledown on that because that's
amazing.

(35:03):
Um, and celebrating those wins,I think that's.
Important and then, you know,what do we wanna change going
forward?
It could be like this, wemessed, we messed this up, gotta
change this.
Or we didn't expect this toperform so well, what do we
change to like open that channelup further.
So I think there's kind of bothin all ways to look at that.

Yeah.
Well, and the other cool thingthat comes out of it is
everybody wants.
OKRs to be more cross-functionallike that's one of the, everyone
comes in and we need to get,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (35:28):
we

we need to get better at working
cross-functionally.
I don't start there like westart working, let's get
ourselves functionalfunctionally first without the
complexity ofcross-functionality.
But then when we do thoseretrospectives, one of the key
learnings is almost always wehad too many key results.
So then it's a little easier toconvince folks to focus on

(35:51):
fewer.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (35:51):
on.

One of the other learnings is, gosh,
look at these places where wecould have been more
cross-functionally aligned.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (35:58):
So

So instead of sitting in the
planning room trying to decidehow to work better
cross-functionally, we can sitin the retrospective room and
say,

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (36:08):
Mm-hmm.

Ooh, look at this opportunity to go
forward more cross-functionally.
And it's just more effective atgetting people to do something
challenging, which is improvetheir cross-functionality.
Way easier for them to learnthat than to be told that.
So that's another element.
I think in any retrospective,like even outside of OKRs,

(36:31):
that's one of the other bigopportunities.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (36:34):
And I think that's a key point to
hit on, especially for chiefs ofstaff.
So chiefs of staff listening whomight go, okay, I'm rolling this
thing out for the first time,let me, let me go on functional
basis here.
And then at the first or secondretrospective, it might become
just apparent that thecross-functional pieces need to
go in there.
And that's where chief of staffsees across the

Yes.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2 (36:54):
connects dots and all that good stuff.
But, uh, I like that you saidthat,'cause that does need to
come in at some point.

Well, and you might even, so I have a
background.
In chief of staff, like roles,like I'm definitely that

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (37:07):
that

type.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (37:08):
type.

And

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (37:09):
And

thing for me is seeing at the
beginning.
Now I can see the ways they needto improve their
cross-functionality, but if Itell'em they're gonna be
resistant to it or they're notgonna do it,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (37:20):
gonna do

and.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (37:21):
and

OKRs for me with my wiring and that
chief of staff brain have becomea way for me to architect
behavior that I couldn't coachor teach or force or advise
because I can let them run theexperiment that I know is gonna
fail,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (37:38):
fail.

but they only lose a quarter.
To have that learning and aquarter in the grand scheme of
things is not that long.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (37:45):
long.

we can like let OKRs, it's really
hard to let some OKRs happen,but sometimes, you know, if you
know that executive A andexecutive B need to work better
together,

emily-sander_1_04-22- (37:58):
together.

you might let them have OKRs that

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (38:03):
that

fail

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (38:04):
fail

where the learning is

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (38:06):
is,

them.
Gosh, we need to work bettertogether.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (38:09):
better together.

Um.
And then they come to thatconclusion on their own, and it
happens faster than if we weretrying to persuade them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (38:19):
Faster.
Yeah.
I mean, I wanna pull a Yoda andbe like, there, there's no
failing.
There's just learning.
Um, because yeah, it's not, Imean, it's not a failure.
I don't, I just, I think that,uh, one, there's probably things
that were solidified in thefunctional group in that first
round that's like very positiveand very good.
And then on top of which you getlike an evident like, oh.

(38:42):
it looks like we need to, I needto talk to Bob over here, or I
need to talk to, you know, ZoeAnn over there.
And if they come to that ontheir own, like golden, like
that's a golden conversation.
So that's just winning allacross the

Yep.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (38:53):
Um, but uh, I like what you said
about that.
Uh, I have so many morequestions.
Let me maybe pick like one ortwo more here.
The last one would be if peopleare like OKRs, I don't like that
name.
I have like a visceral, likenegative reaction to that.
Can we call it something else?
Can we position it differently?
What is, what is your advice

Call it whatever you want.
Like there are organizationsI've worked with where the
terms, objectives and keyresults were so abused we
couldn't use those terms.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (39:21):
Yeah,

have, um, I actually often do speaking
engagements where people arelike, we want you to talk about
OKRs.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (39:28):
ok.

Do everything you do, say
everything you say, but youcan't say the words.
Objectives are key results.
It doesn't matter what we callthese things.
I mean, what matters is that wehave a coherent glossary for the
words and meanings that we'reusing.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (39:44):
Um,

and there are days where I feel like
my practices have gotten so farfrom objectives and key results.
I almost feel like they need tobe called something different.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (39:56):
um,

but no, it really doesn't matter
what terms we use.
This is a bit of a brain bender,but

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (40:05):
but

we all think we know

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (40:07):
know

basic terms in the workplace mean.

emily-sander_1_04-22-202 (40:10):
means.

We all use the term goals, we use
KPIs, we use metrics, like thereare all these terms that we use
and we assume we're all sayingthe same thing and we're not.
So it really doesn't matter whatthe terms are.
What matters is that the modelis coherent and defined and that
the terms are defined.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (40:32):
I think that's another really
important takeaway is for peoplelistening have a common
language.
So whatever it is, like whateverwords you want, like banana,
like triangle, whatever, likehave a common language so
everyone knows exactly whatwe're talking about and that in
and of itself, even if you havefive.
Three to five, but everyoneunderstands that term and you
can use it across the companyand people get it.
Huge win.

(40:52):
So that might, I mean, that'sjust baseline stuff, but that
might just be a huge level setwin for you and your team right

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (40:59):
Um, Sarah, so much more I could go
into, you've shared so muchinformation, but I'm sure it's
just the tip of the iceberg ofwhat you talk about.
Can you, can you please sharekind of what you do?
You've mentioned the coachingand kind of the implementation
that you run with companies, butum.
Who do you help?
Uh, what do you help them withand where can people find you?

Yeah, I work with purpose focused
organizations, which doesn'tmean just nonprofits.
Like basically, if you're tryingto do something hard and you
need to improve your performanceto do it.
That's who I work with isorganizations who don't want to
just talk about change inprogress.
They're actually invested inachieving it.

(41:37):
So, um, organizationally, that'sthe kind of organization I work
with, which means lots ofhealthcare, education, um,
aviation and other high riskindustries and technology that's
adjacent to all of that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (41:49):
of

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (41:50):
Um,

but not really limited to that.
So it's basically, you know, ifyou, if you wanna do the hard
work of change.
Then call me.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (41:59):
call me.
Um,

and then I also, um, like chiefs of
staff are my people.
Um, and I am

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133 (42:08):
I

personally neurodivergent and had a very
challenging career, veryexternally successful, very
internally.
Uh, felt very yucky for a lot ofmy career.
And so, um, I do programs andcourses and other support, and
my book is dedicated to us, um,to people who struggle with

(42:32):
their careers because ofidentity or values or cognitive
style.
Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (42:39):
Um.

lot of chiefs of staff are

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (42:43):
are

super strategic and have no idea.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (42:46):
idea.

you come into the chief of staff
role through the

emily-sander_1_04-22-20 (42:49):
through the

sara-lobkovich-- (42:50):
administrative or operational door,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (42:52):
door,

have no idea what a brilliant
strategist you are.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (42:57):
you

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (42:58):
Um,

finding and enabling that is my,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_1 (43:02):
my,

that's my passion.
That's my real why is helpingmore folks.
Discover their internalstrategist and figure out how to
leverage it instead of thatvoice being just miserable in
there.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (43:19):
What is your book called?

My book is You Are A Strategist,
use no BS OKRs to get big thingsdone, and then the No bs.
Okay.
R Workbook is a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_13 (43:28):
is

a short, sweet.
Workbook version.
Um, and you can find moreinformation about my
work@sarahkovich.com or thebooks@yousstrategist.com.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_ (43:39):
com.
Beautiful.
And we'll have all thatinformation in the show notes.
Please check out Sarah's book.
But Sarah, thank you once againfor being on.
I really enjoy, I learned a lotfrom our conversation
personally, and I'm sure ourlisteners did too.
So thank you very

Thank you.
I am not gonna lie, this is likethe most excited I've been on to
be on a podcast.
I was so excited to be here.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025 (44:00):
Happy to have you.
So great to have you onLeveraging Leadership.
Thanks,

Thank you.

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