December 1, 2025 • 31 mins
Conghao Tian shares how he landed a Chief of Staff internship at Zenblen while studying for his MBA at Chicago Booth, starting with a background in music and art history. He talks about building KPI systems for the startup’s robotic smoothie kiosks, managing UChicago interns, and balancing intense work hours alongside full-time school. The episode gives real insight into what a Chief of Staff intern does in a startup and how Conghao is using both his coursework and hands-on experience.
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If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
01:00 From Arts to Business: Conghao Tian's Background
02:24 The MBA Experience at Chicago Booth
03:29 Landing the Chief of Staff Internship
04:50 Balancing MBA and Internship
09:47 Role and Responsibilities of a Chief of Staff Intern
15:34 Introduction to the Michelin Star Chef
16:53 Balancing School and Work
18:05 Applying Classroom Knowledge in Real Life
20:31 Part-Time Challenges and Solutions
27:46 Internship Management and Advice
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (00:25):
My guest today is Kian and he is
gonna tell us about hisinternship program as Chief of
Staff.
So you are going to ChicagoBooth for your MBA, and then you
are also working at Chief ofStaff Internship.
So we'll hear all about that,but um, welcome to the show.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (00:44):
Thank you.
Thank you.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (00:46):
So take us back to kind of the very
beginning.
You went to normal school andthen you decided to go for your
MBA, and just tell us kind ofwhat you're studying and how you
chose the school you're going toand all of that.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (00:59):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So, um, hi everyone.
currently MBA student at ChicagoBooth School of Business.
And as Emily introduced, I'malso chief of staffing for a
startup called Zum.
so kind of going back in timeand thinking about why I decided
to pursue my MBA, right.
So I actually come from more ofa artsy plus humanity
background.
(01:20):
I did music and art history formy undergrad and, and out of,
um, out of undergrad, I, I went,uh, I, I, uh, played music
professionally for, for, uh.
And national level orchestra inChina for a couple years.
And then I got into productmanagement.
So I did product management foran ed tech company.
Um, that kind of introduced meto the business world.
(01:40):
And, you know, I just got veryinterested in, in the business,
business aspect of thingsinstead of playing music all my
life.
So, um, you know, at one pointin my career I thought, okay,
maybe I should consider, um.
an MBA as like, you know, manyof my friends are doing that
back then.
So I applied, uh, for a coupleprograms.
I got into Chicago Booth and itwas a surprise because I, I
(02:02):
filed like a funny anecdote.
I, like, I filed my applicationin like one morning, like, like
right before the due date.
I filed everything in like threehours.
I wrote up all my essays and Ihad zero hope of getting it.
I did.
So I don't know, like reflectingback, I probably is like one of
their DEI hires because I havelike a non-traditional music
(02:23):
background.
But anyways, I started ChicagoBooth.
I had no idea kind of what Boothwill offer.
You know, I, I had a rough ideaof the academic curriculum, but
I didn't know what career pathsexisted post MBA.
So like I really.
Took advantage of the program toreally explore on different
things.
Right?
So, you know, as, as many of youare very familiar with MBA
(02:44):
programs, a lot of people, um,you know, join MBA to, uh, join
a top consulting firm or, or atop investment bank or do like,
um, you know, booth is a verystrong finance school, so a lot
of my peers will go intoinvestment management or hedge
fund.
so I definitely did explore allof that, but eventually I think,
um.
(03:04):
I found that I am more of anoperator.
I'm more interested in, youknow, instead of like very, very
high level strategy or like verykind of high level investments,
you're managing like a portfolioof 2000 companies.
I'm more kind of interested inthe boots on the ground sort of
work and, and making actualimpact as, as an operator.
So I kind of shopped around alittle bit and I found a couple
(03:26):
chief of staff roles open outthere in, in like startups.
And that's kind of how I landedat, um, a summer internship, uh,
with Ziland on the chief ofstaff role,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (03:35):
Wow, okay.
There's so much in the.
That.
So, um, procrastinationsometimes works, it sounds like
jamming that at the last minuteand sometimes it's like, um, you
can't overthink things, you justhave to get it done.
So maybe that works for you, butFantastic.
Well, congratulations again for,for getting in.
And, um, can you tell us alittle bit about, is the
(03:56):
internship completely separatefrom your MBA program?
Is it somehow connected or isthat completely independent?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (04:03):
Yeah.
Um, happy to talk about that.
I think that is, uh, it depends.
So, you know, for, for a typicalMBA program, it's a two year
full-time program, and usuallythe summer in between the two
academic years, you're gonnafind a summer internship.
There are companies that workvery closely with Booth.
You know, most of the investmentbanks out there work very
closely with Booth and also, youknow, MBB, the consulting firms,
(04:26):
they, they recruit directly fromBooth, um, the Town Pole.
Um, but this internship is likeI founded kind of independently.
Um, you know, this, the startupZiland is closely tied to Booth,
um, because they came out ofbooth's, um, new Venture
challenge back in 2018 or 19.
So they have this connection.
So I found the startup alsothrough this connection.
But I think the, the sort ofsearch process is independent.
emily-sander_1_03-07-20 (04:49):
Gotcha.
Okay.
And just to for context, you'reinto your second year, you're
almo, you're going to graduatethis year, so that's kind of
where you are in that process.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (04:58):
I am graduating this June.
Yes.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (05:00):
Yes.
And how long have you been inthis internship at Lin?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (05:04):
Oh yeah.
So usually you would just do thesummer, right?
It's usually like a 10 weeks or12 weeks, um, internship, but it
ended up turning into, uh, sortof a full-time thing.
So I interned there for 12weeks.
I really liked the team, and theteam really liked me, so I ended
up part-time for them thisentire academic year.
So I've been with them for thepast, nine to 10 months.
(05:26):
And also I've received afull-time offer from Ziland, so
it is very likely that I'll jointhem full-time as, as chief of
staff after I
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (05:32):
Wow.
Okay.
And just to be clear foreveryone, like you're going to
school full-time and you'reworking, what is it, 20 to 30
hours a week on top of that?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (05:42):
yes.
It,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (05:43):
Oh my gosh,
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (05:45):
crazy at times.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (05:45):
yes.
And you have like a family andeverything.
Oh my goodness.
Okay.
Um, uh, and for and for context,what does, uh, Zen Blend do?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (05:53):
Yeah, uh, absolutely.
So Zepelin is a seat runstartup, and it, it, um, so the
founder Tom, is a UChicago gradand.
He spent the last five yearsdeveloping a robotic smoothie
kiosk.
It is a kiosk that blendssmoothies right in front of
people.
So it's a very interestingstory.
So Tom, um, comes from aconsulting background.
(06:13):
So he was a U Chicago grad andhe went in straight into
consulting and back when he was,um, doing consulting, he used to
host like, um, weekly Fridaysmoothie hours, like smoothie,
happy hours for everyone in theoffice and like people just
loved the idea.
um, and it gradually turned intoa full-time thing.
And, and Tom eventually decidedto, um, you know, give up his,
(06:36):
his consulting career and starthis own business and develop a,
uh, smoothie kiosk.
So, um, you know, Tom, it has anAsian heritage, so, so his.
You can imagine they're furiousat him, but, you know, you know.
But he did, and he, uh, it wasvery, very, uh, interesting
story.
He won a lot of like personalchecks from his, actually his
boss at, at his bank ofconsulting firm and also a lot
(06:58):
of his friends support andfamily support.
So, um, yeah, we're a team ofabout 10 people now.
Um, we're scaling across Chicagoland.
Um, Um, we have currently fourkiosks in the field, and we're
probably gonna reach 10 kiosksby the end of, um, this quarter.
So it's rapidly growing and um,yeah,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (07:20):
Wow.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (07:21):
does.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (07:21):
Like that literally makes me want a
smoothie right now.
Um, so I remember, um, Iremember when I was in college,
my friends and I would go toCostco on their sample days and
they would always sample thatlike blender that could like
blend metal or whatever and theywould give out free smoothies.
And I was like, I wish I couldget a smoothie anytime I wanted.
It kind of sounds like thismight be close where you just go
to a kiosk and get a smoothie.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (07:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's kind of what wewere doing.
So.
You know, in terms of like thevalue proposition, there are a
couple, right?
Number one, like we're, we'reoffering very healthy, um, kind
of, um, options.
There's no added sugar.
A lot of people complaints, likenot sweet enough, but like we
kind of just hold to ouroriginal value of like staying
healthy.
Um, and also the convenienceaspect of it, right?
Um, you know, there is a laborshortage in the United States.
(08:05):
Um, just think about the barsor, or like the smoothie bars or
cafeterias that, you know, andthey close at 4:00 PM which is
just like.
Because there's a shortage of ofstaffing, right?
So, um, for college students aswell, like a lot of the college
cafeterias, clo closed likerelatively early.
And also for hospitals, youknow, for the nurses who work
(08:26):
kind of overnight.
Um,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (08:28):
Oh yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (08:29):
food options like past 6:00 PM so I
think our kiosk offer a really,really good option for them.
Actually, if you look at oursales graph, we have like a lot
of sales at midnight, um, incollege campuses and, and
hospitals because we're 24 7,you know, um, it requires a
little maintenance probablyevery three weeks we need to
restock the kiosk, but that'spretty much it.
You know, it, it's alwaysavailable and, and it's very
(08:51):
healthy.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (08:52):
Okay, gotcha.
And just'cause I'm likepersonally curious, like what is
in the smoothie?
How do you like, keep it stockedfor that long?
Is it.
Like fruit and
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103 (08:59):
right.
It is freshly frozen fruit.
So,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (09:02):
Oh, okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (09:02):
you have the kiosk.
The kiosk is relatively large.
Um, if you've ever seen afarmer's fridge, um,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (09:07):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (09:07):
like, uh, the, the fridge that has
salads and, and like pastas.
Um, we're, we're kind of similarbusiness model.
We keep them like freshlyfrozen.
Back in the kiosk and then, um,it kind of vents into the cup.
And then the cup, um, is blendedright in front of you.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (09:22):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Okay, now I need to go to forthis.
Um, so funny.
Your biggest sales at midnight.
It reminds me of that friendsepisode where Ross is selling,
um, girl Scout cookies
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (09:34):
Yeah.
I know,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (09:35):
the most at the college campus.
They're like, it's the cookiedude.
That's what it reminds me of.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103 (09:40):
Right.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (09:40):
Um, excellent.
Okay, so now we have, uh, whatZen Blend does.
So when you first started it wasduring summer.
Um, can you tell us a little bitabout like what does a Chief of
Staff intern do?
'cause a lot of our listeners.
Are very, you know, veryfamiliar with startup chief of
staff, um, you know, chief ofstaff at large multinational
companies.
(10:00):
But I think internship might benew for a lot of people.
So can you just describe yourexperience at the beginning of
your internship?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (10:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, I mean the internship ismeant to turn into a full-time
job.
Like, I mean, hopefully, right?
Like, um, if you're not likemilking free labor, you're
hiring an internship hopefullysort of as a trial period, and
then it's hopefully convertsinto a full-time hire.
But I can definitely kind oftalk a little bit about my
experience when I started aninternship.
So joined Zumba and um, I hadlike very, very limited
(10:29):
understanding of what a chief ofstaff is, right?
So, um, you know, I know it waskind of high up there.
I wasn't exactly sure how it'sdifferentiated from an EA role,
executive assistant role, and,um, I wasn't exactly sure how is
it different from a COO role.
So, um, I went into into ZEBlend and the first week was
just.
(10:50):
Um, just overwhelmed byinformation, right?
So, um, you know, if you'relike, say you're a marketing
hire, all you need to care aboutis marketing.
If you are an engineering hire,like all you have to care is
about engineering.
But for a chief of staff hire, Ihave to basically go through the
entire history of the companyand learn about every single
aspect of the company.
Right.
So I was kind of overwhelmed by,by kind of the onboarding in day
(11:13):
one, uh, which was fine, Ithink.
I think, uh, now I think, Ithink back on it, I think it was
a relatively valuable experiencebecause it really allowed me to
kind of get up to speed veryquickly.
And also a lot of what I did inthe first week was just, uh,
one-on-ones, you know, at astartup.
Um, the teams, the core team'srelatively small.
So I actually get to talk withevery single one on the team.
(11:34):
So that's kind of what I did,um, during my first week.
And I think I got up to speedlike pretty quickly because I,
if I remember correctly, our CEOtook a leave second week, so he
like went to Italy or something.
So I started running the companyweek two.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (11:54):
He was like, welcome, welcome to
Zen.
Bye.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (11:57):
yeah, exactly.
So he did that.
And then there was a couplepeople we had like interns or
like contract hires, I don'tremember onboarding.
On the second Monday of, of likeme onboarding.
So I onboarded those people andI was like,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (12:10):
Wow.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (12:11):
now I'm gonna memorize this whole
pitch, like onboarding pitch andin this, like this company that
I just joined for a week.
Um, and I was doing that.
So it was like incredible timesand I, I
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (12:22):
Wow that there's like drinking from
the fire hose and then there'sthat where it's like your CEO
just goes to Italy and you'relike, you're in charge of the,
you're in charge of the company.
That's amazing.
So, um.
Then after, like maybe withinlike that first month, what
types of projects andinitiatives were you working on?
Short of like everything wasthere.
Like, okay, this is a priorityfor us right now.
Can you please help take pointon this, on this one, um,
(12:45):
initiative.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (12:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let me, uh, kind of think backon it.
So,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (12:50):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (12:50):
the chief of staff role, like it
really depends.
Um.
company.
Right.
And depends on the CEO and, andlike how the CEO defines this
role.
I think for me in the beginningit was like apparently
everything I have to learn a lotabout, um, each department and,
and really how this, thiscompany operates.
But as soon as I got up tospeed, then it, that like came
(13:11):
to a point where I really needlike specific sort of, um,
guidelines or, or notguidelines, probably like
priorities on like what I shouldbe focused on.
Right.
Um, you know, even the bestchief of staff, like.
I, I envisioned people who gotchief of staff roles are like
people of many talents.
You can probably do a lot ofdifferent things.
But then what I really did was,okay, I sat down with the CEO
(13:34):
and, and kind of thought aboutlike where the company were at
the time and what did thecompany needs the most.
Right?
Um, you know, and at the time itwas data infrastructure, so
there needs to be some.
Um, who is like monitoring thedata, you know, and also
analyzing the data, coming upwith like KPI systems that
(13:56):
define and, and monitor how thesy how how the company does,
right?
How many smoothies are weselling a day?
How many smoothies are weselling per location?
Is there a metric that measurescustomer success?
You know, all of these areundefined.
It was like, um, it started fromthe scratch.
So I did research on, you know,the industry norms, like how
retail industry definescustomer.
(14:17):
Satisfaction how, you know,different kiosk businesses do,
how different like, um, youknow, companies define, you
know, their success.
And I had to come up with thiswhole KPI system for exem it.
So, um, that was kind of myfirst very big project.
And then what else did I do?
(14:39):
Um, nothing.
Uh,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (14:41):
And just, just outta curiosity, did
you have a COO at that point?
Was there a COO.
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (14:46):
we did have a COO,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (14:48):
Okay.
And how did you Yeah.
Work together with the COO?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (14:52):
Yeah, it's a, a very good question.
So, um, you know, for a lot of,um, software companies, I think
the COO role is more like aninternal CEO.
So like, while the CEO goes outthere, talk with partners and,
and established fundraising, theCOO kind of manages the internal
workflow of, of the company.
And, um, for example, and thatrole is actually me because we,
our COO is focused on otherthings like our COO.
(15:16):
Has to make sure that oursmoothies are fresh.
Like he has to make sure that,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (15:20):
Whoa.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (15:21):
the smoothies are delivered on time
into the kiosk and all the kioskare way well maintained and, and
serviced.
So that's a totally differentrole.
Right.
And he's also in charge of likethe, the, you know, the
developing new flavors.
He's actually, uh,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (15:34):
Oh
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (15:35):
like twice, um, Michelin star chef or
something.
Like he's, he's, he's really
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (15:39):
wow.
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (15:40):
So like that's his sort of realm.
And I kind of.
into the organization.
I looked at the org chart Ilooked at, I attended all the
meetings in week one, and then Ijust mapped them out for the CEO
in week two.
And I said, look, um, thesepeople are looking for, you
know, um, more guidance, right?
(16:01):
These people are like reportingto multiple, uh, people.
And I think the org chart hassomething, has some issue here.
And I was also like realizingthat, okay, this meeting is
happening too frequent.
While that meeting is probablynot enough, like people.
You know, like changing all ofthese things like might look
like just organizationaladjustments, you know, that's
like, I think COO role for likemany software companies.
(16:22):
But for example, that wasreally, uh, me.
emily-sander_1_03-07-202 (16:24):
That's so interesting.
Like the COO is in charge oflike delivery, and in this case
it is like how fresh is ourproduct literally and all.
And the fact that he's a chef,so he kind of takes that angle
to actually producing.
Okay.
Interesting.
And then were you workingfull-time during that summer or
was it kind of part-time?
What, what did that look like?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (16:44):
time, so that was
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (16:45):
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (16:45):
um, yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (16:47):
Then at the end of the summer, um,
you went back, you went back toschool and then tried to do this
like part-time thing.
How in the world, how in theworld are you doing this?
You're going to graduate schooland you're doing like, I mean,
it's, it is technically under 40hours, but it still sounds like
quite a, quite a, um, investmentof your time and energy.
So how, what is your approach tobalancing all these things?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (17:09):
Yeah, it's quite a bit of a, um, you
know, a commitment for sure.
Um, so the reason why I'm doingthis is number one, simple needs
help.
I think I, it is a reallypromising company, you know, um,
it's seat round.
We're, we're raising for seriesA this summer.
And I've been seeing thatthey're, they're great product
and all this momentum that Ihelped build over the summer,
and I didn't wanna just dropthere.
(17:30):
So I, I wanted to keep helpingthe company.
Um, that's like reason numberone.
Reason number two is, you know,um, during my first year of MBA,
like Booth is an amazingprogram.
We have like a lot of NobelPrize winning professors and
they're really good, um, doingresearch and stuff.
But, you know, it's like you,you spend 20 hours doing your
(17:50):
final project.
And, and it's just on paper.
You know, it doesn't get turnedinto any actual real, you know,
real impact in the world.
So I just wanted to keep doingsomething that's like real,
that's like driving change,driving impact in the real
world.
So that's kind of also part ofmy motivation, why I kept doing
this chief of staff role andalso, you know, this learning
(18:12):
while applying that in real lifeis also a great experience,
right?
I'm taking classes on how todesign a good kind of
managerial.
Um, organizational structure orkind of how to, um, effectively
communicate or how to, um,design good compensation
packages and stuff like that,um, at school, but at the same
time, like, I'm applying thatright away in, in Ziland, you
(18:33):
know?
So I think, I think that's avery, like, that's like a
learning experience plus, youknow what I mean?
Um, uh.
Getting to kind of, um, applythat in real time terms of like
how I manage my time, like just,just, you know, fingers crossed,
like just do my best.
You know, I kind of commit twofull days in the office with
(18:54):
Ziland and the other times likeI'm remotely available.
So there's a lot of working atnight.
Um, there's a lot of working onweekends, but, um, I've been
handling that.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (19:03):
Yeah.
I love that you highlighted the,you're taking classes and then
you're to, to apply that in reallife situations.
I've, I've spoken with manyfirst of staff.
I wish I had paid attention tomy classes more because now I
can actually apply this.
So you're kind of doing it inparallel path, which I think
even solidifies it more in, uh,in your brain and in your
(19:27):
learning.
So I think that's fantastic.
Um, and you mentioned kind ofthe two days in the office and
then working remotely.
How does that, how does thatkind of cadence and um, like
little bit of reduced hours fromfull-time?
Dictate what types of projectsyou work on, kind of how you
interact with the rest of theteam.
Um, does that just go prettysmoothly or is that kind of a
(19:48):
thought out process that you'vecome up with?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (19:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's, it's definitely thoughtout and plan out.
So I think it actually helped meto focus more, right
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (19:57):
Hmm.
conghao_1_03-07-2025 (19:58):
full-time, like, you know, I had priorities
in mind.
You know, the KPI.
Monitoring, like the meetingcadences for, we're closing up
our seed round.
So it was helping with that.
And then we were kind of lookingfor contract manufacturers then.
So I was helping the engineeringteam.
I had like a, some rough outlineof like, priorities in mind, but
I think now that I think back onmy full-time summer internship,
(20:19):
I wasn't really, really likefocused, right?
Like, um, for all the otherdepartment leads.
They, they're laser focused ontheir priorities within the
department.
But for me, I was like kind of,uh, you know, I was doing it
all.
Um, so I think the part when Ishifted to part-time, we really
had to sit down.
Every month or every quarter tothink about, okay, what are the
(20:39):
top two priorities that I needto be focused on?
And I, um, I decided, well,well, we decided for me the
priorities are go to market.
So we, we have a really goodproduct, but we have to sell
them to different locationpartners and, and successfully
kind of, kind of map out this,this, um, growth roadmap, right?
(21:01):
So that was my priority numberone.
And my priority number two is,is the KPI monitoring and data
analysis.
So that's pretty much all I didfor, for a while.
You know, I was like, laserfocused on these two.
And of course there's like, um,drawbacks, you know, as a chief
of staff, I think one of thebiggest value add that chief of
staff can have to the companiesis the, the kind of.
The width of the knowledge thatthe chief staff have.
(21:23):
So like, um, when I wasfull-time, I used to know what
everybody's doing on the team,like what each department's
priorities are on every singleday and every single week.
And I made sure that crossdepartmental projects got
handled very, very smoothly.
I made sure that there was zerocommunication issues that was
like what I was trying to do,but when I shifted to, um.
Part-time, like that function ofthe chief of staff is kind of
(21:45):
limited because I'm only goingto the office two days a week.
So at times I need to be filledin on, on certain projects.
Um, so I think that is a littlebit of, um, that like how things
changed once I've kinda shiftedto the part-time status.
But I think, um, as soon as Ijoined back as full-time after I
graduate, I think that's, that'sresolved.
So,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (22:05):
Yeah.
And obviously they know you'rein school and are they, I mean,
it sounds like they're prettyflexible and they're well aware
of, of kind of what you have,uh, going on outside of work.
Um, so that just is kind of acommunication, Hey, I'm going
back to school at X date andtherefore I'll be kind of doing
these, these different thingswith my schedule and so forth.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
They're, they're really nicepeople.
They're, um, they're flexibleand you know, they also.
Because I'm at Chicago Booth,there's like a vast network that
I can tap into currently
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (22:35):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (22:35):
like, that'll be kind of limited after
I graduate because now I'm like,I am in the building.
I'm talking with all my friendsand all the professors.
So like I'm trying to also,know, even when I'm at school,
I'm trying to help like Zi anddo the network and, and build a
connection.
So I think
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (22:49):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (22:49):
out kind of nicely.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (22:50):
Just outta curiosity, do you ever
take, like you mentioned, um,you learn things in class and
then you apply them to whatyou're doing at Zein.
Do you ever take what'shappening at Zein, like take it
to a class like project or agroup discussion or anything
like that?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (23:03):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
It's like
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (23:04):
No.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (23:04):
like a, know, a mutual process.
I think.
Uh, definitely did that.
Um, let me think.
So.
In my first year of, of school,I like, I wasn't sure what I
wanted to do after I graduated.
So like I took a bunch of likedifferent classes in, in
finance, in strategy, in productdevelopment, like, just, just
(23:25):
everything you can imagine in abusiness school.
Um, but I think in my secondyear I'm like a lot more focused
because I know after I did thischief of staff internship, I
know that startup ops issomething that I'm interested in
doing in the long term.
I really want to be, be a verygood operator.
So I started taking class that'srelevant to it.
Um, so I took a lot of likeclasses on like management.
(23:46):
I took a lot of classes on, youknow, entrepreneurship and, um,
you know, because Ziland andVenture Capital back.
So I took a lot of classes onkind of, sort of the vc, um,
ecosystem as well.
And I often brought up Ziland asa case, um, when we, um, sort of
doing group discussions inclass.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (24:04):
On the VC point, are you involved
with kind of the, the capitalinvestors at all, or is that
more so the CEO or CFO, or areyou in that mix as well?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (24:12):
Yeah, I'm kind of in that mix, um,
because I, uh, go to ChicagoBooth, so I have a network that,
that Ziland can tap into aswell.
But I think, uh, mostly is isthe CEO at at this point?
I mean, the ideal sort of, um,of division of labor would be
after I graduate.
Like he can just.
Be out there and do, do thefundraise and talk with
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (24:31):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_ (24:32):
partners, like, you know, apparently like
to do fundraise, you gotta go tothis and that event, like, it's
like flying all over thecountry.
And, um, hopefully I can just,um, you know, take more control
of like, internally and, and,and just run, run the company
the day to day.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (24:46):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (24:46):
but you know, personally, like I, I
enjoy pitching as well, so, um,um, I usually when I can I join
the calls for, for the VCpitching.
Is,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (24:55):
Wow, that's such good experience.
Yes.
And then just outta curiosity,are there other interns at Zen
And then if so, are there otherinterns from Booth specifically?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (25:04):
oh, yeah, absolutely.
There are a lot of interns.
Um, know, because this, uh,Ziland has this connection with
University of Chicago and BlueSchool of Business, uh, we hire
a lot of undergrad interns, um,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (25:14):
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025 (25:15):
regularly.
Um, we have marketing interns,we have product success interns.
We have like engineeringinterns.
The thing about interns is that,um, you have to kind of educate
them for a while, but, um, youknow, they don't stay long, but
still in, you know, like UChicago undergrad, there are
like really, really brightpeople.
I.
So, um, they can get up to speedquickly and like a lot of the
(25:36):
times they can arrive atsolutions that you've like never
thought about before.
So, um, yeah, that's beenworking out well.
I'm actually currently managinga team of four UChicago interns,
sort
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (25:46):
Oh wow.
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1 (25:47):
semester interns.
So they're also part-time, um,kind of helping out, um, on
like, um, like customer successand some data analysis.
So, um, yeah, there's a lot ofinterns.
Um.
Chicago Booth intern.
I'm not exactly sure.
Yeah, we had one.
We had one.
Um, I think we had another chiefof staff, probably the summer
(26:08):
before I joined.
And, and she's also a, a Chicagobooth?
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (26:11):
Okay, so there, so there were previous
chiefs of staff, like intern.
Uh, okay.
So that's kind of an open, isthat, what was that?
A rotational role?
Kind of an open internship onrotation role for Zen Blend.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (26:24):
Yeah.
I, I, I don't think it was, Ithink the, the CEO really tried
to hire full-time chief ofstaff, right?
Like, I think
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (26:29):
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (26:30):
type of CEO who can really empower
the chief of staff and.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (26:33):
Hmm.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (26:34):
out of the role.
Right.
I think that like the differencebetween a good chief of staff
role and a bad chief of staffrole is like the good chief of
staff is really empowered.
You are kind of in
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (26:43):
Yes.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1 (26:44):
position loop and you're, you're like
really helping the company.
Uh, whereas, you know, a, a notso valuable chief of staff would
be like the, the executive.
Executive assistant, right?
Like you can hire a EA for amuch less pay.
So why are you paying for achief of staff and, and like
with, with a great, you know,educational background, um, to
do that work, right?
So I think our CEO does areally, really good job kind of,
(27:07):
uh, leveraging this chief ofstaff roles.
So I, um, he's always kind of onthe lookout for, for a great
full-time chief of staff.
So I think, I think that's whyhe kind of opened up the
internship a couple times torecruit the right talent.
But, um, I am.
Because I wasn't there, so Iwasn't sure why it didn't work
out.
Um, but um, yeah, so I think hehas the intention to hire
(27:27):
full-time chief staff.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (27:29):
Okay.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So you kind of described how he,um, uses the internship role for
Chief of Staff and it's almostlike kind of a, a trial run and
then hopefully he's with theintention of finding someone to
bring on full-time.
And you had mentioned you areleading a team of four interns,
I think you said, on a semesterbasis.
So I'm wondering, like, do youhave any advice for.
How to, how to bring on andutilize interns for a very set
(27:52):
amount of time, a short setamount of time.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (27:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um.
I think number one, youdefinitely gotta hire the right
talent.
So by the right talent, I meanthey have to have the right
skillset, but at the same timethey have to be like very
excited about what they'redoing.
I think that's like the keydifferentiator.
(28:15):
I think my, this currentsemester, the four interns that
I'm managing are really, reallyproductive.
Because they are so interestedin Ziland as an idea.
Um, you know, we have a kiosk onUChicago campus and they're
using it like every single day.
Like they really love this ideaand like, they flex that to
their friends.
You know, like all of theirfriends.
They're like, Hey, I'm likeinterning for Ziland.
(28:36):
It's like, really cool idea.
And, and like, they're, they'revery excited and, and very
energetic and I think that'slike.
A such a key differentiator.
And also of course, the skillsetthat they have, right?
Are they really kind ofcontributing to, to this role or
like, you know, think about it.
It's like a say, it's like a 12weeks internship program.
you spend the first six weekseducating them, then your ROI is
(28:59):
probably very, very low.
So.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (29:01):
Mm.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (29:02):
hire someone who can get up to speed
like relatively quickly probablyin the, in the first week or so
week or like first, maybe twoweeks or so, and then for the
rest of the time they can kindof really contribute to the
team.
I think
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (29:15):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (29:16):
of my take on it.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (29:17):
And in this particular case, they're
like your target audience insome respects too.
So it's like if they're inmarketing, like what, what would
make you wanna try a Zen blendsmoothie.
Um, very, very cool.
Um, okay, as we wrap up here,any kind of future thoughts for,
for Zen Blend, for Booth, forjust yourself and your
trajectory?
Anything else you would wantpeople to, to be aware of?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (29:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the chief of staff roleis such an incredible platform
to learn and grow if you reallywant to get into management in
the future, you know, a lot ofmy, uh, MBA peers, they're
either looking at investmentroles or, or like consulting.
Roles or like higher levelstrategic roles?
Um, you know, I feel like, um,probably less people are
(30:01):
interested in operator roles,but like, it's such fun, you
know, if you see like your hardwork turn into kind of real
impact in the world, I think it,it is great fun.
So I personally think thatoperator is, is a great role if
you are kind of down to like,you know, really get your hands
dirty and, and like boots on theground type of work.
I think, I think, um, it's a.
(30:21):
I think the chief of staff roleis such a good kind of platform
for you to get up to speed and,and learn how to be a good
leader.
Learn how, because you areworking with the management team
all the time and, um, you'reinvolved in the decision kind of
making process all the time andyou really see how your ideas
get translated into action inreal time.
(30:42):
You gotta see it fail.
You gotta see it.
Seat and, and you get thatfeedback in real time.
And that's like really, reallykind of valuable learning
experience for me.
And you know, I apparently Iwant to be a management, sort of
in the management office in thefuture.
I think this is, this has beensuch a kind of incredible
learning experience for me.
So I would, uh, advise, yeah,anybody who wants to do that,
(31:04):
um, to look for a chief of staffrole.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (31:06):
Yeah.
Well thank you for that, forthat words of wisdom.
And it sounds like you've takenthis internship opportunity and
just made the most of it and,you know, it's a win, win win
for all parties involved.
So that's, that's the best, uh,that's the best way to go.
But thank you for sharing that.
Again, this is the first, um,chief of staff intern we have on
the show.
And, uh, I've, I've learned alot in this episode, just me
(31:27):
personally.
So thank you very much again foryour time and for sharing your
story.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (31:31):
Thank you.
My pleasure.
My guest today is Kian and he is
gonna tell us about hisinternship program as Chief of
Staff.
So you are going to ChicagoBooth for your MBA, and then you
are also working at Chief ofStaff Internship.
So we'll hear all about that,but um, welcome to the show.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (00:44):
Thank you.
Thank you.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (00:46):
So take us back to kind of the very
beginning.
You went to normal school andthen you decided to go for your
MBA, and just tell us kind ofwhat you're studying and how you
chose the school you're going toand all of that.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (00:59):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So, um, hi everyone.
currently MBA student at ChicagoBooth School of Business.
And as Emily introduced, I'malso chief of staffing for a
startup called Zum.
so kind of going back in timeand thinking about why I decided
to pursue my MBA, right.
So I actually come from more ofa artsy plus humanity
background.
(01:20):
I did music and art history formy undergrad and, and out of,
um, out of undergrad, I, I went,uh, I, I, uh, played music
professionally for, for, uh.
And national level orchestra inChina for a couple years.
And then I got into productmanagement.
So I did product management foran ed tech company.
Um, that kind of introduced meto the business world.
(01:40):
And, you know, I just got veryinterested in, in the business,
business aspect of thingsinstead of playing music all my
life.
So, um, you know, at one pointin my career I thought, okay,
maybe I should consider, um.
an MBA as like, you know, manyof my friends are doing that
back then.
So I applied, uh, for a coupleprograms.
I got into Chicago Booth and itwas a surprise because I, I
(02:02):
filed like a funny anecdote.
I, like, I filed my applicationin like one morning, like, like
right before the due date.
I filed everything in like threehours.
I wrote up all my essays and Ihad zero hope of getting it.
I did.
So I don't know, like reflectingback, I probably is like one of
their DEI hires because I havelike a non-traditional music
(02:23):
background.
But anyways, I started ChicagoBooth.
I had no idea kind of what Boothwill offer.
You know, I, I had a rough ideaof the academic curriculum, but
I didn't know what career pathsexisted post MBA.
So like I really.
Took advantage of the program toreally explore on different
things.
Right?
So, you know, as, as many of youare very familiar with MBA
(02:44):
programs, a lot of people, um,you know, join MBA to, uh, join
a top consulting firm or, or atop investment bank or do like,
um, you know, booth is a verystrong finance school, so a lot
of my peers will go intoinvestment management or hedge
fund.
so I definitely did explore allof that, but eventually I think,
um.
(03:04):
I found that I am more of anoperator.
I'm more interested in, youknow, instead of like very, very
high level strategy or like verykind of high level investments,
you're managing like a portfolioof 2000 companies.
I'm more kind of interested inthe boots on the ground sort of
work and, and making actualimpact as, as an operator.
So I kind of shopped around alittle bit and I found a couple
(03:26):
chief of staff roles open outthere in, in like startups.
And that's kind of how I landedat, um, a summer internship, uh,
with Ziland on the chief ofstaff role,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (03:35):
Wow, okay.
There's so much in the.
That.
So, um, procrastinationsometimes works, it sounds like
jamming that at the last minuteand sometimes it's like, um, you
can't overthink things, you justhave to get it done.
So maybe that works for you, butFantastic.
Well, congratulations again for,for getting in.
And, um, can you tell us alittle bit about, is the
(03:56):
internship completely separatefrom your MBA program?
Is it somehow connected or isthat completely independent?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (04:03):
Yeah.
Um, happy to talk about that.
I think that is, uh, it depends.
So, you know, for, for a typicalMBA program, it's a two year
full-time program, and usuallythe summer in between the two
academic years, you're gonnafind a summer internship.
There are companies that workvery closely with Booth.
You know, most of the investmentbanks out there work very
closely with Booth and also, youknow, MBB, the consulting firms,
(04:26):
they, they recruit directly fromBooth, um, the Town Pole.
Um, but this internship is likeI founded kind of independently.
Um, you know, this, the startupZiland is closely tied to Booth,
um, because they came out ofbooth's, um, new Venture
challenge back in 2018 or 19.
So they have this connection.
So I found the startup alsothrough this connection.
But I think the, the sort ofsearch process is independent.
emily-sander_1_03-07-20 (04:49):
Gotcha.
Okay.
And just to for context, you'reinto your second year, you're
almo, you're going to graduatethis year, so that's kind of
where you are in that process.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (04:58):
I am graduating this June.
Yes.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (05:00):
Yes.
And how long have you been inthis internship at Lin?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (05:04):
Oh yeah.
So usually you would just do thesummer, right?
It's usually like a 10 weeks or12 weeks, um, internship, but it
ended up turning into, uh, sortof a full-time thing.
So I interned there for 12weeks.
I really liked the team, and theteam really liked me, so I ended
up part-time for them thisentire academic year.
So I've been with them for thepast, nine to 10 months.
(05:26):
And also I've received afull-time offer from Ziland, so
it is very likely that I'll jointhem full-time as, as chief of
staff after I
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (05:32):
Wow.
Okay.
And just to be clear foreveryone, like you're going to
school full-time and you'reworking, what is it, 20 to 30
hours a week on top of that?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (05:42):
yes.
It,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (05:43):
Oh my gosh,
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (05:45):
crazy at times.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (05:45):
yes.
And you have like a family andeverything.
Oh my goodness.
Okay.
Um, uh, and for and for context,what does, uh, Zen Blend do?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (05:53):
Yeah, uh, absolutely.
So Zepelin is a seat runstartup, and it, it, um, so the
founder Tom, is a UChicago gradand.
He spent the last five yearsdeveloping a robotic smoothie
kiosk.
It is a kiosk that blendssmoothies right in front of
people.
So it's a very interestingstory.
So Tom, um, comes from aconsulting background.
(06:13):
So he was a U Chicago grad andhe went in straight into
consulting and back when he was,um, doing consulting, he used to
host like, um, weekly Fridaysmoothie hours, like smoothie,
happy hours for everyone in theoffice and like people just
loved the idea.
um, and it gradually turned intoa full-time thing.
And, and Tom eventually decidedto, um, you know, give up his,
(06:36):
his consulting career and starthis own business and develop a,
uh, smoothie kiosk.
So, um, you know, Tom, it has anAsian heritage, so, so his.
You can imagine they're furiousat him, but, you know, you know.
But he did, and he, uh, it wasvery, very, uh, interesting
story.
He won a lot of like personalchecks from his, actually his
boss at, at his bank ofconsulting firm and also a lot
(06:58):
of his friends support andfamily support.
So, um, yeah, we're a team ofabout 10 people now.
Um, we're scaling across Chicagoland.
Um, Um, we have currently fourkiosks in the field, and we're
probably gonna reach 10 kiosksby the end of, um, this quarter.
So it's rapidly growing and um,yeah,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (07:20):
Wow.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (07:21):
does.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (07:21):
Like that literally makes me want a
smoothie right now.
Um, so I remember, um, Iremember when I was in college,
my friends and I would go toCostco on their sample days and
they would always sample thatlike blender that could like
blend metal or whatever and theywould give out free smoothies.
And I was like, I wish I couldget a smoothie anytime I wanted.
It kind of sounds like thismight be close where you just go
to a kiosk and get a smoothie.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (07:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's kind of what wewere doing.
So.
You know, in terms of like thevalue proposition, there are a
couple, right?
Number one, like we're, we'reoffering very healthy, um, kind
of, um, options.
There's no added sugar.
A lot of people complaints, likenot sweet enough, but like we
kind of just hold to ouroriginal value of like staying
healthy.
Um, and also the convenienceaspect of it, right?
Um, you know, there is a laborshortage in the United States.
(08:05):
Um, just think about the barsor, or like the smoothie bars or
cafeterias that, you know, andthey close at 4:00 PM which is
just like.
Because there's a shortage of ofstaffing, right?
So, um, for college students aswell, like a lot of the college
cafeterias, clo closed likerelatively early.
And also for hospitals, youknow, for the nurses who work
(08:26):
kind of overnight.
Um,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (08:28):
Oh yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (08:29):
food options like past 6:00 PM so I
think our kiosk offer a really,really good option for them.
Actually, if you look at oursales graph, we have like a lot
of sales at midnight, um, incollege campuses and, and
hospitals because we're 24 7,you know, um, it requires a
little maintenance probablyevery three weeks we need to
restock the kiosk, but that'spretty much it.
You know, it, it's alwaysavailable and, and it's very
(08:51):
healthy.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (08:52):
Okay, gotcha.
And just'cause I'm likepersonally curious, like what is
in the smoothie?
How do you like, keep it stockedfor that long?
Is it.
Like fruit and
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103 (08:59):
right.
It is freshly frozen fruit.
So,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (09:02):
Oh, okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (09:02):
you have the kiosk.
The kiosk is relatively large.
Um, if you've ever seen afarmer's fridge, um,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (09:07):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (09:07):
like, uh, the, the fridge that has
salads and, and like pastas.
Um, we're, we're kind of similarbusiness model.
We keep them like freshlyfrozen.
Back in the kiosk and then, um,it kind of vents into the cup.
And then the cup, um, is blendedright in front of you.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (09:22):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Okay, now I need to go to forthis.
Um, so funny.
Your biggest sales at midnight.
It reminds me of that friendsepisode where Ross is selling,
um, girl Scout cookies
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (09:34):
Yeah.
I know,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (09:35):
the most at the college campus.
They're like, it's the cookiedude.
That's what it reminds me of.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103 (09:40):
Right.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (09:40):
Um, excellent.
Okay, so now we have, uh, whatZen Blend does.
So when you first started it wasduring summer.
Um, can you tell us a little bitabout like what does a Chief of
Staff intern do?
'cause a lot of our listeners.
Are very, you know, veryfamiliar with startup chief of
staff, um, you know, chief ofstaff at large multinational
companies.
(10:00):
But I think internship might benew for a lot of people.
So can you just describe yourexperience at the beginning of
your internship?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (10:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, I mean the internship ismeant to turn into a full-time
job.
Like, I mean, hopefully, right?
Like, um, if you're not likemilking free labor, you're
hiring an internship hopefullysort of as a trial period, and
then it's hopefully convertsinto a full-time hire.
But I can definitely kind oftalk a little bit about my
experience when I started aninternship.
So joined Zumba and um, I hadlike very, very limited
(10:29):
understanding of what a chief ofstaff is, right?
So, um, you know, I know it waskind of high up there.
I wasn't exactly sure how it'sdifferentiated from an EA role,
executive assistant role, and,um, I wasn't exactly sure how is
it different from a COO role.
So, um, I went into into ZEBlend and the first week was
just.
(10:50):
Um, just overwhelmed byinformation, right?
So, um, you know, if you'relike, say you're a marketing
hire, all you need to care aboutis marketing.
If you are an engineering hire,like all you have to care is
about engineering.
But for a chief of staff hire, Ihave to basically go through the
entire history of the companyand learn about every single
aspect of the company.
Right.
So I was kind of overwhelmed by,by kind of the onboarding in day
(11:13):
one, uh, which was fine, Ithink.
I think, uh, now I think, Ithink back on it, I think it was
a relatively valuable experiencebecause it really allowed me to
kind of get up to speed veryquickly.
And also a lot of what I did inthe first week was just, uh,
one-on-ones, you know, at astartup.
Um, the teams, the core team'srelatively small.
So I actually get to talk withevery single one on the team.
(11:34):
So that's kind of what I did,um, during my first week.
And I think I got up to speedlike pretty quickly because I,
if I remember correctly, our CEOtook a leave second week, so he
like went to Italy or something.
So I started running the companyweek two.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (11:54):
He was like, welcome, welcome to
Zen.
Bye.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (11:57):
yeah, exactly.
So he did that.
And then there was a couplepeople we had like interns or
like contract hires, I don'tremember onboarding.
On the second Monday of, of likeme onboarding.
So I onboarded those people andI was like,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (12:10):
Wow.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (12:11):
now I'm gonna memorize this whole
pitch, like onboarding pitch andin this, like this company that
I just joined for a week.
Um, and I was doing that.
So it was like incredible timesand I, I
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (12:22):
Wow that there's like drinking from
the fire hose and then there'sthat where it's like your CEO
just goes to Italy and you'relike, you're in charge of the,
you're in charge of the company.
That's amazing.
So, um.
Then after, like maybe withinlike that first month, what
types of projects andinitiatives were you working on?
Short of like everything wasthere.
Like, okay, this is a priorityfor us right now.
Can you please help take pointon this, on this one, um,
(12:45):
initiative.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (12:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let me, uh, kind of think backon it.
So,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (12:50):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (12:50):
the chief of staff role, like it
really depends.
Um.
company.
Right.
And depends on the CEO and, andlike how the CEO defines this
role.
I think for me in the beginningit was like apparently
everything I have to learn a lotabout, um, each department and,
and really how this, thiscompany operates.
But as soon as I got up tospeed, then it, that like came
(13:11):
to a point where I really needlike specific sort of, um,
guidelines or, or notguidelines, probably like
priorities on like what I shouldbe focused on.
Right.
Um, you know, even the bestchief of staff, like.
I, I envisioned people who gotchief of staff roles are like
people of many talents.
You can probably do a lot ofdifferent things.
But then what I really did was,okay, I sat down with the CEO
(13:34):
and, and kind of thought aboutlike where the company were at
the time and what did thecompany needs the most.
Right?
Um, you know, and at the time itwas data infrastructure, so
there needs to be some.
Um, who is like monitoring thedata, you know, and also
analyzing the data, coming upwith like KPI systems that
(13:56):
define and, and monitor how thesy how how the company does,
right?
How many smoothies are weselling a day?
How many smoothies are weselling per location?
Is there a metric that measurescustomer success?
You know, all of these areundefined.
It was like, um, it started fromthe scratch.
So I did research on, you know,the industry norms, like how
retail industry definescustomer.
(14:17):
Satisfaction how, you know,different kiosk businesses do,
how different like, um, youknow, companies define, you
know, their success.
And I had to come up with thiswhole KPI system for exem it.
So, um, that was kind of myfirst very big project.
And then what else did I do?
(14:39):
Um, nothing.
Uh,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (14:41):
And just, just outta curiosity, did
you have a COO at that point?
Was there a COO.
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (14:46):
we did have a COO,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (14:48):
Okay.
And how did you Yeah.
Work together with the COO?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (14:52):
Yeah, it's a, a very good question.
So, um, you know, for a lot of,um, software companies, I think
the COO role is more like aninternal CEO.
So like, while the CEO goes outthere, talk with partners and,
and established fundraising, theCOO kind of manages the internal
workflow of, of the company.
And, um, for example, and thatrole is actually me because we,
our COO is focused on otherthings like our COO.
(15:16):
Has to make sure that oursmoothies are fresh.
Like he has to make sure that,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (15:20):
Whoa.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (15:21):
the smoothies are delivered on time
into the kiosk and all the kioskare way well maintained and, and
serviced.
So that's a totally differentrole.
Right.
And he's also in charge of likethe, the, you know, the
developing new flavors.
He's actually, uh,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (15:34):
Oh
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (15:35):
like twice, um, Michelin star chef or
something.
Like he's, he's, he's really
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (15:39):
wow.
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (15:40):
So like that's his sort of realm.
And I kind of.
into the organization.
I looked at the org chart Ilooked at, I attended all the
meetings in week one, and then Ijust mapped them out for the CEO
in week two.
And I said, look, um, thesepeople are looking for, you
know, um, more guidance, right?
(16:01):
These people are like reportingto multiple, uh, people.
And I think the org chart hassomething, has some issue here.
And I was also like realizingthat, okay, this meeting is
happening too frequent.
While that meeting is probablynot enough, like people.
You know, like changing all ofthese things like might look
like just organizationaladjustments, you know, that's
like, I think COO role for likemany software companies.
(16:22):
But for example, that wasreally, uh, me.
emily-sander_1_03-07-202 (16:24):
That's so interesting.
Like the COO is in charge oflike delivery, and in this case
it is like how fresh is ourproduct literally and all.
And the fact that he's a chef,so he kind of takes that angle
to actually producing.
Okay.
Interesting.
And then were you workingfull-time during that summer or
was it kind of part-time?
What, what did that look like?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (16:44):
time, so that was
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (16:45):
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (16:45):
um, yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (16:47):
Then at the end of the summer, um,
you went back, you went back toschool and then tried to do this
like part-time thing.
How in the world, how in theworld are you doing this?
You're going to graduate schooland you're doing like, I mean,
it's, it is technically under 40hours, but it still sounds like
quite a, quite a, um, investmentof your time and energy.
So how, what is your approach tobalancing all these things?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (17:09):
Yeah, it's quite a bit of a, um, you
know, a commitment for sure.
Um, so the reason why I'm doingthis is number one, simple needs
help.
I think I, it is a reallypromising company, you know, um,
it's seat round.
We're, we're raising for seriesA this summer.
And I've been seeing thatthey're, they're great product
and all this momentum that Ihelped build over the summer,
and I didn't wanna just dropthere.
(17:30):
So I, I wanted to keep helpingthe company.
Um, that's like reason numberone.
Reason number two is, you know,um, during my first year of MBA,
like Booth is an amazingprogram.
We have like a lot of NobelPrize winning professors and
they're really good, um, doingresearch and stuff.
But, you know, it's like you,you spend 20 hours doing your
(17:50):
final project.
And, and it's just on paper.
You know, it doesn't get turnedinto any actual real, you know,
real impact in the world.
So I just wanted to keep doingsomething that's like real,
that's like driving change,driving impact in the real
world.
So that's kind of also part ofmy motivation, why I kept doing
this chief of staff role andalso, you know, this learning
(18:12):
while applying that in real lifeis also a great experience,
right?
I'm taking classes on how todesign a good kind of
managerial.
Um, organizational structure orkind of how to, um, effectively
communicate or how to, um,design good compensation
packages and stuff like that,um, at school, but at the same
time, like, I'm applying thatright away in, in Ziland, you
(18:33):
know?
So I think, I think that's avery, like, that's like a
learning experience plus, youknow what I mean?
Um, uh.
Getting to kind of, um, applythat in real time terms of like
how I manage my time, like just,just, you know, fingers crossed,
like just do my best.
You know, I kind of commit twofull days in the office with
(18:54):
Ziland and the other times likeI'm remotely available.
So there's a lot of working atnight.
Um, there's a lot of working onweekends, but, um, I've been
handling that.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (19:03):
Yeah.
I love that you highlighted the,you're taking classes and then
you're to, to apply that in reallife situations.
I've, I've spoken with manyfirst of staff.
I wish I had paid attention tomy classes more because now I
can actually apply this.
So you're kind of doing it inparallel path, which I think
even solidifies it more in, uh,in your brain and in your
(19:27):
learning.
So I think that's fantastic.
Um, and you mentioned kind ofthe two days in the office and
then working remotely.
How does that, how does thatkind of cadence and um, like
little bit of reduced hours fromfull-time?
Dictate what types of projectsyou work on, kind of how you
interact with the rest of theteam.
Um, does that just go prettysmoothly or is that kind of a
(19:48):
thought out process that you'vecome up with?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (19:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's, it's definitely thoughtout and plan out.
So I think it actually helped meto focus more, right
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (19:57):
Hmm.
conghao_1_03-07-2025 (19:58):
full-time, like, you know, I had priorities
in mind.
You know, the KPI.
Monitoring, like the meetingcadences for, we're closing up
our seed round.
So it was helping with that.
And then we were kind of lookingfor contract manufacturers then.
So I was helping the engineeringteam.
I had like a, some rough outlineof like, priorities in mind, but
I think now that I think back onmy full-time summer internship,
(20:19):
I wasn't really, really likefocused, right?
Like, um, for all the otherdepartment leads.
They, they're laser focused ontheir priorities within the
department.
But for me, I was like kind of,uh, you know, I was doing it
all.
Um, so I think the part when Ishifted to part-time, we really
had to sit down.
Every month or every quarter tothink about, okay, what are the
(20:39):
top two priorities that I needto be focused on?
And I, um, I decided, well,well, we decided for me the
priorities are go to market.
So we, we have a really goodproduct, but we have to sell
them to different locationpartners and, and successfully
kind of, kind of map out this,this, um, growth roadmap, right?
(21:01):
So that was my priority numberone.
And my priority number two is,is the KPI monitoring and data
analysis.
So that's pretty much all I didfor, for a while.
You know, I was like, laserfocused on these two.
And of course there's like, um,drawbacks, you know, as a chief
of staff, I think one of thebiggest value add that chief of
staff can have to the companiesis the, the kind of.
The width of the knowledge thatthe chief staff have.
(21:23):
So like, um, when I wasfull-time, I used to know what
everybody's doing on the team,like what each department's
priorities are on every singleday and every single week.
And I made sure that crossdepartmental projects got
handled very, very smoothly.
I made sure that there was zerocommunication issues that was
like what I was trying to do,but when I shifted to, um.
Part-time, like that function ofthe chief of staff is kind of
(21:45):
limited because I'm only goingto the office two days a week.
So at times I need to be filledin on, on certain projects.
Um, so I think that is a littlebit of, um, that like how things
changed once I've kinda shiftedto the part-time status.
But I think, um, as soon as Ijoined back as full-time after I
graduate, I think that's, that'sresolved.
So,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (22:05):
Yeah.
And obviously they know you'rein school and are they, I mean,
it sounds like they're prettyflexible and they're well aware
of, of kind of what you have,uh, going on outside of work.
Um, so that just is kind of acommunication, Hey, I'm going
back to school at X date andtherefore I'll be kind of doing
these, these different thingswith my schedule and so forth.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
They're, they're really nicepeople.
They're, um, they're flexibleand you know, they also.
Because I'm at Chicago Booth,there's like a vast network that
I can tap into currently
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (22:35):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (22:35):
like, that'll be kind of limited after
I graduate because now I'm like,I am in the building.
I'm talking with all my friendsand all the professors.
So like I'm trying to also,know, even when I'm at school,
I'm trying to help like Zi anddo the network and, and build a
connection.
So I think
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (22:49):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (22:49):
out kind of nicely.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (22:50):
Just outta curiosity, do you ever
take, like you mentioned, um,you learn things in class and
then you apply them to whatyou're doing at Zein.
Do you ever take what'shappening at Zein, like take it
to a class like project or agroup discussion or anything
like that?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (23:03):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
It's like
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (23:04):
No.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (23:04):
like a, know, a mutual process.
I think.
Uh, definitely did that.
Um, let me think.
So.
In my first year of, of school,I like, I wasn't sure what I
wanted to do after I graduated.
So like I took a bunch of likedifferent classes in, in
finance, in strategy, in productdevelopment, like, just, just
(23:25):
everything you can imagine in abusiness school.
Um, but I think in my secondyear I'm like a lot more focused
because I know after I did thischief of staff internship, I
know that startup ops issomething that I'm interested in
doing in the long term.
I really want to be, be a verygood operator.
So I started taking class that'srelevant to it.
Um, so I took a lot of likeclasses on like management.
(23:46):
I took a lot of classes on, youknow, entrepreneurship and, um,
you know, because Ziland andVenture Capital back.
So I took a lot of classes onkind of, sort of the vc, um,
ecosystem as well.
And I often brought up Ziland asa case, um, when we, um, sort of
doing group discussions inclass.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (24:04):
On the VC point, are you involved
with kind of the, the capitalinvestors at all, or is that
more so the CEO or CFO, or areyou in that mix as well?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (24:12):
Yeah, I'm kind of in that mix, um,
because I, uh, go to ChicagoBooth, so I have a network that,
that Ziland can tap into aswell.
But I think, uh, mostly is isthe CEO at at this point?
I mean, the ideal sort of, um,of division of labor would be
after I graduate.
Like he can just.
Be out there and do, do thefundraise and talk with
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (24:31):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_ (24:32):
partners, like, you know, apparently like
to do fundraise, you gotta go tothis and that event, like, it's
like flying all over thecountry.
And, um, hopefully I can just,um, you know, take more control
of like, internally and, and,and just run, run the company
the day to day.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (24:46):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (24:46):
but you know, personally, like I, I
enjoy pitching as well, so, um,um, I usually when I can I join
the calls for, for the VCpitching.
Is,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (24:55):
Wow, that's such good experience.
Yes.
And then just outta curiosity,are there other interns at Zen
And then if so, are there otherinterns from Booth specifically?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (25:04):
oh, yeah, absolutely.
There are a lot of interns.
Um, know, because this, uh,Ziland has this connection with
University of Chicago and BlueSchool of Business, uh, we hire
a lot of undergrad interns, um,
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (25:14):
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025 (25:15):
regularly.
Um, we have marketing interns,we have product success interns.
We have like engineeringinterns.
The thing about interns is that,um, you have to kind of educate
them for a while, but, um, youknow, they don't stay long, but
still in, you know, like UChicago undergrad, there are
like really, really brightpeople.
I.
So, um, they can get up to speedquickly and like a lot of the
(25:36):
times they can arrive atsolutions that you've like never
thought about before.
So, um, yeah, that's beenworking out well.
I'm actually currently managinga team of four UChicago interns,
sort
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_08 (25:46):
Oh wow.
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1 (25:47):
semester interns.
So they're also part-time, um,kind of helping out, um, on
like, um, like customer successand some data analysis.
So, um, yeah, there's a lot ofinterns.
Um.
Chicago Booth intern.
I'm not exactly sure.
Yeah, we had one.
We had one.
Um, I think we had another chiefof staff, probably the summer
(26:08):
before I joined.
And, and she's also a, a Chicagobooth?
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (26:11):
Okay, so there, so there were previous
chiefs of staff, like intern.
Uh, okay.
So that's kind of an open, isthat, what was that?
A rotational role?
Kind of an open internship onrotation role for Zen Blend.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (26:24):
Yeah.
I, I, I don't think it was, Ithink the, the CEO really tried
to hire full-time chief ofstaff, right?
Like, I think
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (26:29):
Okay.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (26:30):
type of CEO who can really empower
the chief of staff and.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (26:33):
Hmm.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (26:34):
out of the role.
Right.
I think that like the differencebetween a good chief of staff
role and a bad chief of staffrole is like the good chief of
staff is really empowered.
You are kind of in
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_ (26:43):
Yes.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1 (26:44):
position loop and you're, you're like
really helping the company.
Uh, whereas, you know, a, a notso valuable chief of staff would
be like the, the executive.
Executive assistant, right?
Like you can hire a EA for amuch less pay.
So why are you paying for achief of staff and, and like
with, with a great, you know,educational background, um, to
do that work, right?
So I think our CEO does areally, really good job kind of,
(27:07):
uh, leveraging this chief ofstaff roles.
So I, um, he's always kind of onthe lookout for, for a great
full-time chief of staff.
So I think, I think that's whyhe kind of opened up the
internship a couple times torecruit the right talent.
But, um, I am.
Because I wasn't there, so Iwasn't sure why it didn't work
out.
Um, but um, yeah, so I think hehas the intention to hire
(27:27):
full-time chief staff.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (27:29):
Okay.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So you kind of described how he,um, uses the internship role for
Chief of Staff and it's almostlike kind of a, a trial run and
then hopefully he's with theintention of finding someone to
bring on full-time.
And you had mentioned you areleading a team of four interns,
I think you said, on a semesterbasis.
So I'm wondering, like, do youhave any advice for.
How to, how to bring on andutilize interns for a very set
(27:52):
amount of time, a short setamount of time.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (27:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um.
I think number one, youdefinitely gotta hire the right
talent.
So by the right talent, I meanthey have to have the right
skillset, but at the same timethey have to be like very
excited about what they'redoing.
I think that's like the keydifferentiator.
(28:15):
I think my, this currentsemester, the four interns that
I'm managing are really, reallyproductive.
Because they are so interestedin Ziland as an idea.
Um, you know, we have a kiosk onUChicago campus and they're
using it like every single day.
Like they really love this ideaand like, they flex that to
their friends.
You know, like all of theirfriends.
They're like, Hey, I'm likeinterning for Ziland.
(28:36):
It's like, really cool idea.
And, and like, they're, they'revery excited and, and very
energetic and I think that'slike.
A such a key differentiator.
And also of course, the skillsetthat they have, right?
Are they really kind ofcontributing to, to this role or
like, you know, think about it.
It's like a say, it's like a 12weeks internship program.
you spend the first six weekseducating them, then your ROI is
(28:59):
probably very, very low.
So.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (29:01):
Mm.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_10372 (29:02):
hire someone who can get up to speed
like relatively quickly probablyin the, in the first week or so
week or like first, maybe twoweeks or so, and then for the
rest of the time they can kindof really contribute to the
team.
I think
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (29:15):
Yeah.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728 (29:16):
of my take on it.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_0 (29:17):
And in this particular case, they're
like your target audience insome respects too.
So it's like if they're inmarketing, like what, what would
make you wanna try a Zen blendsmoothie.
Um, very, very cool.
Um, okay, as we wrap up here,any kind of future thoughts for,
for Zen Blend, for Booth, forjust yourself and your
trajectory?
Anything else you would wantpeople to, to be aware of?
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (29:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the chief of staff roleis such an incredible platform
to learn and grow if you reallywant to get into management in
the future, you know, a lot ofmy, uh, MBA peers, they're
either looking at investmentroles or, or like consulting.
Roles or like higher levelstrategic roles?
Um, you know, I feel like, um,probably less people are
(30:01):
interested in operator roles,but like, it's such fun, you
know, if you see like your hardwork turn into kind of real
impact in the world, I think it,it is great fun.
So I personally think thatoperator is, is a great role if
you are kind of down to like,you know, really get your hands
dirty and, and like boots on theground type of work.
I think, I think, um, it's a.
(30:21):
I think the chief of staff roleis such a good kind of platform
for you to get up to speed and,and learn how to be a good
leader.
Learn how, because you areworking with the management team
all the time and, um, you'reinvolved in the decision kind of
making process all the time andyou really see how your ideas
get translated into action inreal time.
(30:42):
You gotta see it fail.
You gotta see it.
Seat and, and you get thatfeedback in real time.
And that's like really, reallykind of valuable learning
experience for me.
And you know, I apparently Iwant to be a management, sort of
in the management office in thefuture.
I think this is, this has beensuch a kind of incredible
learning experience for me.
So I would, uh, advise, yeah,anybody who wants to do that,
(31:04):
um, to look for a chief of staffrole.
emily-sander_1_03-07-2025 (31:06):
Yeah.
Well thank you for that, forthat words of wisdom.
And it sounds like you've takenthis internship opportunity and
just made the most of it and,you know, it's a win, win win
for all parties involved.
So that's, that's the best, uh,that's the best way to go.
But thank you for sharing that.
Again, this is the first, um,chief of staff intern we have on
the show.
And, uh, I've, I've learned alot in this episode, just me
(31:27):
personally.
So thank you very much again foryour time and for sharing your
story.
conghao_1_03-07-2025_1037 (31:31):
Thank you.
My pleasure.
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