December 24, 2025 • 8 mins
This episode breaks down the "What's your role, what's your goal" framework, with Emily Sander sharing practical examples like a Chief of Staff running a post-mortem, facilitating meetings, or just observing and debriefing with their principal. The approach also applies outside work, like being a supportive parent or a good flight passenger. Emily Sander shows how this simple framework helps people prep for any situation.
Link mentioned:
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Get in touch with Emily:
Want help clarifying your role and goal? Book a clarity call with Emily.
Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:38 Understanding Your Role and Goal
01:40 Facilitating Meetings Effectively
02:20 Observing and Debriefing
04:30 Applying the Framework Beyond Work
05:41 Parenting and Personal Scenarios
07:17 Conclusion and Contact Information
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_2_11-17-2025_ (00:25):
Here is a framework that can be used
as chief of staff as CEO, as anybusiness professional and
outside of work as well.
Here's the framework.
What's your role?
What's your goal?
So I get a lot of people askingme like, Emily, what should I do
in this situation?
Here's this conversation comingup.
Or, oh my gosh, we have ameeting like this and I'm not
quite sure how I'm supposed tointeract or be involved in that
(00:47):
meeting.
And I will often ask, what'syour role and what's your goal?
So what's your role in thatmeeting and what's your goal in
that meeting now?
For chiefs of staff?
It can get real interesting'cause they can play a whole
bunch of different roles in anygiven meeting or any given
scenario.
Other business executives canand well as well.
But chiefs of staff I think havea lot of room for just variety
(01:09):
and breadth for Okay.
In this meeting I am doing aconcrete rollout.
What happened with thiscustomer?
So I led the postmortem efforton how we lost this customer.
We actually had some misses inour team, and here's how we're
going to prevent them.
I'm gonna give a blow by blow towhomever, to our leadership, to
(01:32):
the board on the postmortem.
So that's very specific.
In this other meeting I am.
I am facilitating the meeting.
I'm the organizer of themeeting.
I've called this meeting, but myjob is to actually get some
information from the subjectmatter experts and make sure
that i i I hold the space forthis group of people.
(01:53):
I set the agenda.
I.
I allow people to speak freely.
I make sure everyone has achance to talk.
I make sure we're coming up withthe best ideas and we're moving
this thing forward.
That's my, that's my role andthat's my goal of this meeting.
My role is facilitator, and mygoal is to get as much good
information out from the subjectmatter experts as possible.
(02:13):
All right.
Very different from the firstmeeting.
it could be that you're not evenspeaking in a meeting.
It could be as chief of staff.
I would be in many meetingswhere um, I would be attending
the meeting and I would bethere, but my job was to.
Listen and observe, and thendebrief with my principal
afterward.
(02:34):
So my principal would usually beleading the meeting or having a
key part in the meeting, andthey were up there, front and
center, spotlight, all thatstuff, and they could take in
only so much as they were givingtheir part of the presentation.
But my job was to listen andobserve and hear what people
said.
And hear what people did not sayand observe people's body
(02:56):
language and, oh, like when, youknow, he said that this group
leaned back and when she saidthat people look kind of
confused, I don't think that'svery clear.
Or Hey, okay, these people wereteam so and so and these people
were clearly team not so and sotype of thing.
And just debrief on myobservations and what I picked
up, which would be verydifferent.
Some of them would be the same,but it could be very different
(03:17):
than what my principal picked upon.
And we would compare notes andhave a brainstorm session
afterward.
So that could be the point.
I might not even say anything,or you might not even say
anything in a meeting as chiefof staff sometimes.
And there were times when Iwasn't even at the table, so
when we would have these, youknow, big, big, um, kind of
meetings and big conference roomwith a big conference table, and
(03:37):
we'd have kind of a strategicpartner or maybe a strategic
customer come in, um, orwhatnot.
There would be like a group ofpeople at the table and then
there'd be a group of people.
Sitting against the wall.
So their chairs would be againstthe wall and they would sit back
there.
I would sit back there because Iwanted the wide angle.
I wanted like let me take inthis whole scene and see people
(03:59):
from this side and that side andthe people kind of behind the
scenes.
So, you know, we had peoplevisiting who they weren't at the
table.
Either their principal was ortheir kind of boss was.
I wanted to see like theirreaction as well.
'cause we know how those.
Those debrief conversations goon that end.
So like what were they pickingup on?
What was their vibe?
Were they picking up where wewere laying down, or they're
like, I'm not having this atall.
(04:20):
So I wanted that whole thing,but my job was to observe and
listen and then debrief with myprincipal afterward.
So I.
That's just a few examples forChief of staff.
This can be for any role youhave as COO, as VP of Operations
for chief people Officer forproduct, technology, finance, et
cetera, et cetera.
(04:40):
What's my role in thisparticular meeting, in this
particular interaction, evensometimes.
And what's my goal for thismeeting or for this interaction?
For example.
This one, I've gotta go deepdive, I've gotta get source
data.
I've gotta make sure that peoplehave the timeline.
I gotta go blow by blow almosthour by hour on this postmortem
timeline type of thing.
I gotta collect thatinformation.
Um, okay.
(05:01):
Okay.
For the, I'm just gonna observetype of thing.
All right.
Let me just kind of thinkthrough who's gonna be at that
meeting.
What I know about what they wantand their agendas, and kind of
see how this thing unfolds andjust, maybe make some notes
during the meeting, either on apiece of paper or just mental
notes to debrief with, uh, my,my principal on what, uh,
(05:24):
observations, what questionswould I have that didn't quite
make sense.
Maybe my principal has somefurther information.
anything like that.
So that can kind of help youframe up, okay, here's, here's
how I have to prep for that, orhere's how I wanna show up for
that.
Um.
This can be done for any settinginside and outside of work.
So if you're like, Hey, I amalso a parent, and when I go to
(05:47):
my son's basketball game, myrole is as a, as a respectful
spectator.
And my goal is not to get kickedout of the gym like a parent did
last week, because that was badand that was not a good example.
So that's my goal for this week.
Um, it could be, okay, uh, mygoal right now.
(06:07):
Or like my kid is like cra likesomething has upset them and oh
my gosh, they're going crazy andlike they're off their mind,
like they're not even thinkingstraight.
Okay.
My role here is to like holdthis space and hold this
situation and just let themvent.
And the goal is to like, letthem vent here so they don't
blow themselves up other places.
All right.
That's my goal.
That's my role.
That's my role.
That's my role.
(06:28):
That's my goal.
Maybe later that day or perhapsthe next day, we revisit that
conversation and my role andgoal has changed slightly.
So it's to provide a framework.
For how to think about thingslike that that come up in life.
Hey, you ran into that scenarioand the reason you didn't get
the outcome you wanted, and thereason this stuff blew up on you
(06:51):
is'cause you went about it thisway.
Here's a framework that wouldlead you to a different set of
actions and outcomes.
My rule right now is to.
Be the one who shares thatframework with you and walks you
through like, Hey, here's whythis felt so bad.
And my goal is for you to knowthat that's a possibility and a
perspective to have goingforward in your life that you
(07:13):
didn't have before.
So there's different roles andgoals that we have all the time.
Um, and this would go on and onand on, right?
So, um, I'm jumping on a flighttomorrow, so like.
The flight attendants have arole and have a goal, which is
to keep us safe.
A passenger in that relationshiphas a role and goal, which is to
listen to the flight attendantsto make sure everyone is safe on
the plane.
Um, so you can think about thesein a whole bunch of different
(07:35):
facets, there's, there's somany.
Permutations and combinations ofEmily, what should I do in this
scenario?
I'm happy to speak with youabout a specific situation that
you have coming up more thanhappy to, but I can't do it
infinitely.
Right?
So I think frameworks like this,which is what's your role,
what's your goal, can help leadyou in the right direction in
the vast majority of cases.
(07:57):
So hopefully that gets you alittle closer.
Of course, if you have aspecific scenario or like Emily.
Yeah, but there's.
This, this and this dynamic.
It's kind of like hard toexplain unless I talk to you or
talk it out loud, that I'm happyto go through any of those that
you would like.
Feel free to find me on LinkedIndm, drop a comment in, the
comment box or email me directlyat emily@nextlevel.coach.
(08:18):
But otherwise, I really do thinkthat what's my role, what's my
goal?
We'll get you a long way.
So hopefully that's helpful andI will catch you next week on
leveraging leadership.
Here is a framework that can be used
as chief of staff as CEO, as anybusiness professional and
outside of work as well.
Here's the framework.
What's your role?
What's your goal?
So I get a lot of people askingme like, Emily, what should I do
in this situation?
Here's this conversation comingup.
Or, oh my gosh, we have ameeting like this and I'm not
quite sure how I'm supposed tointeract or be involved in that
(00:47):
meeting.
And I will often ask, what'syour role and what's your goal?
So what's your role in thatmeeting and what's your goal in
that meeting now?
For chiefs of staff?
It can get real interesting'cause they can play a whole
bunch of different roles in anygiven meeting or any given
scenario.
Other business executives canand well as well.
But chiefs of staff I think havea lot of room for just variety
(01:09):
and breadth for Okay.
In this meeting I am doing aconcrete rollout.
What happened with thiscustomer?
So I led the postmortem efforton how we lost this customer.
We actually had some misses inour team, and here's how we're
going to prevent them.
I'm gonna give a blow by blow towhomever, to our leadership, to
(01:32):
the board on the postmortem.
So that's very specific.
In this other meeting I am.
I am facilitating the meeting.
I'm the organizer of themeeting.
I've called this meeting, but myjob is to actually get some
information from the subjectmatter experts and make sure
that i i I hold the space forthis group of people.
(01:53):
I set the agenda.
I.
I allow people to speak freely.
I make sure everyone has achance to talk.
I make sure we're coming up withthe best ideas and we're moving
this thing forward.
That's my, that's my role andthat's my goal of this meeting.
My role is facilitator, and mygoal is to get as much good
information out from the subjectmatter experts as possible.
(02:13):
All right.
Very different from the firstmeeting.
it could be that you're not evenspeaking in a meeting.
It could be as chief of staff.
I would be in many meetingswhere um, I would be attending
the meeting and I would bethere, but my job was to.
Listen and observe, and thendebrief with my principal
afterward.
(02:34):
So my principal would usually beleading the meeting or having a
key part in the meeting, andthey were up there, front and
center, spotlight, all thatstuff, and they could take in
only so much as they were givingtheir part of the presentation.
But my job was to listen andobserve and hear what people
said.
And hear what people did not sayand observe people's body
(02:56):
language and, oh, like when, youknow, he said that this group
leaned back and when she saidthat people look kind of
confused, I don't think that'svery clear.
Or Hey, okay, these people wereteam so and so and these people
were clearly team not so and sotype of thing.
And just debrief on myobservations and what I picked
up, which would be verydifferent.
Some of them would be the same,but it could be very different
(03:17):
than what my principal picked upon.
And we would compare notes andhave a brainstorm session
afterward.
So that could be the point.
I might not even say anything,or you might not even say
anything in a meeting as chiefof staff sometimes.
And there were times when Iwasn't even at the table, so
when we would have these, youknow, big, big, um, kind of
meetings and big conference roomwith a big conference table, and
(03:37):
we'd have kind of a strategicpartner or maybe a strategic
customer come in, um, orwhatnot.
There would be like a group ofpeople at the table and then
there'd be a group of people.
Sitting against the wall.
So their chairs would be againstthe wall and they would sit back
there.
I would sit back there because Iwanted the wide angle.
I wanted like let me take inthis whole scene and see people
(03:59):
from this side and that side andthe people kind of behind the
scenes.
So, you know, we had peoplevisiting who they weren't at the
table.
Either their principal was ortheir kind of boss was.
I wanted to see like theirreaction as well.
'cause we know how those.
Those debrief conversations goon that end.
So like what were they pickingup on?
What was their vibe?
Were they picking up where wewere laying down, or they're
like, I'm not having this atall.
(04:20):
So I wanted that whole thing,but my job was to observe and
listen and then debrief with myprincipal afterward.
So I.
That's just a few examples forChief of staff.
This can be for any role youhave as COO, as VP of Operations
for chief people Officer forproduct, technology, finance, et
cetera, et cetera.
(04:40):
What's my role in thisparticular meeting, in this
particular interaction, evensometimes.
And what's my goal for thismeeting or for this interaction?
For example.
This one, I've gotta go deepdive, I've gotta get source
data.
I've gotta make sure that peoplehave the timeline.
I gotta go blow by blow almosthour by hour on this postmortem
timeline type of thing.
I gotta collect thatinformation.
Um, okay.
(05:01):
Okay.
For the, I'm just gonna observetype of thing.
All right.
Let me just kind of thinkthrough who's gonna be at that
meeting.
What I know about what they wantand their agendas, and kind of
see how this thing unfolds andjust, maybe make some notes
during the meeting, either on apiece of paper or just mental
notes to debrief with, uh, my,my principal on what, uh,
(05:24):
observations, what questionswould I have that didn't quite
make sense.
Maybe my principal has somefurther information.
anything like that.
So that can kind of help youframe up, okay, here's, here's
how I have to prep for that, orhere's how I wanna show up for
that.
Um.
This can be done for any settinginside and outside of work.
So if you're like, Hey, I amalso a parent, and when I go to
(05:47):
my son's basketball game, myrole is as a, as a respectful
spectator.
And my goal is not to get kickedout of the gym like a parent did
last week, because that was badand that was not a good example.
So that's my goal for this week.
Um, it could be, okay, uh, mygoal right now.
(06:07):
Or like my kid is like cra likesomething has upset them and oh
my gosh, they're going crazy andlike they're off their mind,
like they're not even thinkingstraight.
Okay.
My role here is to like holdthis space and hold this
situation and just let themvent.
And the goal is to like, letthem vent here so they don't
blow themselves up other places.
All right.
That's my goal.
That's my role.
That's my role.
That's my role.
(06:28):
That's my goal.
Maybe later that day or perhapsthe next day, we revisit that
conversation and my role andgoal has changed slightly.
So it's to provide a framework.
For how to think about thingslike that that come up in life.
Hey, you ran into that scenarioand the reason you didn't get
the outcome you wanted, and thereason this stuff blew up on you
(06:51):
is'cause you went about it thisway.
Here's a framework that wouldlead you to a different set of
actions and outcomes.
My rule right now is to.
Be the one who shares thatframework with you and walks you
through like, Hey, here's whythis felt so bad.
And my goal is for you to knowthat that's a possibility and a
perspective to have goingforward in your life that you
(07:13):
didn't have before.
So there's different roles andgoals that we have all the time.
Um, and this would go on and onand on, right?
So, um, I'm jumping on a flighttomorrow, so like.
The flight attendants have arole and have a goal, which is
to keep us safe.
A passenger in that relationshiphas a role and goal, which is to
listen to the flight attendantsto make sure everyone is safe on
the plane.
Um, so you can think about thesein a whole bunch of different
(07:35):
facets, there's, there's somany.
Permutations and combinations ofEmily, what should I do in this
scenario?
I'm happy to speak with youabout a specific situation that
you have coming up more thanhappy to, but I can't do it
infinitely.
Right?
So I think frameworks like this,which is what's your role,
what's your goal, can help leadyou in the right direction in
the vast majority of cases.
(07:57):
So hopefully that gets you alittle closer.
Of course, if you have aspecific scenario or like Emily.
Yeah, but there's.
This, this and this dynamic.
It's kind of like hard toexplain unless I talk to you or
talk it out loud, that I'm happyto go through any of those that
you would like.
Feel free to find me on LinkedIndm, drop a comment in, the
comment box or email me directlyat emily@nextlevel.coach.
(08:18):
But otherwise, I really do thinkthat what's my role, what's my
goal?
We'll get you a long way.
So hopefully that's helpful andI will catch you next week on
leveraging leadership.
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