December 17, 2025 • 13 mins
This episode talks about moving teams from feeling stuck to making progress by first getting accurate data. Emily Sander shares an example of advising a Chief of Staff to use surveys to clarify vague complaints about “culture problems” and explains how gathering real feedback, instead of just venting, can lead to informed action on issues like PTO policies. The message is to focus on what you can control and collect solid info before trying to fix anything.
Want help getting data points? Book a clarity call w/ Emily here.
Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:47 Shifting Mindsets: From Fix It to Progress
01:11 Case Study: Addressing Culture Problems
02:58 Mindset Matters: Accurate Data in Thoughts
04:19 Taking Ownership and Making Progress
07:17 Empowering Teams: Changing the Narrative
12:13 Concluding Thoughts: Empowerment Through Data
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_11-17-2025_ (00:25):
Have you ever led a team that is so
overwhelmed they just stoptaking action altogether?
When a team thinks that the fixto their problem or the fix to
their situation is impossible orout of their control, it feels
pointless.
So let's talk about shiftingthem from helpless to hopeful
(00:45):
and getting them moving again.
so the main shift I wanna talkabout here is going from a fix
it mindset to a progressmindset.
And more specifically to startwith an accurate data mindset.
So we're going from fix it.
Fix the problem.
Let's make some progress here.
And first of all, let's start bygetting some accurate data.
(01:07):
Going.
Okay.
Accurate data.
This can mean like actual data.
So let's say, uh, I was justtalking with the chief of staff
the other day who was like, wehave a culture problem and
people feel like the solution tothe culture problem everyone's,
bitching and moaning about isout of our control.
And it's being derived bydecisions made at a more senior
(01:27):
level and then we're just likereaping the negative downstream
impacts of that.
So.
I said, why don't you take asurvey?
Why don't you actually take asurvey to your managers rank and
file folks to as many peopleacross the company as you can,
and collect some data, likeactually get some data on is
this, is the culture bad?
Is it bad in some pockets?
(01:49):
Is it bad this way?
Is it bad that way?
Like what are we talking abouthere?
There's this blanket kind ofcomment or story arc or
narrative around like, theculture is horrible and it's
terrible.
Like fix it.
And it's like, okay, well.
Like, what exactly are we quoteunquote fixing?
Um, if we can't quote unquotefix it all in one fail swoop,
can we make progress on it incertain areas or certain pockets
(02:11):
of our influence if it's not allwithin our influence?
And to start with like, what arewe actually talking about?
What are, what are we actuallytalking culture like, cultural
problem.
Uh, great.
That can mean one of like athousand different things.
So the tactical piece in thisconversation was like, let's
start with a survey and we kindof crafted some, some different
ways to do a survey, differentways to roll it out.
(02:32):
What types of questions would weask?
How would we front run that withthe team and kind of get their
buy and get their input, andthen have them be able to tee up
that talk track to their teammembers, all these things, et
cetera, et cetera.
But it went from.
Hey team, fix the cultureproblem.
Jeez, oed O'Malley, like, fixthe fricking culture problem to
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
let's get some data so we knowwhat actual starting points make
(02:56):
sense?
Okay.
Accurate data can also bemindset.
So what's happening in betweenyour ears, right?
So, okay.
If you have a story and anarrative that you've been
telling yourself over and overand over again, like God, like
those people up there, likethose so and sos, if they just
did this, then it would fixeverything.
I'm, I can't do anything.
(03:17):
I'm stuck here.
Literally I have my hands tiedbehind my back.
Um.
By the way, pet peeve of mine,people misuse the word literally
a whole bunch in our languagetoday.
If you literally had your handstied behind your back, you would
have like rope or some type ofzip tie or a handcuff or
whatever other method you woulduse to get your hands tied
behind your back.
Most people aren't literallyhaving their hands tied behind
(03:39):
their back, um, but they say itlike that.
Anyway, sidebar rant over.
Um.
You might very well be workingwithin a certain environment or,
Hey, look, if our PTO policy orwhatever is mandated at a
company level in this way, maybethat's what you're working
within.
(03:59):
Okay?
Within that, there's probablyflexibility and room to move.
But if you're saying like, Nope,nope, not on me, not on me, not
up to me.
I don't wanna take any controlof that.
I don't wanna take any ownershipof that.
They just need to fix it.
And I'll just bitch with peopleand we'll, that's like, mm, what
whatcha are you doing?
Like, whatcha doing?
Really?
(04:19):
Can you make some progress?
Within the environment you'reworking under most of the time.
You can, most of the time peoplecan, not always, but most of the
time people can.
Um, now there is a, to me,there's a stronger argument of
is the progress I'm able tomake.
Within these constraintsworthwhile?
I mean, like, technically in anabsolute value way, I could make
(04:40):
some technical progress, but isthat actually gonna be
meaningful to people?
Is that actually gonna be, um, apositive impact or is it almost
gonna be insulting in the senseof I can do so little?
There's conversations aroundthat, but for people just to
like throw their hands atpeople, like, Nope, I can't do
nothing.
It's not my fault.
I, like, I have little patiencefor, um, that's just my personal
(05:02):
opinion.
So get some accurate data.
Okay.
We do have this PTO policy.
Alright.
If I stand back and think aboutit, what is under my control?
I don't agree with this.
The team is very upset withthis.
Hmm.
Alright.
Does my boss know about this ordo I just complain about it with
(05:25):
my team?
Does my boss know the impactit's having on our team members
and the workflows and theproductivity and the impact or
response time to customers orthe, I don't know, downtime of
certain systems or whatever?
Do they know the impact?
Are you telling that to them?
(05:47):
In a way that they canunderstand and possibly pass up
the chain, so to speak, to theirbosses who might be able to
actually change this policy.
Are you giving them thequantifiable?
Here's the stats, here's thestatistics.
Here is the email from theclient.
Here is like the map of theworkflow and an easy to
understand visual.
And here's my anecdotal reportout of how this is going for the
(06:09):
team.
Are you conveying thatinformation in a professional,
helpful way?
Instead of just complainingabout it.
So, uh, if you haven't, by theway, in this scenario collected
that actual data, you're justgoing off, what two of the
noisiest team members you haveon your team are saying like,
bababababa, PTO, fix it, fix it,fix it.
(06:30):
If you're just going off thatand you haven't actually
collected the accurate data fromyour team, then that's on you.
That's on you.
So I would go and collect theaccurate data.
And you might go, oh, hold on,wait a minute.
I don't even have to go to myboss.
Within the dialogue andconversations of my team, I have
lots of room for progress.
Let, let me, let me help themunderstand.
(06:50):
The PTO policy isn't saying thatit's not constraining you in
that way.
It's saying this, you actuallycan do what you're asking to do.
Maybe you can do it three days aweek, not five days a week, but
hold on.
Like, you're, you're not, letme, let me help you.
Uh.
Clarify this for you, that mightbe something you can do within
the sphere of your influence.
Right.
Okay.
So accurate data, what progresscan be made?
(07:12):
So we're moving from like fixthe problem to progress, to
collecting accurate data.
Um, many times I will coachchiefs of staff on changing the
narrative.
With their team.
'cause the team will be like soburnt out and maybe for good
reason where it's like we justget, we, we, we've collected the
data, we've shown this stuff inan easy underweight to
(07:35):
understand.
We've told them anecdotalfeedback over and over and over
again.
It falls on deaf ears.
We get slapped on the wrists foreven bringing it up type of
thing.
So they might be in thatposition.
So, in these types ofconversations, I coach so many
chiefs of staff who are tryingto, trying to infuse their team
with like, Hey, like don't justbe hopeless.
Don't just sit there like a bumpon a log.
(07:55):
I know that stuff is rough incertain areas, but changing that
narrative to a, let's make someprogress.
What is under our control?
That's a more empoweringposition to be in, right?
Than this stuff is happening tome.
It's just closing in all aroundme to, wait a minute, this is
under my control.
It might be a little bit, itmight be not as broad in scope
(08:18):
as I want, but this is under mycontrol.
This is always under my control.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
So I do have influence here.
Okay.
And you know what?
It takes some work to collectand pass this feedback through.
Um.
But that does seem to be gettingthrough to people after the
first, second, third time we'vedelivered information like this.
(08:39):
It's actionable information.
It's real intel versus just kindof saying it in a, in.
You know, and a, I'm gonna sighand say as an aside, like as an
aside, like, I mean the PTOpolicy like sucks, but whatever.
Like Yeah, yeah.
We can do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This, this, and this.
If you actually like, Hey, likePTO policy, not going down,
well, here's the information.
Here's what I would love to bepassed on and just known by the
(09:02):
leadership team or the upperleadership team or whatever.
You do that a couple times andthen you hear back, okay,
they're actually consideringthis, they're actually putting
this on the docket for theirnext onsite.
Um, or they're actually takingit to HR and saying, Hey, what
are our options here?
If we made this change inpolicy, how would that affect
different groups?
That's progress.
That's progress.
That's also something you canpass back to your team, right?
(09:23):
So progress on both ends.
Um, so I think just changing thesentiment and the conversation
around.
Let's just dig our heels in andbe unhappy about this too.
Like what?
What can we do here?
It's kind of like, what do youown, like owning the influence
you do have, like own theinfluence you do have.
'cause you probably have morethan you think.
and you also can, if you takethe blinders off, most people
(09:47):
unnecessarily constrainthemselves.
They make themselves smallerthan they actual are or make
their sphere of influencesmaller than they, than it
actually is.
So let's name what's actually inour control and let's have our
team name what's actually intheir control.
That can be at an individuallevel or a collective level,
right?
So within your control, like youcan get some accurate feedback
from your team.
You can bring that to our littlegroup here, and then we can
(10:09):
collectively figure out the bestway to deliver that up to the
powers that be.
Um, ooh.
And I like a meta thing aboutthis is.
If you deliver that feedbackabout the PTO policy and they're
like, no, no, we're gonna keep,no, no, we're gonna keep it the
same way.
That is also collectingimportant data points.
(10:30):
Alright?
We've set our piece, we've shownthem data.
It's clear from our perspective,this is a detriment for our team
members, for the customers, etcetera.
And they continue to say no.
The nos are data points inthemselves.
The No are data points inthemselves, and it helps you as
a leadership team and your teammembers and the managers rank
(10:53):
and file folks, it helps themmake informed decisions, right?
Because at the end of the day,if you're really, really
constrained, and it is likeEmily, it's not just me, it's
not whatever.
We have these conversations andyou're in a situation where you
are immovable, you're like abounded pigeon and you can't do
anything.
Then you need to know thatthat's your environment and then
(11:13):
make the appropriate or relevantdecisions from there.
It might be, crap, I have tostay here because for two more
years I gotta pay off, you know,college tuition or whatever.
Um, but it could be like, youknow what?
I don't need this.
Um, it's too much trouble thanit's worth.
It's familiar, but at thispoint, I'm willing to take the
jump or whatever you need tomake that decision in an
informed way.
(11:34):
I wouldn't just make a knee jerkdecision and be like, oh crap,
grass isn't greener.
And actually, like, I had moreleeway over here than I thought.
I just never tried.
But if you have, and you've goneto the extent you can and you
get these data points back,that's good for you.
Just in a pure like.
Collect data points, collectinformation level, any more
information you can get ispositive.
(11:55):
Okay?
They said, no, let's do it onemore time.
Let's do it this way.
They said, no, all right.
We have this, uh, team meetingwith, you know, my boss's boss.
Let's throw it out there.
Let's be professional.
Let's throw the data, but let'smake our case.
Wait.
Be patient.
And they said no.
Okay.
Important data points tocollect.
So So I think sometimes the fixit, fix it.
(12:15):
Now this big, amorphous,nebulous problem can be super
overwhelming and people have somany other things they're doing
at the same time and it just,people can like just get so
overwhelmed and numbed out.
They just stop and you're like,I don't, I don't even care.
I don't even care.
This is pointless.
Sure.
Whatever.
I don't care.
Just do it.
I don't care.
And if you can flip that to,okay, here's what we can
(12:38):
control.
Uh, let's just go collect someinformation.
We're not making any decisionsyet.
Our job is just to collect somedata points and then we're gonna
look at them.
And that's it.
That can be like, oh, okay.
I mean, it doesn't solveanything per se, but I can do
that.
I, I can collect data points.
Yeah, no problem.
(12:58):
I can do that.
Let's do that.
Let's do that and take a lookand see what we have.
I think that's a much, that canbe a much more empowering and
also specific thing to go anddo.
Okay.
So hopefully that has beenhelpful and I will catch you
next week on leveragingleadership.
Have you ever led a team that is so
overwhelmed they just stoptaking action altogether?
When a team thinks that the fixto their problem or the fix to
their situation is impossible orout of their control, it feels
pointless.
So let's talk about shiftingthem from helpless to hopeful
(00:45):
and getting them moving again.
so the main shift I wanna talkabout here is going from a fix
it mindset to a progressmindset.
And more specifically to startwith an accurate data mindset.
So we're going from fix it.
Fix the problem.
Let's make some progress here.
And first of all, let's start bygetting some accurate data.
(01:07):
Going.
Okay.
Accurate data.
This can mean like actual data.
So let's say, uh, I was justtalking with the chief of staff
the other day who was like, wehave a culture problem and
people feel like the solution tothe culture problem everyone's,
bitching and moaning about isout of our control.
And it's being derived bydecisions made at a more senior
(01:27):
level and then we're just likereaping the negative downstream
impacts of that.
So.
I said, why don't you take asurvey?
Why don't you actually take asurvey to your managers rank and
file folks to as many peopleacross the company as you can,
and collect some data, likeactually get some data on is
this, is the culture bad?
Is it bad in some pockets?
(01:49):
Is it bad this way?
Is it bad that way?
Like what are we talking abouthere?
There's this blanket kind ofcomment or story arc or
narrative around like, theculture is horrible and it's
terrible.
Like fix it.
And it's like, okay, well.
Like, what exactly are we quoteunquote fixing?
Um, if we can't quote unquotefix it all in one fail swoop,
can we make progress on it incertain areas or certain pockets
(02:11):
of our influence if it's not allwithin our influence?
And to start with like, what arewe actually talking about?
What are, what are we actuallytalking culture like, cultural
problem.
Uh, great.
That can mean one of like athousand different things.
So the tactical piece in thisconversation was like, let's
start with a survey and we kindof crafted some, some different
ways to do a survey, differentways to roll it out.
(02:32):
What types of questions would weask?
How would we front run that withthe team and kind of get their
buy and get their input, andthen have them be able to tee up
that talk track to their teammembers, all these things, et
cetera, et cetera.
But it went from.
Hey team, fix the cultureproblem.
Jeez, oed O'Malley, like, fixthe fricking culture problem to
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
let's get some data so we knowwhat actual starting points make
(02:56):
sense?
Okay.
Accurate data can also bemindset.
So what's happening in betweenyour ears, right?
So, okay.
If you have a story and anarrative that you've been
telling yourself over and overand over again, like God, like
those people up there, likethose so and sos, if they just
did this, then it would fixeverything.
I'm, I can't do anything.
(03:17):
I'm stuck here.
Literally I have my hands tiedbehind my back.
Um.
By the way, pet peeve of mine,people misuse the word literally
a whole bunch in our languagetoday.
If you literally had your handstied behind your back, you would
have like rope or some type ofzip tie or a handcuff or
whatever other method you woulduse to get your hands tied
behind your back.
Most people aren't literallyhaving their hands tied behind
(03:39):
their back, um, but they say itlike that.
Anyway, sidebar rant over.
Um.
You might very well be workingwithin a certain environment or,
Hey, look, if our PTO policy orwhatever is mandated at a
company level in this way, maybethat's what you're working
within.
(03:59):
Okay?
Within that, there's probablyflexibility and room to move.
But if you're saying like, Nope,nope, not on me, not on me, not
up to me.
I don't wanna take any controlof that.
I don't wanna take any ownershipof that.
They just need to fix it.
And I'll just bitch with peopleand we'll, that's like, mm, what
whatcha are you doing?
Like, whatcha doing?
Really?
(04:19):
Can you make some progress?
Within the environment you'reworking under most of the time.
You can, most of the time peoplecan, not always, but most of the
time people can.
Um, now there is a, to me,there's a stronger argument of
is the progress I'm able tomake.
Within these constraintsworthwhile?
I mean, like, technically in anabsolute value way, I could make
(04:40):
some technical progress, but isthat actually gonna be
meaningful to people?
Is that actually gonna be, um, apositive impact or is it almost
gonna be insulting in the senseof I can do so little?
There's conversations aroundthat, but for people just to
like throw their hands atpeople, like, Nope, I can't do
nothing.
It's not my fault.
I, like, I have little patiencefor, um, that's just my personal
(05:02):
opinion.
So get some accurate data.
Okay.
We do have this PTO policy.
Alright.
If I stand back and think aboutit, what is under my control?
I don't agree with this.
The team is very upset withthis.
Hmm.
Alright.
Does my boss know about this ordo I just complain about it with
(05:25):
my team?
Does my boss know the impactit's having on our team members
and the workflows and theproductivity and the impact or
response time to customers orthe, I don't know, downtime of
certain systems or whatever?
Do they know the impact?
Are you telling that to them?
(05:47):
In a way that they canunderstand and possibly pass up
the chain, so to speak, to theirbosses who might be able to
actually change this policy.
Are you giving them thequantifiable?
Here's the stats, here's thestatistics.
Here is the email from theclient.
Here is like the map of theworkflow and an easy to
understand visual.
And here's my anecdotal reportout of how this is going for the
(06:09):
team.
Are you conveying thatinformation in a professional,
helpful way?
Instead of just complainingabout it.
So, uh, if you haven't, by theway, in this scenario collected
that actual data, you're justgoing off, what two of the
noisiest team members you haveon your team are saying like,
bababababa, PTO, fix it, fix it,fix it.
(06:30):
If you're just going off thatand you haven't actually
collected the accurate data fromyour team, then that's on you.
That's on you.
So I would go and collect theaccurate data.
And you might go, oh, hold on,wait a minute.
I don't even have to go to myboss.
Within the dialogue andconversations of my team, I have
lots of room for progress.
Let, let me, let me help themunderstand.
(06:50):
The PTO policy isn't saying thatit's not constraining you in
that way.
It's saying this, you actuallycan do what you're asking to do.
Maybe you can do it three days aweek, not five days a week, but
hold on.
Like, you're, you're not, letme, let me help you.
Uh.
Clarify this for you, that mightbe something you can do within
the sphere of your influence.
Right.
Okay.
So accurate data, what progresscan be made?
(07:12):
So we're moving from like fixthe problem to progress, to
collecting accurate data.
Um, many times I will coachchiefs of staff on changing the
narrative.
With their team.
'cause the team will be like soburnt out and maybe for good
reason where it's like we justget, we, we, we've collected the
data, we've shown this stuff inan easy underweight to
(07:35):
understand.
We've told them anecdotalfeedback over and over and over
again.
It falls on deaf ears.
We get slapped on the wrists foreven bringing it up type of
thing.
So they might be in thatposition.
So, in these types ofconversations, I coach so many
chiefs of staff who are tryingto, trying to infuse their team
with like, Hey, like don't justbe hopeless.
Don't just sit there like a bumpon a log.
(07:55):
I know that stuff is rough incertain areas, but changing that
narrative to a, let's make someprogress.
What is under our control?
That's a more empoweringposition to be in, right?
Than this stuff is happening tome.
It's just closing in all aroundme to, wait a minute, this is
under my control.
It might be a little bit, itmight be not as broad in scope
(08:18):
as I want, but this is under mycontrol.
This is always under my control.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
So I do have influence here.
Okay.
And you know what?
It takes some work to collectand pass this feedback through.
Um.
But that does seem to be gettingthrough to people after the
first, second, third time we'vedelivered information like this.
(08:39):
It's actionable information.
It's real intel versus just kindof saying it in a, in.
You know, and a, I'm gonna sighand say as an aside, like as an
aside, like, I mean the PTOpolicy like sucks, but whatever.
Like Yeah, yeah.
We can do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This, this, and this.
If you actually like, Hey, likePTO policy, not going down,
well, here's the information.
Here's what I would love to bepassed on and just known by the
(09:02):
leadership team or the upperleadership team or whatever.
You do that a couple times andthen you hear back, okay,
they're actually consideringthis, they're actually putting
this on the docket for theirnext onsite.
Um, or they're actually takingit to HR and saying, Hey, what
are our options here?
If we made this change inpolicy, how would that affect
different groups?
That's progress.
That's progress.
That's also something you canpass back to your team, right?
(09:23):
So progress on both ends.
Um, so I think just changing thesentiment and the conversation
around.
Let's just dig our heels in andbe unhappy about this too.
Like what?
What can we do here?
It's kind of like, what do youown, like owning the influence
you do have, like own theinfluence you do have.
'cause you probably have morethan you think.
and you also can, if you takethe blinders off, most people
(09:47):
unnecessarily constrainthemselves.
They make themselves smallerthan they actual are or make
their sphere of influencesmaller than they, than it
actually is.
So let's name what's actually inour control and let's have our
team name what's actually intheir control.
That can be at an individuallevel or a collective level,
right?
So within your control, like youcan get some accurate feedback
from your team.
You can bring that to our littlegroup here, and then we can
(10:09):
collectively figure out the bestway to deliver that up to the
powers that be.
Um, ooh.
And I like a meta thing aboutthis is.
If you deliver that feedbackabout the PTO policy and they're
like, no, no, we're gonna keep,no, no, we're gonna keep it the
same way.
That is also collectingimportant data points.
(10:30):
Alright?
We've set our piece, we've shownthem data.
It's clear from our perspective,this is a detriment for our team
members, for the customers, etcetera.
And they continue to say no.
The nos are data points inthemselves.
The No are data points inthemselves, and it helps you as
a leadership team and your teammembers and the managers rank
(10:53):
and file folks, it helps themmake informed decisions, right?
Because at the end of the day,if you're really, really
constrained, and it is likeEmily, it's not just me, it's
not whatever.
We have these conversations andyou're in a situation where you
are immovable, you're like abounded pigeon and you can't do
anything.
Then you need to know thatthat's your environment and then
(11:13):
make the appropriate or relevantdecisions from there.
It might be, crap, I have tostay here because for two more
years I gotta pay off, you know,college tuition or whatever.
Um, but it could be like, youknow what?
I don't need this.
Um, it's too much trouble thanit's worth.
It's familiar, but at thispoint, I'm willing to take the
jump or whatever you need tomake that decision in an
informed way.
(11:34):
I wouldn't just make a knee jerkdecision and be like, oh crap,
grass isn't greener.
And actually, like, I had moreleeway over here than I thought.
I just never tried.
But if you have, and you've goneto the extent you can and you
get these data points back,that's good for you.
Just in a pure like.
Collect data points, collectinformation level, any more
information you can get ispositive.
(11:55):
Okay?
They said, no, let's do it onemore time.
Let's do it this way.
They said, no, all right.
We have this, uh, team meetingwith, you know, my boss's boss.
Let's throw it out there.
Let's be professional.
Let's throw the data, but let'smake our case.
Wait.
Be patient.
And they said no.
Okay.
Important data points tocollect.
So So I think sometimes the fixit, fix it.
(12:15):
Now this big, amorphous,nebulous problem can be super
overwhelming and people have somany other things they're doing
at the same time and it just,people can like just get so
overwhelmed and numbed out.
They just stop and you're like,I don't, I don't even care.
I don't even care.
This is pointless.
Sure.
Whatever.
I don't care.
Just do it.
I don't care.
And if you can flip that to,okay, here's what we can
(12:38):
control.
Uh, let's just go collect someinformation.
We're not making any decisionsyet.
Our job is just to collect somedata points and then we're gonna
look at them.
And that's it.
That can be like, oh, okay.
I mean, it doesn't solveanything per se, but I can do
that.
I, I can collect data points.
Yeah, no problem.
(12:58):
I can do that.
Let's do that.
Let's do that and take a lookand see what we have.
I think that's a much, that canbe a much more empowering and
also specific thing to go anddo.
Okay.
So hopefully that has beenhelpful and I will catch you
next week on leveragingleadership.
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