December 8, 2025 • 35 mins
Emily Sander talks with Tinna Jackson about navigating power dynamics as a Chief of Staff in the U.S. Senate, handling office politics, and the importance of emotional intelligence and trust in leadership. Tinna shares tips on building relationships with board members, managing micromanagers, and methods for better communication in remote or hybrid teams. She also discusses her book, The Power Play Journal, and her group coaching program for aspiring leaders.
Links Mentioned:
- Tinna Jackson’s Book: The Power Play Journal: Battle-Tested Strategies & Reflections for Impactful Leadership
- Connect with Tinna Jackson on LinkedIn
Free Resources:
- Strategic Planning Checklist
- Chief of Staff Skills Assessment Checklist
- A Day in the Life of a Chief of Staff
- Chief of Staff Toolkit
Get in Touch With Emily:
- Connect on LinkedIn
- Follow on YouTube
- Learn more about coaching
- Sign up for the newsletter
- Clarity Call with Emily
Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:48 Tinna's Background in Politics
05:09 Public vs. Private Sector Dynamics
06:18 Leadership and Emotional Intelligence
08:34 Communication in Remote Work
11:05 Building Team Relationships
14:59 Effective Leadership Strategies
16:54 Navigating Power Dynamics
18:46 Finding Influential Allies
20:04 Nonprofit vs. For-Profit Dynamics
22:49 Building Strong Board Relationships
26:40 The Power Play Journal
30:56 Group Coaching and Mentorship
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_11-12-20 (00:25):
Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership.
Tina Jackson joins me today.
She is the author of the PowerPlay Journal and founder of
Jackson Consulting Group.
And after years of workingacross government, business and
nonprofits, she helps leadersnavigate power and politics with
clarity and confidence.
Tina, welcome to the show.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (00:45):
Yes.
Yes, Emily.
Thank you for having me.
emily-sander_1_11-12 (00:47):
Beautiful.
So can you just give us a briefbackground of, of who you are
and, and how you got to whatyou're doing now?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (00:54):
Yes, absolutely.
So I'm born and raised inWashington, DC it's the like,
powerhouse of power, right?
Um, and so I spent the majorityof my career in national
politics 10 years.
10 and a half years of that timewas.
Spent in the US Senate and halfof that time was, uh, as deputy
chief of staff.
emily-sander_1_11-12 (01:11):
Beautiful.
Well, let's start there'cause Iknow we have chiefs of staff
listening who ears just perkedup.
So tell us about your time asDeputy Chief of Staff for, for a
member of the Senate.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (01:21):
Yeah, it was not without difficulty.
Right.
Um, you know, when you'reworking for someone high
profile, um, you know, any CEOwould be high profile, right?
Um, it, um, not withoutdifficulty, it was a lot of
losing sleep.
I can tell you that.
It was definitely a toughbalance between, you know,
(01:42):
helping someone with theirmission, organizing their
priorities, and helping themdetermine what their priorities
should be based on the landscapeyou are seeing, um, and
reconciling that.
The landscape that they see.
So, um, you know, on top of thatwas also managing the day-to-day
popups of staff drama, right?
I mean, any chief of staff,chief of staff, chief of stuff,
(02:06):
whatever.
just, you know, dealing withpersonnel was a big chunk of
that because we're all workingtogether to, to move the work.
and.
You know, someone has a bad day,they wanna talk to you about it,
which is interesting becauseclearly you've gotten to a point
where staff trusts
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (02:26):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (02:26):
that's very important.
But with that comes, uh, lesstime for you to download and
take a breather and, um, youknow, reconcile your own
thoughts.
It was just a constant.
Go, go, go.
but a tough balance between therest that you need to recharge
and do it all over again thenext day.
to, you know, being effective inyour role consistently on a
(02:51):
daily basis, uh, especially whenthe boss has a question or has a
bright idea that they've gottenin the middle of the night.
And who do they call?
The, the chief of staff, deputychiefs or the, you know, the
person that they trust the most.
So I'm sure everyone, all chiefsof staff, uh, go through
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (03:08):
lots of nodding heads listening.
Yes.
And I'm curious, were youinteracting with what you know,
the chief of staff with thesenator, who was your kind of
primary point of contact?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2 (03:18):
Primary point of contact with the, was
the senator
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (03:21):
Okay.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (03:22):
and the chief of staff equally,
because at some point, you know,when you're working for, uh, for
a, uh, politico, if you will, ofstaff is sort of on this.
Same level as the member in manyways, right?
The member is the talking head,the mouthpiece, the person that
is out and about kissing babiesand you know, meeting with
(03:42):
constituents.
The chief of staff is on theback end doing kind of the.
Backend work and thestrategizing and the fundraising
to get the, to keep that memberin office.
Right.
And so then there was myposition that was somewhat
supporting both of them indifferent ways.
Right?
I would be the first line ofdefense for the senator.
(04:04):
I would even manage up.
uh, the chief of staff and keepthat person, aware of what was
going on, having a pulse,because as you get close to an
election cycle, the chief ofstaff can't be internal.
of staff has to then becomeexternal, externally facing with
the senator, right, with the,with the politico, with the
(04:27):
member, and then the day-to-dayis all on me.
Is all on me.
And also, you know, having ahistory.
I had been with that member for10
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (04:38):
Okay.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (04:38):
so I went from being the executive
aide to then becoming, you know,director of administration and
deputy chief of staff.
I have been and has.
Seen all of the intricacies ofthe organization as a whole from
looking at the numbers and thebudget to actually doing the
hiring of a, of a lot of thepositions that I manage, and
(05:02):
then managing multiple officesacross the state of Nevada and
in Washington DC Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (05:09):
And I'm always curious when you are
talking about, public office,they have a fixed tenure, so two
years, four years, six years,and what does that do to the
dynamic of the role?
You kind of mentioned, hey, whencertain cycles come up, chief of
staff goes from internal toexternal, along with their
member.
Is there any, I'm just curiousabout the difference between.
Public sector and private sectorwhere, you know, CEO could be as
(05:32):
short as a year, or could be aslong as, you know, decades and
decades.
So I'm just curious about thatdynamic.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (05:39):
Yeah.
Uh, a six year term for theSenate.
Uh, and if you're in the Houseof Representatives, it's two
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (05:45):
Yep.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (05:45):
tough because it's a constant
election.
You're constantly up forreelection and so you cannot
afford to ignore yourconstituents at all, in the
Senate there's a little bit of,leeway in, in that you can slow
walk a lot of things.
You could be more methodical.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (06:02):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (06:02):
you know, you can take time to
determine what you're going toget involved in, how you're
gonna get there and employ thestrategy.
Uh, so there's a lot, certainlya lot of strategy
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (06:11):
Yes, and our founding father set that
up that way in on purpose, so totheir great wisdom.
But thank you for sharing that.
That's super interesting.
So going from public office.
To office politics, which iswhat you kind of talk about now
in lots of different realms.
do people think about when theyhear leadership and employee
performance?
Those are two big terms, butwhat kind of comes up in your
(06:33):
world when you start talkingabout those things?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (06:36):
Well, I can tell you it's, there's an
absence of emotionalintelligence.
I can tell you that.
People think, a lot of peoplethink leadership is having a
title,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (06:45):
Hmm.
Oh.
tinna-jackson_1_11 (06:47):
C-E-O-C-O-O, director of this senior director
of this.
Some people think that it'stitle driven.
Others think.
That it's influence driven, andI can't necessarily disagree
with that.
I think that there are a lot ofpeople, uh, scattered throughout
organizations that do have alevel of trust and influence
more so than the person that'swell above them.
(07:09):
And that can be tricky for thepeople that are above in these
C-level positions because themore influential people are the
ones who have a real pulse onthe organization, the person who
actually knows the true.
About what's going on.
And they can be very powerfulbecause they have information
that could either help move theorganization further, you know,
(07:31):
forward if they share, ifthey're in a position to choose
to share that information, orthey withhold it and watch
things crumble.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (07:38):
Hmm.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (07:40):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (07:40):
Yeah.
So when you're working withteams or leaders who are dealing
with office politics, and Imean, I always say, look, if
you're dealing with two or morehumans, you're gonna have
conflict and disagreement.
And that can be productive andfine.
It also can be toxic and canbury you.
but what, what kind of thingsare you seeing and facing and
talking to, uh, the people youwork with about in terms of like
(08:01):
office politics and dynamics,and these two team members butt
heads and these two wholedepartments can't get along.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (08:08):
I can tell you that communication
is always the breakdown.
Communication is always an issuein every single organization.
from written communication to,you know, once you finally do
get together, and it's, theverbal breakdown.
It's also, the nonverbalcommunication,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (08:24):
yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (08:25):
the person, what they think, and you
can see it in their face.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (08:28):
Does it match up?
Yeah.
What you're saying doesn't matchyour face.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12- (08:32):
Feeling.
Um, so there's that.
But you know, the other part isI think that because we've been
remote for so long, it's brokendown how we can build with our
team members.
I really do.
I really do believe that, youknow, there was a time, you
know, before COVID.
maybe if you sent an email, you,thought twice because you could
(08:55):
just walk down to the person'soffice, stick your head in and
just have a conversation.
and it's done right now, and Ithink this has always been the
case with email.
You're doing a lot of, a lot ofCYA.
You're keeping more.
It's, it's tough.
and, and, and Zoom helps.
Don't get me wrong.
It does, but it's just verydifferent not being in person
(09:17):
and, and building a betterrapport with your colleagues.
So I do think communication is.
Is, is the big piece.
I think we've forgotten how tocommunicate effectively though,
and actually, kind of meaningwhat we say without having to
over clarify.
(09:38):
the truth of the matter is a lotof organizations are under ese.
Source, right?
We've seen news reports.
A lot of the federalgovernments, you know, a lot of
positions that have gone away,even corporate entities, are now
releasing thousands of people.
So the people that are leftholding the bag, holding the
work, they have to figure thingsout.
And so people are constantly.
(09:59):
either burnt out, frustrated,and they have to find a way to
communicate their concerns,without any backlash of, adding
to the numbers of departures.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (10:10):
Yeah.
So you've mentioned some thingsthat are a little bit, you know,
tricky, you know, with peoplenot being in person and people
communicating to kind of, youknow, CYA.
What would you advocate doing inthese, like if you, if you are
in a remote position or remotesetup, or even hybrid, what are
some things that you can do to.
communicate positively andeffectively.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (10:28):
I would probably do more.
I would probably do, I'massuming that people do their
one-on-one.
Right and do their, their groupmeetings or group team meetings.
But I would probably dosomething like a group game
night or something right onlineyou know, do a wind down
Thursday, wind down happy hour,or do a morning coffee, like
(10:50):
just everyone get online and.
You know, do a, do a quickcoffee chat, uh, a standup
meeting with coffee.
I would do like lunch andlearns.
I would provide professionaldevelopment opportunities.
any way to get peoplecommunicating more.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (11:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when I was chief of staff,our CEO and COO, and I would go
play Topgolf just every once ina while just to like sit there,
like hit the ball, you know, eatsome food and just kind of hang
out.
And sometimes we talked aboutwork and sometimes we didn't.
And it was just kind of sittingback and easing in to like just
being around this person anddeveloping relationships outside
of the.
(11:24):
What is the status update forthis initiative type of thing.
So I think that goes a long way.
You had mentioned, leadership asit's not a title, which I
totally agree with.
It can be influenced certainly,but that's maybe not the whole
picture.
you mentioned we we're lackingemotional intelligence with
which, uh, I can see all overthe place.
How does ego and leadership gotogether?
(11:46):
What's the interplay between egoand leadership?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (11:49):
Yeah, I think, I think there are
different kinds of ego, right?
Like I think you do have to havesome level of confidence and.
Boldness when you choose to gofor a promotion and take on a
leadership role where you aremanaging other people and also
managing the output, the out theoutcomes of those individuals,
(12:11):
right?
But the unhealthy ego wheresomeone is not self-aware.
And they are fully in beliefthat because I am chief this,
that you have to do what I saywhen I say it, and some things
may not make logical.
(12:33):
you know, I, I, I think thatthere are a lot of people, and I
hope there's, I hope that's nottrue, but I do believe that
there are just a lot of peoplethat can't handle what
leadership really is.
I, I do believe that leadershipis very simple.
Just be the good person.
Like, remember the boss?
(12:54):
We all remember the great bosseswe had.
We also are probably scarred bythe bad bosses.
My thing is, is don't leave ascar.
Okay?
Very simple.
Don't leave a
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (13:07):
You no harm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (13:09):
Right?
And, and what does that mean?
Like, you know, if, if you hearthat someone is not doing well,
check in on, I'm not sayingspend an hour, I'm saying stop
by and just say, how are youdoing and mean it.
Because if, if the tables wereturned, you would need that too.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (13:24):
Hmm.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (13:26):
know, have a, a little bit of empathy.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (13:28):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (13:29):
It'll poop on you sometimes, you know,
and that's a great, and that's agreat thing.
I do think that some peoplecarry their own baggage in
leadership.
You know, coats of armor thatare very difficult to break
down.
I think people walk into thesepositions, um, lacking trust,
trust of themselves, which thenmanifest.
Into micromanagement, I mean,I've had to give people
(13:53):
strategies on how to, how do youmanage a micromanager?
Well, you give them all theinformation upfront so they
don't have time to ask you whatthe status of that.
Just beat them to the punch.
You know, they're gonna ask youjust beat'em to the punch.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (14:06):
Yeah, and I've, I've seen a lot of
people go, I'm the CEO, or I'mthe COO, and therefore, like
there's, there's a double-edgedsword.
I know the right answer.
So just do what I say as youmentioned before.
And also like I'm unsure, so I'mgonna sit here and waffle and
kind of be unclear to the team.
And that's like sometimesequally as as damaging.
(14:28):
There's so many things youbrought up.
I have so many things going onin my head.
but it's kind of theperformative aspect of
leadership where it's like, letme do these things'cause this is
what a CEO is supposed to bedoing, so I'm gonna do these
things in a performative way andkind of disingenuous way.
And then like you said, likeasking someone like, Hey, how
are you doing?
And mean it.
That's a big piece I see missingwhere it's like we can say the
(14:49):
words, we can say the rightwords and we can say the
political things, but it's,it's, we're not actually.
Just dropping down to a humanlevel and saying like, how are
you doing?
Seriously?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (14:59):
Yeah.
You know, I think, I thinkyou're right.
There are, there are a lot ofleaders who have an idea of what
leadership is instead ofdefining.
leadership looks like for them.
you know, I'm sure that thereare all, there are all kinds of
images and ideas of what leadersare supposed to do.
I think that what you'resupposed to do is take care of
(15:21):
your staff and be, open, honest,and clear with them so that
whatever mission or vision youhave, the people will stand next
to you and push you.
Forward as the leader and followyou.
that comes with helping themtransform into the leaders they
need to be, um, to lead theirteams too.
and you know, they, you'reright, there are others who
(15:44):
lawful because they're just notsure.
They're, they're so inci.
They're paralyzed by indecision.
And instead of admitting it'sokay to say, hey.
I need some help on this.
What do you guys think?
This is the situation.
What do you guys think?
emily-sander_1_11-12-202 (16:05):
That's powerful, but that's so
powerful.
tinna-jackson_1_11- (16:08):
necessarily admitting that you don't know
what to do.
You are just asking forfeedback.
They are in the trenches.
They are doing the work.
They are managing the systems,they're developing the plans,
and you are coming up with thevision, so it's okay.
To go grassroots level andfigure out what's going on in
(16:29):
the field.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (16:30):
They might get you to a better answer
'cause they're closer to it.
They see it from a differentperspective.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (16:36):
and they have data.
They have the data, so ask thequestions.
The ones who are not asking thequestions, I think are more
problematic
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (16:43):
more scary
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (16:44):
Yeah, they're moving forward, making
decisions.
They have no, and that's goes totrust when your staff doesn't
trust you.
Oh, that's when
emily-sander_1_11-12 (16:51):
breakdown.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (16:52):
start to start to break down and
people start to leave.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (16:54):
Yeah, so Tina, I get so many questions
from people who go, well, Ican't do this because this
person is higher than me.
Like power dynamics, hierarchy.
I mean like, this is just howthey feel.
This is my boss and my boss'sboss, and there's nothing I can
do.
What would you say to a personwho's in that power dynamic
situation?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (17:13):
I would say, have you tried
talking with them or asking themfirst before you say that?
Because there's a fear there,right?
Because.
People immediately think I can'tbecause instead of thinking,
what if I did?
And it works out really well.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (17:28):
Ah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (17:31):
A lot of this is reframing, and
kind of getting over that fear.
You know, as a supervisor,manager, leader, you have a
responsibility to your team.
You have a responsibility to beavailable and to provide
direction when it's needed, andclarity when it's needed, and if
someone is fearful that theycan't ask a question or they
(17:51):
can't step forward and offer.
Support, that's a problem.
It's either an internal problemwith them or that leader has put
them in a position to think andfeel that they're not open, that
they're not reachable, they'renot accessible.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (18:08):
Yeah, I was just talking to someone
the other day and they were in asituation where they have tried
and they've seen other peopletry and they get shot down.
Those other people just get shotdown and so she's like, I've
said my piece, but this is justa battle.
I'm not gonna win, so I'm justgonna have to sit here and, and
like take it basically.
Is that a okay.
That might be a situation ifit's so bad, comprehensively, so
(18:30):
bad, you might need to look atother opportunities and get
yourself outta that situation.
Or if it's, Hey, this is notideal, but it's the situation
we're in right now for atemporary period of time.
How, how would you guide thatperson who's like, I've tried.
I, I really have, and it work.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (18:45):
Yeah.
You know, I think every leaderhas a primary influencer,
whether it's a chief of staff,whether it is a senior advisor
or someone.
There has to be someone thatthese people can go to and say,
Hey.
have these concerns.
I'm hitting a brick wall.
I'm afraid that if we don't doX, this could happen.
(19:08):
Right?
And I think that anytime you tryto hit someone with a pain
point, there's gotta be somerelief somehow.
And if the staff are willing to.
You the support to make surethat that relief, you know,
occurs.
That's a great thing, I thinkit's important to figure out who
these influential people are sothat when you're running into
(19:30):
these roadblocks that you can goto those people, those
individuals that can support thestaff in getting to that
principal's ear.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (19:39):
And I love what you said there.
I want chiefs of staff to goback and listen because very
likely you are that person.
For your executive and for yourteam.
So being that person who theycan come to and say, here's like
the solution, but here's theissue and here's, I need someone
to really listen to this andmake sure that the principal
knows about it and you candeliver it in whatever way you
want.
Chief of staff, you can bufferit, but I need to know that this
(20:00):
message is getting through.
So I think that's so, soimportant.
So thank you.
do, you deal a lot withnonprofits, so I'm wondering is
there a slightly different powerdynamic with a for-profit and a
nonprofit entity?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12 (20:12):
Somewhat.
I think it's, I thinknonprofits, are a little more
difficult because.
You know, there's a lot ofpassion.
There's a lot of passion,mission-driven work going on.
But that doesn't mean that theexecutive director or the
president and CEO knows how tomanage
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (20:29):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (20:30):
so there's that clash of, passion
and vision.
motivation and execution.
and, and if you don't have theright leader that can help make
good decisions on, employing theright staff, the organization is
gonna flail a little bit, thingsare gonna move slowly.
(20:54):
and it could be an issue forfunders, for board members.
Um, you know, work gets, worktravels really fast when things
aren't going well.
Um, and so, you know, thesenonprofits have to deal with
boards, right?
You've got boards who have adifferent view, a different
viewpoint, of what's going onand whatever landscape they're
(21:15):
in.
And you have CEOs and executivedirectors who are trying to move
a vision forward.
Sometimes they are both not inalignment
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (21:23):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (21:23):
can see pretty clearly what's not
working.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (21:27):
and you mentioned boards and I'm
like, boards have their wholeecosystem of power dynamics and
politics and it's kind of like,while you might not be in, in
that every day, you'd best beaware of what's going on so you
can kind of find your footingwhen you interact with the
board.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (21:42):
That's right.
That's right.
And, look, it's, it's tough.
A lot of boards are unpaid.
These are
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (21:48):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (21:50):
And then you've gotta wonder, okay,
do you guys, do you really have,the time to devote to helping us
move this vision forward?
You know, as a volunteer board,it's tough because usually they
have their own organizations.
To, to manage.
they may also be runningnonprofits.
(22:11):
They may also be in senior levelpositions in other
organizations.
Um, and I mean, with thepolitical climate and you know,
whether or not theseorganizations, these nonprofits
are federally funded, a lot ofthat has gone away.
And a lot of organizations havehad to think about, what's in
their future?
What does their future looklike?
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (22:29):
Yeah, if you're talking to a CEO or a
chief of staff who's workingwith the board where there's
politics swirling around, maybeyou've got some unpaid seats,
maybe you have some people whoare very vested and interested
in how the company's doing.
what advice would you give themjust in terms of like navigating
that whole dynamic?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (22:49):
The tough thing is managing those
relationships individually, ifyou
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (22:53):
Mm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (22:54):
look, relationships are very
important.
They're very critical.
I learned that very early in mycareer.
If you can spend time with eachboard member, do it.
I, and I know it's a lot ofwork.
I know that some of these boardsare, you know, 10, 20 people.
I don't care.
Do it because the more work youdo on the front end will save
you on the back end.
(23:16):
The, the deeper therelationships are that you
build, the easier it is tonavigate the personalities and
manage the information flow toyour boss.
Whether it's an executivedirector or CEO.
you could also be, you know,the, the problem solver for all
of the issues that come upbecause you're already aware of
(23:37):
them.
You can try to prevent them.
you know, you'll be in a, you'llbe better positioned to work
through them when they come up,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (23:44):
Yeah, and I always say, you know, for
chiefs of staff, build thefoundation with the
relationships with yourprincipal, with the ELT.
So that partly so that you canchallenge and you can have tough
conversations later on.
So if you do that like right outthe gate and it's nothing else
but just challenge, you're gonnahave a certain dynamic.
But if you set that foundation.
Upfront and take the time, thenyou're able to do that within a
(24:05):
safe kind of, uh, space.
on the flip side, if you'retalking to a board member or a
CEO who's like, look, I wannahave emotional intelligence.
I wanna have empathy.
I wanna ask how people are doingand really mean it, and I also
need this team to perform at ahigh level.
I mean, you can, you can carryboth things at the same time,
but I'm wondering how you advisepeople or kind of what your
(24:27):
philosophy is around, aroundthat.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (24:30):
I always like to ask board
members, why are you on thisboard?
Right?
Are are, is it, is it just toadd board member of
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (24:39):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (24:40):
To
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (24:41):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (24:41):
to your resume, you know, your
profile.
Um, because, you know, look,these nonprofits are, some of
them are struggling.
Um, and, and during those times,during those critical times in
crises, um, you need boardmembers to step up in different
ways, whether it's raising moremoney or reaching out to the
right people or tapping intotheir personal networks that
(25:03):
they themselves have builtthroughout their careers.
Um, and so I always like to ask.
You know, why are you on thisboard?
I think that's an interestingquestion because either they're
gonna be passionate about theissue, passionate about the
organization, and if they don'tknow, then you know, uh, yeah,
maybe it's time to take a lookat this board member and replace
(25:25):
that person at some point.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (25:27):
And just like a, a little side note
here, lots of people I think.
Believe that, oh, I have to beof a certain caliber or certain
place in my career to be on aboard.
And oftentimes boards arelooking for like passionate
people who like maybe have someexperience in this area, but
it's not necessarily a certainprofile or mold.
I'm just wondering what yourthoughts or experience are with
(25:48):
that.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (25:49):
Yeah.
You know, I.
A lot of the boards that I haveseen, I've seen some really
great boards.
I have, there's, there's somegreat boards.
Um, I think the ones thatstruggle are the ones where they
have no criteria
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (26:05):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (26:05):
for their board period.
Um, I'm actually working with a,a couple of nonprofits where
they're trying to their boards,um, and they've never
established, you know, what ittakes to be a board member
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_08 (26:17):
Oh
tinna-jackson_1_1 (26:17):
organization.
Well, that's the start, right?
There's no onboarding.
You don't have a philosophy, youdon't have committees and
responsibilities laid out.
Um, so a lot of board membersdon't know what their roles
should be, what their roles are.
emily-sander_1_11-12-20 (26:34):
That's, yeah, that's tough.
Yeah.
Well, you don't know what you'retrying to do or how you're
trying to do it.
That's, that's tough.
Um, so your book, the Power PlayJournal, who is that for?
How, who does that help?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (26:46):
Oh my gosh.
a part of me that wants to sayit's for everyone.
Technically it's, when I, when Iwas writing that book, I was
thinking of my colleagues at thetime, you know, working in
national politics.
I was with the politicalcommittee.
and a lot of people, it's easyin po I'm, that's wrong.
I'm not gonna say.
Easy.
(27:06):
was gonna say, it's easy to bepromoted in politics.
That is not true.
think that if you are anyorganization and you're a
trustworthy person and you dogood work, you are going to get
promoted if you communicatewell, which is one of the
highest levels of value in manyorganizations,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (27:23):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (27:24):
If you communicate well, you will
get promoted.
but there's always a missingpiece.
There's always managementtraining that's missing.
It's like, Hey, you did reallywell on this.
Let's promote you and give youthis opportunity.
But it's like, okay, they'venever managed anyone before.
Now they're managing 12 people.
emily-sander_1_11-12- (27:42):
Different skillset.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (27:44):
12 people, um, not 10, 12.
and so if you've never exercisedthat muscle, you've never
managed a project involvingmultiple people, if you don't
have the self-awareness to knowwhat makes you tick as an
employee, what's gonna makeothers tick and hold on, what's
(28:07):
gonna make them tick when youspeak to them?
Some people, um, have multiplepersonalities when they're
managing.
They're one way with this group.
They're another way with thisgroup.
they may have closer, uh, closerties to someone else.
'cause remember, they're,they're going from pe.
Promotions, they're going frompeer to manager.
(28:27):
and that's a, that's a struggle.
Some people struggle with now,being the boss.
And what are my friends gonnathink of me now?
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (28:35):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (28:35):
have treat them?
Do I have to, I have to actdifferently.
I'm the boss now, but I can'tact differently with them
because they're gonna think X ofme.
those are really tough to, toreconcile.
So when I was writing that book,I was trying to think of ways
where I could be really toughand make people self-reflect.
(28:56):
At the end of each strategy Idiscuss, but also think of it
logically.
What are the skills that youneed when you become a leader?
Strategic planning, you gotta beresilient.
You gotta be ethical, right?
You have to think about thelegacy that you're building, you
know, throughout your career.
And so there's a part of me thatbelieves it's kind of an
(29:17):
instruction manual for anyonethat wants to, anyone that wants
to go into leadership.
You know, whether you're inpolitics, in a nonprofit, or.
you are the manager atChick-fil-A, right?
You're, you're managing a line,you're managing people, right?
And so, yeah, it's for anyonewho's aspiring to lead or who's
already in those positions andneeds support,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (29:37):
Very cool.
So it kind of sounds like, Ilike the self-reflection part
where it's like, Hey, take justa dedicated time at the end of
each chapter section to thinkabout what are, what are my
strengths and what are my growthareas, because so many people
skip that step and just don'tunderstand themselves and then
go out into the world and wonderwhy things happen.
(29:57):
so I like that you havededicated pieces at the end of
each section for that.
yeah.
And it's kinda like a tool bookor a toolkit for people going
out into new levels ofleadership or new levels of
power.
Is that, is that fair?
Accurate to say?
Oh.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (30:13):
Like there's one.
There's, um, the, probably themost lengthy chapter in, uh, in
the book is strategic planning.
if you can't vision the futureand how to build that capacity
to get to that future, it'sgonna be tough as a leader,
especially in nonprofit.
You're dealing with the board.
They wanna know what, what'syour vision?
(30:34):
What are we doing?
What are we doing for the nextthree to five years?
You know?
Um, and if you, if you don'thave answers for that, if you
haven't had those thoughts, ifyou're just dealing with the day
to day and you don't take timeto step back and plan for the
future, what are you doing thisfor?
What are your goals?
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (30:51):
Yeah.
Yeah,
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (30:52):
so,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (30:52):
power play journal, and then you also
have group coaching, so just alittle touch on that.
Who would benefit from yourgroup coaching program?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (30:59):
Oh, yes.
So I gotta tell you, a lot ofwhat I built based on past voids
for myself throughout my career.
Coming up in my career, I didnot have many mentors.
I didn't.
have a mentor until I got to theSenate.
so before working in the Senate,I had already been working like
10, 12 years.
(31:20):
Um, and so when I startedbuilding this group coaching
program, it's called Pivot toPower.
One of the things I wanted toreconcile was.
The effective performance ofemployees and impactful
leadership.
Right?
so I'm walking into theseorganizations with my CEO
coaching clients or, you know,organizational management
(31:42):
clients.
And then I'm talking to staff.
I, I, it's like we're talkingabout the same organization, but
we're talking about twodifferent organiz.
It's possible.
Okay.
The leaders of theseorganizations have one idea of
how the organization is doingand how they feel about the
staff.
The staff has a totallydifferent view of where the
organization is going, what theyshould be, and so there's like
(32:05):
no clarity.
So I'm like, how do youreconcile that?
Okay.
And so I built pivot to power totry to close that gap
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (32:11):
Ah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (32:12):
facing it on emotional intelligence,
having, you know, a.
A junior level program with,with c with, with professionals
who can get monthly groupcoaching, right.
And then there's a portal withsome, um, some recorded content.
Um, but then I have a 90 dayaccelerator called Strategic
Focus.
These are the people that areworking closely with the C
(32:33):
street or with the C-suite orare trying to get there and what
it's gonna take to get there.
So there's a lot of, there's alot of conflict management,
there's a lot of there.
It's, it's live hot.
Seat group coaching andconsulting on a weekly basis.
The reason I built the programthat way, and I've had people
tell me, you're gonna burn out,I'm like, no, I'm not.
It's this is, this is necessarybecause I have, I've been in
(32:57):
other coaching programs myself.
You're a coach, you've done thistoo.
I hate when I have a questionand someone tells me to go read
module,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (33:06):
Ah, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (33:08):
It's like, answer my question right
now and, and the reason Istructured it this way is the
reality is people are in crisis.
If you look on TikTok, peopleare crying every day.
People are in their car prayingbefore they go to work.
People need a space to sit withpeople that are going through
the same thing.
They're going through that theyhave the same challenges.
(33:29):
They need to hear from eachother and build community.
They also need advice andsupport on the spot.
Um, one of the things I added tothe program this year, later
this year was, um, AI support.
So I have my own bot, her name'sShelly.
Um.
Like having Tina Jackson in yourback pocket, because you know
people have issues in the middleof the night.
(33:50):
And I'm not gonna wake up in themiddle of the night'cause I can
choose now so they can useShelly and get some of their
questions answered.
and then I have what's called aninner circle for my CEO clients.
The way and the way I structuredthis inner circle is that they
can actually bring along someonein the strategic focus program
and the mentorship program as.
(34:13):
participation.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (34:14):
Okay.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (34:14):
it allows them to do a little bit
of succession planning throughthe program.
So.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_08 (34:21):
So you got book, you got programs,
you got coaching where ifsomeone's like, oh my gosh, I
need to reach out to Tina.
I need to join one of theseprograms, or at least check out
her book, where is the bestplace to find all that
information?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12- (34:32):
Awesome.
So the book is on, uh, is onAmazon.
It's the Power Play Journal,battle Tested Strategies for,
uh, for uh, impactfulleadership.
And, uh, I'm on LinkedIn, TinaJackson, I'm on, everything is
Tina Jackson.
So Tina with two Ns,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (34:47):
with two ends.
That's right.
We'll have all that in the shownotes as well.
But Tina, thank you very muchfor being here.
Really appreciated theconversation.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12- (34:55):
Awesome.
Thank you so.
Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership.
Tina Jackson joins me today.
She is the author of the PowerPlay Journal and founder of
Jackson Consulting Group.
And after years of workingacross government, business and
nonprofits, she helps leadersnavigate power and politics with
clarity and confidence.
Tina, welcome to the show.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (00:45):
Yes.
Yes, Emily.
Thank you for having me.
emily-sander_1_11-12 (00:47):
Beautiful.
So can you just give us a briefbackground of, of who you are
and, and how you got to whatyou're doing now?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (00:54):
Yes, absolutely.
So I'm born and raised inWashington, DC it's the like,
powerhouse of power, right?
Um, and so I spent the majorityof my career in national
politics 10 years.
10 and a half years of that timewas.
Spent in the US Senate and halfof that time was, uh, as deputy
chief of staff.
emily-sander_1_11-12 (01:11):
Beautiful.
Well, let's start there'cause Iknow we have chiefs of staff
listening who ears just perkedup.
So tell us about your time asDeputy Chief of Staff for, for a
member of the Senate.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (01:21):
Yeah, it was not without difficulty.
Right.
Um, you know, when you'reworking for someone high
profile, um, you know, any CEOwould be high profile, right?
Um, it, um, not withoutdifficulty, it was a lot of
losing sleep.
I can tell you that.
It was definitely a toughbalance between, you know,
(01:42):
helping someone with theirmission, organizing their
priorities, and helping themdetermine what their priorities
should be based on the landscapeyou are seeing, um, and
reconciling that.
The landscape that they see.
So, um, you know, on top of thatwas also managing the day-to-day
popups of staff drama, right?
I mean, any chief of staff,chief of staff, chief of stuff,
(02:06):
whatever.
just, you know, dealing withpersonnel was a big chunk of
that because we're all workingtogether to, to move the work.
and.
You know, someone has a bad day,they wanna talk to you about it,
which is interesting becauseclearly you've gotten to a point
where staff trusts
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (02:26):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (02:26):
that's very important.
But with that comes, uh, lesstime for you to download and
take a breather and, um, youknow, reconcile your own
thoughts.
It was just a constant.
Go, go, go.
but a tough balance between therest that you need to recharge
and do it all over again thenext day.
to, you know, being effective inyour role consistently on a
(02:51):
daily basis, uh, especially whenthe boss has a question or has a
bright idea that they've gottenin the middle of the night.
And who do they call?
The, the chief of staff, deputychiefs or the, you know, the
person that they trust the most.
So I'm sure everyone, all chiefsof staff, uh, go through
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (03:08):
lots of nodding heads listening.
Yes.
And I'm curious, were youinteracting with what you know,
the chief of staff with thesenator, who was your kind of
primary point of contact?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2 (03:18):
Primary point of contact with the, was
the senator
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (03:21):
Okay.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (03:22):
and the chief of staff equally,
because at some point, you know,when you're working for, uh, for
a, uh, politico, if you will, ofstaff is sort of on this.
Same level as the member in manyways, right?
The member is the talking head,the mouthpiece, the person that
is out and about kissing babiesand you know, meeting with
(03:42):
constituents.
The chief of staff is on theback end doing kind of the.
Backend work and thestrategizing and the fundraising
to get the, to keep that memberin office.
Right.
And so then there was myposition that was somewhat
supporting both of them indifferent ways.
Right?
I would be the first line ofdefense for the senator.
(04:04):
I would even manage up.
uh, the chief of staff and keepthat person, aware of what was
going on, having a pulse,because as you get close to an
election cycle, the chief ofstaff can't be internal.
of staff has to then becomeexternal, externally facing with
the senator, right, with the,with the politico, with the
(04:27):
member, and then the day-to-dayis all on me.
Is all on me.
And also, you know, having ahistory.
I had been with that member for10
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (04:38):
Okay.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (04:38):
so I went from being the executive
aide to then becoming, you know,director of administration and
deputy chief of staff.
I have been and has.
Seen all of the intricacies ofthe organization as a whole from
looking at the numbers and thebudget to actually doing the
hiring of a, of a lot of thepositions that I manage, and
(05:02):
then managing multiple officesacross the state of Nevada and
in Washington DC Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (05:09):
And I'm always curious when you are
talking about, public office,they have a fixed tenure, so two
years, four years, six years,and what does that do to the
dynamic of the role?
You kind of mentioned, hey, whencertain cycles come up, chief of
staff goes from internal toexternal, along with their
member.
Is there any, I'm just curiousabout the difference between.
Public sector and private sectorwhere, you know, CEO could be as
(05:32):
short as a year, or could be aslong as, you know, decades and
decades.
So I'm just curious about thatdynamic.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (05:39):
Yeah.
Uh, a six year term for theSenate.
Uh, and if you're in the Houseof Representatives, it's two
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (05:45):
Yep.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (05:45):
tough because it's a constant
election.
You're constantly up forreelection and so you cannot
afford to ignore yourconstituents at all, in the
Senate there's a little bit of,leeway in, in that you can slow
walk a lot of things.
You could be more methodical.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (06:02):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (06:02):
you know, you can take time to
determine what you're going toget involved in, how you're
gonna get there and employ thestrategy.
Uh, so there's a lot, certainlya lot of strategy
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (06:11):
Yes, and our founding father set that
up that way in on purpose, so totheir great wisdom.
But thank you for sharing that.
That's super interesting.
So going from public office.
To office politics, which iswhat you kind of talk about now
in lots of different realms.
do people think about when theyhear leadership and employee
performance?
Those are two big terms, butwhat kind of comes up in your
(06:33):
world when you start talkingabout those things?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (06:36):
Well, I can tell you it's, there's an
absence of emotionalintelligence.
I can tell you that.
People think, a lot of peoplethink leadership is having a
title,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (06:45):
Hmm.
Oh.
tinna-jackson_1_11 (06:47):
C-E-O-C-O-O, director of this senior director
of this.
Some people think that it'stitle driven.
Others think.
That it's influence driven, andI can't necessarily disagree
with that.
I think that there are a lot ofpeople, uh, scattered throughout
organizations that do have alevel of trust and influence
more so than the person that'swell above them.
(07:09):
And that can be tricky for thepeople that are above in these
C-level positions because themore influential people are the
ones who have a real pulse onthe organization, the person who
actually knows the true.
About what's going on.
And they can be very powerfulbecause they have information
that could either help move theorganization further, you know,
(07:31):
forward if they share, ifthey're in a position to choose
to share that information, orthey withhold it and watch
things crumble.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (07:38):
Hmm.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (07:40):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (07:40):
Yeah.
So when you're working withteams or leaders who are dealing
with office politics, and Imean, I always say, look, if
you're dealing with two or morehumans, you're gonna have
conflict and disagreement.
And that can be productive andfine.
It also can be toxic and canbury you.
but what, what kind of thingsare you seeing and facing and
talking to, uh, the people youwork with about in terms of like
(08:01):
office politics and dynamics,and these two team members butt
heads and these two wholedepartments can't get along.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (08:08):
I can tell you that communication
is always the breakdown.
Communication is always an issuein every single organization.
from written communication to,you know, once you finally do
get together, and it's, theverbal breakdown.
It's also, the nonverbalcommunication,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (08:24):
yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (08:25):
the person, what they think, and you
can see it in their face.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (08:28):
Does it match up?
Yeah.
What you're saying doesn't matchyour face.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12- (08:32):
Feeling.
Um, so there's that.
But you know, the other part isI think that because we've been
remote for so long, it's brokendown how we can build with our
team members.
I really do.
I really do believe that, youknow, there was a time, you
know, before COVID.
maybe if you sent an email, you,thought twice because you could
(08:55):
just walk down to the person'soffice, stick your head in and
just have a conversation.
and it's done right now, and Ithink this has always been the
case with email.
You're doing a lot of, a lot ofCYA.
You're keeping more.
It's, it's tough.
and, and, and Zoom helps.
Don't get me wrong.
It does, but it's just verydifferent not being in person
(09:17):
and, and building a betterrapport with your colleagues.
So I do think communication is.
Is, is the big piece.
I think we've forgotten how tocommunicate effectively though,
and actually, kind of meaningwhat we say without having to
over clarify.
(09:38):
the truth of the matter is a lotof organizations are under ese.
Source, right?
We've seen news reports.
A lot of the federalgovernments, you know, a lot of
positions that have gone away,even corporate entities, are now
releasing thousands of people.
So the people that are leftholding the bag, holding the
work, they have to figure thingsout.
And so people are constantly.
(09:59):
either burnt out, frustrated,and they have to find a way to
communicate their concerns,without any backlash of, adding
to the numbers of departures.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (10:10):
Yeah.
So you've mentioned some thingsthat are a little bit, you know,
tricky, you know, with peoplenot being in person and people
communicating to kind of, youknow, CYA.
What would you advocate doing inthese, like if you, if you are
in a remote position or remotesetup, or even hybrid, what are
some things that you can do to.
communicate positively andeffectively.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (10:28):
I would probably do more.
I would probably do, I'massuming that people do their
one-on-one.
Right and do their, their groupmeetings or group team meetings.
But I would probably dosomething like a group game
night or something right onlineyou know, do a wind down
Thursday, wind down happy hour,or do a morning coffee, like
(10:50):
just everyone get online and.
You know, do a, do a quickcoffee chat, uh, a standup
meeting with coffee.
I would do like lunch andlearns.
I would provide professionaldevelopment opportunities.
any way to get peoplecommunicating more.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (11:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when I was chief of staff,our CEO and COO, and I would go
play Topgolf just every once ina while just to like sit there,
like hit the ball, you know, eatsome food and just kind of hang
out.
And sometimes we talked aboutwork and sometimes we didn't.
And it was just kind of sittingback and easing in to like just
being around this person anddeveloping relationships outside
of the.
(11:24):
What is the status update forthis initiative type of thing.
So I think that goes a long way.
You had mentioned, leadership asit's not a title, which I
totally agree with.
It can be influenced certainly,but that's maybe not the whole
picture.
you mentioned we we're lackingemotional intelligence with
which, uh, I can see all overthe place.
How does ego and leadership gotogether?
(11:46):
What's the interplay between egoand leadership?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (11:49):
Yeah, I think, I think there are
different kinds of ego, right?
Like I think you do have to havesome level of confidence and.
Boldness when you choose to gofor a promotion and take on a
leadership role where you aremanaging other people and also
managing the output, the out theoutcomes of those individuals,
(12:11):
right?
But the unhealthy ego wheresomeone is not self-aware.
And they are fully in beliefthat because I am chief this,
that you have to do what I saywhen I say it, and some things
may not make logical.
(12:33):
you know, I, I, I think thatthere are a lot of people, and I
hope there's, I hope that's nottrue, but I do believe that
there are just a lot of peoplethat can't handle what
leadership really is.
I, I do believe that leadershipis very simple.
Just be the good person.
Like, remember the boss?
(12:54):
We all remember the great bosseswe had.
We also are probably scarred bythe bad bosses.
My thing is, is don't leave ascar.
Okay?
Very simple.
Don't leave a
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (13:07):
You no harm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (13:09):
Right?
And, and what does that mean?
Like, you know, if, if you hearthat someone is not doing well,
check in on, I'm not sayingspend an hour, I'm saying stop
by and just say, how are youdoing and mean it.
Because if, if the tables wereturned, you would need that too.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (13:24):
Hmm.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (13:26):
know, have a, a little bit of empathy.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (13:28):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (13:29):
It'll poop on you sometimes, you know,
and that's a great, and that's agreat thing.
I do think that some peoplecarry their own baggage in
leadership.
You know, coats of armor thatare very difficult to break
down.
I think people walk into thesepositions, um, lacking trust,
trust of themselves, which thenmanifest.
Into micromanagement, I mean,I've had to give people
(13:53):
strategies on how to, how do youmanage a micromanager?
Well, you give them all theinformation upfront so they
don't have time to ask you whatthe status of that.
Just beat them to the punch.
You know, they're gonna ask youjust beat'em to the punch.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (14:06):
Yeah, and I've, I've seen a lot of
people go, I'm the CEO, or I'mthe COO, and therefore, like
there's, there's a double-edgedsword.
I know the right answer.
So just do what I say as youmentioned before.
And also like I'm unsure, so I'mgonna sit here and waffle and
kind of be unclear to the team.
And that's like sometimesequally as as damaging.
(14:28):
There's so many things youbrought up.
I have so many things going onin my head.
but it's kind of theperformative aspect of
leadership where it's like, letme do these things'cause this is
what a CEO is supposed to bedoing, so I'm gonna do these
things in a performative way andkind of disingenuous way.
And then like you said, likeasking someone like, Hey, how
are you doing?
And mean it.
That's a big piece I see missingwhere it's like we can say the
(14:49):
words, we can say the rightwords and we can say the
political things, but it's,it's, we're not actually.
Just dropping down to a humanlevel and saying like, how are
you doing?
Seriously?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (14:59):
Yeah.
You know, I think, I thinkyou're right.
There are, there are a lot ofleaders who have an idea of what
leadership is instead ofdefining.
leadership looks like for them.
you know, I'm sure that thereare all, there are all kinds of
images and ideas of what leadersare supposed to do.
I think that what you'resupposed to do is take care of
(15:21):
your staff and be, open, honest,and clear with them so that
whatever mission or vision youhave, the people will stand next
to you and push you.
Forward as the leader and followyou.
that comes with helping themtransform into the leaders they
need to be, um, to lead theirteams too.
and you know, they, you'reright, there are others who
(15:44):
lawful because they're just notsure.
They're, they're so inci.
They're paralyzed by indecision.
And instead of admitting it'sokay to say, hey.
I need some help on this.
What do you guys think?
This is the situation.
What do you guys think?
emily-sander_1_11-12-202 (16:05):
That's powerful, but that's so
powerful.
tinna-jackson_1_11- (16:08):
necessarily admitting that you don't know
what to do.
You are just asking forfeedback.
They are in the trenches.
They are doing the work.
They are managing the systems,they're developing the plans,
and you are coming up with thevision, so it's okay.
To go grassroots level andfigure out what's going on in
(16:29):
the field.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (16:30):
They might get you to a better answer
'cause they're closer to it.
They see it from a differentperspective.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (16:36):
and they have data.
They have the data, so ask thequestions.
The ones who are not asking thequestions, I think are more
problematic
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (16:43):
more scary
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (16:44):
Yeah, they're moving forward, making
decisions.
They have no, and that's goes totrust when your staff doesn't
trust you.
Oh, that's when
emily-sander_1_11-12 (16:51):
breakdown.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (16:52):
start to start to break down and
people start to leave.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (16:54):
Yeah, so Tina, I get so many questions
from people who go, well, Ican't do this because this
person is higher than me.
Like power dynamics, hierarchy.
I mean like, this is just howthey feel.
This is my boss and my boss'sboss, and there's nothing I can
do.
What would you say to a personwho's in that power dynamic
situation?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (17:13):
I would say, have you tried
talking with them or asking themfirst before you say that?
Because there's a fear there,right?
Because.
People immediately think I can'tbecause instead of thinking,
what if I did?
And it works out really well.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (17:28):
Ah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (17:31):
A lot of this is reframing, and
kind of getting over that fear.
You know, as a supervisor,manager, leader, you have a
responsibility to your team.
You have a responsibility to beavailable and to provide
direction when it's needed, andclarity when it's needed, and if
someone is fearful that theycan't ask a question or they
(17:51):
can't step forward and offer.
Support, that's a problem.
It's either an internal problemwith them or that leader has put
them in a position to think andfeel that they're not open, that
they're not reachable, they'renot accessible.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (18:08):
Yeah, I was just talking to someone
the other day and they were in asituation where they have tried
and they've seen other peopletry and they get shot down.
Those other people just get shotdown and so she's like, I've
said my piece, but this is justa battle.
I'm not gonna win, so I'm justgonna have to sit here and, and
like take it basically.
Is that a okay.
That might be a situation ifit's so bad, comprehensively, so
(18:30):
bad, you might need to look atother opportunities and get
yourself outta that situation.
Or if it's, Hey, this is notideal, but it's the situation
we're in right now for atemporary period of time.
How, how would you guide thatperson who's like, I've tried.
I, I really have, and it work.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (18:45):
Yeah.
You know, I think every leaderhas a primary influencer,
whether it's a chief of staff,whether it is a senior advisor
or someone.
There has to be someone thatthese people can go to and say,
Hey.
have these concerns.
I'm hitting a brick wall.
I'm afraid that if we don't doX, this could happen.
(19:08):
Right?
And I think that anytime you tryto hit someone with a pain
point, there's gotta be somerelief somehow.
And if the staff are willing to.
You the support to make surethat that relief, you know,
occurs.
That's a great thing, I thinkit's important to figure out who
these influential people are sothat when you're running into
(19:30):
these roadblocks that you can goto those people, those
individuals that can support thestaff in getting to that
principal's ear.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (19:39):
And I love what you said there.
I want chiefs of staff to goback and listen because very
likely you are that person.
For your executive and for yourteam.
So being that person who theycan come to and say, here's like
the solution, but here's theissue and here's, I need someone
to really listen to this andmake sure that the principal
knows about it and you candeliver it in whatever way you
want.
Chief of staff, you can bufferit, but I need to know that this
(20:00):
message is getting through.
So I think that's so, soimportant.
So thank you.
do, you deal a lot withnonprofits, so I'm wondering is
there a slightly different powerdynamic with a for-profit and a
nonprofit entity?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12 (20:12):
Somewhat.
I think it's, I thinknonprofits, are a little more
difficult because.
You know, there's a lot ofpassion.
There's a lot of passion,mission-driven work going on.
But that doesn't mean that theexecutive director or the
president and CEO knows how tomanage
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (20:29):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (20:30):
so there's that clash of, passion
and vision.
motivation and execution.
and, and if you don't have theright leader that can help make
good decisions on, employing theright staff, the organization is
gonna flail a little bit, thingsare gonna move slowly.
(20:54):
and it could be an issue forfunders, for board members.
Um, you know, work gets, worktravels really fast when things
aren't going well.
Um, and so, you know, thesenonprofits have to deal with
boards, right?
You've got boards who have adifferent view, a different
viewpoint, of what's going onand whatever landscape they're
(21:15):
in.
And you have CEOs and executivedirectors who are trying to move
a vision forward.
Sometimes they are both not inalignment
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (21:23):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (21:23):
can see pretty clearly what's not
working.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (21:27):
and you mentioned boards and I'm
like, boards have their wholeecosystem of power dynamics and
politics and it's kind of like,while you might not be in, in
that every day, you'd best beaware of what's going on so you
can kind of find your footingwhen you interact with the
board.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (21:42):
That's right.
That's right.
And, look, it's, it's tough.
A lot of boards are unpaid.
These are
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (21:48):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (21:50):
And then you've gotta wonder, okay,
do you guys, do you really have,the time to devote to helping us
move this vision forward?
You know, as a volunteer board,it's tough because usually they
have their own organizations.
To, to manage.
they may also be runningnonprofits.
(22:11):
They may also be in senior levelpositions in other
organizations.
Um, and I mean, with thepolitical climate and you know,
whether or not theseorganizations, these nonprofits
are federally funded, a lot ofthat has gone away.
And a lot of organizations havehad to think about, what's in
their future?
What does their future looklike?
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (22:29):
Yeah, if you're talking to a CEO or a
chief of staff who's workingwith the board where there's
politics swirling around, maybeyou've got some unpaid seats,
maybe you have some people whoare very vested and interested
in how the company's doing.
what advice would you give themjust in terms of like navigating
that whole dynamic?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (22:49):
The tough thing is managing those
relationships individually, ifyou
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (22:53):
Mm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (22:54):
look, relationships are very
important.
They're very critical.
I learned that very early in mycareer.
If you can spend time with eachboard member, do it.
I, and I know it's a lot ofwork.
I know that some of these boardsare, you know, 10, 20 people.
I don't care.
Do it because the more work youdo on the front end will save
you on the back end.
(23:16):
The, the deeper therelationships are that you
build, the easier it is tonavigate the personalities and
manage the information flow toyour boss.
Whether it's an executivedirector or CEO.
you could also be, you know,the, the problem solver for all
of the issues that come upbecause you're already aware of
(23:37):
them.
You can try to prevent them.
you know, you'll be in a, you'llbe better positioned to work
through them when they come up,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (23:44):
Yeah, and I always say, you know, for
chiefs of staff, build thefoundation with the
relationships with yourprincipal, with the ELT.
So that partly so that you canchallenge and you can have tough
conversations later on.
So if you do that like right outthe gate and it's nothing else
but just challenge, you're gonnahave a certain dynamic.
But if you set that foundation.
Upfront and take the time, thenyou're able to do that within a
(24:05):
safe kind of, uh, space.
on the flip side, if you'retalking to a board member or a
CEO who's like, look, I wannahave emotional intelligence.
I wanna have empathy.
I wanna ask how people are doingand really mean it, and I also
need this team to perform at ahigh level.
I mean, you can, you can carryboth things at the same time,
but I'm wondering how you advisepeople or kind of what your
(24:27):
philosophy is around, aroundthat.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_11 (24:30):
I always like to ask board
members, why are you on thisboard?
Right?
Are are, is it, is it just toadd board member of
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (24:39):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (24:40):
To
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (24:41):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (24:41):
to your resume, you know, your
profile.
Um, because, you know, look,these nonprofits are, some of
them are struggling.
Um, and, and during those times,during those critical times in
crises, um, you need boardmembers to step up in different
ways, whether it's raising moremoney or reaching out to the
right people or tapping intotheir personal networks that
(25:03):
they themselves have builtthroughout their careers.
Um, and so I always like to ask.
You know, why are you on thisboard?
I think that's an interestingquestion because either they're
gonna be passionate about theissue, passionate about the
organization, and if they don'tknow, then you know, uh, yeah,
maybe it's time to take a lookat this board member and replace
(25:25):
that person at some point.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (25:27):
And just like a, a little side note
here, lots of people I think.
Believe that, oh, I have to beof a certain caliber or certain
place in my career to be on aboard.
And oftentimes boards arelooking for like passionate
people who like maybe have someexperience in this area, but
it's not necessarily a certainprofile or mold.
I'm just wondering what yourthoughts or experience are with
(25:48):
that.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-202 (25:49):
Yeah.
You know, I.
A lot of the boards that I haveseen, I've seen some really
great boards.
I have, there's, there's somegreat boards.
Um, I think the ones thatstruggle are the ones where they
have no criteria
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (26:05):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (26:05):
for their board period.
Um, I'm actually working with a,a couple of nonprofits where
they're trying to their boards,um, and they've never
established, you know, what ittakes to be a board member
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_08 (26:17):
Oh
tinna-jackson_1_1 (26:17):
organization.
Well, that's the start, right?
There's no onboarding.
You don't have a philosophy, youdon't have committees and
responsibilities laid out.
Um, so a lot of board membersdon't know what their roles
should be, what their roles are.
emily-sander_1_11-12-20 (26:34):
That's, yeah, that's tough.
Yeah.
Well, you don't know what you'retrying to do or how you're
trying to do it.
That's, that's tough.
Um, so your book, the Power PlayJournal, who is that for?
How, who does that help?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (26:46):
Oh my gosh.
a part of me that wants to sayit's for everyone.
Technically it's, when I, when Iwas writing that book, I was
thinking of my colleagues at thetime, you know, working in
national politics.
I was with the politicalcommittee.
and a lot of people, it's easyin po I'm, that's wrong.
I'm not gonna say.
Easy.
(27:06):
was gonna say, it's easy to bepromoted in politics.
That is not true.
think that if you are anyorganization and you're a
trustworthy person and you dogood work, you are going to get
promoted if you communicatewell, which is one of the
highest levels of value in manyorganizations,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (27:23):
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (27:24):
If you communicate well, you will
get promoted.
but there's always a missingpiece.
There's always managementtraining that's missing.
It's like, Hey, you did reallywell on this.
Let's promote you and give youthis opportunity.
But it's like, okay, they'venever managed anyone before.
Now they're managing 12 people.
emily-sander_1_11-12- (27:42):
Different skillset.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (27:44):
12 people, um, not 10, 12.
and so if you've never exercisedthat muscle, you've never
managed a project involvingmultiple people, if you don't
have the self-awareness to knowwhat makes you tick as an
employee, what's gonna makeothers tick and hold on, what's
(28:07):
gonna make them tick when youspeak to them?
Some people, um, have multiplepersonalities when they're
managing.
They're one way with this group.
They're another way with thisgroup.
they may have closer, uh, closerties to someone else.
'cause remember, they're,they're going from pe.
Promotions, they're going frompeer to manager.
(28:27):
and that's a, that's a struggle.
Some people struggle with now,being the boss.
And what are my friends gonnathink of me now?
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (28:35):
Hmm.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (28:35):
have treat them?
Do I have to, I have to actdifferently.
I'm the boss now, but I can'tact differently with them
because they're gonna think X ofme.
those are really tough to, toreconcile.
So when I was writing that book,I was trying to think of ways
where I could be really toughand make people self-reflect.
(28:56):
At the end of each strategy Idiscuss, but also think of it
logically.
What are the skills that youneed when you become a leader?
Strategic planning, you gotta beresilient.
You gotta be ethical, right?
You have to think about thelegacy that you're building, you
know, throughout your career.
And so there's a part of me thatbelieves it's kind of an
(29:17):
instruction manual for anyonethat wants to, anyone that wants
to go into leadership.
You know, whether you're inpolitics, in a nonprofit, or.
you are the manager atChick-fil-A, right?
You're, you're managing a line,you're managing people, right?
And so, yeah, it's for anyonewho's aspiring to lead or who's
already in those positions andneeds support,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (29:37):
Very cool.
So it kind of sounds like, Ilike the self-reflection part
where it's like, Hey, take justa dedicated time at the end of
each chapter section to thinkabout what are, what are my
strengths and what are my growthareas, because so many people
skip that step and just don'tunderstand themselves and then
go out into the world and wonderwhy things happen.
(29:57):
so I like that you havededicated pieces at the end of
each section for that.
yeah.
And it's kinda like a tool bookor a toolkit for people going
out into new levels ofleadership or new levels of
power.
Is that, is that fair?
Accurate to say?
Oh.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (30:13):
Like there's one.
There's, um, the, probably themost lengthy chapter in, uh, in
the book is strategic planning.
if you can't vision the futureand how to build that capacity
to get to that future, it'sgonna be tough as a leader,
especially in nonprofit.
You're dealing with the board.
They wanna know what, what'syour vision?
(30:34):
What are we doing?
What are we doing for the nextthree to five years?
You know?
Um, and if you, if you don'thave answers for that, if you
haven't had those thoughts, ifyou're just dealing with the day
to day and you don't take timeto step back and plan for the
future, what are you doing thisfor?
What are your goals?
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (30:51):
Yeah.
Yeah,
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (30:52):
so,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (30:52):
power play journal, and then you also
have group coaching, so just alittle touch on that.
Who would benefit from yourgroup coaching program?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_ (30:59):
Oh, yes.
So I gotta tell you, a lot ofwhat I built based on past voids
for myself throughout my career.
Coming up in my career, I didnot have many mentors.
I didn't.
have a mentor until I got to theSenate.
so before working in the Senate,I had already been working like
10, 12 years.
(31:20):
Um, and so when I startedbuilding this group coaching
program, it's called Pivot toPower.
One of the things I wanted toreconcile was.
The effective performance ofemployees and impactful
leadership.
Right?
so I'm walking into theseorganizations with my CEO
coaching clients or, you know,organizational management
(31:42):
clients.
And then I'm talking to staff.
I, I, it's like we're talkingabout the same organization, but
we're talking about twodifferent organiz.
It's possible.
Okay.
The leaders of theseorganizations have one idea of
how the organization is doingand how they feel about the
staff.
The staff has a totallydifferent view of where the
organization is going, what theyshould be, and so there's like
(32:05):
no clarity.
So I'm like, how do youreconcile that?
Okay.
And so I built pivot to power totry to close that gap
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (32:11):
Ah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-20 (32:12):
facing it on emotional intelligence,
having, you know, a.
A junior level program with,with c with, with professionals
who can get monthly groupcoaching, right.
And then there's a portal withsome, um, some recorded content.
Um, but then I have a 90 dayaccelerator called Strategic
Focus.
These are the people that areworking closely with the C
(32:33):
street or with the C-suite orare trying to get there and what
it's gonna take to get there.
So there's a lot of, there's alot of conflict management,
there's a lot of there.
It's, it's live hot.
Seat group coaching andconsulting on a weekly basis.
The reason I built the programthat way, and I've had people
tell me, you're gonna burn out,I'm like, no, I'm not.
It's this is, this is necessarybecause I have, I've been in
(32:57):
other coaching programs myself.
You're a coach, you've done thistoo.
I hate when I have a questionand someone tells me to go read
module,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_0 (33:06):
Ah, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025 (33:08):
It's like, answer my question right
now and, and the reason Istructured it this way is the
reality is people are in crisis.
If you look on TikTok, peopleare crying every day.
People are in their car prayingbefore they go to work.
People need a space to sit withpeople that are going through
the same thing.
They're going through that theyhave the same challenges.
(33:29):
They need to hear from eachother and build community.
They also need advice andsupport on the spot.
Um, one of the things I added tothe program this year, later
this year was, um, AI support.
So I have my own bot, her name'sShelly.
Um.
Like having Tina Jackson in yourback pocket, because you know
people have issues in the middleof the night.
(33:50):
And I'm not gonna wake up in themiddle of the night'cause I can
choose now so they can useShelly and get some of their
questions answered.
and then I have what's called aninner circle for my CEO clients.
The way and the way I structuredthis inner circle is that they
can actually bring along someonein the strategic focus program
and the mentorship program as.
(34:13):
participation.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025 (34:14):
Okay.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12-2025_1 (34:14):
it allows them to do a little bit
of succession planning throughthe program.
So.
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_08 (34:21):
So you got book, you got programs,
you got coaching where ifsomeone's like, oh my gosh, I
need to reach out to Tina.
I need to join one of theseprograms, or at least check out
her book, where is the bestplace to find all that
information?
tinna-jackson_1_11-12- (34:32):
Awesome.
So the book is on, uh, is onAmazon.
It's the Power Play Journal,battle Tested Strategies for,
uh, for uh, impactfulleadership.
And, uh, I'm on LinkedIn, TinaJackson, I'm on, everything is
Tina Jackson.
So Tina with two Ns,
emily-sander_1_11-12-2025_ (34:47):
with two ends.
That's right.
We'll have all that in the shownotes as well.
But Tina, thank you very muchfor being here.
Really appreciated theconversation.
tinna-jackson_1_11-12- (34:55):
Awesome.
Thank you so.
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