August 20, 2025 • 31 mins
Emily shares a personal story about being made the interim leader of a digital marketing department as Chief of Staff, even though he knew nothing about digital marketing at the time. She talks about asking basic questions like "What does SEO stand for?" and dealing with colleagues who doubted her, including being called out during a team meeting. The episode highlights how not being a technical expert can actually be an advantage and gives tips for handling imposter syndrome by focusing on transferable skills and tracking your own progress.
Links Mentioned:
Free Resources:
- Strategic Planning Checklist
- Chief of Staff Skills Assessment Checklist
- A Day in the Life of a Chief of Staff
- Chief of Staff Toolkit
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Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
02:04 Emily's Story: Taking on a New Role
04:00 Facing Challenges and Learning on the Job
12:04 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Confidence
15:28 Navigating New Responsibilities
16:44 Building Confidence Through Experience
21:36 Embracing Vulnerability as a Leader
23:37 Redefining Imposter Syndrome
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_2_07-23-2025_16 (00:25):
if you are feeling imposter
syndrome as chief of staffbecause you don't have the deep
technical knowledge to run thisarea of the business.
Then this episode is for you,and one of the first things I'll
say is, you are not alone.
I speak with chiefs of staff andthis is a very common tale,
especially early in someone'stenure, but it can also happen
later on when, Hey, Emily, I wasgoing finance as chief of staff.
(00:48):
I had rhythm of business.
I was doing principlemanagement.
I was in my stride, all thesethings, and bam, I got put in
charge of this and oh.
I know nothing about that.
I know nothing.
They want me to run that.
I have people looking at melike, what the heck is she doing
in charge of that?
How dare he put that guy incharge of that?
He doesn't know nothing aboutwhat we do.
(01:08):
He can't manage us, type ofthing.
And then I get people coming tobe going I imposter syndrome.
Okay, so you're not alone.
I have spoken about this inprevious solo episodes, and I
have had some guests speak aboutthis topic as well.
In brief, very short recap ofwhat I've said in previous solo
episodes.
Not being the subject matterexpert can be an advantage.
(01:32):
Reason being chief of staff canask fresh questions, can bring a
fresh perspective, and sometimesthe subject matter experts know
too much for their own good andbeing able to translate or
communicate out what the subjectmatter experts are saying to
non-technical audiences anddifferent stakeholders.
Is critically important.
(01:53):
That translation, that buffercan be the make or break thing
for that team or that company.
So it can be a huge advantage inthat sense.
Okay.
That's a brief recap.
You can look at previousepisodes for more.
In this episode, what I want todo is, um, go through a little
story from when I was chief ofstaff, and the reason this is
coming up is because when I'mspeaking to people about
(02:14):
imposter syndrome in their chiefof staff roles, sometimes this
story will come up and I'llbring this up and I'll share
this.
And it tends to help.
And people go, oh, okay.
Well, when you say it like that,then it's not so bad.
And you can see their kind ofshoulders just drop and relax
and the stress just streams offthem.
(02:34):
I've done this over and over andover again now, and this is the
general response.
So I was like, Hey, let me sharethis an episode in case it is
helpful for you.
So here we go.
So, when I was chief of staff, Iwas the first.
Probably six to nine months.
Were solely dedicated on thecore business we had, and there
(02:55):
was a lot of stuff going on.
A lot of, a lot of stuff.
You know what I'm talking about.
You get into the chief of staffrole, you have like a hundred
different things you're doing atonce.
It was like big chunky stufflike leadership team and makeup
of leadership team and roles andpersonalities and stuff like
that.
Overhauling or revamping theaccount management team.
(03:16):
And that was a big piece of ourexisting business and retaining
existing clients, all thatstuff.
Other internal processes, otherreporting, all the full gamut
of, of normal, of quote unquotenormal chief of staff stuff.
And I was moving along, movingalong, moving along, and then.
For a variety of reasons, whichI will not go into here for a
variety of reasons.
(03:36):
A main subsidiary of ours, amain portion of our business.
Not the core, but a mainportion.
Needed new leadership.
Needed some new leadership,right quick.
Okay, so Emily, you're chief ofstaff.
You're gonna be the interimleader of this department.
You says, you says what I'mgonna do, what?
(03:59):
Oh, okay.
So I'm now in charge ofday-to-day operations.
I'm now in charge of staffing.
I'm now in charge of p and l.
I have strategic oversight.
I'm rolling up updates to theboard, all this stuff.
So like Emily, it's yours now.
Okay.
In that moment, many feelingshappening, right in the
feelings.
Okay.
(04:20):
So one feeling was, mm-hmm.
No, I am not doing that.
Mm-hmm.
Last person who should be doingthat?
No full of hands, stamp of feet.
Next emotion was As a leadershipteam member, like this makes
perfect sense.
This is, this is, this is notthe core, but this is a pretty
(04:40):
big chunk of our revenue.
This is a pretty big chunk ofour business model, our
investment thesis.
We gotta execute on this part ofthe business, like starting
right now to get where we wannabe by the end of year and
certainly in 12, 18, 24 months,we need this to be on lock.
Okay.
And part of me, the, anotherpart of me was excited.
I was like, this is a challenge,but you know what?
(05:02):
It's gonna be fun and I'm gonnabe able to get my hands in this
part of the business and learnabout it.
I've known a few people kind ofin conference calls and
different things.
I know a few folks there.
They seem pretty good.
Um, this is, this is an excitingchallenge and I like, I can do
this.
I can do this.
Let's go.
So I had a full.
Palette of feelings and emotionsgoing on in that moment, but one
(05:23):
of which was pure impostersyndrome.
Like, no, like I should not bedoing this and people are gonna
look at me.
I've got colleagues who aren'ton board with the chief of staff
role as it is, and now I'm doingthis big chunk of thing.
What the heck is she doing?
Who the heck does she think sheis?
All this kind of stuff.
I got people from within thatdepartment, from within that
(05:45):
subsidiary going like.
That makes zero sense.
we liked how things were runbefore.
We're gonna make this asdifficult as possible for anyone
trying to come in here.
So all of those things were,were coming up in that moment.
And so I, literally I got thisnews and this decision was made
on one day and then the verynext day I was diving in deep
(06:06):
and having one-on-ones withdirectors of all the various
teams within this, within thisdepartment.
And I remember, uh, one of myvery first meetings was with a
guy named Dan.
And Dan was great and probablyis great.
We got along swimmingly over thecourse of this whole thing.
It turned out to be 18 months.
That I was over, this subsidiarywas not supposed to be that long
(06:26):
at the beginning, but it turnedinto 18 months.
So it was a, it was a longerhaul than originally
anticipated, and Dan and I gotto know each other and worked
very, very closely with eachother.
He was a great guy.
He was very good at what he didand brought a lot to the table.
But at this point in time, Iknew Dan, like we had kind of
said hello in the in the hallwayand probably been in some
meetings together, but we didn'treally know each other.
(06:47):
Past that.
And, um, he was a teacher bytrades.
So he had been a teacherpreviously, which, was helpful
in this process.
And I remember we were, meetingin this conference room and we
did introductions.
Hi, I'm Emily.
Like I'm, you know, over themanage, digital marketing
department now.
you know, digital marketingwould love your help on this.
Let's partner up all this, allthis, all that kind of intro
stuff.
(07:08):
And then I sat down, I was like,I, can you give me an overview
of digital marketing now quick.
Quick preface for this.
At this point I could havewritten all I knew about digital
marketing on the back of a stampwith a pickax on the back of a
stamp with a pickax, which is anold timey saying my great aunt
(07:29):
used to say, and I've never usedit in a sentence until just now.
So basically that means I knewnothing.
I knew I had nothing on that.
And so I said, Dan, can you juststart with an overview of
digital marketing?
And he said, sure.
So he got up on the, to thewhiteboard and kind of, you
know, started to open up somemarkers and whatever, and he was
like, um, before I start.
Can you tell me what you knowabout digital marketing so I can
(07:51):
tailor this lesson to theappropriate level?
And I was like, that is afantastic question.
I was hoping you wouldn't ask.
And I was like, pretend like Iknow nothing.
Talk to me like I'm five.
And he was like, okay, noproblem.
So, um, I'm gonna start talkingand if I say something that you
don't understand.
Just say stop and I'll stop andre-explain it.
And I was like, perfect.
Great.
Sounds good.
(08:11):
So the first thing he said was,um, within digital marketing
there's two big buckets.
There's SEO and PPC.
And I was like, stop.
And he was like, what now?
And he kind of turned and I waslike, what does SEO stand for?
And I remember his face and hisarm was like up drawing at the
board and he just froze and likekind of did a half turn of his
(08:33):
face and he was trying tocontrol his facial expressions,
like.
I just met this person.
She's my new boss.
She asked a silly question, howam I gonna handle this type of
thing, and he just kind ofregrouped and came and sat down
at the table.
We're not even gonna draw on thewhiteboard yet, we're just gonna
explain what SEO means, searchengine optimization, and I asked
(08:56):
some follow up questions andgave some technical answers, and
I kind of did a recap.
And I said, so basically in reallife, when I go to Google and
I'm typing in something, SEO iswhat brings up the organic
search results.
I learned what that meant.
So there's the paid ads, thesponsored results, and then
there's the organic searchresults.
And SEO is what serves thosethings up.
(09:20):
And he was like, yes.
Basically, yes.
And I was like, okay, got it.
I'm with you so far.
So they went back up to theboard and started drawing some
different branch diagrams andall that stuff.
But that was a moment of like,oh man.
Okay.
Do we have to start with this?
I guess we do.
All right.
Stop.
I don't even know what thatacronym stands for, which is a
(09:41):
basic digital marketing acronym.
Okay.
So that was one of my very firstmeetings, right?
And then one of, all handsmeeting, but I had the entire
department on just to do anintro level set, what's
happening, why it's happening,da, da, da, da, expectations,
all that good stuff.
And, um.
And I did that intro and then Ihanded it off to Dan.
(10:02):
just kind of an overview ofwhere the different departments
were and kind of like a normal,regular, here's our KPIs that
we're looking at and here's astatus update on this thing.
Just kind of a normal all handstype of rollout.
And there was this one pointwhere it was getting kind of
tense for some reason.
I don't remember exactly why,but one of the reasons.
(10:23):
Why new leadership was needed isa culture shift of instead of
being super, um, cutthroat andsharp and da da, it was gonna be
like, Hey, like let, let's,let's be collaborative.
Let's be team players.
Let's have a little fun withwhat we're doing.
You know, we're, we're not doingheart surgery.
we're not charging a beachheadfor freedom.
(10:43):
Let's have a little levity andlittle lightness to what we're
doing.
And so I cracked a joke.
Like I, it was, it was not likea hilarious joke.
It was like a courtesy laugh.
Haha, let's break the tensionjoke.
And this one girl, uh, this oneperson like went off mute
distinctly and was, was like,um.
(11:04):
Is that all you can contributeto this meeting?
And she said it just like that.
And I was like, Hmm, okay.
Many feelings and many ways Icould respond to this young lady
type of thing.
But it was like, basically, yes,that's, that's what we're going
with right now.
Just told your horses, we'll getthere.
Don't worry.
(11:25):
Uh, but that was like literallylike being called out in front
of the entire team.
And I, and I didn't haveanything else to contribute on a
technical level at that point intime.
And so I just had to sit thereand go, okay, don't.
Don't make this worse.
Don't, don't take that bait,just kind of glaze over it and
move on.
But that was, I remember at themoment I was like, oh, this does
not feel nice.
(11:46):
Oh, that does not feel nice.
Did we need to do that?
Did we need to say that?
Like it that in front of theentire team?
Is that what you're about?
Okay.
Noted.
And moving on.
All right, so that was certainlypart of the initial process
where there were moments ofimposter syndrome for Surez.
For sure.
let me go through some thingsthat helped during this, this
(12:06):
initial process and throughoutthe entire process.
One of the things that helpedwas knowing that I brought a
whole bunch of other things tothe table.
There's the technical knowledge.
Yes, that's, that's true.
And then there's, recruiting andhiring.
Let's build out this team.
Talent management andassessment.
(12:27):
Let's see who we have.
On the roster, do we have peopleon the right seats on the bus?
Do we have underperformers thathave not been being called to
account and have accountabilitybuilt into the process?
Do we have top performers whoare hidden over here?
No one really knows about it.
Untapped potential.
Okay, let's bring you guys uphere.
Here we go.
(12:48):
Internal processes, operationalefficiencies, client
touchpoints, client management.
Hey, when we send an email to aclient, we need to make sure we
have our information straight.
We gotta make sure we're addingvalue when we ha when we call a
a client outta the blue, wegotta make sure we are quick to
the point they're busy.
We know exactly what we'reasking of them when we have a
(13:09):
set monthly call, and certainlyin-person quarterly business
reviews, we have to have thatagenda on lock.
If there's multiple team memberson that call or in that meeting,
we have to be coordinated withour efforts there.
So all of those things I broughtto bear, um, reporting and KPIs.
And are those vanity metrics ormeaningful metrics?
Are they measuring what we want?
(13:29):
Rollups to the leadership team,rollups to the board, different
stakeholder management, thingslike this.
All of that I had all of that Ibrought to the table, all of
which were part of the reason weneeded new leadership on this
team.
Um, technical knowledge was onepiece of the pie.
And there were many pieces ofthe pie.
Was it an important piece?
(13:49):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And did I have to learn that?
Yes.
I knew I had to learn that.
I had a ways to go in that area,but it wasn't the whole thing.
It wasn't the whole thing.
That's my point here.
So I knew that and I was veryconfident in those other areas.
And even though People could andwould call me out on my
technical knowledge deficienciesat that point in time.
(14:11):
Most people could pretty quicklypick up on the fact, well, she
doesn't know that, but she knowsall of this stuff.
And oh my gosh, like that makesso much sense.
Let's do it like that.
And oh, we have this internalreporting for our internal team
members.
And you know what, that's reallyhelpful if I know that going
into a client call, that helpsme.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
So all these things would comepretty quickly, uh, with those
(14:33):
other, other pieces of the pie.
Another thing that really helpedme here is.
Knowing that within thetechnical knowledge piece, I
wasn't going for world's leadingdigital marketing expert.
I didn't need to be the thoughtleader in our industry for
digital marketing.
I needed to know enough tomanage the process.
(14:56):
I had to know enough to manageto it.
Um, I, I, I did sit with folksand watch them do search ad
campaigns and watch them do, uh,SEO blogs and keyword research
and, and social media campaignsand all these things.
And I did do hands on keyboardtime, where for as painful as it
was for a few of our teammembers, I made them sit with me
(15:16):
and walk me through step by stepon how to do, you know, a pa a
paid ad campaign or like, let medo the keyword research for this
one, or like, let me do somesocial media posts.
It's like, let me do thegraphics for that.
And they're like, that is.
Terrible, but technically it'sfine.
So, okay.
Yes, Emily, keep going.
Um, but I made, I, I made peopledo that for a few rounds just so
(15:36):
I could do basic, basic stuffand have said that I had done
it.
Um, what else?
I knew that.
I needed to know enough to speakwith customers about it, even at
a high level.
Um, I could defer to expertiseexperts where I needed it, but
at a high level, internalprocessing, internal reporting.
(15:58):
If I looked at the dashboard, Ishould be able to say, Hmm, that
part looks funny.
That part doesn't.
Right.
I have a question about that,and I would know who to go to on
the team for that question.
So enough to manage it.
I'm not trying to be the worldleading expert in all these
things.
That makes a huge difference.
By the way, if you're like, Hey,I need to get it to this, not to
this, but just to this.
(16:19):
That can make a difference inhow you approach things.
And by the way, another thingthat helped here is I knew that
I was going to hand this off tosomeone else.
I wasn't the long-term leaderfor this part of the business.
I knew that I had to build it insuch a way that it could ideally
be easily handed off to someoneelse.
So that, that kind of shaped howI approached it as well.
(16:44):
And the third thing here, whichis probably the most important,
it was the most important for mein terms of combating feelings
of imposter syndrome, um, was Iknew where I was in the process.
I knew where I was in theprocess.
I had done this before.
I had been in positions where Idon't know nothing about
(17:06):
nothing.
I don't know what you're talkingabout.
I don't know nothing aboutnothing.
And then I learned it.
Then I got good at it.
And so I knew where I was in, inthat cycle, in that, uh,
process.
And it was, it doesn't take thesting out of it.
'cause you're kind of in likethe sucky part of the process
where people call you out fornot knowing stuff and you have
(17:27):
to ask silly questions and youhave to raise your hand and, um,
say stop.
And like, please help me pushthis button and what button do I
click when you're doing kind oftraining sessions with people.
But I knew where I was in theprocess.
And I had confidence even at thebeginning.
I had confidence that I couldlearn it.
'cause I had done it before andI'm a smart person and I'm a
capable person.
(17:48):
I'm a resourceful person.
I can ask good questions.
I don't mind looking silly, likeI look silly a lot.
So I'm like, that happens.
It doesn't feel great, but Idon't mind it because the larger
goal is more important to me.
So.
I had all of those things goingfor me, even at the beginning.
I will say even at thebeginning, that comes over time.
That comes over repetition.
(18:08):
That comes upon reflection.
I would say going, actually, notthat you say that, Emily.
Hold on, hold on.
I have done stuff like thatbefore.
I actually did that before lastyear, or maybe outside of work.
You know what?
I was put in a position where Ididn't know anything and I had
to learn it.
Now I take it for granted that Iknow that.
(18:29):
So kind of knowing where you arein that process and trusting
yourself and trusting yourselfthat you're capable of, of doing
this.
So that was super helpful at thevery beginning and throughout
the pro and throughout theprocess.
I would also say I would, when Iwas feeling bad about myself, I
would look back and literally belike, Emily, do you know more
(18:49):
than you knew last week?
The answer would always be yes,and it was because I was making
a conscious effort to learnthese things, but the answer
would always be yes.
Was it leaps and bounds everytime?
No.
No way.
I would get busy.
I would get pulled off withother chief of staff duties
stuff.
Other stuff would be fire drilland I'd have to attend that.
But.
(19:10):
Over time and on a, at a prettysteady clip, it was, no, I knew,
I know a little bit more than Idid last week.
Um, I remember I would, I wouldjump on these client calls just
to listen and the first roundsof those client calls, I was
like, oh, brother, I'm pickingup like every 12th word here.
You're saying words, you'remaking noises with your mouth.
I know something's happening,but I am like barely hanging on
(19:32):
here.
And then there came a pointwhen.
I pretty, I pretty much knowwhat's happening here.
Okay.
Yep.
We're saying that to the client.
We're saying that to the client.
Okay.
They're saying that back.
I don't understand all of whatthey're saying, but I understand
the gist of what they're saying.
And then our team is providingthat information and going with
that angle.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it, got it.
Um, and then it got to a pointwhere I could listen into a call
(19:56):
and it might be an escalationcall where I was brought in and,
uh, the, my team did most of thetalking, but there might be
moments where, hey.
Our team is saying the accurateand technically correct
information.
I can pick up on all of whatthey're saying now, and I can
also pick up on the nuance ofwhat the client is saying.
Mm.
Hold on.
We're not answering theirquestion.
(20:17):
They want this piece ofinformation.
So while I didn't have thetechnical answer, I knew what
type of information they wantedand I said, Hey, so and so on
the team, um, can you run, runus through this part of the
KPIs, this part of the metrics,this part of the dashboard for
Mr.
Customer over here.
And Mr.
Customer was like, yes, that'swhat I'm asking for.
(20:37):
So being able to help translatethat and know.
Who to ask on the internal teamand know what part of the kind
of QML.
Like they want this, they wantthis metric, they want this part
of the dashboard.
Talk to'em about this.
And I was able to kind of guidethe conversation at that level.
Again, not the deep technicalexpert in the KPIs necessarily,
but I wasn't able to connect thedots at that level.
(20:58):
Okay.
So that was cool to see.
I was able to track progress formyself over time, which was
important because there weretimes when I'm like, I don't
know anything.
I'm so stupid.
People are like, what the heckis she doing here?
I don't belong here.
All that kind of stuff wouldcome flooding in in certain
moments, and I have to be like,stop, hold on.
(21:19):
I know where I am in theprocess.
I've done this before.
Things are overall going betterin this department, and I know
more than I did last week.
I know a whole bunch more than Idid last month, and I will know
a whole bunch more than I do nowin a month and a week from now.
Okay, so that was helpful forme.
One other thing I'd say here isI think it goes a long way with
(21:40):
people when you don't try to besomething you're not, when you
don't try to be the expert whenyou're not.
I think that would've, oh, thatwould've been so off putting for
a lot of people, I, I would saythat most people, not all
people, but most people.
Recognized and respected.
The fact I didn't come in thereand say, I'm the world's leading
(22:02):
digital market expert.
I'm in charge here.
This is, there's a new sheriffin town type of thing.
Um, I was very confident anddirect and had a sense of
urgency around.
What we needed to do differentlywith the department overall.
And I was also very clear andtransparent and vulnerable with
(22:22):
the fact that like, I don't knowthis stuff.
I'm gonna need your help.
I'm asking for your help.
And I think for a lot of the keyplayers within that team, folks
that I wanted to developrelationships with and kind of
get.
With the program and get onboard with what was happening.
They respected that.
They saw that and they said,okay, you know, she's not, she's
(22:44):
not being fake here.
She's not trying to pretend likeshe's not something she's not.
And I think that went a long waywith people.
So I would say that too, asyou're going through imposter
syndrome, there is a time andplace for being the leader and
being the boss.
And there's a time and placefor, saying, I don't know this.
Can you help me?
And that can soften and changethe dynamic with certain
(23:06):
conversations as well.
And uh, I think if you lead withthat, a lot of people will, a
lot of people will respect bothaspects or respect.
Hey, like, she's here to runthis.
She's got a job to do.
We got a job to do.
We're a team now let's be a teamand go do this thing.
And also like, man, like she hashe doesn't know this part.
She has a lot to learn over hereand I can help her with that.
And we have a lot to learn withthis, this other stuff and she
(23:28):
can help us with that.
Let's do this together type ofthing.
So there was that kind ofdynamic and, and different
angles going on in that respectas well.
Couple other things I'll sayjust generally about imposter
syndrome is a lot of people takeimposter syndrome as a mark of
failure.
Or weakness or some sort ofdeficit, and I would flip the
(23:51):
script on that pretty hardactually.
I would come back and say,actually, imposter syndrome
feeling that way is a mark of asuccessful person.
If you're feeling impostersyndrome over and over and over
and over again, that can be themark of a successful person.
Think about it.
Successful people, topperformers, high achievers, do
(24:12):
they stand still?
Do they stay stagnant?
Are they complacent?
Heck no.
No way.
They are the ones pushing theenvelope.
They're the ones raising theirhand.
They're the ones doing so goodin their current job.
They get tapped on the shoulderfor doing other things.
They're like, oh, if we havethis new department we're
running, you gotta have this guyover here.
Like he's the top performer.
(24:32):
He's your go-to guy, bring himover here.
And inherent in all of that isdoing new and different things.
When you do something new forthe first time, there's a little
bit of this like hint ofimposter syndrome or a sliver of
it, not the whole thing, not thefull blown, um, unnecessary kind
(24:53):
of self berating or, or saying,I have, I have no merit of being
here.
You do, you're a top performer.
You're a high achiever.
You step out of your comfortzone.
You raise your hand, you pushthe envelope.
That's why you're there.
And I think that if you keepdoing that, if you keep stepping
outside of your comfort zone andthen learning something, and
then getting good at something,and now you can do it in your
(25:14):
sleep, and then you step outsideof your comfort zone again, and
then you learn something, andthen you get good at something
and then you do it again.
If you string that together overthe course of a career, you are
gonna have a successful career.
And if you string that togetherover the course of a lifetime
and like personal development,personal growth, you do that
over and over and over again.
That's called progress, myfriend, that's called, that's
(25:36):
not imposter syndrome, that'scalled progress.
Growing as a person, being thebest you can be fulfilling your
potential.
So that's where I flip thescript.
Hard on imposter syndrome is asign of, I, I'm not doing very
well.
That must mean I'm, I'm weak andI'm stupid.
Mm.
No, probably the opposite.
Probably the opposite.
Okay.
The second general thing I'd sayabout imposter syndrome is,
(25:59):
looks can be deceiving.
Appearances can be deceiving.
The way someone shows up orpresents themselves isn't
necessarily how they're feelingon the inside.
So I get a lot of, Emily will,you know, so and so on.
My team, when she gets up there,she looks so confident or, um,
this other person on my team,you know, he, he like doesn't
(26:19):
stumble when he speaks.
He knows exactly what to say.
I could never do that.
He makes it look so easy.
A few things there.
Number one, sometimes that's afunction of them doing it for
longer than you have, where it'slike, oh, remember they did
whatever they're doing for thefirst time.
At some point they had to do itfor the first time at some point
(26:40):
where it was new and scary tothem and they had to step
outside of their comfort zoneand then learn it, and then get
good and then do it again, andthey do it again, and now
they're good at it.
Now they appear confidentbecause like I've, I've, I've
done this, I've done thisbefore.
Um, you probably appearconfident tying your shoe
because you've done it beforeand it's like you don't think
about it.
I've done that before.
To someone brand new, tying yourshoe is tough.
(27:01):
You gotta do this place and thenthis lace and then loop it over.
Is it this loop?
And then do I tie it?
It's new and it's different andyou have to pay attention.
Um, other examples merging onthe highway.
Holy cow.
The first time I merged on ahighway.
I was like, death, gripping thewheel.
And I was like, I am doing mythree point turn and like blind
spot check and like this stuff.
And I was paying full attentionto that.
(27:23):
I still pay full attention, butit's a different experience.
It's like I'm gonna merge on thehighway.
I've done it thousands of timesbefore.
It's no big deal.
I probably look confident doingit, especially in comparison to
the first time I did it.
So there's, there's that part ofthe appearances and she looks so
confident and it's because sheis confident and it's because
she has.
(27:43):
15 years of experience doingthis thing that I'm watching her
do versus myself.
Okay.
The other tricky thing here issometimes people appear
confident and they are a raging,insecure mess on the inside.
People can appear lots ofdifferent ways on the aisle so
people can front, people canpresent themselves, people can
do a whole bunch of things tolook confident.
(28:05):
Doesn't mean they are, doesn'tmean they are.
In fact, some people peacock,they like flash their feathers
and kind of strut around andit's a mark of insecurity.
It was like, oh, okay, you.
Have a big car and you haveflashy this and you have flashy
that and I see what's happeninghere.
Not all the time, some peoplehave big cars, but they have to
haul stuff.
Some people dress fancy'causethey want to, but you get my
(28:26):
point.
Looks can be deceiving.
Appearances can not quite bewhat's happening here.
oh, and one more interestingpart of this is the
self-reflection piece.
So people, a lot of people callEmily, uh, people just can tell.
I, I, people just can tell I'mnot confident.
I, I, people can tell I haveimposter syndrome when I sit in
that meeting.
(28:46):
Um, probably not.
And even if they do, it's verylikely not as bad as you think.
So even if it's like, yeah, wecan kind of tell like, you know,
whatever, it's probably not asbad as you think.
And most likely they, they don'tnotice.
Um, honest to God, this is athing.
It's called the spotlight effectand you think you have a
(29:06):
spotlight on yourself and peopleare like picking apart.
Every little thing you do orsay, or shudder or hand motion
or tremor or whatever, you'relike, oh my gosh, everyone can
see that.
No one, no one cares.
No one is paying attention,honestly.
So that's a thing too, likeappearances and looks and how
you show up.
Your sense of that, yourexperience of that can be very
(29:28):
different from the externalexperience of that for other
people.
So just know that as well.
All right, so that was my chiefof staff imposter syndrome story
with, um, a few other notes andanecdotes and hopefully words of
encouragement for you.
But, uh, this is a real thingthat happens.
I know it is.
I, I personally, you just heardabout it.
I personally know about it and Ihear about it all the time.
(29:49):
So it's a real thing thathappens and I would just
encourage folks to, when thishappens, know what it is and
know what it is not.
So know what it is, which is,hey, I'm making progress.
I'm growing as a professionaland as a, as a person.
I'm making progress as I learnto move through these phases.
(30:09):
And this part of the process,I'm making progress, It might be
two steps forwards, one stepback.
But if you're always makingprogress and you never give up,
and you keep busting throughyour comfort zone and making a
new comfort zone, uh.
Holy cow.
That's a lot of progress, andand you keep going and you bust
(30:31):
through that, and you movethrough that and step through
that, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Over time you keep doing thatand then, whoops, I'm awesome.
Sorry.
Couldn't help it.
I just, that's what I do.
So I would know where you are inthe process, know what this is
and know what it is not, Sohopefully that has been helpful
and uh, I will catch you nextweek on leveraging leadership.
if you are feeling imposter
syndrome as chief of staffbecause you don't have the deep
technical knowledge to run thisarea of the business.
Then this episode is for you,and one of the first things I'll
say is, you are not alone.
I speak with chiefs of staff andthis is a very common tale,
especially early in someone'stenure, but it can also happen
later on when, Hey, Emily, I wasgoing finance as chief of staff.
(00:48):
I had rhythm of business.
I was doing principlemanagement.
I was in my stride, all thesethings, and bam, I got put in
charge of this and oh.
I know nothing about that.
I know nothing.
They want me to run that.
I have people looking at melike, what the heck is she doing
in charge of that?
How dare he put that guy incharge of that?
He doesn't know nothing aboutwhat we do.
(01:08):
He can't manage us, type ofthing.
And then I get people coming tobe going I imposter syndrome.
Okay, so you're not alone.
I have spoken about this inprevious solo episodes, and I
have had some guests speak aboutthis topic as well.
In brief, very short recap ofwhat I've said in previous solo
episodes.
Not being the subject matterexpert can be an advantage.
(01:32):
Reason being chief of staff canask fresh questions, can bring a
fresh perspective, and sometimesthe subject matter experts know
too much for their own good andbeing able to translate or
communicate out what the subjectmatter experts are saying to
non-technical audiences anddifferent stakeholders.
Is critically important.
(01:53):
That translation, that buffercan be the make or break thing
for that team or that company.
So it can be a huge advantage inthat sense.
Okay.
That's a brief recap.
You can look at previousepisodes for more.
In this episode, what I want todo is, um, go through a little
story from when I was chief ofstaff, and the reason this is
coming up is because when I'mspeaking to people about
(02:14):
imposter syndrome in their chiefof staff roles, sometimes this
story will come up and I'llbring this up and I'll share
this.
And it tends to help.
And people go, oh, okay.
Well, when you say it like that,then it's not so bad.
And you can see their kind ofshoulders just drop and relax
and the stress just streams offthem.
(02:34):
I've done this over and over andover again now, and this is the
general response.
So I was like, Hey, let me sharethis an episode in case it is
helpful for you.
So here we go.
So, when I was chief of staff, Iwas the first.
Probably six to nine months.
Were solely dedicated on thecore business we had, and there
(02:55):
was a lot of stuff going on.
A lot of, a lot of stuff.
You know what I'm talking about.
You get into the chief of staffrole, you have like a hundred
different things you're doing atonce.
It was like big chunky stufflike leadership team and makeup
of leadership team and roles andpersonalities and stuff like
that.
Overhauling or revamping theaccount management team.
(03:16):
And that was a big piece of ourexisting business and retaining
existing clients, all thatstuff.
Other internal processes, otherreporting, all the full gamut
of, of normal, of quote unquotenormal chief of staff stuff.
And I was moving along, movingalong, moving along, and then.
For a variety of reasons, whichI will not go into here for a
variety of reasons.
(03:36):
A main subsidiary of ours, amain portion of our business.
Not the core, but a mainportion.
Needed new leadership.
Needed some new leadership,right quick.
Okay, so Emily, you're chief ofstaff.
You're gonna be the interimleader of this department.
You says, you says what I'mgonna do, what?
(03:59):
Oh, okay.
So I'm now in charge ofday-to-day operations.
I'm now in charge of staffing.
I'm now in charge of p and l.
I have strategic oversight.
I'm rolling up updates to theboard, all this stuff.
So like Emily, it's yours now.
Okay.
In that moment, many feelingshappening, right in the
feelings.
Okay.
(04:20):
So one feeling was, mm-hmm.
No, I am not doing that.
Mm-hmm.
Last person who should be doingthat?
No full of hands, stamp of feet.
Next emotion was As a leadershipteam member, like this makes
perfect sense.
This is, this is, this is notthe core, but this is a pretty
(04:40):
big chunk of our revenue.
This is a pretty big chunk ofour business model, our
investment thesis.
We gotta execute on this part ofthe business, like starting
right now to get where we wannabe by the end of year and
certainly in 12, 18, 24 months,we need this to be on lock.
Okay.
And part of me, the, anotherpart of me was excited.
I was like, this is a challenge,but you know what?
(05:02):
It's gonna be fun and I'm gonnabe able to get my hands in this
part of the business and learnabout it.
I've known a few people kind ofin conference calls and
different things.
I know a few folks there.
They seem pretty good.
Um, this is, this is an excitingchallenge and I like, I can do
this.
I can do this.
Let's go.
So I had a full.
Palette of feelings and emotionsgoing on in that moment, but one
(05:23):
of which was pure impostersyndrome.
Like, no, like I should not bedoing this and people are gonna
look at me.
I've got colleagues who aren'ton board with the chief of staff
role as it is, and now I'm doingthis big chunk of thing.
What the heck is she doing?
Who the heck does she think sheis?
All this kind of stuff.
I got people from within thatdepartment, from within that
(05:45):
subsidiary going like.
That makes zero sense.
we liked how things were runbefore.
We're gonna make this asdifficult as possible for anyone
trying to come in here.
So all of those things were,were coming up in that moment.
And so I, literally I got thisnews and this decision was made
on one day and then the verynext day I was diving in deep
(06:06):
and having one-on-ones withdirectors of all the various
teams within this, within thisdepartment.
And I remember, uh, one of myvery first meetings was with a
guy named Dan.
And Dan was great and probablyis great.
We got along swimmingly over thecourse of this whole thing.
It turned out to be 18 months.
That I was over, this subsidiarywas not supposed to be that long
(06:26):
at the beginning, but it turnedinto 18 months.
So it was a, it was a longerhaul than originally
anticipated, and Dan and I gotto know each other and worked
very, very closely with eachother.
He was a great guy.
He was very good at what he didand brought a lot to the table.
But at this point in time, Iknew Dan, like we had kind of
said hello in the in the hallwayand probably been in some
meetings together, but we didn'treally know each other.
(06:47):
Past that.
And, um, he was a teacher bytrades.
So he had been a teacherpreviously, which, was helpful
in this process.
And I remember we were, meetingin this conference room and we
did introductions.
Hi, I'm Emily.
Like I'm, you know, over themanage, digital marketing
department now.
you know, digital marketingwould love your help on this.
Let's partner up all this, allthis, all that kind of intro
stuff.
(07:08):
And then I sat down, I was like,I, can you give me an overview
of digital marketing now quick.
Quick preface for this.
At this point I could havewritten all I knew about digital
marketing on the back of a stampwith a pickax on the back of a
stamp with a pickax, which is anold timey saying my great aunt
(07:29):
used to say, and I've never usedit in a sentence until just now.
So basically that means I knewnothing.
I knew I had nothing on that.
And so I said, Dan, can you juststart with an overview of
digital marketing?
And he said, sure.
So he got up on the, to thewhiteboard and kind of, you
know, started to open up somemarkers and whatever, and he was
like, um, before I start.
Can you tell me what you knowabout digital marketing so I can
(07:51):
tailor this lesson to theappropriate level?
And I was like, that is afantastic question.
I was hoping you wouldn't ask.
And I was like, pretend like Iknow nothing.
Talk to me like I'm five.
And he was like, okay, noproblem.
So, um, I'm gonna start talkingand if I say something that you
don't understand.
Just say stop and I'll stop andre-explain it.
And I was like, perfect.
Great.
Sounds good.
(08:11):
So the first thing he said was,um, within digital marketing
there's two big buckets.
There's SEO and PPC.
And I was like, stop.
And he was like, what now?
And he kind of turned and I waslike, what does SEO stand for?
And I remember his face and hisarm was like up drawing at the
board and he just froze and likekind of did a half turn of his
(08:33):
face and he was trying tocontrol his facial expressions,
like.
I just met this person.
She's my new boss.
She asked a silly question, howam I gonna handle this type of
thing, and he just kind ofregrouped and came and sat down
at the table.
We're not even gonna draw on thewhiteboard yet, we're just gonna
explain what SEO means, searchengine optimization, and I asked
(08:56):
some follow up questions andgave some technical answers, and
I kind of did a recap.
And I said, so basically in reallife, when I go to Google and
I'm typing in something, SEO iswhat brings up the organic
search results.
I learned what that meant.
So there's the paid ads, thesponsored results, and then
there's the organic searchresults.
And SEO is what serves thosethings up.
(09:20):
And he was like, yes.
Basically, yes.
And I was like, okay, got it.
I'm with you so far.
So they went back up to theboard and started drawing some
different branch diagrams andall that stuff.
But that was a moment of like,oh man.
Okay.
Do we have to start with this?
I guess we do.
All right.
Stop.
I don't even know what thatacronym stands for, which is a
(09:41):
basic digital marketing acronym.
Okay.
So that was one of my very firstmeetings, right?
And then one of, all handsmeeting, but I had the entire
department on just to do anintro level set, what's
happening, why it's happening,da, da, da, da, expectations,
all that good stuff.
And, um.
And I did that intro and then Ihanded it off to Dan.
(10:02):
just kind of an overview ofwhere the different departments
were and kind of like a normal,regular, here's our KPIs that
we're looking at and here's astatus update on this thing.
Just kind of a normal all handstype of rollout.
And there was this one pointwhere it was getting kind of
tense for some reason.
I don't remember exactly why,but one of the reasons.
(10:23):
Why new leadership was needed isa culture shift of instead of
being super, um, cutthroat andsharp and da da, it was gonna be
like, Hey, like let, let's,let's be collaborative.
Let's be team players.
Let's have a little fun withwhat we're doing.
You know, we're, we're not doingheart surgery.
we're not charging a beachheadfor freedom.
(10:43):
Let's have a little levity andlittle lightness to what we're
doing.
And so I cracked a joke.
Like I, it was, it was not likea hilarious joke.
It was like a courtesy laugh.
Haha, let's break the tensionjoke.
And this one girl, uh, this oneperson like went off mute
distinctly and was, was like,um.
(11:04):
Is that all you can contributeto this meeting?
And she said it just like that.
And I was like, Hmm, okay.
Many feelings and many ways Icould respond to this young lady
type of thing.
But it was like, basically, yes,that's, that's what we're going
with right now.
Just told your horses, we'll getthere.
Don't worry.
(11:25):
Uh, but that was like literallylike being called out in front
of the entire team.
And I, and I didn't haveanything else to contribute on a
technical level at that point intime.
And so I just had to sit thereand go, okay, don't.
Don't make this worse.
Don't, don't take that bait,just kind of glaze over it and
move on.
But that was, I remember at themoment I was like, oh, this does
not feel nice.
(11:46):
Oh, that does not feel nice.
Did we need to do that?
Did we need to say that?
Like it that in front of theentire team?
Is that what you're about?
Okay.
Noted.
And moving on.
All right, so that was certainlypart of the initial process
where there were moments ofimposter syndrome for Surez.
For sure.
let me go through some thingsthat helped during this, this
(12:06):
initial process and throughoutthe entire process.
One of the things that helpedwas knowing that I brought a
whole bunch of other things tothe table.
There's the technical knowledge.
Yes, that's, that's true.
And then there's, recruiting andhiring.
Let's build out this team.
Talent management andassessment.
(12:27):
Let's see who we have.
On the roster, do we have peopleon the right seats on the bus?
Do we have underperformers thathave not been being called to
account and have accountabilitybuilt into the process?
Do we have top performers whoare hidden over here?
No one really knows about it.
Untapped potential.
Okay, let's bring you guys uphere.
Here we go.
(12:48):
Internal processes, operationalefficiencies, client
touchpoints, client management.
Hey, when we send an email to aclient, we need to make sure we
have our information straight.
We gotta make sure we're addingvalue when we ha when we call a
a client outta the blue, wegotta make sure we are quick to
the point they're busy.
We know exactly what we'reasking of them when we have a
(13:09):
set monthly call, and certainlyin-person quarterly business
reviews, we have to have thatagenda on lock.
If there's multiple team memberson that call or in that meeting,
we have to be coordinated withour efforts there.
So all of those things I broughtto bear, um, reporting and KPIs.
And are those vanity metrics ormeaningful metrics?
Are they measuring what we want?
(13:29):
Rollups to the leadership team,rollups to the board, different
stakeholder management, thingslike this.
All of that I had all of that Ibrought to the table, all of
which were part of the reason weneeded new leadership on this
team.
Um, technical knowledge was onepiece of the pie.
And there were many pieces ofthe pie.
Was it an important piece?
(13:49):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And did I have to learn that?
Yes.
I knew I had to learn that.
I had a ways to go in that area,but it wasn't the whole thing.
It wasn't the whole thing.
That's my point here.
So I knew that and I was veryconfident in those other areas.
And even though People could andwould call me out on my
technical knowledge deficienciesat that point in time.
(14:11):
Most people could pretty quicklypick up on the fact, well, she
doesn't know that, but she knowsall of this stuff.
And oh my gosh, like that makesso much sense.
Let's do it like that.
And oh, we have this internalreporting for our internal team
members.
And you know what, that's reallyhelpful if I know that going
into a client call, that helpsme.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
So all these things would comepretty quickly, uh, with those
(14:33):
other, other pieces of the pie.
Another thing that really helpedme here is.
Knowing that within thetechnical knowledge piece, I
wasn't going for world's leadingdigital marketing expert.
I didn't need to be the thoughtleader in our industry for
digital marketing.
I needed to know enough tomanage the process.
(14:56):
I had to know enough to manageto it.
Um, I, I, I did sit with folksand watch them do search ad
campaigns and watch them do, uh,SEO blogs and keyword research
and, and social media campaignsand all these things.
And I did do hands on keyboardtime, where for as painful as it
was for a few of our teammembers, I made them sit with me
(15:16):
and walk me through step by stepon how to do, you know, a pa a
paid ad campaign or like, let medo the keyword research for this
one, or like, let me do somesocial media posts.
It's like, let me do thegraphics for that.
And they're like, that is.
Terrible, but technically it'sfine.
So, okay.
Yes, Emily, keep going.
Um, but I made, I, I made peopledo that for a few rounds just so
(15:36):
I could do basic, basic stuffand have said that I had done
it.
Um, what else?
I knew that.
I needed to know enough to speakwith customers about it, even at
a high level.
Um, I could defer to expertiseexperts where I needed it, but
at a high level, internalprocessing, internal reporting.
(15:58):
If I looked at the dashboard, Ishould be able to say, Hmm, that
part looks funny.
That part doesn't.
Right.
I have a question about that,and I would know who to go to on
the team for that question.
So enough to manage it.
I'm not trying to be the worldleading expert in all these
things.
That makes a huge difference.
By the way, if you're like, Hey,I need to get it to this, not to
this, but just to this.
(16:19):
That can make a difference inhow you approach things.
And by the way, another thingthat helped here is I knew that
I was going to hand this off tosomeone else.
I wasn't the long-term leaderfor this part of the business.
I knew that I had to build it insuch a way that it could ideally
be easily handed off to someoneelse.
So that, that kind of shaped howI approached it as well.
(16:44):
And the third thing here, whichis probably the most important,
it was the most important for mein terms of combating feelings
of imposter syndrome, um, was Iknew where I was in the process.
I knew where I was in theprocess.
I had done this before.
I had been in positions where Idon't know nothing about
(17:06):
nothing.
I don't know what you're talkingabout.
I don't know nothing aboutnothing.
And then I learned it.
Then I got good at it.
And so I knew where I was in, inthat cycle, in that, uh,
process.
And it was, it doesn't take thesting out of it.
'cause you're kind of in likethe sucky part of the process
where people call you out fornot knowing stuff and you have
(17:27):
to ask silly questions and youhave to raise your hand and, um,
say stop.
And like, please help me pushthis button and what button do I
click when you're doing kind oftraining sessions with people.
But I knew where I was in theprocess.
And I had confidence even at thebeginning.
I had confidence that I couldlearn it.
'cause I had done it before andI'm a smart person and I'm a
capable person.
(17:48):
I'm a resourceful person.
I can ask good questions.
I don't mind looking silly, likeI look silly a lot.
So I'm like, that happens.
It doesn't feel great, but Idon't mind it because the larger
goal is more important to me.
So.
I had all of those things goingfor me, even at the beginning.
I will say even at thebeginning, that comes over time.
That comes over repetition.
(18:08):
That comes upon reflection.
I would say going, actually, notthat you say that, Emily.
Hold on, hold on.
I have done stuff like thatbefore.
I actually did that before lastyear, or maybe outside of work.
You know what?
I was put in a position where Ididn't know anything and I had
to learn it.
Now I take it for granted that Iknow that.
(18:29):
So kind of knowing where you arein that process and trusting
yourself and trusting yourselfthat you're capable of, of doing
this.
So that was super helpful at thevery beginning and throughout
the pro and throughout theprocess.
I would also say I would, when Iwas feeling bad about myself, I
would look back and literally belike, Emily, do you know more
(18:49):
than you knew last week?
The answer would always be yes,and it was because I was making
a conscious effort to learnthese things, but the answer
would always be yes.
Was it leaps and bounds everytime?
No.
No way.
I would get busy.
I would get pulled off withother chief of staff duties
stuff.
Other stuff would be fire drilland I'd have to attend that.
But.
(19:10):
Over time and on a, at a prettysteady clip, it was, no, I knew,
I know a little bit more than Idid last week.
Um, I remember I would, I wouldjump on these client calls just
to listen and the first roundsof those client calls, I was
like, oh, brother, I'm pickingup like every 12th word here.
You're saying words, you'remaking noises with your mouth.
I know something's happening,but I am like barely hanging on
(19:32):
here.
And then there came a pointwhen.
I pretty, I pretty much knowwhat's happening here.
Okay.
Yep.
We're saying that to the client.
We're saying that to the client.
Okay.
They're saying that back.
I don't understand all of whatthey're saying, but I understand
the gist of what they're saying.
And then our team is providingthat information and going with
that angle.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it, got it.
Um, and then it got to a pointwhere I could listen into a call
(19:56):
and it might be an escalationcall where I was brought in and,
uh, the, my team did most of thetalking, but there might be
moments where, hey.
Our team is saying the accurateand technically correct
information.
I can pick up on all of whatthey're saying now, and I can
also pick up on the nuance ofwhat the client is saying.
Mm.
Hold on.
We're not answering theirquestion.
(20:17):
They want this piece ofinformation.
So while I didn't have thetechnical answer, I knew what
type of information they wantedand I said, Hey, so and so on
the team, um, can you run, runus through this part of the
KPIs, this part of the metrics,this part of the dashboard for
Mr.
Customer over here.
And Mr.
Customer was like, yes, that'swhat I'm asking for.
(20:37):
So being able to help translatethat and know.
Who to ask on the internal teamand know what part of the kind
of QML.
Like they want this, they wantthis metric, they want this part
of the dashboard.
Talk to'em about this.
And I was able to kind of guidethe conversation at that level.
Again, not the deep technicalexpert in the KPIs necessarily,
but I wasn't able to connect thedots at that level.
(20:58):
Okay.
So that was cool to see.
I was able to track progress formyself over time, which was
important because there weretimes when I'm like, I don't
know anything.
I'm so stupid.
People are like, what the heckis she doing here?
I don't belong here.
All that kind of stuff wouldcome flooding in in certain
moments, and I have to be like,stop, hold on.
(21:19):
I know where I am in theprocess.
I've done this before.
Things are overall going betterin this department, and I know
more than I did last week.
I know a whole bunch more than Idid last month, and I will know
a whole bunch more than I do nowin a month and a week from now.
Okay, so that was helpful forme.
One other thing I'd say here isI think it goes a long way with
(21:40):
people when you don't try to besomething you're not, when you
don't try to be the expert whenyou're not.
I think that would've, oh, thatwould've been so off putting for
a lot of people, I, I would saythat most people, not all
people, but most people.
Recognized and respected.
The fact I didn't come in thereand say, I'm the world's leading
(22:02):
digital market expert.
I'm in charge here.
This is, there's a new sheriffin town type of thing.
Um, I was very confident anddirect and had a sense of
urgency around.
What we needed to do differentlywith the department overall.
And I was also very clear andtransparent and vulnerable with
(22:22):
the fact that like, I don't knowthis stuff.
I'm gonna need your help.
I'm asking for your help.
And I think for a lot of the keyplayers within that team, folks
that I wanted to developrelationships with and kind of
get.
With the program and get onboard with what was happening.
They respected that.
They saw that and they said,okay, you know, she's not, she's
(22:44):
not being fake here.
She's not trying to pretend likeshe's not something she's not.
And I think that went a long waywith people.
So I would say that too, asyou're going through imposter
syndrome, there is a time andplace for being the leader and
being the boss.
And there's a time and placefor, saying, I don't know this.
Can you help me?
And that can soften and changethe dynamic with certain
(23:06):
conversations as well.
And uh, I think if you lead withthat, a lot of people will, a
lot of people will respect bothaspects or respect.
Hey, like, she's here to runthis.
She's got a job to do.
We got a job to do.
We're a team now let's be a teamand go do this thing.
And also like, man, like she hashe doesn't know this part.
She has a lot to learn over hereand I can help her with that.
And we have a lot to learn withthis, this other stuff and she
(23:28):
can help us with that.
Let's do this together type ofthing.
So there was that kind ofdynamic and, and different
angles going on in that respectas well.
Couple other things I'll sayjust generally about imposter
syndrome is a lot of people takeimposter syndrome as a mark of
failure.
Or weakness or some sort ofdeficit, and I would flip the
(23:51):
script on that pretty hardactually.
I would come back and say,actually, imposter syndrome
feeling that way is a mark of asuccessful person.
If you're feeling impostersyndrome over and over and over
and over again, that can be themark of a successful person.
Think about it.
Successful people, topperformers, high achievers, do
(24:12):
they stand still?
Do they stay stagnant?
Are they complacent?
Heck no.
No way.
They are the ones pushing theenvelope.
They're the ones raising theirhand.
They're the ones doing so goodin their current job.
They get tapped on the shoulderfor doing other things.
They're like, oh, if we havethis new department we're
running, you gotta have this guyover here.
Like he's the top performer.
(24:32):
He's your go-to guy, bring himover here.
And inherent in all of that isdoing new and different things.
When you do something new forthe first time, there's a little
bit of this like hint ofimposter syndrome or a sliver of
it, not the whole thing, not thefull blown, um, unnecessary kind
(24:53):
of self berating or, or saying,I have, I have no merit of being
here.
You do, you're a top performer.
You're a high achiever.
You step out of your comfortzone.
You raise your hand, you pushthe envelope.
That's why you're there.
And I think that if you keepdoing that, if you keep stepping
outside of your comfort zone andthen learning something, and
then getting good at something,and now you can do it in your
(25:14):
sleep, and then you step outsideof your comfort zone again, and
then you learn something, andthen you get good at something
and then you do it again.
If you string that together overthe course of a career, you are
gonna have a successful career.
And if you string that togetherover the course of a lifetime
and like personal development,personal growth, you do that
over and over and over again.
That's called progress, myfriend, that's called, that's
(25:36):
not imposter syndrome, that'scalled progress.
Growing as a person, being thebest you can be fulfilling your
potential.
So that's where I flip thescript.
Hard on imposter syndrome is asign of, I, I'm not doing very
well.
That must mean I'm, I'm weak andI'm stupid.
Mm.
No, probably the opposite.
Probably the opposite.
Okay.
The second general thing I'd sayabout imposter syndrome is,
(25:59):
looks can be deceiving.
Appearances can be deceiving.
The way someone shows up orpresents themselves isn't
necessarily how they're feelingon the inside.
So I get a lot of, Emily will,you know, so and so on.
My team, when she gets up there,she looks so confident or, um,
this other person on my team,you know, he, he like doesn't
(26:19):
stumble when he speaks.
He knows exactly what to say.
I could never do that.
He makes it look so easy.
A few things there.
Number one, sometimes that's afunction of them doing it for
longer than you have, where it'slike, oh, remember they did
whatever they're doing for thefirst time.
At some point they had to do itfor the first time at some point
(26:40):
where it was new and scary tothem and they had to step
outside of their comfort zoneand then learn it, and then get
good and then do it again, andthey do it again, and now
they're good at it.
Now they appear confidentbecause like I've, I've, I've
done this, I've done thisbefore.
Um, you probably appearconfident tying your shoe
because you've done it beforeand it's like you don't think
about it.
I've done that before.
To someone brand new, tying yourshoe is tough.
(27:01):
You gotta do this place and thenthis lace and then loop it over.
Is it this loop?
And then do I tie it?
It's new and it's different andyou have to pay attention.
Um, other examples merging onthe highway.
Holy cow.
The first time I merged on ahighway.
I was like, death, gripping thewheel.
And I was like, I am doing mythree point turn and like blind
spot check and like this stuff.
And I was paying full attentionto that.
(27:23):
I still pay full attention, butit's a different experience.
It's like I'm gonna merge on thehighway.
I've done it thousands of timesbefore.
It's no big deal.
I probably look confident doingit, especially in comparison to
the first time I did it.
So there's, there's that part ofthe appearances and she looks so
confident and it's because sheis confident and it's because
she has.
(27:43):
15 years of experience doingthis thing that I'm watching her
do versus myself.
Okay.
The other tricky thing here issometimes people appear
confident and they are a raging,insecure mess on the inside.
People can appear lots ofdifferent ways on the aisle so
people can front, people canpresent themselves, people can
do a whole bunch of things tolook confident.
(28:05):
Doesn't mean they are, doesn'tmean they are.
In fact, some people peacock,they like flash their feathers
and kind of strut around andit's a mark of insecurity.
It was like, oh, okay, you.
Have a big car and you haveflashy this and you have flashy
that and I see what's happeninghere.
Not all the time, some peoplehave big cars, but they have to
haul stuff.
Some people dress fancy'causethey want to, but you get my
(28:26):
point.
Looks can be deceiving.
Appearances can not quite bewhat's happening here.
oh, and one more interestingpart of this is the
self-reflection piece.
So people, a lot of people callEmily, uh, people just can tell.
I, I, people just can tell I'mnot confident.
I, I, people can tell I haveimposter syndrome when I sit in
that meeting.
(28:46):
Um, probably not.
And even if they do, it's verylikely not as bad as you think.
So even if it's like, yeah, wecan kind of tell like, you know,
whatever, it's probably not asbad as you think.
And most likely they, they don'tnotice.
Um, honest to God, this is athing.
It's called the spotlight effectand you think you have a
(29:06):
spotlight on yourself and peopleare like picking apart.
Every little thing you do orsay, or shudder or hand motion
or tremor or whatever, you'relike, oh my gosh, everyone can
see that.
No one, no one cares.
No one is paying attention,honestly.
So that's a thing too, likeappearances and looks and how
you show up.
Your sense of that, yourexperience of that can be very
(29:28):
different from the externalexperience of that for other
people.
So just know that as well.
All right, so that was my chiefof staff imposter syndrome story
with, um, a few other notes andanecdotes and hopefully words of
encouragement for you.
But, uh, this is a real thingthat happens.
I know it is.
I, I personally, you just heardabout it.
I personally know about it and Ihear about it all the time.
(29:49):
So it's a real thing thathappens and I would just
encourage folks to, when thishappens, know what it is and
know what it is not.
So know what it is, which is,hey, I'm making progress.
I'm growing as a professionaland as a, as a person.
I'm making progress as I learnto move through these phases.
(30:09):
And this part of the process,I'm making progress, It might be
two steps forwards, one stepback.
But if you're always makingprogress and you never give up,
and you keep busting throughyour comfort zone and making a
new comfort zone, uh.
Holy cow.
That's a lot of progress, andand you keep going and you bust
(30:31):
through that, and you movethrough that and step through
that, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Over time you keep doing thatand then, whoops, I'm awesome.
Sorry.
Couldn't help it.
I just, that's what I do.
So I would know where you are inthe process, know what this is
and know what it is not, Sohopefully that has been helpful
and uh, I will catch you nextweek on leveraging leadership.
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