December 17, 2025 • 53 mins
For more than 33 years, Samuel “Baby Sam” Edmondson lived inside a conviction the courts would later acknowledge was broken.
In 2022, a Brooklyn Supreme Court judge vacated that conviction after finding unreliable witnesses, suppressed evidence, and investigative misconduct tied to NYPD Detective Louis Scarcella. Baby Sam walked free and began rebuilding his life.
Three years later, the State of New York reinstated part of that same conviction — without a new trial — sending him back to prison.
In this exclusive interview, Baby Sam speaks in his own words about:
- Having his conviction vacated after three decades
- What the court acknowledged about his case
- Living free, then being ordered back into custody
- The role of police misconduct and prosecutorial decisions
- Why he believes the system is still refusing full accountability
This conversation is not about mythology or headlines.
It is about due process, state power, and what happens when the justice system reverses its own admission of error.
👉🏾 Read the full reporting:
The Gutter Report: Vacated, Reinstated — How New York Took Back a Man’s Freedom
👉🏾 Take action:
Sign the petition calling for accountability and transparency
Not for clicks — for clarity.
— Elliott Carterr, LFTG Radio
📱 TikTok: @elliott_carterr
📺 YouTube: @lftgradio
🌐 Website: LFTGRadio.com
Subscribe to our YouTube @LFTGRadio and check out the website LFTGRadio.com for live updates!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Good morning, Godspeed.
It's Elliot Carter reportinglive from the gutter.
And today we're having aconversation the system never
wanted the public to hear.
For over 33 years, Samuel BabySam Edison sat in a prison cell
on a conviction built on lies,suppressed evidence, fabricated
police work, and witnesses wholater admitted they were they
(00:20):
weren't telling the truth.
In 2022, a Brooklyn judgevacated that conviction.
The system admitted what he'dbeen saying for decades.
The trial wasn't fair.
For three years, Baby Sam livedas a free man again, rebuilding
his life, reconnecting with hisfamily, and becoming a part of a
community that welcomed himhome.
(00:41):
But in 2025, the state of NewYork reached back and took that
freedom away.
Today's interview is not aboutguilt, innocence, or street
legends.
It's about truth, due process,and what happens when the
justice system refuses tocorrect its own mistakes.
This is Samuel Edmondson's storyin his own words.
(01:02):
Let's begin.
Baby Sam, where are you callingfrom right now?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
I'm calling from Green Haven Correctional
Facility.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
And how are the conditions in there?
What's going on with you inthere?
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Well, everything is okay with me uh under the
circumstances of being myconviction being reinstated.
Uh it's it's not the same as asI left it though, three years
ago, uh prison changeddramatically.
SPEAKER_01 (01:37):
How so?
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Um just with the uh the guards, the inmates, um
things that that been happeningin the system or why I was gone,
it's it it just changed and itgot and it got worse.
It just it just got worse.
You know, it's it's like the thelack of staff, you know, it's
(02:02):
not enough staff, and uh thecaliber of prisoners uh are not
the same, you know.
Uh when I when I when I firststarted m uh my did out.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, no, I understand completely.
Let's get into your case and theand the origins, the man before
the myth.
Before the newspapers and beforethe courtroom, who was Samuel
Edmondson growing up inBrownsville?
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Okay.
Okay, I want to say this, right?
First of all, uh I was born SamEdmondson, but the media, the
media needed a villain, so theychanged my name to Samuel, baby
Sam Edmondson.
So it could sound like moresinister, like Vincent the Chin
(02:55):
or like uh Sam the Brook of Iknow, you know, but my mother
and father uh never married andthey were from the South and
when when you're not married inin in the south and you name
after your father, you're eitherbaby Sam or little Sam.
You're not a junior.
So I was named after my father,so I was considered baby Sam.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
What did the late eighties feellike from inside the community,
not through the headlines?
unknown (03:31):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Okay, let me see.
Let me try to give you uh painta picture for you.
Okay.
Uh okay.
It felt like from from inside itlooked like Ukraine.
Except Russia wasn't droppingbombs on the US.
The US was dropping bombs on itsown citizens.
(03:56):
You know, like cracking like abomb, you know, um jobs
disappeared.
Um police showed up um not tohelp but to arrest and NYC, New
(04:18):
York was like, you know, it waslike a battlefield, you know.
Um uh where where kids growingup, you know, had to to adapt
and survive.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Yeah, definitely.
When the media labeled you akingpin, what parts of your real
story did they leave out?
SPEAKER_00 (04:41):
Okay.
Initially, I had tried to enlistin the military twice.
Once in the Marines and later inthe army, but to no avail.
Um, I later became a student atuh the University of Peru
College.
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
Okay, nice.
And what did you study there?
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Business administration.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
And how did that end for you?
How did you end up, you know,changing your path?
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
What happened was um I lost my brother in eighty six
and that was like my s that wasmy older brother, and that was
my second brother in less than ayear.
And I I I r I remember and I tryto keep it keep it straight even
after his death.
I I I still continue to go toschool, but you know, I I I
(05:38):
found myself, you know, um uh uhstruggling with that.
You know, struggling with thefact that I lost two brothers,
struggling with with the factthat we still in the project,
and I didn't want to loseanother brother.
So, you know, I wanted I wantedto remove my my my my mom from
from from the project.
(05:58):
So I remember one day um comingback from school, taking my
books and throwing them on atrain track just before the
train comes.
So I knew that once I did thatbecause those were used books
that I bought.
So I knew that once I didn'thave those books no more, I knew
I wasn't coming back.
So I dropped out of college.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Yeah.
I understand the the methodologybehind that.
When you first heard the chargesagainst you back in nineteen
eighty-eight through nineteenninety, did the state story
match the reality that youlived?
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
No, absolutely not.
I mean, cause that was the firsttime I ever heard of enterprise
corruption, you know, and I wasat my trial, and then they had a
chart at my trial with titleslike Lieutenant Overseer,
Controller, Commander in Chief,Chief of Security, and so forth.
(06:58):
Names that I I never even heardbefore, uh uh uh not alone heard
anyone else identify their selfas that.
So uh no, it it it it it didn't.
It c it caught it it it caughtme totally of God.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
Yeah, they just created their own structure.
SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
How did it feel watching witnesses take the
stand knowing their storiesdidn't match the truth?
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Wow.
That that was that was uh well Ifelt helpless.
You know, like like I waswatching uh uh a bad episode of
Law and Order.
Except uh the people that tookthe oath to uphold the law was
now breaking the law.
So I I had to I had to sit thereand listen to these witnesses.
(07:53):
Some witnesses I never even metbefore, you know, tell these
stories and these lies that theuh the the prosecution police
set them.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Yeah, that's that's a common theme that I'm hearing
on this podcast and in lawenforcement and corruption, you
know, just them coercingwitnesses and you know getting
them to tell lies on the standjust for another conviction.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
What do you remember about Detective Louis
Scarsella's place in your caseor the atmosphere surrounding
him?
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
What do I remember about Scarsella?
Well what I remember aboutScarsella was uh uh a very
arrogant person.
Uh uh self-centered, um even notsadistic, you know.
(08:58):
Um that was my first impressionof him, you know, when when when
when so when I met him, youknow.
And um so it's a lot that Ididn't know about him until
later on it started coming outlike years later.
(09:20):
But when I did hear it, itdidn't surprise me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Yeah.
Did you have much interactionwith him?
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah.
He uh um he he arrested me.
He was my arresting he was he hehe was my arresting officer, you
know.
Uh which is which is funnybecause he said that he didn't
have anything to do with my caseand when asked did he arrest me,
(09:53):
he said he don't recall and hesaid black and white that he
arrested me.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah, of course.
Did you feel like yourconviction was decided before
your trial even began?
And why?
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah, uh I think I think I was uh I think I was I
was I was convicted long beforeI w I went to trial by by by the
media, you know, relationshipwith with the public and by the
uh the the DA office and thepolice relationship with the
(10:33):
media.
You know, so um um so I uh uh uha lot of a lot of a lot of
things that the jury may may mayhave heard that was favorable to
me, their their mind probablywas already made up through the
(10:57):
through through through the liesthey was told.
Through all the publicationsYeah, and the bad publicity,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
Let's get into the false evidence, the fabrication
and suppression.
When did you first learn thatthe so-called getaway car was
actually in police impound atthe time of the murder?
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Okay, that was when um uh I read the grand jury
minutes.
I read the people case againstme, and they said that I used uh
um uh a black Mossetti Benz, mymy black Mossetti Benz, uh uh to
commit the crime.
(11:41):
You know, that I was a getawaycar, and that everybody was
supposed to ride back in the inin this car with me and after
the after the shooting.
But the car was actually sittingin the police town at the time
of the shooting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
And this ties into your last question about, you
know, uh being convicted by themedia before I even went to
trial because uh uh that reportthat the car was in the police
at the time was was uh was wasentered into evidence at my
(12:23):
trial on from from from mylawyers and them, but I I doubt
the juries even looked atit. 'Cause they would have
looked at it, they would theywould have seen that that's
impossible for me to have comcommitted this um this crime,
that car being a getaway car.
But I I I doubt they they veryseriously looked at that report.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
So that was never brought up like during your
trial?
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
The the the report was was what was into into
evidence, you know, uh for mylawyer, like at the end of
trial, he moved the policereport into evidence.
Now whether the jury seen it ornot, that's that's another
story.
But uh was the report uh uhmentioned in front of the jury
(13:12):
at trial?
No.
You know, it was like at the endof trial, my lawyer said, Your
Honor, we like to move thisreport in, you know, and they
moved the report into evidence.
Whether the jury seen it, Idoubt it because it was so many
other pieces of evidence beingsubmitted in, so that could have
(13:33):
just, you know, fell through thecracks.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Yeah.
What went through your mind whenyou discovered the prosecution
hid the fact that a key witnesslied to the grand jury?
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
That was that that was crazy there because we we we
didn't find out about that untilyou know all through trial the
the DA suppressed that from us.
And what we found out about itwas the day that the witness was
(14:10):
about to testify, that morning,he turned that over to us.
And then when we read it, we'relike, okay, you know.
And when the witness took thestand and he was questioned by
the prosecution, he was onlyquestioned about uh because I
(14:32):
have two wrongful convictions.
He was only questioned about thefirst wrongful conviction, the
second wrongful conviction, nono questions was asked of the
witness.
And we we thought that wasstrange because he went to the
grand jury and I got indicted onboth wrongful convictions based
on his grand jury testimony.
(14:53):
So my attorney um uh when itwhen it was our time to
cross-examine the witness, myattorney asked him that question
about the the second wrongfulconviction, uh, second uh uh uh
murder wrongful conviction, andthat's when he told us at trial
(15:14):
that that he lied.
You know, that he he he wasn'tthere and that he he he made he
made all that up.
No, I got it.
You know, he he he he he made hemade all all that up.
So um um so but but we didn'tknow how he got that information
(15:37):
until 2022.
We found out that he learnedabout everything through Scott
Seller.
So, you know, uh once again,these are just all uh all the
the the the shenanigans that theDA office was was was playing uh
w w w with with us at trial.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Yeah.
How did you react when you foundout an eyewitness actually
identified someone else and thatinformation was buried?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah.
Once again, the the Brooklyn Dayoffice did everything.
I see, and this is the thingtoo, like, you know, uh uh uh
they fast to throw Scarsellaunder on under the bus, you
know.
And and and and rightfully so,you know, but they have to be
(16:31):
held accountable too for thethings that they've done during
my trial.
So when when when for examplethe the finding out about the
witness identifying someone out,the deal officer know about
that.
Though they claim that trial,your honor, we did not know
about that.
Impossible.
You should have been if youdidn't know about it, you should
(16:53):
have known about it.
Because the the the police, thedetectives, they bring all the
evidence to you.
And then you, you know, and thennot only that, you so you speak
to the witness too.
Even even if the the thedetective don't bring you uh uh
the that piece of information,you still get a chance to talk
(17:13):
to the eyewitness.
So um uh I was I was I was I Iwas shocked and I I knew I was
doomed uh when I found out thatthe the w the witness I I
identified someone else.
And then at my trial, you know,even the the judge kind of like
(17:35):
helped the D the DA a lot.
He was a former prosecution, sohe he helped the DA a lot
because when that informationcame out at trial, uh I remember
the judge saying objection overrule.
But what's so what was so funnyabout that was no one objected.
(17:58):
And when he said objection overrule, he said we're gonna take a
10-minute break.
And then they rushed thatwitness out the courtroom.
And then when the DA came backin after the break, hear your
honor.
I just like to uh put on recordthat uh we spoke to this witness
in the hallway.
That's another thing.
This this was a sworn witnessthat was still on the stand, so
(18:22):
they wasn't supposed to have noconversation with him out
outside the courthouse.
Everything's supposed to be puton record.
But anyway, the DA came back inthe courtroom and said, Your
honor, we we spoke to thewitness outside a Hardwalk
hallway, and um uh we did notknow about this this show off
that he picked somebody elseout, but we we believed that it
(18:46):
wasn't Edmondson because he theywas at the preaching at two
different times.
This was somebody else, and thatwas three days after the
incident.
And that was basically it.
The the the judge uh offer uh astipulation to us that he didn't
want to um uh uh uh give us anew hearing, a new
(19:10):
identification hearing.
He said you want the stipulationor not, you know.
So we was basically forced intoa taking a stipulation.
Basically what the stipulationsaid was that the person that he
identified three days after theincident was not Edmundson.
And that's how they put a banddate on that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Yeah.
When you read Scarsella'sfabricated police report today,
what does that tell you aboutthe integrity of the whole
investigation?
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Uh that it was uh uh everyone was involved from the
day office to Scarsella becausehe had to submit this police
report, you know, to to the DAoffice.
And in the police report theysay that the the the the witness
(20:01):
uh in the photo ray the witnesspositively identified me but
then when we read the well attrial when we hear the witness
testimony he said that he didnot tell that cop that he told
the cop that he was not ahundred percent sure if that was
the person but Barcella wrote inhis report that the witness
(20:25):
positively identified me andbased on that report you know
that gave the the the the uh uhthe the DN the police uh of uh
direct to arrest me for for forthat crime and and and to put me
into uh a lineup later on youknow and and to indict me you
(20:49):
know yeah two witnesses laterrecanted under oath what would
you say to the jury who nevergot to hear those recantations I
would say to to to the jurorsthat they should have they
(21:11):
should have asked more for forfor their taxpayers money.
Um granted they they did notknow that these these witnesses
was lying but the the the lawssay in in if there's a
reasonable doubt okay you don'thave to uh know the whole thing
(21:32):
but if there's a reasonabledoubt then you you you're
supposed to return the verdictof of not guilty and there was
plenty of reasonable doubtplenty of red flags even without
the recantation it was plenty ofof reasonable doubt and red
flags so I I I I I I I believethe the jury's they they they
(21:54):
should have asked more more morefor the taxpayers money.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
Yeah definitely another detective def confirmed
misconduct in your case as wellhow did it feel knowing someone
inside the system tried to tellthe truth but wasn't heard okay
I I I'm not sure who that personwas but if if unless we're
(22:19):
talking about detectiveinvestigator Joseph Ponzi.
SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
And Joseph Ponzi he died from cancer uh but he he
was trying to tell the truth uhum uh without throwing his
friend Scarsella under the busbut the judge in two thousand
twenty two uh tossed Garcellaout of the room for trying to uh
(22:50):
tamper with uh a witness at thehearing and what I mean by that
is at the at the at the at the2022 hearing the the the DA
office called detectiveinvestigator Joseph Ponzi who
was being treated for cancer atthe time so we had to take his
(23:13):
testimony from the hospital roomand when the technician that
morning was was uh puttingeverything together the sounds
and everything he noticedsomebody was in the room with
with with the witness talking tohim so he notified the judge so
the judge looked at the screenand asked uh uh oh Mr.
(23:35):
Pozi is there anybody in theroom with you and he said yes
and the judge asked him who andhe said Scarsella so the judge
told him you know let Scarsellaknow that that he's still a
witness that he took an oathhe's still a witness at this
hearing and that basically hegot like one minute two minutes
to get out that room becauseyou're not supposed to be
(23:57):
sitting in the room with awitness that's about to testify
uh uh uh that morning so it wasobvious w why Scarsella was
there to get their storytogether.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yeah you want to hang up and call back sure all
right all right the caller hashung up we're gonna take a brief
intermission uh as you know babySam is currently incarcerated so
he'll give us a call back andwe'll finish the interview then
(24:35):
conversation now right so I wasgetting to what was the hardest
part about accepting that youmight die inside prison for a
conviction built on falsetestimony and hidden evidence.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
Well um yeah I felt like the truth would never get
out like you know I I would diein jail um so so with the truth.
Uh and I still feel still feellike that today.
I feel like I feel like theytrying to silence me and and
(25:18):
what makes you feel like thatthat they're trying to silence
you because they they they theythey reinstated the wrongful
conviction and and and um and Ihad to come back to prison.
You know so um uh I don't Idon't think that the the the
(25:41):
public know about the getawaycar being in and and and the and
the conviction so that they theyreinstated was the conviction
the wrongful conviction wherethe car was in the police cow
that uh in 2022 the judge founduh uh the recanting witness
credible uh the witnesstestimony was that uh he was fed
(26:08):
uh uh uh disinformation aboutthis this crime from Scarsella
and his partner with whatWilliam Morris uh to suppress
evidence uh that that the publicdon't know about so uh that's
why I I believe that they theytrying to silence me now for
disinformation won't won't won'tget won't reach the public.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Yeah what kept you fighting for three decades when
every appeal kept coming backdenied?
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
My promise to my mother and daughter you know I
had a conversation with mymother before she passed away.
She passed away like uh twoyears after my conviction and um
thirty something years ago andthe last conversation I had with
her was she said sir you know umyou have to find your way out.
(27:09):
You know, you you you you're agood person and and and and but
now you have to look out foryourself.
So you have to find yourself Iand I told her I will mommy I I
I I won't stop until I I I Ifind my way out.
And with my daughter, you knowmy daughter was very young once
(27:31):
when I came to jail she was likea year.
You know, but as she got oldershe started asking questions.
You know w her mother couldn'thide from her no more that I was
away in school or whatever.
And so then the question startedcoming and so I started telling
her that I'm I'm working on it.
(27:51):
You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm inprison and and I'm I'm I'm I'm
I'm working on uh my appeal andbut my appeals kept being denied
so when she would ask me I wouldjust tell her I'm still working
on 'em because I was stillworking on because the one was
(28:12):
denied I was file another one.
I just kept fighting and andkept fighting until um I think
it was like in two thousandeleven with the Sandy Hook
shooting.
That's when I just, you know,fell to my knees and just asked
God.
And I just turned my life overto God and then I put everything
(28:34):
in his hands.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
And that leads me to this next question which is how
did prison shape the man youbecame by year ten, year twenty,
year thirty Okay well I was fullof hopes and dreams when I first
came to prison 'cause I wasstill young, I was in my
(28:59):
twenties you know I w hold onone minute.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Yeah, I was I was still young and I was in my
twenties so I at at at that ageI just felt like okay you know
some court is is is gonna see umuh um what was wrong with w with
my child and and it's gonna berectified you know but by year
(29:31):
thirty my hopes and dreams waslike full of despair and
self-pity.
SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
Yeah no I completely understand that what do people
misunderstand most about servingthirty three years for a
conviction built onprosecutorial misconduct well I
think that had such evidencebeen been received at at trial
(30:02):
like these recantations, thesethings we now know, I think the
the the the verdict would havebeen totally different and it
would have been in my favor.
SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
You know, but you know a a lot of this evidence
was suppressed at trial so we wedidn't have it Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
Describe the moment the judge vacated your
conviction what did that feellike for you?
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
Well I still remember that thing like if it
was yesterday um I was veryemotional you know uh but I had
to be strong for my lawyer whokept hugging me so tight every
time the judge spoke.
So that was a a a a a a very,very uh happy moment for uh me
(30:57):
and my family.
What were the first things youwanted to do when you stepped
outside as a free man afterthirty three years well the day
before uh uh day before I gotreleased my little sister passed
away and she was the one that uhshe the one that had got me the
(31:22):
investigator, had paid for theinvestigator and so I was
looking forward to seeing herand then uh I find out the day
before I come home that shepassed away so I wanted to uh I
definitely wanted to bury mylittle sister um when I got out.
(31:43):
It was like a bittersweetmoment.
Um I wanted to visit my mom'sgrave site to let her know that
you know uh I kept my promiseyou know uh which was her dying
wish that I I find my way out.
So I wanted to go back to hergravesite and let her know that.
(32:06):
And um I wanted to hug mydaughter and my sister you know
without any guard telling methat you only get one hug per
visit.
So you know I I I wanted to Iwanted to h hug them for as long
as I can.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
That's deep and and that's what I did.
That's deep how did those threeyears of freedom reshape your
understanding of yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Uh I think no I don't think.
I know it brought me closer toGod and his plan for my for my
path going forward you know umso I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm um but
(33:00):
that's my faith now um you knowand and and and I stand on that.
I I I I stand on that.
Even happening even after havingto come back in here, I I I
stand on my faith with God.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
That's amazing.
It's a beautiful thing.
What did rebuilding your lifelook like family, community,
purpose?
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Well I I I had I I had to rebuild you know uh uh my
family ties and as well as thecommunity I left behind so
that's the three years I washome that's basically what I was
doing rebuilding my family tiesand and and and the community
(33:52):
that that that I came from doingwhatever I can uh to help.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Yeah.
Where were you when you learnedthe appellate court reinstated
your conviction?
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Uh oh I was home.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
I I I was home when my lawyer uh uh called me and
and told me the stunny news souh I cried and and and I thanked
him what was your immediatereaction after proving your case
was tainted and finally buildinga life again well I was happy
(34:35):
you know when when when myconviction was overturned
because I felt like you know I Ifinally got my day in court you
know and uh I couldn't wait torebuild my life.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Yeah so how did you explain that to your to your
daughter and your family afterthey watched you come home and
heal well that was hardespecially for my daughter who
grew up in visiting rooms uh andand and my my granddaughter she
(35:11):
still know she she thinks uh I'min Florida you know her mother
told her that I was I was inFlorida and so hard that when I
talk to her now you know uh uhher mother told me how she
followed the weather report inFlorida and so when I I talked
to her she was like Pop Pop youknow um it's supposed to rain in
(35:36):
Florida or they got a stormcoming in Florida so it breaks
my heart.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
Yeah definitely do you believe the appellate court
truly reveal reviewed yourevidence or simply protected the
original conviction?
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
I think they they they did review the evidence.
I think they protected theoriginal uh um conviction
because um they they they theythey couldn't have reviewed the
evidence because the car like Isaid the the the the the getaway
car was sitting in the policepanel at the time of of the
(36:14):
crime and the Supreme Courtfound the prosecution witness to
to that murder unreliable andunworthy of belief.
So they they they couldn't havereviewed the evidence and yes I
believe that they just wanted toprotect the conviction.
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
Yeah.
After three years of realfreedom living, breathing
rebuilding what did it feel liketo walk yourself back into
custody knowing exactly whatkind of conditions in reality
waited for you inside well Ifelt scared you know I I'm just
(36:55):
gonna say like that I f I feltscared.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
I I didn't know what to expect.
SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
You know, with the prison conditions um had gotten
worse and I I was now a littleolder um I believe I ate I yeah
I ate my last supper that nightuh shower in the morning said
(37:20):
goodbye to my family I I neversaw my friend again that's crazy
did turning yourself in feellike the system was demanding
you sacrifice your life a secondtime it sure it sure feel that
way especially after the systemomits game stinks and then find
(37:45):
a way to reclaim it yeah whatwas the hardest part of that
walk mentally spirituallyemotionally I felt like my faith
I felt like my faith uh wasbeing tested you know and and
and I still feel that way likemy faith is being tested but I'm
(38:07):
I'm gonna I'm going I I standwith God you know I I I'm I'm
I'm fully committed to him youknow and and and and his
promises.
In that moment did you feelabandoned by the justice system
or betrayed by it?
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Yeah, yeah absolutely because when when
when the judge vacated myconviction in twenty two and uh
twenty twenty two i i it was anacknowledgment that justice had
failed.
You know and and that shouldhave been where this story
ended, you know, a manwrongfully convicted by the
system, given a chance to starthis life all over and and live
(38:53):
in peace.
So absolutely I felt abandoned.
SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
When you were home were you on parole um in two
thousand twenty two?
SPEAKER_00 (39:09):
Yeah when I went home?
No, I was out on um I was out onbail.
Yeah it gave me a bail.
So for those three years I wasout on bail I had some some
restrictions you know and someconditions but I was I was out
(39:31):
on a a pill bar.
SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
So your case wasn't fully overturned?
SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
It wasn't fully overturned.
What what they did was theyvacated to my conviction and
ordered a new trial and that'swhat we that's what we was
asking for.
We was asking for a a new trialand after a a a evidence hearing
where the judge sits and listensto all the evidence in the case
(40:00):
you know, he ruled that Ideserve a fair trial based on
the newly discovered evidence uhuh uh and based on the the the
witnesses at at the hearing.
And uh so after that one oncethe judge vacated my conviction,
the the the DE office basicallyhave three options after that.
(40:24):
They could uh retry me, whichthe judge gave them that uh to
retry me or they could dismissit or they could appeal it.
They chose to appeal uh a 33year old wrongful conviction so
they appealed it and you didn'tget a f uh uh another trial no I
(40:49):
never got I never got anothertrial so how does that work well
the way it worked is they theyappealed it the the appellate
division uh agreed partiallywith them at least to reinstate
one of the wrongful convictionsand um and retry me on the on
(41:12):
the on the first wrongfulconviction which I I understand
that they they um they theydismissed that wrongful
conviction that they won't beretrying me on that wrongful
conviction so let me ask youthis in all of your years of
being in prison of beingincarcerated have you ever heard
(41:32):
of that happening to someoneelse not not me I I I've I
haven't heard that because I'mgonna tell you why because both
wrongful convictions uh it'salmost like a soda bottle soda
inside of a bottle and uh andthe soda is the wrongful
(41:54):
conviction you know so the thethe soda that's inside of
wrongful conviction they bothcome out of the same bottle but
the the courts will the the thethe the television uh uh was
able to reinstate one andbasically dismiss the other or
basically tell them to retry meon the other one so and we talk
(42:19):
about the the same witnesses forfor for both room for conviction
the same uh uh crooked copsGarcella and his partner uh for
the same murder and then we alsohave the court in 2022 uh uh uh
declaring their witness theprosecution witness unreliable
(42:43):
and unworthy of belief you knowbut yet the appellate found a
way to reclaim it and I I Idon't believe that they found a
way I think what what what whatthey did was illegal I think
they they they they oversteppedtheir boundaries because when
the the lower courts decide acase when they look at all the
(43:07):
evidence they in the bestposition to uh see the witness
demeanor to to to listen to thewitness to ask the witness
questions the television theydon't have the luxury of that
they just have the record infront of them like the
(43:28):
transcripts from that hearingand based on the transcripts
from that hearing you know uh uhuh uh they reinstated and and I
I shouldn't even say based onthe transcripts of of that uh of
that uh hearing but theyreinstated my my role for
conviction um uh overturning thefact finding credibility uh
(43:54):
determination meaning the courtin twenty twenty two that
vacated my conviction they theyare the fact finder he found the
prosecution witness to beincredible and unworthy of
belief and then you have thetelevision overturning that yeah
(44:16):
that's unheard of I've I've I'venever heard of anything like
that ever dealing with uh theprison system but let's move
along what do you believe yourcase says about the crack era
convictions that are stillstanding today I think they need
(44:37):
to I think they need to well Ithink they need to look into
those cases because there it wasa lot going on back then where
you had you know uh the theTexas blank Scott Seller who was
not solving cases he was closingthem by any means necessary and
he was using unreliablewitnesses to to close these
(45:02):
cases like prostitutes uhcrackheads uh the worst of the
worst is people who we later onfinding out that they were sent
this information that they don'teven they they never do the
victim and and in some casesyeah the cases were manufactured
right you know and then alsothey need to they need to take a
(45:28):
look at Charles Hines Brooklyn Doffice who's basically running
this this this this thing from aa hotel uh uh we find out later
on like they would take theseunreliable witnesses like
prostitutes and and and andcrackheads and knew that they
(45:49):
couldn't just serve them with asubpoena because they wouldn't
show up so they would put themin these hotel rooms for like
three days to dry them out,clean them up and then bring
them to court to testify againstus.
SPEAKER_01 (46:04):
Yeah that's crazy that's that's the basis of
manufacturing cases yeah howmany men do you believe are
still sitting in cells becauseof misconduct like what happened
in your case?
SPEAKER_00 (46:19):
Oh man my my my guess the number is staggering
unfortunately you know um it I II re well just looking at just
the Scarsella cases man thosenumbers are are are wild but you
(46:40):
know you have people that didn'thave Scarsella you know um that
got that got caught up back thenduring that era.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Yeah definitely Scars just one of many right if
you could say one thing directlyto the Brooklyn's DA office what
would it be?
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
I would say that if justice still means anything in
New York, DA Gonzalez has achoice I mean he can stand with
the community that elected himand demonstrate it and
(47:27):
demonstrate that true justice isabout fair outcomes or he can
just let the system you knowtake his course and once again
you know um prove that titlesand appearances do nothing but
(47:51):
change the reality of of ourcommunities, you know, black and
brown communities.
You know so um that's whatthat's that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Yeah.
What message do you want peopleto understand about cases tied
to Scarsella in that era ofpolicing?
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Well basically what I said before uh which is you
know that that they were alsotied to Charles Hines booked the
DA office.
I mean they they was partners inthis they was cohorts co a a a
cohort uh cohorts yeah cohortsyeah you know they was acting in
concert with with one anotherthere's nothing Scarsella did
(48:38):
that the DA office did not knowfirst yeah definitely they was
working hand in hand yeah yourpetitions your petition has
thousands rallying behind youwhat does that support mean
after three decades of beingsilenced I mean the world for me
(48:58):
I'm telling you I'm humbled byit all you know and and and
overwhelmed by by by by thesupport you know God is good I I
I put him first and and I allowhim to to guide me and and and
and to have his way with me andand to have his way with uh of
(49:22):
my petition.
SPEAKER_01 (49:24):
Yeah definitely what do you hope people understand
when they read your petition andyour story?
SPEAKER_00 (49:33):
Well you know like I said earlier you know uh the
system will find a way toreclaim it after they they
they'll make their m theirmistakes and I'm I'm a living
example of that.
SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Absolutely if the public could pressure one single
action what should they demandfrom New York State complete
accountability and transparencyto the families of of Scarsella
victims that's that are stillbehind bars today.
(50:13):
That's powerful if you had onemessage for the world about your
life your case your fight whatwould it be well I would say if
my life case and fight provesanything I hope it proves to
(50:34):
young people and this isimportant that that life is what
you make it stay in school bekind to one another listen to
your parents and put God firstafter everything you've survived
do you still believe justice ispossible and see this goes this
(50:55):
question goes back to to myfaith I believe everything and I
mean everything is possiblethrough God including justice
absolutely and one one finalquestion what what is your
message for the youth and thepeople listening to this
(51:16):
interview well like I like Isaid I would tell the youth that
you know the the the the thegraveyard and the prison yard is
is full of fictional characters.
(51:38):
I mean not fictional charactersbut characters with uh uh uh uh
fictional names like Scarfaceand Frank White and Nino Browns
and so I would tell I would tellthe youth that to be kind to one
(51:59):
another to to to stay woke staywoke stay in school um uh uh uh
listen to your parents and don'tbe fooled don't don't be fooled
by by by by uh by the moviesthat that helps influence some
(52:27):
of our decisions even by some ofthe the the music you know uh
and just remember that thesemovies and music is just for
entertainment purposes only youknow so uh that that's our
message to to to the youth besafe love one another be kind
and put God first absolutelybaby Sam thank you for your
(52:50):
honesty your strength and yourwillingness to speak on a system
that tried to erase you yourstory is more than a case it's a
mirror held up to the justicesystem in New York to everyone
listening if you care aboutjustice about fairness about the
truth go read the full articleon lftgradio.com and sign the
petition demandingaccountability and a full
(53:11):
reinvestigation stand with babySam the link will be linked into
this interview this is ElliotCarter reporting live from the
gutter where the truth stillmatters good morning and
Godspeed signing out
Good morning, Godspeed.
It's Elliot Carter reportinglive from the gutter.
And today we're having aconversation the system never
wanted the public to hear.
For over 33 years, Samuel BabySam Edison sat in a prison cell
on a conviction built on lies,suppressed evidence, fabricated
police work, and witnesses wholater admitted they were they
(00:20):
weren't telling the truth.
In 2022, a Brooklyn judgevacated that conviction.
The system admitted what he'dbeen saying for decades.
The trial wasn't fair.
For three years, Baby Sam livedas a free man again, rebuilding
his life, reconnecting with hisfamily, and becoming a part of a
community that welcomed himhome.
(00:41):
But in 2025, the state of NewYork reached back and took that
freedom away.
Today's interview is not aboutguilt, innocence, or street
legends.
It's about truth, due process,and what happens when the
justice system refuses tocorrect its own mistakes.
This is Samuel Edmondson's storyin his own words.
(01:02):
Let's begin.
Baby Sam, where are you callingfrom right now?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
I'm calling from Green Haven Correctional
Facility.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
And how are the conditions in there?
What's going on with you inthere?
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Well, everything is okay with me uh under the
circumstances of being myconviction being reinstated.
Uh it's it's not the same as asI left it though, three years
ago, uh prison changeddramatically.
SPEAKER_01 (01:37):
How so?
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Um just with the uh the guards, the inmates, um
things that that been happeningin the system or why I was gone,
it's it it just changed and itgot and it got worse.
It just it just got worse.
You know, it's it's like the thelack of staff, you know, it's
(02:02):
not enough staff, and uh thecaliber of prisoners uh are not
the same, you know.
Uh when I when I when I firststarted m uh my did out.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, no, I understand completely.
Let's get into your case and theand the origins, the man before
the myth.
Before the newspapers and beforethe courtroom, who was Samuel
Edmondson growing up inBrownsville?
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Okay.
Okay, I want to say this, right?
First of all, uh I was born SamEdmondson, but the media, the
media needed a villain, so theychanged my name to Samuel, baby
Sam Edmondson.
So it could sound like moresinister, like Vincent the Chin
(02:55):
or like uh Sam the Brook of Iknow, you know, but my mother
and father uh never married andthey were from the South and
when when you're not married inin in the south and you name
after your father, you're eitherbaby Sam or little Sam.
You're not a junior.
So I was named after my father,so I was considered baby Sam.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
What did the late eighties feellike from inside the community,
not through the headlines?
unknown (03:31):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Okay, let me see.
Let me try to give you uh painta picture for you.
Okay.
Uh okay.
It felt like from from inside itlooked like Ukraine.
Except Russia wasn't droppingbombs on the US.
The US was dropping bombs on itsown citizens.
(03:56):
You know, like cracking like abomb, you know, um jobs
disappeared.
Um police showed up um not tohelp but to arrest and NYC, New
(04:18):
York was like, you know, it waslike a battlefield, you know.
Um uh where where kids growingup, you know, had to to adapt
and survive.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
Yeah, definitely.
When the media labeled you akingpin, what parts of your real
story did they leave out?
SPEAKER_00 (04:41):
Okay.
Initially, I had tried to enlistin the military twice.
Once in the Marines and later inthe army, but to no avail.
Um, I later became a student atuh the University of Peru
College.
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
Okay, nice.
And what did you study there?
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Business administration.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
And how did that end for you?
How did you end up, you know,changing your path?
SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
What happened was um I lost my brother in eighty six
and that was like my s that wasmy older brother, and that was
my second brother in less than ayear.
And I I I r I remember and I tryto keep it keep it straight even
after his death.
I I I still continue to go toschool, but you know, I I I
(05:38):
found myself, you know, um uh uhstruggling with that.
You know, struggling with thefact that I lost two brothers,
struggling with with the factthat we still in the project,
and I didn't want to loseanother brother.
So, you know, I wanted I wantedto remove my my my my mom from
from from the project.
(05:58):
So I remember one day um comingback from school, taking my
books and throwing them on atrain track just before the
train comes.
So I knew that once I did thatbecause those were used books
that I bought.
So I knew that once I didn'thave those books no more, I knew
I wasn't coming back.
So I dropped out of college.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Yeah.
I understand the the methodologybehind that.
When you first heard the chargesagainst you back in nineteen
eighty-eight through nineteenninety, did the state story
match the reality that youlived?
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
No, absolutely not.
I mean, cause that was the firsttime I ever heard of enterprise
corruption, you know, and I wasat my trial, and then they had a
chart at my trial with titleslike Lieutenant Overseer,
Controller, Commander in Chief,Chief of Security, and so forth.
(06:58):
Names that I I never even heardbefore, uh uh uh not alone heard
anyone else identify their selfas that.
So uh no, it it it it it didn't.
It c it caught it it it caughtme totally of God.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
Yeah, they just created their own structure.
SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
How did it feel watching witnesses take the
stand knowing their storiesdidn't match the truth?
SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Wow.
That that was that was uh well Ifelt helpless.
You know, like like I waswatching uh uh a bad episode of
Law and Order.
Except uh the people that tookthe oath to uphold the law was
now breaking the law.
So I I had to I had to sit thereand listen to these witnesses.
(07:53):
Some witnesses I never even metbefore, you know, tell these
stories and these lies that theuh the the prosecution police
set them.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Yeah, that's that's a common theme that I'm hearing
on this podcast and in lawenforcement and corruption, you
know, just them coercingwitnesses and you know getting
them to tell lies on the standjust for another conviction.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
What do you remember about Detective Louis
Scarsella's place in your caseor the atmosphere surrounding
him?
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
What do I remember about Scarsella?
Well what I remember aboutScarsella was uh uh a very
arrogant person.
Uh uh self-centered, um even notsadistic, you know.
(08:58):
Um that was my first impressionof him, you know, when when when
when so when I met him, youknow.
And um so it's a lot that Ididn't know about him until
later on it started coming outlike years later.
(09:20):
But when I did hear it, itdidn't surprise me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Yeah.
Did you have much interactionwith him?
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah.
He uh um he he arrested me.
He was my arresting he was he hehe was my arresting officer, you
know.
Uh which is which is funnybecause he said that he didn't
have anything to do with my caseand when asked did he arrest me,
(09:53):
he said he don't recall and hesaid black and white that he
arrested me.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah, of course.
Did you feel like yourconviction was decided before
your trial even began?
And why?
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah, uh I think I think I was uh I think I was I
was I was convicted long beforeI w I went to trial by by by the
media, you know, relationshipwith with the public and by the
uh the the DA office and thepolice relationship with the
(10:33):
media.
You know, so um um so I uh uh uha lot of a lot of a lot of
things that the jury may may mayhave heard that was favorable to
me, their their mind probablywas already made up through the
(10:57):
through through through the liesthey was told.
Through all the publicationsYeah, and the bad publicity,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
Let's get into the false evidence, the fabrication
and suppression.
When did you first learn thatthe so-called getaway car was
actually in police impound atthe time of the murder?
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Okay, that was when um uh I read the grand jury
minutes.
I read the people case againstme, and they said that I used uh
um uh a black Mossetti Benz, mymy black Mossetti Benz, uh uh to
commit the crime.
(11:41):
You know, that I was a getawaycar, and that everybody was
supposed to ride back in the inin this car with me and after
the after the shooting.
But the car was actually sittingin the police town at the time
of the shooting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
And this ties into your last question about, you
know, uh being convicted by themedia before I even went to
trial because uh uh that reportthat the car was in the police
at the time was was uh was wasentered into evidence at my
(12:23):
trial on from from from mylawyers and them, but I I doubt
the juries even looked atit. 'Cause they would have
looked at it, they would theywould have seen that that's
impossible for me to have comcommitted this um this crime,
that car being a getaway car.
But I I I doubt they they veryseriously looked at that report.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
So that was never brought up like during your
trial?
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
The the the report was was what was into into
evidence, you know, uh for mylawyer, like at the end of
trial, he moved the policereport into evidence.
Now whether the jury seen it ornot, that's that's another
story.
But uh was the report uh uhmentioned in front of the jury
(13:12):
at trial?
No.
You know, it was like at the endof trial, my lawyer said, Your
Honor, we like to move thisreport in, you know, and they
moved the report into evidence.
Whether the jury seen it, Idoubt it because it was so many
other pieces of evidence beingsubmitted in, so that could have
(13:33):
just, you know, fell through thecracks.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Yeah.
What went through your mind whenyou discovered the prosecution
hid the fact that a key witnesslied to the grand jury?
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
That was that that was crazy there because we we we
didn't find out about that untilyou know all through trial the
the DA suppressed that from us.
And what we found out about itwas the day that the witness was
(14:10):
about to testify, that morning,he turned that over to us.
And then when we read it, we'relike, okay, you know.
And when the witness took thestand and he was questioned by
the prosecution, he was onlyquestioned about uh because I
(14:32):
have two wrongful convictions.
He was only questioned about thefirst wrongful conviction, the
second wrongful conviction, nono questions was asked of the
witness.
And we we thought that wasstrange because he went to the
grand jury and I got indicted onboth wrongful convictions based
on his grand jury testimony.
(14:53):
So my attorney um uh when itwhen it was our time to
cross-examine the witness, myattorney asked him that question
about the the second wrongfulconviction, uh, second uh uh uh
murder wrongful conviction, andthat's when he told us at trial
(15:14):
that that he lied.
You know, that he he he wasn'tthere and that he he he made he
made all that up.
No, I got it.
You know, he he he he he made hemade all all that up.
So um um so but but we didn'tknow how he got that information
(15:37):
until 2022.
We found out that he learnedabout everything through Scott
Seller.
So, you know, uh once again,these are just all uh all the
the the the shenanigans that theDA office was was was playing uh
w w w with with us at trial.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Yeah.
How did you react when you foundout an eyewitness actually
identified someone else and thatinformation was buried?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah.
Once again, the the Brooklyn Dayoffice did everything.
I see, and this is the thingtoo, like, you know, uh uh uh
they fast to throw Scarsellaunder on under the bus, you
know.
And and and and rightfully so,you know, but they have to be
(16:31):
held accountable too for thethings that they've done during
my trial.
So when when when for examplethe the finding out about the
witness identifying someone out,the deal officer know about
that.
Though they claim that trial,your honor, we did not know
about that.
Impossible.
You should have been if youdidn't know about it, you should
(16:53):
have known about it.
Because the the the police, thedetectives, they bring all the
evidence to you.
And then you, you know, and thennot only that, you so you speak
to the witness too.
Even even if the the thedetective don't bring you uh uh
the that piece of information,you still get a chance to talk
(17:13):
to the eyewitness.
So um uh I was I was I was I Iwas shocked and I I knew I was
doomed uh when I found out thatthe the w the witness I I
identified someone else.
And then at my trial, you know,even the the judge kind of like
(17:35):
helped the D the DA a lot.
He was a former prosecution, sohe he helped the DA a lot
because when that informationcame out at trial, uh I remember
the judge saying objection overrule.
But what's so what was so funnyabout that was no one objected.
(17:58):
And when he said objection overrule, he said we're gonna take a
10-minute break.
And then they rushed thatwitness out the courtroom.
And then when the DA came backin after the break, hear your
honor.
I just like to uh put on recordthat uh we spoke to this witness
in the hallway.
That's another thing.
This this was a sworn witnessthat was still on the stand, so
(18:22):
they wasn't supposed to have noconversation with him out
outside the courthouse.
Everything's supposed to be puton record.
But anyway, the DA came back inthe courtroom and said, Your
honor, we we spoke to thewitness outside a Hardwalk
hallway, and um uh we did notknow about this this show off
that he picked somebody elseout, but we we believed that it
(18:46):
wasn't Edmondson because he theywas at the preaching at two
different times.
This was somebody else, and thatwas three days after the
incident.
And that was basically it.
The the the judge uh offer uh astipulation to us that he didn't
want to um uh uh uh give us anew hearing, a new
(19:10):
identification hearing.
He said you want the stipulationor not, you know.
So we was basically forced intoa taking a stipulation.
Basically what the stipulationsaid was that the person that he
identified three days after theincident was not Edmundson.
And that's how they put a banddate on that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Yeah.
When you read Scarsella'sfabricated police report today,
what does that tell you aboutthe integrity of the whole
investigation?
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Uh that it was uh uh everyone was involved from the
day office to Scarsella becausehe had to submit this police
report, you know, to to the DAoffice.
And in the police report theysay that the the the the witness
(20:01):
uh in the photo ray the witnesspositively identified me but
then when we read the well attrial when we hear the witness
testimony he said that he didnot tell that cop that he told
the cop that he was not ahundred percent sure if that was
the person but Barcella wrote inhis report that the witness
(20:25):
positively identified me andbased on that report you know
that gave the the the the uh uhthe the DN the police uh of uh
direct to arrest me for for forthat crime and and and to put me
into uh a lineup later on youknow and and to indict me you
(20:49):
know yeah two witnesses laterrecanted under oath what would
you say to the jury who nevergot to hear those recantations I
would say to to to the jurorsthat they should have they
(21:11):
should have asked more for forfor their taxpayers money.
Um granted they they did notknow that these these witnesses
was lying but the the the lawssay in in if there's a
reasonable doubt okay you don'thave to uh know the whole thing
(21:32):
but if there's a reasonabledoubt then you you you're
supposed to return the verdictof of not guilty and there was
plenty of reasonable doubtplenty of red flags even without
the recantation it was plenty ofof reasonable doubt and red
flags so I I I I I I I believethe the jury's they they they
(21:54):
should have asked more more morefor the taxpayers money.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
Yeah definitely another detective def confirmed
misconduct in your case as wellhow did it feel knowing someone
inside the system tried to tellthe truth but wasn't heard okay
I I I'm not sure who that personwas but if if unless we're
(22:19):
talking about detectiveinvestigator Joseph Ponzi.
SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
And Joseph Ponzi he died from cancer uh but he he
was trying to tell the truth uhum uh without throwing his
friend Scarsella under the busbut the judge in two thousand
twenty two uh tossed Garcellaout of the room for trying to uh
(22:50):
tamper with uh a witness at thehearing and what I mean by that
is at the at the at the at the2022 hearing the the the DA
office called detectiveinvestigator Joseph Ponzi who
was being treated for cancer atthe time so we had to take his
(23:13):
testimony from the hospital roomand when the technician that
morning was was uh puttingeverything together the sounds
and everything he noticedsomebody was in the room with
with with the witness talking tohim so he notified the judge so
the judge looked at the screenand asked uh uh oh Mr.
(23:35):
Pozi is there anybody in theroom with you and he said yes
and the judge asked him who andhe said Scarsella so the judge
told him you know let Scarsellaknow that that he's still a
witness that he took an oathhe's still a witness at this
hearing and that basically hegot like one minute two minutes
to get out that room becauseyou're not supposed to be
(23:57):
sitting in the room with awitness that's about to testify
uh uh uh that morning so it wasobvious w why Scarsella was
there to get their storytogether.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yeah you want to hang up and call back sure all
right all right the caller hashung up we're gonna take a brief
intermission uh as you know babySam is currently incarcerated so
he'll give us a call back andwe'll finish the interview then
(24:35):
conversation now right so I wasgetting to what was the hardest
part about accepting that youmight die inside prison for a
conviction built on falsetestimony and hidden evidence.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
Well um yeah I felt like the truth would never get
out like you know I I would diein jail um so so with the truth.
Uh and I still feel still feellike that today.
I feel like I feel like theytrying to silence me and and
(25:18):
what makes you feel like thatthat they're trying to silence
you because they they they theythey reinstated the wrongful
conviction and and and um and Ihad to come back to prison.
You know so um uh I don't Idon't think that the the the
(25:41):
public know about the getawaycar being in and and and the and
the conviction so that they theyreinstated was the conviction
the wrongful conviction wherethe car was in the police cow
that uh in 2022 the judge founduh uh the recanting witness
credible uh the witnesstestimony was that uh he was fed
(26:08):
uh uh uh disinformation aboutthis this crime from Scarsella
and his partner with whatWilliam Morris uh to suppress
evidence uh that that the publicdon't know about so uh that's
why I I believe that they theytrying to silence me now for
disinformation won't won't won'tget won't reach the public.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Yeah what kept you fighting for three decades when
every appeal kept coming backdenied?
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
My promise to my mother and daughter you know I
had a conversation with mymother before she passed away.
She passed away like uh twoyears after my conviction and um
thirty something years ago andthe last conversation I had with
her was she said sir you know umyou have to find your way out.
(27:09):
You know, you you you you're agood person and and and and but
now you have to look out foryourself.
So you have to find yourself Iand I told her I will mommy I I
I I won't stop until I I I Ifind my way out.
And with my daughter, you knowmy daughter was very young once
(27:31):
when I came to jail she was likea year.
You know, but as she got oldershe started asking questions.
You know w her mother couldn'thide from her no more that I was
away in school or whatever.
And so then the question startedcoming and so I started telling
her that I'm I'm working on it.
(27:51):
You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm inprison and and I'm I'm I'm I'm
I'm working on uh my appeal andbut my appeals kept being denied
so when she would ask me I wouldjust tell her I'm still working
on 'em because I was stillworking on because the one was
(28:12):
denied I was file another one.
I just kept fighting and andkept fighting until um I think
it was like in two thousandeleven with the Sandy Hook
shooting.
That's when I just, you know,fell to my knees and just asked
God.
And I just turned my life overto God and then I put everything
(28:34):
in his hands.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
And that leads me to this next question which is how
did prison shape the man youbecame by year ten, year twenty,
year thirty Okay well I was fullof hopes and dreams when I first
came to prison 'cause I wasstill young, I was in my
(28:59):
twenties you know I w hold onone minute.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Yeah, I was I was still young and I was in my
twenties so I at at at that ageI just felt like okay you know
some court is is is gonna see umuh um what was wrong with w with
my child and and it's gonna berectified you know but by year
(29:31):
thirty my hopes and dreams waslike full of despair and
self-pity.
SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
Yeah no I completely understand that what do people
misunderstand most about servingthirty three years for a
conviction built onprosecutorial misconduct well I
think that had such evidencebeen been received at at trial
(30:02):
like these recantations, thesethings we now know, I think the
the the the verdict would havebeen totally different and it
would have been in my favor.
SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
You know, but you know a a lot of this evidence
was suppressed at trial so we wedidn't have it Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
Describe the moment the judge vacated your
conviction what did that feellike for you?
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
Well I still remember that thing like if it
was yesterday um I was veryemotional you know uh but I had
to be strong for my lawyer whokept hugging me so tight every
time the judge spoke.
So that was a a a a a a very,very uh happy moment for uh me
(30:57):
and my family.
What were the first things youwanted to do when you stepped
outside as a free man afterthirty three years well the day
before uh uh day before I gotreleased my little sister passed
away and she was the one that uhshe the one that had got me the
(31:22):
investigator, had paid for theinvestigator and so I was
looking forward to seeing herand then uh I find out the day
before I come home that shepassed away so I wanted to uh I
definitely wanted to bury mylittle sister um when I got out.
(31:43):
It was like a bittersweetmoment.
Um I wanted to visit my mom'sgrave site to let her know that
you know uh I kept my promiseyou know uh which was her dying
wish that I I find my way out.
So I wanted to go back to hergravesite and let her know that.
(32:06):
And um I wanted to hug mydaughter and my sister you know
without any guard telling methat you only get one hug per
visit.
So you know I I I wanted to Iwanted to h hug them for as long
as I can.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
That's deep and and that's what I did.
That's deep how did those threeyears of freedom reshape your
understanding of yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Uh I think no I don't think.
I know it brought me closer toGod and his plan for my for my
path going forward you know umso I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm um but
(33:00):
that's my faith now um you knowand and and and I stand on that.
I I I I stand on that.
Even happening even after havingto come back in here, I I I
stand on my faith with God.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
That's amazing.
It's a beautiful thing.
What did rebuilding your lifelook like family, community,
purpose?
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Well I I I had I I had to rebuild you know uh uh my
family ties and as well as thecommunity I left behind so
that's the three years I washome that's basically what I was
doing rebuilding my family tiesand and and and the community
(33:52):
that that that I came from doingwhatever I can uh to help.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Yeah.
Where were you when you learnedthe appellate court reinstated
your conviction?
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Uh oh I was home.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
I I I was home when my lawyer uh uh called me and
and told me the stunny news souh I cried and and and I thanked
him what was your immediatereaction after proving your case
was tainted and finally buildinga life again well I was happy
(34:35):
you know when when when myconviction was overturned
because I felt like you know I Ifinally got my day in court you
know and uh I couldn't wait torebuild my life.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Yeah so how did you explain that to your to your
daughter and your family afterthey watched you come home and
heal well that was hardespecially for my daughter who
grew up in visiting rooms uh andand and my my granddaughter she
(35:11):
still know she she thinks uh I'min Florida you know her mother
told her that I was I was inFlorida and so hard that when I
talk to her now you know uh uhher mother told me how she
followed the weather report inFlorida and so when I I talked
to her she was like Pop Pop youknow um it's supposed to rain in
(35:36):
Florida or they got a stormcoming in Florida so it breaks
my heart.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
Yeah definitely do you believe the appellate court
truly reveal reviewed yourevidence or simply protected the
original conviction?
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
I think they they they did review the evidence.
I think they protected theoriginal uh um conviction
because um they they they theythey couldn't have reviewed the
evidence because the car like Isaid the the the the the getaway
car was sitting in the policepanel at the time of of the
(36:14):
crime and the Supreme Courtfound the prosecution witness to
to that murder unreliable andunworthy of belief.
So they they they couldn't havereviewed the evidence and yes I
believe that they just wanted toprotect the conviction.
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
Yeah.
After three years of realfreedom living, breathing
rebuilding what did it feel liketo walk yourself back into
custody knowing exactly whatkind of conditions in reality
waited for you inside well Ifelt scared you know I I'm just
(36:55):
gonna say like that I f I feltscared.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
I I didn't know what to expect.
SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
You know, with the prison conditions um had gotten
worse and I I was now a littleolder um I believe I ate I yeah
I ate my last supper that nightuh shower in the morning said
(37:20):
goodbye to my family I I neversaw my friend again that's crazy
did turning yourself in feellike the system was demanding
you sacrifice your life a secondtime it sure it sure feel that
way especially after the systemomits game stinks and then find
(37:45):
a way to reclaim it yeah whatwas the hardest part of that
walk mentally spirituallyemotionally I felt like my faith
I felt like my faith uh wasbeing tested you know and and
and I still feel that way likemy faith is being tested but I'm
(38:07):
I'm gonna I'm going I I standwith God you know I I I'm I'm
I'm fully committed to him youknow and and and and his
promises.
In that moment did you feelabandoned by the justice system
or betrayed by it?
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Yeah, yeah absolutely because when when
when the judge vacated myconviction in twenty two and uh
twenty twenty two i i it was anacknowledgment that justice had
failed.
You know and and that shouldhave been where this story
ended, you know, a manwrongfully convicted by the
system, given a chance to starthis life all over and and live
(38:53):
in peace.
So absolutely I felt abandoned.
SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
When you were home were you on parole um in two
thousand twenty two?
SPEAKER_00 (39:09):
Yeah when I went home?
No, I was out on um I was out onbail.
Yeah it gave me a bail.
So for those three years I wasout on bail I had some some
restrictions you know and someconditions but I was I was out
(39:31):
on a a pill bar.
SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
So your case wasn't fully overturned?
SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
It wasn't fully overturned.
What what they did was theyvacated to my conviction and
ordered a new trial and that'swhat we that's what we was
asking for.
We was asking for a a new trialand after a a a evidence hearing
where the judge sits and listensto all the evidence in the case
(40:00):
you know, he ruled that Ideserve a fair trial based on
the newly discovered evidence uhuh uh and based on the the the
witnesses at at the hearing.
And uh so after that one oncethe judge vacated my conviction,
the the the DE office basicallyhave three options after that.
(40:24):
They could uh retry me, whichthe judge gave them that uh to
retry me or they could dismissit or they could appeal it.
They chose to appeal uh a 33year old wrongful conviction so
they appealed it and you didn'tget a f uh uh another trial no I
(40:49):
never got I never got anothertrial so how does that work well
the way it worked is they theyappealed it the the appellate
division uh agreed partiallywith them at least to reinstate
one of the wrongful convictionsand um and retry me on the on
(41:12):
the on the first wrongfulconviction which I I understand
that they they um they theydismissed that wrongful
conviction that they won't beretrying me on that wrongful
conviction so let me ask youthis in all of your years of
being in prison of beingincarcerated have you ever heard
(41:32):
of that happening to someoneelse not not me I I I've I
haven't heard that because I'mgonna tell you why because both
wrongful convictions uh it'salmost like a soda bottle soda
inside of a bottle and uh andthe soda is the wrongful
(41:54):
conviction you know so the thethe soda that's inside of
wrongful conviction they bothcome out of the same bottle but
the the courts will the the thethe the television uh uh was
able to reinstate one andbasically dismiss the other or
basically tell them to retry meon the other one so and we talk
(42:19):
about the the same witnesses forfor for both room for conviction
the same uh uh crooked copsGarcella and his partner uh for
the same murder and then we alsohave the court in 2022 uh uh uh
declaring their witness theprosecution witness unreliable
(42:43):
and unworthy of belief you knowbut yet the appellate found a
way to reclaim it and I I Idon't believe that they found a
way I think what what what whatthey did was illegal I think
they they they they oversteppedtheir boundaries because when
the the lower courts decide acase when they look at all the
(43:07):
evidence they in the bestposition to uh see the witness
demeanor to to to listen to thewitness to ask the witness
questions the television theydon't have the luxury of that
they just have the record infront of them like the
(43:28):
transcripts from that hearingand based on the transcripts
from that hearing you know uh uhuh uh they reinstated and and I
I shouldn't even say based onthe transcripts of of that uh of
that uh hearing but theyreinstated my my role for
conviction um uh overturning thefact finding credibility uh
(43:54):
determination meaning the courtin twenty twenty two that
vacated my conviction they theyare the fact finder he found the
prosecution witness to beincredible and unworthy of
belief and then you have thetelevision overturning that yeah
(44:16):
that's unheard of I've I've I'venever heard of anything like
that ever dealing with uh theprison system but let's move
along what do you believe yourcase says about the crack era
convictions that are stillstanding today I think they need
(44:37):
to I think they need to well Ithink they need to look into
those cases because there it wasa lot going on back then where
you had you know uh the theTexas blank Scott Seller who was
not solving cases he was closingthem by any means necessary and
he was using unreliablewitnesses to to close these
(45:02):
cases like prostitutes uhcrackheads uh the worst of the
worst is people who we later onfinding out that they were sent
this information that they don'teven they they never do the
victim and and in some casesyeah the cases were manufactured
right you know and then alsothey need to they need to take a
(45:28):
look at Charles Hines Brooklyn Doffice who's basically running
this this this this thing from aa hotel uh uh we find out later
on like they would take theseunreliable witnesses like
prostitutes and and and andcrackheads and knew that they
(45:49):
couldn't just serve them with asubpoena because they wouldn't
show up so they would put themin these hotel rooms for like
three days to dry them out,clean them up and then bring
them to court to testify againstus.
SPEAKER_01 (46:04):
Yeah that's crazy that's that's the basis of
manufacturing cases yeah howmany men do you believe are
still sitting in cells becauseof misconduct like what happened
in your case?
SPEAKER_00 (46:19):
Oh man my my my guess the number is staggering
unfortunately you know um it I II re well just looking at just
the Scarsella cases man thosenumbers are are are wild but you
(46:40):
know you have people that didn'thave Scarsella you know um that
got that got caught up back thenduring that era.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Yeah definitely Scars just one of many right if
you could say one thing directlyto the Brooklyn's DA office what
would it be?
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
I would say that if justice still means anything in
New York, DA Gonzalez has achoice I mean he can stand with
the community that elected himand demonstrate it and
(47:27):
demonstrate that true justice isabout fair outcomes or he can
just let the system you knowtake his course and once again
you know um prove that titlesand appearances do nothing but
(47:51):
change the reality of of ourcommunities, you know, black and
brown communities.
You know so um that's whatthat's that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Yeah.
What message do you want peopleto understand about cases tied
to Scarsella in that era ofpolicing?
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Well basically what I said before uh which is you
know that that they were alsotied to Charles Hines booked the
DA office.
I mean they they was partners inthis they was cohorts co a a a
cohort uh cohorts yeah cohortsyeah you know they was acting in
concert with with one anotherthere's nothing Scarsella did
(48:38):
that the DA office did not knowfirst yeah definitely they was
working hand in hand yeah yourpetitions your petition has
thousands rallying behind youwhat does that support mean
after three decades of beingsilenced I mean the world for me
(48:58):
I'm telling you I'm humbled byit all you know and and and
overwhelmed by by by by thesupport you know God is good I I
I put him first and and I allowhim to to guide me and and and
and to have his way with me andand to have his way with uh of
(49:22):
my petition.
SPEAKER_01 (49:24):
Yeah definitely what do you hope people understand
when they read your petition andyour story?
SPEAKER_00 (49:33):
Well you know like I said earlier you know uh the
system will find a way toreclaim it after they they
they'll make their m theirmistakes and I'm I'm a living
example of that.
SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Absolutely if the public could pressure one single
action what should they demandfrom New York State complete
accountability and transparencyto the families of of Scarsella
victims that's that are stillbehind bars today.
(50:13):
That's powerful if you had onemessage for the world about your
life your case your fight whatwould it be well I would say if
my life case and fight provesanything I hope it proves to
(50:34):
young people and this isimportant that that life is what
you make it stay in school bekind to one another listen to
your parents and put God firstafter everything you've survived
do you still believe justice ispossible and see this goes this
(50:55):
question goes back to to myfaith I believe everything and I
mean everything is possiblethrough God including justice
absolutely and one one finalquestion what what is your
message for the youth and thepeople listening to this
(51:16):
interview well like I like Isaid I would tell the youth that
you know the the the the thegraveyard and the prison yard is
is full of fictional characters.
(51:38):
I mean not fictional charactersbut characters with uh uh uh uh
fictional names like Scarfaceand Frank White and Nino Browns
and so I would tell I would tellthe youth that to be kind to one
(51:59):
another to to to stay woke staywoke stay in school um uh uh uh
listen to your parents and don'tbe fooled don't don't be fooled
by by by by uh by the moviesthat that helps influence some
(52:27):
of our decisions even by some ofthe the the music you know uh
and just remember that thesemovies and music is just for
entertainment purposes only youknow so uh that that's our
message to to to the youth besafe love one another be kind
and put God first absolutelybaby Sam thank you for your
(52:50):
honesty your strength and yourwillingness to speak on a system
that tried to erase you yourstory is more than a case it's a
mirror held up to the justicesystem in New York to everyone
listening if you care aboutjustice about fairness about the
truth go read the full articleon lftgradio.com and sign the
petition demandingaccountability and a full
(53:11):
reinvestigation stand with babySam the link will be linked into
this interview this is ElliotCarter reporting live from the
gutter where the truth stillmatters good morning and
Godspeed signing out
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