September 16, 2025 • 27 mins
Roger welcomes Dr. Mark Skousen, economist, author and the Doti-Spogli Chair of Free Enterprise at Chapman University, for a conversation about Benjamin Franklin’s enduring wisdom and what it means for today’s debates on liberty, economics and civic life.
They explore Franklin’s defense of wealth and philanthropy, his views on capitalism and free trade, and his complex relationships with fellow Founders such as Washington, Jefferson and Adams. Skousen shares lessons from Franklin on personal finance, diplomacy, optimism in the face of crisis and even the power of compound interest.
The discussion also touches on Franklin’s role in shaping the postal system, his influence on Adam Smith’s “The Wealth of Nations", and why Franklin’s humor and optimism still resonate in divided times.
Skousen is the bestselling author of more than 25 books, including his latest, “The Greatest American: Benjamin Franklin, the World’s Most Versatile Genius.” He has served as president of the Foundation for Economic Education, writes widely on business and finance, and is the founder of FreedomFest, a national conference celebrating liberty, ideas and free enterprise.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today.
I'm your host, roger Ream.
My guest today on the Libertyand Leadership Podcast is Dr
Mark Skousen, a writer andeconomist and the Dodie Spogli
(00:23):
Chair of Free Enterprise atChapman University in Southern
California.
He's a lecturer on businesseconomics and finance, former
president of the Foundation forEconomic Education, an
organization I have a longhistory with as well, and is a
frequent speaker and writer onmany topics around the country.
He writes and speaks for theCato Institute, the Foundation
(00:46):
for Economic Education, theLibertarian Party, the Council
on National Policy and the MontPelerin Society.
He's the editor ofMarksGaussancom and the founder
of Freedom Fest, one of thelargest pro-liberty nonpartisan
conventions held each year inour country.
His latest book is the GreatestAmerican, benjamin Franklin, the
(01:08):
World's Most Versatile Genius,which was published earlier this
year, something I highlyrecommend, and you can find
wherever fine books are sold.
Mark, thank you for joining meon the Liberty and Leadership
podcast.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Another book I don't know whatnumber this is, it's probably
you've written at least a dozenover the years and a lot of
(01:28):
really good books on economicsAnother Franklin book earlier
which we'll touch on.
But you've had a very diversecareer as well, in government,
academia, business, writing andpublishing.
What inspires you to writebooks?
I?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
always want to write a book that nobody else has
really written about.
If somebody has come up with abook that I just put my name on
it and it's virtually the same,I wouldn't be interested in that
.
So I wrote my economicstextbook, economic Logic,
because I didn't like the wayother textbooks were written.
For example, no economicstextbook has a profit and loss
(02:03):
statement, a P&L statement,which is all accountants and
finance.
That's their main focus.
No economics textbook has onthat and I think it's because
most economists are academic andthey don't have any real world
experience with hiring andfiring people and making payroll
and all that sort of thing.
So I've added that to theeconomic logic textbook that I
wrote.
(02:24):
The making of modern economicsis a history of the great
economic thinkers and there's noplot to all the others.
There's just this school, thatschool, this economist.
It's a hodgepodge and I triedto make it into an actual story
with a hero and enemies and hasa good ending and so forth.
So that's my Making of ModernEconomics.
(02:44):
I completed Franklin'sautobiography.
Nobody had ever done thatbefore.
So I try to do things making areal contribution in my writing.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well, and you've done that with these books and
you've touched on some of them.
There was a pile right here onthe set and I've got some off
the set here because they saidif I put them all here, we won't
be able to see us.
That brings me to maybe aquestion I was going to ask you,
which now becomes a challengingquestion perhaps is a biography
of Benjamin Franklin.
Surely people have writtenthose.
(03:13):
So what inspired you to writeabout Ben Franklin and what's
unique about your book?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It's not a biography.
There's a two-page biography tojust give a little summary of
his life and then there's 80short chapters on how to apply
Franklin's life and his work totoday's hot issues and topics
that would be of interest ofpolitics, of economics, personal
finance, healthy living,religion.
(03:38):
There's a variety of topicsdiplomacy and so forth, so you
can read any chapter.
It's a standalone chapterbecause it was originally a
series of columns that I wrotefor Newsmax's magazine called
Franklin Prosperity Report.
It came out every month.
I wrote these columns and thenI've edited them and I've added
some new chapters as well, andit created this book, the
(04:00):
Greatest American.
But I will tell you thatNewsmax did reject one of my
columns.
Is that right?
Yeah, they censored one of thecolumns.
So what do you think the topicwas?
It's in the book, yeah, yeah, Iput it in the book Is this
about Jefferson and sex?
It is on sex and it's Franklin.
I mean Franklin.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, exactly, you could do one on Jefferson.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I saw that in there.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Sex as as well, for sure.
But so it's in the book and Ihad a lot of fun putting this
together.
But it took six or seven yearsto put it together and it's all
applying Franklin to today'sissues of the trade, war,
inflation, taxation, foreignpolicy personal finance all of
these kinds of things.
There's a lot of greatone-liners by Franklin.
He was really the originalone-liner stand-up comedian.
(04:46):
In a lot of ways you have apersonal connection to him,
right.
I've completed Franklin'sautobiography with my wife's
help and she was instrumental inputting as an English professor
of working to me with that.
And then this one is thisseries of columns called the
Greatest American.
So I'm probably a littleprejudiced with the title.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You have some data in there, some quotes from
historians and others who putthem right up there.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, there's a lot of people who really would be
regarded as the greatestAmericans, but Franklin is one
who, as the subtitle says, theworld's most versatile genius.
I came up to 22 careers that hehad, so he's a jack of all
trades and a master of many.
Getting back to my traditionthat my family was related to
Benjamin Franklin through mymother's line, john and I went
back and did the genealogy andfound the missing link, if you
(05:34):
will, because we didn't knowexactly how we were related and
it turned out to be through anillegitimate line, just like a
traditional Franklin perspective.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Well, I think my mother once found my line
related to Benedict Arnold ofall people.
Fortunately, she found anillegitimate line, so I'm
actually not.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It was illegitimate.
It's still the line, it's stillDNA.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But I think it was an adoption.
Well, let's talk about some ofthe 80 practical lessons in your
book, and you may have somefavorites that are particularly
relevant to people today, but Isaw one was that Franklin, his
defense of the rich.
Most people may know his beliefin hard work, but what's his
defense of the rich?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So he described how the poor laws that were passed
by England were passed bywealthy people who wanted to
help out people who were poorand needed a chance to educate
and so forth.
So he was a firm believer inthe capitalist system and he's
really, in many ways, the fatherof American capitalism.
(06:36):
Because how do you encouragepeople, how do you give them
incentives to perform well?
And wealth is a way to do that.
He felt very strongly thatmoney that you made in business
should be used for good purposes.
He would qualify the defense ofwealthy people by suggesting
you need to do good with yourwealth and not just splurge on a
(06:58):
big mansion and being on acruise ship around the world and
so on.
You need to be involved in good, charitable works.
He made this point aboutreligion as well.
So he said at the end of hislife the years go by and the
longer I live, I'm hopeful thatat the end I will be known as
the person who used my moneywell, rather than I simply died
(07:20):
rich.
So usefulness was very much andhe started the Junto.
There's lots of things he didto encourage industry and theft,
but you have to be able to keepthat money.
If it's progressively taxedaway, then what's the incentive
to become wealthy?
But he did feel the wealthy hada responsibility to use their
wealth prudently.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, and I know you wrote in there about his
emphasis on economy and not justbeing spin thrift.
That millionaires go broke,yeah, they can.
And there's a story in thereyou tell about him leaving a
bequest for the cities ofPhiladelphia and Boston of, I
think, a thousand pounds eachand how he directed them to use
it so it would grow.
And do you recall that story?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I have a chapter on the case for compounded interest
.
He heard this story aboutcompounded interest and he said
well, I think at the end of mylife I'm going to test and see
if this skill he's not going tobe able to live for 200 years.
So he gave a thousand pounds toeach of the cities.
This is in his last will andtestament.
Then he said the first hundredyears you simply invested in
(08:22):
bank accounts and you compoundinterest, however much that is.
After a hundred years you willgive out to loans, to artisans
and to people of practicalskills, but they're loans and
they have to be paid back on theinterest.
And so he did this and finallythey dissolved both of these
(08:43):
accounts after 200 years, aswhat he said in his last will.
I think Boston had more.
I mean, they ended up with $13million together between the two
of them.
I think Boston did a better jobof investing than Philadelphia,
but the result demonstratedvery clearly that you could do
quite well with power ofcompounded interest, and you
(09:04):
could do good as well, becauseyou're loaning the money out to
small businesses.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
You have a chapter each on Franklin's relationship
with John Adams, thomasJefferson and George Washington.
Franklin was at both theConstitutional Convention and
the Continental Congress wherethe.
Declaration was drafted.
What was Franklin'srelationship with those other
founders?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well, first of all, with George Washington he was a
very big fan and he said hesingle-handedly took on the
British and he was able tosucceed.
So he was very positive aboutGeorge Washington and his
ability as a general, eventhough he lost a lot of wars and
stuff like that.
So he's been criticized overthe years.
But Franklin was a bigsupporter of George Washington.
(09:51):
In the case of Thomas Jefferson, jefferson took his place as
ambassador to France.
He got along with Jefferson alot.
But he disagreed with Jeffersonon two areas.
One is Jefferson was verycritical of paper money.
He believed in gold and silveronly Franklin was an
inflationist.
He actually wrote a pamphlet infavor of printing up money
because the British denied goldand silver and wouldn't allow
(10:14):
them to mint their own gold andsilver.
They had to use British money.
So Franklin put out a pamphletadvocating the printing of money
and got the contract by thePennsylvania legislature.
So he was the first cronycapitalist as well.
But later in life he recognizedthat inflation was not
necessarily good.
But he was in favor ofcommercial banks.
He loved commercial society.
(10:36):
Jefferson thought farming wasthe best industry that you could
have as an occupation.
Franklin was a city man.
He loved the big cities.
He loved London, he loved Paris.
He thought Philadelphia was asmall town, even though it was
the biggest town in colonialtime periods.
There are these two areas whereFranklin was defending
commercial society, defendingthe banking industry.
(10:58):
He would probably supportHamilton Central Bank.
So he's a pretty modern personin that respect.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And what about with Adams?
They had a less favorable.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes, they got along in the Declaration of
Independence, part of that.
Then they had severedifferences when they got over
to France.
Because Franklin was 70 yearsold when he was sent over to be
the ambassador, they sent overfour or five other commissioners
because they didn't trustFranklin, because he was too old
(11:27):
and they thought he would betoo favorable toward the French.
John Adams, he hated the French.
He didn't get along well at all.
He couldn't raise a singlelivre in funding.
He finally raised some moneywith the Dutch.
So they argued a lot.
Adams thought he didn't take thespies seriously, that he was
disorganized, that he was aheretic, that he was a
(11:49):
nonbeliever, that he was awomanizer you go through the
whole list.
And they did not get along wellat all.
And in fact at one point JohnAdams wrote a letter I think it
was to Thomas Jefferson sayingyeah, the history of America
will be told that Franklin tookhis electric rod and struck the
ground and out plopped GeorgeWashington and together they
(12:11):
completely won the AmericanRevolution without the help of
anyone else.
And so he was really veryenvious of Ben Franklin's
success.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, and Franklin was quite a celebrity in Paris,
right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, yeah, I think there's an envious factor, and
especially with the women.
Franklin got along really wellwith the French society.
You'd go to these salons, whichwere intellectual get-togethers
, and they're run by women.
Franklin's very modern in thatrespect.
He didn't see women as simplysexual objects, but he enjoyed
the intelligence and thewonderful discussions that you
(12:44):
would have with women, includingMadame Brionne, who was a
married woman, and MadameElvisus, who was not, and he
actually proposed marriage toElvisus after his own wife had
passed away and that didn'tdevelop.
But it was really a wonderfulsituation and John Adams as well
as Abigail they were togetheras commissioners and they were
(13:04):
appalled by the behavior of thewomen kissing Franklin and
putting their arms around himand all of the salacious
behavior.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
With the Puritan, massachusetts background.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
They were definitely puritanical.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
On Saturday, before the day we're recording this,
the Postal Service celebratedits 250th anniversary.
I'm wearing a pin for a stampthey've put out in honor of that
anniversary.
It's a reissue of a four-centstamp that once was put out
earlier, with Ben Franklin on it, but he was the first
postmaster.
Tell me a little more aboutthat role.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, he was assistant general manager and
then he was made the firstfull-scale postmaster general
when they declared theirindependence and he put his
son-in-law, richard Bache, incharge at one point in
Philadelphia.
But he was overall.
When he was back in town.
He really developed the postoffice and I actually have a
whole chapter in the GreatestAmerican on him and his
(13:59):
abilities to turn a profit.
I think there's some lessonsthere with the post office and
his efficiency.
It took two weeks to send aletter from Boston all the way
to Philadelphia.
He got it down to three days.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So he really did.
They can't do it now, in threedays.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
And that increased dramatically the volume of mail
and so forth.
And he created the dead letteroffice to try to deal with the
letters that were not sentproperly and he put it in one
particular office so they couldcheck on it and stuff like that.
He did a lot of things thatwere really impressive with the
postal system and the postalroads between Boston and New
York, for example.
You can still take those roadsand they're cleared and they're
(14:39):
available.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Still called the post road.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, the post road Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
It went past the Foundation for Economic
Education's headquarters inIrvington, New York.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
We were on that trail quite frequently, and I should
mention that Franklin has beenhonored equal to him, perhaps a
little better than GeorgeWashington now, in the number of
stamps that have been issuedwith Franklin's image on there.
And I was hopeful.
You know, I have always had myidea that we issue a one penny
stamp with Franklin's image thatsays a penny saved is a penny
(15:08):
earned.
Wouldn't that be a nicepermanent stamp?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, the rumors are they're going to discontinue the
penny.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, that will hurt.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
In a decade, kids won't know what a penny is.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, that's true.
In fact there is a half-centFranklin stamp.
Did you know that issued duringWorld War II.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I recall that in 2020 , I think it was you interviewed
Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
That's the final chapter where I've actually
performed as Benjamin Franklin anumber of times and it's been a
treat.
And I'll tell you one thingI've learned because I've seen a
lot of impersonators ofBenjamin Franklin.
They never have the humor andthe satire that Franklin had.
Like he said, three people cankeep a secret if two are dead.
You know stuff like that.
That's really quite funny.
So I was interviewed maybe 10years ago by somebody who and I
pretended that I was Franklin ingetting the answers and are you
(15:57):
an optimist?
A pessimist about America?
And of course he was alwaysvery optimistic and he firmly
believed in the American dream,which still, if he were alive
today, would be deeply impressedwith the higher standard of
living and the technology.
He'd be the first one to have acell phone and AI and texting
and all that sort of thing.
But he would be appalled by themonstrous national debt which
(16:20):
he felt should be paid off andthe welfare state.
He was not a particularly fanof the welfare state and things
like that, so he'd probably bepretty conservative in that
respect, although I foundRepublicans and Democrats all
love Franklin.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Let me shift gears a little bit.
Say something about FreedomFest.
You've turned that into thismajor conference every year,
drawing us people from aroundthe world.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'll start with a quote from Ben Franklin, who
said it's incredible thequantity of good that a single
man can do if he makes abusiness out of it.
And Freedom Fest is actually afor-profit event, and so we
focus on our customers, ourattendees.
You know a lot of nonprofits.
It's the donors that reallymake the difference, but for us
the focus is on the attendees.
We want to make sure they'rehappy, and so we have 2,000 to
(17:03):
3,000 people who come every year.
The idea of Freedom Fest gotstarted when I was president of
FEE and I thought well, what canwe do to jumpstart the freedom
movement?
It seems like freedom is on thedefense, it's always struggling
and socialism is advancing.
I think it's Thomas Jeffersonthat said liberty is always
receding and government's alwaysexpanding.
So my ideas are like rabbitswho are going in all kinds of
(17:27):
different directions.
And could we all come together,take some time off for three or
four days to learn from eachother, to network and socialize
and celebrate liberty?
So that's been the idea.
We've been doing it for 14 or15 years, started in 2007.
And it's really been a bigsuccess.
And we try to bring in all thefreedom organizations and the
(17:47):
exhibit is John Mackey of WholeFoods calls it the trade show
for liberty.
Steve Forbes is a very big fanand he comes every year and it's
just been great.
It just really stimulates themind with all kinds of debates
and topics.
It's a renaissance gathering ofphilosophy, history, science
and technology, healthy living,politics, economics, finance.
(18:09):
We have a three-day investmentconference.
We have the Anthem FilmFestival that my wife goes on.
You can't believe the hundredsof people who want to see the
latest films, documentaries,narratives and stuff like that.
Shorts features.
We have a comedy show.
We have a libertarian magician.
I have my white mates in twochess problem in the exhibit
(18:29):
hall.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
I've seen that before .
Speaker 2 (18:30):
There's something for everybody to do and nobody's
ever bored at Freedom Fest, soit's once a year.
We're doing it next year in LasVegas at the Caesars Forum
Convention Center right acrossfrom Caesars Palace.
It's July 8th through the 11th.
We're hoping to have anotherbig crowd and some celebrity
speakers.
Kennedy is always our emcee.
(18:51):
Now for the last three or fouryears from Fox.
News.
It's really a lot of fun.
We're hoping to see the fun forAmerican studies out there and
Roger Reeves Maybe do a showthere.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, harkening back to something about Franklin and
Jefferson, you just mentionedJefferson's comment that the
natural progress of things isfor liberty to yield and
government to gain ground.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
That's what it is Great quote.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Which is kind of a form of pessimism, and many of
the framers were pessimisticabout how long this experiment
in liberty would last.
There's a story told aboutFranklin at the very end of the
Continental Congress.
I think it was that he said tothe delegates I've been looking
at the back of GeneralWashington's chair throughout
the convention and there's asunburst painted on it and I've
(19:36):
wondered whether it's a risingsun or a setting sun.
Throughout much of theconvention I thought it must be
a setting sun, but now thatwe've reached agreement on this
document I realize it's a risingsun and he seemed optimistic
about the future, and you saidhe was an optimist.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yes, exactly, that's exactly the story told.
And what's interesting is, youknow, this is the American Eagle
silver dollar that I'm holdinghere and I use it quite
frequently and give it out asgifts and to my students who
take my course and stuff, andthe front is quite a few symbols
.
There's Lady Liberty, whichFranklin would really like, says
In God we Trust.
(20:11):
He was a believer, although hewas not a churchgoer, and it has
the rising sun on there.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
What are your thoughts about where we're
headed in the economy?
I go out to visit a lot of ourdonors, a lot of people when I
travel around the country and Irun into people like I did last
week, I'm just so bullish on.
I think we're booming becauseTrump's bringing all this
business to America.
Companies are building plantshere and then there are others
(20:38):
really gloomy about.
You know, we're going to gointo a deep recession and,
because of trade policy or otherfactors, the spending is out of
control.
Of course, government isreaching a point where it just
can't even fund its basicservices because of interest on
the debt.
The various Social Security,medicare programs how are you
thinking of things will be like,at least in the short run?
Security?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Medicare programs.
How are you thinking of thingswill be like, at least in the
short run?
I have a chapter in theGreatest American on Franklin
and pessimism, because he was anoptimist and he actually refers
to those who are doom andgloomers as croakers, that
they're always croaking andcomplaining and stuff like that.
He tells a story in theautobiography of doom and
gloomer croaker that came alongand told ben franklin listen,
(21:19):
you need to sell all yourproperty because the dearth of
business, a depression, iscoming and you need to sell.
And he said I was really happyto see that 10 years later he
had to pay considerably morewhen he finally decided to buy
real estate.
Franklin was very suspicious andquestioned people who were
overly pessimistic.
(21:40):
It's not to say there weren'ttroubles.
I mean, franklin himself wentthrough two world wars.
He went through depressions, abanking crisis, runaway
inflation in America, and yet hewas still able to survive and
prosper.
Why?
Because he had a diversifiedportfolio of rental properties.
He had three bank accounts, hehad a beautiful gift that he got
(22:01):
from Louis XVI, like 100diamonds or something, and I
mean there's some really coolcollectibles Successful printer
too right.
And he was a very successfulprinter.
So he had a lot of money ingold and silver and stuff like
that, but it was welldiversified so he was not hurt
by all of these events and stuffand he seemed to feel
optimistic.
(22:21):
Quite frequently he said therewas really bad winter in France
one time but then the sun cameout and the flowers started
blooming and I was happy.
I think, even though ourcountry has a lot of problems,
we should never sell Americashort, because we seem to have
that ability to make a comebackall the time and so forth.
Is that a bust of Franklin backthere?
(22:43):
Yes, it is.
Oh my gosh, is that the Houdonbust?
I believe it is it could be andI should tell you, houdon did
busts of Franklin and Jeffersonand Washington as well.
The Houdon bust is in the WhiteHouse and a month or so ago
Donald Trump had a pressconference and he brought in the
Houdon bust of Franklin and hadit there in presence.
(23:04):
I think he was trying tochannel Franklin's unique
ability as a diplomat and usehis skills in all these
negotiations.
So that's my thinking.
Ken Burns in his documentarysaid Franklin was by far
America's greatest diplomat.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Someone mentioned in your book on the greatest
American is Adam Smith.
Was Franklin familiar withSmith and his ideas?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, so I have a chapter called Ben Franklin,
adam Smith's Invisible Hand, andso they've influenced each
other.
Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations.
While he was preparing it,franklin was in London at the
same time for a couple of years.
Franklin says that Adam Smithwould bring in his chapters as
they were writing them and wouldpresent them to these various
(23:49):
clubs that are in London, and hewas one of the readers and he
would give suggestions.
There's a huge section in theWealth of Nations on America as
a very up-and-coming colony.
Adam Smith actually declares.
He says that soon America willbe a great and prominent nation
in the world, which was reallyquite controversial because you
(24:10):
had people like Edward Gibbonwho were very much opposed to
American independence, and, ofcourse, all the government there
.
So Adam Smith was taking achance there.
But I believe he was heavilyinfluenced by Benjamin Franklin
and vice versa.
Adam Smith's free trade and soforth.
(24:31):
Franklin has a lot of strongviews in favor of free trade.
He says no nation was everruined by trade, even those who
are most hurt by it.
Well, that's very differentfrom Donald Trump saying we've
been ripped off all these years.
He would argue thatglobalization has been very
beneficial.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Dr Michael McClendon Often try to remind people of
Adam Smith's influence on theframers, on the founding fathers
, because Hamilton, Madison,Jefferson, a lot of them all
made references to Adam Smith.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
They all read.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
The Wealth of Nations .
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It was a bestselling book.
It sold out within six months.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, my organization is going to be doing a number
of events next year to celebrateAmerica 250.
And we want to make sureeconomics and Adam Smith and
capitalism is the commercialrepublic that we were founded,
as is a big part of that story.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Well, the first hundred years, there's no
question that the governmentdepended largely on tariffs for
their revenues, because, ourgovernment was much smaller than
today.
Well, the government was small,but also the United States and
it's eventually 50 states was afree trade zone.
We didn't import a lotparticularly, and so they made
money from that, but the countryboomed despite the high tariffs
(25:40):
that were in existence in the19th century.
So Donald Trump has that wronghistorically that this was a
golden era where we have veryhigh tariffs.
Well, that's because the USeconomy was much bigger than the
global economy.
Now it's totally different.
Now, 25% of our GDP is inforeign trade and 40% of US-made
(26:01):
cars have components that comefrom outside the United States
foreign components.
So this is a dangerous gamethat Trump is playing, and
hopefully the end result will belower trade barriers.
That's where we're hopeful.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Well, mark, thank you very much for joining me today
on the Liberty and Leadershippodcast.
Congratulations on your bookthe Greatest American.
I encourage anyone listening togo out and buy the book.
It makes a great gift,especially even for young people
, especially, I think, to readthe lessons that you presented
there.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And I'm also arguing that it's a good coffee table
book.
Yeah, instead of being on abookshelf for the nightstand,
put it out there and see whatpeople say about the Greatest
American and have a littledebate.
But the fact of the matter is,I found that Americans are very
unified.
They like Benjamin Franklin,whether you're Republican or
Democrat, and we need that intoday's world that's so divisive
(26:48):
.
So nobody can be embarrassedabout putting this book out and
seeing what people think.
That's for sure.
Amen to that.
Thank you, mark.
Thank you, be free, as Franklinwould say.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(27:24):
things, large and small.
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today.
I'm your host, roger Ream.
My guest today on the Libertyand Leadership Podcast is Dr
Mark Skousen, a writer andeconomist and the Dodie Spogli
(00:23):
Chair of Free Enterprise atChapman University in Southern
California.
He's a lecturer on businesseconomics and finance, former
president of the Foundation forEconomic Education, an
organization I have a longhistory with as well, and is a
frequent speaker and writer onmany topics around the country.
He writes and speaks for theCato Institute, the Foundation
(00:46):
for Economic Education, theLibertarian Party, the Council
on National Policy and the MontPelerin Society.
He's the editor ofMarksGaussancom and the founder
of Freedom Fest, one of thelargest pro-liberty nonpartisan
conventions held each year inour country.
His latest book is the GreatestAmerican, benjamin Franklin, the
(01:08):
World's Most Versatile Genius,which was published earlier this
year, something I highlyrecommend, and you can find
wherever fine books are sold.
Mark, thank you for joining meon the Liberty and Leadership
podcast.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Another book I don't know whatnumber this is, it's probably
you've written at least a dozenover the years and a lot of
(01:28):
really good books on economicsAnother Franklin book earlier
which we'll touch on.
But you've had a very diversecareer as well, in government,
academia, business, writing andpublishing.
What inspires you to writebooks?
I?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
always want to write a book that nobody else has
really written about.
If somebody has come up with abook that I just put my name on
it and it's virtually the same,I wouldn't be interested in that
.
So I wrote my economicstextbook, economic Logic,
because I didn't like the wayother textbooks were written.
For example, no economicstextbook has a profit and loss
(02:03):
statement, a P&L statement,which is all accountants and
finance.
That's their main focus.
No economics textbook has onthat and I think it's because
most economists are academic andthey don't have any real world
experience with hiring andfiring people and making payroll
and all that sort of thing.
So I've added that to theeconomic logic textbook that I
wrote.
(02:24):
The making of modern economicsis a history of the great
economic thinkers and there's noplot to all the others.
There's just this school, thatschool, this economist.
It's a hodgepodge and I triedto make it into an actual story
with a hero and enemies and hasa good ending and so forth.
So that's my Making of ModernEconomics.
(02:44):
I completed Franklin'sautobiography.
Nobody had ever done thatbefore.
So I try to do things making areal contribution in my writing.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well, and you've done that with these books and
you've touched on some of them.
There was a pile right here onthe set and I've got some off
the set here because they saidif I put them all here, we won't
be able to see us.
That brings me to maybe aquestion I was going to ask you,
which now becomes a challengingquestion perhaps is a biography
of Benjamin Franklin.
Surely people have writtenthose.
(03:13):
So what inspired you to writeabout Ben Franklin and what's
unique about your book?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It's not a biography.
There's a two-page biography tojust give a little summary of
his life and then there's 80short chapters on how to apply
Franklin's life and his work totoday's hot issues and topics
that would be of interest ofpolitics, of economics, personal
finance, healthy living,religion.
(03:38):
There's a variety of topicsdiplomacy and so forth, so you
can read any chapter.
It's a standalone chapterbecause it was originally a
series of columns that I wrotefor Newsmax's magazine called
Franklin Prosperity Report.
It came out every month.
I wrote these columns and thenI've edited them and I've added
some new chapters as well, andit created this book, the
(04:00):
Greatest American.
But I will tell you thatNewsmax did reject one of my
columns.
Is that right?
Yeah, they censored one of thecolumns.
So what do you think the topicwas?
It's in the book, yeah, yeah, Iput it in the book Is this
about Jefferson and sex?
It is on sex and it's Franklin.
I mean Franklin.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, exactly, you could do one on Jefferson.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I saw that in there.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Sex as as well, for sure.
But so it's in the book and Ihad a lot of fun putting this
together.
But it took six or seven yearsto put it together and it's all
applying Franklin to today'sissues of the trade, war,
inflation, taxation, foreignpolicy personal finance all of
these kinds of things.
There's a lot of greatone-liners by Franklin.
He was really the originalone-liner stand-up comedian.
(04:46):
In a lot of ways you have apersonal connection to him,
right.
I've completed Franklin'sautobiography with my wife's
help and she was instrumental inputting as an English professor
of working to me with that.
And then this one is thisseries of columns called the
Greatest American.
So I'm probably a littleprejudiced with the title.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You have some data in there, some quotes from
historians and others who putthem right up there.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, there's a lot of people who really would be
regarded as the greatestAmericans, but Franklin is one
who, as the subtitle says, theworld's most versatile genius.
I came up to 22 careers that hehad, so he's a jack of all
trades and a master of many.
Getting back to my traditionthat my family was related to
Benjamin Franklin through mymother's line, john and I went
back and did the genealogy andfound the missing link, if you
(05:34):
will, because we didn't knowexactly how we were related and
it turned out to be through anillegitimate line, just like a
traditional Franklin perspective.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Well, I think my mother once found my line
related to Benedict Arnold ofall people.
Fortunately, she found anillegitimate line, so I'm
actually not.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It was illegitimate.
It's still the line, it's stillDNA.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But I think it was an adoption.
Well, let's talk about some ofthe 80 practical lessons in your
book, and you may have somefavorites that are particularly
relevant to people today, but Isaw one was that Franklin, his
defense of the rich.
Most people may know his beliefin hard work, but what's his
defense of the rich?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
So he described how the poor laws that were passed
by England were passed bywealthy people who wanted to
help out people who were poorand needed a chance to educate
and so forth.
So he was a firm believer inthe capitalist system and he's
really, in many ways, the fatherof American capitalism.
(06:36):
Because how do you encouragepeople, how do you give them
incentives to perform well?
And wealth is a way to do that.
He felt very strongly thatmoney that you made in business
should be used for good purposes.
He would qualify the defense ofwealthy people by suggesting
you need to do good with yourwealth and not just splurge on a
(06:58):
big mansion and being on acruise ship around the world and
so on.
You need to be involved in good, charitable works.
He made this point aboutreligion as well.
So he said at the end of hislife the years go by and the
longer I live, I'm hopeful thatat the end I will be known as
the person who used my moneywell, rather than I simply died
(07:20):
rich.
So usefulness was very much andhe started the Junto.
There's lots of things he didto encourage industry and theft,
but you have to be able to keepthat money.
If it's progressively taxedaway, then what's the incentive
to become wealthy?
But he did feel the wealthy hada responsibility to use their
wealth prudently.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, and I know you wrote in there about his
emphasis on economy and not justbeing spin thrift.
That millionaires go broke,yeah, they can.
And there's a story in thereyou tell about him leaving a
bequest for the cities ofPhiladelphia and Boston of, I
think, a thousand pounds eachand how he directed them to use
it so it would grow.
And do you recall that story?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I have a chapter on the case for compounded interest
.
He heard this story aboutcompounded interest and he said
well, I think at the end of mylife I'm going to test and see
if this skill he's not going tobe able to live for 200 years.
So he gave a thousand pounds toeach of the cities.
This is in his last will andtestament.
Then he said the first hundredyears you simply invested in
(08:22):
bank accounts and you compoundinterest, however much that is.
After a hundred years you willgive out to loans, to artisans
and to people of practicalskills, but they're loans and
they have to be paid back on theinterest.
And so he did this and finallythey dissolved both of these
(08:43):
accounts after 200 years, aswhat he said in his last will.
I think Boston had more.
I mean, they ended up with $13million together between the two
of them.
I think Boston did a better jobof investing than Philadelphia,
but the result demonstratedvery clearly that you could do
quite well with power ofcompounded interest, and you
(09:04):
could do good as well, becauseyou're loaning the money out to
small businesses.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
You have a chapter each on Franklin's relationship
with John Adams, thomasJefferson and George Washington.
Franklin was at both theConstitutional Convention and
the Continental Congress wherethe.
Declaration was drafted.
What was Franklin'srelationship with those other
founders?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well, first of all, with George Washington he was a
very big fan and he said hesingle-handedly took on the
British and he was able tosucceed.
So he was very positive aboutGeorge Washington and his
ability as a general, eventhough he lost a lot of wars and
stuff like that.
So he's been criticized overthe years.
But Franklin was a bigsupporter of George Washington.
(09:51):
In the case of Thomas Jefferson, jefferson took his place as
ambassador to France.
He got along with Jefferson alot.
But he disagreed with Jeffersonon two areas.
One is Jefferson was verycritical of paper money.
He believed in gold and silveronly Franklin was an
inflationist.
He actually wrote a pamphlet infavor of printing up money
because the British denied goldand silver and wouldn't allow
(10:14):
them to mint their own gold andsilver.
They had to use British money.
So Franklin put out a pamphletadvocating the printing of money
and got the contract by thePennsylvania legislature.
So he was the first cronycapitalist as well.
But later in life he recognizedthat inflation was not
necessarily good.
But he was in favor ofcommercial banks.
He loved commercial society.
(10:36):
Jefferson thought farming wasthe best industry that you could
have as an occupation.
Franklin was a city man.
He loved the big cities.
He loved London, he loved Paris.
He thought Philadelphia was asmall town, even though it was
the biggest town in colonialtime periods.
There are these two areas whereFranklin was defending
commercial society, defendingthe banking industry.
(10:58):
He would probably supportHamilton Central Bank.
So he's a pretty modern personin that respect.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And what about with Adams?
They had a less favorable.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yes, they got along in the Declaration of
Independence, part of that.
Then they had severedifferences when they got over
to France.
Because Franklin was 70 yearsold when he was sent over to be
the ambassador, they sent overfour or five other commissioners
because they didn't trustFranklin, because he was too old
(11:27):
and they thought he would betoo favorable toward the French.
John Adams, he hated the French.
He didn't get along well at all.
He couldn't raise a singlelivre in funding.
He finally raised some moneywith the Dutch.
So they argued a lot.
Adams thought he didn't take thespies seriously, that he was
disorganized, that he was aheretic, that he was a
(11:49):
nonbeliever, that he was awomanizer you go through the
whole list.
And they did not get along wellat all.
And in fact at one point JohnAdams wrote a letter I think it
was to Thomas Jefferson sayingyeah, the history of America
will be told that Franklin tookhis electric rod and struck the
ground and out plopped GeorgeWashington and together they
(12:11):
completely won the AmericanRevolution without the help of
anyone else.
And so he was really veryenvious of Ben Franklin's
success.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, and Franklin was quite a celebrity in Paris,
right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, yeah, I think there's an envious factor, and
especially with the women.
Franklin got along really wellwith the French society.
You'd go to these salons, whichwere intellectual get-togethers
, and they're run by women.
Franklin's very modern in thatrespect.
He didn't see women as simplysexual objects, but he enjoyed
the intelligence and thewonderful discussions that you
(12:44):
would have with women, includingMadame Brionne, who was a
married woman, and MadameElvisus, who was not, and he
actually proposed marriage toElvisus after his own wife had
passed away and that didn'tdevelop.
But it was really a wonderfulsituation and John Adams as well
as Abigail they were togetheras commissioners and they were
(13:04):
appalled by the behavior of thewomen kissing Franklin and
putting their arms around himand all of the salacious
behavior.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
With the Puritan, massachusetts background.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
They were definitely puritanical.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
On Saturday, before the day we're recording this,
the Postal Service celebratedits 250th anniversary.
I'm wearing a pin for a stampthey've put out in honor of that
anniversary.
It's a reissue of a four-centstamp that once was put out
earlier, with Ben Franklin on it, but he was the first
postmaster.
Tell me a little more aboutthat role.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, he was assistant general manager and
then he was made the firstfull-scale postmaster general
when they declared theirindependence and he put his
son-in-law, richard Bache, incharge at one point in
Philadelphia.
But he was overall.
When he was back in town.
He really developed the postoffice and I actually have a
whole chapter in the GreatestAmerican on him and his
(13:59):
abilities to turn a profit.
I think there's some lessonsthere with the post office and
his efficiency.
It took two weeks to send aletter from Boston all the way
to Philadelphia.
He got it down to three days.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So he really did.
They can't do it now, in threedays.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
And that increased dramatically the volume of mail
and so forth.
And he created the dead letteroffice to try to deal with the
letters that were not sentproperly and he put it in one
particular office so they couldcheck on it and stuff like that.
He did a lot of things thatwere really impressive with the
postal system and the postalroads between Boston and New
York, for example.
You can still take those roadsand they're cleared and they're
(14:39):
available.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Still called the post road.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, the post road Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
It went past the Foundation for Economic
Education's headquarters inIrvington, New York.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
We were on that trail quite frequently, and I should
mention that Franklin has beenhonored equal to him, perhaps a
little better than GeorgeWashington now, in the number of
stamps that have been issuedwith Franklin's image on there.
And I was hopeful.
You know, I have always had myidea that we issue a one penny
stamp with Franklin's image thatsays a penny saved is a penny
(15:08):
earned.
Wouldn't that be a nicepermanent stamp?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, the rumors are they're going to discontinue the
penny.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, that will hurt.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
In a decade, kids won't know what a penny is.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, that's true.
In fact there is a half-centFranklin stamp.
Did you know that issued duringWorld War II.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I recall that in 2020 , I think it was you interviewed
Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
That's the final chapter where I've actually
performed as Benjamin Franklin anumber of times and it's been a
treat.
And I'll tell you one thingI've learned because I've seen a
lot of impersonators ofBenjamin Franklin.
They never have the humor andthe satire that Franklin had.
Like he said, three people cankeep a secret if two are dead.
You know stuff like that.
That's really quite funny.
So I was interviewed maybe 10years ago by somebody who and I
pretended that I was Franklin ingetting the answers and are you
(15:57):
an optimist?
A pessimist about America?
And of course he was alwaysvery optimistic and he firmly
believed in the American dream,which still, if he were alive
today, would be deeply impressedwith the higher standard of
living and the technology.
He'd be the first one to have acell phone and AI and texting
and all that sort of thing.
But he would be appalled by themonstrous national debt which
(16:20):
he felt should be paid off andthe welfare state.
He was not a particularly fanof the welfare state and things
like that, so he'd probably bepretty conservative in that
respect, although I foundRepublicans and Democrats all
love Franklin.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Let me shift gears a little bit.
Say something about FreedomFest.
You've turned that into thismajor conference every year,
drawing us people from aroundthe world.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'll start with a quote from Ben Franklin, who
said it's incredible thequantity of good that a single
man can do if he makes abusiness out of it.
And Freedom Fest is actually afor-profit event, and so we
focus on our customers, ourattendees.
You know a lot of nonprofits.
It's the donors that reallymake the difference, but for us
the focus is on the attendees.
We want to make sure they'rehappy, and so we have 2,000 to
(17:03):
3,000 people who come every year.
The idea of Freedom Fest gotstarted when I was president of
FEE and I thought well, what canwe do to jumpstart the freedom
movement?
It seems like freedom is on thedefense, it's always struggling
and socialism is advancing.
I think it's Thomas Jeffersonthat said liberty is always
receding and government's alwaysexpanding.
So my ideas are like rabbitswho are going in all kinds of
(17:27):
different directions.
And could we all come together,take some time off for three or
four days to learn from eachother, to network and socialize
and celebrate liberty?
So that's been the idea.
We've been doing it for 14 or15 years, started in 2007.
And it's really been a bigsuccess.
And we try to bring in all thefreedom organizations and the
(17:47):
exhibit is John Mackey of WholeFoods calls it the trade show
for liberty.
Steve Forbes is a very big fanand he comes every year and it's
just been great.
It just really stimulates themind with all kinds of debates
and topics.
It's a renaissance gathering ofphilosophy, history, science
and technology, healthy living,politics, economics, finance.
(18:09):
We have a three-day investmentconference.
We have the Anthem FilmFestival that my wife goes on.
You can't believe the hundredsof people who want to see the
latest films, documentaries,narratives and stuff like that.
Shorts features.
We have a comedy show.
We have a libertarian magician.
I have my white mates in twochess problem in the exhibit
(18:29):
hall.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
I've seen that before .
Speaker 2 (18:30):
There's something for everybody to do and nobody's
ever bored at Freedom Fest, soit's once a year.
We're doing it next year in LasVegas at the Caesars Forum
Convention Center right acrossfrom Caesars Palace.
It's July 8th through the 11th.
We're hoping to have anotherbig crowd and some celebrity
speakers.
Kennedy is always our emcee.
(18:51):
Now for the last three or fouryears from Fox.
News.
It's really a lot of fun.
We're hoping to see the fun forAmerican studies out there and
Roger Reeves Maybe do a showthere.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, harkening back to something about Franklin and
Jefferson, you just mentionedJefferson's comment that the
natural progress of things isfor liberty to yield and
government to gain ground.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
That's what it is Great quote.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Which is kind of a form of pessimism, and many of
the framers were pessimisticabout how long this experiment
in liberty would last.
There's a story told aboutFranklin at the very end of the
Continental Congress.
I think it was that he said tothe delegates I've been looking
at the back of GeneralWashington's chair throughout
the convention and there's asunburst painted on it and I've
(19:36):
wondered whether it's a risingsun or a setting sun.
Throughout much of theconvention I thought it must be
a setting sun, but now thatwe've reached agreement on this
document I realize it's a risingsun and he seemed optimistic
about the future, and you saidhe was an optimist.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yes, exactly, that's exactly the story told.
And what's interesting is, youknow, this is the American Eagle
silver dollar that I'm holdinghere and I use it quite
frequently and give it out asgifts and to my students who
take my course and stuff, andthe front is quite a few symbols
.
There's Lady Liberty, whichFranklin would really like, says
In God we Trust.
(20:11):
He was a believer, although hewas not a churchgoer, and it has
the rising sun on there.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
What are your thoughts about where we're
headed in the economy?
I go out to visit a lot of ourdonors, a lot of people when I
travel around the country and Irun into people like I did last
week, I'm just so bullish on.
I think we're booming becauseTrump's bringing all this
business to America.
Companies are building plantshere and then there are others
(20:38):
really gloomy about.
You know, we're going to gointo a deep recession and,
because of trade policy or otherfactors, the spending is out of
control.
Of course, government isreaching a point where it just
can't even fund its basicservices because of interest on
the debt.
The various Social Security,medicare programs how are you
thinking of things will be like,at least in the short run?
Security?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Medicare programs.
How are you thinking of thingswill be like, at least in the
short run?
I have a chapter in theGreatest American on Franklin
and pessimism, because he was anoptimist and he actually refers
to those who are doom andgloomers as croakers, that
they're always croaking andcomplaining and stuff like that.
He tells a story in theautobiography of doom and
gloomer croaker that came alongand told ben franklin listen,
(21:19):
you need to sell all yourproperty because the dearth of
business, a depression, iscoming and you need to sell.
And he said I was really happyto see that 10 years later he
had to pay considerably morewhen he finally decided to buy
real estate.
Franklin was very suspicious andquestioned people who were
overly pessimistic.
(21:40):
It's not to say there weren'ttroubles.
I mean, franklin himself wentthrough two world wars.
He went through depressions, abanking crisis, runaway
inflation in America, and yet hewas still able to survive and
prosper.
Why?
Because he had a diversifiedportfolio of rental properties.
He had three bank accounts, hehad a beautiful gift that he got
(22:01):
from Louis XVI, like 100diamonds or something, and I
mean there's some really coolcollectibles Successful printer
too right.
And he was a very successfulprinter.
So he had a lot of money ingold and silver and stuff like
that, but it was welldiversified so he was not hurt
by all of these events and stuffand he seemed to feel
optimistic.
(22:21):
Quite frequently he said therewas really bad winter in France
one time but then the sun cameout and the flowers started
blooming and I was happy.
I think, even though ourcountry has a lot of problems,
we should never sell Americashort, because we seem to have
that ability to make a comebackall the time and so forth.
Is that a bust of Franklin backthere?
(22:43):
Yes, it is.
Oh my gosh, is that the Houdonbust?
I believe it is it could be andI should tell you, houdon did
busts of Franklin and Jeffersonand Washington as well.
The Houdon bust is in the WhiteHouse and a month or so ago
Donald Trump had a pressconference and he brought in the
Houdon bust of Franklin and hadit there in presence.
(23:04):
I think he was trying tochannel Franklin's unique
ability as a diplomat and usehis skills in all these
negotiations.
So that's my thinking.
Ken Burns in his documentarysaid Franklin was by far
America's greatest diplomat.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Someone mentioned in your book on the greatest
American is Adam Smith.
Was Franklin familiar withSmith and his ideas?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, so I have a chapter called Ben Franklin,
adam Smith's Invisible Hand, andso they've influenced each
other.
Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations.
While he was preparing it,franklin was in London at the
same time for a couple of years.
Franklin says that Adam Smithwould bring in his chapters as
they were writing them and wouldpresent them to these various
(23:49):
clubs that are in London, and hewas one of the readers and he
would give suggestions.
There's a huge section in theWealth of Nations on America as
a very up-and-coming colony.
Adam Smith actually declares.
He says that soon America willbe a great and prominent nation
in the world, which was reallyquite controversial because you
(24:10):
had people like Edward Gibbonwho were very much opposed to
American independence, and, ofcourse, all the government there
.
So Adam Smith was taking achance there.
But I believe he was heavilyinfluenced by Benjamin Franklin
and vice versa.
Adam Smith's free trade and soforth.
(24:31):
Franklin has a lot of strongviews in favor of free trade.
He says no nation was everruined by trade, even those who
are most hurt by it.
Well, that's very differentfrom Donald Trump saying we've
been ripped off all these years.
He would argue thatglobalization has been very
beneficial.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Dr Michael McClendon Often try to remind people of
Adam Smith's influence on theframers, on the founding fathers
, because Hamilton, Madison,Jefferson, a lot of them all
made references to Adam Smith.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
They all read.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
The Wealth of Nations .
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It was a bestselling book.
It sold out within six months.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, my organization is going to be doing a number
of events next year to celebrateAmerica 250.
And we want to make sureeconomics and Adam Smith and
capitalism is the commercialrepublic that we were founded,
as is a big part of that story.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Well, the first hundred years, there's no
question that the governmentdepended largely on tariffs for
their revenues, because, ourgovernment was much smaller than
today.
Well, the government was small,but also the United States and
it's eventually 50 states was afree trade zone.
We didn't import a lotparticularly, and so they made
money from that, but the countryboomed despite the high tariffs
(25:40):
that were in existence in the19th century.
So Donald Trump has that wronghistorically that this was a
golden era where we have veryhigh tariffs.
Well, that's because the USeconomy was much bigger than the
global economy.
Now it's totally different.
Now, 25% of our GDP is inforeign trade and 40% of US-made
(26:01):
cars have components that comefrom outside the United States
foreign components.
So this is a dangerous gamethat Trump is playing, and
hopefully the end result will belower trade barriers.
That's where we're hopeful.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Well, mark, thank you very much for joining me today
on the Liberty and Leadershippodcast.
Congratulations on your bookthe Greatest American.
I encourage anyone listening togo out and buy the book.
It makes a great gift,especially even for young people
, especially, I think, to readthe lessons that you presented
there.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And I'm also arguing that it's a good coffee table
book.
Yeah, instead of being on abookshelf for the nightstand,
put it out there and see whatpeople say about the Greatest
American and have a littledebate.
But the fact of the matter is,I found that Americans are very
unified.
They like Benjamin Franklin,whether you're Republican or
Democrat, and we need that intoday's world that's so divisive
(26:48):
.
So nobody can be embarrassedabout putting this book out and
seeing what people think.
That's for sure.
Amen to that.
Thank you, mark.
Thank you, be free, as Franklinwould say.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(27:24):
things, large and small.
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.