June 3, 2025 • 29 mins
Roger welcomes Ted Tucker, executive director of the Foundation for Teaching Economics (FTE) and Lisa Chang, director of operations and teacher programs at FTE, to discuss the organization’s 50-year legacy of teaching the economic way of thinking to high school students and teachers. They share the fascinating history of FTE’s founding in the 1970s, the pivotal role of leaders like Milton and Rose Friedman and Gary Walton, and how FTE has evolved to meet the needs of a changing world.
They explore why economic literacy is so critical, yet often neglected today, how FTE’s experiential and activity-based learning approach makes economics accessible, and why an engaging introductory economics course can be life-changing for students. Plus, insights on the difference between economic literacy and financial literacy and the unique power of understanding opportunity costs and trade-offs.
Ted and Lisa reflect on the personal growth they see in students and teachers who attend FTE programs, share stories of alumni success and outline their vision for the next 50 years of economic education.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today, I'm your host, RogerReam.
In 2013, the Fund for AmericanStudies brought into its orbit
the Foundation for TeachingEconomics, known as FTE.
(00:22):
Fte was founded 50 years agothis year and is the gold
standard in teaching economicsat the high school level.
Today, on the Liberty andLeadership podcast, I have two
excellent guests, both of whomoversee the programs of FTE.
First, I'm joined by Ted Tucker, Executive Director for FTE.
Ted brings nearly three decadesof management and marketing
(00:45):
experience to this role.
I'm also joined by Lisa Chang,Director of Operations and
Teacher Programs at FTE.
Lisa manages programs forteachers and students, including
the Economic Forces andAmerican History Program,
Economics for Leaders and avariety of online programs.
Ted and Lisa, thank you so muchfor joining me today.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Happy to be here.
Our pleasure Roger.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well, happy anniversary.
Fte, the Foundation forTeaching Economics, is
celebrating its 50th anniversary50 years of running superb
programs around the world.
Ted, could you give me a briefhistory of FTE and tell me a
little bit about its founding?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
So the FTE originally was founded in 1975.
That's sort of when theofficial documents were signed
creating the foundation.
But it really started a coupleof years earlier when the
original founder, a gentlemannamed Jack Hume, who was an
industrialist out of SanFrancisco, was on vacation in
Hawaii.
While he was out there hangingout at the beach, he ran across
(01:49):
remember this is early 1970s,kind of the height of the hippie
counterculture period and ranacross some young college
students started chatting withthem.
You know Jack was always acurious guy and friendly and he
had a short conversation withthem and he walked away really
kind of shocked on their lack ofunderstanding of economics,
(02:11):
really understanding kind ofwhere the sort of material
wealth that had helped createsuch great prosperity in the
United States in the Westernworld had come from.
They were very much talkingabout, you know, the importance
of sharing and you knowindustrialists were bad and
capitalism was bad, and so Ithink Jack was just really
really shocked and kind ofreally upset about the education
(02:33):
system in the United States andthat's really started getting
him thinking about how can Icorrect that, how can I come up
with a way to supplement or helpbetter educate young people?
So he really started thefoundation in 1975.
And really the focus at thetime of FTE was he thought that
middle school was the place togo, so they started creating
(02:54):
textbooks and film strips, whichwere these I remember those.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, I remember those film strips, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
For middle schools and trying to get this material
adopted into middle schoolsacross the country.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I know there was a shift at some point away from
middle schools and that you hadsome prominent people playing a
role in the organization, likeRose and Milton Friedman, John
Taylor from Stanford and theHoover Institution, even the
current Secretary of Energy,Chris Wright and we can get to
that later perhaps but what wasthat shift that took place in
FTE away from middle schools?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
From about 1975 right until around the late 80s, they
were really still trying topush this middle school strategy
.
And when Jack Hume passed awayin I think it was 1987, his two
sons, george and Jerry Hume,took over the foundation in
terms of running the foundationand one of the things they
started to do was just sort oflook at the idea of are we
(03:50):
effective?
Is what we're doing reallyreaching people?
And after doing a fair amountof research and looking at
metrics, they really realizedthat they weren't having an
impact at all.
Materials weren't being adoptedin schools.
They started casting aroundback with their board members to
try to figure out how can wesort of do things differently,
how do we reinvent the FTE tomake it more effective?
(04:13):
And I think the impetus to areinvention started when talking
with Milton and Rose Friedman,who were on the board really
throughout, the idea that youreally have to identify future
leaders and teach them economics.
And that really started theimpetus of starting to look at
maybe we need to be reachinghigh school.
High school students, you know,really identify them early,
(04:34):
start teaching them economics,the importance of economic
freedom when they're young,before they get to, say, college
, and maybe you know the feelingthey might be brainwashed or
their mindset changed, saycollege, and maybe the feeling
they might be brainwashed ortheir mindset changed.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You know, obviously there's a lot of very poor
economic literacy at the highestlevels of American society,
whether it's in the media.
You see it in government andmany other areas, even in
Hollywood and in movies andliterature.
But, Lisa, how does FT go abouttaking these complex economic
concepts, or at least conceptsthat some people view as very
complex, and then being able tomake them accessible to high
school students and engagingthem in learning at FT programs?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So, as you know, we do student programs but we also
do teacher programs, so we'resort of trying to hit both ends
there and reach the studentsreally to communicate these
concepts.
But one of the best ways thatwe found to introduce these
complex concepts is throughexperiential learning or
hands-on active learning.
(05:36):
That essentially meansincorporating fun activities for
the students that get them outof their seats and demonstrate
the actual concepts of whatthey're getting from regular
lectures.
As an example, we've got agreat activity called the Magic
Markets, which I think you bothare familiar with, obviously.
That just teaches students thattrade is the voluntary exchange
(05:57):
of goods and services.
There's an element of fun andsurprise for the kids and it
teaches them that trade can onlyhappen when trading partners
expect to gain from the exchange.
So they're put into a tradingsimulation that's designed to
illustrate a complex marketplacewith the conditions that
encourage or discourage tradeamong individuals, and it's a
(06:19):
lot of fun to see.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I know the organization's developed dozens
and dozens of those types ofactivities-based ways of
teaching important economicconcepts, and that's great.
I know that.
One thing I guess that perhapsit was Milton Friedman suggested
is that you adopt the Paul Hainapproach to the economic way of
thinking, ted.
How do you incorporate thatinto the FTE programs beside?
(06:44):
You know the activities thatLisa's talking about.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
The economic way of thinking.
You know what Paul Hain wasdoing.
He was an economist slashphilosopher and he really wanted
to understand human behaviorand he ultimately distilled his
idea, the economic way ofthinking, down to just the idea
that all social phenomenaemerges from the choices of
individuals in response toexpected benefits and costs to
(07:08):
themselves.
What we've done is we've takenthat theme that Paul created and
really came up with theseeconomic reasoning propositions
which we think reallyencapsulate the economic way of
thinking.
These are people choose and theindividual choices are the
sources of social outcomes.
Choices impose costs.
People receive benefits andincur costs when they make
(07:30):
decisions.
People respond to incentives inpredictable ways and then
finally, of course, institutionsare the rules of the game that
influence choices.
You know, laws, customs, moralprinciples, superstitions,
cultural values all influencepeople's choices.
We take that and we quit thosepropositions and make them sort
(07:51):
of a theme throughout all of ourprogramming, because we really
want students and teachers, whenthey leave the programs, to be
using this kind of economic wayof thinking and any sort of
decision-making that they needto make, whether a high school
student has to decide do I go tocollege or do I get a job right
out of high school, when you'rein a voting booth and you have
to make a decision about who tovote for.
(08:13):
We just want to make sure thatstudents and people have that
kind of thinking when makingthose important choices.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I suppose the students all incur opportunity
costs when they decide to attenda Economics for Leaders program
in the summer.
Lisa, you know, I know FTE haschanged over the years Ted
talked about the shift frommiddle school to high school,
but you know to keep up withcurrent economic trends and
student interests.
What are some of the newprograms that you've developed
at FTE in the past decade or soto respond to other topics and
(08:46):
other aspects of economics?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So the curriculum has definitely evolved, both in
content and delivery.
As you know, we have a ton oftalented economics educators who
are always ready to incorporatenew topics into our offerings
for both students and teachers.
But I would say that technologyhas also had a very big impact
on how we provide and shareinformation.
For example, right after COVIDhit, we had to pivot and decided
(09:13):
to offer all our programs in avirtual format, so now we
regularly use Zoom, google Docsapps that help us to present and
share more interactive contentduring the programs.
As a side note, when I startedat FTE back in 2007, we were
still using paper applicationsand I was assembling individual
(09:35):
binders for the teachers.
For every program, for eachteacher, we had a very
rudimentary website.
As I recall Ted can correct meon that we may not have even had
a website, so we've had somehuge improvements since then.
As far as your question aboutthe new programs, we've offered
a socialism myths and realitiesprogram for teachers, as well as
(09:58):
an entrepreneurship program,and there's an entrepreneurship
program for students as well.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Ted, maybe you want to speak to the role of longtime
president Gary Walton, who Iknow was someone you've been
close to and he played a pivotalrole in the organization and
still a supporter of what we do.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Gary was really to me an entrepreneur and a visionary
.
Gary was really to me anentrepreneur and a visionary
when he was asked to become thepresident in 1990 of FTE.
He also had great connections.
You know he was connected withMilton Friedman and was able to
really think through when Miltontalked about.
You know you need to teachfuture leaders economics.
Gary was the one that really putin place the FTE flagship
(10:38):
economics for leaders, which wasreally a kind of a combination
of identifying future leaders,bringing them to a one-week
program and then introducingthem to the economic way of
thinking.
The other real strength thatGary had was an incredible
network and an ability toidentify talent.
I mean he went out and was ableto hire, I think, some of the
(10:58):
best curriculum creators in thecountry to work for FTE.
And then, finally, he also wasinstrumental in bringing two
other Nobel laureates on theboard of FTE.
Doug understand why somenations are wealthy and some
(11:20):
nations aren't.
Doug's work really looked atthe role of institutions, and so
we at FTE have reallyincorporated that in a lot of
our materials.
And then, of course, vernonSmith in experimental economics.
You know we started using someof his material on, you know,
game theory as well.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
As a matter of fact, Ted, I have to mention I saw
Vernon Smith last week at adinner here in Washington DC, so
he is going strong at, I think,what age 98?
Yeah, and I know you sent me aphoto of him at one of our
teacher programs in Coloradoearlier this year, I guess it
was, or late last year, which isremarkable.
He's still very productive andyou shared with me kind of the
(11:58):
distinction between trying toimprove economic literacy,
teaching the economic way ofthinking, and the emphasis put
on in some schools on financialliteracy and the distinction
between the two and theimportance of not neglecting
economic literacy at the expenseof, you know, doing the
financial literacy.
Give me some of your thoughtson that, because I think you
made some excellent points inthat, as we just came off of
(12:20):
April being financial literacymonth.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
When you think about it all, schools have scarcity of
time in terms of the number ofperiods.
Opportunity costs right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I think there's only 26 states across the nation that
require economics forgraduation, while there's over
36 or 37 states now that requirefinancial literacy for
graduation.
That's a number that's liketripled in the last 15 years,
and I think that push towardsfinancial literacy is really
driven by the Frank Dodd Actthat had been passed post the
(12:53):
2008 recession.
That act requires banks topromote financial literacy.
The issue or the problem reallyis that financial literacy is
about investing, saving,budgeting, but it's not really
about the decision-making thatcomes with.
When you think about investingor budgeting, you really need to
use economics and the economicway of thinking on marginal
(13:14):
costs, marginal benefit,opportunity costs when you're
making decisions of what to dowith your money.
When I look at the currentadministration's policy on
tariffs and you start hearingfrom people who are saying, oh
well, foreign countries orforeign governments are going to
pay for the tariffs that thecurrent administration wants to
put into place, it really showsyou just how economically
(13:37):
illiterate many Americans are.
They don't understand that atariff is a tax and it's a tax
on imports, which you knowAmericans are going to pay, and
so I think that's where youreally start seeing the issue
that we need more economicliteracy and less financial
literacy.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Now, lisa, you know FTE kind of divides its student
programming through theeconomics for leaders programs
and a whole range of teacherprograms.
You touched on the fact thatthey're both virtual in-person.
I know the in-person can be ashort program, a day-long or
three-day-long or even aweek-long.
What are some of the offerings,and are teachers really looking
to FTE for help?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Oh, absolutely they need support resources.
I've always felt that teachersreally need what we can provide.
As far as economic teaching,it's time, it's curriculum, it's
planning, it's money to planout a semester's worth of
courses because there arecertain topics you want to
(14:43):
address in a certain order, soit makes more sense to the
students.
We have a lot of teachers whoare relatively new to teaching
economics, so those aredefinitely our adult learners.
But we also have teachers whoare experts at economics and
they live and breathe it.
So we have a full gamut ofexpertise in our programs.
But that makes the residentialprograms a huge hit in
(15:06):
particular.
But the virtual programs offera lot of flexibility for
teachers who don't have the timeor resources to travel and
there's an incredible amount ofcollaboration and support and
mentoring going on for all theteachers at the programs.
Another example in ourEconomics for Teachers programs,
where the students and teachersare together, we have our staff
(15:28):
mentor teachers run activitieswith the entire group.
The teacher attendees arewatching so they can see sort of
how exactly it's run in areal-life setting, see the
challenges that might arise, seethe questions that the students
come up with, and that givesthem a lot more confidence to
take that activity back to theirown classrooms and run it.
(15:50):
So we have a lot of teachersupport in a lot of different
ways.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Ted Lisa mentioned the Socialism Myths and
Realities program that FTEundertook the past year and a
half a partnership with theFraser Institute.
Talk a little more about whatthat was all about and what the
outcomes were for that program.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
The Fraser Institute received a grant to really
examine the realities ofsocialism.
I think ultimately was to justshow that even though there's a
large number of young people whosupport socialism, young people
really don't know what thatmeans.
So part of the grant was toreally help define what does
socialism mean to people today?
And then, of course, the otherpart really ultimately was to
(16:31):
show that socialism just doesn'twork.
It's been tried over and overagain and yet the same issues or
themes that cause it to failjust show up everywhere or show
up all the time.
So Frazier put together a seriesof research, of books.
They did some great materialthat can be used in the
classroom.
But they came to FTE because ofour expertise in actually
(16:52):
creating lesson plans anddelivering lessons.
Our part in the grant processreally was to create educational
programming using Frazier'sresearch and all the
supplemental materials.
It was really, I think, a verysuccessful partnership for both
organizations.
It allowed us to really createsome brand new programming.
You know, at least from theevaluations from teachers, it's
(17:14):
clearly it's very effective.
Frazier obviously has greatresources that are available to
anybody.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Now Last few years at least.
I know you've both been workingso hard with your team there to
hit record numbers of students.
You told me the other dayyou're fully enrolled this year
in teacher programs.
It shows, I think, theimportance of the mission that
we're undertaking together thatthere's such a demand among
students and teachers for theprogramming.
(17:40):
How's that like Lisa managingall that process and having Ted
standing behind you therepushing for more students and
more teachers all the time?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
We have an incredible team here, no complaints.
It's exciting, honestly, to beable to sort of hear from the
teachers at how valuable ourprograms are and our resources
are.
You know the interaction that Ido have with students.
I work a lot with ourscholarship students and that's
also amazing because they get somuch out of our programs, not
just the economics content butthe leadership and the lessons
(18:14):
they take home about themselves.
There's a lot of personalgrowth that goes on during the
student programs and that'spretty invaluable.
The parents also.
I hear from parents as well andTed can attest to this too who
just say that their kids arealmost different individuals for
the better after they go to anEFL program or one of our other
(18:34):
student programs.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, Roger, and when we were thinking about,
obviously, this podcast, one ofthe things that I remembered was
I think it was your collegeroommate who had sent his
daughter you'd shared a notethat he had sent to you, which
was something along the lines ofhe got an email midway through
the program from his daughtersaying you know, this is the
best experience I've had in mylife.
Thank you, dad.
(18:55):
And I just thought, wow, that'sjust a lot of power that we're
able to have, or influence we'reable to have in a positive way
on young people.
And, as Lisa said, we see thatall the time and I think that's
you know, when you're gettingfeedback like that from parents,
you know we're doing somethingright.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
You know he also sent one of his sons at least one of
his sons I know who turned hisFTE experience into his college
essay when he applied to college.
So that kind of impact is veryrewarding to hear that and I
know you get a lot of thatfeedback.
Sometimes hard to translate allthat in a way that we
communicate that to oursupporters, but it's definitely
impactful programs and you hearthat from teachers and students
(19:35):
and parents.
Are there any particularsuccess stories that you can
call to mind just on the spothere?
You know I've heard from peoplelater in life who I've stumbled
upon and mentioned theFoundation for Teaching
Economics is now part of theFund for American Studies.
We have the strategicpartnership together and they
say, oh, I did an FTE programand we have students coming to
our summer programs who've doneFTE programs when they're in
(19:58):
high school.
Fte certainly has a lot ofalumni out there.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
There's a very early alum who did our programs in the
early, I would say, mid-90s.
Now you know she's VanessaCountryman.
She's now SEC secretary.
She got a law degree fromUniversity of Chicago, a
master's in philosophy fromOxford, and actually worked for
us as a camp counselor forseveral years before kind of
moving on.
And so you know, I think ofsomeone like that and there's
(20:24):
more people like her that areout there.
I know you know a greatcolleague.
Her name is Maddie Overturf.
She is now a news anchor inDelaware.
I mean it kind of shows you thebreadth of where students go,
the skills that we offer, theeconomic way of thinking these
students are able to take intowhatever field they want to go
to.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Someone who did our teacher program I know, who was
elected to the state senate inIllinois and he has come back as
a teacher at FTE and nowteaching other teachers.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, Tom Rooney, he did FTE programming, like you
said.
Yeah, became a stateassemblyman in the state of
Illinois and he's one of ourhighly skilled mentor teachers.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And Tom will be at one of our summer programs.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Oh, wonderful, wonderful.
Yeah, you do assemble a greatteam of people, is it 28 high
school student programs thissummer, ted.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
For this summer it will be 30.
We'll be running 30 programs,so 25 of them will be in person
and then five of them arevirtual.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And that's a lot of staffing you have to pull
together for all that, includingnot just instructors but those
counselors, as you say, thatstay in the dorms and chaperone,
and these are all held oncollege campuses.
That's been the approach FT'staken is to look for college
campuses.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
We've done the programming in the summer,
obviously because that's whenstudents are free and it's also
when universities typically willhave space available to lease.
We go to different campusesaround the United States and you
know, lease meeting space,lease dorm space, and we always
try to look at universities thatare easy for students to get to
, universities that might bepopular with the students and
(21:57):
families and, obviously,universities that are easy to
work with for our type ofprogramming.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
If there were kind of one lesson in economics you
think every student should leavethe program with, or perhaps
every American should have, youknow, what would that be?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
My feeling always is that voluntary trade creates
wealth.
People should have the choiceto trade with whoever they would
like to trade with.
And when I talk about trade, ofcourse, in our society now we
would be trading money for anitem that they would like, or a
product or a service that youstart having barriers put in
(22:34):
place to that ability.
It affects people's standard ofliving, whether that barrier is
by governments, through tariffs, or companies and monopolistic
behavior.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I would say, Roger, I think just gaining a better
understanding of basic economicsis just critical across the
board because it affects so manyreal-life, real-world decisions
for people.
But if you wanted me to narrowit down a bit, I don't know,
there's something about the ideaof opportunity cost or
cost-benefit analysis that Ithink is an important concept
(23:07):
for people to understand.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I was just thinking about what I would say, and it's
related to what you said, Lisa.
I like TEDs a lot, but MiltonFriedman said there's no such
thing as a free lunch and that's, I think, a way of saying
opportunity costs.
But you know, whatevergovernment does, in particular a
person does, you know there's acost attached to it of
something foregone.
And I think Thomas Sowell saidis there are no solutions, there
are only trade-offs, becauseyou're foregoing something if
(23:32):
you decide to do something.
So if people would incorporatethese lessons into their heads,
like we do with the studentscoming to our programs, I think
we'd have a lot sounder publicpolicy and economic policy.
I had Bob Lawson on the podcastrecently.
Ted, you presented our GaryWalton Prize for Excellence in
Economic Education to Bob at ourconference in Naples, Florida,
(23:54):
in March.
He's doing great work at SMU,but something else he does with
the Fraser Institute is theIndex of Economic Freedom, which
shows the freest countries inthe world.
It ranks them, of course, fromone to North Korea.
I think it's a great teachingtool.
Is that something you use inthe FTE programs?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
We do.
We really value that index.
We use it in our studentprograms, our economics for
leaders programs.
We use it also in many of ourdifferent teacher programs as
well, because it does such awonderful job illustrating the
relationship between economicfreedom and human prosperity.
And it's very easy to see thatnations that are economically
(24:33):
free are also the nations thathave the most wealth.
Their societies prosper more.
They have the most wealth.
Their societies prosper more.
They have lower infantmortality, they have longer
lifespans, basically higherstandards of living, and it's
very powerful in demonstratingthat Countries that are not
economically free North Korea isone you mentioned, Venezuela,
Cuba their standards of livingare so much lower.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Their life expectancies, infant mortality,
are just not as good ascountries that embrace economic
freedom, students, tfas havingprograms for college students
and young professionals, bothputting a strong emphasis on the
importance of learning aboutthe economic way of thinking.
I think we're filling a voidthat would just be so large if
it weren't for our programmingthat we're doing in this space.
So I don't want to keep you onthis podcast too long, because I
(25:29):
know you're still busyrecruiting students for the
summer and lining up all thedetails.
I know you'll be around thecountry, from Yale to Berkeley,
from Rice to Ohio State.
Just a couple of things beforewe go.
What about the internationaldimension?
Will you have manyinternational students
participating, either in person,because they're over here on
exchange programs, or throughthe virtual programs?
(25:51):
Is there an interest amonginternational students in FTE
programs?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
That's a great question, roger, and I know Lisa
can jump in as well.
But yes, we do see virtualprograms.
We see probably a good 10 to 15percent of the participants are
students in India, japan,europe, south America who are
participating in the program andwe're always fascinated because
our virtual programs aresynchronous programs, so they
(26:18):
start at 8 am Eastern time andrun to about 3 pm Eastern time.
So some of these students in,say, south Korea, are getting up
at the middle of the night andsitting through five hours of
class because they really valueit and for our in-person
programming I think the numbersare as great.
But yes, we're seeinginternational students flying in
(26:39):
, whether from India or China orEurope, to spend a week on
these college campuses.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Last, thing is, if I were someone coming to you today
to say I've got a milliondollars I want to invest in
economic education, could youuse it?
Are there things that are onyour wish list you'd like to be
doing, that you're unable to doI?
Speaker 3 (26:58):
would love to expand our student programming.
My dream would be able to doour economics for leaders in
every state of the union andrecruit the top students from
each state to sit through ourprogram.
That way, when they go out andthey do become future leaders
within their own states or moveinto government or business, we
would have leaders in everystate that understand economics,
(27:20):
understand the economicthinking, and we just would get
better decisions, yeah, and Iguess you're in close to half
now, so a ways to go, but it's adoable goal Anything you can
add to that, lisa.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
That would be amazing .
You know I would agree with Ted.
But you know, increasing thereach of our teacher programs,
obviously for me, you knowwhether it's just increasing the
number.
New curriculum, there's so manyplaces where that would be so
valuable and in terms ofthinking about students, there's
just a lot of students that wearen't reaching as much.
You know, it'd be great to dooutreach, to get in-person sort
(27:54):
of visits, so to speak, torecruit students from around the
country.
We're just limited right nowwith what we can do to recruit,
but we're doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I'd like to test the Economics for Leaders program on
adult audience as well.
You know where you could get 30journalists in a room and do a
day or two of the kinds ofactivities-based learning and
teaching of economic conceptswith some of our top faculty or,
obviously, politicians or youngpolitical leaders or people in
think tanks.
I notice economic literacy is aproblem in think tanks too.
(28:26):
Even some of the traditional,more market-oriented think tanks
have students now who come towork there who haven't really
had any economics, and sothere's a big need to do more.
But thank you both, ted andLisa, for all you're doing now
and your team at FTE, youroffices in Davis, california.
I look forward to seeing someof the programs this summer
around the country and continueto work with you to accomplish
(28:49):
our mission.
Ted, lisa, thank you forjoining me on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Thanks for having us, Roger.
It is a wonderful opportunityto be here and talk to you.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Thank you, roger, for hosting, we really appreciate
it.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(29:27):
things, large and small.
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today, I'm your host, RogerReam.
In 2013, the Fund for AmericanStudies brought into its orbit
the Foundation for TeachingEconomics, known as FTE.
(00:22):
Fte was founded 50 years agothis year and is the gold
standard in teaching economicsat the high school level.
Today, on the Liberty andLeadership podcast, I have two
excellent guests, both of whomoversee the programs of FTE.
First, I'm joined by Ted Tucker, Executive Director for FTE.
Ted brings nearly three decadesof management and marketing
(00:45):
experience to this role.
I'm also joined by Lisa Chang,Director of Operations and
Teacher Programs at FTE.
Lisa manages programs forteachers and students, including
the Economic Forces andAmerican History Program,
Economics for Leaders and avariety of online programs.
Ted and Lisa, thank you so muchfor joining me today.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Happy to be here.
Our pleasure Roger.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well, happy anniversary.
Fte, the Foundation forTeaching Economics, is
celebrating its 50th anniversary50 years of running superb
programs around the world.
Ted, could you give me a briefhistory of FTE and tell me a
little bit about its founding?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
So the FTE originally was founded in 1975.
That's sort of when theofficial documents were signed
creating the foundation.
But it really started a coupleof years earlier when the
original founder, a gentlemannamed Jack Hume, who was an
industrialist out of SanFrancisco, was on vacation in
Hawaii.
While he was out there hangingout at the beach, he ran across
(01:49):
remember this is early 1970s,kind of the height of the hippie
counterculture period and ranacross some young college
students started chatting withthem.
You know Jack was always acurious guy and friendly and he
had a short conversation withthem and he walked away really
kind of shocked on their lack ofunderstanding of economics,
(02:11):
really understanding kind ofwhere the sort of material
wealth that had helped createsuch great prosperity in the
United States in the Westernworld had come from.
They were very much talkingabout, you know, the importance
of sharing and you knowindustrialists were bad and
capitalism was bad, and so Ithink Jack was just really
really shocked and kind ofreally upset about the education
(02:33):
system in the United States andthat's really started getting
him thinking about how can Icorrect that, how can I come up
with a way to supplement or helpbetter educate young people?
So he really started thefoundation in 1975.
And really the focus at thetime of FTE was he thought that
middle school was the place togo, so they started creating
(02:54):
textbooks and film strips, whichwere these I remember those.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, I remember those film strips, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
For middle schools and trying to get this material
adopted into middle schoolsacross the country.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I know there was a shift at some point away from
middle schools and that you hadsome prominent people playing a
role in the organization, likeRose and Milton Friedman, John
Taylor from Stanford and theHoover Institution, even the
current Secretary of Energy,Chris Wright and we can get to
that later perhaps but what wasthat shift that took place in
FTE away from middle schools?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
From about 1975 right until around the late 80s, they
were really still trying topush this middle school strategy
.
And when Jack Hume passed awayin I think it was 1987, his two
sons, george and Jerry Hume,took over the foundation in
terms of running the foundationand one of the things they
started to do was just sort oflook at the idea of are we
(03:50):
effective?
Is what we're doing reallyreaching people?
And after doing a fair amountof research and looking at
metrics, they really realizedthat they weren't having an
impact at all.
Materials weren't being adoptedin schools.
They started casting aroundback with their board members to
try to figure out how can wesort of do things differently,
how do we reinvent the FTE tomake it more effective?
(04:13):
And I think the impetus to areinvention started when talking
with Milton and Rose Friedman,who were on the board really
throughout, the idea that youreally have to identify future
leaders and teach them economics.
And that really started theimpetus of starting to look at
maybe we need to be reachinghigh school.
High school students, you know,really identify them early,
(04:34):
start teaching them economics,the importance of economic
freedom when they're young,before they get to, say, college
, and maybe you know the feelingthey might be brainwashed or
their mindset changed, saycollege, and maybe the feeling
they might be brainwashed ortheir mindset changed.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You know, obviously there's a lot of very poor
economic literacy at the highestlevels of American society,
whether it's in the media.
You see it in government andmany other areas, even in
Hollywood and in movies andliterature.
But, Lisa, how does FT go abouttaking these complex economic
concepts, or at least conceptsthat some people view as very
complex, and then being able tomake them accessible to high
school students and engagingthem in learning at FT programs?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So, as you know, we do student programs but we also
do teacher programs, so we'resort of trying to hit both ends
there and reach the studentsreally to communicate these
concepts.
But one of the best ways thatwe found to introduce these
complex concepts is throughexperiential learning or
hands-on active learning.
(05:36):
That essentially meansincorporating fun activities for
the students that get them outof their seats and demonstrate
the actual concepts of whatthey're getting from regular
lectures.
As an example, we've got agreat activity called the Magic
Markets, which I think you bothare familiar with, obviously.
That just teaches students thattrade is the voluntary exchange
(05:57):
of goods and services.
There's an element of fun andsurprise for the kids and it
teaches them that trade can onlyhappen when trading partners
expect to gain from the exchange.
So they're put into a tradingsimulation that's designed to
illustrate a complex marketplacewith the conditions that
encourage or discourage tradeamong individuals, and it's a
(06:19):
lot of fun to see.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I know the organization's developed dozens
and dozens of those types ofactivities-based ways of
teaching important economicconcepts, and that's great.
I know that.
One thing I guess that perhapsit was Milton Friedman suggested
is that you adopt the Paul Hainapproach to the economic way of
thinking, ted.
How do you incorporate thatinto the FTE programs beside?
(06:44):
You know the activities thatLisa's talking about.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
The economic way of thinking.
You know what Paul Hain wasdoing.
He was an economist slashphilosopher and he really wanted
to understand human behaviorand he ultimately distilled his
idea, the economic way ofthinking, down to just the idea
that all social phenomenaemerges from the choices of
individuals in response toexpected benefits and costs to
(07:08):
themselves.
What we've done is we've takenthat theme that Paul created and
really came up with theseeconomic reasoning propositions
which we think reallyencapsulate the economic way of
thinking.
These are people choose and theindividual choices are the
sources of social outcomes.
Choices impose costs.
People receive benefits andincur costs when they make
(07:30):
decisions.
People respond to incentives inpredictable ways and then
finally, of course, institutionsare the rules of the game that
influence choices.
You know, laws, customs, moralprinciples, superstitions,
cultural values all influencepeople's choices.
We take that and we quit thosepropositions and make them sort
(07:51):
of a theme throughout all of ourprogramming, because we really
want students and teachers, whenthey leave the programs, to be
using this kind of economic wayof thinking and any sort of
decision-making that they needto make, whether a high school
student has to decide do I go tocollege or do I get a job right
out of high school, when you'rein a voting booth and you have
to make a decision about who tovote for.
(08:13):
We just want to make sure thatstudents and people have that
kind of thinking when makingthose important choices.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I suppose the students all incur opportunity
costs when they decide to attenda Economics for Leaders program
in the summer.
Lisa, you know, I know FTE haschanged over the years Ted
talked about the shift frommiddle school to high school,
but you know to keep up withcurrent economic trends and
student interests.
What are some of the newprograms that you've developed
at FTE in the past decade or soto respond to other topics and
(08:46):
other aspects of economics?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
So the curriculum has definitely evolved, both in
content and delivery.
As you know, we have a ton oftalented economics educators who
are always ready to incorporatenew topics into our offerings
for both students and teachers.
But I would say that technologyhas also had a very big impact
on how we provide and shareinformation.
For example, right after COVIDhit, we had to pivot and decided
(09:13):
to offer all our programs in avirtual format, so now we
regularly use Zoom, google Docsapps that help us to present and
share more interactive contentduring the programs.
As a side note, when I startedat FTE back in 2007, we were
still using paper applicationsand I was assembling individual
(09:35):
binders for the teachers.
For every program, for eachteacher, we had a very
rudimentary website.
As I recall Ted can correct meon that we may not have even had
a website, so we've had somehuge improvements since then.
As far as your question aboutthe new programs, we've offered
a socialism myths and realitiesprogram for teachers, as well as
(09:58):
an entrepreneurship program,and there's an entrepreneurship
program for students as well.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Ted, maybe you want to speak to the role of longtime
president Gary Walton, who Iknow was someone you've been
close to and he played a pivotalrole in the organization and
still a supporter of what we do.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Gary was really to me an entrepreneur and a visionary
.
Gary was really to me anentrepreneur and a visionary
when he was asked to become thepresident in 1990 of FTE.
He also had great connections.
You know he was connected withMilton Friedman and was able to
really think through when Miltontalked about.
You know you need to teachfuture leaders economics.
Gary was the one that really putin place the FTE flagship
(10:38):
economics for leaders, which wasreally a kind of a combination
of identifying future leaders,bringing them to a one-week
program and then introducingthem to the economic way of
thinking.
The other real strength thatGary had was an incredible
network and an ability toidentify talent.
I mean he went out and was ableto hire, I think, some of the
(10:58):
best curriculum creators in thecountry to work for FTE.
And then, finally, he also wasinstrumental in bringing two
other Nobel laureates on theboard of FTE.
Doug understand why somenations are wealthy and some
(11:20):
nations aren't.
Doug's work really looked atthe role of institutions, and so
we at FTE have reallyincorporated that in a lot of
our materials.
And then, of course, vernonSmith in experimental economics.
You know we started using someof his material on, you know,
game theory as well.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
As a matter of fact, Ted, I have to mention I saw
Vernon Smith last week at adinner here in Washington DC, so
he is going strong at, I think,what age 98?
Yeah, and I know you sent me aphoto of him at one of our
teacher programs in Coloradoearlier this year, I guess it
was, or late last year, which isremarkable.
He's still very productive andyou shared with me kind of the
(11:58):
distinction between trying toimprove economic literacy,
teaching the economic way ofthinking, and the emphasis put
on in some schools on financialliteracy and the distinction
between the two and theimportance of not neglecting
economic literacy at the expenseof, you know, doing the
financial literacy.
Give me some of your thoughtson that, because I think you
made some excellent points inthat, as we just came off of
(12:20):
April being financial literacymonth.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
When you think about it all, schools have scarcity of
time in terms of the number ofperiods.
Opportunity costs right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I think there's only 26 states across the nation that
require economics forgraduation, while there's over
36 or 37 states now that requirefinancial literacy for
graduation.
That's a number that's liketripled in the last 15 years,
and I think that push towardsfinancial literacy is really
driven by the Frank Dodd Actthat had been passed post the
(12:53):
2008 recession.
That act requires banks topromote financial literacy.
The issue or the problem reallyis that financial literacy is
about investing, saving,budgeting, but it's not really
about the decision-making thatcomes with.
When you think about investingor budgeting, you really need to
use economics and the economicway of thinking on marginal
(13:14):
costs, marginal benefit,opportunity costs when you're
making decisions of what to dowith your money.
When I look at the currentadministration's policy on
tariffs and you start hearingfrom people who are saying, oh
well, foreign countries orforeign governments are going to
pay for the tariffs that thecurrent administration wants to
put into place, it really showsyou just how economically
(13:37):
illiterate many Americans are.
They don't understand that atariff is a tax and it's a tax
on imports, which you knowAmericans are going to pay, and
so I think that's where youreally start seeing the issue
that we need more economicliteracy and less financial
literacy.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Now, lisa, you know FTE kind of divides its student
programming through theeconomics for leaders programs
and a whole range of teacherprograms.
You touched on the fact thatthey're both virtual in-person.
I know the in-person can be ashort program, a day-long or
three-day-long or even aweek-long.
What are some of the offerings,and are teachers really looking
to FTE for help?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Oh, absolutely they need support resources.
I've always felt that teachersreally need what we can provide.
As far as economic teaching,it's time, it's curriculum, it's
planning, it's money to planout a semester's worth of
courses because there arecertain topics you want to
(14:43):
address in a certain order, soit makes more sense to the
students.
We have a lot of teachers whoare relatively new to teaching
economics, so those aredefinitely our adult learners.
But we also have teachers whoare experts at economics and
they live and breathe it.
So we have a full gamut ofexpertise in our programs.
But that makes the residentialprograms a huge hit in
(15:06):
particular.
But the virtual programs offera lot of flexibility for
teachers who don't have the timeor resources to travel and
there's an incredible amount ofcollaboration and support and
mentoring going on for all theteachers at the programs.
Another example in ourEconomics for Teachers programs,
where the students and teachersare together, we have our staff
(15:28):
mentor teachers run activitieswith the entire group.
The teacher attendees arewatching so they can see sort of
how exactly it's run in areal-life setting, see the
challenges that might arise, seethe questions that the students
come up with, and that givesthem a lot more confidence to
take that activity back to theirown classrooms and run it.
(15:50):
So we have a lot of teachersupport in a lot of different
ways.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Ted Lisa mentioned the Socialism Myths and
Realities program that FTEundertook the past year and a
half a partnership with theFraser Institute.
Talk a little more about whatthat was all about and what the
outcomes were for that program.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
The Fraser Institute received a grant to really
examine the realities ofsocialism.
I think ultimately was to justshow that even though there's a
large number of young people whosupport socialism, young people
really don't know what thatmeans.
So part of the grant was toreally help define what does
socialism mean to people today?
And then, of course, the otherpart really ultimately was to
(16:31):
show that socialism just doesn'twork.
It's been tried over and overagain and yet the same issues or
themes that cause it to failjust show up everywhere or show
up all the time.
So Frazier put together a seriesof research, of books.
They did some great materialthat can be used in the
classroom.
But they came to FTE because ofour expertise in actually
(16:52):
creating lesson plans anddelivering lessons.
Our part in the grant processreally was to create educational
programming using Frazier'sresearch and all the
supplemental materials.
It was really, I think, a verysuccessful partnership for both
organizations.
It allowed us to really createsome brand new programming.
You know, at least from theevaluations from teachers, it's
(17:14):
clearly it's very effective.
Frazier obviously has greatresources that are available to
anybody.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Now Last few years at least.
I know you've both been workingso hard with your team there to
hit record numbers of students.
You told me the other dayyou're fully enrolled this year
in teacher programs.
It shows, I think, theimportance of the mission that
we're undertaking together thatthere's such a demand among
students and teachers for theprogramming.
(17:40):
How's that like Lisa managingall that process and having Ted
standing behind you therepushing for more students and
more teachers all the time?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
We have an incredible team here, no complaints.
It's exciting, honestly, to beable to sort of hear from the
teachers at how valuable ourprograms are and our resources
are.
You know the interaction that Ido have with students.
I work a lot with ourscholarship students and that's
also amazing because they get somuch out of our programs, not
just the economics content butthe leadership and the lessons
(18:14):
they take home about themselves.
There's a lot of personalgrowth that goes on during the
student programs and that'spretty invaluable.
The parents also.
I hear from parents as well andTed can attest to this too who
just say that their kids arealmost different individuals for
the better after they go to anEFL program or one of our other
(18:34):
student programs.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, Roger, and when we were thinking about,
obviously, this podcast, one ofthe things that I remembered was
I think it was your collegeroommate who had sent his
daughter you'd shared a notethat he had sent to you, which
was something along the lines ofhe got an email midway through
the program from his daughtersaying you know, this is the
best experience I've had in mylife.
Thank you, dad.
(18:55):
And I just thought, wow, that'sjust a lot of power that we're
able to have, or influence we'reable to have in a positive way
on young people.
And, as Lisa said, we see thatall the time and I think that's
you know, when you're gettingfeedback like that from parents,
you know we're doing somethingright.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
You know he also sent one of his sons at least one of
his sons I know who turned hisFTE experience into his college
essay when he applied to college.
So that kind of impact is veryrewarding to hear that and I
know you get a lot of thatfeedback.
Sometimes hard to translate allthat in a way that we
communicate that to oursupporters, but it's definitely
impactful programs and you hearthat from teachers and students
(19:35):
and parents.
Are there any particularsuccess stories that you can
call to mind just on the spothere?
You know I've heard from peoplelater in life who I've stumbled
upon and mentioned theFoundation for Teaching
Economics is now part of theFund for American Studies.
We have the strategicpartnership together and they
say, oh, I did an FTE programand we have students coming to
our summer programs who've doneFTE programs when they're in
(19:58):
high school.
Fte certainly has a lot ofalumni out there.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
There's a very early alum who did our programs in the
early, I would say, mid-90s.
Now you know she's VanessaCountryman.
She's now SEC secretary.
She got a law degree fromUniversity of Chicago, a
master's in philosophy fromOxford, and actually worked for
us as a camp counselor forseveral years before kind of
moving on.
And so you know, I think ofsomeone like that and there's
(20:24):
more people like her that areout there.
I know you know a greatcolleague.
Her name is Maddie Overturf.
She is now a news anchor inDelaware.
I mean it kind of shows you thebreadth of where students go,
the skills that we offer, theeconomic way of thinking these
students are able to take intowhatever field they want to go
to.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Someone who did our teacher program I know, who was
elected to the state senate inIllinois and he has come back as
a teacher at FTE and nowteaching other teachers.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, Tom Rooney, he did FTE programming, like you
said.
Yeah, became a stateassemblyman in the state of
Illinois and he's one of ourhighly skilled mentor teachers.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
And Tom will be at one of our summer programs.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Oh, wonderful, wonderful.
Yeah, you do assemble a greatteam of people, is it 28 high
school student programs thissummer, ted.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
For this summer it will be 30.
We'll be running 30 programs,so 25 of them will be in person
and then five of them arevirtual.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And that's a lot of staffing you have to pull
together for all that, includingnot just instructors but those
counselors, as you say, thatstay in the dorms and chaperone,
and these are all held oncollege campuses.
That's been the approach FT'staken is to look for college
campuses.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
We've done the programming in the summer,
obviously because that's whenstudents are free and it's also
when universities typically willhave space available to lease.
We go to different campusesaround the United States and you
know, lease meeting space,lease dorm space, and we always
try to look at universities thatare easy for students to get to
, universities that might bepopular with the students and
(21:57):
families and, obviously,universities that are easy to
work with for our type ofprogramming.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
If there were kind of one lesson in economics you
think every student should leavethe program with, or perhaps
every American should have, youknow, what would that be?
Speaker 3 (22:12):
My feeling always is that voluntary trade creates
wealth.
People should have the choiceto trade with whoever they would
like to trade with.
And when I talk about trade, ofcourse, in our society now we
would be trading money for anitem that they would like, or a
product or a service that youstart having barriers put in
(22:34):
place to that ability.
It affects people's standard ofliving, whether that barrier is
by governments, through tariffs, or companies and monopolistic
behavior.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I would say, Roger, I think just gaining a better
understanding of basic economicsis just critical across the
board because it affects so manyreal-life, real-world decisions
for people.
But if you wanted me to narrowit down a bit, I don't know,
there's something about the ideaof opportunity cost or
cost-benefit analysis that Ithink is an important concept
(23:07):
for people to understand.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
I was just thinking about what I would say, and it's
related to what you said, Lisa.
I like TEDs a lot, but MiltonFriedman said there's no such
thing as a free lunch and that's, I think, a way of saying
opportunity costs.
But you know, whatevergovernment does, in particular a
person does, you know there's acost attached to it of
something foregone.
And I think Thomas Sowell saidis there are no solutions, there
are only trade-offs, becauseyou're foregoing something if
(23:32):
you decide to do something.
So if people would incorporatethese lessons into their heads,
like we do with the studentscoming to our programs, I think
we'd have a lot sounder publicpolicy and economic policy.
I had Bob Lawson on the podcastrecently.
Ted, you presented our GaryWalton Prize for Excellence in
Economic Education to Bob at ourconference in Naples, Florida,
(23:54):
in March.
He's doing great work at SMU,but something else he does with
the Fraser Institute is theIndex of Economic Freedom, which
shows the freest countries inthe world.
It ranks them, of course, fromone to North Korea.
I think it's a great teachingtool.
Is that something you use inthe FTE programs?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
We do.
We really value that index.
We use it in our studentprograms, our economics for
leaders programs.
We use it also in many of ourdifferent teacher programs as
well, because it does such awonderful job illustrating the
relationship between economicfreedom and human prosperity.
And it's very easy to see thatnations that are economically
(24:33):
free are also the nations thathave the most wealth.
Their societies prosper more.
They have the most wealth.
Their societies prosper more.
They have lower infantmortality, they have longer
lifespans, basically higherstandards of living, and it's
very powerful in demonstratingthat Countries that are not
economically free North Korea isone you mentioned, Venezuela,
Cuba their standards of livingare so much lower.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Their life expectancies, infant mortality,
are just not as good ascountries that embrace economic
freedom, students, tfas havingprograms for college students
and young professionals, bothputting a strong emphasis on the
importance of learning aboutthe economic way of thinking.
I think we're filling a voidthat would just be so large if
it weren't for our programmingthat we're doing in this space.
So I don't want to keep you onthis podcast too long, because I
(25:29):
know you're still busyrecruiting students for the
summer and lining up all thedetails.
I know you'll be around thecountry, from Yale to Berkeley,
from Rice to Ohio State.
Just a couple of things beforewe go.
What about the internationaldimension?
Will you have manyinternational students
participating, either in person,because they're over here on
exchange programs, or throughthe virtual programs?
(25:51):
Is there an interest amonginternational students in FTE
programs?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
That's a great question, roger, and I know Lisa
can jump in as well.
But yes, we do see virtualprograms.
We see probably a good 10 to 15percent of the participants are
students in India, japan,europe, south America who are
participating in the program andwe're always fascinated because
our virtual programs aresynchronous programs, so they
(26:18):
start at 8 am Eastern time andrun to about 3 pm Eastern time.
So some of these students in,say, south Korea, are getting up
at the middle of the night andsitting through five hours of
class because they really valueit and for our in-person
programming I think the numbersare as great.
But yes, we're seeinginternational students flying in
(26:39):
, whether from India or China orEurope, to spend a week on
these college campuses.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Last, thing is, if I were someone coming to you today
to say I've got a milliondollars I want to invest in
economic education, could youuse it?
Are there things that are onyour wish list you'd like to be
doing, that you're unable to doI?
Speaker 3 (26:58):
would love to expand our student programming.
My dream would be able to doour economics for leaders in
every state of the union andrecruit the top students from
each state to sit through ourprogram.
That way, when they go out andthey do become future leaders
within their own states or moveinto government or business, we
would have leaders in everystate that understand economics,
(27:20):
understand the economicthinking, and we just would get
better decisions, yeah, and Iguess you're in close to half
now, so a ways to go, but it's adoable goal Anything you can
add to that, lisa.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
That would be amazing .
You know I would agree with Ted.
But you know, increasing thereach of our teacher programs,
obviously for me, you knowwhether it's just increasing the
number.
New curriculum, there's so manyplaces where that would be so
valuable and in terms ofthinking about students, there's
just a lot of students that wearen't reaching as much.
You know, it'd be great to dooutreach, to get in-person sort
(27:54):
of visits, so to speak, torecruit students from around the
country.
We're just limited right nowwith what we can do to recruit,
but we're doing a great job.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I'd like to test the Economics for Leaders program on
adult audience as well.
You know where you could get 30journalists in a room and do a
day or two of the kinds ofactivities-based learning and
teaching of economic conceptswith some of our top faculty or,
obviously, politicians or youngpolitical leaders or people in
think tanks.
I notice economic literacy is aproblem in think tanks too.
(28:26):
Even some of the traditional,more market-oriented think tanks
have students now who come towork there who haven't really
had any economics, and sothere's a big need to do more.
But thank you both, ted andLisa, for all you're doing now
and your team at FTE, youroffices in Davis, california.
I look forward to seeing someof the programs this summer
around the country and continueto work with you to accomplish
(28:49):
our mission.
Ted, lisa, thank you forjoining me on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Thanks for having us, Roger.
It is a wonderful opportunityto be here and talk to you.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Thank you, roger, for hosting, we really appreciate
it.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(29:27):
things, large and small.
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