September 18, 2024 • 30 mins
What has led to the erosion of civic engagement and volunteerism over the course of the past generation? This week Eric J. Tanenblatt joins host Roger Ream to discuss how his TFAS experience led to him to pursue a career in government and public service, and the memorable moments he experienced as a result (coordinating the 2004 G8 Economic Summit, serving in the George H. W. Bush administration and serving as chief of staff to former Georgia Governor Sonny Perdue). Tanenblatt also emphasizes the importance of civic engagement and volunteerism and gives his thoughts on effective leadership.
Eric is the global chair of public policy and regulation at Dentons Law Firm. For over three decades, he has worked at the highest levels of federal and state government, including serving in three presidential administrations. He is also an alumnus of The Fund for American Studies’ class of 1987 and was recently presented the TFAS 2024 Alumni Achievement Award at this year’s 34th Annual Scholarship Dinner.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today I'm your host, roger Ream.
Today I'm excited to welcomeEric J Tannenblatt to the
Liberty and Leadership Podcast.
Eric is the Global Chair ofPublic Policy and Regulation at
(00:25):
Denton's law firm.
For over three decades he hasworked at the highest levels of
federal and state government,including serving in three
presidential administrations.
Eric's commitment to civicengagement includes working with
the Corporation for Nationaland Community Service and the
National Conference for Serviceand Voluntarism.
(00:46):
He is the founder of Hands onGeorgia and has been recognized
as one of Georgia's 100 mostinfluential persons and was one
of the state's 40 under 40rising stars.
I'm pleased to share that Ericis an alumnus of the Fund for
American Studies Class of 1987,and over the years has
(01:07):
maintained a supportiverelationship with us.
He serves on our Board ofTrustees and led our 50th
anniversary campaign.
A man who certainly leads byexample.
Eric models the many qualitiesthat TFAS encourages its
students to emulate.
Because of this, tfas presentedits 2024 Alumni Achievement
(01:29):
Award to Eric at this year's34th Annual Scholarship Dinner.
Eric, welcome and thank you forjoining me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Glad to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
If I could start, you know close to the beginning,
which is 1987, when you attendedour economics and public policy
track, which was at that timethe Institute on Comparative
Political and Economic Systems,Could you tell me how you first
heard about our program while astudent at Emory University?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's hard to believe that was over 35 years
ago.
But I was looking to dosomething different.
During the summer of my junioryear, so I guess it was in the
fall of my junior year I startedto explore what opportunities
were out there and I went intothe Emory Career Planning and
Placement Center.
(02:18):
They gave me a book and it wasfilled with various programs and
opportunities and I startedperusing the book and saw the
brochure for TFAS and for theInstitute on Comparative
Political and Economic Systems,was intrigued, didn't tell my
parents or anyone and I justapplied and got in.
(02:38):
That's how it happened.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They probably don't have that book anymore, but I'm
sure they've got a lot of onlineresources.
That's right.
Hopefully we're in there.
Share some memorableexperiences from that summer in
1987, when you spent it inWashington DC with us.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Seriously, it was a life-changing experience for me
because it really set me on apath from a career standpoint to
pursue a career in governmentpolicy and politics.
I didn't know what to expectwhen I got to Washington.
I'd always been involved instudent government and was
always intrigued by governmentand politics, but never really
(03:16):
worked in or around governmentand politics, and being in
Washington DC, it was all aroundme and through the TFAS program
we had these uniqueopportunities to see things that
most people don't get to see.
And I remember going to theHouse floor and Congressman Newt
Gingrich this is before he wasin leadership spoke to us on the
(03:39):
floor of the House.
Just being in the Housechambers alone was pretty.
We were all pretty much in awe.
I remember going to a lunchthat we were all invited to at
the Washington Hilton and RonaldReagan spoke.
And for a young kid to see thePresident of the United States,
especially Ronald Reagan, and atthe Washington Hilton, which
(04:02):
has historic significance withregards to Ronald Reagan, and I
remember when he walked out hewalked right by our table and it
was definitely an aha momentfor me.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, that's really neat.
It's still an aha moment whenstudents happen to see even the
presidential motorcade go by, orsomething like that.
In what sense did the TFASexperience influence your career
trajectory?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, you know, after that summer I had decided that
I really thought that this was apath that I wanted to pursue,
and it was the fall of 1987.
So that was the start of the1988 presidential election,
(04:46):
presidential election.
And so I decided that during mysenior year I was going to get
involved in a presidentialelection and I researched all
the candidates that were runningand the candidate that was most
aligned with where I was wasGeorge HW Bush, who at the time
was the vice president.
So I made contact with hiscampaign leadership in Georgia
and I said I want to volunteeron the campaign and they got me
involved.
The vice president did hisSoutheastern announcement in
(05:09):
Atlanta and I helped get a bunchof Emory students to volunteer
and help with that event.
And then they gave me anothertask of organizing organizations
for the vice president oncollege campuses throughout
Georgia, organizations for thevice president on college
campuses throughout Georgia.
And then I had, because of mysummer at TFAST, I actually had
enough credits to graduate aftermy first semester.
(05:32):
So the Bush campaign asked meif I wanted a full-time job that
January, prior to the I guesswe had a Super Tuesday primary
in March and so I started outorganizing telephone banks for
the campaign.
And then about a month laterthey sent me out in the field
and I was assigned acongressional district and got
(05:55):
involved in the presidentialrace and then ultimately, when
President Bush won, was invitedto serve in his administration.
And so it all sort of took offfrom there and it started that
summer of 87.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned that
the credits you got at the TFASprogram helped you graduate
early and sounds like it made abig difference in enabling you
to get to work in the primaryand in the campaign.
You, of course, took theeconomics and government classes
we offer In any way.
Did those courses or your TFASparticipation influence or
provide any help to you in yournow jobs with three presidents a
(06:33):
US senator, the governor ofGeorgia how, if in any way, did
this help prepare you for thosecareer opportunities?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Absolutely, because you're in Washington for the
summer and it's an intenseperiod.
You're doing so much in sixweeks and it was unlike my
experience at Emory during thesemesters.
I was there because this wasreally an intense focus on
comparative political andeconomic systems and we were
constantly debating issues,talking about issues, and it
(07:05):
exposed me to things in a waythat I wasn't exposed to in my
political science classes atEmory and that really helped me.
As you know, I entered mycareer.
My first job in the Bushadministration was actually at
the Department of Health andHuman Services in their
legislative affairs.
At the Department of Health andHuman Services and their
(07:26):
legislative affairs and becauseof you know the experiences I
had over the summer at TFAS andfriends that worked on Capitol
Hill, you know I had someknowledge of the legislative
process.
And then I went to the PeaceCorps and worked under the
director of the Peace Corpsdoing congressional and
intergovernmental affairs.
But the Peace Corps is anagency that you know sends
Americans overseas.
So the international exposurewhile it was just over the
(07:50):
summer was definitely helpfuland it was actually during.
I was working at the PeaceCorps during the Gulf War and so
that was interesting too,because you were dealing with a
lot of international challenges.
President Bush built a strongalliance.
A lot of the allies that youknow were part of that alliance
were, you know, countries wetalked about during the summer
(08:11):
of 87.
So all of that was very helpfuland it's been helpful
throughout my career.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, now, in 2004,.
You had the opportunity tocoordinate and participate in
the G8 Economic Summit andyou've mentioned that over your
shoulder is a picture that showsthe participants in the summit.
Tell me what that was like.
And that was in Georgia, wasn'tit?
Was it in Sea Island?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It was in Sea Island, georgia, that was really
meaningful for a number ofreasons.
First of all, in 2000, I playeda leadership role in
then-Govern then PresidentGeorge W Bush's campaign in
Georgia, and so the G8 summit in2004 was hosted by President
Bush.
But I was also the chief ofstaff to Sonny Perdue, who was
(08:56):
the first Republican governor inGeorgia since Reconstruction,
and while I was the chief ofstaff to the governor, we really
made our case as to whyPresident Bush should select Sea
Island to host the G8 EconomicSummit.
So I was actually part of thelobbying team lobbying the White
(09:18):
House to select Georgia, andthen, once it was selected,
governor Perdue asked me toserve as the state coordinator.
So I've worked with the federalgovernment, the State
Department, the White House onall of the preparations leading
up to the actual summit and wasactually down on Sea Island
during the summit.
And I mean that is a uniqueexperience when you have the at
(09:41):
the time, the eight worldleaders plus the host of the
summit gets to invite otherworld leaders, if he chooses, to
the summit, and so there wereMiddle Eastern leaders, african
leaders, and they all convergedon Georgia, and I remember one
of the roles that GovernorPerdue, played along with
Senator Saxby Shambliss, who isour United States senator, was
(10:05):
to greet the world leaders whenIsland, so it was definitely a
memorable experience.
Every time I go down to SeaIsland, they have a room that's
dedicated to the G8 Summit, so Igo in there and I see all the
(10:25):
memorabilia from the summit.
So it was quite a memorableexperience and I was just really
honored to have been part of it.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Now we have several of our PFAS alums who are in the
governor's office today,including the chief of staff to
the governor of Georgia.
You were chief of staff togovernor.
What's that like?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
It's an important job .
It's probably the mostdifficult job I ever had.
For me it was somewhat uniquebecause, as I mentioned, sonny
Perdue was the first Republicangovernor in 135 years.
As I mentioned, sonny Perduewas the first Republican
governor in 135 years.
So if you have one partydominance for that long of a
period of time and then a newparty comes in, you're
(11:05):
transitioning all of stategovernment, and so, in addition
to dealing with that, we alsohad divided government.
We had a democraticallycontrolled house.
Governor Perdue, because of hisprevious service in the state
Senate, was able to get four ofhis former Democratic colleagues
to switch parties, so theRepublicans took control of the
(11:25):
state Senate.
An issue that was one of severalin that gubernatorial race was
the previous changing of thestate flag by the previous
governor.
That created some angst among alot of Georgians for not
feeling like they had a say init.
So we also had to deal with thelingering issues surrounding
(11:47):
the flag, which ultimately ledto the changing of the flag to
the current Georgia flag.
So the combination of thetransition of government,
divided government, the flagissue, and I should probably
also mention we inherited a$1.65 billion budget deficit, so
that one year I was his chiefof staff felt like a dog year,
felt like seven years, but itwas probably the while.
(12:10):
It was the most difficult.
It was probably the mostrewarding job that I've ever had
.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, georgia seemed to play an outsized role in the
last presidential election.
I imagine you're beinginundated right now with
commercials on television andall sorts of political activity
leading up to our election inNovember.
In fact, I know it for a factbecause my daughter lives in
Cumming, georgia, and she says Iwish we weren't a swing state.
(12:34):
You know, because of all thepolitical advertising.
But do you expect it to be asmooth election this time around
?
And or, if it's close, there'llbe the usual controversy about
the procedures or something?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I hope it's a smooth election.
I mean, everything's in placefor it to be a smooth election
and, you know, in 2020, it wasalso a smooth election.
There were challenges, but allof those were investigated and
found that there was nocredibility to the challenges
and the state legislatureactually has taken action over
(13:08):
the last four years to reallymake the elections even more
bulletproof.
Look, elections are nevercompletely perfect, but I do
believe that the state has donea very effective job.
I'm sure that there'll be, aswith every election, there's
going to be some questionsraised.
I hope there's not an organizedeffort if the outcome isn't the
(13:31):
way someone would like it to be.
But it's been interesting inGeorgia because, you know, when
I first got involved 35 plusyears ago, you know Georgia had
elected Republicans in thepresidential race and over the
last 30 years we've been more ofa right-leaning state,
especially at the federal level.
Bill Clinton did defeat GeorgeBush in 92, but that was really
(13:55):
because of Ross Perot.
George Bush in 92, but that wasreally because of Ross Perot.
But every other presidentialelection you know from George
Bush, george W Bush, bob Dole,john McCain, mitt Romney they
all carried the state and itwasn't until 2020 that Joe Biden
carried Georgia and,unfortunately, because of some
of the challenges and somepeople being so focused on the
(14:18):
outcome of the November 2020election, it suppressed the vote
in the runoff that we had inJanuary 2021.
And Republicans lost two Senateseats.
And now, with two Democraticsenators who have their own
state organizations, one of whom, senator Warnock, got reelected
two years ago.
(14:39):
And the demographics in Georgiahave changed.
It's become a much more purpleand you could see from the polls
that you know, the more recentpolls that you know we're tied.
The two candidates are tied inthe state.
So I think it's going to be avery close election and it's
going to all go down.
You know, get down to who canturn out their voters.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, shifting a little to your current position
at Denton's, you're with theworld's largest law firm, as the
global chair of public policyand regulation.
Could you talk about what thatjob involves?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Sure, Sure, I mean I lead a practice group of lawyers
and professionals that reallyfocus at the intersection of
business, government and law,and they assist companies,
organizations that have issueswith the government, and we do
that focuses on the federalgovernment.
We have people across thecountry that focus on state
(15:37):
government.
We also do work at the locallevel with large municipalities.
We have an attorney's generalpractice that works with state
attorneys general across thecountry and we have a public
affairs practice that reallylooks at communications, because
in the public policy world, onething that I've seen over the
(15:59):
last three decades that haschanged is that there's a lot
more involvement on the part ofthe media, grassroots coalition
buildings.
So we have a team of people inour group that focuses on that
and that's in the US, and thenevery country is different in
terms of public policy and therole that outside consultants or
(16:19):
law firms play, and so you know, our firm has set up with
different regions, so in eachregion there's a leader, and so,
as the global chair, Icoordinate all the leaders
around the globe in my globalcapacity.
So I have a global role, but myprimary role is the head of the
US practice.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Now, you've written about autonomous vehicles over
the past several years and havebecome somewhat of an expert in
the legal aspects of thattechnology.
From everything I've read, theuse of technology and autonomous
vehicles will dramaticallyreduce the number of car
accidents.
But there's a thorny issueinvolving the insurance and
(17:02):
liability issues.
Do you expect that that willsomehow be worked out in a way
that we can expect autonomousvehicles to flourish in the
future?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I do.
It'll be a little bit ugly atfirst, you know working all of
this out, but you raise a reallygood point about safety.
You know, right now 85 to 90%of accidents that occur is
because of human error, and oneof the things that autonomous
vehicles will do is it'll takeaway that human error, and so I
(17:32):
do think that safety willimprove.
Now you'll have a period oftime where you're going to have
people driving cars and theseautonomous vehicles and I'm sure
that there will be accidentsand I'm sure the individuals
that may be responsible willblame the machines as opposed to
taking responsibility for it.
But there's a lot that hasoccurred in the last seven years
(17:55):
in the autonomous vehicle space.
The states typically haveresponsibility for regulating
the drivers and the cars.
Regulations come from thefederal government.
The problem with autonomousvehicles, or the challenge I
should say, is that the carsbecome the drivers, so a lot of
this is being regulated at thestate level.
(18:16):
The federal government has beenlate to the party.
That has changed in the lastseveral years.
There has been efforts, somefits and starts in trying to get
Congress to pass laws, to put alegislative framework together.
I think the DOT is playing amuch bigger role the US DOT in
regulating autonomous vehicles,but we still have a ways to go.
(18:36):
That bigger role the US DOT inregulating autonomous vehicles,
but we still have a ways to go.
Look the people, it's fear ofthe unknown and, I think, the
testing that's taking place.
There's a lot of municipalitiesright now where you're seeing
robo-taxis that are on the road.
I think all of that stuff isgood because the more people can
experience it.
Ride in an autonomous shuttle,ride in a robo taxi will make it
(18:59):
a lot easier as society as awhole moves to autonomous
passenger vehicles.
And I also want one last thingbecause, as you can tell, I
could probably talk about wehave a whole podcast on this
topic but I do think youngerpeople tend to not want cars
these days.
They want to use, whether it'spublic transportation, uber or
(19:21):
ride-sharing, and autonomousvehicles I think will be part of
that ecosystem that you'regoing to see younger people
gravitate to.
And I think at some point theUbers of today will be
autonomous fleet vehicles thatwill just be traveling around
cities, circulating, pickingpeople up, dropping them off.
(19:41):
And you know, electric vehicleshave a lot longer shelf life or
can last a whole lot longerthan a combustible engine
vehicle.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Are there some countries in the world that are
further along in adopting thattechnology?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Sure, You're starting to see China.
There's some places in Europethat have been at the forefront.
The UK has been doing testing.
You see it in Australia andSingapore.
But look, the US is still aleader in technology and you see
a lot of activity in the UnitedStates and I think we'll be at
(20:19):
the forefront of it.
We just got to work throughsome of the regulatory hurdles,
and also the United States.
Unlike some of other countries,we tend to be a more litigious
society and because you'redealing with liability issues,
as you mentioned, I think thatmay slow us down a little bit,
but I think it'll ultimately getworked out.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Well, that's your job there, Eric, to solve those
problems along with yourcolleagues in the legal
profession.
Tell me about your work in theBuckhead community.
You're a leader there.
I've seen you quoted in newsstories about things in Buckhead
.
I saw recently a report, Ithink you posted, about the drop
in the crime rate.
Tell us more about what you doin Buckhead as a leader there.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
So Buckhead is part of the city of Atlanta and it's
the northern part of the cityand it's a unique area in that
it's a mix of residential,commercial and there's a lot of
tourist hotels.
And I'm a member of anorganization called the Buckhead
Coalition I actually amfinishing my two-year term as
chair and we focus on improvingthe quality of life for
(21:21):
businesses, residents andvisitors in the Buckhead area.
When I took over as chairman andthis, I think, gets to your
point about crime, you know,coming out of COVID, as most
metropolitan cities across thecountry, there was a spike in
crime and Atlanta was not immuneto that and so all across the
(21:43):
city of Atlanta crime spiked,including Buckhead, and it
actually birthed the movement bysome that has now, fortunately,
has gone away, but wanting topeel Buckhead out of the city of
Atlanta and turn it into itsown city, which I think would be
a big mistake.
And the city of Atlanta electeda new mayor, andre Dickens, who
(22:05):
has done a really tremendous job, and when he came into office
one of the top priorities forhim was to bring down the crime
rate throughout the city, but inparticular in Atlanta.
Buckhead historically hasalways had the lowest crime rate
throughout the city, but inparticular in Atlanta.
Buckhead historically hasalways had the lowest crime rate
in the city of Atlanta and weknew that, even though there was
a spike as a result of COVID,we can get those numbers back
(22:26):
down and working with the policedepartment, the police chief,
the mayor and leaders in thecity council, and working with
the state as well, we were ableto do that.
And now Buckhead again leadsthe city of Atlanta in the drop
in crime.
The whole city has seen a dropin crime and Buckhead is once
again flourishing and it is agreat place to live, work and
(22:49):
raise a family.
So anyone watching this podcast, I invite you to come to
Buckhead.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It is a beautiful, beautiful part of that.
Atlanta You've served inimportant roles in promoting
philanthropy, voluntary service,public service, both at the
national level as well inAtlanta, as I mentioned in my
introduction, and your servicein Buckhead is one aspect of
that.
But it seems to me that onetrend that's been a little
(23:18):
disturbing over the last, oh,maybe 20 to 30 years is that
people more regularly turn togovernment when there's a
problem in a community.
Let's get Washington DCespecially to try to solve that,
and many of the solutions canbe found at home through
citizens working voluntarily intheir communities to solve those
problems in their communities,to solve those problems.
(23:41):
Could you talk some about thework you've done in this area,
both in your service nationally,as well as whether you think
this trend to move everything toWashington to be solved can be
slowed down or stopped?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I'm glad you raised that, because it's actually I
don't want to say a crisis, butthere's actual data that shows
that volunteerism in general ison the decline, and that's
really unfortunate.
I've always had a passion forcivic engagement.
I think it's part of our dutyas citizens, as Americans, going
(24:12):
back to when the country wasfounded, and neighbors help
neighbors, whether it wasraising a barn or working in
faith-based organizationshelping your neighbor.
And so I have been engaged incivic activity, even going back
to when I was a little kid andmore recently had the honor of
(24:33):
being appointed by PresidentBush to serve on the board of
the Corporation for National andCommunity Service, which is the
largest grant-makingorganization in the federal
government for the AmeriCorpsprogram.
And to your point aboutgovernment, americorps is
actually a unique program.
Most people don't realize itbecause it's a public-private
(24:53):
partnership, so the federalgovernment just provides some of
the funding, but it has to bematched at the state and local
level, so it's actually a 17 to1 return on investment for the
federal government, and so Ithink there's a role that
government can play to be acatalyst for programs like
AmeriCorps.
(25:14):
But I do think that there'smore that individual citizens
can do, nonprofits can do thatcorporations can do, working
with local nonprofits, so thatwe're not so dependent on
government.
I now sit on the board of Pointsof Light.
That was something that wasfounded by President George HW
(25:35):
Bush, which is reallyinteresting because it comes
full circle, because, as Imentioned earlier, that was the
first person I worked for, youknow, out of college was the
Bush administration and you knowhe saw that everyone can be a
point of light, everyone can dosomething to help their
community, and I, you know,really believe that that's
(25:56):
something that we all it's anobligation that all of us, you
know, need to take seriously,and I'm hoping that we can
change the trend in volunteerismand more people will get
involved, helping theircommunity.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
At our annual scholarship dinner, you are
awarded our TFAS AlumniAchievement Award and it's an
alumni-initiated process thatputs forward the names of our
alumni, and we were so pleasedto give it to you this summer,
eric, and could you talk alittle bit to our alumni and
current students about what itmeans to be an effective,
courageous leader and what kindof leadership lessons you might
(26:31):
offer?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Well, first I want to thank TFAST and those that
selected me.
That was a real honor because,as I hope to have demonstrated
in our conversation, tfas wasreally influential in my life
and the career that I pursuedand what I do every day.
So to be acknowledged by theorganization was really
(26:54):
meaningful.
I have been very fortunatethroughout my career to have had
tremendous mentors, and tostudents and future students, I
hope that you have afforded thesame opportunity.
I was taught early on in mycareer by.
Probably the person that was themost influential was the late
(27:17):
US Senator Paul Coverdale, who Istarted working for him when he
was director of the Peace Corpsand then worked for him in the
United States Senate, and one ofthe things he taught me was
that it's really important tolisten and that, while you may
not always agree with someone,you will likely learn something
from listening, and I think thatwas something that has always
(27:40):
stayed with me and that'ssomething that I have used
throughout my whole career andin positions of leadership,
because I think it's easy tolead people when you understand
the people that you're leadingand the people that you're
leading feel respected, and oneway that people feel respected
is to have someone listen tothem.
(28:03):
One of the other expressions orthings he used to say a lot is
that the competition of ideas isa good thing, that when you
have a competition of ideas, thebest ideas bubble up to the top
, and you know it's unfortunatethat.
You know we're living in a timethat is very divisive.
People tend to be in their owncorner, listen to what they want
(28:25):
to hear, and we're not doing alot of listening, and I think we
as a nation can do a whole lotbetter if we were doing a lot
more listening.
So I guess that would be what Iwould want to convey to current
students and others that arelistening.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Well, that's excellent.
At our orientation program eachsummer for students, I
emphasize the importance oflistening, that you do learn
more from listening than just bytalking, and I picked this up
somewhere that I like to say tothem.
God endowed us with two earsand one mouth and expects us to
use them proportionally, andit's something I emphasize too
(29:02):
in our fundraising team at TFASthe importance of listening,
because when you go visit with asupporter, you know we want to
hear what they think, what kindsof things they're trying to
accomplish.
And that's the way in any salesposition, whether it's
fundraising or selling a product.
You want to listen to yourcustomer to learn what it is
they're trying to accomplish.
(29:24):
Well, eric, thank you so muchfor joining me this morning.
I know you keep a very busyschedule and you're often not
only in Washington DC butprobably traveling the globe on
Denton's business and other workyou're doing.
We're proud to call you a TFASalum.
Thank you for your service onour board of trustees as well.
It's very valuable there andappreciate you being with me
this morning.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, thank you, and I always have time for T-Fest.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(30:10):
things, large and small.
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today I'm your host, roger Ream.
Today I'm excited to welcomeEric J Tannenblatt to the
Liberty and Leadership Podcast.
Eric is the Global Chair ofPublic Policy and Regulation at
(00:25):
Denton's law firm.
For over three decades he hasworked at the highest levels of
federal and state government,including serving in three
presidential administrations.
Eric's commitment to civicengagement includes working with
the Corporation for Nationaland Community Service and the
National Conference for Serviceand Voluntarism.
(00:46):
He is the founder of Hands onGeorgia and has been recognized
as one of Georgia's 100 mostinfluential persons and was one
of the state's 40 under 40rising stars.
I'm pleased to share that Ericis an alumnus of the Fund for
American Studies Class of 1987,and over the years has
(01:07):
maintained a supportiverelationship with us.
He serves on our Board ofTrustees and led our 50th
anniversary campaign.
A man who certainly leads byexample.
Eric models the many qualitiesthat TFAS encourages its
students to emulate.
Because of this, tfas presentedits 2024 Alumni Achievement
(01:29):
Award to Eric at this year's34th Annual Scholarship Dinner.
Eric, welcome and thank you forjoining me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Glad to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
If I could start, you know close to the beginning,
which is 1987, when you attendedour economics and public policy
track, which was at that timethe Institute on Comparative
Political and Economic Systems,Could you tell me how you first
heard about our program while astudent at Emory University?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's hard to believe that was over 35 years
ago.
But I was looking to dosomething different.
During the summer of my junioryear, so I guess it was in the
fall of my junior year I startedto explore what opportunities
were out there and I went intothe Emory Career Planning and
Placement Center.
(02:18):
They gave me a book and it wasfilled with various programs and
opportunities and I startedperusing the book and saw the
brochure for TFAS and for theInstitute on Comparative
Political and Economic Systems,was intrigued, didn't tell my
parents or anyone and I justapplied and got in.
(02:38):
That's how it happened.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They probably don't have that book anymore, but I'm
sure they've got a lot of onlineresources.
That's right.
Hopefully we're in there.
Share some memorableexperiences from that summer in
1987, when you spent it inWashington DC with us.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Seriously, it was a life-changing experience for me
because it really set me on apath from a career standpoint to
pursue a career in governmentpolicy and politics.
I didn't know what to expectwhen I got to Washington.
I'd always been involved instudent government and was
always intrigued by governmentand politics, but never really
(03:16):
worked in or around governmentand politics, and being in
Washington DC, it was all aroundme and through the TFAS program
we had these uniqueopportunities to see things that
most people don't get to see.
And I remember going to theHouse floor and Congressman Newt
Gingrich this is before he wasin leadership spoke to us on the
(03:39):
floor of the House.
Just being in the Housechambers alone was pretty.
We were all pretty much in awe.
I remember going to a lunchthat we were all invited to at
the Washington Hilton and RonaldReagan spoke.
And for a young kid to see thePresident of the United States,
especially Ronald Reagan, and atthe Washington Hilton, which
(04:02):
has historic significance withregards to Ronald Reagan, and I
remember when he walked out hewalked right by our table and it
was definitely an aha momentfor me.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, that's really neat.
It's still an aha moment whenstudents happen to see even the
presidential motorcade go by, orsomething like that.
In what sense did the TFASexperience influence your career
trajectory?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, you know, after that summer I had decided that
I really thought that this was apath that I wanted to pursue,
and it was the fall of 1987.
So that was the start of the1988 presidential election,
(04:46):
presidential election.
And so I decided that during mysenior year I was going to get
involved in a presidentialelection and I researched all
the candidates that were runningand the candidate that was most
aligned with where I was wasGeorge HW Bush, who at the time
was the vice president.
So I made contact with hiscampaign leadership in Georgia
and I said I want to volunteeron the campaign and they got me
involved.
The vice president did hisSoutheastern announcement in
(05:09):
Atlanta and I helped get a bunchof Emory students to volunteer
and help with that event.
And then they gave me anothertask of organizing organizations
for the vice president oncollege campuses throughout
Georgia, organizations for thevice president on college
campuses throughout Georgia.
And then I had, because of mysummer at TFAST, I actually had
enough credits to graduate aftermy first semester.
(05:32):
So the Bush campaign asked meif I wanted a full-time job that
January, prior to the I guesswe had a Super Tuesday primary
in March and so I started outorganizing telephone banks for
the campaign.
And then about a month laterthey sent me out in the field
and I was assigned acongressional district and got
(05:55):
involved in the presidentialrace and then ultimately, when
President Bush won, was invitedto serve in his administration.
And so it all sort of took offfrom there and it started that
summer of 87.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned that
the credits you got at the TFASprogram helped you graduate
early and sounds like it made abig difference in enabling you
to get to work in the primaryand in the campaign.
You, of course, took theeconomics and government classes
we offer In any way.
Did those courses or your TFASparticipation influence or
provide any help to you in yournow jobs with three presidents a
(06:33):
US senator, the governor ofGeorgia how, if in any way, did
this help prepare you for thosecareer opportunities?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Absolutely, because you're in Washington for the
summer and it's an intenseperiod.
You're doing so much in sixweeks and it was unlike my
experience at Emory during thesemesters.
I was there because this wasreally an intense focus on
comparative political andeconomic systems and we were
constantly debating issues,talking about issues, and it
(07:05):
exposed me to things in a waythat I wasn't exposed to in my
political science classes atEmory and that really helped me.
As you know, I entered mycareer.
My first job in the Bushadministration was actually at
the Department of Health andHuman Services in their
legislative affairs.
At the Department of Health andHuman Services and their
(07:26):
legislative affairs and becauseof you know the experiences I
had over the summer at TFAS andfriends that worked on Capitol
Hill, you know I had someknowledge of the legislative
process.
And then I went to the PeaceCorps and worked under the
director of the Peace Corpsdoing congressional and
intergovernmental affairs.
But the Peace Corps is anagency that you know sends
Americans overseas.
So the international exposurewhile it was just over the
(07:50):
summer was definitely helpfuland it was actually during.
I was working at the PeaceCorps during the Gulf War and so
that was interesting too,because you were dealing with a
lot of international challenges.
President Bush built a strongalliance.
A lot of the allies that youknow were part of that alliance
were, you know, countries wetalked about during the summer
(08:11):
of 87.
So all of that was very helpfuland it's been helpful
throughout my career.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, now, in 2004,.
You had the opportunity tocoordinate and participate in
the G8 Economic Summit andyou've mentioned that over your
shoulder is a picture that showsthe participants in the summit.
Tell me what that was like.
And that was in Georgia, wasn'tit?
Was it in Sea Island?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It was in Sea Island, georgia, that was really
meaningful for a number ofreasons.
First of all, in 2000, I playeda leadership role in
then-Govern then PresidentGeorge W Bush's campaign in
Georgia, and so the G8 summit in2004 was hosted by President
Bush.
But I was also the chief ofstaff to Sonny Perdue, who was
(08:56):
the first Republican governor inGeorgia since Reconstruction,
and while I was the chief ofstaff to the governor, we really
made our case as to whyPresident Bush should select Sea
Island to host the G8 EconomicSummit.
So I was actually part of thelobbying team lobbying the White
(09:18):
House to select Georgia, andthen, once it was selected,
governor Perdue asked me toserve as the state coordinator.
So I've worked with the federalgovernment, the State
Department, the White House onall of the preparations leading
up to the actual summit and wasactually down on Sea Island
during the summit.
And I mean that is a uniqueexperience when you have the at
(09:41):
the time, the eight worldleaders plus the host of the
summit gets to invite otherworld leaders, if he chooses, to
the summit, and so there wereMiddle Eastern leaders, african
leaders, and they all convergedon Georgia, and I remember one
of the roles that GovernorPerdue, played along with
Senator Saxby Shambliss, who isour United States senator, was
(10:05):
to greet the world leaders whenIsland, so it was definitely a
memorable experience.
Every time I go down to SeaIsland, they have a room that's
dedicated to the G8 Summit, so Igo in there and I see all the
(10:25):
memorabilia from the summit.
So it was quite a memorableexperience and I was just really
honored to have been part of it.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Now we have several of our PFAS alums who are in the
governor's office today,including the chief of staff to
the governor of Georgia.
You were chief of staff togovernor.
What's that like?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
It's an important job .
It's probably the mostdifficult job I ever had.
For me it was somewhat uniquebecause, as I mentioned, sonny
Perdue was the first Republicangovernor in 135 years.
As I mentioned, sonny Perduewas the first Republican
governor in 135 years.
So if you have one partydominance for that long of a
period of time and then a newparty comes in, you're
(11:05):
transitioning all of stategovernment, and so, in addition
to dealing with that, we alsohad divided government.
We had a democraticallycontrolled house.
Governor Perdue, because of hisprevious service in the state
Senate, was able to get four ofhis former Democratic colleagues
to switch parties, so theRepublicans took control of the
(11:25):
state Senate.
An issue that was one of severalin that gubernatorial race was
the previous changing of thestate flag by the previous
governor.
That created some angst among alot of Georgians for not
feeling like they had a say init.
So we also had to deal with thelingering issues surrounding
(11:47):
the flag, which ultimately ledto the changing of the flag to
the current Georgia flag.
So the combination of thetransition of government,
divided government, the flagissue, and I should probably
also mention we inherited a$1.65 billion budget deficit, so
that one year I was his chiefof staff felt like a dog year,
felt like seven years, but itwas probably the while.
(12:10):
It was the most difficult.
It was probably the mostrewarding job that I've ever had
.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, georgia seemed to play an outsized role in the
last presidential election.
I imagine you're beinginundated right now with
commercials on television andall sorts of political activity
leading up to our election inNovember.
In fact, I know it for a factbecause my daughter lives in
Cumming, georgia, and she says Iwish we weren't a swing state.
(12:34):
You know, because of all thepolitical advertising.
But do you expect it to be asmooth election this time around
?
And or, if it's close, there'llbe the usual controversy about
the procedures or something?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I hope it's a smooth election.
I mean, everything's in placefor it to be a smooth election
and, you know, in 2020, it wasalso a smooth election.
There were challenges, but allof those were investigated and
found that there was nocredibility to the challenges
and the state legislatureactually has taken action over
(13:08):
the last four years to reallymake the elections even more
bulletproof.
Look, elections are nevercompletely perfect, but I do
believe that the state has donea very effective job.
I'm sure that there'll be, aswith every election, there's
going to be some questionsraised.
I hope there's not an organizedeffort if the outcome isn't the
(13:31):
way someone would like it to be.
But it's been interesting inGeorgia because, you know, when
I first got involved 35 plusyears ago, you know Georgia had
elected Republicans in thepresidential race and over the
last 30 years we've been more ofa right-leaning state,
especially at the federal level.
Bill Clinton did defeat GeorgeBush in 92, but that was really
(13:55):
because of Ross Perot.
George Bush in 92, but that wasreally because of Ross Perot.
But every other presidentialelection you know from George
Bush, george W Bush, bob Dole,john McCain, mitt Romney they
all carried the state and itwasn't until 2020 that Joe Biden
carried Georgia and,unfortunately, because of some
of the challenges and somepeople being so focused on the
(14:18):
outcome of the November 2020election, it suppressed the vote
in the runoff that we had inJanuary 2021.
And Republicans lost two Senateseats.
And now, with two Democraticsenators who have their own
state organizations, one of whom, senator Warnock, got reelected
two years ago.
(14:39):
And the demographics in Georgiahave changed.
It's become a much more purpleand you could see from the polls
that you know, the more recentpolls that you know we're tied.
The two candidates are tied inthe state.
So I think it's going to be avery close election and it's
going to all go down.
You know, get down to who canturn out their voters.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Well, shifting a little to your current position
at Denton's, you're with theworld's largest law firm, as the
global chair of public policyand regulation.
Could you talk about what thatjob involves?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Sure, Sure, I mean I lead a practice group of lawyers
and professionals that reallyfocus at the intersection of
business, government and law,and they assist companies,
organizations that have issueswith the government, and we do
that focuses on the federalgovernment.
We have people across thecountry that focus on state
(15:37):
government.
We also do work at the locallevel with large municipalities.
We have an attorney's generalpractice that works with state
attorneys general across thecountry and we have a public
affairs practice that reallylooks at communications, because
in the public policy world, onething that I've seen over the
(15:59):
last three decades that haschanged is that there's a lot
more involvement on the part ofthe media, grassroots coalition
buildings.
So we have a team of people inour group that focuses on that
and that's in the US, and thenevery country is different in
terms of public policy and therole that outside consultants or
(16:19):
law firms play, and so you know, our firm has set up with
different regions, so in eachregion there's a leader, and so,
as the global chair, Icoordinate all the leaders
around the globe in my globalcapacity.
So I have a global role, but myprimary role is the head of the
US practice.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Now, you've written about autonomous vehicles over
the past several years and havebecome somewhat of an expert in
the legal aspects of thattechnology.
From everything I've read, theuse of technology and autonomous
vehicles will dramaticallyreduce the number of car
accidents.
But there's a thorny issueinvolving the insurance and
(17:02):
liability issues.
Do you expect that that willsomehow be worked out in a way
that we can expect autonomousvehicles to flourish in the
future?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I do.
It'll be a little bit ugly atfirst, you know working all of
this out, but you raise a reallygood point about safety.
You know, right now 85 to 90%of accidents that occur is
because of human error, and oneof the things that autonomous
vehicles will do is it'll takeaway that human error, and so I
(17:32):
do think that safety willimprove.
Now you'll have a period oftime where you're going to have
people driving cars and theseautonomous vehicles and I'm sure
that there will be accidentsand I'm sure the individuals
that may be responsible willblame the machines as opposed to
taking responsibility for it.
But there's a lot that hasoccurred in the last seven years
(17:55):
in the autonomous vehicle space.
The states typically haveresponsibility for regulating
the drivers and the cars.
Regulations come from thefederal government.
The problem with autonomousvehicles, or the challenge I
should say, is that the carsbecome the drivers, so a lot of
this is being regulated at thestate level.
(18:16):
The federal government has beenlate to the party.
That has changed in the lastseveral years.
There has been efforts, somefits and starts in trying to get
Congress to pass laws, to put alegislative framework together.
I think the DOT is playing amuch bigger role the US DOT in
regulating autonomous vehicles,but we still have a ways to go.
(18:36):
That bigger role the US DOT inregulating autonomous vehicles,
but we still have a ways to go.
Look the people, it's fear ofthe unknown and, I think, the
testing that's taking place.
There's a lot of municipalitiesright now where you're seeing
robo-taxis that are on the road.
I think all of that stuff isgood because the more people can
experience it.
Ride in an autonomous shuttle,ride in a robo taxi will make it
(18:59):
a lot easier as society as awhole moves to autonomous
passenger vehicles.
And I also want one last thingbecause, as you can tell, I
could probably talk about wehave a whole podcast on this
topic but I do think youngerpeople tend to not want cars
these days.
They want to use, whether it'spublic transportation, uber or
(19:21):
ride-sharing, and autonomousvehicles I think will be part of
that ecosystem that you'regoing to see younger people
gravitate to.
And I think at some point theUbers of today will be
autonomous fleet vehicles thatwill just be traveling around
cities, circulating, pickingpeople up, dropping them off.
(19:41):
And you know, electric vehicleshave a lot longer shelf life or
can last a whole lot longerthan a combustible engine
vehicle.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Are there some countries in the world that are
further along in adopting thattechnology?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Sure, You're starting to see China.
There's some places in Europethat have been at the forefront.
The UK has been doing testing.
You see it in Australia andSingapore.
But look, the US is still aleader in technology and you see
a lot of activity in the UnitedStates and I think we'll be at
(20:19):
the forefront of it.
We just got to work throughsome of the regulatory hurdles,
and also the United States.
Unlike some of other countries,we tend to be a more litigious
society and because you'redealing with liability issues,
as you mentioned, I think thatmay slow us down a little bit,
but I think it'll ultimately getworked out.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Well, that's your job there, Eric, to solve those
problems along with yourcolleagues in the legal
profession.
Tell me about your work in theBuckhead community.
You're a leader there.
I've seen you quoted in newsstories about things in Buckhead
.
I saw recently a report, Ithink you posted, about the drop
in the crime rate.
Tell us more about what you doin Buckhead as a leader there.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
So Buckhead is part of the city of Atlanta and it's
the northern part of the cityand it's a unique area in that
it's a mix of residential,commercial and there's a lot of
tourist hotels.
And I'm a member of anorganization called the Buckhead
Coalition I actually amfinishing my two-year term as
chair and we focus on improvingthe quality of life for
(21:21):
businesses, residents andvisitors in the Buckhead area.
When I took over as chairman andthis, I think, gets to your
point about crime, you know,coming out of COVID, as most
metropolitan cities across thecountry, there was a spike in
crime and Atlanta was not immuneto that and so all across the
(21:43):
city of Atlanta crime spiked,including Buckhead, and it
actually birthed the movement bysome that has now, fortunately,
has gone away, but wanting topeel Buckhead out of the city of
Atlanta and turn it into itsown city, which I think would be
a big mistake.
And the city of Atlanta electeda new mayor, andre Dickens, who
(22:05):
has done a really tremendous job, and when he came into office
one of the top priorities forhim was to bring down the crime
rate throughout the city, but inparticular in Atlanta.
Buckhead historically hasalways had the lowest crime rate
throughout the city, but inparticular in Atlanta.
Buckhead historically hasalways had the lowest crime rate
in the city of Atlanta and weknew that, even though there was
a spike as a result of COVID,we can get those numbers back
(22:26):
down and working with the policedepartment, the police chief,
the mayor and leaders in thecity council, and working with
the state as well, we were ableto do that.
And now Buckhead again leadsthe city of Atlanta in the drop
in crime.
The whole city has seen a dropin crime and Buckhead is once
again flourishing and it is agreat place to live, work and
(22:49):
raise a family.
So anyone watching this podcast, I invite you to come to
Buckhead.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It is a beautiful, beautiful part of that.
Atlanta You've served inimportant roles in promoting
philanthropy, voluntary service,public service, both at the
national level as well inAtlanta, as I mentioned in my
introduction, and your servicein Buckhead is one aspect of
that.
But it seems to me that onetrend that's been a little
(23:18):
disturbing over the last, oh,maybe 20 to 30 years is that
people more regularly turn togovernment when there's a
problem in a community.
Let's get Washington DCespecially to try to solve that,
and many of the solutions canbe found at home through
citizens working voluntarily intheir communities to solve those
problems in their communities,to solve those problems.
(23:41):
Could you talk some about thework you've done in this area,
both in your service nationally,as well as whether you think
this trend to move everything toWashington to be solved can be
slowed down or stopped?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I'm glad you raised that, because it's actually I
don't want to say a crisis, butthere's actual data that shows
that volunteerism in general ison the decline, and that's
really unfortunate.
I've always had a passion forcivic engagement.
I think it's part of our dutyas citizens, as Americans, going
(24:12):
back to when the country wasfounded, and neighbors help
neighbors, whether it wasraising a barn or working in
faith-based organizationshelping your neighbor.
And so I have been engaged incivic activity, even going back
to when I was a little kid andmore recently had the honor of
(24:33):
being appointed by PresidentBush to serve on the board of
the Corporation for National andCommunity Service, which is the
largest grant-makingorganization in the federal
government for the AmeriCorpsprogram.
And to your point aboutgovernment, americorps is
actually a unique program.
Most people don't realize itbecause it's a public-private
(24:53):
partnership, so the federalgovernment just provides some of
the funding, but it has to bematched at the state and local
level, so it's actually a 17 to1 return on investment for the
federal government, and so Ithink there's a role that
government can play to be acatalyst for programs like
AmeriCorps.
(25:14):
But I do think that there'smore that individual citizens
can do, nonprofits can do thatcorporations can do, working
with local nonprofits, so thatwe're not so dependent on
government.
I now sit on the board of Pointsof Light.
That was something that wasfounded by President George HW
(25:35):
Bush, which is reallyinteresting because it comes
full circle, because, as Imentioned earlier, that was the
first person I worked for, youknow, out of college was the
Bush administration and you knowhe saw that everyone can be a
point of light, everyone can dosomething to help their
community, and I, you know,really believe that that's
(25:56):
something that we all it's anobligation that all of us, you
know, need to take seriously,and I'm hoping that we can
change the trend in volunteerismand more people will get
involved, helping theircommunity.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
At our annual scholarship dinner, you are
awarded our TFAS AlumniAchievement Award and it's an
alumni-initiated process thatputs forward the names of our
alumni, and we were so pleasedto give it to you this summer,
eric, and could you talk alittle bit to our alumni and
current students about what itmeans to be an effective,
courageous leader and what kindof leadership lessons you might
(26:31):
offer?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Well, first I want to thank TFAST and those that
selected me.
That was a real honor because,as I hope to have demonstrated
in our conversation, tfas wasreally influential in my life
and the career that I pursuedand what I do every day.
So to be acknowledged by theorganization was really
(26:54):
meaningful.
I have been very fortunatethroughout my career to have had
tremendous mentors, and tostudents and future students, I
hope that you have afforded thesame opportunity.
I was taught early on in mycareer by.
Probably the person that was themost influential was the late
(27:17):
US Senator Paul Coverdale, who Istarted working for him when he
was director of the Peace Corpsand then worked for him in the
United States Senate, and one ofthe things he taught me was
that it's really important tolisten and that, while you may
not always agree with someone,you will likely learn something
from listening, and I think thatwas something that has always
(27:40):
stayed with me and that'ssomething that I have used
throughout my whole career andin positions of leadership,
because I think it's easy tolead people when you understand
the people that you're leadingand the people that you're
leading feel respected, and oneway that people feel respected
is to have someone listen tothem.
(28:03):
One of the other expressions orthings he used to say a lot is
that the competition of ideas isa good thing, that when you
have a competition of ideas, thebest ideas bubble up to the top
, and you know it's unfortunatethat.
You know we're living in a timethat is very divisive.
People tend to be in their owncorner, listen to what they want
(28:25):
to hear, and we're not doing alot of listening, and I think we
as a nation can do a whole lotbetter if we were doing a lot
more listening.
So I guess that would be what Iwould want to convey to current
students and others that arelistening.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Well, that's excellent.
At our orientation program eachsummer for students, I
emphasize the importance oflistening, that you do learn
more from listening than just bytalking, and I picked this up
somewhere that I like to say tothem.
God endowed us with two earsand one mouth and expects us to
use them proportionally, andit's something I emphasize too
(29:02):
in our fundraising team at TFASthe importance of listening,
because when you go visit with asupporter, you know we want to
hear what they think, what kindsof things they're trying to
accomplish.
And that's the way in any salesposition, whether it's
fundraising or selling a product.
You want to listen to yourcustomer to learn what it is
they're trying to accomplish.
(29:24):
Well, eric, thank you so muchfor joining me this morning.
I know you keep a very busyschedule and you're often not
only in Washington DC butprobably traveling the globe on
Denton's business and other workyou're doing.
We're proud to call you a TFASalum.
Thank you for your service onour board of trustees as well.
It's very valuable there andappreciate you being with me
this morning.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, thank you, and I always have time for T-Fest.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
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Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
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things, large and small.
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