November 4, 2025 • 24 mins
Roger welcomes Ben Rothove, editor-in-chief of the Madison Federalist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and Elsa Johnson, managing editor of the Stanford Review, for a conversation about their experiences as student journalists and fellows in TFAS’s new Campus Transparency Fellowship, a program created to bring accountability and openness back to higher education.
They discuss the challenges of reporting on controversial topics such as DEI mandates, antisemitism, and administrative overreach, as well as the personal costs of standing up for free expression on progressive campuses. Rothove recounts his investigation into a university-sponsored sex education program that linked to explicit content, while Johnson describes her yearlong investigation into Chinese Communist Party influence at Stanford. Together they reflect on the state of free speech in academia, the fallout from recent campus controversies and how young journalists can pursue truth with courage and professionalism.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFES alumni,faculty, and friends who are
making an impact today.
I'm your host, Roger Reen.
Today, the Liberty andLeadership Podcast will focus on
a new TFES project related tobringing more transparency to
American college and universitycampuses.
(00:24):
My guests are two fellows takingpart in our campus transparency
initiative.
This is a program that will bebreaking stories on important
topics such as viewpoint-baseddiscrimination, woke university
curriculum offerings, unjustcampus discipline, and
administrative overreach.
During monthly group calls, ourTransparency Fellows interact
(00:47):
with each other and withprofessional journalists.
They attended an Augustconference in Annapolis,
Maryland, and will attendanother in early spring of 2026.
Campus Transparency Fellows havealready reported on DEI infected
academic requirements andradical student organizations.
(01:18):
Ben attended our TFAS SummerJournalism Program this year,
where he interned at NationalReview.
He's covered stories related tohigher education, politics,
entertainment, and he intends topursue a career as an
investigative journalist.
My second guest is Elsa Johnson,a student at Stanford
University, where she's managingeditor of the Stanford Review.
(01:41):
She is majoring in East AsianStudies with a focus on China
and national security and isfluent in Mandarin.
She's done research at theHoover Institution and the
Foundation for AmericanInnovation.
Elsa has reported extensively onChinese infiltration of
Stanford, both for the StanfordReview and National Outlets.
(02:01):
And she's produced reports andcommentary about Stanford's
campus culture.
Ben, Elsa, thank you for joiningthe Liberty and Leadership
Podcast.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
I think I'll start with you, Elsa, and just ask if
you could describe what drew youinto journalism on your campus.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
My interest in journalism actually started in
high school.
I grew up in Minneapolis,Minnesota, and I went to a small
Christian high school and I gotinto journalism right away.
I think I was really drawn tojust developing my writing.
And I also think that journalismis great for learning how to ask
(02:40):
good questions.
So I did journalism throughoutmy time in high school.
And then when I came toStanford, I was vaguely aware of
the Stanford Review and joinedright away.
And I just found that it wassuch a great community at
Stanford.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
Matt, tell me about your path.
SPEAKER_02 (03:00):
I'd say it was completely accidentally.
I didn't really have a superstrong interest in journalism
until I started writing for thecollege fix, right before my
freshman year of college.
And then even then, I wasn'teven particularly interested in
stories on my campus until wehad the Students for Justice in
Palestine encampment in thespring of 2024.
At that point, I really realizedthat there was a value in
(03:24):
information and sharinginformation.
So right after that, I got incontact with Ryan and Michael at
TFAS and we started gettinggoing on the Madison Federalist.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
You're part of our first class of fellows in our
TFAS Transparency Initiative.
It's intended to restore honestyand openness on campus.
What led you, Ben, to uh applyto be part of that project?
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
I knew that I was going to be doing a lot of work
for the Madison Federalist thisyear.
And when I found out about theCampus Transparency Fellowship,
I knew that it would be a reallygood compliment for what I was
already planning to do oncampus.
Is that the same for you, Elsa?
SPEAKER_01 (04:01):
Yeah.
I found out about the fellowshipshortly after I published my
investigation into CCP influenceat Stanford.
And have always really enjoyedinvestigative journalism.
And I think the Stanford Reviewdefinitely aligns with a lot of
what you guys represent at TFAS.
So yeah, it seemed like sort ofa no-brainer.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Can you talk a little bit about that story
about that you did thatdiscussed Chinese influence on
the campus at Stanford?
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
The story came about in sort of a crazy way.
I grew up going to a Chineseimmersion school.
That's how I speak Mandarin.
And I knew that I wanted tocontinue learning Mandarin and
learning more about China when Icame to college.
After my freshman year, I wasworking for the Hoover
Institution as a researchassistant.
(04:51):
And I was reached out to by thisman named Charles Chen, and he
claimed to be a Stanfordstudent.
And over time, throughout ourconversations, I realized that
there may be something moremalicious going on.
So I ended up reaching out to mybosses at Hoover and asking,
What is this?
(05:11):
Because he was trying to get meto go to China and offering to
pay, and it all seemed verystrange.
And I found out that this isactually a CCP recruitment
tactic, often used by the MSS,Ministry of State Security.
This experience sort of sent medown this rabbit hole with a
friend of mine.
(05:32):
And we spent a yearinvestigating CCP influence at
Stanford.
We talked to, you know, over adozen professors, Hoover fellow
students.
After the year we had come upwith this piece, we were really
happy with how much attention itgot.
I think, you know, maligninfluence at university is very
important.
(05:52):
And I'm glad that there's moreattention to the issue.
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
Yeah, that's amazing.
He didn't know who he wasdealing with when he tried to
recruit you.
And Ben, you've done someinvestigative journalism as well
at the University of Wisconsin.
You want to talk about one ofyour stories?
We can warn people that this maynot be for adult audiences,
depending on which story youdecide to talk about.
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
Our stories have been a little bit less national
security focused and a lot morewe probably shouldn't be paying
for that.
So the story that we used tolaunch the Madison Federalist
with was we went into the schoolsex education program.
It's one of four programs thatstudents can choose from, and
students are required to do oneof the four.
And what the program was waslike a sex education module.
(06:37):
And we found it, it included alink to a pornographic website.
And so we found a 17-year-oldstudent and said, Are you able
to access this module?
And whenever we did that, wereached out to the university
and they kind of panicked.
They took down the module beforeour article was even published.
And we still hear about thattoday.
What we have found is that thebest way to get people to read
(07:00):
our campus publication is tobreak stories that kind of force
them to read it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Obviously, people know you're a conservative on
your campus.
I grew up in Wisconsin myself.
I didn't go to Madison, but I'maware of the fact that the
University of Madison'sreputation, at least, is very
progressive.
Is it hard to be a conservativeat University of Wisconsin and
be out front like you are?
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
I'd say certainly to some degree, but kind of my big
project here is to build up likethe Madison Federalist and other
conservative organizations to bea point where it is easier to be
a conservative on this campus.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
I think Stanford is a lot more apolitical than I
thought it would be.
I think because Stanford is sucha STEM-focused school, people
tend to not care too much aboutpolitics.
But I will say that I think as aconservative woman, it is a lot
more difficult than it would befor a conservative man.
I definitely have lost a handfulof friends for being right wing.
(07:59):
And it's never fun, but I alsothink as a result, I have just
found that my conservativefriendships are that much more
important to me.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
But do some students feel like they can't speak out
in class because they might getpunished by a professor?
Does that kind of thing go on atall?
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Yeah, I we hear that all the time when we're
recruiting for like conservativestudent organizations that
people don't want to join ordon't want to speak up in their
classes.
And I think that in theaftermath of Charlie Kirk's
assassination, a lot ofprofessors at UW Madison
specifically, to be fair, noneof them were like in support of
the assassination, but they usedit as a moment to say really
(08:47):
horrible things about CharlieKirk.
And one of those professors waslike the one I took an
international studies coursefrom last year.
And I would not feel safespeaking up about my actual
views in his class.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
I think it's very similar at Stanford.
When people are interested injoining the review, you hear the
same thing like, I'm tired offeeling silenced in classes.
And I definitely think thatthere is still a very strong
left-wing bias in academia.
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
Yeah.
And so there's a lot of studentsmight practice self-censorship
to avoid being graded poorly orsomething because they're
conservative.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
One of the big controversies oncampuses was the cancellation of
conservative speakers, the lackof free speech.
We had the Chicago principlesthat have been adopted and in
many cases adhered to at anumber of campuses.
(09:36):
Stanford, I know, has had someincidences that have gained
national attention of kind ofcensorship or shouting down
speakers.
Is that improved now at Stanfordin terms of the free speech
environment and the ability ofconservatives to speak on
campus?
SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
I do think that the general campus energy is a
little more positive now.
And I've hosted and attended afew conservative events where,
you know, obviously we platforma conservative speaker, and they
have actually gone well and notbeen protested.
I will say during COVID, Dr.
(10:11):
Jay Bodhacari and Scott Atlaswere censured by the faculty
senate.
And the faculty senate stillhasn't reversed Scott Atlas's
censure.
They just did a vote, I think,last Thursday.
So there is still a lot of thissilencing rhetoric, but I do
think that things are gettingbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
Ben, you're you're active with the College of
Republicans too.
So you probably host events,especially in the wake of the
assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Is there an effort by theuniversity to require much more
like security fees before youcan do events?
Or does that hinder you frombeing able to do events on
campus?
SPEAKER_02 (10:49):
Security fees, I don't think, are as much of a
concern anymore because when wehosted Michael Knowles through
YAF, my freshman year, theuniversity tried to force YAF to
pay$4,000 in security fees andthey got a legal threat for it
and they would step back.
So I don't think that that issomething that they'll be doing
anymore.
But the thing is that we do getprotests at most big speaker
(11:11):
events.
It's just a matter of what doyou do about it.
And to some degree, it's theirfree speech right too, but
whenever you're interrupting aspeaker, that's not acceptable.
And I think that whenever theyhad the fire free speech
rankings come back this year,something like a third of UW
Madison students said it wasacceptable to occasionally shout
down speakers.
So I think that we're stilltrying to navigate a way to make
(11:32):
a difference on campus wheneverstudents believe that's
acceptable.
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
As you think about careers in journalism,
reporters, journalists, ofcourse, just like both of you
and me, we have our opinionsabout things, we have our views
on public policy.
Do you think as a reporter, youcan cover stories and how you
navigate kind of the what you'rereporting on being influenced by
views you hold?
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
You know, there's a time and a place for an opinion
piece.
I think the Stanford Reviewtends to publish more opinion
pieces in general.
I do think it's very importantto just write a piece that is
purely an analysis of facts.
Do your best to avoid insertingyour own opinion.
You know, oftentimes injournalism, it's easy to
(12:20):
discredit a good piece ofjournalistic work if you are
overly opinionated.
I think that is especially truein investigative journalism.
I think it's important that youallow other people's quotes and
your own research to shinethrough.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
I agree with Elsa.
The point is that lots of thetime, just opinion pieces,
people don't really read them.
And there is a time and a placefor reported opinion, but most
of the time the best way to makean impact is to have a piece
that's rock solid.
SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
I recall probably it was 20 years ago, now Fox News
commentator Britt Hume, who hada long career covering the White
House for ABC News, in a talk toour students, you know, he
talked about the fact that inWashington, D.C., you have
journalists who are they're partof the social life of the city,
of course.
They live here.
And he always wondered, youknow, when he sees at a dinner
(13:14):
party that, you know, somesocial event and a reporter
walks in and sees a senator.
They're obviously become veryclose friends and socially going
to the same parties.
And then can you cover someoneobjectively who's in politics
when you socialize with them inthe evening?
And it's really tough to makethat kind of separation, I
think.
And uh as a good reporter, youhave to try, as you said, Ilsa,
(13:37):
is present the facts, tell thestory.
Here's what I saw, here's what Ifound, and I'm reporting it to
you.
And I'm curious if at ourAnnapolis retreat, which we did
for the fellows on the subjectof investigative journalism, was
that helpful in some ways, andwhat ways that maybe what you
learned there was useful?
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
The Annapolis Retreat was a great way to talk
to early and mid-careerjournalists.
They helped guide us on ways toreally break new stories in a
way that is professional and away that can get as wide a reach
as possible.
So I think the CampusTransparency Fellowship kind of
helped guide us not only throughcampus journalism, but what to
(14:17):
do next.
SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Yeah, the retreat was a really great experience.
I think it was really valuableto hear from, you know,
professional journalists.
You know, another part of thefellowship that I really
appreciate is that we just havethis community of fellow student
journalists who we can bounceideas off of and really
collaborate with.
(14:38):
I particularly enjoyed the panelwith Aaron Siberium from the
Washington Free Beacon.
I think he is always gonna bevery honest with student
journalists and always givesgreat advice on what to cover,
what people care about, whatpeople don't care about.
And I think as an investigativejournalist, sometimes you just
want to investigate everythingand there's a lot to write
(14:58):
about.
You know, I think it's great tohear from these successful
journalists what is gonna beworth publishing and what's not
worth publishing.
I also really appreciate thefact that we have sort of
developed this community andwe're able to meet people who
are doing really great work injournalism.
So it was such a great time andit's a great group of students.
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
And then you do monthly calls where you can talk
to other young people in yoursituations on other campuses,
and that must reinforce some ofthat and you know help you draw
some courage out of that factthat you're all doing this
together and differentsituations.
But it does take courage to bein an environment where there's
a lot of hostility to yourviewpoints.
(15:41):
Ben, you came to our summerprogram for journalists last
summer and you interned atNational Review.
What can you tell me about thatexperience?
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
Yeah, National Review was a great time.
I had the ability to work onsome commentary and some
investigative journalism.
One of my favorite things that Idid was get to go up to Capitol
Hill pretty regularly and be oneof the reporters who sits there
and kind of yells at congressmenand says, Can I get a response
for this?
So it was a great time.
I got to kind of hop around DCand Arlington and break big
stories.
And you got answersoccasionally?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Occasionally Elsa, as a campus journalist, how can
you strive to have the mostimpact on your campus?
What kind of things do you thinkabout doing as a journalist to
have that kind of impact?
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
I think one good way of, you know, doing journalism
well and having impact is justreally leaning into your, you
know, innate sense of curiosity.
There are so many things thatare going on on campus, and
sometimes you're so busy thatyou may not notice.
But, you know, if you evernotice something interesting
(16:45):
someone said, somethinginteresting about how the
university functions, and youjust are curious about it, I
think it's really important toexplore these leads that, you
know, you sort of come up with.
And that means ask a lot ofquestions.
Take some time to just reallyget your questions answered,
talk to a lot of people.
(17:07):
I think it can be a really funthing to do.
You know, I think sometimes Iwonder why Stanford has BYD, you
know, a Chinese electric vehiclecompany, buses.
And I need to send an email andfigure out why that is.
And that could be something thatwould be really interesting to
write about.
You know, a lot of studentjournalists that I've met are
(17:28):
very brilliant people and theyhave great questions to ask and
they notice things.
And I think it's important toreally lean into that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Do you feel like after the Charlie Kirk
assassination, the campusenvironment's any different?
Did that have an impact at all?
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So we were actually weren't even in session when the
assassination occurred.
But I did write a piece on thecampus reaction to the
assassination because Stanforduses an anonymous social media
app called Fizz, and the day ofthe assassination, people were
posting just very nasty thingson Fizz.
(18:08):
And I think it was somethinglike around at least 15% of the
student body was supportingthese, you know, vile comments.
And that made me really upset.
And honestly, I was expecting alot better from the Stanford
community.
I think once we got back inschool, I don't think any of
(18:30):
those people would be willing tosay these things out loud.
And because it's an anonymousapp, they feel like they can say
things that are reallydisgusting.
I did lose friends over thepiece I wrote where I, you know,
was condemning politicalviolence and saying that we
shouldn't celebrate his murder.
So it was a weird reaction, butI hope it will get better.
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
How about at Wisconsin?
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
The universe was going to make very clear that
the chalkings we're about totalk about were not on campus
proper, but directly adjacent tocampus.
They put big Charlie Kirk isdead with a giant heart under
it.
Some guy wrote that up on it'sin between a bunch of university
buildings, but so they did thata couple of times.
I think there were three or fourplaces where this person wrote
(19:17):
that.
Then the Badger Herald, one ofthe liberal newspapers on
campus, interviewed a guy whosaid he wanted to go dance in
the street after hearing thatCharlie Kirk was shot.
There was another person in thatsame interview who said that
Charlie Kirk should be happy hegot shot.
There were many professors whowent on blue sky, said horrible
things.
I think that really kind ofshowed kind of just how bad it
(19:37):
was, rather than making a bigdifference.
But the one thing I'll say isthat the College Republicans
meeting we had the week afterwas the biggest event that I had
seen my entire time here.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
The other big event, of course, a few years ago was
the October 7th and the reactionon campus of the occupying
campuses by the pro-Palestinianpeople really sent a wake-up
call to a lot of donors.
You know, we heard a lot moreabout it on the East Coast at
some of the Ivies.
I'm sure you had that atStanford as well.
Ben mentioned it at Wisconsin.
(20:10):
Has that met with kind of abacklash to some extent among
people?
This rise of anti-Semitism is sotroubling and curious about what
that kind of is like on yourcampus.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Yeah, we did have an encampment and it lasted, you
know, for almost the entireyear.
And then it came to an abrupthalt when they broke into the
president's office and a dozenof them were arrested.
And after that, the universityjust took a very hard stance and
they've not made a return.
(20:42):
Last year, there weren't reallyany protests.
This year, you see a little bit,like some student groups who,
you know, will try to organizesomething, but they kind of fall
flat.
And I definitely think that hasbeen good for the campus
atmosphere is that theuniversity just shut it down.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
So at UW Madison, one of the main things we cover,
or at least keep a close eye on,is anti-Semitism.
But what I found this year isthat it's just a lot smaller.
Our students for justice inPalestine got removed from
campus for the semester becauseearlier in the year, Joe Biden's
former UN ambassador came tospeak on campus, and students
for justice in Palestinerepeatedly interrupted, like
(21:24):
screamed and yelled throughoutthe entire thing.
So that was the universitysuspended them.
They've held not students forjustice in Palestine, but
organizations that were createdafter and have the same cause,
same people, everything, haveheld like some vigils or small
protests or anything, but it'sjust nothing like it was a year
or two ago.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Well, so overall, Ben, are you feeling pretty
optimistic about the future forour country and for what your
generation can do to make thisworld a better place?
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
I think I'm optimistic.
Or at the very least, I at leastthink that we have the
possibility for change.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Positive change.
Yeah.
Good.
How about you, Elsa?
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
Yeah, I am optimistic.
Ben was, you know, saying thisabout UW's response to the Kirk
assassination, but you know,after this summer, there has
been a huge resurgence in peoplewho are willing to be more
outspokenly conservative.
And I think that is a greatsign.
(22:19):
And it's really exciting thatthere are so many people who are
coming up with the courage tofeel okay voicing their opinions
and putting on events andcreating these, you know,
conservative communities forstudents on campus.
So I am very hopeful.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
I feel like with the students we come into contact
with that the Fund for AmericanStudies, it makes me optimistic.
I mean, I think a lot of thestudents over the years I find
have become more serious aboutthe world.
They come to our programs kindof thinking, well, what kind of
job can I find?
What career should I pursue?
They're, you know, focused onwhat they can do to contribute
(22:58):
to the world and get along inthe world, get ahead in the
world.
And, you know, our challenge, Ithink, for both of you and us at
the Fund for American Studies isto show them how human
flourishing is the result ofgiving people individual liberty
and economic freedom to usetheir talents as best they can
to pursue their self-interestand in doing so make the world a
better place.
(23:18):
So I appreciate you coming ontoday.
I very much we appreciate whatyou're doing on your campuses to
cover stories there and areproud to call you fellows in our
Transparency Initiative.
So thank you both.
You probably have class to getto or a story to go cover.
So I will let you go.
Uh, but thanks for being withme.
(23:39):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership Podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfas.org.
And be sure to subscribe to theshow on your favorite podcast
app and leave a five starreview.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
(24:02):
I'm your host, Roger Reim, anduntil next time, show courage in
things large and small.
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFES alumni,faculty, and friends who are
making an impact today.
I'm your host, Roger Reen.
Today, the Liberty andLeadership Podcast will focus on
a new TFES project related tobringing more transparency to
American college and universitycampuses.
(00:24):
My guests are two fellows takingpart in our campus transparency
initiative.
This is a program that will bebreaking stories on important
topics such as viewpoint-baseddiscrimination, woke university
curriculum offerings, unjustcampus discipline, and
administrative overreach.
During monthly group calls, ourTransparency Fellows interact
(00:47):
with each other and withprofessional journalists.
They attended an Augustconference in Annapolis,
Maryland, and will attendanother in early spring of 2026.
Campus Transparency Fellows havealready reported on DEI infected
academic requirements andradical student organizations.
(01:18):
Ben attended our TFAS SummerJournalism Program this year,
where he interned at NationalReview.
He's covered stories related tohigher education, politics,
entertainment, and he intends topursue a career as an
investigative journalist.
My second guest is Elsa Johnson,a student at Stanford
University, where she's managingeditor of the Stanford Review.
(01:41):
She is majoring in East AsianStudies with a focus on China
and national security and isfluent in Mandarin.
She's done research at theHoover Institution and the
Foundation for AmericanInnovation.
Elsa has reported extensively onChinese infiltration of
Stanford, both for the StanfordReview and National Outlets.
(02:01):
And she's produced reports andcommentary about Stanford's
campus culture.
Ben, Elsa, thank you for joiningthe Liberty and Leadership
Podcast.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
I think I'll start with you, Elsa, and just ask if
you could describe what drew youinto journalism on your campus.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
My interest in journalism actually started in
high school.
I grew up in Minneapolis,Minnesota, and I went to a small
Christian high school and I gotinto journalism right away.
I think I was really drawn tojust developing my writing.
And I also think that journalismis great for learning how to ask
(02:40):
good questions.
So I did journalism throughoutmy time in high school.
And then when I came toStanford, I was vaguely aware of
the Stanford Review and joinedright away.
And I just found that it wassuch a great community at
Stanford.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
Matt, tell me about your path.
SPEAKER_02 (03:00):
I'd say it was completely accidentally.
I didn't really have a superstrong interest in journalism
until I started writing for thecollege fix, right before my
freshman year of college.
And then even then, I wasn'teven particularly interested in
stories on my campus until wehad the Students for Justice in
Palestine encampment in thespring of 2024.
At that point, I really realizedthat there was a value in
(03:24):
information and sharinginformation.
So right after that, I got incontact with Ryan and Michael at
TFAS and we started gettinggoing on the Madison Federalist.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
You're part of our first class of fellows in our
TFAS Transparency Initiative.
It's intended to restore honestyand openness on campus.
What led you, Ben, to uh applyto be part of that project?
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
I knew that I was going to be doing a lot of work
for the Madison Federalist thisyear.
And when I found out about theCampus Transparency Fellowship,
I knew that it would be a reallygood compliment for what I was
already planning to do oncampus.
Is that the same for you, Elsa?
SPEAKER_01 (04:01):
Yeah.
I found out about the fellowshipshortly after I published my
investigation into CCP influenceat Stanford.
And have always really enjoyedinvestigative journalism.
And I think the Stanford Reviewdefinitely aligns with a lot of
what you guys represent at TFAS.
So yeah, it seemed like sort ofa no-brainer.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Can you talk a little bit about that story
about that you did thatdiscussed Chinese influence on
the campus at Stanford?
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
The story came about in sort of a crazy way.
I grew up going to a Chineseimmersion school.
That's how I speak Mandarin.
And I knew that I wanted tocontinue learning Mandarin and
learning more about China when Icame to college.
After my freshman year, I wasworking for the Hoover
Institution as a researchassistant.
(04:51):
And I was reached out to by thisman named Charles Chen, and he
claimed to be a Stanfordstudent.
And over time, throughout ourconversations, I realized that
there may be something moremalicious going on.
So I ended up reaching out to mybosses at Hoover and asking,
What is this?
(05:11):
Because he was trying to get meto go to China and offering to
pay, and it all seemed verystrange.
And I found out that this isactually a CCP recruitment
tactic, often used by the MSS,Ministry of State Security.
This experience sort of sent medown this rabbit hole with a
friend of mine.
(05:32):
And we spent a yearinvestigating CCP influence at
Stanford.
We talked to, you know, over adozen professors, Hoover fellow
students.
After the year we had come upwith this piece, we were really
happy with how much attention itgot.
I think, you know, maligninfluence at university is very
important.
(05:52):
And I'm glad that there's moreattention to the issue.
SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
Yeah, that's amazing.
He didn't know who he wasdealing with when he tried to
recruit you.
And Ben, you've done someinvestigative journalism as well
at the University of Wisconsin.
You want to talk about one ofyour stories?
We can warn people that this maynot be for adult audiences,
depending on which story youdecide to talk about.
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
Our stories have been a little bit less national
security focused and a lot morewe probably shouldn't be paying
for that.
So the story that we used tolaunch the Madison Federalist
with was we went into the schoolsex education program.
It's one of four programs thatstudents can choose from, and
students are required to do oneof the four.
And what the program was waslike a sex education module.
(06:37):
And we found it, it included alink to a pornographic website.
And so we found a 17-year-oldstudent and said, Are you able
to access this module?
And whenever we did that, wereached out to the university
and they kind of panicked.
They took down the module beforeour article was even published.
And we still hear about thattoday.
What we have found is that thebest way to get people to read
(07:00):
our campus publication is tobreak stories that kind of force
them to read it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Obviously, people know you're a conservative on
your campus.
I grew up in Wisconsin myself.
I didn't go to Madison, but I'maware of the fact that the
University of Madison'sreputation, at least, is very
progressive.
Is it hard to be a conservativeat University of Wisconsin and
be out front like you are?
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
I'd say certainly to some degree, but kind of my big
project here is to build up likethe Madison Federalist and other
conservative organizations to bea point where it is easier to be
a conservative on this campus.
SPEAKER_01 (07:34):
I think Stanford is a lot more apolitical than I
thought it would be.
I think because Stanford is sucha STEM-focused school, people
tend to not care too much aboutpolitics.
But I will say that I think as aconservative woman, it is a lot
more difficult than it would befor a conservative man.
I definitely have lost a handfulof friends for being right wing.
(07:59):
And it's never fun, but I alsothink as a result, I have just
found that my conservativefriendships are that much more
important to me.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
But do some students feel like they can't speak out
in class because they might getpunished by a professor?
Does that kind of thing go on atall?
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Yeah, I we hear that all the time when we're
recruiting for like conservativestudent organizations that
people don't want to join ordon't want to speak up in their
classes.
And I think that in theaftermath of Charlie Kirk's
assassination, a lot ofprofessors at UW Madison
specifically, to be fair, noneof them were like in support of
the assassination, but they usedit as a moment to say really
(08:47):
horrible things about CharlieKirk.
And one of those professors waslike the one I took an
international studies coursefrom last year.
And I would not feel safespeaking up about my actual
views in his class.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
I think it's very similar at Stanford.
When people are interested injoining the review, you hear the
same thing like, I'm tired offeeling silenced in classes.
And I definitely think thatthere is still a very strong
left-wing bias in academia.
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
Yeah.
And so there's a lot of studentsmight practice self-censorship
to avoid being graded poorly orsomething because they're
conservative.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
One of the big controversies oncampuses was the cancellation of
conservative speakers, the lackof free speech.
We had the Chicago principlesthat have been adopted and in
many cases adhered to at anumber of campuses.
(09:36):
Stanford, I know, has had someincidences that have gained
national attention of kind ofcensorship or shouting down
speakers.
Is that improved now at Stanfordin terms of the free speech
environment and the ability ofconservatives to speak on
campus?
SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
I do think that the general campus energy is a
little more positive now.
And I've hosted and attended afew conservative events where,
you know, obviously we platforma conservative speaker, and they
have actually gone well and notbeen protested.
I will say during COVID, Dr.
(10:11):
Jay Bodhacari and Scott Atlaswere censured by the faculty
senate.
And the faculty senate stillhasn't reversed Scott Atlas's
censure.
They just did a vote, I think,last Thursday.
So there is still a lot of thissilencing rhetoric, but I do
think that things are gettingbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
Ben, you're you're active with the College of
Republicans too.
So you probably host events,especially in the wake of the
assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Is there an effort by theuniversity to require much more
like security fees before youcan do events?
Or does that hinder you frombeing able to do events on
campus?
SPEAKER_02 (10:49):
Security fees, I don't think, are as much of a
concern anymore because when wehosted Michael Knowles through
YAF, my freshman year, theuniversity tried to force YAF to
pay$4,000 in security fees andthey got a legal threat for it
and they would step back.
So I don't think that that issomething that they'll be doing
anymore.
But the thing is that we do getprotests at most big speaker
(11:11):
events.
It's just a matter of what doyou do about it.
And to some degree, it's theirfree speech right too, but
whenever you're interrupting aspeaker, that's not acceptable.
And I think that whenever theyhad the fire free speech
rankings come back this year,something like a third of UW
Madison students said it wasacceptable to occasionally shout
down speakers.
So I think that we're stilltrying to navigate a way to make
(11:32):
a difference on campus wheneverstudents believe that's
acceptable.
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
As you think about careers in journalism,
reporters, journalists, ofcourse, just like both of you
and me, we have our opinionsabout things, we have our views
on public policy.
Do you think as a reporter, youcan cover stories and how you
navigate kind of the what you'rereporting on being influenced by
views you hold?
SPEAKER_01 (11:57):
You know, there's a time and a place for an opinion
piece.
I think the Stanford Reviewtends to publish more opinion
pieces in general.
I do think it's very importantto just write a piece that is
purely an analysis of facts.
Do your best to avoid insertingyour own opinion.
You know, oftentimes injournalism, it's easy to
(12:20):
discredit a good piece ofjournalistic work if you are
overly opinionated.
I think that is especially truein investigative journalism.
I think it's important that youallow other people's quotes and
your own research to shinethrough.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
I agree with Elsa.
The point is that lots of thetime, just opinion pieces,
people don't really read them.
And there is a time and a placefor reported opinion, but most
of the time the best way to makean impact is to have a piece
that's rock solid.
SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
I recall probably it was 20 years ago, now Fox News
commentator Britt Hume, who hada long career covering the White
House for ABC News, in a talk toour students, you know, he
talked about the fact that inWashington, D.C., you have
journalists who are they're partof the social life of the city,
of course.
They live here.
And he always wondered, youknow, when he sees at a dinner
(13:14):
party that, you know, somesocial event and a reporter
walks in and sees a senator.
They're obviously become veryclose friends and socially going
to the same parties.
And then can you cover someoneobjectively who's in politics
when you socialize with them inthe evening?
And it's really tough to makethat kind of separation, I
think.
And uh as a good reporter, youhave to try, as you said, Ilsa,
(13:37):
is present the facts, tell thestory.
Here's what I saw, here's what Ifound, and I'm reporting it to
you.
And I'm curious if at ourAnnapolis retreat, which we did
for the fellows on the subjectof investigative journalism, was
that helpful in some ways, andwhat ways that maybe what you
learned there was useful?
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
The Annapolis Retreat was a great way to talk
to early and mid-careerjournalists.
They helped guide us on ways toreally break new stories in a
way that is professional and away that can get as wide a reach
as possible.
So I think the CampusTransparency Fellowship kind of
helped guide us not only throughcampus journalism, but what to
(14:17):
do next.
SPEAKER_01 (14:18):
Yeah, the retreat was a really great experience.
I think it was really valuableto hear from, you know,
professional journalists.
You know, another part of thefellowship that I really
appreciate is that we just havethis community of fellow student
journalists who we can bounceideas off of and really
collaborate with.
(14:38):
I particularly enjoyed the panelwith Aaron Siberium from the
Washington Free Beacon.
I think he is always gonna bevery honest with student
journalists and always givesgreat advice on what to cover,
what people care about, whatpeople don't care about.
And I think as an investigativejournalist, sometimes you just
want to investigate everythingand there's a lot to write
(14:58):
about.
You know, I think it's great tohear from these successful
journalists what is gonna beworth publishing and what's not
worth publishing.
I also really appreciate thefact that we have sort of
developed this community andwe're able to meet people who
are doing really great work injournalism.
So it was such a great time andit's a great group of students.
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
And then you do monthly calls where you can talk
to other young people in yoursituations on other campuses,
and that must reinforce some ofthat and you know help you draw
some courage out of that factthat you're all doing this
together and differentsituations.
But it does take courage to bein an environment where there's
a lot of hostility to yourviewpoints.
(15:41):
Ben, you came to our summerprogram for journalists last
summer and you interned atNational Review.
What can you tell me about thatexperience?
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
Yeah, National Review was a great time.
I had the ability to work onsome commentary and some
investigative journalism.
One of my favorite things that Idid was get to go up to Capitol
Hill pretty regularly and be oneof the reporters who sits there
and kind of yells at congressmenand says, Can I get a response
for this?
So it was a great time.
I got to kind of hop around DCand Arlington and break big
stories.
And you got answersoccasionally?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Occasionally Elsa, as a campus journalist, how can
you strive to have the mostimpact on your campus?
What kind of things do you thinkabout doing as a journalist to
have that kind of impact?
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
I think one good way of, you know, doing journalism
well and having impact is justreally leaning into your, you
know, innate sense of curiosity.
There are so many things thatare going on on campus, and
sometimes you're so busy thatyou may not notice.
But, you know, if you evernotice something interesting
(16:45):
someone said, somethinginteresting about how the
university functions, and youjust are curious about it, I
think it's really important toexplore these leads that, you
know, you sort of come up with.
And that means ask a lot ofquestions.
Take some time to just reallyget your questions answered,
talk to a lot of people.
(17:07):
I think it can be a really funthing to do.
You know, I think sometimes Iwonder why Stanford has BYD, you
know, a Chinese electric vehiclecompany, buses.
And I need to send an email andfigure out why that is.
And that could be something thatwould be really interesting to
write about.
You know, a lot of studentjournalists that I've met are
(17:28):
very brilliant people and theyhave great questions to ask and
they notice things.
And I think it's important toreally lean into that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Do you feel like after the Charlie Kirk
assassination, the campusenvironment's any different?
Did that have an impact at all?
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So we were actually weren't even in session when the
assassination occurred.
But I did write a piece on thecampus reaction to the
assassination because Stanforduses an anonymous social media
app called Fizz, and the day ofthe assassination, people were
posting just very nasty thingson Fizz.
(18:08):
And I think it was somethinglike around at least 15% of the
student body was supportingthese, you know, vile comments.
And that made me really upset.
And honestly, I was expecting alot better from the Stanford
community.
I think once we got back inschool, I don't think any of
(18:30):
those people would be willing tosay these things out loud.
And because it's an anonymousapp, they feel like they can say
things that are reallydisgusting.
I did lose friends over thepiece I wrote where I, you know,
was condemning politicalviolence and saying that we
shouldn't celebrate his murder.
So it was a weird reaction, butI hope it will get better.
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
How about at Wisconsin?
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
The universe was going to make very clear that
the chalkings we're about totalk about were not on campus
proper, but directly adjacent tocampus.
They put big Charlie Kirk isdead with a giant heart under
it.
Some guy wrote that up on it'sin between a bunch of university
buildings, but so they did thata couple of times.
I think there were three or fourplaces where this person wrote
(19:17):
that.
Then the Badger Herald, one ofthe liberal newspapers on
campus, interviewed a guy whosaid he wanted to go dance in
the street after hearing thatCharlie Kirk was shot.
There was another person in thatsame interview who said that
Charlie Kirk should be happy hegot shot.
There were many professors whowent on blue sky, said horrible
things.
I think that really kind ofshowed kind of just how bad it
(19:37):
was, rather than making a bigdifference.
But the one thing I'll say isthat the College Republicans
meeting we had the week afterwas the biggest event that I had
seen my entire time here.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
The other big event, of course, a few years ago was
the October 7th and the reactionon campus of the occupying
campuses by the pro-Palestinianpeople really sent a wake-up
call to a lot of donors.
You know, we heard a lot moreabout it on the East Coast at
some of the Ivies.
I'm sure you had that atStanford as well.
Ben mentioned it at Wisconsin.
(20:10):
Has that met with kind of abacklash to some extent among
people?
This rise of anti-Semitism is sotroubling and curious about what
that kind of is like on yourcampus.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Yeah, we did have an encampment and it lasted, you
know, for almost the entireyear.
And then it came to an abrupthalt when they broke into the
president's office and a dozenof them were arrested.
And after that, the universityjust took a very hard stance and
they've not made a return.
(20:42):
Last year, there weren't reallyany protests.
This year, you see a little bit,like some student groups who,
you know, will try to organizesomething, but they kind of fall
flat.
And I definitely think that hasbeen good for the campus
atmosphere is that theuniversity just shut it down.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
So at UW Madison, one of the main things we cover,
or at least keep a close eye on,is anti-Semitism.
But what I found this year isthat it's just a lot smaller.
Our students for justice inPalestine got removed from
campus for the semester becauseearlier in the year, Joe Biden's
former UN ambassador came tospeak on campus, and students
for justice in Palestinerepeatedly interrupted, like
(21:24):
screamed and yelled throughoutthe entire thing.
So that was the universitysuspended them.
They've held not students forjustice in Palestine, but
organizations that were createdafter and have the same cause,
same people, everything, haveheld like some vigils or small
protests or anything, but it'sjust nothing like it was a year
or two ago.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Well, so overall, Ben, are you feeling pretty
optimistic about the future forour country and for what your
generation can do to make thisworld a better place?
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
I think I'm optimistic.
Or at the very least, I at leastthink that we have the
possibility for change.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Positive change.
Yeah.
Good.
How about you, Elsa?
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
Yeah, I am optimistic.
Ben was, you know, saying thisabout UW's response to the Kirk
assassination, but you know,after this summer, there has
been a huge resurgence in peoplewho are willing to be more
outspokenly conservative.
And I think that is a greatsign.
(22:19):
And it's really exciting thatthere are so many people who are
coming up with the courage tofeel okay voicing their opinions
and putting on events andcreating these, you know,
conservative communities forstudents on campus.
So I am very hopeful.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
I feel like with the students we come into contact
with that the Fund for AmericanStudies, it makes me optimistic.
I mean, I think a lot of thestudents over the years I find
have become more serious aboutthe world.
They come to our programs kindof thinking, well, what kind of
job can I find?
What career should I pursue?
They're, you know, focused onwhat they can do to contribute
(22:58):
to the world and get along inthe world, get ahead in the
world.
And, you know, our challenge, Ithink, for both of you and us at
the Fund for American Studies isto show them how human
flourishing is the result ofgiving people individual liberty
and economic freedom to usetheir talents as best they can
to pursue their self-interestand in doing so make the world a
better place.
(23:18):
So I appreciate you coming ontoday.
I very much we appreciate whatyou're doing on your campuses to
cover stories there and areproud to call you fellows in our
Transparency Initiative.
So thank you both.
You probably have class to getto or a story to go cover.
So I will let you go.
Uh, but thanks for being withme.
(23:39):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership Podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfas.org.
And be sure to subscribe to theshow on your favorite podcast
app and leave a five starreview.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
(24:02):
I'm your host, Roger Reim, anduntil next time, show courage in
things large and small.
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