November 25, 2025 • 29 mins
Roger welcomes Amanda Stiglbauer, a longtime mentor and instructor with TFAS’s high school division, the Foundation for Teaching Economics (FTE), for a conversation about teaching economics in a way that connects with students and helps them understand the world. Amanda, who recently joined TFAS as FTE’s economic education curriculum fellow, shares how her early love of teaching merged with a growing passion for economics and how discovering the economic way of thinking gave her a framework for understanding choice, incentives, prices and the world around her.
They discuss the challenges of improving economic literacy in American classrooms, the importance of active learning and the impact of FTE’s interactive programs. Additional topics include supply and demand, the true cost of tariffs, the differences between personal finance and economics education, the role of institutions in long-term prosperity, the relevance of the Economic Freedom Index and FTE’s new curriculum initiatives, such as The Realities of Socialism and Economic Forces in American Civics for the America 250 celebration.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty, and friends who are
making an impact today.
I'm your host, Roger Reed.
I'm pleased to welcome AmandaStigelbauer to Liberty and
Leadership.
Amanda is an AP economicsteacher in Lexington, South
(00:23):
Carolina.
She is a master teacher at theCouncil on Economic Education
and has also served as a mentorand teacher at our Foundation
for Teaching Economics, or FTE.
At FDE, which has been part ofthe Fund for American Studies
since 2013, Amanda leadsinstruction in four program
(00:45):
areas Economics for Leaders,Economics for Teachers, Economic
Forces in American histories,and our newest curriculum, The
Realities of Socialism.
Amanda currently serves as FTE'sEconomic Education Curriculum
Fellow and is developingeconomic forces in American
(01:05):
civics to celebrate the 250thanniversary of the Declaration
of Independence next year.
Amanda is an author of severaleducational resources, including
lessons on Econ Edlink and theTeacher's Guide for AP
microeconomics and APmacroeconomics.
(01:25):
She is the 2019 recipient of theJohn Morton Excellence in
Teaching Economics Awardpresented by the Council on
Economic Education, and she is afierce advocate for the
discipline of economics at thestate and national level.
Amanda, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Thank you so much, Roger.
It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Clearly, you've devoted your career to the
subject of economics.
What inspired you to be sopassionate about the topic?
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
That's a great question.
So from a very early age, Ialways knew I wanted to be a
teacher.
I think I was teaching mybrother out of books probably by
the age of three or four, and hewas my loyal student.
And it took me a while to figureout what I actually wanted to
teach because I just lovedlearning so much.
(02:16):
So when I went to college, Ithought, well, maybe I'll major
in elementary education becauseI love children.
But I also had a really deepdesire to learn more in history
and then enter my firsteconomics class.
Economics truly enlightened meto how to understand the world
around me.
And from that time, probably aweek or two into the course, I
(02:39):
had my sorority sisters on mydorm room floor who did not
understand economics that seemedreally interesting to me.
I mean, I had a natural knackfor it.
So I tutored them on Tuesdaysand Thursdays on our floor in
our dorm room.
And it was then that I realizedI really want to be an economics
teacher.
And so the rest is history.
(03:00):
I've devoted the rest of mycareer to studying the different
areas of economics and how itplays into history, how it plays
into civics, the economics ofthe environment, and how liberty
and freedom are important foreconomic institutions around the
world.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
Well, you must have had an outstanding economics
professor who taught you thateconomics is really about the
way the world works and hasthese broad implications and
applications as well.
I want to dig a little deeperthere because I feel the same
way myself, but was it just kindof thinking about how through
price systems and supply anddemand resources get allocated
(03:39):
to their highest use and it justkind of pulls everything
together?
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Yeah.
So I think definitely looking atthe pricing system and the
importance of supply and demandand understanding that there's
really no entity that setsprices.
It's the interaction of supplyand demand and the invisible
hand that makes resourcesallocate to the places that
they're most needed.
And I also really enjoyed, I wasone of those kind of strange
(04:04):
people who really enjoyedlearning about the Federal
Reserve and how interest ratesare determined in a market.
And that kind of leads into alot of implications for personal
finance education as well.
I also thought it was reallyinteresting just to boil it down
to the economics of choice.
Every second of every day, weare making decisions.
(04:26):
And those decisions areeconomics decisions.
So we're weighing our costs andour benefits in every situation
we face.
And those situations are fraughtwith opportunity costs that we
have to consider.
And so as a young collegestudent that was definitely at
the forefront of my mind if I'mmajoring in economics, it was
truly an economic decision forme.
(04:48):
I knew that I wanted to teach,but I also understood that after
five years of teaching, mostteachers find another career.
And so I wanted to find a backupplan that I was very prepared to
enjoy.
And economics was definitely theone, the subject that turned me
on the most.
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
What has been your experience in terms of how the
subject is generally taught inAmerican classrooms?
Do you think students find theseprinciples hard to grasp?
Did your sorority sisters, forinstance, find them hard to
grasp, but more so at the highschool level?
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Yeah.
So I think that both at thecollege level and at the high
school level, sometimes theseare hard concepts to boil down
to basic human understanding.
I think that one of the thingsthat really turned me on to
economics and helped me topropel into a good economics
teacher is to making economicsapplicable to what's going on
(05:45):
around in the world and beingpassionate.
So students, even my sororitysisters at the time, when I was
18 years old, they saw that Iwas really passionate about what
I was sharing with them.
And even though it was hard tounderstand at the time, boiling
it down to the basic principlesand the ideas of choice, those
(06:07):
things really resonated withthem.
So whether it was talking aboutif you're if you're gonna spend
the night studying or if you'regonna spend the night out at a
fraternity party, those areeconomic decisions that they
faced.
And those were definitely thingsthat they were able to relate
to.
So whether it was talking withcollege students or the high
(06:29):
school students I see every day,making it about them and making
it something that they'reinterested in and truly showing
them how passionate you areabout the subject really makes a
difference.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
FTE has taken great pride in adopting an approach
that uses activities in theclassroom to illustrate economic
concepts and hopefully givethose concepts a stickiness that
stays with the students who doour programs.
And I think some of this stemmedfrom the influence of Rose and
Milton Friedman, who were veryinvolved with FTE in the 1980s,
(07:06):
and Rose Friedman, I think atleast served on the board of the
organization for many years.
But what kind of strategies andclassroom activities have you
found effective in making theeconomic way of thinking come
alive for students?
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
So I think that one of the reasons that I'm the
teacher that I am today isbecause of the interactive
simulations that FTE has triedand tested and proven for so
many years.
So in my classroom, myphilosophy is that whoever's
doing the talking is doing thelearning.
And so I love for it to be avery active and for lack of a
(07:42):
better term, loud atmospherewhere students are talking about
the concepts or they'reinteracting in a simulation that
is based on market principles ofsupply and demand, where they
are either producers orconsumers and they're trying to
either purchase or sell a goodlike a computer chip, like one
of our favorite FTE activitiesin the chips.
(08:04):
And so that is an interactivesimulation where it's truly a
marketplace and it gets reallyloud, but that's where the
learning occurs.
So we could lecture all day longabout how the interaction of
supply and demand and thecreation of that X between them
creates a price and quantity.
But as students are able to seeand actually feel that price
(08:28):
emerge in the market throughsimulations like in the chips,
that's where the real learningoccurs.
And so I think not just thatactivity, but others as well,
really helps students tosolidify not only their
understanding, but to create apassion and love of economics
from an early age.
SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
So do you think, related to what you just said,
that you can help your studentsthen connect the economic
concepts not only to theireveryday life, you know, whether
to study or go out and party,but about kind of current events
and issues that we grapple within our country.
SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
Absolutely.
So even with the most recentexample of in the chips, that
how prices are determined in amarketplace, it's so common to
hear students and adults say,well, the president sets the
price of gas.
And so doing a simulation likethis, we can turn them around
and say, well, we have a verymarket-based economy with very
(09:25):
little government intervention.
And so did we see that thegovernment sets the price of
gas, or do the interaction ofproducers and consumers together
create this magical price andquantity that is exchanged in a
marketplace?
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
Well, for people listening today who might not be
that familiar with our Economicsfor Leaders program, could you
describe what it is and also howyou got first got involved in
FTE?
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Absolutely.
So the Economics for Leadersprogram is, I think, one of my
absolute favorite FTEexperiences.
So we recruit high schoolstudents, generally sophomores
and juniors in high school, whohave an interest in both
economics or business andleadership skills as well.
(10:12):
And so we bring them to collegecampuses around the country.
So whether it be Yale, SMU, OhioState, Berkeley, a lot of the
prestigious universities thatthey want to get a first-hand
glimpse at.
And we teach them economicprinciples in the morning using
our amazing professors who arevetted by FTE.
(10:34):
And we also conduct the economicexperiments and simulations with
a mentor teacher like me in themornings as well.
In the afternoons, they um theylearn more about leadership
principles.
So not only do they they havelectures, but most of it is
activity-based, where they getthe hands-on experience of what
(10:55):
the characteristics are of goodleaders and how to exhibit those
as well.
So that's a little synopsisabout the EFL program.
I first got involved with FTE asa first-year teacher.
I think, I think it's prettyevident that I really love to
learn.
And so I'm a sponge that lovesto soak up everything.
(11:17):
I started my career as a middleschool teacher, and uh I wanted
desperately to teach economicsin high school.
Job market was really tight atthat point.
It was before the 2008 financialcrisis.
And so it was hard to permeatethat market, especially as a 21,
22-year-old person who wasstraight out of college.
(11:38):
So I wanted to gain as muchknowledge and experience as I
could with best practices inteaching economics.
So I found FTE.
My husband is also an economicsteacher, and we just latched on
to as many of the workshops aswe could.
And I still use so many of theprinciples that I learned in the
(12:00):
very first workshop with mystudents today.
SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
You made a mention earlier of personal finance
courses.
And I know there are a number ofstates, I think it's more than
30 now, that require some sortof course in high school in
either economics or personalfinance.
And I know those are verydifferent courses, and both
probably very important courses,but is there sometimes confusion
(12:23):
between students who are takingpersonal finance versus really
learning the economic way ofthinking in an economics class?
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Yeah, there has been such a growing trend with
personal finance education,sometimes at the expense of
economics education.
States are passing laws that saypersonal finance is now a
requirement.
You can take personal financeinstead of economics.
And I know some states havescrapped economics altogether,
which is really sad because theyare, as you said, two very
(12:53):
different subject areas.
When their parents come in onopen house night, they think, oh
yes, you're going to teach mystudent how to write a check and
you're going to teach them howto balance a budget.
And in South Carolina, where Iteach, that's actually true
because we have what we call ahybrid course in economics and
personal finance.
But now there's a push to haveboth standalone economics and
(13:16):
personal finance courses.
So there is a lot of confusion.
Most people, a lot of times,unfortunately, I feel like they
err on the side of we needpersonal finance.
And as you said, personalfinance is so important.
But economics and understandingthe world around us, the
policies that we're voting foror not voting for, and how the
world around us works is equallyas important.
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
There's obviously a lack of economic literacy in our
country.
And at the highest levels, yousee that I haven't seen any
recent surveys.
In fact, we should probablyconduct one of members of
Congress to find out how manyhave taken at least one
economics course, how many havemajored in economics, or have
come from careers in business.
Most of them are lawyers.
I saw something the other day.
(14:00):
There are only a handful ofengineers in Congress.
It's almost all lawyers, andlawyers tend to obstruct
progress and building andcreation.
But do you think if we hadbetter economic literacy in this
country, it might mean bettertrade policy, better regulatory
and energy policy, and improvethe conduct of economic policy
at the highest levels?
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Loaded question.
But yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Very loaded, very loaded.
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
When I teach about some of these hot topic issues
like tariffs.
Tariffs are one of my favoritethings to teach about now.
I like to code it witheconomics, it doesn't have to be
so political.
Economics is economics, and atariff is a tax on a foreign
good.
And what we have seen over andover again is that a tariff is
(14:47):
not paid by the foreign country.
It is paid by the Americanconsumer in the form of higher
prices.
And so when we have so muchrhetoric around higher price
levels, we have inflation, andwe continue to implement tariff
policies 50%, 100% tariffs onother nations, it makes things
pretty difficult for theAmerican consumer.
(15:10):
And so I think like that idea ofeconomic literacy, understanding
what the policies are that weare supporting, what impact
those will have truly on theAmerican people is so important.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
And I think FTE has developed an activity on tariffs
as well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
Yeah.
So FTE has a great program fortariffs.
There is an activity that wecall Tic-Tac-Toe Tariff.
And just like any othersimulation we do, most of them
involve some sort of candy.
And so the students in theactivity are asked to rate their
favorite dum-dum flavors.
(15:47):
So the activity centers aroundthe trading of dum-dums.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Which are lollipops of some kind, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Lollipops of some sort.
So there are about 15 differentflavors of them, and they rank
them.
And during the course of twodifferent rounds, they are
trying to improve theirsatisfaction.
They're trying to get thelollipops that they desire most.
For me, it would be thebubblegum lollipops.
I would try to get a marketbasket of three bubblegum
(16:13):
lollipops, but I've learned thatour students, they love the blue
raspberry lollipops.
So they're trying to improvetheir satisfaction from their
original basket to the one thatthey have at the end of each
round.
And in round one, they are facedwith trade with a tariff.
So divided into two differentcountries, Country X and Country
(16:33):
O, they're still allowed totrade because just like with a
tariff, you're still allowed totrade with another country, but
you still must have to pay aprice.
And when we look at that, thatcost is playing a game of
tic-tac-toe with a person fromanother country that you'd like
to trade with.
So we increase the transactioncosts like that so that they can
(16:54):
see that a tariff imposesbarriers, imposes a cost on the
producer and the consumer.
And then we have them compare ina second round how that compares
to a round of free trade, inwhich there is no tariff,
there's no game of tic-tac-toeor cost associated with trading
with a person from anothercountry.
(17:14):
And it's really interesting tosee.
We do a very quantitative lookat this, what their happiness
points are from round one versuswhat their happiness points are
with free trade in round two.
And always we see a rise inconsumer satisfaction.
SPEAKER_01 (17:31):
When I introduced you, I mentioned that you were
awarded the John MortonExcellence in Teaching Award
from the Council on EconomicEducation.
Tell me about that award andwhat that recognition meant to
you as a sign of youreffectiveness as a teacher.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
It's one of my favorite memories.
I was nominated by my statecouncil.
So the John Morton Excellence inTeaching Economics Award for the
Council on Economic Education isessentially the National
Economics Teacher of the Yearaward.
So select one middle, one high,and one elementary school
teacher each year.
And the state of South Carolinasubmitted my name and
(18:08):
application in 2019.
And I had absolutely no ideathat I would be considered one
of the top economics teachers inthe country.
So I found out that I had beenawarded the Morton Award as my
family and administrators andcouncil members came into my
(18:29):
classroom on pajama day.
I was wearing a Grinch pajamaonesie.
So it was just absolutelyphenomenal.
So they surprised me with theaward and flowers, and my
children, who I think were, ohgosh, they were tiny at the
time, twin girls.
They all showed up in myclassroom and my principal
(18:50):
awarded the award.
And it was truly one of my mostmemorable moments, I think.
And then from there, they flewme to LA, where the conference
was that year.
And I was able to give a speechto all of the attendees about
the importance of economicseducation.
And I really started to push forthe importance of economic
(19:13):
education and personal financeeducation.
And that economics should neverbe at the expense of personal
finance as the growing tide wasseeming to come.
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
One of the things I know you've just been putting
some energy into is the America250 celebration next year that
our country will be enjoying.
Can you comment a little bit onthe connection between economics
and kind of the Americanfounding and how economics plays
a role into that conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Absolutely.
I am so excited that this is theprogram that we are working on
during this year, and especiallyas important as it is to
celebrate America 250.
So as we look at the creation ofthis program and the
celebration, I think it's soimportant to highlight some of
the key ideas that our foundingfathers had.
(20:07):
The importance of making surethat life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness is just asattainable today as they desired
it to be 250 years ago.
When we think about this from aneconomic lens, life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness,the pursuit of happiness many
times leads us to the idea ofprosperity.
(20:30):
And so what we have seen overthe course of the last 250 years
is that America has been able touphold these important
institutions, rule of law asestablished by our Constitution,
and so many of the principlesthat our Constitution upholds,
separation of powers, which wesee on full display even today,
(20:51):
federalism.
And we also see these ideas offree markets, free and open
markets with very littlegovernment intervention.
We see the idea of theencouragement of
entrepreneurship.
Those ideas are upheld withinour constitution.
So these ideas of the thingsthat have made America
(21:12):
prosperous are the foundation.
The foundation was establishedthrough our constitution and
continues to be so important tous today and our progress.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
And in the standard economics for leaders program
that we offer students, there isan emphasis on the importance of
institutions, right?
In terms of a healthy economicsystem?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Aaron Powell There is, yes.
So throughout the course of thatweek, we continually go back to
the idea that the importance ofthe four institutions, private
property rights, rule of law,entrepreneurship, and free and
open markets are the basis forestablishing a nation that is
prosperous.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
When I talk to young people, I love talking about the
index of economic freedom.
Because they can just look atthe world and see that countries
with the greatest degree ofrespect for those four things
you just named (22:07):
private property and open markets and rule of
law, those kinds of things leadto economic prosperity.
And it's evident when you lookat the rankings that the freest
countries are the mostprosperous, the healthiest and
cleanest environments.
And do you find that that issomething you use as well in
your teaching?
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Absolutely.
I love the index of economicfreedom.
We have a couple of activitiesthat even like pinpoint why that
index is so important to lookat.
And one of the most recentpieces of curriculum that we've
put out, entrepreneurship.
There is an activity in whichstudents are tasked with trying
to find the perfect country tolocate a business.
(22:50):
And they're given someinformation about some of the
different countries.
They go to the CA World Factbookand look at some information
regarding four differentcountries that they're
investigating.
And they're trying to figure outwhere to establish the
headquarters for a business thatis creating a new app to help
other people.
(23:10):
So maybe that app is helping youdeliver your groceries, or maybe
that app is, you know, to helpyou walk your dog when you're at
work.
But it's a helping app.
And so at first they centeraround this idea of just
focusing in on how many internetusers they have and what is the
Wi-Fi speed in those countries.
So they they have a very narrowfocus when they're looking at
(23:32):
the CIA World Factbook.
But then when we reveal theEconomic Freedom Index, they
have a completely different lensand they're able to look at it
through that idea of, well, whatabout the institutions that
these countries uphold?
And how does that play intotheir ability to support
business?
(23:52):
And as you said, those placesare the ones that we see the
most prosperity and economicfreedom.
SPEAKER_01 (23:59):
Now, another area of the FTE program that you've been
involved in is the realities ofsocialism, kind of a newer
endeavor from the last few yearsin that we worked with the
Fraser Institute to developthat.
Could you just kind of brieflygive listeners an overview of
what that curriculum is about?
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
It's really fun because when we put the title
out there, The Realities ofSocialism.
Socialism is such a politicallycharged word today.
And so so many people think, oh,wow, these people are coming in
here and they're really tryingto teach us like how to be
socialists, right?
And so we continue to build onthe ideas of economic freedom.
(24:38):
We actually do take a reallyhard look at the economic
freedom of the world index inthat program as well.
Uh, but really comparing whatsocialist countries look like
and what capitalist countrieslook like based on their
institutions and their freedoms.
And so what we have found isthat most people see socialism
(25:01):
as a welfare state.
Basically, are we getting freehealth care, free, such a
four-letter F-word in economics,right?
Are we getting free orgovernment-funded programs?
Whereas when we define socialismhistorically, we're looking at
government owning the factors ofproduction.
(25:22):
So there are a lot ofmisconceptions surrounding the
term socialism versuscapitalism.
And of course, capitalismcontinues to get a bad rap, but
we have to continue to push thisidea of, well, when we look at
the economic freedom of theworld index and we look at these
countries on a spectrum of howwell they are able to uphold
these institutions, countriesthat are able to uphold the
(25:46):
institutions like rule of lawand uphold the idea of the
importance of private property,these are the countries and
societies where we seeprosperity occurring.
And those are not socialistcountries.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So the idea of city-run grocery stores may not
be that successful if it's triedin New York.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
City-run grocery stores.
Wow.
You know, we even have anactivity that tries to have
students like get into the ideaof, well, you're now running
this.
Decide on what it is that you'reproducing and how you're going
to produce it.
And they fail every time.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
And how you're going to price it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
And how you're going to price it, right?
So I like to tell them, myteachers and my students in this
program that, you know, one day,Amanda's order might be uh a
cinnamon dolce latte, half thesugar and oat milk.
But the next day, it's going tobe really hot outside.
And so I don't want that hotcinnamon dolce latte oat milk,
(26:43):
half the sweetener.
That day, I might want an icedvanilla latte from Starbucks.
Who has that knowledge?
I am the only one who has thatknowledge.
Roger Ream can't decide for mewhat it is that I want.
And if he tries to be nice oneday and brings me coffee into
the workplace, I'm going tothank him, but I'm also not
(27:03):
going to be as happy as if I hadthe decision to go out to the
market freely to purchase myown.
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
One example of how powerful prices are that I
recall from uh Russ Roberts isthat if you go to the local
bakery on Super Bowl Sunday toorder a bagel, they surprisingly
have bagels.
Even though that day is the daythey sell more pizza than any
other day.
You'd think all the dough in thecountry would be going into
(27:29):
pizza crusts, but instead thebakery's full of bagels, and the
market anticipates demand andprovides us what we want.
It's a remarkable the power ofprices to allocate resources
accurately.
And entrepreneurial thinking,you know, adds to that
anticipation.
And I'm thrilled to have you ontoday, the Liberty Leadership
(27:50):
Podcast, Amanda, because yourpassion for economics comes
across so well, and you're doingsuch a remarkable job at FTE and
helping us reach more studentsand more teachers and giving the
teachers the tools to beeffective in the classroom.
So thank you so much for joiningme today.
Your opportunity costs arevaluable, so I don't want to
take up more of your time thannecessary.
(28:12):
I want to give listeners a realgood sense from talking to
someone who's on the front lineof our programs, you know, with
the impact we're having on notonly record numbers of students
now in the programs we hold, uha record number of teachers
coming to us for help on how tobe more effective at teaching
economics and this newinitiative on Civics for Leaders
program.
(28:33):
So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
Thank you so much.
And we appreciate absolutelyyour support and your passion
for economics and making surethat we're able to reach both
our high school students andincorporate those best practices
with our teachers as well.
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
All right.
Thanks, Manda.
Thank you for listening to theLiberty and Leadership Podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfas.org.
And be sure to subscribe to theshow on your favorite podcast
app and leave a five starreview.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
(29:10):
I'm your host, Roger Reim, anduntil next time, show courage in
things large and small.
Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast,
a conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty, and friends who are
making an impact today.
I'm your host, Roger Reed.
I'm pleased to welcome AmandaStigelbauer to Liberty and
Leadership.
Amanda is an AP economicsteacher in Lexington, South
(00:23):
Carolina.
She is a master teacher at theCouncil on Economic Education
and has also served as a mentorand teacher at our Foundation
for Teaching Economics, or FTE.
At FDE, which has been part ofthe Fund for American Studies
since 2013, Amanda leadsinstruction in four program
(00:45):
areas Economics for Leaders,Economics for Teachers, Economic
Forces in American histories,and our newest curriculum, The
Realities of Socialism.
Amanda currently serves as FTE'sEconomic Education Curriculum
Fellow and is developingeconomic forces in American
(01:05):
civics to celebrate the 250thanniversary of the Declaration
of Independence next year.
Amanda is an author of severaleducational resources, including
lessons on Econ Edlink and theTeacher's Guide for AP
microeconomics and APmacroeconomics.
(01:25):
She is the 2019 recipient of theJohn Morton Excellence in
Teaching Economics Awardpresented by the Council on
Economic Education, and she is afierce advocate for the
discipline of economics at thestate and national level.
Amanda, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Thank you so much, Roger.
It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Clearly, you've devoted your career to the
subject of economics.
What inspired you to be sopassionate about the topic?
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
That's a great question.
So from a very early age, Ialways knew I wanted to be a
teacher.
I think I was teaching mybrother out of books probably by
the age of three or four, and hewas my loyal student.
And it took me a while to figureout what I actually wanted to
teach because I just lovedlearning so much.
(02:16):
So when I went to college, Ithought, well, maybe I'll major
in elementary education becauseI love children.
But I also had a really deepdesire to learn more in history
and then enter my firsteconomics class.
Economics truly enlightened meto how to understand the world
around me.
And from that time, probably aweek or two into the course, I
(02:39):
had my sorority sisters on mydorm room floor who did not
understand economics that seemedreally interesting to me.
I mean, I had a natural knackfor it.
So I tutored them on Tuesdaysand Thursdays on our floor in
our dorm room.
And it was then that I realizedI really want to be an economics
teacher.
And so the rest is history.
(03:00):
I've devoted the rest of mycareer to studying the different
areas of economics and how itplays into history, how it plays
into civics, the economics ofthe environment, and how liberty
and freedom are important foreconomic institutions around the
world.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
Well, you must have had an outstanding economics
professor who taught you thateconomics is really about the
way the world works and hasthese broad implications and
applications as well.
I want to dig a little deeperthere because I feel the same
way myself, but was it just kindof thinking about how through
price systems and supply anddemand resources get allocated
(03:39):
to their highest use and it justkind of pulls everything
together?
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Yeah.
So I think definitely looking atthe pricing system and the
importance of supply and demandand understanding that there's
really no entity that setsprices.
It's the interaction of supplyand demand and the invisible
hand that makes resourcesallocate to the places that
they're most needed.
And I also really enjoyed, I wasone of those kind of strange
(04:04):
people who really enjoyedlearning about the Federal
Reserve and how interest ratesare determined in a market.
And that kind of leads into alot of implications for personal
finance education as well.
I also thought it was reallyinteresting just to boil it down
to the economics of choice.
Every second of every day, weare making decisions.
(04:26):
And those decisions areeconomics decisions.
So we're weighing our costs andour benefits in every situation
we face.
And those situations are fraughtwith opportunity costs that we
have to consider.
And so as a young collegestudent that was definitely at
the forefront of my mind if I'mmajoring in economics, it was
truly an economic decision forme.
(04:48):
I knew that I wanted to teach,but I also understood that after
five years of teaching, mostteachers find another career.
And so I wanted to find a backupplan that I was very prepared to
enjoy.
And economics was definitely theone, the subject that turned me
on the most.
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
What has been your experience in terms of how the
subject is generally taught inAmerican classrooms?
Do you think students find theseprinciples hard to grasp?
Did your sorority sisters, forinstance, find them hard to
grasp, but more so at the highschool level?
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Yeah.
So I think that both at thecollege level and at the high
school level, sometimes theseare hard concepts to boil down
to basic human understanding.
I think that one of the thingsthat really turned me on to
economics and helped me topropel into a good economics
teacher is to making economicsapplicable to what's going on
(05:45):
around in the world and beingpassionate.
So students, even my sororitysisters at the time, when I was
18 years old, they saw that Iwas really passionate about what
I was sharing with them.
And even though it was hard tounderstand at the time, boiling
it down to the basic principlesand the ideas of choice, those
(06:07):
things really resonated withthem.
So whether it was talking aboutif you're if you're gonna spend
the night studying or if you'regonna spend the night out at a
fraternity party, those areeconomic decisions that they
faced.
And those were definitely thingsthat they were able to relate
to.
So whether it was talking withcollege students or the high
(06:29):
school students I see every day,making it about them and making
it something that they'reinterested in and truly showing
them how passionate you areabout the subject really makes a
difference.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
FTE has taken great pride in adopting an approach
that uses activities in theclassroom to illustrate economic
concepts and hopefully givethose concepts a stickiness that
stays with the students who doour programs.
And I think some of this stemmedfrom the influence of Rose and
Milton Friedman, who were veryinvolved with FTE in the 1980s,
(07:06):
and Rose Friedman, I think atleast served on the board of the
organization for many years.
But what kind of strategies andclassroom activities have you
found effective in making theeconomic way of thinking come
alive for students?
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
So I think that one of the reasons that I'm the
teacher that I am today isbecause of the interactive
simulations that FTE has triedand tested and proven for so
many years.
So in my classroom, myphilosophy is that whoever's
doing the talking is doing thelearning.
And so I love for it to be avery active and for lack of a
(07:42):
better term, loud atmospherewhere students are talking about
the concepts or they'reinteracting in a simulation that
is based on market principles ofsupply and demand, where they
are either producers orconsumers and they're trying to
either purchase or sell a goodlike a computer chip, like one
of our favorite FTE activitiesin the chips.
(08:04):
And so that is an interactivesimulation where it's truly a
marketplace and it gets reallyloud, but that's where the
learning occurs.
So we could lecture all day longabout how the interaction of
supply and demand and thecreation of that X between them
creates a price and quantity.
But as students are able to seeand actually feel that price
(08:28):
emerge in the market throughsimulations like in the chips,
that's where the real learningoccurs.
And so I think not just thatactivity, but others as well,
really helps students tosolidify not only their
understanding, but to create apassion and love of economics
from an early age.
SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
So do you think, related to what you just said,
that you can help your studentsthen connect the economic
concepts not only to theireveryday life, you know, whether
to study or go out and party,but about kind of current events
and issues that we grapple within our country.
SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
Absolutely.
So even with the most recentexample of in the chips, that
how prices are determined in amarketplace, it's so common to
hear students and adults say,well, the president sets the
price of gas.
And so doing a simulation likethis, we can turn them around
and say, well, we have a verymarket-based economy with very
(09:25):
little government intervention.
And so did we see that thegovernment sets the price of
gas, or do the interaction ofproducers and consumers together
create this magical price andquantity that is exchanged in a
marketplace?
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
Well, for people listening today who might not be
that familiar with our Economicsfor Leaders program, could you
describe what it is and also howyou got first got involved in
FTE?
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Absolutely.
So the Economics for Leadersprogram is, I think, one of my
absolute favorite FTEexperiences.
So we recruit high schoolstudents, generally sophomores
and juniors in high school, whohave an interest in both
economics or business andleadership skills as well.
(10:12):
And so we bring them to collegecampuses around the country.
So whether it be Yale, SMU, OhioState, Berkeley, a lot of the
prestigious universities thatthey want to get a first-hand
glimpse at.
And we teach them economicprinciples in the morning using
our amazing professors who arevetted by FTE.
(10:34):
And we also conduct the economicexperiments and simulations with
a mentor teacher like me in themornings as well.
In the afternoons, they um theylearn more about leadership
principles.
So not only do they they havelectures, but most of it is
activity-based, where they getthe hands-on experience of what
(10:55):
the characteristics are of goodleaders and how to exhibit those
as well.
So that's a little synopsisabout the EFL program.
I first got involved with FTE asa first-year teacher.
I think, I think it's prettyevident that I really love to
learn.
And so I'm a sponge that lovesto soak up everything.
(11:17):
I started my career as a middleschool teacher, and uh I wanted
desperately to teach economicsin high school.
Job market was really tight atthat point.
It was before the 2008 financialcrisis.
And so it was hard to permeatethat market, especially as a 21,
22-year-old person who wasstraight out of college.
(11:38):
So I wanted to gain as muchknowledge and experience as I
could with best practices inteaching economics.
So I found FTE.
My husband is also an economicsteacher, and we just latched on
to as many of the workshops aswe could.
And I still use so many of theprinciples that I learned in the
(12:00):
very first workshop with mystudents today.
SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
You made a mention earlier of personal finance
courses.
And I know there are a number ofstates, I think it's more than
30 now, that require some sortof course in high school in
either economics or personalfinance.
And I know those are verydifferent courses, and both
probably very important courses,but is there sometimes confusion
(12:23):
between students who are takingpersonal finance versus really
learning the economic way ofthinking in an economics class?
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Yeah, there has been such a growing trend with
personal finance education,sometimes at the expense of
economics education.
States are passing laws that saypersonal finance is now a
requirement.
You can take personal financeinstead of economics.
And I know some states havescrapped economics altogether,
which is really sad because theyare, as you said, two very
(12:53):
different subject areas.
When their parents come in onopen house night, they think, oh
yes, you're going to teach mystudent how to write a check and
you're going to teach them howto balance a budget.
And in South Carolina, where Iteach, that's actually true
because we have what we call ahybrid course in economics and
personal finance.
But now there's a push to haveboth standalone economics and
(13:16):
personal finance courses.
So there is a lot of confusion.
Most people, a lot of times,unfortunately, I feel like they
err on the side of we needpersonal finance.
And as you said, personalfinance is so important.
But economics and understandingthe world around us, the
policies that we're voting foror not voting for, and how the
world around us works is equallyas important.
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
There's obviously a lack of economic literacy in our
country.
And at the highest levels, yousee that I haven't seen any
recent surveys.
In fact, we should probablyconduct one of members of
Congress to find out how manyhave taken at least one
economics course, how many havemajored in economics, or have
come from careers in business.
Most of them are lawyers.
I saw something the other day.
(14:00):
There are only a handful ofengineers in Congress.
It's almost all lawyers, andlawyers tend to obstruct
progress and building andcreation.
But do you think if we hadbetter economic literacy in this
country, it might mean bettertrade policy, better regulatory
and energy policy, and improvethe conduct of economic policy
at the highest levels?
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Loaded question.
But yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Very loaded, very loaded.
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
When I teach about some of these hot topic issues
like tariffs.
Tariffs are one of my favoritethings to teach about now.
I like to code it witheconomics, it doesn't have to be
so political.
Economics is economics, and atariff is a tax on a foreign
good.
And what we have seen over andover again is that a tariff is
(14:47):
not paid by the foreign country.
It is paid by the Americanconsumer in the form of higher
prices.
And so when we have so muchrhetoric around higher price
levels, we have inflation, andwe continue to implement tariff
policies 50%, 100% tariffs onother nations, it makes things
pretty difficult for theAmerican consumer.
(15:10):
And so I think like that idea ofeconomic literacy, understanding
what the policies are that weare supporting, what impact
those will have truly on theAmerican people is so important.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
And I think FTE has developed an activity on tariffs
as well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
Yeah.
So FTE has a great program fortariffs.
There is an activity that wecall Tic-Tac-Toe Tariff.
And just like any othersimulation we do, most of them
involve some sort of candy.
And so the students in theactivity are asked to rate their
favorite dum-dum flavors.
(15:47):
So the activity centers aroundthe trading of dum-dums.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Which are lollipops of some kind, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Lollipops of some sort.
So there are about 15 differentflavors of them, and they rank
them.
And during the course of twodifferent rounds, they are
trying to improve theirsatisfaction.
They're trying to get thelollipops that they desire most.
For me, it would be thebubblegum lollipops.
I would try to get a marketbasket of three bubblegum
(16:13):
lollipops, but I've learned thatour students, they love the blue
raspberry lollipops.
So they're trying to improvetheir satisfaction from their
original basket to the one thatthey have at the end of each
round.
And in round one, they are facedwith trade with a tariff.
So divided into two differentcountries, Country X and Country
(16:33):
O, they're still allowed totrade because just like with a
tariff, you're still allowed totrade with another country, but
you still must have to pay aprice.
And when we look at that, thatcost is playing a game of
tic-tac-toe with a person fromanother country that you'd like
to trade with.
So we increase the transactioncosts like that so that they can
(16:54):
see that a tariff imposesbarriers, imposes a cost on the
producer and the consumer.
And then we have them compare ina second round how that compares
to a round of free trade, inwhich there is no tariff,
there's no game of tic-tac-toeor cost associated with trading
with a person from anothercountry.
(17:14):
And it's really interesting tosee.
We do a very quantitative lookat this, what their happiness
points are from round one versuswhat their happiness points are
with free trade in round two.
And always we see a rise inconsumer satisfaction.
SPEAKER_01 (17:31):
When I introduced you, I mentioned that you were
awarded the John MortonExcellence in Teaching Award
from the Council on EconomicEducation.
Tell me about that award andwhat that recognition meant to
you as a sign of youreffectiveness as a teacher.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
It's one of my favorite memories.
I was nominated by my statecouncil.
So the John Morton Excellence inTeaching Economics Award for the
Council on Economic Education isessentially the National
Economics Teacher of the Yearaward.
So select one middle, one high,and one elementary school
teacher each year.
And the state of South Carolinasubmitted my name and
(18:08):
application in 2019.
And I had absolutely no ideathat I would be considered one
of the top economics teachers inthe country.
So I found out that I had beenawarded the Morton Award as my
family and administrators andcouncil members came into my
(18:29):
classroom on pajama day.
I was wearing a Grinch pajamaonesie.
So it was just absolutelyphenomenal.
So they surprised me with theaward and flowers, and my
children, who I think were, ohgosh, they were tiny at the
time, twin girls.
They all showed up in myclassroom and my principal
(18:50):
awarded the award.
And it was truly one of my mostmemorable moments, I think.
And then from there, they flewme to LA, where the conference
was that year.
And I was able to give a speechto all of the attendees about
the importance of economicseducation.
And I really started to push forthe importance of economic
(19:13):
education and personal financeeducation.
And that economics should neverbe at the expense of personal
finance as the growing tide wasseeming to come.
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
One of the things I know you've just been putting
some energy into is the America250 celebration next year that
our country will be enjoying.
Can you comment a little bit onthe connection between economics
and kind of the Americanfounding and how economics plays
a role into that conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Absolutely.
I am so excited that this is theprogram that we are working on
during this year, and especiallyas important as it is to
celebrate America 250.
So as we look at the creation ofthis program and the
celebration, I think it's soimportant to highlight some of
the key ideas that our foundingfathers had.
(20:07):
The importance of making surethat life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness is just asattainable today as they desired
it to be 250 years ago.
When we think about this from aneconomic lens, life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness,the pursuit of happiness many
times leads us to the idea ofprosperity.
(20:30):
And so what we have seen overthe course of the last 250 years
is that America has been able touphold these important
institutions, rule of law asestablished by our Constitution,
and so many of the principlesthat our Constitution upholds,
separation of powers, which wesee on full display even today,
(20:51):
federalism.
And we also see these ideas offree markets, free and open
markets with very littlegovernment intervention.
We see the idea of theencouragement of
entrepreneurship.
Those ideas are upheld withinour constitution.
So these ideas of the thingsthat have made America
(21:12):
prosperous are the foundation.
The foundation was establishedthrough our constitution and
continues to be so important tous today and our progress.
SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
And in the standard economics for leaders program
that we offer students, there isan emphasis on the importance of
institutions, right?
In terms of a healthy economicsystem?
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Aaron Powell There is, yes.
So throughout the course of thatweek, we continually go back to
the idea that the importance ofthe four institutions, private
property rights, rule of law,entrepreneurship, and free and
open markets are the basis forestablishing a nation that is
prosperous.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
When I talk to young people, I love talking about the
index of economic freedom.
Because they can just look atthe world and see that countries
with the greatest degree ofrespect for those four things
you just named (22:07):
private property and open markets and rule of
law, those kinds of things leadto economic prosperity.
And it's evident when you lookat the rankings that the freest
countries are the mostprosperous, the healthiest and
cleanest environments.
And do you find that that issomething you use as well in
your teaching?
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Absolutely.
I love the index of economicfreedom.
We have a couple of activitiesthat even like pinpoint why that
index is so important to lookat.
And one of the most recentpieces of curriculum that we've
put out, entrepreneurship.
There is an activity in whichstudents are tasked with trying
to find the perfect country tolocate a business.
(22:50):
And they're given someinformation about some of the
different countries.
They go to the CA World Factbookand look at some information
regarding four differentcountries that they're
investigating.
And they're trying to figure outwhere to establish the
headquarters for a business thatis creating a new app to help
other people.
(23:10):
So maybe that app is helping youdeliver your groceries, or maybe
that app is, you know, to helpyou walk your dog when you're at
work.
But it's a helping app.
And so at first they centeraround this idea of just
focusing in on how many internetusers they have and what is the
Wi-Fi speed in those countries.
So they they have a very narrowfocus when they're looking at
(23:32):
the CIA World Factbook.
But then when we reveal theEconomic Freedom Index, they
have a completely different lensand they're able to look at it
through that idea of, well, whatabout the institutions that
these countries uphold?
And how does that play intotheir ability to support
business?
(23:52):
And as you said, those placesare the ones that we see the
most prosperity and economicfreedom.
SPEAKER_01 (23:59):
Now, another area of the FTE program that you've been
involved in is the realities ofsocialism, kind of a newer
endeavor from the last few yearsin that we worked with the
Fraser Institute to developthat.
Could you just kind of brieflygive listeners an overview of
what that curriculum is about?
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
It's really fun because when we put the title
out there, The Realities ofSocialism.
Socialism is such a politicallycharged word today.
And so so many people think, oh,wow, these people are coming in
here and they're really tryingto teach us like how to be
socialists, right?
And so we continue to build onthe ideas of economic freedom.
(24:38):
We actually do take a reallyhard look at the economic
freedom of the world index inthat program as well.
Uh, but really comparing whatsocialist countries look like
and what capitalist countrieslook like based on their
institutions and their freedoms.
And so what we have found isthat most people see socialism
(25:01):
as a welfare state.
Basically, are we getting freehealth care, free, such a
four-letter F-word in economics,right?
Are we getting free orgovernment-funded programs?
Whereas when we define socialismhistorically, we're looking at
government owning the factors ofproduction.
(25:22):
So there are a lot ofmisconceptions surrounding the
term socialism versuscapitalism.
And of course, capitalismcontinues to get a bad rap, but
we have to continue to push thisidea of, well, when we look at
the economic freedom of theworld index and we look at these
countries on a spectrum of howwell they are able to uphold
these institutions, countriesthat are able to uphold the
(25:46):
institutions like rule of lawand uphold the idea of the
importance of private property,these are the countries and
societies where we seeprosperity occurring.
And those are not socialistcountries.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So the idea of city-run grocery stores may not
be that successful if it's triedin New York.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
City-run grocery stores.
Wow.
You know, we even have anactivity that tries to have
students like get into the ideaof, well, you're now running
this.
Decide on what it is that you'reproducing and how you're going
to produce it.
And they fail every time.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
And how you're going to price it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
And how you're going to price it, right?
So I like to tell them, myteachers and my students in this
program that, you know, one day,Amanda's order might be uh a
cinnamon dolce latte, half thesugar and oat milk.
But the next day, it's going tobe really hot outside.
And so I don't want that hotcinnamon dolce latte oat milk,
(26:43):
half the sweetener.
That day, I might want an icedvanilla latte from Starbucks.
Who has that knowledge?
I am the only one who has thatknowledge.
Roger Ream can't decide for mewhat it is that I want.
And if he tries to be nice oneday and brings me coffee into
the workplace, I'm going tothank him, but I'm also not
(27:03):
going to be as happy as if I hadthe decision to go out to the
market freely to purchase myown.
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
One example of how powerful prices are that I
recall from uh Russ Roberts isthat if you go to the local
bakery on Super Bowl Sunday toorder a bagel, they surprisingly
have bagels.
Even though that day is the daythey sell more pizza than any
other day.
You'd think all the dough in thecountry would be going into
(27:29):
pizza crusts, but instead thebakery's full of bagels, and the
market anticipates demand andprovides us what we want.
It's a remarkable the power ofprices to allocate resources
accurately.
And entrepreneurial thinking,you know, adds to that
anticipation.
And I'm thrilled to have you ontoday, the Liberty Leadership
(27:50):
Podcast, Amanda, because yourpassion for economics comes
across so well, and you're doingsuch a remarkable job at FTE and
helping us reach more studentsand more teachers and giving the
teachers the tools to beeffective in the classroom.
So thank you so much for joiningme today.
Your opportunity costs arevaluable, so I don't want to
take up more of your time thannecessary.
(28:12):
I want to give listeners a realgood sense from talking to
someone who's on the front lineof our programs, you know, with
the impact we're having on notonly record numbers of students
now in the programs we hold, uha record number of teachers
coming to us for help on how tobe more effective at teaching
economics and this newinitiative on Civics for Leaders
program.
(28:33):
So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
Thank you so much.
And we appreciate absolutelyyour support and your passion
for economics and making surethat we're able to reach both
our high school students andincorporate those best practices
with our teachers as well.
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
All right.
Thanks, Manda.
Thank you for listening to theLiberty and Leadership Podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfas.org.
And be sure to subscribe to theshow on your favorite podcast
app and leave a five starreview.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
(29:10):
I'm your host, Roger Reim, anduntil next time, show courage in
things large and small.
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