January 28, 2025 • 31 mins
This week Roger welcomes Tim Goeglein, the vice president of external and government relations for Focus on the Family, a Christian ministry and nonprofit organization. They discuss how the cultural and moral shifts of the 1960s shaped many of the challenges American society faces today, how the seeds for these changes were planted earlier in the 20th century by progressives like Woodrow Wilson and John Dewey and how the Great Society programs of the 1960s (despite good intentions) led to unintended consequences that undermined traditional American societal institutions. Plus, why the path forward lies in grassroots efforts to rebuild civic institutions at the local level rather than relying on top-down government solutions.
Prior to joining Focus on the Family, Goeglein was a special assistant to President George W. Bush and deputy director of the White House Office of Public Liaison, conducting outreach for conservative and faith-based groups. During his White House tenure, he played an integral role in nominating Supreme Court justices Samuel Alito and John G. Roberts and was also integral in helping to establish the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.
He’s written four books, his latest title being, “Stumbling Toward Utopia: How the 1960s Turned Into a National Nightmare and How We Can Revive the American Dream,” which was published in September of 2024 by Fidelis Publishing.
The Liberty + Leadership Podcast is hosted by TFAS president Roger Ream and produced by Podville Media. If you have a comment or question for the show, please email us at podcast@TFAS.org. To support TFAS and its mission, please visit TFAS.org/support.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Welcome to the Liberty andLeadership Podcast, a
conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today I'm your host, roger Reed.
I'm pleased to welcome TimothyGagline, the Vice President of
(01:04):
External and GovernmentRelations at Focus on the Family
, a Christian ministry andnonprofit organization.
Prior to this role, tim wasspecial assistant to President
George W Bush and DeputyDirector of the White House
Office of Public Liaison,conducting outreach to
conservative and faith-basedorganizations.
(01:25):
During his White House tenure,tim played an integral role in
the nominations of JusticesSamuel Olito and John Roberts to
the United States Supreme Court, and he helped establish the
Office of Faith-Based andCommunity Initiatives at the
White House.
In 2011, tim wrote a memoir ofhis experiences in the Bush
(01:45):
administration and since thenhas written three more books.
His most recent title isStumbling Toward Utopia how the
1960s Turned into a NationalNightmare and how we Can Revive
the American Dream.
It was published in Septemberof 2024 by Fidelis Publishing
Tim.
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's a real pleasure, Roger.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Before we discuss your most recent book, I'd like
to ask you what motivated you tobegin writing books a few years
ago.
This, I think, is at least yourfourth book.
What got you into writing andput you on this path?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, I love that question.
When I departed the White House,a former White House colleague
of mine had had a previousprofessional relationship with a
very important conservativeChristian publisher and she
asked me at lunch one day haveyou ever thought about writing a
memoir not an autobiography,but just a sense of a
(02:48):
combination of two things One,your work in the White House and
in the United States Senate andhow you came into the
conservative movement and someof the ideas, the books, the,
above all, the people who had aninfluence on you.
And candidly I said to her Ihadn't thought about it.
But she said I think you should.
(03:08):
And within two weeks I signed abook deal and thus was born out
of that the man in the Middle,which is my first book, a memoir
which turned out, by God'sgrace alone, to have done very,
very well, and especially in thereflections of the
conservatives and faith-basedaspects of my time working for
George W Bush.
So that's really how it started.
(03:29):
And now it's four books laterand it's actually a lot of work
and a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I have a copy of that first book of yours, the
man in the Middle, subtitled AnInside Account of Faith and
Politics in the George W BushEra.
So congratulations on thesuccess of that first book.
Another question, just kind ofby way of introductory part to
this conversation, is kind ofhow you go about writing the
books.
I mean, you hold down regularemployment.
(03:55):
Do you block a few weeks towrite?
Do you get up early and do itevery day?
Do you focus on the weekends?
But how do you tackle thewriting?
Do you have a routine?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
My teacher of history at Indiana University, now
deceased, robert Farrell, one ofthe great diplomatic historians
of American history and mostwell-known as Harry Truman's
official biographer.
I really benefited from hisfriendship and mentorship, roger
, all those years ago inBloomington, and I remember
(04:28):
having a long afternoon with himnumerous years ago in which I
asked him with specific kind ofdetail how do you write a book?
And he had been Sam Bemis' starstudent at Yale all the years
before and had patterned hisresearch and writing after
Professor Bemis.
I remember coming back fromthat afternoon meeting and
(04:52):
taking extensive notes on what Ihad recalled and I've copied
that method, and the method isquite simple, which is read all
the time, read every opportunityyou have, find a fleet way of
making outlines that arediscernible and applicable and
then begin to grow from that achapter outline and proposal.
(05:13):
It's an involved process, butit's one that really has served
me quite well, particularly inthe third and fourth book, where
it really did take a fairlymonumental research effort,
because the areas that I waswriting about were very heavily
researched already and I wantedto find something new to say.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, that certainly shows in those books and you
document some of those sourcesyou went to for that research
and it was some great sourcesthere.
One more question before wetackle your latest book
Stumbling Toward Utopia In 2023,I believe it was you published
Toward a More Perfect Union theMoral and Cultural Case for
(05:53):
Teaching the Great AmericanStory.
In that book you discussed,among other things, the need to
educate Americans, youngAmericans, all Americans really
about their own history, theAmerican story.
How was that book received?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Very well and in fact , of the four books that I have
written or co-authored, thatparticular book arrived, you may
remember, roger, at a moment ofthe height of Wokistan, erasure
culture, cancel culture andfrankly, when I began the
research on it I was certainlyvery interested and concerned
about cancel culture, but atthat particular moment it really
(06:29):
wasn't kind of in the nationalforefront.
But it was a remarkable momentthat toward a more perfect union
, came out at precisely theheight of the debate over DEI,
wokistan, etc.
You sort of strike, pay dirt ifyou're an author where
something you've been thinkingabout and writing about actually
happens, at a moment whereeverybody left, right and center
(06:53):
seems to be speaking about it,writing about it, etc.
I think for that reason towarda more perfect union, which
really went in, as you know, tosome length about what are the
implications of nationalcultural illiteracy.
It really struck a chord and Iwanted to pick up on that chord
and advance it in StumblingToward Utopia argues that many
(07:25):
of the ills we're sufferingtoday are due to events that can
be traced back to the 1960s.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
But you admittedly don't offer just a simplistic
overview of these things.
You dig into the antecedents tothose events the influence of
the progressives in WoodrowWilson, of John Dewey on our
educational system and manyothers that had influences that
were felt in the 1960s.
Could you please summarize theoverall theme of Stumbling
(07:50):
Toward Utopia?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I'd love to.
I was actually speaking inbehalf of Focus on the Family,
where I've been a vice presidenthere in Washington, believe it
or not for 16 years, and I wasin a debate in Tulsa, oklahoma.
Roger, you're out and aboutspeaking all the time as well
and you offer remarks and thenwe get to what we call the Q&A
(08:11):
and, with pinpointpredictability, for the three
years in this particular periodof time, before I began writing,
researching, stumbling TowardUtopia, with pinpoint
predictability, whether I was infront of a left-wing audience,
right-wing audience ornon-ideological, somebody would
invariably ask the question howdid we get into this mess?
And in other parts of Americanhistory you would say tell me
(08:35):
more about what you're asking.
But in the era that we're in,we all know it's a mess, a
cultural mess.
And after hearing this questionrepeatedly, got on the airplane
and I asked for a short stack ofcocktail napkins and I began to
outline the answer to how wegot into this mess.
And the answer to the mess Icame to conclude was the
(08:58):
cultural and moral cataclysm andrevolution of the 1960s.
If you want to ask the question, how did we get into this mess?
You can really get a lot of theanswer from what happened to
our country culture andcivilization in the 60s and the
1970s, and so I organicallyasked where did the 60s come
(09:18):
from?
And the answer is stumblingtoward utopia and what it all
means for those of us living in21st century America.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well, it's really hard to believe that the decade
of the 60s is more than sixdecades ago, having come of age
as the 60s were passing, andexperiencing some of that as a
teenager.
In the book you do go into.
Some of the antecedents thatled us to the 60s Could begin in
the 60s.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
The 60s began at the turn of the 20th century and it
took the seeds of socialengineering and utopianism
planted in the turn of the 20thcentury to germinate in the
1960s, For instance in the areaof politics and public policy.
(10:07):
President Woodrow Wilson he hadbeen the president of Princeton
, he had been governor of NewJersey, he was a real social
engineer and he was veryuncomfortable with the United
States and the United Statesgovernment.
He wrote at length about hisuncomfortability with the
Declaration of Independence, hisuncomfortability with the
United States Constitution, andhe really reimagined himself as
(10:31):
kind of the American primeminister, changing politics
really forever and really usingprogressivism as the seedbed of
that kind of radicaltransformation.
Roger Baldwin, a veryinfluential founder of the
American Civil Liberties Union,a committed communist, very
uncomfortable with the Americanlaw and legal system.
(10:53):
Margaret Sanger, the founder ofPlanned Parenthood, a very
committed eugenicist, aracialist, really uncomfortable
in writing very demeaning thingsabout the American immigrant
class.
And of course, John Dewey,overwhelmingly the most
transformative, progressivesocial engineering pioneer of
American education, foreverchanging the idea of the
(11:17):
objective nature of wisdom andvirtue as the seedbed of
American education.
And many others.
But this group of peoplefundamentally changing and
pushing forward what wouldbecome the sexual revolution,
the education revolution, thereal revolution, in a bad sense,
for the American government andlegal system.
(11:37):
In many ways, these were theprogenitors of the 1960s.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
The thing they seemed to have in common was the idea
that we could tap the expertiseof elites and that would trump
our traditional Republican formof government, where power came
up from the people and theyelected their representatives to
govern them.
You present that veryeffectively and John Dewey is an
example of that in your book.
I was surprised.
(12:03):
I knew about Dewey and hisbelief system and his effort to
transform our educational system, but you include the quotes
here where he admittedly said hewanted to really change the
social order and the culture inour society.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
In fact two comments, if I may.
John Dewey and Woodrow Wilsonactually have a lot in common To
your earlier comment, Roger.
As you know from StumblingToward Utopia, there's that
remarkable observation fromWoodrow Wilson that the American
experience really would bebetter you know, much better if
we just have the country run byexperts.
(12:36):
This is really in opposition tothe founding principle of
citizen sovereignty.
And, of course, like WoodrowWilson, John Dewey, as you say,
really intentionally wanted toupend the idea of American
education, using the classroomand eventually using higher
education to really transformthe country.
(12:58):
And as you know from the book Ishowed the direct line from
Dewey's radicalism all the waydown to the Port Huron statement
, which is really the 60sblueprint for the radicalization
of American higher education,and using American higher
education as a kind of truncheonagainst the country to
(13:18):
radically transform the country.
And I think that, whether you'respeaking about Sanger or Dewey,
Wilson, Baldwin, many of thepeople that I outlined in
Stumbling Forward Utopia youcome to the conclusion,
ultimately, that they have incommon this Forward Utopia.
You come to the conclusion,ultimately, that they have in
common this utopian vision forthe United States that we can
just socially engineer our wayto a new country.
(13:40):
And when we get to the 60s and70s, you have to ultimately
conclude, and not categorically.
I'm a bottomless optimist and Isay a lot of great things about
the 1960s, but in this regard,the fundamental shift definitely
goes into full force in the 60sand the 70s.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, a little later we'll try to pull out that
optimism that you have.
So we'll get to that.
But let's still focus on thenegative here, and you mentioned
the Port Huron statement, whichwas really the precursor to the
founding of the SDS Studentsfor a Democratic Society, and
Tom Hayden and other radicalswho launched the protest
movement.
What's interesting there Ifound in reading your book, tim,
(14:22):
is while Dewey and to someextent Wilson and others saying
or were explicit in their aims,hayden worked to try to disguise
those aims and you cover thatvery well, I thought, in the
book.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
The Port Huron statement is something that not
just conservatives but everybodywho cares deeply about public
policy and culture and the waythey interact the world of ideas
.
We owe it to ourselves to goback and to not only read the
Port Huron statement I pray thatpeople will read Stumbling
Forward Utopia but to reallybetter understand this very
(14:59):
specific connection betweenideas and consequences.
A now forgotten conservativephilosopher who was at the
University of Chicago, richardWeaver, famously wrote, said,
lectured, that ideas haveconsequences.
Our mutual friend Bill Buckleyused to say only ideas have
consequences and both Weaver andBuckley were right.
(15:22):
And I think that Tom Hayden andmany of the progressives who
had a completely differentworldview than Weaver and
Buckley, rehm and Geiglein,ultimately comes to the view
they were echoing a lot of whatour fellow conservatives believe
that ideas have consequences.
And using the university in anew way, along those Dewey-esque
(15:44):
Woodrow Wilson lines, reallyhelped to fundamentally
transform not only Americaneducation at every level, to
fundamentally transform not onlyAmerican education at every
level but also American culture,politics, the legal system and,
frankly, entertainment andjournalism.
And the Port Huron Statementfor that reason really deserves
to be better understood,internalized and absorbed,
(16:07):
because it's a very importanthistoric document.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Tim, many of the chapters in your book clearly
relate to culture, the ones thatdeal with entertainment, the
sexual revolution, education.
But one chapter thatparticularly struck me was your
chapter on Lyndon Johnson'sGreat Society.
While not necessarilyconsidering government programs
to be impacting the culture, youshow how they did have a
(16:31):
tremendous impact by quotingfrom Lyndon Johnson's speech in
May of 1964.
Could you talk some about thatchapter?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I think that the Great Society is, if I may say,
the penultimate beginning of thedisaster that became the 1960s.
In preparation for writingStumbling Towards Utopia, roger,
I went back and I read all ofLyndon Johnson's major speeches.
I went back to his newsconferences and read the remarks
(17:01):
and comments regarding theGreat Society.
They're voluminous.
The president, in May of 1964,goes to the University of
Michigan in Ann Arbor andlaunches the Great Society and
it's unbelievable, I would sayit's breathtaking to read that
speech and many that follow, inthis kind of Herculean, olympian
(17:22):
sense of what government isgoing to do.
These promises are unbelievableand you can read these speeches
and watch them and what comesto mind is Woodrow Wilson and
Franklin Roosevelt.
You know this kind ofprogressive preparation for the
1960s and the over government,the explosion of government.
(17:43):
What does Lyndon Johnsonpromise?
He promises that government isgoing to solve poverty.
Government is going to resolveall of our inner city issues.
Government is going to solvethe race issue.
Government is going to beinvolved in education.
Government is going to beinvolved in the family and, as
(18:03):
conservatives know, the morethat government incentivizes
something, very often the morethey get it.
And the Great Society,overwhelmingly, is the stumbling
toward utopia, public policy ofcataclysm.
Here it is only 2025 andpoverty is worse.
The marriage and fertilityrates in our country are the
(18:26):
lowest in recorded Americanhistory.
And you go on and on and you goback and look at the great
society and you actuallyempirically not from opinions,
but you empirically measure itand you have to conclude that it
was really a gigantic, agargantuan, colossal failure of
big over-government.
And so I thought it was veryimportant to really spend time
(18:50):
looking at the great society.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a bigsupporter in his life of
Franklin Roosevelt.
Avril Harrowman, the ultimateNew Deal Democrat.
He was a little-knowndemographer in the 1960s this is
only 1965.
And in 1965, he said and foundthat 25% of Black Americans were
(19:14):
born out of wedlock.
He called it a crisis.
Today that number is above 70%53% of Hispanic Americans, 33%
of native-born whites.
The majority of babies born towomen ages 30 years of age and
over are born out of wedlock.
So this is unsustainable andit's incentivized by the
(19:36):
progressive programs and theidea of the 60s and 70s.
And so I think we'rehonor-bound to look at where
this kind of moral and socialrevolution really came from and
what it means.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
There's a common understanding that history often
repeats itself, Tim, and wouldyou say there are any major
cultural shifts happening rightnow in America that may impact
us in six decades or maybesooner?
Do you see promising signs fromthis decade that might give us
hope for the future?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, I'm an inveterate optimist and, I have
to say, if I were to write thenext book, I would be very
tempted to talk Roger at somelength, to write at some length
about what I consider to be alot of the remarkably positive
developments in culture andpublic policy.
For instance, I think we areseeing a new dawn for school
(20:29):
choice.
I think it's quite exciting.
I think we are seeing aparallel series of good news
stories about charter schools,about homeschooling and private
and religious education.
In other words, this idea thata kind of Germanic 19th century
model that the progressivestried to toy around with, I
(20:50):
think we can pretty much say nowis not working for anybody.
And I think that the way forwardin education, there are all
kinds of excellent signs.
I also think, in the world ofentertainment and culture, both
high culture, middle brow,popular culture, I think we are
again seeing fairly good films,we are seeing good television.
(21:12):
With the social media explosionwe have seen a remarkable array
of excellent choices and Ithink that the model of three
networks and two newspapers anda handful of radio stations is
yesterday's news and thedecentralization, the kind of, I
think, counterculture thatAmerican conservatives have
(21:47):
advocated for many, many years.
So I believe that, in the main,remarkable days are ahead for
our great country, and in thebest sort of way.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
You have a chapter in your book about the decline in
mainline Protestantism in ourcountry, which was dramatic
beginning in the 50s, really inthe 60s, and continued up to
this day.
Do you see encouraging signs inthat regard?
Is there a need for a religiousrevival in this country and if
yes, do you see it happening?
I know you work in that field,so I'm interested in your
(22:18):
opinions of that.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I actually believe that we will see a fourth great
awakening and in StumblingToward Utopia, I show the direct
results of the progressiveovertake of much of what we used
to call the Protestant mainline.
Incredibly excellent, positiveforce for good in our country.
(22:43):
It served as a complementarynature, even from the founding,
to what we all consider to begood, healthy public policy and
culture.
But in the 1930s, 40s, 50s,culminating in the 60s and 70s,
as I demonstrate in the book, weshow the complete progressive
(23:06):
overtake of the overwhelmingmajority of what we used to call
, as I say, the Protestantmainline Presbyterians,
methodists, etc.
Etc.
And in almost every instancewhere progressivism and social
justice replaces, broadlyspeaking, biblical orthodoxy,
you have not just a smalldecline, you have a hollowing
out of that part of the Americanreligious experience.
(23:28):
Now it's important to say that,even though the seminaries and
many of those churches have losthistoric numbers of members in
many ways, on Sunday mornings orWednesday nights really there's
not very many people there.
We also have to say thatbecause of earlier faith and the
commitment of people in thoseparishes, churches, places of
worship, they are very largeproperty holders.
(23:51):
So you drive through mostcities and you see these
churches, and many of them ingreat locations, seminaries as
well, but they're simply failing.
And that doesn't mean that's anend to the American faith
community, quite the opposite.
We see major uptick in more lowchurch denominational
evangelical, orthodox, catholic,eastern Orthodoxy and Orthodox
(24:14):
Judaism.
So the Judeo-Christianexperience in America, I think,
is alive and well and I think wewill actually begin to see a
growth in the next generation.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Many of the solutions you call for in your final
chapter in the book rest withAmericans as individuals who can
bring about change, not bylooking to government but by
engaging in their communities,their churches, as you were just
talking about, in schools,businesses.
You suggest ways to revive theAmerican dream and restore
(24:46):
civility and unity in ourcountry.
I picked up some words just toquote directly from you.
You suggest we quote work tobuild consensus, build bridges
and show respect Engage, notdisengage.
How do you think that canhappen?
Or do you think it can?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Well, I do think it can and in fact just before
Christmas I was speaking at avery well-known, very elite New
England liberal arts college andI tried something there which I
was speaking at a verywell-known, very elite New
England liberal arts college andI tried something there which
is I was warned that I was goingto be speaking before a
substantial size of youngprogressives who would rip apart
my worldview, and I decided toecho stumbling toward utopia and
(25:24):
to talk about the importance oflocal churches and local faith
life, our neighborhoods, ourcommunities.
I spoke about regeneration,renewal, restoration at the most
local and organic level,suggesting that if we really
want an American restoration,that it's not going to come from
kind of Washington downward,silicon Valley downward, wall
(25:44):
Street downward, hollywooddownward, that it was going to
begin at the most organic, local, regional, statewide level and
build its way up.
And I was overwhelmed with thenumber of so-called young
progressives who came up to meafterward and said that's what
we want.
They talk at length aboutwanting to be married, they want
(26:05):
to have children, but they saythey're concerned about the
economy, they're concerned abouttheir ability to buy a home,
they want continuity, they wantstability, but they're also risk
takers and I thought to myselfthat's the American dream.
And so I do believe that the wayforward is not by reflecting
back on the 1930s, 40s, 50s andsay we need to go back to this,
(26:28):
we need to go back to this.
You know I'm a conservative.
It's a new era and we have tofind the way forward.
It's about what's ahead and Ifeel very confident that in the
rising generation of youngAmericans we have young people
of goodwill who are impatientfor all the right things.
They've lived through anenormous amount of brokenness
(26:49):
and kind of what I would sayinverted reality and I think
they want the way forward.
And the more that we can talkabout merit, the more that we
can talk about excellence, themore that we can, I think,
pragmatically appeal rightfullyto civility, good order.
I think these are things wherewe will find a lot of resonance,
even with people who may seethe world quite differently than
(27:11):
we do.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
As you know, at the Fund for American Studies, we
devote a lot of attention andresources to working with young
people who are going intojournalism, both at collegiate
students who are working oncampus papers with young
professionals as well.
I'm curious you started yourcareer, as I recall, in
journalism.
Do you have any particularadvice, since you speak to a lot
(27:34):
of college students, that'stailored particularly to young
people who are interested incareers in journalism?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I absolutely do.
I remember, roger, almost ayear ago, being on a panel at a
large state university and itwas gloom and doom.
It was all about the end ofAmerican journalism.
And what I found in thisparticular session was that the
people who were my interlocutorsand the ones who firmly
disagreed with me were reallylooking at an old journalism
(28:03):
model, that they were sort ofmissing the day of an editor who
fully wielded much of theinfluence in a local community.
They were lament of missing theday of an editor who fully
wielded much of the influence ina local community.
They were lamenting the end ofwhat they called gatekeepers and
guardrails in journalism.
And I thought to myself thatmight be a particular moment in
American journalism you knowsort of the 1950s, 60s, 70s but
(28:24):
it's not the moment and the wayforward for American journalism
To ring the bell backwards.
I think this is a fabulous eragoing forward for young
journalists.
I think social media and theworld of the new American
journalism has created wonderfulopportunity after opportunity.
When I was growing up as aconservative in the Midwest, we
(28:46):
used to run every two weeks tothe mailbox to get National
Review or Human Events, tryingto sort of cling on to this kind
of rarity of conservativejournalism.
That's not necessary now in anyway, shape or form, and I think
it's far beyond Fox News or theWall Street Journal editorial
page or National Review they'reall terrific, by the way.
(29:08):
I really mean that.
But I think there are limitlessnumbers of opportunities for
young, bright, smart journalistswho want to go out and tell a
good story, and I actually thinkthat there are excellent ways
now to be involved at a muchyounger age to get the kind of
training you need to be anexcellent editor or writer what
(29:28):
we used to call correspondentand opinion journalism.
I think opinion journalism ismore important now than ever and
I really do not believe that weare polarized ultimately in our
country because we're somehowon either side of a predictable
journalistic bright line.
I think conservatives ofgoodwill want to know what the
left thinks and I I thinkconservatives of goodwill want
to know what the left thinks,and I think progressives of
(29:51):
goodwill want to know whatpeople on the right think.
I don't believe that people ofgoodwill, left and right, are
somehow unable to communicatewith each other anymore.
So I think the future is brightand I hope we will have an
incredibly large number of young, bright, smart conservatives in
the rising generation goinginto and choosing journalism.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
About a year and a half ago, started a student
journalism association.
We have over 400 collegiatejournalists who are members of
that, who are trying to educateand train, and we're sponsoring
over 20 independent collegenewspapers that are doing
exactly what you're sayingtrying to report, be
correspondents.
Get the facts out.
I know we're up against ourtime limit.
I think we gave a general ideaof what Stumbling Ford Utopia is
(30:35):
about.
We touched in more detail onsome of the chapters and themes
in there.
Congratulations, tim, on thisbook.
Do you have another one comingout anytime soon?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I do.
Indeed, I'm going to be doing afifth book, which will come out
in early 2026.
And its theme is Marriage,Family, Parenting, Human Life,
Religious Liberty, ConscienceRights and the Pronoun Debate.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Wow, okay.
Well, we'll look forward toseeing that when you finish it
and it gets published.
Thanks so much for joining theLiberty and Leadership Podcast
today, tim.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Thank you, Roger, and the Fund for American Studies
is matchless.
I love everything you do andit's a real honor to have been
with you.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership Podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(31:43):
things, large and small.
Escape to sunny Naples, florida, for the Fund
for American Studies annualconference this spring, from
March 6th to the 8th.
Enjoy stunning beaches andluxurious surroundings while you
learn from inspiring speakerssuch as Ari Fleischer, former
White House Press Secretary, andKyle Mann, editor-in-chief of
(00:21):
the Babylon Bee.
Join us for engagingdiscussions, networking and a
chance to shape the nextgeneration of courageous leaders
.
The conference takes placeMarch 6th through the 8th at the
(00:42):
Naples Grand.
That's tfasorg slash Naples.
Welcome to the Liberty andLeadership Podcast, a
conversation with TFAS alumni,faculty and friends who are
making an impact.
Today I'm your host, roger Reed.
I'm pleased to welcome TimothyGagline, the Vice President of
(01:04):
External and GovernmentRelations at Focus on the Family
, a Christian ministry andnonprofit organization.
Prior to this role, tim wasspecial assistant to President
George W Bush and DeputyDirector of the White House
Office of Public Liaison,conducting outreach to
conservative and faith-basedorganizations.
(01:25):
During his White House tenure,tim played an integral role in
the nominations of JusticesSamuel Olito and John Roberts to
the United States Supreme Court, and he helped establish the
Office of Faith-Based andCommunity Initiatives at the
White House.
In 2011, tim wrote a memoir ofhis experiences in the Bush
(01:45):
administration and since thenhas written three more books.
His most recent title isStumbling Toward Utopia how the
1960s Turned into a NationalNightmare and how we Can Revive
the American Dream.
It was published in Septemberof 2024 by Fidelis Publishing
Tim.
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's a real pleasure, Roger.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Before we discuss your most recent book, I'd like
to ask you what motivated you tobegin writing books a few years
ago.
This, I think, is at least yourfourth book.
What got you into writing andput you on this path?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, I love that question.
When I departed the White House,a former White House colleague
of mine had had a previousprofessional relationship with a
very important conservativeChristian publisher and she
asked me at lunch one day haveyou ever thought about writing a
memoir not an autobiography,but just a sense of a
(02:48):
combination of two things One,your work in the White House and
in the United States Senate andhow you came into the
conservative movement and someof the ideas, the books, the,
above all, the people who had aninfluence on you.
And candidly I said to her Ihadn't thought about it.
But she said I think you should.
(03:08):
And within two weeks I signed abook deal and thus was born out
of that the man in the Middle,which is my first book, a memoir
which turned out, by God'sgrace alone, to have done very,
very well, and especially in thereflections of the
conservatives and faith-basedaspects of my time working for
George W Bush.
So that's really how it started.
(03:29):
And now it's four books laterand it's actually a lot of work
and a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I have a copy of that first book of yours, the
man in the Middle, subtitled AnInside Account of Faith and
Politics in the George W BushEra.
So congratulations on thesuccess of that first book.
Another question, just kind ofby way of introductory part to
this conversation, is kind ofhow you go about writing the
books.
I mean, you hold down regularemployment.
(03:55):
Do you block a few weeks towrite?
Do you get up early and do itevery day?
Do you focus on the weekends?
But how do you tackle thewriting?
Do you have a routine?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
My teacher of history at Indiana University, now
deceased, robert Farrell, one ofthe great diplomatic historians
of American history and mostwell-known as Harry Truman's
official biographer.
I really benefited from hisfriendship and mentorship, roger
, all those years ago inBloomington, and I remember
(04:28):
having a long afternoon with himnumerous years ago in which I
asked him with specific kind ofdetail how do you write a book?
And he had been Sam Bemis' starstudent at Yale all the years
before and had patterned hisresearch and writing after
Professor Bemis.
I remember coming back fromthat afternoon meeting and
(04:52):
taking extensive notes on what Ihad recalled and I've copied
that method, and the method isquite simple, which is read all
the time, read every opportunityyou have, find a fleet way of
making outlines that arediscernible and applicable and
then begin to grow from that achapter outline and proposal.
(05:13):
It's an involved process, butit's one that really has served
me quite well, particularly inthe third and fourth book, where
it really did take a fairlymonumental research effort,
because the areas that I waswriting about were very heavily
researched already and I wantedto find something new to say.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, that certainly shows in those books and you
document some of those sourcesyou went to for that research
and it was some great sourcesthere.
One more question before wetackle your latest book
Stumbling Toward Utopia In 2023,I believe it was you published
Toward a More Perfect Union theMoral and Cultural Case for
(05:53):
Teaching the Great AmericanStory.
In that book you discussed,among other things, the need to
educate Americans, youngAmericans, all Americans really
about their own history, theAmerican story.
How was that book received?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Very well and in fact , of the four books that I have
written or co-authored, thatparticular book arrived, you may
remember, roger, at a moment ofthe height of Wokistan, erasure
culture, cancel culture andfrankly, when I began the
research on it I was certainlyvery interested and concerned
about cancel culture, but atthat particular moment it really
(06:29):
wasn't kind of in the nationalforefront.
But it was a remarkable momentthat toward a more perfect union
, came out at precisely theheight of the debate over DEI,
wokistan, etc.
You sort of strike, pay dirt ifyou're an author where
something you've been thinkingabout and writing about actually
happens, at a moment whereeverybody left, right and center
(06:53):
seems to be speaking about it,writing about it, etc.
I think for that reason towarda more perfect union, which
really went in, as you know, tosome length about what are the
implications of nationalcultural illiteracy.
It really struck a chord and Iwanted to pick up on that chord
and advance it in StumblingToward Utopia argues that many
(07:25):
of the ills we're sufferingtoday are due to events that can
be traced back to the 1960s.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
But you admittedly don't offer just a simplistic
overview of these things.
You dig into the antecedents tothose events the influence of
the progressives in WoodrowWilson, of John Dewey on our
educational system and manyothers that had influences that
were felt in the 1960s.
Could you please summarize theoverall theme of Stumbling
(07:50):
Toward Utopia?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I'd love to.
I was actually speaking inbehalf of Focus on the Family,
where I've been a vice presidenthere in Washington, believe it
or not for 16 years, and I wasin a debate in Tulsa, oklahoma.
Roger, you're out and aboutspeaking all the time as well
and you offer remarks and thenwe get to what we call the Q&A
(08:11):
and, with pinpointpredictability, for the three
years in this particular periodof time, before I began writing,
researching, stumbling TowardUtopia, with pinpoint
predictability, whether I was infront of a left-wing audience,
right-wing audience ornon-ideological, somebody would
invariably ask the question howdid we get into this mess?
And in other parts of Americanhistory you would say tell me
(08:35):
more about what you're asking.
But in the era that we're in,we all know it's a mess, a
cultural mess.
And after hearing this questionrepeatedly, got on the airplane
and I asked for a short stack ofcocktail napkins and I began to
outline the answer to how wegot into this mess.
And the answer to the mess Icame to conclude was the
(08:58):
cultural and moral cataclysm andrevolution of the 1960s.
If you want to ask the question, how did we get into this mess?
You can really get a lot of theanswer from what happened to
our country culture andcivilization in the 60s and the
1970s, and so I organicallyasked where did the 60s come
(09:18):
from?
And the answer is stumblingtoward utopia and what it all
means for those of us living in21st century America.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well, it's really hard to believe that the decade
of the 60s is more than sixdecades ago, having come of age
as the 60s were passing, andexperiencing some of that as a
teenager.
In the book you do go into.
Some of the antecedents thatled us to the 60s Could begin in
the 60s.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
The 60s began at the turn of the 20th century and it
took the seeds of socialengineering and utopianism
planted in the turn of the 20thcentury to germinate in the
1960s, For instance in the areaof politics and public policy.
(10:07):
President Woodrow Wilson he hadbeen the president of Princeton
, he had been governor of NewJersey, he was a real social
engineer and he was veryuncomfortable with the United
States and the United Statesgovernment.
He wrote at length about hisuncomfortability with the
Declaration of Independence, hisuncomfortability with the
United States Constitution, andhe really reimagined himself as
(10:31):
kind of the American primeminister, changing politics
really forever and really usingprogressivism as the seedbed of
that kind of radicaltransformation.
Roger Baldwin, a veryinfluential founder of the
American Civil Liberties Union,a committed communist, very
uncomfortable with the Americanlaw and legal system.
(10:53):
Margaret Sanger, the founder ofPlanned Parenthood, a very
committed eugenicist, aracialist, really uncomfortable
in writing very demeaning thingsabout the American immigrant
class.
And of course, John Dewey,overwhelmingly the most
transformative, progressivesocial engineering pioneer of
American education, foreverchanging the idea of the
(11:17):
objective nature of wisdom andvirtue as the seedbed of
American education.
And many others.
But this group of peoplefundamentally changing and
pushing forward what wouldbecome the sexual revolution,
the education revolution, thereal revolution, in a bad sense,
for the American government andlegal system.
(11:37):
In many ways, these were theprogenitors of the 1960s.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
The thing they seemed to have in common was the idea
that we could tap the expertiseof elites and that would trump
our traditional Republican formof government, where power came
up from the people and theyelected their representatives to
govern them.
You present that veryeffectively and John Dewey is an
example of that in your book.
I was surprised.
(12:03):
I knew about Dewey and hisbelief system and his effort to
transform our educational system, but you include the quotes
here where he admittedly said hewanted to really change the
social order and the culture inour society.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
In fact two comments, if I may.
John Dewey and Woodrow Wilsonactually have a lot in common To
your earlier comment, Roger.
As you know from StumblingToward Utopia, there's that
remarkable observation fromWoodrow Wilson that the American
experience really would bebetter you know, much better if
we just have the country run byexperts.
(12:36):
This is really in opposition tothe founding principle of
citizen sovereignty.
And, of course, like WoodrowWilson, John Dewey, as you say,
really intentionally wanted toupend the idea of American
education, using the classroomand eventually using higher
education to really transformthe country.
(12:58):
And as you know from the book Ishowed the direct line from
Dewey's radicalism all the waydown to the Port Huron statement
, which is really the 60sblueprint for the radicalization
of American higher education,and using American higher
education as a kind of truncheonagainst the country to
(13:18):
radically transform the country.
And I think that, whether you'respeaking about Sanger or Dewey,
Wilson, Baldwin, many of thepeople that I outlined in
Stumbling Forward Utopia youcome to the conclusion,
ultimately, that they have incommon this Forward Utopia.
You come to the conclusion,ultimately, that they have in
common this utopian vision forthe United States that we can
just socially engineer our wayto a new country.
(13:40):
And when we get to the 60s and70s, you have to ultimately
conclude, and not categorically.
I'm a bottomless optimist and Isay a lot of great things about
the 1960s, but in this regard,the fundamental shift definitely
goes into full force in the 60sand the 70s.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, a little later we'll try to pull out that
optimism that you have.
So we'll get to that.
But let's still focus on thenegative here, and you mentioned
the Port Huron statement, whichwas really the precursor to the
founding of the SDS Studentsfor a Democratic Society, and
Tom Hayden and other radicalswho launched the protest
movement.
What's interesting there Ifound in reading your book, tim,
(14:22):
is while Dewey and to someextent Wilson and others saying
or were explicit in their aims,hayden worked to try to disguise
those aims and you cover thatvery well, I thought, in the
book.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
The Port Huron statement is something that not
just conservatives but everybodywho cares deeply about public
policy and culture and the waythey interact the world of ideas
.
We owe it to ourselves to goback and to not only read the
Port Huron statement I pray thatpeople will read Stumbling
Forward Utopia but to reallybetter understand this very
(14:59):
specific connection betweenideas and consequences.
A now forgotten conservativephilosopher who was at the
University of Chicago, richardWeaver, famously wrote, said,
lectured, that ideas haveconsequences.
Our mutual friend Bill Buckleyused to say only ideas have
consequences and both Weaver andBuckley were right.
(15:22):
And I think that Tom Hayden andmany of the progressives who
had a completely differentworldview than Weaver and
Buckley, rehm and Geiglein,ultimately comes to the view
they were echoing a lot of whatour fellow conservatives believe
that ideas have consequences.
And using the university in anew way, along those Dewey-esque
(15:44):
Woodrow Wilson lines, reallyhelped to fundamentally
transform not only Americaneducation at every level, to
fundamentally transform not onlyAmerican education at every
level but also American culture,politics, the legal system and,
frankly, entertainment andjournalism.
And the Port Huron Statementfor that reason really deserves
to be better understood,internalized and absorbed,
(16:07):
because it's a very importanthistoric document.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Tim, many of the chapters in your book clearly
relate to culture, the ones thatdeal with entertainment, the
sexual revolution, education.
But one chapter thatparticularly struck me was your
chapter on Lyndon Johnson'sGreat Society.
While not necessarilyconsidering government programs
to be impacting the culture, youshow how they did have a
(16:31):
tremendous impact by quotingfrom Lyndon Johnson's speech in
May of 1964.
Could you talk some about thatchapter?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I think that the Great Society is, if I may say,
the penultimate beginning of thedisaster that became the 1960s.
In preparation for writingStumbling Towards Utopia, roger,
I went back and I read all ofLyndon Johnson's major speeches.
I went back to his newsconferences and read the remarks
(17:01):
and comments regarding theGreat Society.
They're voluminous.
The president, in May of 1964,goes to the University of
Michigan in Ann Arbor andlaunches the Great Society and
it's unbelievable, I would sayit's breathtaking to read that
speech and many that follow, inthis kind of Herculean, olympian
(17:22):
sense of what government isgoing to do.
These promises are unbelievableand you can read these speeches
and watch them and what comesto mind is Woodrow Wilson and
Franklin Roosevelt.
You know this kind ofprogressive preparation for the
1960s and the over government,the explosion of government.
(17:43):
What does Lyndon Johnsonpromise?
He promises that government isgoing to solve poverty.
Government is going to resolveall of our inner city issues.
Government is going to solvethe race issue.
Government is going to beinvolved in education.
Government is going to beinvolved in the family and, as
(18:03):
conservatives know, the morethat government incentivizes
something, very often the morethey get it.
And the Great Society,overwhelmingly, is the stumbling
toward utopia, public policy ofcataclysm.
Here it is only 2025 andpoverty is worse.
The marriage and fertilityrates in our country are the
(18:26):
lowest in recorded Americanhistory.
And you go on and on and you goback and look at the great
society and you actuallyempirically not from opinions,
but you empirically measure itand you have to conclude that it
was really a gigantic, agargantuan, colossal failure of
big over-government.
And so I thought it was veryimportant to really spend time
(18:50):
looking at the great society.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a bigsupporter in his life of
Franklin Roosevelt.
Avril Harrowman, the ultimateNew Deal Democrat.
He was a little-knowndemographer in the 1960s this is
only 1965.
And in 1965, he said and foundthat 25% of Black Americans were
(19:14):
born out of wedlock.
He called it a crisis.
Today that number is above 70%53% of Hispanic Americans, 33%
of native-born whites.
The majority of babies born towomen ages 30 years of age and
over are born out of wedlock.
So this is unsustainable andit's incentivized by the
(19:36):
progressive programs and theidea of the 60s and 70s.
And so I think we'rehonor-bound to look at where
this kind of moral and socialrevolution really came from and
what it means.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
There's a common understanding that history often
repeats itself, Tim, and wouldyou say there are any major
cultural shifts happening rightnow in America that may impact
us in six decades or maybesooner?
Do you see promising signs fromthis decade that might give us
hope for the future?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, I'm an inveterate optimist and, I have
to say, if I were to write thenext book, I would be very
tempted to talk Roger at somelength, to write at some length
about what I consider to be alot of the remarkably positive
developments in culture andpublic policy.
For instance, I think we areseeing a new dawn for school
(20:29):
choice.
I think it's quite exciting.
I think we are seeing aparallel series of good news
stories about charter schools,about homeschooling and private
and religious education.
In other words, this idea thata kind of Germanic 19th century
model that the progressivestried to toy around with, I
(20:50):
think we can pretty much say nowis not working for anybody.
And I think that the way forwardin education, there are all
kinds of excellent signs.
I also think, in the world ofentertainment and culture, both
high culture, middle brow,popular culture, I think we are
again seeing fairly good films,we are seeing good television.
(21:12):
With the social media explosionwe have seen a remarkable array
of excellent choices and Ithink that the model of three
networks and two newspapers anda handful of radio stations is
yesterday's news and thedecentralization, the kind of, I
think, counterculture thatAmerican conservatives have
(21:47):
advocated for many, many years.
So I believe that, in the main,remarkable days are ahead for
our great country, and in thebest sort of way.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
You have a chapter in your book about the decline in
mainline Protestantism in ourcountry, which was dramatic
beginning in the 50s, really inthe 60s, and continued up to
this day.
Do you see encouraging signs inthat regard?
Is there a need for a religiousrevival in this country and if
yes, do you see it happening?
I know you work in that field,so I'm interested in your
(22:18):
opinions of that.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I actually believe that we will see a fourth great
awakening and in StumblingToward Utopia, I show the direct
results of the progressiveovertake of much of what we used
to call the Protestant mainline.
Incredibly excellent, positiveforce for good in our country.
(22:43):
It served as a complementarynature, even from the founding,
to what we all consider to begood, healthy public policy and
culture.
But in the 1930s, 40s, 50s,culminating in the 60s and 70s,
as I demonstrate in the book, weshow the complete progressive
(23:06):
overtake of the overwhelmingmajority of what we used to call
, as I say, the Protestantmainline Presbyterians,
methodists, etc.
Etc.
And in almost every instancewhere progressivism and social
justice replaces, broadlyspeaking, biblical orthodoxy,
you have not just a smalldecline, you have a hollowing
out of that part of the Americanreligious experience.
(23:28):
Now it's important to say that,even though the seminaries and
many of those churches have losthistoric numbers of members in
many ways, on Sunday mornings orWednesday nights really there's
not very many people there.
We also have to say thatbecause of earlier faith and the
commitment of people in thoseparishes, churches, places of
worship, they are very largeproperty holders.
(23:51):
So you drive through mostcities and you see these
churches, and many of them ingreat locations, seminaries as
well, but they're simply failing.
And that doesn't mean that's anend to the American faith
community, quite the opposite.
We see major uptick in more lowchurch denominational
evangelical, orthodox, catholic,eastern Orthodoxy and Orthodox
(24:14):
Judaism.
So the Judeo-Christianexperience in America, I think,
is alive and well and I think wewill actually begin to see a
growth in the next generation.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Many of the solutions you call for in your final
chapter in the book rest withAmericans as individuals who can
bring about change, not bylooking to government but by
engaging in their communities,their churches, as you were just
talking about, in schools,businesses.
You suggest ways to revive theAmerican dream and restore
(24:46):
civility and unity in ourcountry.
I picked up some words just toquote directly from you.
You suggest we quote work tobuild consensus, build bridges
and show respect Engage, notdisengage.
How do you think that canhappen?
Or do you think it can?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Well, I do think it can and in fact just before
Christmas I was speaking at avery well-known, very elite New
England liberal arts college andI tried something there which I
was speaking at a verywell-known, very elite New
England liberal arts college andI tried something there which
is I was warned that I was goingto be speaking before a
substantial size of youngprogressives who would rip apart
my worldview, and I decided toecho stumbling toward utopia and
(25:24):
to talk about the importance oflocal churches and local faith
life, our neighborhoods, ourcommunities.
I spoke about regeneration,renewal, restoration at the most
local and organic level,suggesting that if we really
want an American restoration,that it's not going to come from
kind of Washington downward,silicon Valley downward, wall
(25:44):
Street downward, hollywooddownward, that it was going to
begin at the most organic, local, regional, statewide level and
build its way up.
And I was overwhelmed with thenumber of so-called young
progressives who came up to meafterward and said that's what
we want.
They talk at length aboutwanting to be married, they want
(26:05):
to have children, but they saythey're concerned about the
economy, they're concerned abouttheir ability to buy a home,
they want continuity, they wantstability, but they're also risk
takers and I thought to myselfthat's the American dream.
And so I do believe that the wayforward is not by reflecting
back on the 1930s, 40s, 50s andsay we need to go back to this,
(26:28):
we need to go back to this.
You know I'm a conservative.
It's a new era and we have tofind the way forward.
It's about what's ahead and Ifeel very confident that in the
rising generation of youngAmericans we have young people
of goodwill who are impatientfor all the right things.
They've lived through anenormous amount of brokenness
(26:49):
and kind of what I would sayinverted reality and I think
they want the way forward.
And the more that we can talkabout merit, the more that we
can talk about excellence, themore that we can, I think,
pragmatically appeal rightfullyto civility, good order.
I think these are things wherewe will find a lot of resonance,
even with people who may seethe world quite differently than
(27:11):
we do.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
As you know, at the Fund for American Studies, we
devote a lot of attention andresources to working with young
people who are going intojournalism, both at collegiate
students who are working oncampus papers with young
professionals as well.
I'm curious you started yourcareer, as I recall, in
journalism.
Do you have any particularadvice, since you speak to a lot
(27:34):
of college students, that'stailored particularly to young
people who are interested incareers in journalism?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I absolutely do.
I remember, roger, almost ayear ago, being on a panel at a
large state university and itwas gloom and doom.
It was all about the end ofAmerican journalism.
And what I found in thisparticular session was that the
people who were my interlocutorsand the ones who firmly
disagreed with me were reallylooking at an old journalism
(28:03):
model, that they were sort ofmissing the day of an editor who
fully wielded much of theinfluence in a local community.
They were lament of missing theday of an editor who fully
wielded much of the influence ina local community.
They were lamenting the end ofwhat they called gatekeepers and
guardrails in journalism.
And I thought to myself thatmight be a particular moment in
American journalism you knowsort of the 1950s, 60s, 70s but
(28:24):
it's not the moment and the wayforward for American journalism
To ring the bell backwards.
I think this is a fabulous eragoing forward for young
journalists.
I think social media and theworld of the new American
journalism has created wonderfulopportunity after opportunity.
When I was growing up as aconservative in the Midwest, we
(28:46):
used to run every two weeks tothe mailbox to get National
Review or Human Events, tryingto sort of cling on to this kind
of rarity of conservativejournalism.
That's not necessary now in anyway, shape or form, and I think
it's far beyond Fox News or theWall Street Journal editorial
page or National Review they'reall terrific, by the way.
(29:08):
I really mean that.
But I think there are limitlessnumbers of opportunities for
young, bright, smart journalistswho want to go out and tell a
good story, and I actually thinkthat there are excellent ways
now to be involved at a muchyounger age to get the kind of
training you need to be anexcellent editor or writer what
(29:28):
we used to call correspondentand opinion journalism.
I think opinion journalism ismore important now than ever and
I really do not believe that weare polarized ultimately in our
country because we're somehowon either side of a predictable
journalistic bright line.
I think conservatives ofgoodwill want to know what the
left thinks and I I thinkconservatives of goodwill want
to know what the left thinks,and I think progressives of
(29:51):
goodwill want to know whatpeople on the right think.
I don't believe that people ofgoodwill, left and right, are
somehow unable to communicatewith each other anymore.
So I think the future is brightand I hope we will have an
incredibly large number of young, bright, smart conservatives in
the rising generation goinginto and choosing journalism.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
About a year and a half ago, started a student
journalism association.
We have over 400 collegiatejournalists who are members of
that, who are trying to educateand train, and we're sponsoring
over 20 independent collegenewspapers that are doing
exactly what you're sayingtrying to report, be
correspondents.
Get the facts out.
I know we're up against ourtime limit.
I think we gave a general ideaof what Stumbling Ford Utopia is
(30:35):
about.
We touched in more detail onsome of the chapters and themes
in there.
Congratulations, tim, on thisbook.
Do you have another one comingout anytime soon?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I do.
Indeed, I'm going to be doing afifth book, which will come out
in early 2026.
And its theme is Marriage,Family, Parenting, Human Life,
Religious Liberty, ConscienceRights and the Pronoun Debate.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Wow, okay.
Well, we'll look forward toseeing that when you finish it
and it gets published.
Thanks so much for joining theLiberty and Leadership Podcast
today, tim.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Thank you, Roger, and the Fund for American Studies
is matchless.
I love everything you do andit's a real honor to have been
with you.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Thank you for listening to the Liberty and
Leadership Podcast.
If you have a comment orquestion, please drop us an
email at podcast at tfasorg, andbe sure to subscribe to the
show on your favorite podcastapp and leave a five-star review
.
Liberty and Leadership isproduced at Podville Media.
I'm your host, roger Ream, anduntil next time, show courage in
(31:43):
things, large and small.
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