September 29, 2025 • 46 mins
What if the missing element in your health isn't another supplement or diet change, but something as fundamental as light? In this illuminating conversation, Sarah Turner reveals how our modern indoor lifestyle has created a profound deficiency in specific wavelengths of light that our bodies evolved to require.
Turner, founder of CeraThrive and creator of an innovative red light therapy device, explains the fascinating science behind photobiomodulation – how red and near-infrared light penetrate human tissue to activate cellular healing mechanisms. Her journey from pharmaceutical research to developing light therapy technology highlights a crucial insight: our bodies function optimally when they receive the natural light patterns they evolved with over thousands of years.
The most compelling aspect of this discussion centers on the gut-brain connection. Turner's device uniquely targets both ends of this axis, recognizing that true brain health begins with gut health. She shares surprising observations about how many people have normalized their gut dysfunction, not realizing these issues directly impact their brain function, energy levels, and mood regulation.
With the precision of a scientist and the accessibility of a skilled communicator, Turner breaks down complex concepts around wavelengths, mitochondrial function, and the emerging field of "photobiomics" – how light affects our microbiome. She offers practical guidance for navigating the confusing world of light therapy devices, helping listeners understand what to look for and what questions to ask before investing.
This conversation expands our understanding of what constitutes essential nutrition. Beyond food, water, and supplements, specific wavelengths of light emerge as critical nutrients our bodies require for optimal functioning. Turner's work represents a fascinating frontier where ancient wisdom about sunrise and sunset meets cutting-edge technology to address modern health challenges.
Whether you're dealing with brain fog, fatigue, mood issues, or gut problems, this episode offers fresh perspective on a therapeutic approach that works with your body's natural processes. Discover how reintroducing the right light into your life might illuminate your path to better health.
Get 10% off your CeraThrive CeraSystem with this link and code: Recovery10
https://www.cerathrive.com/recovery
Instagram: @_rebel_scientist
Get 20% off your first order of Puori protein with code LIFEAFTERIMPACT by following this link.
Dr. Wolf's book Concussion Breakthrough: Discover the Missing Pieces of Concussion Recovery is now available on Amazon!
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Website: lifeafterimpact.com
Medical disclaimer: this video or podcast is for general informational purposes only, and does not constitute the practice of medicine or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. The use of this information and materials included is at the user's own risk. The content of this video or podcast is not intended to be a substitute for medical advice diagnosis or treatment. Consumers of this information should seek the advice of a medical professional for any and all health related issues.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
We're looking at how light interacts with our
(00:03):
microbiome.
And you know, the microbiome issuch an interesting and cool
topic when you think actuallywe're we're more bacterial cells
than human cells.
SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Welcome to Life After Impact, the Concussion
Recovery Podcast.
I'm Dr.
Ayla Wolf, and I will be hostingtoday's episode where we help
you navigate the oftenconfusing, frustrating, and
overwhelming journey ofconcussion and brain injury
recovery.
This podcast is your go-toresource for actionable
information, whether you'redealing with a recent
(00:35):
concussion, struggling withpost-concussion syndrome, or
just feeling stuck in yourhealing process.
In each episode, we dive deepinto the symptoms, testing,
treatments, and neurologicalinsights that can help you move
forward with clarity andconfidence.
We bring you leading experts inthe world of brain health,
functional neurology, andrehabilitation to share their
(00:57):
wisdom and strategies.
So if you're feeling lost,hopeless, or like no one
understands what you're goingthrough, know that you are not
alone.
This podcast can be your guideand partner in recovery, helping
you build a better life afterimpact.
Sarah Turner, welcome to LifeAfter Impact.
(01:17):
It's so great to see you againand to be able to uh catch up.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
Yeah, a lot has happened since I talked to you
quite a while ago.
You have your own podcast, TheRebel Scientist.
You started a company calledSarah Thrive, which has a really
unique red light therapy devicethat targets the gut brain axis.
And so I'm really excited tolearn more about uh your journey
with creating that device.
(01:45):
And I know you're involved in alot of red light therapy
research.
So why don't you start out bygiving us a little bit about
your scientific background andthen what got you into this
whole field?
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Yes, I had a bit of a um a random walk into this uh
this kind of field, if you like,because I started out really in
fairly orthodox science.
I started off inpharmaceuticals, uh mainly
working for um GSK.
Uh, and at the time I waslooking at drug delivery
devices.
So still in the devices, but atthe time I was looking at how do
(02:20):
you deliver drugs to people,most notably um asthma drugs.
Uh, and it was during that timethat I did a lot of experiments
with the company about um whatyou need to do in order to get
good drug deposition into thebody.
Of course, I was using a fakelung, you know, I was kind of on
the benches, I wasn't inclinical.
(02:41):
Um, but things like groundinghave a big effect.
So whether you're kind ofgrounded while you're delivering
these uh drugs to people has amassive effect on deposition,
certainly as shown in one ofthese kind of uh simulated
lungs.
And really, what that led me toconclude is really it's about
the state of the person, not somuch, you know, the the
(03:02):
intervention that you're tryingto do.
Um and actually I left uh thedrug industry shortly after that
because I began to see thatreally it's it's about how we
look after the individual, youknow, your environment, the
state of your own health, morethan kind of trying to
administer um a drug that haspotential side effects long
(03:22):
term.
So I kind of stepped out ofpharmaceutical and I went into
nutrition because I thought,okay, maybe we can prime the
body with nutrition.
Uh, but that doesn't really gofar enough.
I ended up doing um a master'sin uh clinical neuroscience.
Um, and then I started to lookvery closely at light and how
light interacts with biology.
(03:43):
And the interesting thing was inall of the qualifications, in
all the education, and in allthat industrial experience,
nobody had ever told me abouthow light interacts with
biology.
And it seems like it's uh ascience which is only now
beginning to kind of um gathersome traction, although really
it's has a very old history, youknow.
(04:04):
Um, Niles Vinson won the NobelPrize from it, you know, a
couple of hundred years ago.
So uh we're just now beginningto see the fruits of all the
research intophotobiomodulation.
So because I have clinicalneuroscience, that's why I'm
applying it to the brain.
But of course, light therapy isused in a lot of uh different
applications.
SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
Yeah, one of my favorite research papers that
really talks about the gut brainaxis defines it as the gut
microbiota gut brain axis,because obviously when we're
interacting with the gut, we'realso interacting with trillions
of bacteria and other life formsthat are in our gut and making
things happen as far asdigesting our food and turning
(04:45):
that into neurotransmitters.
And so, um, have you also kindof uh specifically studied
what's happening when we shinelight on all these gut microbes?
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Yeah, uh that is a fascinating topic.
And I think again, it's gonnabecome a new science.
Already there's been a paperpublished, which you'll love if
you like this topic, calledPhotobiomics.
Uh, and it was coined by Dr.
Ann Liebert and her team inAustralia, but that that's doing
exactly that.
We're looking at how lightinteracts with our microbiome.
(05:18):
And and you know, the microbiomeis such an interesting and cool
topic when you think actuallywe're we're more bacterial cells
than human cells.
You know, we really are acommunity of species.
We kind of walk around like, youknow, thinking that we're kind
of this, you know, I'm Sarah,I'm doing this and that.
But you know, actually, we are acolony of uh bacteria, viruses,
(05:42):
microbes, you know, all kinds ofthings.
So taking care of that part ofour being is hugely important.
Um perhaps we'll talk a littlebit about how red light therapy
works, but it mainly works bytargeting the mitochondria,
which are tiny organelles insideour cells.
These are very similar actuallyto bacteria.
And in fact, probably from anancestral point of view, you
(06:04):
know, these mitochondria or howwe make energy in our body is
probably a symbioticrelationship, you know, many,
you know, millions of years agowhen we had multicellular
organisms.
So it should be no surprise tous that bacteria are responding
to light, that we can target ourbacteria with light and that we
have this effect.
So you're totally right.
(06:24):
How having this microbiome gutbrain axis is hugely important.
It's it's again, it's one ofthese topics that's gaining
traction.
And I'm interested to see howred light therapy in particular
can target both our human cellsand our bacterial cells to have
that beneficial effect.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
When we shine red light, there Iwas there's a lot of devices on
the market.
Yours has very specificwavelengths.
Do you want to talk?
I mean, a little bit, not gettoo sciencey or technical, but
do you want to talk a little bitabout the difference between red
light, near infrared, thedifferent wavelengths, and why
that's important?
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
Yeah, I'll I'll kind of keep it top level because I
think the thing that most peopleneed to understand is this kind
of uh wavelength of light.
And when we say wavelength,we're referring to the colour.
The colour defines thewavelength.
So red light um has a specificwavelength range, and the near
infrared light is just a littlebit longer range.
It's outside of our visiblespectrum, so we call it
(07:26):
infrared.
But we're talking about, if youthink about the rainbow of
colours, we're talking about thelonger wavelengths of light.
And because of the angle of thesun at different times of day,
we see a lot of this red lightat sunrise and sunset.
That's why we get thesefabulous, you know, beautiful
orangey, red, e-pink sunrisesand sunsets.
(07:48):
Because of the way the sun isangled at that time of day,
that's when we get this light.
And our bodies are very in tunewith this light because really,
up until 200 years ago, ashumans, we would be outside most
of the day, you know.
Most of our evolutionary historywould be living actually
outside.
You know, we we only haverelatively recently lived this
(08:08):
indoor lifestyle.
So our bodies are very muchdesigned to do certain things at
different times of day.
And when we see that red light,the red and near infrared at
sunrise, it sets off a wholecascade of reactions in our
bodies.
It also kind of prepares us forthe day, and then in the evening
it prepares us for sleep andregeneration.
So as a species now, we're verydeficient in this longer
(08:31):
wavelength light, the light wewould see at sunrise and sun.
So it is present at the rest ofthe time, but that's when we
would kind of see the most of itin comparison to the other
wavelengths.
So I think, you know, for forpeople who don't want to get too
much into the science, what wereally need to know is we we are
animals that have really evolvedoutside.
We really do need to see thatred light, which we see at
(08:54):
sunrise and sunset.
If we don't, and almost all ofus don't now, we become
deficient.
It's almost like a vitamindeficiency.
You know, if you're deficient init, you need to put it back.
And so, really, that's what thisred light technology is doing.
It's not doing anything alien tothe body, it's just putting back
those wavelengths of light thatwe've kind of removed from our
(09:14):
lives by living in houses andhaving blue screens and doing
all the things that we do now.
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
Yeah, I love that you just boil it down to that
level of simplicity.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Yes.
Because you can't, you know,there's so much to the science.
But really, if we're kind ofthinking about why would red
light have this effect, that'swhy, you know, we we are still,
although we're very umsophisticated in our technology
at the moment, you know, thiskind of time, this era of
civilization, we're still livingvery basic bodies.
You know, our bodies are stillthose bodies that, you know,
(09:47):
have evolved 200,000 years ago.
We still have the same lightreceptors, we still have the
same little organelles producingenergy.
So we really need to think abouthow we can nurture that part of
our evolutionary selves.
If we can't be outside all thetime, we need to find a way to
replace that light that we'rejust not seeing.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And what makes your device thatyou created unique is that it
has both a kind of transcranialcomponent, a headband that you
wear, in addition to a panelthat you place on your abdomen
to actually get red light toboth places.
Um I love that.
So talk a little bit about kindof the interface of your device
(10:29):
and how that works.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
Yeah, maybe I'll demo it.
I don't know if you do video.
Yeah, yeah.
But I can talk you through itbecause sometimes, you know,
people see my device and theythink it's like a visor.
It looks a bit like Star Trek,you know, where you have the
device over your eyes.
But actually, it's very simple.
So what I'm showing you now isthe headband and it just has
clusters, and you can see thered there, and in between, you
(12:03):
know, those dots, that's nearinfrared, so it's just as
bright, it's just not visible tothe human eye.
So the main reason I've put redin there is one because we want
to get superficial, you know.
Most of these masks that peopleare used to for collagen in the
skin, they're red because it'ssuperficial, but you're still
getting through the skin.
And then the near infrared willactually go straight through the
(12:25):
skull and onto the surface ofthe brain.
That kind of trips on peopleout.
So there you just push it hereagainst the forehead.
So that's the frontal cortex.
A lot of projections end in thatarea, and there's no hair there
as a barrier.
So you can go straight throughonto that area, and then the
body panel, very, very simple.
(12:46):
You know, we don't need to kindof have really complicated tech.
This is just red, and you cansee the near infrared, and this
you can just place over theabdomen because actually the
abdomen is a really good sitefor getting light into the body,
you know, there's less barriers,you haven't got to go through
bone, it will go straightthrough, you know, five
centimetres deep.
In some people, that will gostraight through the gut.
(13:07):
In other people, depending onkind of visceral fat and things
like that, it might justpenetrate that.
But you create by healing thegut, you create a better
environment for the goodbacteria.
So whether or not you'redirectly getting to those
bacteria, or whether you're justcreating that environment by
sealing tight junctions in thegut.
For me, getting to the gut firstis an intrinsic part of having a
(13:31):
good brain.
It's very difficult to have agood brain if your gut's out of
whack or if you've gotmetabolites leaking into your
body and and uh inflammation,communication via the vagus
nerve.
Really, to have a good brain, wewe really want to heal that gut
first.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Love it.
Yeah.
And then do you uh run thatthrough a phone app?
Is that how it works?
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
Yes, I use an app.
Um and the reason I use an appis because as well as putting
the light onto the surface ofthe brain, we can also pulse the
light to different brainwavefrequencies.
So people may have heard ofthings like alpha and gamma
brainwave frequencies becausethe brain is oscillating and we
(14:17):
can detect that on the surfaceof the brain.
Uh, and so we give those uhthose numbers.
So, for example, what we'reattending to each other right
now, we're engaged in thislovely conversation.
So we're probably in a fairly uhconsistent gamma phase, which
means our brains are oscillatingaround about 40 times a second
because that's the attentivephase.
Some people find it difficult toget into these phases, maybe
(14:41):
because of um injury or diseaseor or just being tired or
whatever.
So we can almost show the brainthat 40 hertz frequency by
turning that light source offand on 40 times a second, and
then the brain responds by kindof upping its frequency.
So we can go up or down.
I have six different programsthat enable you to get into
(15:03):
different brainwave states.
So I do use an app for that, butthen on top of the device I have
a Bluetooth disable.
So for people who don't want tohave Bluetooth on their head,
and it's not a great idea, youknow, you don't really want to
have those things in your earseither.
It's best to turn any kind ofBluetooth off.
So you can set the uh program onyour phone, get the device
(15:24):
going, turn the Bluetooth off,and then you have um a program
that's more bespoke to whatyou're trying to do that day.
Awesome.
You've thought of everything.
unknown (15:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Do you know that the dev team are like, why would
they all kind of got their earpods in?
Why would you ever want to turnBluetooth off?
And I'm like, well, you know,some people are very sensitive,
and it is a good idea.
I mean, I know in the daytimewe're kind of all sitting in the
Wi-Fi, and you know, if you'reliving in a tower block, you
know, it's something you can'treally avoid.
But I think, you know, littlethings to reduce it as much as
(15:56):
possible.
If you're not using your phone,have it on airplane, turn the
Wi-Fi off at night.
We can do little things to tryand limit the exposure of these
kinds of um frequencies thatperhaps are not so healthy.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Uh I definitely turn my phoneinto airplane mode every night
before I go to bed.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
Yeah, I think it's a wise thing to do.
And so, I mean, you don't wantto get phone calls waking you up
anyway, and it's just a simplething to do.
And like I say, some of thesetechnologies, it's just about
okay, how can I just uh a littlebit turn down some of these
exposures that I'm getting?
You know, I don't think we needto get too caught up with it
because it is the world we livein, but little things, let's
(16:38):
just try and reduce thatexposure.
It's like your diet, isn't it?
Try not to eat processed food,you know, just try to cut down
all the junk as much as you can.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
Right.
The the 80-20 rule or maybe the90-10 rule if you're trying to
have a little more discipline.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
Yeah, excellent.
Thank you so much.
How long has this device been onthe market?
And have you heard a lot offeedback from people?
Like, what has the feedbackbeen?
SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
So the device has been on the market now.
We've just had our two-yearbirthday last weekend.
Oh, happy birthday.
The company's been going alittle bit longer because
actually there was a lot ofproduct development went into
the device.
So we had a we had a whole yearof product development before we
actually went into producing thedevice.
But we have had some excellentfeedback.
(17:24):
Um, we've had feedback frompeople with all kinds of
conditions that have gone fromwherever they're at to improved.
Um, so we now have a group ofpeople with um ALS, we have a
group of people with young onsetParkinson's.
And I do need to make the caveatthat I'm not saying that we're
in any way curing, treating,diagnosing, or preventing any of
(17:46):
these diseases, but just peoplehave seen they've gone from a
baseline of where they're at tobetter.
So better sleep, bettermovement, better memory, you
know, enhanced relationships,being able to be resilient and
deal with stressful situations.
So we're we do have quite a lotof groups now for different
things where people have reallystarted to see the effect.
(18:08):
I think healthy people also, youknow, that's another interesting
thing.
Healthy people also have seenlike more of a cognitive
enhancement effect.
And also, I was very amazed tohear how many people had
low-level gut issues that didn'teven realise.
Because a lot of people willcome to me and say, Oh, did I
tell you that I had kind of, youknow, bloating and all of that,
(18:31):
and I don't get it anymore?
And I thought, well, you didn'tmention it, and they're like,
Well, I just thought it wassomething I lived with.
You know, I think we're at thiscrazy place at the moment where
people are just living with allkinds of gut issues because it
seems normal.
Everybody's got it, so it'ssomething, you know, people are
very focused on what's going onwith their brain.
But a lot of the times the thegut is kind of the first, the
(18:53):
first indicator that's somethingwrong.
So any kind of gut issues, Ithink, should be nipped in the
bud.
And you and it's not normal tokind of have these things, you
know, it is something that is uhyou can do something about very
easily.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Yeah, I would agree.
I see a lot of gut dysfunctionas well.
And usually it's not it's notpeople's um main complaint.
It might not even be the topfive main complaints that they
walk in with, but it's so oftenpart of the clinical
presentation that that peopleare suffering from different gut
issues.
And like you said, many of themdo just kind of live with it and
think that this is normal andthis is just part of my life,
(19:30):
and don't necessarily realizethere are things that can be
done.
And uh, so I love that yourdevice it works on both ends,
the the gut and the brain.
And I've been listening to someinteresting uh information on
the use of bitters, too, andjust how important all the
different bitters are in ourdiet and how many of them are
removed because many peopledon't like the bitter flavor of
(19:54):
things.
And so uh hundreds of years ago,even our grains had more of a
bitter taste to them, and we'vesince kind of like genetically
modified that out.
And so, even with like whatwe're eating every day, we're
not getting those bitters thatstimulate digestion before we
even put food in our mouth or assoon as we do.
So it's like we have to approachthis gut issue from so many
(20:16):
different angles, you know, frommaking sure the brain is
healthy, making sure we havebitters in our diet, getting red
light in our bodies, all thethings.
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
All the things, and you're right.
It's just I think we've movedtowards this kind of comfort,
you know, we've kind of movedtowards a very comfortable
lifestyle and things, you know,extreme cold, well not even
extreme, but just uncomfortablecold, uncomfortable heat, like
you say, bitter, you know, allof these things are are things
that uh are like a home uhhometic stress, you know, a
(20:50):
little bit of hormesis.
A little bit of stress on thebody is good because the body
bounces back from that.
And I think, you know, if wekind of coast along too in too
comfortable a lane, there'sabsolutely no pressure on the
body to develop any kind ofresistance, and it's all very
well and good until somethinghappens, and then you haven't
got the resistance to deal withit.
So I I agree with you.
(21:11):
I think trying to bring in someof these things which are maybe
a little bit uncomfortable, youknow.
I do hot yoga, I I know I've gotfriends who do kind of the cold
showers, you know, that's reallywhat we need to do to kind of
give our body that thatrobustness that we need.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Exactly.
I mean, where I live, it getspretty cold in the winter time.
And so for me, as fall uh sinksin, I usually try to sleep with
my window open and actually getmy body used to sleeping in much
colder temperatures so that whenit then is below freezing, you
know, my hypothalamus has kindof had a chance to be like,
okay, I'm I've I've been youknow worked into this.
(21:50):
It wasn't just that I went froma 70 degree temperature
controlled house to now it'snegative 10 outside.
And so yeah, for me, I even Idon't love cold plunges, but I
do definitely get a lot of coldexposure just by nature of where
I live and kind of trying to getthat cold air into my bedroom at
nighttime as long as possiblebefore it gets a little, you
(22:12):
know, I don't want my house tobe 30 degrees when I wake up,
but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
No, I get it.
And that there's very easy waysto do some of these things, like
you know, the ext, you know, yousee these extreme buyer hackers
sitting in these tubs of ice andthings.
But you're right, just having anopen window or kind of, you
know, on a frosty morning inEngland, standing outside
without your shoes and socks onjust for 10 minutes, you know,
it's not something that has tobe, you know, you know, you have
to total the brave out or buylike a you know a 12 grand i've
(22:39):
to no, you just have to kind ofput your body in these
uncomfortable things or or justbe sensible.
You like light is so important.
Could you put your desk next toa window?
Could you open the window?
Could you do some of yourmeetings outside?
You know, I think some of thesethings are much easier than
people think.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.
I know the recommendation is totry to get outside first thing
in the morning for that morningsunlight.
And luckily for me, I have a dogthat wants to go outside first
thing when he wakes up.
So uh I can go and I can throwthe ball to him first thing in
the morning and get my morningsunlight.
So he's kind of my um, I I don'tknow, I probably wouldn't just
(23:17):
go outside and walk and juststand there for 15 minutes and
do nothing.
I like to be doing things allthe time.
So he uh he's my excuse for mymorning sunlight.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
Yeah, whatever works for you.
I like to sometimes just go andstand there and kind of just try
and see that sun coming up, orif I'm in a place where I need
to walk to the sunrise, all thebetter.
But it is so crucial and it is asimple thing.
And if you miss out, it youreally are like trying to get
through the day with one handtied behind your back because
(23:47):
your body hasn't done the thingsthat it needs to do.
I mean, people talk aboutmelatonin as the hormone of
darkness, but you actually makeit in the morning in response to
seeing that morning sun.
You know, cortisol levels,female hormones, male hormones,
all these things are set.
Even how your skin is sulfatedto deal with UV light in the
middle of the day, you know,people just uh really maybe
(24:10):
don't prioritize that.
I mean, that's what you know,red light devices are great for
putting it back.
So I always say number one, getoutside as much as you can, see
the sunrise.
Number two, have a backup plan,have your red light therapy
device because if you've missedit or you know, you're you're
rushing around, you can veryeasily put that back.
(24:30):
But if you consistently miss it,then then you know you're
running your body without doingthe things that the body needs
to do to really, you know, beready for the day.
You know, it's kind of likenever ever servicing your car,
just running and running andrunning it.
You know, things are gonna wearout.
SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
Yeah.
So I have a question.
Obviously, where I live, it'sdark, you know, we don't get the
sun very high in the sky fromSeptember to May.
And so many people do sufferfrom seasonal affective
disorder.
And I think a lot of peopledon't even recognize that
they're suffering from seasonalaffective disorder.
They just are feeling moretired, more lethargic, a little,
(25:07):
maybe not like full-ondepression, but a little more
down, not quite as motivated togo out and do things when it's
dark by 5 p.m.
And so usually, you know, when Iwas growing up, I always would
see that people would have thesesunboxes with certain
wavelengths of light.
But are you also seeing, or doyou find that the red
wavelengths of light are alsotherapeutic for kind of
(25:30):
offsetting that seasonalaffective disorder that people
deal with in the winter?
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah, I mean, seasonal affective disorder is
usually because people aremissing out on all the
wavelengths of light, becausethe light contains such a broad
spectrum of the frequencies.
So a lot of the light boxes thatyou mentioned are broad
spectrum, they're not just theum red and the near infrared.
Because although we talk a lotabout blue light uh toxicity,
(25:56):
you know, you need a certainamount for dopamine levels at
the right times of day, youknow.
So if you're if you're in a verydark place, you know, you're not
getting exposed to any of thewavelengths.
But certainly the near the redand the near infrared light, the
that seems to activate thebody's healing mechanisms,
probably because that's when wesee it, sunrise and sunset.
(26:17):
So you're setting your healingmechanisms up, you know, to
prepare yourself for anyinjuries you might get in the
day.
And then at evening, you're kindof doing all kinds of things to
heal the body as you sleep.
So things things like you know,anxiety and depression and mood
are very closely linked to that.
So we do find for a lot ofpeople it is a mood lifter, red
(26:38):
light therapy.
I mean, like I say, if youreally have full-on seasonal
effective and you're becauseyou're in a very dark
environment, I would recommendone of the full spectrum ones as
well, actually.
You know, get both.
Sure.
I have a lovely friend calledGuti who's got a company called
Mytolux, and he makes one thatactually puts out the the UV as
well, so you can your body canproduce vitamin D because that's
(26:59):
something that you don't do inthese kind of very northern
places.
But from a perspective ofimproving mood, certainly these
red light therapy devices haveshown consistently to elevate
mood.
So if if you're kind of, youknow, you're able to get
outside, but you're stillfeeling a little bit down, I I
would say to try the red light,because the red light will
(27:21):
charge your mitochondria, giveyour body a lot more energy too.
Sometimes, you know, what we'refeeling is just a depletion of
energy, just as simple as that.
So if your mitochondria canproduce more energy in the form
of ATP, which is this moleculethat the body uses for energy,
then I think everything worksbetter, you know.
Everything works better, yourmood's better, you're elevated,
(27:43):
you can heal better.
So, yeah, it is a slightlydifferent topic having full-on
seasonal effective, then youneed the broad spectrum.
Um, but yeah, red light therapywill definitely help with mood.
Yeah.
Still still helps with that moodlift.
Awesome.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
And are you involved in any current clinical trials
or studies?
Or if there if there was a studyyou could do, what would it look
like?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
So I have a couple underway with my actual device.
So I have a study actually inNorth Africa with autistic
spectrum disorder, uh, which isobviously a childhood
developmental disorder.
So looking at things like uhmood regulation, um, and that is
based on some previous researchthat's already been done that's
shown that red light therapycould potentially help with
(28:30):
that.
So we're supplying the devicesfor that study.
Also, as I've mentioned, um, ALSand Young Onset Parkinson's,
we're doing case documented casehistories uh in association with
Professor Paul Shazau at DurhamUniversity.
So it's not a clinical trial.
Uh, we won't be able to publishany kind of clinical data, but
(28:50):
we can publish documented casehistories that have been
properly reviewed with properdata collection.
So we're kind of doing ourlittle bit that we can do with
the limited funds that we havefor these trials because, as I'm
sure you'll know, full-onclinical trials are a massive
undertaking.
I'm hoping that we will be ableto raise some funds going
(29:10):
forward to do these big clinicaltrials.
But there are a lot of peoplewho are currently doing that
using very similar outputs andwavelengths to the one in Sarah
Thrive.
So that's another cool thingthat's going on, is we can keep
an eye on what's happening andthen prove equivalence to other
devices too.
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and I know you know you'vementioned Parkinson's and these
neurodegenerative diseases, andit does seem like the future of
neurodegenerative diseaseresearch really is on that
intersection betweenmitochondrial health and
inflammatory processes, and howdo we actually improve the
functioning and the health ofthe mitochondria and what are
(29:48):
the downstream uh effects ofthat in terms of does that kind
of mitigate inflammation andneuroinflammation?
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yeah, for sure.
It's it's a very interesting uhuh field of study that's gaining
a lot of traction right now.
Let's say in the US, a lot ofresearch is being conducted with
the Veterans Association lookingat things like, well,
neurodegeneration, but also umTBI and PTSD.
Um and yes, uh even at Harvard,uh Professor uh Paolo Cassano is
(30:18):
looking at psychiatricconditions.
So we're kind of I'm I feel likewe're almost on the crest of the
wave where we're going to startto see some of those medical
approvals, then of course thatwill open the door for a lot of
things to happen.
Because at the moment, we justneed to build the clinical
evidence to a point where it'saccepted by the regulatory
authorities.
We're not quite there yet, but Ican see it.
(30:39):
I can see it happening verysoon.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Yeah, amazing.
And then what kind of advice doyou have for people who?
I mean, I've had patients thathave said to me, Oh, I went and
I bought like a$40 red lightdevice at uh the store down the
street.
So, how like what would you sayto people in terms of like when
they're looking for a device,what are the things that they
need to be looking for sothey're not wasting their money
(31:02):
on things that are ineffective?
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Yeah, every this is a very common question because
it's very difficult to know.
Uh What you need.
I think the first thing is whatis your goal?
Because most of the devices aredesigned for a specific goal.
So if your goal is muscular, forexample, then you might want to
either have like the bed or thebig panel, something that you
(31:26):
can stand up against.
If it's general wellness, again,those panels that go on the wall
could be cool.
But if it's something likebrain, you really do need to
have something that's pushed upagainst the head and it's kind
of a bit ergonomic because lightwill only go in a straight line.
So if you have something that'skind of flat and you see light
bouncing off of you, well, thatshould show you that it's not
(31:48):
going in because you can see itcoming off you.
You know, I see all thesepictures of people glowing red
saying, Oh, I'm getting my redlight therapy, and I'm like,
Well, I can see most of thelight coming off.
Um, so you do need to have itcontoured and round.
It's best to have something thatgoes pushed up against the body,
is my recommendation.
So whatever you get, make sureyou can curve it to the body and
(32:09):
actually press it up against thebody.
Um, the beds are good, but oftenyou have to go to the clinic.
And then you just need to beable to contact the manufacturer
and ask them, you know, whatwhat is the power output?
And again, this is where youhave to rely a little bit on
what the companies are sayingbecause there's no um there's
there's no absolute criteriathat it has to be a certain
(32:31):
wattage output, but most of thecompanies will kind of give that
information and then let youknow why they've done that.
So, for example, my device is um25 milliwatts per centimetre
squared, it's 30 joules percentimeter squared.
And if you look at all theresearch literature, it kind of
sits somewhere between low tomid-dose.
(32:52):
Um, and I do that deliberatelybecause I'm obviously targeting
the brain and we don't want tooverstimulate, so I stay in the
low to mid-dose range.
So most companies will kind ofbe able to tell you that.
But if you buy something offAmazon or something like this,
you've just really got no ideawhat you're getting.
If it's really old school, youknow, if you're buying something
that's meant to go on the backof a car or something, you could
(33:12):
be getting heavy metals off thembecause LEDs are not all made in
the same way.
So you do have to be cautious.
You know, you can't buy fairylights or strip lights or
something.
You do need to have the the LEDsthat are made to a certain ISO
standard.
If you're putting something onyour head, you need to be
especially cautious because youdon't want to overheat the head
too.
So you need to have LEDs whereyou've got some kind of um
(33:37):
heatsink so that you're notgenerating too much warmth.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
And of course, any device that's been registered
will have to meet thosecriteria.
You know, anything that's beenmade in a factory where you are
for human use or you're doing itfor a certain application, they
have standards that they have tomeet.
So really, some of these devicescan be expensive, you know, it
can be anything from like$500 tolike$3,000.
(34:04):
But what price do you put onyour health?
And if it's something you'regoing to use repeatedly,
sometimes these things are worththe investment.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Right.
And it makes more sense to buythe thing that's going to be
effective versus buying a devicethat isn't as expensive.
You use it a couple times, youdon't notice anything, and then
you it ends up in the back ofyour shelf and never to be used
again.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
Never to be used again, yeah.
I and I think it that's why wetry to do like webinars and
trainings and support groups andthings, so that you can get, you
know, one, it's community, whichis great for people if they are
struggling with something.
But two, yeah, you want to knowthat it's working and you want
to know the right protocols andyou want to have the science.
Because the more you get intothe, I don't know, I'm very
(34:48):
passionate about it, but I findit so interesting that you start
to want to know a bit more.
So it's good to be able to haveaccess to that information.
So if you're just buying adevice on Amazon, quite often
people don't use it because youjust don't know how to use it
properly.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
That is all really good, solidadvice for people.
Thank you for that.
Uh, you had mentioned something,and this might get a little
technical, but I do know kind ofwithin the red light device
world, there was some argumentback and forth over whether the
red light does actuallypenetrate the skull to reach
(35:22):
brain tissue.
And the I think some of theargument was over.
Well, the studies were done oncadavers, which then can't
translate to a living humanorganism.
So where like have we officiallyended up at a place where we can
say definitively, yes, uh, redlight does penetrate the skull,
it reaches the brain at certainwavelengths and uh certain power
(35:44):
outputs.
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
I think so.
I think we've conclusively shownthat.
I mean, yes, you can do it withcadavers very easily, and you
can kind of show it.
But I mean, you can even, youknow, measure the output, you
know, if you're putting a deviceup against your hand and
measuring it on the other side,you know, you that there are
devices where you can measurethat, and of course, there's
we're going through bone there.
But you can also do somethingcalled F NEARS, which is
(36:10):
functional near infrared, whereyou can shine the light and then
measure what's bouncing back andkind of see, you know, how far
the light can go.
So there's all kinds of thingsthat we can do where we really
do think that the light, notvery far, I'm not saying it's
going deep into the brain, butyou know, at least three
millimeters onto the surface ofthe cortex, you know, if you
have the light source pushed upand you have the right
(36:32):
wavelength.
Because you do need to have nearinfrared.
The red light is not going to gothrough.
But yeah, I think now we haveenough data from all different
kinds of modelling, uh, actualphysical experiments with
cadavers, looking at how lightbounces back and calculating
well the light that's comingback.
We have enough information toconclusively say yes, you can
(36:54):
get through the skull.
It's actually fairly transparentto these longer wavelengths
light.
And also we can, you know, wecan use something like
qualitative EEG and showdifferences before and after.
So something is definitelyhappening to the brain during
that intervention.
Uh, functional MRI, we also havethat data to show you shine
(37:15):
light onto the brain, the brainresponds directly,
instantaneously.
So something is happening tocause that.
Um, yeah, there is quite a lotof data now around that.
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
Fabulous.
Yeah.
And then tell me a little bitabout the difference between LED
versus laser, because I knowlaser is the wavelength is
cohesive.
All the photons are movingtogether and LED is scattered.
And so some people were saying,you know, this is this is why
laser is more superior.
(37:47):
So where is the research on allof that argument?
SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Yeah, so yes, you're right.
The the initial use of lighttherapy was laser, uh, because
really we didn't have thetechnology until the mid-80s for
for making these LEDs that wecould kind of use in a medical
setting.
So you're right, laser is acoherent beam of light.
Um, so all of the light wavesare going in in phase in the
(38:12):
same direction, so you can get avery clear point light source.
LEDs are non-coherent, so it'sscattered.
So, we like I say, a lot of thedata does show we do see an
effect on the brain using LEDs.
So something is happening.
Um, also, if you can imaginescattered light, you have these
interference patterns.
(38:33):
Some people say that could evenbe better.
You have a bigger surface areaand potentially you're covering
more of the brain, whereaslasers tend to be pinpoint.
I think I think both work.
My my rationale for using LED isjust that it's safer.
I mean, because you have thesecoherent light beams, there is
potential you wouldn't want toget it in your eyes or
(38:53):
something.
So you have to be very careful.
It's not something you wouldjust want to have lying around
the house if you had kids orsomething, you know, if you had
it in in the eyes.
So LED is very, very safecompared to laser.
Right.
Um, and potentially it could bemore effective or at least as
effective as laser therapy.
And so that's why, you know, ifyou go, it used to be um
(39:16):
low-level laser therapy or umcold laser therapy was the
terminology we use.
We've changed it tophotobiomodulation now to
encompass both kinds becausealmost all professionals now
recognize LED and laser as agood way to deliver light.
Different.
It could potentially bedifferent, and I don't think we
entirely know what thedifference is to the body of um
(39:39):
coherent versus non-coherentlight.
There are there are potentialdifferences.
The research is not there tosay, you know, how we should
apply those different lightsources as yet.
Not that I've read.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Yeah, well, and the I'm assuming the the sun is not
uh coherent.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
No, no, the sun's not laser beaming us, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
And we're still getting benefit from uh the
sunlight.
Yes, that's right, yeah, forsure.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, the sun is not the deathray.
unknown (40:12):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
Yeah, exactly.
If you want to, you know, wewant to mimic nature as much as
we can.
Well, certainly I do in thesetechnologies, because I think,
you know, really nature, naturecure is is the best medicine as
much as we can stick to it.
We have, you know, but we justhave to utilize what we can in
this modern society.
You know, we can't go back tothat.
So we just need to kind of havethat in mind.
(40:36):
How can we be more like nature,but then bring this technology
into something we can use in ourmodern lives?
So, yeah, anything that mimics anatural process to me has got to
be better.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Excellent.
Well, where can people find uhyour device, your podcast, all
the things that you're up tothese days?
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
Yeah, so it's Sarah Thrive, it's C-E-R-A, uh, like
the brain, like Sarah Bellum,cerebral, C-E-R-A-Thrive.com.
And then all the socials are thesame.
And people can get to me throughany of these channels.
I do answer all of the uhquestions and socials myself, or
it's Sarah with an H, S-A-R-A-Hat Sarah Thrive.com, if people
(41:16):
want to get me directly.
Uh, and Rebel Scientists is thepodcast name.
So that's a bi-weekly podcast.
We also put out on actually onthe Sarah Thrive page, on
Amazon, on Spreaker, on Apple,however people find their pods.
SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
And I know that podcast, anothergreat resource for people.
SPEAKER_00 (41:36):
Yeah, we try and talk about things.
I kind of always try and bringit into a light slant.
It doesn't always work.
But you know, things like stemcells, you know, stem cell
migration and proliferation uhis influenced by light, you
know.
So this is an interesting thing.
Diet, you know, we eat a lot ofof foods that actually resonate
with light.
Our foods contain biophotons,we're emitting light.
(41:58):
You know, all of these thingsare related, so it's just my aim
is to try and uh get people asexcited about light as I am,
really.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
Yeah, and now isn't there some research too to say
that we have photoreceptors inmore places in our brain or our
body than just our eyeballs?
SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
Oh, we're covered in photoreceptors.
Really, if you think about umour biology, anything that kind
of has that uh ring structure,which is almost all organic
molecules in our body, willvibrate to some extent with
water, uh with light.
And water, which makes up mostof our bodies, 70% of our bodies
and our brains, also is a biglight receiver.
(42:37):
Um, anything in that long uhwavelength, our bodies are the
water in our bodies also respondto that light.
So we are really literallyvibrating with light all the
time.
You know, our mitochondriavibrating, our bacteria, the
water, you know, almosteverything.
The receivers in our eyes arejust one very small part of it.
(42:58):
You know, that they're veryspecialist receptors that help
us know the time of day.
But it's just one tiny part ofour body that's oscillating with
light.
Actually, you know, almost ourwhole bodies are in tune with
our light environment.
Yeah, amazing.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
So much that we still need to learn and
understand about how our bodiesoperate, right?
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
That's right.
Yes, that's right.
I think it's yeah, we'recontinually evolving and uh as
we get more sophisticated in thetech, you know, really we've
only just had these likephotomultipliers where we can
look at light that's coming offthe body.
You know, really we're only at astage now where we can assess
that in any real term.
You know, again, it's it'samazing.
We're emitting light, and youknow, what is that doing?
(43:42):
And, you know, is thatcommunication?
We really don't know yet.
So there is a lot more todiscover.
SPEAKER_01 (43:47):
Yeah.
My mentor, Dr.
Carrick, had published a studywhere he was using an infrared
ceramic blanket and testingwound healing on um mice and
kind of like a diabetic woundwound healing model.
And so that's also what theywere finding was that when you
use the far infrared, that itwas actually causing the stem
(44:09):
cells to adhere to the the areathat actually needed the
healing.
So I do find that researchreally interesting, this concept
that you can usephotobiomodulation to actually
encourage stem cells to beattracted to the area that needs
to heal.
SPEAKER_00 (44:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just amazing all thedifferent things that light is
doing in our bodies for sure.
And uh yeah, that there are someamazing technologies and things
out there.
Like I say, I do think it is ascience that's kind of almost
coming into its time now as westart to get more sophisticated
ways to measure it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:45):
Well, thank you for creating a device that people
can trust to actually behelpful, beneficial on the body,
the mitochondria, the gut brainaccess.
I love it.
Uh, so I'll put all of thatinformation into the show notes.
And is there anything else thatyou have going on or any other
um places you would like todirect people to?
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Um, I do do a bi-weekly webinar.
So I would invite anybody whowants to attend that is free to
attend.
And we do a different topicevery two weeks.
So um more than happy for peopleto jump on that anytime, also.
Amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
Cool.
I'll add that in the show notesas well.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show and sharing all of your
background, your hard work, andall the research and
understanding on what could bekind of a confusing and complex
topic.
SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
Thank you.
Yes, thank you so much.
It was just such a pleasure totalk to you, really.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Medical disclaimer.
This video or podcast is forgeneral informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine or other
professional healthcareservices, including the giving
of medical advice.
No doctor-patient relationshipis formed.
The use of this information andmaterials included is at the
(46:05):
user's own risk.
The content of this video orpodcast is not intended to be a
substitute for medical advice,diagnosis, or treatment, and
consumers of this informationshould seek the advice of a
medical professional for any andall health related issues.
A link to our full medicaldisclaimer is available in the
notes.
We're looking at how light interacts with our
(00:03):
microbiome.
And you know, the microbiome issuch an interesting and cool
topic when you think actuallywe're we're more bacterial cells
than human cells.
SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Welcome to Life After Impact, the Concussion
Recovery Podcast.
I'm Dr.
Ayla Wolf, and I will be hostingtoday's episode where we help
you navigate the oftenconfusing, frustrating, and
overwhelming journey ofconcussion and brain injury
recovery.
This podcast is your go-toresource for actionable
information, whether you'redealing with a recent
(00:35):
concussion, struggling withpost-concussion syndrome, or
just feeling stuck in yourhealing process.
In each episode, we dive deepinto the symptoms, testing,
treatments, and neurologicalinsights that can help you move
forward with clarity andconfidence.
We bring you leading experts inthe world of brain health,
functional neurology, andrehabilitation to share their
(00:57):
wisdom and strategies.
So if you're feeling lost,hopeless, or like no one
understands what you're goingthrough, know that you are not
alone.
This podcast can be your guideand partner in recovery, helping
you build a better life afterimpact.
Sarah Turner, welcome to LifeAfter Impact.
(01:17):
It's so great to see you againand to be able to uh catch up.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
Yeah, a lot has happened since I talked to you
quite a while ago.
You have your own podcast, TheRebel Scientist.
You started a company calledSarah Thrive, which has a really
unique red light therapy devicethat targets the gut brain axis.
And so I'm really excited tolearn more about uh your journey
with creating that device.
(01:45):
And I know you're involved in alot of red light therapy
research.
So why don't you start out bygiving us a little bit about
your scientific background andthen what got you into this
whole field?
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Yes, I had a bit of a um a random walk into this uh
this kind of field, if you like,because I started out really in
fairly orthodox science.
I started off inpharmaceuticals, uh mainly
working for um GSK.
Uh, and at the time I waslooking at drug delivery
devices.
So still in the devices, but atthe time I was looking at how do
(02:20):
you deliver drugs to people,most notably um asthma drugs.
Uh, and it was during that timethat I did a lot of experiments
with the company about um whatyou need to do in order to get
good drug deposition into thebody.
Of course, I was using a fakelung, you know, I was kind of on
the benches, I wasn't inclinical.
(02:41):
Um, but things like groundinghave a big effect.
So whether you're kind ofgrounded while you're delivering
these uh drugs to people has amassive effect on deposition,
certainly as shown in one ofthese kind of uh simulated
lungs.
And really, what that led me toconclude is really it's about
the state of the person, not somuch, you know, the the
(03:02):
intervention that you're tryingto do.
Um and actually I left uh thedrug industry shortly after that
because I began to see thatreally it's it's about how we
look after the individual, youknow, your environment, the
state of your own health, morethan kind of trying to
administer um a drug that haspotential side effects long
(03:22):
term.
So I kind of stepped out ofpharmaceutical and I went into
nutrition because I thought,okay, maybe we can prime the
body with nutrition.
Uh, but that doesn't really gofar enough.
I ended up doing um a master'sin uh clinical neuroscience.
Um, and then I started to lookvery closely at light and how
light interacts with biology.
(03:43):
And the interesting thing was inall of the qualifications, in
all the education, and in allthat industrial experience,
nobody had ever told me abouthow light interacts with
biology.
And it seems like it's uh ascience which is only now
beginning to kind of um gathersome traction, although really
it's has a very old history, youknow.
(04:04):
Um, Niles Vinson won the NobelPrize from it, you know, a
couple of hundred years ago.
So uh we're just now beginningto see the fruits of all the
research intophotobiomodulation.
So because I have clinicalneuroscience, that's why I'm
applying it to the brain.
But of course, light therapy isused in a lot of uh different
applications.
SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
Yeah, one of my favorite research papers that
really talks about the gut brainaxis defines it as the gut
microbiota gut brain axis,because obviously when we're
interacting with the gut, we'realso interacting with trillions
of bacteria and other life formsthat are in our gut and making
things happen as far asdigesting our food and turning
(04:45):
that into neurotransmitters.
And so, um, have you also kindof uh specifically studied
what's happening when we shinelight on all these gut microbes?
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Yeah, uh that is a fascinating topic.
And I think again, it's gonnabecome a new science.
Already there's been a paperpublished, which you'll love if
you like this topic, calledPhotobiomics.
Uh, and it was coined by Dr.
Ann Liebert and her team inAustralia, but that that's doing
exactly that.
We're looking at how lightinteracts with our microbiome.
(05:18):
And and you know, the microbiomeis such an interesting and cool
topic when you think actuallywe're we're more bacterial cells
than human cells.
You know, we really are acommunity of species.
We kind of walk around like, youknow, thinking that we're kind
of this, you know, I'm Sarah,I'm doing this and that.
But you know, actually, we are acolony of uh bacteria, viruses,
(05:42):
microbes, you know, all kinds ofthings.
So taking care of that part ofour being is hugely important.
Um perhaps we'll talk a littlebit about how red light therapy
works, but it mainly works bytargeting the mitochondria,
which are tiny organelles insideour cells.
These are very similar actuallyto bacteria.
And in fact, probably from anancestral point of view, you
(06:04):
know, these mitochondria or howwe make energy in our body is
probably a symbioticrelationship, you know, many,
you know, millions of years agowhen we had multicellular
organisms.
So it should be no surprise tous that bacteria are responding
to light, that we can target ourbacteria with light and that we
have this effect.
So you're totally right.
(06:24):
How having this microbiome gutbrain axis is hugely important.
It's it's again, it's one ofthese topics that's gaining
traction.
And I'm interested to see howred light therapy in particular
can target both our human cellsand our bacterial cells to have
that beneficial effect.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
When we shine red light, there Iwas there's a lot of devices on
the market.
Yours has very specificwavelengths.
Do you want to talk?
I mean, a little bit, not gettoo sciencey or technical, but
do you want to talk a little bitabout the difference between red
light, near infrared, thedifferent wavelengths, and why
that's important?
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
Yeah, I'll I'll kind of keep it top level because I
think the thing that most peopleneed to understand is this kind
of uh wavelength of light.
And when we say wavelength,we're referring to the colour.
The colour defines thewavelength.
So red light um has a specificwavelength range, and the near
infrared light is just a littlebit longer range.
It's outside of our visiblespectrum, so we call it
(07:26):
infrared.
But we're talking about, if youthink about the rainbow of
colours, we're talking about thelonger wavelengths of light.
And because of the angle of thesun at different times of day,
we see a lot of this red lightat sunrise and sunset.
That's why we get thesefabulous, you know, beautiful
orangey, red, e-pink sunrisesand sunsets.
(07:48):
Because of the way the sun isangled at that time of day,
that's when we get this light.
And our bodies are very in tunewith this light because really,
up until 200 years ago, ashumans, we would be outside most
of the day, you know.
Most of our evolutionary historywould be living actually
outside.
You know, we we only haverelatively recently lived this
(08:08):
indoor lifestyle.
So our bodies are very muchdesigned to do certain things at
different times of day.
And when we see that red light,the red and near infrared at
sunrise, it sets off a wholecascade of reactions in our
bodies.
It also kind of prepares us forthe day, and then in the evening
it prepares us for sleep andregeneration.
So as a species now, we're verydeficient in this longer
(08:31):
wavelength light, the light wewould see at sunrise and sun.
So it is present at the rest ofthe time, but that's when we
would kind of see the most of itin comparison to the other
wavelengths.
So I think, you know, for forpeople who don't want to get too
much into the science, what wereally need to know is we we are
animals that have really evolvedoutside.
We really do need to see thatred light, which we see at
(08:54):
sunrise and sunset.
If we don't, and almost all ofus don't now, we become
deficient.
It's almost like a vitamindeficiency.
You know, if you're deficient init, you need to put it back.
And so, really, that's what thisred light technology is doing.
It's not doing anything alien tothe body, it's just putting back
those wavelengths of light thatwe've kind of removed from our
(09:14):
lives by living in houses andhaving blue screens and doing
all the things that we do now.
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
Yeah, I love that you just boil it down to that
level of simplicity.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Yes.
Because you can't, you know,there's so much to the science.
But really, if we're kind ofthinking about why would red
light have this effect, that'swhy, you know, we we are still,
although we're very umsophisticated in our technology
at the moment, you know, thiskind of time, this era of
civilization, we're still livingvery basic bodies.
You know, our bodies are stillthose bodies that, you know,
(09:47):
have evolved 200,000 years ago.
We still have the same lightreceptors, we still have the
same little organelles producingenergy.
So we really need to think abouthow we can nurture that part of
our evolutionary selves.
If we can't be outside all thetime, we need to find a way to
replace that light that we'rejust not seeing.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And what makes your device thatyou created unique is that it
has both a kind of transcranialcomponent, a headband that you
wear, in addition to a panelthat you place on your abdomen
to actually get red light toboth places.
Um I love that.
So talk a little bit about kindof the interface of your device
(10:29):
and how that works.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
Yeah, maybe I'll demo it.
I don't know if you do video.
Yeah, yeah.
But I can talk you through itbecause sometimes, you know,
people see my device and theythink it's like a visor.
It looks a bit like Star Trek,you know, where you have the
device over your eyes.
But actually, it's very simple.
So what I'm showing you now isthe headband and it just has
clusters, and you can see thered there, and in between, you
(12:03):
know, those dots, that's nearinfrared, so it's just as
bright, it's just not visible tothe human eye.
So the main reason I've put redin there is one because we want
to get superficial, you know.
Most of these masks that peopleare used to for collagen in the
skin, they're red because it'ssuperficial, but you're still
getting through the skin.
And then the near infrared willactually go straight through the
(12:25):
skull and onto the surface ofthe brain.
That kind of trips on peopleout.
So there you just push it hereagainst the forehead.
So that's the frontal cortex.
A lot of projections end in thatarea, and there's no hair there
as a barrier.
So you can go straight throughonto that area, and then the
body panel, very, very simple.
(12:46):
You know, we don't need to kindof have really complicated tech.
This is just red, and you cansee the near infrared, and this
you can just place over theabdomen because actually the
abdomen is a really good sitefor getting light into the body,
you know, there's less barriers,you haven't got to go through
bone, it will go straightthrough, you know, five
centimetres deep.
In some people, that will gostraight through the gut.
(13:07):
In other people, depending onkind of visceral fat and things
like that, it might justpenetrate that.
But you create by healing thegut, you create a better
environment for the goodbacteria.
So whether or not you'redirectly getting to those
bacteria, or whether you're justcreating that environment by
sealing tight junctions in thegut.
For me, getting to the gut firstis an intrinsic part of having a
(13:31):
good brain.
It's very difficult to have agood brain if your gut's out of
whack or if you've gotmetabolites leaking into your
body and and uh inflammation,communication via the vagus
nerve.
Really, to have a good brain, wewe really want to heal that gut
first.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Love it.
Yeah.
And then do you uh run thatthrough a phone app?
Is that how it works?
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
Yes, I use an app.
Um and the reason I use an appis because as well as putting
the light onto the surface ofthe brain, we can also pulse the
light to different brainwavefrequencies.
So people may have heard ofthings like alpha and gamma
brainwave frequencies becausethe brain is oscillating and we
(14:17):
can detect that on the surfaceof the brain.
Uh, and so we give those uhthose numbers.
So, for example, what we'reattending to each other right
now, we're engaged in thislovely conversation.
So we're probably in a fairly uhconsistent gamma phase, which
means our brains are oscillatingaround about 40 times a second
because that's the attentivephase.
Some people find it difficult toget into these phases, maybe
(14:41):
because of um injury or diseaseor or just being tired or
whatever.
So we can almost show the brainthat 40 hertz frequency by
turning that light source offand on 40 times a second, and
then the brain responds by kindof upping its frequency.
So we can go up or down.
I have six different programsthat enable you to get into
(15:03):
different brainwave states.
So I do use an app for that, butthen on top of the device I have
a Bluetooth disable.
So for people who don't want tohave Bluetooth on their head,
and it's not a great idea, youknow, you don't really want to
have those things in your earseither.
It's best to turn any kind ofBluetooth off.
So you can set the uh program onyour phone, get the device
(15:24):
going, turn the Bluetooth off,and then you have um a program
that's more bespoke to whatyou're trying to do that day.
Awesome.
You've thought of everything.
unknown (15:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Do you know that the dev team are like, why would
they all kind of got their earpods in?
Why would you ever want to turnBluetooth off?
And I'm like, well, you know,some people are very sensitive,
and it is a good idea.
I mean, I know in the daytimewe're kind of all sitting in the
Wi-Fi, and you know, if you'reliving in a tower block, you
know, it's something you can'treally avoid.
But I think, you know, littlethings to reduce it as much as
(15:56):
possible.
If you're not using your phone,have it on airplane, turn the
Wi-Fi off at night.
We can do little things to tryand limit the exposure of these
kinds of um frequencies thatperhaps are not so healthy.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Uh I definitely turn my phoneinto airplane mode every night
before I go to bed.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
Yeah, I think it's a wise thing to do.
And so, I mean, you don't wantto get phone calls waking you up
anyway, and it's just a simplething to do.
And like I say, some of thesetechnologies, it's just about
okay, how can I just uh a littlebit turn down some of these
exposures that I'm getting?
You know, I don't think we needto get too caught up with it
because it is the world we livein, but little things, let's
(16:38):
just try and reduce thatexposure.
It's like your diet, isn't it?
Try not to eat processed food,you know, just try to cut down
all the junk as much as you can.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
Right.
The the 80-20 rule or maybe the90-10 rule if you're trying to
have a little more discipline.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
Yeah, excellent.
Thank you so much.
How long has this device been onthe market?
And have you heard a lot offeedback from people?
Like, what has the feedbackbeen?
SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
So the device has been on the market now.
We've just had our two-yearbirthday last weekend.
Oh, happy birthday.
The company's been going alittle bit longer because
actually there was a lot ofproduct development went into
the device.
So we had a we had a whole yearof product development before we
actually went into producing thedevice.
But we have had some excellentfeedback.
(17:24):
Um, we've had feedback frompeople with all kinds of
conditions that have gone fromwherever they're at to improved.
Um, so we now have a group ofpeople with um ALS, we have a
group of people with young onsetParkinson's.
And I do need to make the caveatthat I'm not saying that we're
in any way curing, treating,diagnosing, or preventing any of
(17:46):
these diseases, but just peoplehave seen they've gone from a
baseline of where they're at tobetter.
So better sleep, bettermovement, better memory, you
know, enhanced relationships,being able to be resilient and
deal with stressful situations.
So we're we do have quite a lotof groups now for different
things where people have reallystarted to see the effect.
(18:08):
I think healthy people also, youknow, that's another interesting
thing.
Healthy people also have seenlike more of a cognitive
enhancement effect.
And also, I was very amazed tohear how many people had
low-level gut issues that didn'teven realise.
Because a lot of people willcome to me and say, Oh, did I
tell you that I had kind of, youknow, bloating and all of that,
(18:31):
and I don't get it anymore?
And I thought, well, you didn'tmention it, and they're like,
Well, I just thought it wassomething I lived with.
You know, I think we're at thiscrazy place at the moment where
people are just living with allkinds of gut issues because it
seems normal.
Everybody's got it, so it'ssomething, you know, people are
very focused on what's going onwith their brain.
But a lot of the times the thegut is kind of the first, the
(18:53):
first indicator that's somethingwrong.
So any kind of gut issues, Ithink, should be nipped in the
bud.
And you and it's not normal tokind of have these things, you
know, it is something that is uhyou can do something about very
easily.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Yeah, I would agree.
I see a lot of gut dysfunctionas well.
And usually it's not it's notpeople's um main complaint.
It might not even be the topfive main complaints that they
walk in with, but it's so oftenpart of the clinical
presentation that that peopleare suffering from different gut
issues.
And like you said, many of themdo just kind of live with it and
think that this is normal andthis is just part of my life,
(19:30):
and don't necessarily realizethere are things that can be
done.
And uh, so I love that yourdevice it works on both ends,
the the gut and the brain.
And I've been listening to someinteresting uh information on
the use of bitters, too, andjust how important all the
different bitters are in ourdiet and how many of them are
removed because many peopledon't like the bitter flavor of
(19:54):
things.
And so uh hundreds of years ago,even our grains had more of a
bitter taste to them, and we'vesince kind of like genetically
modified that out.
And so, even with like whatwe're eating every day, we're
not getting those bitters thatstimulate digestion before we
even put food in our mouth or assoon as we do.
So it's like we have to approachthis gut issue from so many
(20:16):
different angles, you know, frommaking sure the brain is
healthy, making sure we havebitters in our diet, getting red
light in our bodies, all thethings.
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
All the things, and you're right.
It's just I think we've movedtowards this kind of comfort,
you know, we've kind of movedtowards a very comfortable
lifestyle and things, you know,extreme cold, well not even
extreme, but just uncomfortablecold, uncomfortable heat, like
you say, bitter, you know, allof these things are are things
that uh are like a home uhhometic stress, you know, a
(20:50):
little bit of hormesis.
A little bit of stress on thebody is good because the body
bounces back from that.
And I think, you know, if wekind of coast along too in too
comfortable a lane, there'sabsolutely no pressure on the
body to develop any kind ofresistance, and it's all very
well and good until somethinghappens, and then you haven't
got the resistance to deal withit.
So I I agree with you.
(21:11):
I think trying to bring in someof these things which are maybe
a little bit uncomfortable, youknow.
I do hot yoga, I I know I've gotfriends who do kind of the cold
showers, you know, that's reallywhat we need to do to kind of
give our body that thatrobustness that we need.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Exactly.
I mean, where I live, it getspretty cold in the winter time.
And so for me, as fall uh sinksin, I usually try to sleep with
my window open and actually getmy body used to sleeping in much
colder temperatures so that whenit then is below freezing, you
know, my hypothalamus has kindof had a chance to be like,
okay, I'm I've I've been youknow worked into this.
(21:50):
It wasn't just that I went froma 70 degree temperature
controlled house to now it'snegative 10 outside.
And so yeah, for me, I even Idon't love cold plunges, but I
do definitely get a lot of coldexposure just by nature of where
I live and kind of trying to getthat cold air into my bedroom at
nighttime as long as possiblebefore it gets a little, you
(22:12):
know, I don't want my house tobe 30 degrees when I wake up,
but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
No, I get it.
And that there's very easy waysto do some of these things, like
you know, the ext, you know, yousee these extreme buyer hackers
sitting in these tubs of ice andthings.
But you're right, just having anopen window or kind of, you
know, on a frosty morning inEngland, standing outside
without your shoes and socks onjust for 10 minutes, you know,
it's not something that has tobe, you know, you know, you have
to total the brave out or buylike a you know a 12 grand i've
(22:39):
to no, you just have to kind ofput your body in these
uncomfortable things or or justbe sensible.
You like light is so important.
Could you put your desk next toa window?
Could you open the window?
Could you do some of yourmeetings outside?
You know, I think some of thesethings are much easier than
people think.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.
I know the recommendation is totry to get outside first thing
in the morning for that morningsunlight.
And luckily for me, I have a dogthat wants to go outside first
thing when he wakes up.
So uh I can go and I can throwthe ball to him first thing in
the morning and get my morningsunlight.
So he's kind of my um, I I don'tknow, I probably wouldn't just
(23:17):
go outside and walk and juststand there for 15 minutes and
do nothing.
I like to be doing things allthe time.
So he uh he's my excuse for mymorning sunlight.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
Yeah, whatever works for you.
I like to sometimes just go andstand there and kind of just try
and see that sun coming up, orif I'm in a place where I need
to walk to the sunrise, all thebetter.
But it is so crucial and it is asimple thing.
And if you miss out, it youreally are like trying to get
through the day with one handtied behind your back because
(23:47):
your body hasn't done the thingsthat it needs to do.
I mean, people talk aboutmelatonin as the hormone of
darkness, but you actually makeit in the morning in response to
seeing that morning sun.
You know, cortisol levels,female hormones, male hormones,
all these things are set.
Even how your skin is sulfatedto deal with UV light in the
middle of the day, you know,people just uh really maybe
(24:10):
don't prioritize that.
I mean, that's what you know,red light devices are great for
putting it back.
So I always say number one, getoutside as much as you can, see
the sunrise.
Number two, have a backup plan,have your red light therapy
device because if you've missedit or you know, you're you're
rushing around, you can veryeasily put that back.
(24:30):
But if you consistently miss it,then then you know you're
running your body without doingthe things that the body needs
to do to really, you know, beready for the day.
You know, it's kind of likenever ever servicing your car,
just running and running andrunning it.
You know, things are gonna wearout.
SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
Yeah.
So I have a question.
Obviously, where I live, it'sdark, you know, we don't get the
sun very high in the sky fromSeptember to May.
And so many people do sufferfrom seasonal affective
disorder.
And I think a lot of peopledon't even recognize that
they're suffering from seasonalaffective disorder.
They just are feeling moretired, more lethargic, a little,
(25:07):
maybe not like full-ondepression, but a little more
down, not quite as motivated togo out and do things when it's
dark by 5 p.m.
And so usually, you know, when Iwas growing up, I always would
see that people would have thesesunboxes with certain
wavelengths of light.
But are you also seeing, or doyou find that the red
wavelengths of light are alsotherapeutic for kind of
(25:30):
offsetting that seasonalaffective disorder that people
deal with in the winter?
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah, I mean, seasonal affective disorder is
usually because people aremissing out on all the
wavelengths of light, becausethe light contains such a broad
spectrum of the frequencies.
So a lot of the light boxes thatyou mentioned are broad
spectrum, they're not just theum red and the near infrared.
Because although we talk a lotabout blue light uh toxicity,
(25:56):
you know, you need a certainamount for dopamine levels at
the right times of day, youknow.
So if you're if you're in a verydark place, you know, you're not
getting exposed to any of thewavelengths.
But certainly the near the redand the near infrared light, the
that seems to activate thebody's healing mechanisms,
probably because that's when wesee it, sunrise and sunset.
(26:17):
So you're setting your healingmechanisms up, you know, to
prepare yourself for anyinjuries you might get in the
day.
And then at evening, you're kindof doing all kinds of things to
heal the body as you sleep.
So things things like you know,anxiety and depression and mood
are very closely linked to that.
So we do find for a lot ofpeople it is a mood lifter, red
(26:38):
light therapy.
I mean, like I say, if youreally have full-on seasonal
effective and you're becauseyou're in a very dark
environment, I would recommendone of the full spectrum ones as
well, actually.
You know, get both.
Sure.
I have a lovely friend calledGuti who's got a company called
Mytolux, and he makes one thatactually puts out the the UV as
well, so you can your body canproduce vitamin D because that's
(26:59):
something that you don't do inthese kind of very northern
places.
But from a perspective ofimproving mood, certainly these
red light therapy devices haveshown consistently to elevate
mood.
So if if you're kind of, youknow, you're able to get
outside, but you're stillfeeling a little bit down, I I
would say to try the red light,because the red light will
(27:21):
charge your mitochondria, giveyour body a lot more energy too.
Sometimes, you know, what we'refeeling is just a depletion of
energy, just as simple as that.
So if your mitochondria canproduce more energy in the form
of ATP, which is this moleculethat the body uses for energy,
then I think everything worksbetter, you know.
Everything works better, yourmood's better, you're elevated,
(27:43):
you can heal better.
So, yeah, it is a slightlydifferent topic having full-on
seasonal effective, then youneed the broad spectrum.
Um, but yeah, red light therapywill definitely help with mood.
Yeah.
Still still helps with that moodlift.
Awesome.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
And are you involved in any current clinical trials
or studies?
Or if there if there was a studyyou could do, what would it look
like?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
So I have a couple underway with my actual device.
So I have a study actually inNorth Africa with autistic
spectrum disorder, uh, which isobviously a childhood
developmental disorder.
So looking at things like uhmood regulation, um, and that is
based on some previous researchthat's already been done that's
shown that red light therapycould potentially help with
(28:30):
that.
So we're supplying the devicesfor that study.
Also, as I've mentioned, um, ALSand Young Onset Parkinson's,
we're doing case documented casehistories uh in association with
Professor Paul Shazau at DurhamUniversity.
So it's not a clinical trial.
Uh, we won't be able to publishany kind of clinical data, but
(28:50):
we can publish documented casehistories that have been
properly reviewed with properdata collection.
So we're kind of doing ourlittle bit that we can do with
the limited funds that we havefor these trials because, as I'm
sure you'll know, full-onclinical trials are a massive
undertaking.
I'm hoping that we will be ableto raise some funds going
(29:10):
forward to do these big clinicaltrials.
But there are a lot of peoplewho are currently doing that
using very similar outputs andwavelengths to the one in Sarah
Thrive.
So that's another cool thingthat's going on, is we can keep
an eye on what's happening andthen prove equivalence to other
devices too.
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and I know you know you'vementioned Parkinson's and these
neurodegenerative diseases, andit does seem like the future of
neurodegenerative diseaseresearch really is on that
intersection betweenmitochondrial health and
inflammatory processes, and howdo we actually improve the
functioning and the health ofthe mitochondria and what are
(29:48):
the downstream uh effects ofthat in terms of does that kind
of mitigate inflammation andneuroinflammation?
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yeah, for sure.
It's it's a very interesting uhuh field of study that's gaining
a lot of traction right now.
Let's say in the US, a lot ofresearch is being conducted with
the Veterans Association lookingat things like, well,
neurodegeneration, but also umTBI and PTSD.
Um and yes, uh even at Harvard,uh Professor uh Paolo Cassano is
(30:18):
looking at psychiatricconditions.
So we're kind of I'm I feel likewe're almost on the crest of the
wave where we're going to startto see some of those medical
approvals, then of course thatwill open the door for a lot of
things to happen.
Because at the moment, we justneed to build the clinical
evidence to a point where it'saccepted by the regulatory
authorities.
We're not quite there yet, but Ican see it.
(30:39):
I can see it happening verysoon.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Yeah, amazing.
And then what kind of advice doyou have for people who?
I mean, I've had patients thathave said to me, Oh, I went and
I bought like a$40 red lightdevice at uh the store down the
street.
So, how like what would you sayto people in terms of like when
they're looking for a device,what are the things that they
need to be looking for sothey're not wasting their money
(31:02):
on things that are ineffective?
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Yeah, every this is a very common question because
it's very difficult to know.
Uh What you need.
I think the first thing is whatis your goal?
Because most of the devices aredesigned for a specific goal.
So if your goal is muscular, forexample, then you might want to
either have like the bed or thebig panel, something that you
(31:26):
can stand up against.
If it's general wellness, again,those panels that go on the wall
could be cool.
But if it's something likebrain, you really do need to
have something that's pushed upagainst the head and it's kind
of a bit ergonomic because lightwill only go in a straight line.
So if you have something that'skind of flat and you see light
bouncing off of you, well, thatshould show you that it's not
(31:48):
going in because you can see itcoming off you.
You know, I see all thesepictures of people glowing red
saying, Oh, I'm getting my redlight therapy, and I'm like,
Well, I can see most of thelight coming off.
Um, so you do need to have itcontoured and round.
It's best to have something thatgoes pushed up against the body,
is my recommendation.
So whatever you get, make sureyou can curve it to the body and
(32:09):
actually press it up against thebody.
Um, the beds are good, but oftenyou have to go to the clinic.
And then you just need to beable to contact the manufacturer
and ask them, you know, whatwhat is the power output?
And again, this is where youhave to rely a little bit on
what the companies are sayingbecause there's no um there's
there's no absolute criteriathat it has to be a certain
(32:31):
wattage output, but most of thecompanies will kind of give that
information and then let youknow why they've done that.
So, for example, my device is um25 milliwatts per centimetre
squared, it's 30 joules percentimeter squared.
And if you look at all theresearch literature, it kind of
sits somewhere between low tomid-dose.
(32:52):
Um, and I do that deliberatelybecause I'm obviously targeting
the brain and we don't want tooverstimulate, so I stay in the
low to mid-dose range.
So most companies will kind ofbe able to tell you that.
But if you buy something offAmazon or something like this,
you've just really got no ideawhat you're getting.
If it's really old school, youknow, if you're buying something
that's meant to go on the backof a car or something, you could
(33:12):
be getting heavy metals off thembecause LEDs are not all made in
the same way.
So you do have to be cautious.
You know, you can't buy fairylights or strip lights or
something.
You do need to have the the LEDsthat are made to a certain ISO
standard.
If you're putting something onyour head, you need to be
especially cautious because youdon't want to overheat the head
too.
So you need to have LEDs whereyou've got some kind of um
(33:37):
heatsink so that you're notgenerating too much warmth.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
And of course, any device that's been registered
will have to meet thosecriteria.
You know, anything that's beenmade in a factory where you are
for human use or you're doing itfor a certain application, they
have standards that they have tomeet.
So really, some of these devicescan be expensive, you know, it
can be anything from like$500 tolike$3,000.
(34:04):
But what price do you put onyour health?
And if it's something you'regoing to use repeatedly,
sometimes these things are worththe investment.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Right.
And it makes more sense to buythe thing that's going to be
effective versus buying a devicethat isn't as expensive.
You use it a couple times, youdon't notice anything, and then
you it ends up in the back ofyour shelf and never to be used
again.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
Never to be used again, yeah.
I and I think it that's why wetry to do like webinars and
trainings and support groups andthings, so that you can get, you
know, one, it's community, whichis great for people if they are
struggling with something.
But two, yeah, you want to knowthat it's working and you want
to know the right protocols andyou want to have the science.
Because the more you get intothe, I don't know, I'm very
(34:48):
passionate about it, but I findit so interesting that you start
to want to know a bit more.
So it's good to be able to haveaccess to that information.
So if you're just buying adevice on Amazon, quite often
people don't use it because youjust don't know how to use it
properly.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
That is all really good, solidadvice for people.
Thank you for that.
Uh, you had mentioned something,and this might get a little
technical, but I do know kind ofwithin the red light device
world, there was some argumentback and forth over whether the
red light does actuallypenetrate the skull to reach
(35:22):
brain tissue.
And the I think some of theargument was over.
Well, the studies were done oncadavers, which then can't
translate to a living humanorganism.
So where like have we officiallyended up at a place where we can
say definitively, yes, uh, redlight does penetrate the skull,
it reaches the brain at certainwavelengths and uh certain power
(35:44):
outputs.
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
I think so.
I think we've conclusively shownthat.
I mean, yes, you can do it withcadavers very easily, and you
can kind of show it.
But I mean, you can even, youknow, measure the output, you
know, if you're putting a deviceup against your hand and
measuring it on the other side,you know, you that there are
devices where you can measurethat, and of course, there's
we're going through bone there.
But you can also do somethingcalled F NEARS, which is
(36:10):
functional near infrared, whereyou can shine the light and then
measure what's bouncing back andkind of see, you know, how far
the light can go.
So there's all kinds of thingsthat we can do where we really
do think that the light, notvery far, I'm not saying it's
going deep into the brain, butyou know, at least three
millimeters onto the surface ofthe cortex, you know, if you
have the light source pushed upand you have the right
(36:32):
wavelength.
Because you do need to have nearinfrared.
The red light is not going to gothrough.
But yeah, I think now we haveenough data from all different
kinds of modelling, uh, actualphysical experiments with
cadavers, looking at how lightbounces back and calculating
well the light that's comingback.
We have enough information toconclusively say yes, you can
(36:54):
get through the skull.
It's actually fairly transparentto these longer wavelengths
light.
And also we can, you know, wecan use something like
qualitative EEG and showdifferences before and after.
So something is definitelyhappening to the brain during
that intervention.
Uh, functional MRI, we also havethat data to show you shine
(37:15):
light onto the brain, the brainresponds directly,
instantaneously.
So something is happening tocause that.
Um, yeah, there is quite a lotof data now around that.
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
Fabulous.
Yeah.
And then tell me a little bitabout the difference between LED
versus laser, because I knowlaser is the wavelength is
cohesive.
All the photons are movingtogether and LED is scattered.
And so some people were saying,you know, this is this is why
laser is more superior.
(37:47):
So where is the research on allof that argument?
SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Yeah, so yes, you're right.
The the initial use of lighttherapy was laser, uh, because
really we didn't have thetechnology until the mid-80s for
for making these LEDs that wecould kind of use in a medical
setting.
So you're right, laser is acoherent beam of light.
Um, so all of the light wavesare going in in phase in the
(38:12):
same direction, so you can get avery clear point light source.
LEDs are non-coherent, so it'sscattered.
So, we like I say, a lot of thedata does show we do see an
effect on the brain using LEDs.
So something is happening.
Um, also, if you can imaginescattered light, you have these
interference patterns.
(38:33):
Some people say that could evenbe better.
You have a bigger surface areaand potentially you're covering
more of the brain, whereaslasers tend to be pinpoint.
I think I think both work.
My my rationale for using LED isjust that it's safer.
I mean, because you have thesecoherent light beams, there is
potential you wouldn't want toget it in your eyes or
(38:53):
something.
So you have to be very careful.
It's not something you wouldjust want to have lying around
the house if you had kids orsomething, you know, if you had
it in in the eyes.
So LED is very, very safecompared to laser.
Right.
Um, and potentially it could bemore effective or at least as
effective as laser therapy.
And so that's why, you know, ifyou go, it used to be um
(39:16):
low-level laser therapy or umcold laser therapy was the
terminology we use.
We've changed it tophotobiomodulation now to
encompass both kinds becausealmost all professionals now
recognize LED and laser as agood way to deliver light.
Different.
It could potentially bedifferent, and I don't think we
entirely know what thedifference is to the body of um
(39:39):
coherent versus non-coherentlight.
There are there are potentialdifferences.
The research is not there tosay, you know, how we should
apply those different lightsources as yet.
Not that I've read.
SPEAKER_01 (39:52):
Yeah, well, and the I'm assuming the the sun is not
uh coherent.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
No, no, the sun's not laser beaming us, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:02):
And we're still getting benefit from uh the
sunlight.
Yes, that's right, yeah, forsure.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, the sun is not the deathray.
unknown (40:12):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
Yeah, exactly.
If you want to, you know, wewant to mimic nature as much as
we can.
Well, certainly I do in thesetechnologies, because I think,
you know, really nature, naturecure is is the best medicine as
much as we can stick to it.
We have, you know, but we justhave to utilize what we can in
this modern society.
You know, we can't go back tothat.
So we just need to kind of havethat in mind.
(40:36):
How can we be more like nature,but then bring this technology
into something we can use in ourmodern lives?
So, yeah, anything that mimics anatural process to me has got to
be better.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Excellent.
Well, where can people find uhyour device, your podcast, all
the things that you're up tothese days?
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
Yeah, so it's Sarah Thrive, it's C-E-R-A, uh, like
the brain, like Sarah Bellum,cerebral, C-E-R-A-Thrive.com.
And then all the socials are thesame.
And people can get to me throughany of these channels.
I do answer all of the uhquestions and socials myself, or
it's Sarah with an H, S-A-R-A-Hat Sarah Thrive.com, if people
(41:16):
want to get me directly.
Uh, and Rebel Scientists is thepodcast name.
So that's a bi-weekly podcast.
We also put out on actually onthe Sarah Thrive page, on
Amazon, on Spreaker, on Apple,however people find their pods.
SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
And I know that podcast, anothergreat resource for people.
SPEAKER_00 (41:36):
Yeah, we try and talk about things.
I kind of always try and bringit into a light slant.
It doesn't always work.
But you know, things like stemcells, you know, stem cell
migration and proliferation uhis influenced by light, you
know.
So this is an interesting thing.
Diet, you know, we eat a lot ofof foods that actually resonate
with light.
Our foods contain biophotons,we're emitting light.
(41:58):
You know, all of these thingsare related, so it's just my aim
is to try and uh get people asexcited about light as I am,
really.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
Yeah, and now isn't there some research too to say
that we have photoreceptors inmore places in our brain or our
body than just our eyeballs?
SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
Oh, we're covered in photoreceptors.
Really, if you think about umour biology, anything that kind
of has that uh ring structure,which is almost all organic
molecules in our body, willvibrate to some extent with
water, uh with light.
And water, which makes up mostof our bodies, 70% of our bodies
and our brains, also is a biglight receiver.
(42:37):
Um, anything in that long uhwavelength, our bodies are the
water in our bodies also respondto that light.
So we are really literallyvibrating with light all the
time.
You know, our mitochondriavibrating, our bacteria, the
water, you know, almosteverything.
The receivers in our eyes arejust one very small part of it.
(42:58):
You know, that they're veryspecialist receptors that help
us know the time of day.
But it's just one tiny part ofour body that's oscillating with
light.
Actually, you know, almost ourwhole bodies are in tune with
our light environment.
Yeah, amazing.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
So much that we still need to learn and
understand about how our bodiesoperate, right?
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
That's right.
Yes, that's right.
I think it's yeah, we'recontinually evolving and uh as
we get more sophisticated in thetech, you know, really we've
only just had these likephotomultipliers where we can
look at light that's coming offthe body.
You know, really we're only at astage now where we can assess
that in any real term.
You know, again, it's it'samazing.
We're emitting light, and youknow, what is that doing?
(43:42):
And, you know, is thatcommunication?
We really don't know yet.
So there is a lot more todiscover.
SPEAKER_01 (43:47):
Yeah.
My mentor, Dr.
Carrick, had published a studywhere he was using an infrared
ceramic blanket and testingwound healing on um mice and
kind of like a diabetic woundwound healing model.
And so that's also what theywere finding was that when you
use the far infrared, that itwas actually causing the stem
(44:09):
cells to adhere to the the areathat actually needed the
healing.
So I do find that researchreally interesting, this concept
that you can usephotobiomodulation to actually
encourage stem cells to beattracted to the area that needs
to heal.
SPEAKER_00 (44:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just amazing all thedifferent things that light is
doing in our bodies for sure.
And uh yeah, that there are someamazing technologies and things
out there.
Like I say, I do think it is ascience that's kind of almost
coming into its time now as westart to get more sophisticated
ways to measure it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:45):
Well, thank you for creating a device that people
can trust to actually behelpful, beneficial on the body,
the mitochondria, the gut brainaccess.
I love it.
Uh, so I'll put all of thatinformation into the show notes.
And is there anything else thatyou have going on or any other
um places you would like todirect people to?
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Um, I do do a bi-weekly webinar.
So I would invite anybody whowants to attend that is free to
attend.
And we do a different topicevery two weeks.
So um more than happy for peopleto jump on that anytime, also.
Amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
Cool.
I'll add that in the show notesas well.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show and sharing all of your
background, your hard work, andall the research and
understanding on what could bekind of a confusing and complex
topic.
SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
Thank you.
Yes, thank you so much.
It was just such a pleasure totalk to you, really.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Medical disclaimer.
This video or podcast is forgeneral informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine or other
professional healthcareservices, including the giving
of medical advice.
No doctor-patient relationshipis formed.
The use of this information andmaterials included is at the
(46:05):
user's own risk.
The content of this video orpodcast is not intended to be a
substitute for medical advice,diagnosis, or treatment, and
consumers of this informationshould seek the advice of a
medical professional for any andall health related issues.
A link to our full medicaldisclaimer is available in the
notes.
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