October 13, 2025 • 54 mins
What if the fastest path to fewer concussions and better performance starts with how we train the neck? We sit down with physiotherapist, inventor, and researcher Dr. Theo Versteegh to unpack a novel training device that targets rapid, eccentric stabilization—the exact kind of control impact sports demand. Instead of slow, single-plane moves, his device builds rate of force development in rotational and multiplanar directions, then tracks progress with clear metrics. The results are hard to ignore: multiple teams across genders report zero head and neck injury seasons after adoption, and many go on to win their conference within three years. On the clinical side, a randomized trial in persistent post-concussion syndrome shows 70%+ symptom reduction, alongside big gains in headache and neck disability scores.
We break down why Type II fast-twitch recruitment and proprioception are the missing links in concussion prevention, balance, and visual stability. You’ll hear how a simple, two-minute, twice-weekly protocol can raise resilience without adding grind to already packed schedules, and why more isn’t better—especially for those with headaches or dizziness. We also talk safety screening, learning curves, and how the self-limiting design only spins as fast as your system can control.
The NFL granted Topspin Technologies the First and Future Innovations to Advance Athlete Health and Safety Award in 2019. The Detroit Lions took the charge, adopting this technology, and went on to win their division for the first time in 31 years. In this conversation we connect the dots between neck readiness, better awareness on the field, and fewer neck and head injuries per season.
Want to reduce injuries, calm chronic headaches, and sharpen performance with just four minutes a week? Hit play, share this with your team, and subscribe for more brain-savvy training. Your podcast review helps more people find tools that actually move the needle.
TopSpin360 website
Dr. Theo Versteegh LinkedIn
Neck rehab consulting for clinicians: Neck Revolution
Get 20% off your first order of Puori protein with code LIFEAFTERIMPACT by following this link.
Dr. Wolf's book Concussion Breakthrough: Discover the Missing Pieces of Concussion Recovery is now available on Amazon!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (00:00):
So we've had like m now multiple sports
teams across both genders andmultiple sports that after
implementing training, in manycases, drop down to zero head
and neck injury seasons thefollowing year.
But also pretty excitingly isso far in in I think every case
(00:23):
within three years of adoptingTopsten 360, they've gone on to
win their conferencechampionship.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (00:29):
Welcome to Life After Impact, the Concussion
Recovery Podcast.
I'm Dr.
Ayla Wolf, and I'll be hostingtoday's episode where we help
you navigate the oftenconfusing, frustrating, and
overwhelming journey ofconcussion and brain injury
recovery.
This podcast is your go-toresource for actionable
information, whether you'redealing with a recent
(00:50):
concussion, struggling withpost-concussion syndrome, or
just feeling stuck in yourhealing process.
In each episode, we dive deepinto the symptoms, testing,
treatments, and neurologicalinsights that can help you move
forward with clarity andconfidence.
We bring you leading experts inthe world of brain health,
functional neurology, andrehabilitation to share their
(01:12):
wisdom and strategies.
So if you're feeling lost,hopeless, or like no one
understands what you're goingthrough, know that you are not
alone.
This podcast can be your guideand partner in recovery, helping
you build a better life afterimpact.
Dr.
Theo Versteegh, thank you somuch for coming on to Life After
(01:34):
Impact.
Welcome.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (01:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (01:38):
Yeah, I'm so excited to learn more about this
device that you created.
In the world of concussions, Ithink you're one of the few
people who's really doing thingsto try to prevent them in the
first place.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about your background
and kind of how you started topspin technologies and this
device that you created?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (01:59):
Sure.
So I'm a physiotherapist bytraining.
I've been practicing uhpredominantly or almost
exclusively in sports medicine,I guess, for over 25 years now.
And um uh at the last clinic Iwas working at, I was one of the
one of two sport concussionspecialists.
My interest began back in 2011.
(02:20):
And it was, uh I don't know howmany of your kind of audience
are hockey fans, but uh SidneyCrosby had a uh very significant
concussion back in 2011 that uhended up keeping him out for
almost a year.
And it uh the idea spawnedwhere all good ideas come from,
which was uh at the bar afterplaying wreck hockey myself.
(02:42):
So after a few beers, when yousolve all the world's problems.
And uh and they're showing thatuh um like the injury um uh,
you know, uh the previous onethat four days later he was
re-injured.
And myself and my um uh I guessteammate from uh from hockey,
he was also my strength andaddition coach back when I
(03:04):
played football in university,and we got chatting, and that
hit, it was quite noticeable howhis head just whipped around
like it wasn't even attached tohis body.
And certainly back when Iplayed football, we had the, you
know, somewhat archaic, but thefour-way neck machine.
So you, you know, you pushforward, push back, and side to
side.
Yeah.
And you know, we got talkinglike, oh, if his neck was
(03:25):
stronger, his head wouldn't haveflown around like it was on a
bobblehead.
And uh, and that kind of got usthinking about um uh just kind
of neck strengthening ingeneral, and kind of brought
back to the you know, thefour-way neck machine.
And and with my physiobackground, um, I was thinking,
okay, like, well, that'llstrengthen it going forward,
back, side to side, but it'salso that kind of rotational uh
(03:46):
impact.
And further, it's also kind ofthat fast eccentric uh load, so
where the muscles arecontracting, but they're getting
longer, so they're absorbingthe load, they're not generating
the load.
And it's a very different typeof contraction that you you
can't really get with doing atraditional four-way neck
machine.
(04:07):
And so it got me thinking, youknow, as a as a physiotherapist
and kind of key components of ifyou were to train the neck to
protect and stabilize the headin space, what would that look
like?
And again, the the key thing isto strengthen the muscles
eccentrically, but concussionsare also very fast events, so
(04:28):
you're gonna have to kind of getkind of uh the speed of
contraction involved.
So you're focusing on um thefastest twitch muscle fibers,
which are the type 2 X fibers orthe type 2 B fibers, if you
plan on when you do yourtraining, and uh, which are
three times faster than the type2A fibers.
And traditional neckstrengthening, you end up
focusing on that, those type 2afibers, which are notably
(04:48):
slower.
Um and also, you know, the neckis an incredibly complex
neuromuscular system, and itdoesn't just move the head in
single planes of motion, kind offorward, back, side to side.
Like it is, we are constantly,you know, if you're playing
sports, your head's on a swivel,and it's that rotational
(05:09):
direction that's really key forstabilizing and protecting uh
against potential head and neckinjuries because we're we're
quite unstable statically inthat because uh we don't have
any structural stability toprevent rotation because it's
such a key movement that we'vegot to be able to do very
quickly and we can't have itrestricted.
At the same time, it ends upbeing very prone to injury for
(05:33):
that exact reason because youeither have mobility or you have
stability.
So, with that, kind of a a lotof kind of thoughts, and it's
like, well, that's a pretty tallorder of training in order to
uh to properly train the neck tostabilize the head in space.
Um, was playing around with fora few months, just kind of
different approaches and andconcepts.
And I just happened to havewith another kind of concept I
(05:55):
was uh uh working on, they whatended up being uh an axis on top
with a with a weight, and it uhkind of swung around.
And I was like, oh my God,that's this is exactly what I'm
trying to achieve.
And that was the inceptionpoint of what is now the Tosman
360.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (06:14):
Gotcha.
Well, everything you just saidmakes so much sense about
differentiating between fasttwitch fibers and slow twitch.
And obviously in in sports andyou know, I did a lot of martial
arts and I have a very long,thin neck that I probably lacked
the needed strength.
And so when I got punched inthe face, I mean there was a ton
of rotational forces, and thoseare coming at you very quickly.
(06:35):
Yeah, nobody's punching you inslow motion.
Absolutely.
It makes sense that you need totrain something and to actually
strengthen those fast twitchmuscles versus just those
machines that people go throughwhere it is a slow controlled
motion that maybe isn't theexact replica of what you need
when you're in a sport likeboxing or martial arts or
(06:56):
football or absolutely, becausethese are like ballistic,
high-impact movements andtraining slowly, isotonically in
a single direction, it doesn'ttranslate.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (07:08):
I mean, this uh, you know, for the strength
and additioning coaches in youraudience, it's the the said
principle.
So specific adaptations toimpose demand.
Um, just as in order to trainfor to be a world leader in
100-yard dash, you don't trainby running marathons.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (07:25):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (07:29):
And the other thing is it has to be
safe.
You know, when you're doing it,theoretically, you could, you
know, like just do lighter andlighter punches and just kind of
build up the strength of thepunch.
But what if you know theperson's fatigued and you go to
that next load, you're causingthe injury that you're trying to
prevent.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (07:45):
Yeah.
Okay, so I've seen pictures ofyour device.
It kind of looks like a helmetalmost with a little boom that
comes off of it, and that thatboom is weighted.
And so talk to me about kind ofwhat this looks like when
people are using it.
Uh, what types of movements arethey doing?
I saw a little video of youfolding some laundry, I think,
and using it while you'refolding laundry, multitasking at
(08:06):
its best.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (08:08):
Exactly.
So it's got a essentiallymounted axis, and uh it, you
know, as everything does thesedays, it has a an app.
So you turn the uh the helmeton and you pair it with the app
and it brings it to the thetraining page.
And so you know, I'm just gonnado uh demonstration, I'll kind
of walk you through what I'mdoing for those who are
(08:29):
listening.
But essentially it's acentrally mounted axis on the
apex of the helmet with a asmall weight that is free to
spin in the full 360 degrees.
And once you've kind of poppedthe helmet on securely fitted,
you press start, and then the atjust merely counts the
revolutions and it alsocalculates out the centripetal
(08:52):
force that's generated, which ismass times velocity squared
over r.
But it we're not justinterested in the force, we want
to know the rate of forcedevelopment.
So how quickly can that neckgenerating multiplanar
stabilizing force?
And that's really kind of themetric that we wanna that we
(09:14):
wanna know and quantify is ishow good is the neck at
stabilizing the the head in alldirections of motion.
So with that, it ends up beingforce divided by time, which is
rate of force development, so uhin pounds of force per second.
And then the app afterwardsshows you your best rate of
(09:35):
force development in a clockwiseand counterclockwise direction
in pounds of force per second.
So that is yeah, a directmeasure of the next multiplanar
dynamic neck strength andstability.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (10:59):
Okay, awesome.
So not only are you using it,but the app is tracking a lot of
different metrics to be able toshow improvement over time as
far as stability.
And now you're not necessarilymoving your head that much, but
you're moving it quickly.
That's right.
Yeah.
And then in terms of the, Iknow you've been doing some
(11:19):
research on this, and you'veactually found some incredible
outcomes in terms of sportsteams that are implementing
this.
And by the end of their season,like there's zero concussions.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (11:29):
Yeah.
It's it is funny.
So we've had like now multiplesports teams across both genders
and multiple sports that afterimplementing training, in many
cases drop down to zero head andneck injury seasons the
following year.
(11:50):
But also pretty excitingly, isso far in in I think every case
within three years of adoptingTopspin 360, they've gone on to
win their conferencechampionship.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (12:03):
Okay, so you're not just preventing concussions,
but somehow you're improvingsports performance.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (12:08):
It yeah, and it is like, and we've been
doing uh so looking at theactual statistics.
Because that was um uh, youknow, I I I did my PhD research
in the multiplane dynamic necktraining.
So uh, you know, unfortunatelyI had to do a bunch of
statistics and you learn how toanalyze that stuff.
And yeah, like I mean, theresults are really hard to argue
(12:30):
when you look at kind ofpre-Topspin and post-Topspin,
the the number of wins and thenthe the increase in
championship.
There's a three and a half foldincreased likelihood of winning
a championship afterimplementing Topspin compared to
before.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (12:45):
Well, that's a motivator for uh a team to adopt
this technology.
And how much time are peoplespending actually using the
device, like per day or perweek?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (12:55):
Yeah, so it's that's the other thing is
I'm very fond of the minimumeffective dose and uh and high
intensity interval training.
So it's two minutes of trainingtwice a week is the kind of the
studies that we've done, and uhquite dramatic and substantial
improvements.
Specifically, the outcomemeasure we've been doing is
(13:16):
multiplanar static neckstrength.
So we do just look at uhflexion, extension, right, left
side flexion, right, leftrotation strength.
And the average improvement inall of those directions, so
constant neck strength is 1%each two-minute training session
that they do.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (13:35):
Wow.
And so you're talking fourminutes a week.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (13:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (13:38):
Wow.
And so that's obviously verydoable.
And that also makes me thinkthat clinically, you you know,
you have a lot of people goinginto physical therapy clinics,
all kinds of clinics that aredoing different uh rehab and
sports performance.
And so that would also be veryeasy to implement in a clinical
setting, too, if you're simplyneeding someone to come in, you
know, all people are alreadycoming in twice a week.
(13:59):
You just add two minutes totheir uh session, and you could
have astronomical results interms of neck strength and
stability and preventing futureconcussions.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (14:09):
That's right.
Yeah, and it's uh it's provingvery effective at treating those
who are clinically symptomaticwith concussion, um, you know,
uh headaches, dizziness, um, uhpost-traumatic migraine, stuff
like that.
We've got a a study that thedata collection is done, the
analysis done, we're just in theprocess of writing up.
It was a randomized controltrial where we took persistent
(14:33):
post-concussion syndrome forgreater than four weeks
post-injury of 13-year-olds andabove.
So this is, you know, ifthere's a high risk population
that you're going to be timidabout experimenting on, it'd be
a 13-year-old girl who sufferssport-blade concussion who's
still suffering with headaches,you know, four weeks later.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (14:52):
And uh because the device is inherently
safe, you can't get it goingany faster than you are capable
of getting it spinning.
So whether that's whatever thelimiting factor is, whether it's
strength or neuromuscularcontrol or balance or
proprioception or coordination,it's a very small way.
It it will not spin on its own.
So it's kind of like a hulahoop.
(15:12):
If someone's really good athula hoop, it looks like they're
barely moving, the thing's justwhipping around them.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (15:17):
Right, right.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (15:18):
Can't do it.
You're like, I can't get thisthing up.
What's going on here?
Right?
And so it's it's uh it's asimilar kind of neuromuscular
pattern.
So it's inherently safe.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (15:27):
So this is a hula hoop for the head.
Yeah, pretty much.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (15:30):
That's right.
That's right.
And uh, and so with this study,it was a randomized control
trial and 29 in each arm, and itwas at least four weeks uh
post-injury.
On average, it was closer tothree months post-injury, which
is a critical window because atthat point, when you've had a
concussion and you've gone tolike every doctor,
physiotherapist, and oh yeah,it'll be better by you know
(15:51):
three months.
So, like, you know, that12-week mark, it'll be fine.
But then it gets to that12-week mark and they're not
fine, and there's a significantuptick in anxiety.
Like everyone is telling me I'dbe better by now and I'm not
better.
Like, what is going on?
So when we looked at it, theywere 72 days post-interest.
So they're getting close tothat danger zone, if you will.
And one group got standard ofcare, which was referral to
(16:13):
physiotherapy, and the othergroup got standard of care
referral to physiotherapy and uhTopspin 360 to take home, train
on it two minutes twice a weekfor eight weeks.
Uh at the end of the eightweeks, the the main, the primary
outcome measure was SCAT 5symptom scores.
Like where are you with all ofthese symptom profiles?
(16:34):
And I I know you're familiarwith the SCAT 5 and the
symptoms.
And the intervention group hadover 70% reduction in their SCAT
5 symptom scores, whereas thecontrol group actually had a 10%
increase.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (16:49):
Wow, that's a huge difference.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (16:51):
Huge difference.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (16:53):
That's so exciting.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (16:55):
Yeah, it it it's been it's been remarkable.
And then the other ones welooked at was uh the neck
disability index and theheadache disability index.
And both of those also improveddramatically, 35 and 40
percent.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (17:07):
So you're finding that even people who actively
have neck pain are able to usethis device and it's actually
improving their neck pain.
And uh so that uh because justwhen I watch you do it, you
know, it would seem like, oh, ifsomeone has neck pain, that
might create more neck pain, butyou're actually finding the
opposite.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (17:25):
Yeah.
And and again, because youknow, when I do it, I've I've
you know done it a few times.
So I can, you know, Denver'slike, whoa.
And someone with neck painlooks at and they're like,
there's no way I'm putting thatcrazy helmet on.
Like, no way.
And to be honest, that'sactually probably a leading
indicator that this will helpthem is when their visceral
(17:46):
response is, oh, there's no wayI'm putting that on.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (17:49):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And so there's a bit of alearning curve or a process of
getting familiar with the deviceand and and how to use it.
And I'm assuming, like youmentioned, you've used it a lot,
so you can do it and it looksgreat like you're an expert hula
hooper.
But when someone's startingout, you're finding their
velocity is maybe a lot slower.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (18:09):
A lot slower, yeah.
I mean, um, so the first timeaverage healthy adult female
puts it on is around, they'llgenerate around three to three
and a half pounds of force persecond.
And average healthy adult male,first time, you know, uh
completely novel to a no historyof head or neck injury, uh, is
around five, five and a halfpounds.
In my experience, uh, and evenwith that study, the average RFD
(18:34):
of someone who is, you know,chronic neck pain, chronic
headache, dizziness, migrainesufferer, um, they're less than
one pound of force.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (18:44):
Okay.
So you're kind of seeing whatsome of these initial metrics
look like when people arestarting out using the device
and then how that improves overtime.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (18:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's it's again quitedramatic.
And it's amazing how telling itis, like that initial value of
where they are from a uhneuromuscular cervical
perspective.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (19:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, amazing.
And then super exciting.
You actually won an award fromthe NFL, which was an athlete
health and safety award.
1100 companies basicallyapplied to get this award and
you guys won it.
So A, congrats.
Thank you.
B, tell me a little bit aboutyou know what that experience
(19:29):
was like and how that's helpedyou to maybe get into you know
more just more spaces and moreopportunities and more teams.
And because it sounds likeyou've just got this incredible
device that's making a hugedifference in these athletes'
lives.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (19:41):
It's been, it was really exciting.
So that was, I guess, back inum uh a few years ago now, like
2019.
And we applied for this, youknow, first and future uh
innovations to advance athletehealth and safety.
And there's 1,100 other kind ofthat applied for it.
And we got, I guess, top fivewith the applications.
So we were flown down toAtlanta where the Super Bowl was
that year, and uh, we got youknow some prep and and all this,
(20:03):
and we presented on theSaturday before the Super Bowl.
Um, and uh, you know, RogerGoodell was there and uh Larry
Fitzgerald and and the wholepanel and and kind of presented
to them.
And in the end, we ended up uhwinning.
So we got uh like $50,000 andtwo tickets to the Super Bowl.
Um yeah, and we're winners ofthe first and future word for
innovations to advance athletehealth and safety.
(20:24):
And yeah, it um timing couldhave been better because uh very
shortly after that, COVID hitand uh kind of shut everything
down.
Um but you know, now thatthings have opened back up,
yeah.
We got our kind of first NFLfootball team to fully adopt and
train the entire team, uh,which was uh the Detroit Lions a
couple years ago.
And they went on to have a zerohead and neck injury season
(20:46):
that year.
So it was really exciting.
And, you know, of note, theyalso went on to win their
conference championship for thefirst time in over 30 years.
They had the longest playoffwin drought in the NFL at that
time at 31 years.
The last time they won, theyhad Barry Sanders as their
running back.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (21:03):
So wow.
Okay.
So you might have had somethingto do with that.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (21:07):
It's you know, I'll tell you what, like,
you know, correlation's notcausation, but seems to hang out
with us, uh good things happen.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (21:15):
Yeah.
Well, gosh, I feel like all ofthe teams need to be uh piling
on and adopting this technology.
All right now, is this alsoavailable for just the average
person who's been in a caraccident, has had a neck injury,
concussion?
Like, can people purchase thisdevice for home use?
What is the distribution at themoment?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (21:35):
The a key thing to note, and this is um uh
like an advantage of it, isit's actually a piece of
exercise equipment.
So similar to a treadmill, andyou can use a treadmill to rehab
kind of post-concussion.
The treadmill is not a medicaldevice, but you can use it to
treat uh various conditions.
So we do um it is a piece ofexercise equipment.
(21:57):
Uh and again, the same kind ofuh qualifications, you know,
consult your healthcarepractitioner before embarking on
it.
Uh and in those cases, uh weend up um like with me as a
physiotherapist and uh and myPhD in it.
Generally the avenue we like totake is to train healthcare
practitioners how to use thisdevice as therapeutic exercise
(22:20):
to treat various conditions,just as you would, you know,
hey, you got a treadmill, let meshow you how to do the
concussion treadmill test.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (22:26):
Right.
Got it.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (22:28):
So there is um, you know, the option for
that.
And it's yeah, my clinicalfolks, although it's only
part-time, I focus on theessentially five, 10, sometimes
20-year history of of chronicwhiplash, chronic concussion,
um, chronic dizziness, uh,headaches, migraines.
And it's it is really quiteremarkable the results that
(22:53):
these long-standing uh patientswill see with doing some
appropriate neuromusculartraining of the neck.
Because in most cases, ifthey've done neck strengthening,
it's you know, grab a therabandand kind of push it this way or
that, um, or deep neck flexorand just kind of hold it there
indefinitely, uh, which doesn'ttranslate to how the neck
functionally works.
(23:15):
And in some cases, it can bedetrimental in other areas of
neuromuscular control.
So there's evidence that thattype of strengthening is
detrimental to proprioception,which is really key of what the
neck's role is with the body.
So the neck has the mostproprioceptive fibers in the
(23:36):
entire body, and that's not awaste of resources because
because we walk on two feet, weneed to know exactly where our
head is in minute detail inorder for us to not constantly
be tripping and falling on ourface.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (23:48):
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so right now you're hopingto essentially kind of get this
device into more clinical spacesin addition to like sports
teams and uh and then havepeople access it that way.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (24:04):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean, there are uh as Imentioned, the you know, people
can um uh it is a piece ofexercise equipment, but yeah, it
it's best because it's so noveland unique, like it's not
something, oh, I get it.
You put it on and you do this.
It's it's not intuitive at all.
Like there's there's literallynothing that you can compare to,
oh, it's just like doing this.
(24:25):
Nope.
It's it's not like anything.
So that's one thing that we'velearned is um because of the
steep learning curve for from arehab capacity, you know, again,
the ones that we can help themost are also the ones that are
most apprehensive about usingit.
So it it requires just kind ofyou know guidance and and just
proper assessment, clinicalassessment and and um you know
prescription on on how you'd usethis piece of exercise
(24:48):
equipment, just as any otherkind of therapeutic exercise
applied can pop.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (24:52):
Right.
Since uh many people fall intothe trap of thinking more is
better, uh, and you're sayingyou only need to do this two
minutes twice a week, thenthat's also kind of important
that maybe people aren't takingit and then doing it for 20
minutes every day.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (25:06):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, the two minutes I get onepercent, then I'll do it like
20 minutes and then I'll get10%.
And it's like, yeah, no, it'snot gonna work that way, you
know?
And it's it's it's funny howlike we're talking about this
and it seems common sense, butlike that is kind of what you
run into um with it.
So it's like, yeah, you do haveto be careful on how it's uh
how it's implemented.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (25:27):
Yeah, exactly.
And I mean, I've fallen uh intothat trap when those Vibram
five finger like running shoescame out, you know, over a
decade ago.
They're like, okay, you know,only go for like maybe half a
mile.
I popped those things on andwent for like a five-mile trail
run and gave myself Achillestendonitis.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (25:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, barefoot running, that'swhat you got to do.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (25:49):
Um, exactly.
Let's go barefoot run throughthe woods for five miles.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (25:54):
Like you know how much different is it
from running with shoes?
I know how to run.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (25:59):
So I could totally see myself popping this
helmet on and being like, allright, let's go.
Ten minutes.
Let's put it down.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (26:04):
Yeah, yeah.
It's uh yeah, that's exactlythe precaution.
unknown (26:10):
Yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (26:11):
Because it is something, you know, it's
exercise.
And if you overdo the exercise,you're gonna, you're gonna pay
the price, you know?
Like the body will get better,but it's you know, the late
onset muscle soreness is andespecially in the neck with
someone who suffers fromheadaches or migraines.
Um, if you go aggressively atit, it'll be like, oh, that
triggered my migraine.
Yeah, no kidding.
Like this is targeting theexact area that is the source of
(26:33):
your migraines, and you've justdrained it quite aggressively.
So yeah.
At the same time, it's alsoconfirmatory that this is what
this is targeting the tissuesthat are at fault.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (26:45):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Your your headaches are comingfrom your neck.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (26:52):
And uh so in addition to kind of seeing,
okay, so you've kind of talkedabout people are using this
device, they're actually seeingless headaches, less migraines,
less dizziness.
Um, I'm assuming improvedbalance as one of the markers
too.
Have you done any studiesspecifically look looking at
balance?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (27:12):
So I haven't, but there was a study
that was done at AcadiaUniversity using Tospin and in a
healthy group of universitystudents who you know you always
do your studies on, uh, theydid improve static standing
balance with training onTopspin.
And that's like it which again,clinically, that's what what
I've seen is because I all treatpeople with chronic dizziness
(27:35):
and you know, chronic headaches,chronic migraine.
The average reduction in withmy clinical population uh with
train on tospin is I use theheadache disability index as a
as a marker of their uh headachescore and kind of uh
impairment.
And the average reduction inheadache disability index is
over 50% after the first monthalone and about 75% after the
(27:56):
second month.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (27:58):
Wow, that's huge.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (27:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's again kind of twominutes of training.
With the with that where theykind of see me and have their
helmet, then it's um every otherday, because it's again, it's
only two minutes of training anduh if they have it with them.
You know, it's not like oh,I've got to drive across town to
put this helmet on for twominutes and drive back.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (28:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And are there anybody uh thatyou would say maybe isn't a good
fit for this, at least atcertain time points in their
recovery or based on whatthey're dealing with?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (28:26):
Yeah.
So basically anyone who is umlike I guess acutely unstable
neck.
So uh, you know, if it's ifit's immediately after uh a
whiplash and you haven't hadthat kind of you know ruled out
and cleared, uh if you've gotany active fractures at the
point.
And then the the one screeningtest we recommend is uh it's the
(28:49):
uh Spurling's compression test.
Um so essentially you put youknow about five pounds of force
through the spine, uh throughthe head and the neck.
And if they can't toleratethat, uh like the weight of the
helmet system is about fivepounds.
So you just, you know, that'swhere you do some kind of manual
therapy and uh you know, oracupuncture would like just to
settle that system down until itcan tolerate a bit of uh
(29:11):
compression load.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (29:12):
Okay.
Gotcha.
And then uh in terms of likeligament laxity, you mentioned
whiplash.
So if somebody does have a lotof cervical instability, a lot
of ligament laxity, um, can thisbe helpful?
Do they have to like do certainthings prior to working up to
it?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (29:27):
Yeah, and and no, and and the the reason
it's it's very helpful in thisin that like think about um you
know traditional ankle sprainwhere um if you uh you know,
grade three ATFL rupture.
So all of a sudden you've loststatic stability of the ankle.
Uh you're not gonna get surgeryon that particular ligament.
(29:49):
It's the most common one to bekind of fully ruptured.
But what you are gonna do isrehab it by not just
strengthening the muscles.
Like you're not gonna get thereby doing green theraband
inversion and eversion, right?
You've got to dynamically trainthose muscles to restore the
function that you've now loststatically, dynamically.
So the muscles now have tocompensate for that lack of
(30:12):
structural stability withdynamic stability.
So with with uh you know uhmost rehab exercises, you'll be,
you'll be doing progressivelymore challenging balance.
So, you know, standing on onefoot solid ground, then on like
a BOSU or a um like a foam Airex or something like that, and
then getting into some uh likehops, two-legged hops and then
(30:33):
single-legged, and you start todynamically load those tissues
in order to normalize it and toget it to compensate.
And that's where if you rehabit properly, then even though
they no longer have thatstructural stability, that
static stability, they arecompletely pain free and they're
able to do all of theiractivities from before because
(30:55):
they've retrained the brain toget the proprioceptive inputs
from the muscles, no longer fromthe the ligament that would
tell them when it's on stretch.
So the same thing applies forthe neck is if you've got
ligamentous laxity, um then.
Retrain the muscles around itto compensate and to
essentially, yeah, compensatefor that.
(31:17):
And uh and you can bring it upback to that level.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (31:20):
Incredible.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (31:22):
Yeah, it's been uh it's been exciting.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh so what are you seeingnext?
Like, do you have uh futureresearch you want to do?
Are you just at this point kindof trying to raise awareness
and get uh hopefully more teamsto adopt this as a concussion
prevention strategy?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (31:38):
Yeah, I mean, uh ideally, certainly as
uh, you know, imp increased uhinjury resilience and um and
even you know performanceenhancement because it's also uh
the neck is a uh kind of thelast frontier of uh performance
hands.
We every everyone's got leg dayand everyone does, you know,
chest and back, right?
But what's your neck day?
You know?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (31:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (31:58):
And and trying to kind of bring that
into the mainstream so thatpeople appreciate that actually
this plays a real significantrole in sport performance
because uh the more dynamicallystable you are, the better
you're gonna be able to see thefield and awareness of where
your body is in relationship toother opponents or like the
ball, the puck, the whateverobject that you're playing with.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (32:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The other guy's fist.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (32:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, exactly.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (32:25):
Yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (32:26):
Being able to absorb that.
Like that's yeah, certainly abig role in MMA or boxing
because like every impact to thehead is a high impact, fast you
know, um movement that you'vegot to be able to dynamically
stabilizing it.
So it's the nice thing isagain, it gives you an actual
metric value as to how stable,dynamically stable your neck is.
(32:49):
And the higher it is, the yeah,the the more resilient you are
to those impacts.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (32:54):
Yeah.
I mean, I remember learning howto snowboard.
And when you're learning how tosnowboard, you constantly are
like falling backwards andfalling forwards, and then you
wake up the next day and yourSCMs are just on fire.
And I mean, you feel likeyou're in a corner.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (33:08):
Yeah.
Uh commonly a mild headache,right?
And it's like, oh man, yeah,catching the zero edge on a on
like hard packed.
Oh.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (33:16):
Exactly.
And even when you think aboutagain, like your head, you're
you're, you know, crashing, yourhead is going back pretty
quickly.
Like those are those are prettyhigh velocity whiplashes you
can get when you crash uhsnowboarding, wakeboarding, all
all of those, all of the sportsI used to do all the time,
right?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (33:33):
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
And uh oh, I mean, it'sinteresting because uh like even
for me, I've got a uh11-year-old son who wanted to
play, he was playing flagfootball and then he wanted to
play contact football.
And I said, um, yeah, that'sfine, but not until you get to a
safe level on on my helmet.
And uh and sure enough, he did,and now he's he's playing
contact.
And oh, it's for me, it's it'speace of mind that like, you
(33:57):
know what?
Yeah, he he even if he does,it's not gonna make him
concussion proof, but even if hedoes, he'll be resilient enough
that it's not gonna be like, ohmy God, you're gonna lose the
next year of academic and you'regonna be, you know, uh feeling
like you need a dark room.
And everyone's like, nope, I'mpretty solid that you'll uh
you'll bounce back.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (34:17):
Yeah, yeah.
That's amazing.
This idea of you can have peaceof mind if you've got uh
yourself or your kids in sportsand you just want to know
they're gonna be safe andprotected.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (34:26):
And yeah.
Yeah, so that's been uhcertainly a big part.
But yeah, I know because you'vegot a a history with uh
essentially martial arts and andum I mean jujitsu is certainly
one where kind of learning tofall would be uh would be key,
but also kickboxing, like yeah,I mean you you've got a long
neck and just a beautiful littletarget.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (34:46):
That's uh exactly.
Yeah, but I have a long leverthere for uh my brain to get
rattled.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Right?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (34:52):
Yeah.
Well, and in jujitsu, you know,you're getting choked out too.
There's a lot of neck trauma.
And uh there's I mean, peoplein jujitsu generally do have
very strong necks because theyare often on their back, but
they're holding their head up asthey're moving around.
And so um, you know, I thinkjujitsu inherently does promote
good neck strength, but to havethat really quick, like you
(35:13):
said, the fast twitch musclesalso getting strengthened and
being able to stabilize in themoment, I could see that as a
huge benefit too.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (35:23):
Gosh, well, that's amazing.
Your app that is uh associatedwith the device is basically
measuring like the velocity, therotations, it's it's tracking
people over time.
So like somebody has an accountthat actually shows their their
improvements.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (35:37):
Yeah.
It uh time and date stamps, allthe training sessions, so you
can very kind of quickly gothrough and you can track your
progress uh over time.
And and the other neat thing isthat um it'll also like if you
are, you know, like, oh geez, Iwas kind of flared up or had a
cold or whatever, you'll you'llsee your scores drop uh in
relationship to that because itis kind of quite sensitive to
(35:59):
kind of how you're feeling uhthat day, your energy levels,
and um, yeah.
And I mean, if you've got somekind of late onset muscle
soreness, it's gonna kind ofslow you down a bit.
Uh so it is really kind of neatto see uh people kind of
progress.
Generally, they do improvequite, you know, almost linearly
within uh within reason, butyou will see variations just on
(36:20):
uh somewhat day-to-day on on howthey're feeling.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (36:24):
Okay.
Amazing.
So it's almost like asensitive, like a heart rate
variability is it can detectsubtle changes in how you're
feeling that day.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (36:32):
Exactly.
Yeah, and especially and alsoif um like we've got uh kind of
a case with um uh before a avolleyball player trained
herself up to a very kind ofstable level and then took a
huge shot off the head.
Um, you know, and everyonethought she got her hands up,
it's like, oh no, that beat meright off the face.
So the coach was like, okay,well, we've got test you for a
(36:54):
concussion.
I'm like, no, I'm fine, I'mfine.
Took her out, test for she wasfine.
She cleared it, she went backinto the game, finished the
game.
Coach followed, like, you sureyou're fine?
Yeah, like, no, well, what'sthe big deal?
Two days later, when she wenton her top swing, her top swin
score dropped significantly.
And then, like a couple dayslater, she was back up into her
regular training uh kind ofrange.
(37:17):
But it just goes to show thatno, actually, her neck absorbed
all of that and is gonna needkind of a couple days to to
recover.
Then she'll be fine.
Now, had she played anothergame on that second day and took
another hit to the head,chances are she she would have
been concussed, right?
Because on that second day, herscore on the toss one would
(37:38):
have flagged her as higher risk.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (37:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I had uh kind ofI'd given myself a concussion in
March of this year.
But what's was interesting wasthat the I was bending down to
unplug something and I stoodback up and there was a uh a
cabinet door that was open.
And so I smacked the top of myhead really hard into the
cabinet door.
(38:01):
The funny thing is that I haddone the exact same thing, like
either the month or two before.
So I had done the exact samething four to six weeks ago, and
I was fine.
But the second time I did it,it was immediately dizziness,
nausea, headache, blurry vision.
So yeah, it's that idea oflike, you know, you did
(38:21):
something once, you might beokay, but the same thing happens
shortly after, and your body'slike, okay.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (38:27):
Yeah, that's right.
And actually, it's interestingbecause that's also what I think
happened it with Sidney Crosby,because like when he took that
impact, like, you know, oh, itwas it can cost her neck injury.
But you see, it's like, ooh,that was a pretty significant
injury.
And then he seemed to be fine.
He was back in uh like fourdays later, and then his the
next hit was into the boards.
(38:47):
You look at it, you're like,really?
That kept him out for almost ayear?
No.
The first injury took away allhis defenses, and then he's like
just going around completelyprone and uh and open.
And that's what taking him outthe second time.
Yeah, now you're dealing with alot of stuff you've got to, you
know, rehab before you can getback to the game.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (39:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Did you know my mentor, Dr.
Carrick, was one of the peoplewho was very instrumental in
getting Sid Crosby over thatconcussion and back in the game?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (39:17):
I did know, yeah.
Yeah, that was pretty exciting.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, he's incredible.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (39:23):
And so with your, because obviously you've
kind of come round to focusingpredominantly on on concussion
and the return.
And the majority of that isfrom your own kind of personal
journey.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (39:35):
Um, I mean, initially when I started out, I
focused on fertility, yes.
And so the first seven, eightyears I was in practice, I was
doing women's health, fertility,hormones.
During that time, I did rack upa lot of my own concussions.
And so that's what led me tostart studying functional
neurology through the CarrrickInstitute, go back to school,
get my doctorate degree where Iwas studying traumatic brain
(39:57):
injuries.
And so, yeah, that that was allkind of my journey to heal my
own brain and then recognizethat things like herbs and
supplements only really get youa certain way.
And then you really need theactive neuro rehab.
Like that's so important.
And so that really led me to uhtrying to just get the word out
(40:19):
there to more people who are,you know, running into
roadblocks in medicine.
Uh and so yeah, I've just onceI've fixed my own brain, uh, and
then you know, when I got thatconcussion in March, because I
knew what to do, 10 days later,I was pretty much symptom-free
again.
So to say that my on my 10thconcussion that I healed in 10
(40:40):
days, I think is a testament tothe fact that when you know what
to do and you do it right away,you can get better and you
know, your brain can recoverwhen you give it the right, the
right things.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (40:52):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And it it's yeah, you'reexactly right.
Because normally, kind of witheach subsequent concussion,
there's a much higher risk of itbeing a prolonged process.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (41:03):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I worked with a uhcompetitive half pipe
snowboarder, and she said thatshe had been doing that for 13
years.
And she's like, Yeah, prettymuch once a season I probably
get a concussion.
I mean, it's just these thingsare so much more common, and
people, I think, always hopethat if they get it, they can
just walk it off and be okay.
(41:24):
But the idea that there'sthings that we can do to prevent
them and prevent the severityof them, uh so important.
We need I just feel like uhbased on what I'm hearing, like
every single sports team needsone of these helmets.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (41:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it's it yeah.
I mean, the the results thatwe're seeing, it's just it's
mind-boggling.
But it's also kind of likeselling insurance, right?
You know, it's just likeprevention is is surprisingly,
it's a it's a tough sell becauseyou're like, ah, no, I think we
were okay with uh, we didn'thave that many you know
concussions last year.
They almost don't want to, youknow, admit to it.
(41:59):
It's like, oh, okay.
Right.
But you know, the performanceenhancement side uh is uh is you
know quite beneficial.
So we'll probably focus on thatwith the uh with the Top Sun
360.
Um and then you know, more withthe the rehab side, um uh using
therapeutic exercise to totreat and uh kind of enhance
(42:19):
that.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:20):
It's almost like the concussion concussion
prevention is the added bonus toenhancing your performance.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:26):
You're right.
Yep, totally improved injuryresilience, and you know,
chances are your team's gonnawin your championship.
Really?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:33):
Right, right?
Yep, that makes it easier tosell right there.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:36):
It does.
Absolutely.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:38):
Awesome.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:39):
Uh predominantly the journey.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:40):
Are you making these helmets in different
sizes?
I mean, like I know my nephew,when he was eight, needed adult
helmets because he had a hugehead, but that's not all kids'
cases.
So do you have it in differentsizes?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:53):
We do.
So we've got small, medium,large, and extra large.
And uh like a medium and alarge will generally cover about
80% of the population, and thenuh extra large, obviously for
the kind of larger individuals,and then uh small for you know
the the either uh usually kindof petite females or the
pediatric um population.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (43:13):
Okay.
Excellent.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (43:14):
Yeah, and with sorry, with uh you asked
about uh research.
So we do have um like if youGoogle Topspin360 and the Mayo
Clinic, like they're currentlydoing a research study looking
at uh uh uh injury prevention inuh hockey players, competitive
hockey players.
And uh so we've got, yeah, kindof a a few other kind of
studies, one in uh in Calgarylooking at incorporating Topspin
(43:39):
with uh other approaches forconcussion and uh lower
extremity injury risk reduction.
And so far the preliminaryresults are quite dramatic and
and encouraging for sure.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (43:50):
Yeah, that's so exciting.
Well, I can't wait to stay ontop of the research, see what
else is coming out.
And then why don't you letpeople know where they can find
you, more information about thedevice if they're interested in
bringing that into their clinicor their sports team.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (44:06):
Sure.
So with uh with the device,it'd be Topspin360.com is like
our website to learn more aboutme.
Probably the easiest would beon LinkedIn.
So Theo Versteegh on LinkedIn,and uh and then they can
subscribe to my newsletter,Necks to Impossible.
So uh uh we'll talk about theneck.
And then neckrevolution.com iswhere I talk more about the the
(44:29):
rehab side um and like the theconsultancy for people who are
struggling.
The the nice thing that'sreally rewarding for me is that
because the patient population Ideal with are five, 10 years
out, in pretty much every case,when they get to me, they've
seen everyone under the sun,which makes it really easy
(44:50):
because if they haven't gottenbetter with seeing these often
20 plus practitioners, it makesme more confident that I can get
them better because if it wasanything else, the one of the
other 20 practitioners wouldhave found it and treated it and
they'd be better by now.
So the it's a bit of a yeah,kind of I guess litmus test is
(45:12):
is how many people they've seenfor it.
And the more people they'veseen, the more confident I am
that I can get them betterbecause this is the one thing
that no one else is able to doright now.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (45:23):
Right, right.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (45:24):
It's it's it's been a quite rewarding.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (45:26):
Yeah, you've got the the missing link there.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (45:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (45:30):
So talk a little bit more about your clinical
practice.
Um, are you seeing primarilypeople with post-concussion
syndrome?
Is that kind of the basis ofyour patient population?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (45:40):
Yeah, long-standing, like I said, uh
generally, I think the earliestuh the average is definitely
five to eight years post-injury.
Um many cases kind of 10 to 15years.
And the other ones, you know,that I find great results with
(46:00):
are those who have specificallypost-traumatic headache or andor
migraine, and the ones who arebeing treated with who get some
relief from Botox injections.
And the reason being is thatfor when you're doing
injections, Botox injections forthe treatment of headache
and or migraine, where theyfocus on is the neck.
(46:24):
And they end up like it's Imean, it's just I I hope to God
in you know, many years peoplewill look back and and compare
injecting Botox to treatmigraine as leeches.
Like in in what like literallyit's they shortened it to Botox
(46:45):
because it's botulin toxin.
And they are literallyinjecting it to kill the nerve
and the muscle.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (46:53):
Yeah.
And then people go inindefinitely every three months
to do it.
So I'm like clearly the it'snot fixing the problem if you
have to go in every threemonths.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (47:02):
Because the body, each time you do it,
you're like, and then it's like,okay, I guess we're regrowing
these again.
Uh why do you keep killingthem, right?
And then it's like, oh, it'scoming back.
Oh, we'll kill them again.
What?
Yeah.
So I've got uh several caseswith um uh yeah, uh three so far
that um uh it actually like inall three cases where there were
(47:25):
years of Botox injections, theyare completely off of Botox.
And like to quote one, it's asif the accident never happened.
And again, it's because, yeah,as opposed to, you know, killing
the thing that's causing youthe symptoms because it's
telling you something's wrong,why don't you try fixing what's
wrong?
And oh wow, all of a sudden nowyou don't need Botox anymore.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (47:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I use a uh a pulsedradio frequency kind of
peripheral nerve stimulator totry to help restore health to
those the greater occipitalnerve, less occipital nerve.
But to be able to pair thatwith the actual neck
strengthening component, it'slike, oh, now I feel like I can
knock this out of the park.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (48:05):
Honestly, you would, it would completely
change and improve like thatdemographic that you're using
that on because where theoccipital nerve comes out of,
it's it's essentially the topvertebrae comes from behind.
And if you've got unstablethere and you're constantly kind
of hammering on it because youdon't have that dynamic movement
properly with the neck, yourestore that.
(48:27):
You take that every now andthen pressure off the occipital
nerve.
Oh, wow, hey, their migraineshave gone away.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (48:35):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that makes so much sense.
And and definitely I have thepatient population where they'd
probably look at that helmet andgo, nope.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (48:42):
Nope, there's no way.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, oh, perfect.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah, I'd be happy ifyou want to even uh play around
with the uh case study and justdo before and after, and it'll
be like you'll see the resultsin, like I said, uh after the
first month is usually about50%.
After the second month, it'sabout 75% on that headache kind
(49:02):
of population, especially thoseones that have that history of
uh Botox.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (49:08):
Yeah.
Well, and you know, so manyclinicians if who work with this
patient population, if they'rebeing super honest, will
absolutely tell you that thosepost-traumatic headaches can be
so stubborn.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (49:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (49:20):
And like you're saying, I mean, people are
coming to you eight to 15 yearsafter their concussion and still
symptomatic.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (49:26):
Yeah.
Exactly.
And it and it's still, youknow, at the point of daily
headaches and daily, you know, Ihad a one who was um, she was
saying that after treatment, shedidn't realize how much time
and effort it was taking tomanage her symptoms.
Like it was like a part-timejob because, you know, like, oh,
(49:46):
hey, do you want to go out thisFriday?
It was Wednesday.
It's like, I have no idea whatFriday is gonna be like.
Like, if it was today, I'd beokay.
I don't know what Thursday andFriday are gonna bring.
So yeah, let's pencil that in,you know?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (50:00):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that chronic pain, it justrobs you.
I mean, I I had to have afusion on my lumbar spine, but
for seven and a half years, Ihad daily chronic, horrible low
back pain from the age of like28 to 35.
And that just robbed me of someof like the best years of my
life where every single thing Idid was painful.
(50:21):
Yeah.
And so I just I feel, you know,my heart goes out to people who
have chronic pain because it,it, it's hard to just be at ease
in the world.
You know, it just takes so muchaway from you.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (50:31):
Oh, yeah, I agree.
And and the other challengingthing is that I find a lot of
chronic pain kind of researchand direction, specifically with
with neck pain, is because, youknow, until now there haven't
been effective treatmentapproaches for it.
A lot of it has been reframingblaming the patient in that like
(50:55):
it's um, you know, even withthe explain pain, it's like, oh,
well, you know, it's, you know,we look at it, there's nothing
wrong.
You turn your head here and itcauses pain.
It's because your like painfibers have been hypersensitive
and it's not actually dangerous,but it's just telling you that
it is.
So we've got to retrain that tolet it learn that it's not.
(51:16):
It's like, no, when you turnit, it hurts, it's causing pain.
That's the problem.
Retrain so that it doesn'tcause pain when they do that
anymore.
And like, you know, I've gotevidence that you can do that.
And if you just objectivelymeasure their multiplanar range
of motion, see where that sitscompared to healthy adult male
(51:36):
or female averages, and thenmultiplanar static neck strength
and see where that is, treatit, get those better, and
miraculously their symptomsimprove too.
So it's just you're yeah, treatthe right things.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (51:51):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's I think a huge whatyou just mentioned about like pa
patients.
Um the last thing you want todo is make them feel guilty or
blame them for their experiencewhen they don't want this.
They're not asking for this,they just want their life back.
So exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (52:08):
And just uh, you know, saying that, oh, it's
because you know, you're you'vegot hypersensitive pain fibers.
It's like, no, there'ssomething that's pinching that's
causing the pain that like it'snot hypersensitive, it's it's
cause that's what is there foris to tell me when I'm doing
something that's causing pain.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (52:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Man, well, gosh, I'm so excitedfor for you, for this device,
for the world to be able to havethe device.
Uh so I will put all of thatinformation in the show notes.
Is there anything we haven'ttalked about yet that you want
to share or anything excitingthat's coming up?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (52:44):
I think that I think we've uh touched on
everything that I can think ofuh off the top of my head.
But yeah, I mean it it'd be uhlike for you if you with your
target population, happy to lookat doing a uh kind of a case
study of it and see where itgoes because it's yeah.
It is it's really quiteremarkable.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (53:04):
I have I have so many people who I think could
benefit from this.
So and I I've been wanting tofigure out like how do I bring a
strength-building componentinto my practice without just
referring people to the clinicdown the road that has the
machines that do this and dothat.
And yeah, so yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (53:21):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
We should uh this works.
We'll talk.
We'll uh get you sorted.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (53:28):
Love it, love it.
Okay, well, thank you so, somuch for coming on the show.
I can't wait to share thisepisode with everybody.
Very, very grateful that youcame with this device, but
congratulations on winning thataward and getting this out into
the world.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (53:40):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, and and thanks so muchfor having me.
It's been a blast.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (53:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Medical disclaimer.
This video or podcast is forgeneral informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine or other
professional healthcareservices, including the giving
of medical advice.
No doctor-patient relationshipis formed.
(54:05):
The use of this information andmaterials included is at the
user's own risk.
The content of this video orpodcast is not intended to be a
substitute for medical advice,diagnosis, or treatment, and
consumers of this informationshould seek the advice of a
medical professional for any andall health related issues.
A link to our full medicaldisclaimer is available in the
(54:28):
notes.
So we've had like m now multiple sports
teams across both genders andmultiple sports that after
implementing training, in manycases, drop down to zero head
and neck injury seasons thefollowing year.
But also pretty excitingly isso far in in I think every case
(00:23):
within three years of adoptingTopsten 360, they've gone on to
win their conferencechampionship.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (00:29):
Welcome to Life After Impact, the Concussion
Recovery Podcast.
I'm Dr.
Ayla Wolf, and I'll be hostingtoday's episode where we help
you navigate the oftenconfusing, frustrating, and
overwhelming journey ofconcussion and brain injury
recovery.
This podcast is your go-toresource for actionable
information, whether you'redealing with a recent
(00:50):
concussion, struggling withpost-concussion syndrome, or
just feeling stuck in yourhealing process.
In each episode, we dive deepinto the symptoms, testing,
treatments, and neurologicalinsights that can help you move
forward with clarity andconfidence.
We bring you leading experts inthe world of brain health,
functional neurology, andrehabilitation to share their
(01:12):
wisdom and strategies.
So if you're feeling lost,hopeless, or like no one
understands what you're goingthrough, know that you are not
alone.
This podcast can be your guideand partner in recovery, helping
you build a better life afterimpact.
Dr.
Theo Versteegh, thank you somuch for coming on to Life After
(01:34):
Impact.
Welcome.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (01:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (01:38):
Yeah, I'm so excited to learn more about this
device that you created.
In the world of concussions, Ithink you're one of the few
people who's really doing thingsto try to prevent them in the
first place.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about your background
and kind of how you started topspin technologies and this
device that you created?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (01:59):
Sure.
So I'm a physiotherapist bytraining.
I've been practicing uhpredominantly or almost
exclusively in sports medicine,I guess, for over 25 years now.
And um uh at the last clinic Iwas working at, I was one of the
one of two sport concussionspecialists.
My interest began back in 2011.
(02:20):
And it was, uh I don't know howmany of your kind of audience
are hockey fans, but uh SidneyCrosby had a uh very significant
concussion back in 2011 that uhended up keeping him out for
almost a year.
And it uh the idea spawnedwhere all good ideas come from,
which was uh at the bar afterplaying wreck hockey myself.
(02:42):
So after a few beers, when yousolve all the world's problems.
And uh and they're showing thatuh um like the injury um uh,
you know, uh the previous onethat four days later he was
re-injured.
And myself and my um uh I guessteammate from uh from hockey,
he was also my strength andaddition coach back when I
(03:04):
played football in university,and we got chatting, and that
hit, it was quite noticeable howhis head just whipped around
like it wasn't even attached tohis body.
And certainly back when Iplayed football, we had the, you
know, somewhat archaic, but thefour-way neck machine.
So you, you know, you pushforward, push back, and side to
side.
Yeah.
And you know, we got talkinglike, oh, if his neck was
(03:25):
stronger, his head wouldn't haveflown around like it was on a
bobblehead.
And uh, and that kind of got usthinking about um uh just kind
of neck strengthening ingeneral, and kind of brought
back to the you know, thefour-way neck machine.
And and with my physiobackground, um, I was thinking,
okay, like, well, that'llstrengthen it going forward,
back, side to side, but it'salso that kind of rotational uh
(03:46):
impact.
And further, it's also kind ofthat fast eccentric uh load, so
where the muscles arecontracting, but they're getting
longer, so they're absorbingthe load, they're not generating
the load.
And it's a very different typeof contraction that you you
can't really get with doing atraditional four-way neck
machine.
(04:07):
And so it got me thinking, youknow, as a as a physiotherapist
and kind of key components of ifyou were to train the neck to
protect and stabilize the headin space, what would that look
like?
And again, the the key thing isto strengthen the muscles
eccentrically, but concussionsare also very fast events, so
(04:28):
you're gonna have to kind of getkind of uh the speed of
contraction involved.
So you're focusing on um thefastest twitch muscle fibers,
which are the type 2 X fibers orthe type 2 B fibers, if you
plan on when you do yourtraining, and uh, which are
three times faster than the type2A fibers.
And traditional neckstrengthening, you end up
focusing on that, those type 2afibers, which are notably
(04:48):
slower.
Um and also, you know, the neckis an incredibly complex
neuromuscular system, and itdoesn't just move the head in
single planes of motion, kind offorward, back, side to side.
Like it is, we are constantly,you know, if you're playing
sports, your head's on a swivel,and it's that rotational
(05:09):
direction that's really key forstabilizing and protecting uh
against potential head and neckinjuries because we're we're
quite unstable statically inthat because uh we don't have
any structural stability toprevent rotation because it's
such a key movement that we'vegot to be able to do very
quickly and we can't have itrestricted.
At the same time, it ends upbeing very prone to injury for
(05:33):
that exact reason because youeither have mobility or you have
stability.
So, with that, kind of a a lotof kind of thoughts, and it's
like, well, that's a pretty tallorder of training in order to
uh to properly train the neck tostabilize the head in space.
Um, was playing around with fora few months, just kind of
different approaches and andconcepts.
And I just happened to havewith another kind of concept I
(05:55):
was uh uh working on, they whatended up being uh an axis on top
with a with a weight, and it uhkind of swung around.
And I was like, oh my God,that's this is exactly what I'm
trying to achieve.
And that was the inceptionpoint of what is now the Tosman
360.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (06:14):
Gotcha.
Well, everything you just saidmakes so much sense about
differentiating between fasttwitch fibers and slow twitch.
And obviously in in sports andyou know, I did a lot of martial
arts and I have a very long,thin neck that I probably lacked
the needed strength.
And so when I got punched inthe face, I mean there was a ton
of rotational forces, and thoseare coming at you very quickly.
(06:35):
Yeah, nobody's punching you inslow motion.
Absolutely.
It makes sense that you need totrain something and to actually
strengthen those fast twitchmuscles versus just those
machines that people go throughwhere it is a slow controlled
motion that maybe isn't theexact replica of what you need
when you're in a sport likeboxing or martial arts or
(06:56):
football or absolutely, becausethese are like ballistic,
high-impact movements andtraining slowly, isotonically in
a single direction, it doesn'ttranslate.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (07:08):
I mean, this uh, you know, for the strength
and additioning coaches in youraudience, it's the the said
principle.
So specific adaptations toimpose demand.
Um, just as in order to trainfor to be a world leader in
100-yard dash, you don't trainby running marathons.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (07:25):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (07:29):
And the other thing is it has to be
safe.
You know, when you're doing it,theoretically, you could, you
know, like just do lighter andlighter punches and just kind of
build up the strength of thepunch.
But what if you know theperson's fatigued and you go to
that next load, you're causingthe injury that you're trying to
prevent.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (07:45):
Yeah.
Okay, so I've seen pictures ofyour device.
It kind of looks like a helmetalmost with a little boom that
comes off of it, and that thatboom is weighted.
And so talk to me about kind ofwhat this looks like when
people are using it.
Uh, what types of movements arethey doing?
I saw a little video of youfolding some laundry, I think,
and using it while you'refolding laundry, multitasking at
(08:06):
its best.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (08:08):
Exactly.
So it's got a essentiallymounted axis, and uh it, you
know, as everything does thesedays, it has a an app.
So you turn the uh the helmeton and you pair it with the app
and it brings it to the thetraining page.
And so you know, I'm just gonnado uh demonstration, I'll kind
of walk you through what I'mdoing for those who are
(08:29):
listening.
But essentially it's acentrally mounted axis on the
apex of the helmet with a asmall weight that is free to
spin in the full 360 degrees.
And once you've kind of poppedthe helmet on securely fitted,
you press start, and then the atjust merely counts the
revolutions and it alsocalculates out the centripetal
(08:52):
force that's generated, which ismass times velocity squared
over r.
But it we're not justinterested in the force, we want
to know the rate of forcedevelopment.
So how quickly can that neckgenerating multiplanar
stabilizing force?
And that's really kind of themetric that we wanna that we
(09:14):
wanna know and quantify is ishow good is the neck at
stabilizing the the head in alldirections of motion.
So with that, it ends up beingforce divided by time, which is
rate of force development, so uhin pounds of force per second.
And then the app afterwardsshows you your best rate of
(09:35):
force development in a clockwiseand counterclockwise direction
in pounds of force per second.
So that is yeah, a directmeasure of the next multiplanar
dynamic neck strength andstability.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (10:59):
Okay, awesome.
So not only are you using it,but the app is tracking a lot of
different metrics to be able toshow improvement over time as
far as stability.
And now you're not necessarilymoving your head that much, but
you're moving it quickly.
That's right.
Yeah.
And then in terms of the, Iknow you've been doing some
(11:19):
research on this, and you'veactually found some incredible
outcomes in terms of sportsteams that are implementing
this.
And by the end of their season,like there's zero concussions.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (11:29):
Yeah.
It's it is funny.
So we've had like now multiplesports teams across both genders
and multiple sports that afterimplementing training, in many
cases drop down to zero head andneck injury seasons the
following year.
(11:50):
But also pretty excitingly, isso far in in I think every case
within three years of adoptingTopspin 360, they've gone on to
win their conferencechampionship.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (12:03):
Okay, so you're not just preventing concussions,
but somehow you're improvingsports performance.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (12:08):
It yeah, and it is like, and we've been
doing uh so looking at theactual statistics.
Because that was um uh, youknow, I I I did my PhD research
in the multiplane dynamic necktraining.
So uh, you know, unfortunatelyI had to do a bunch of
statistics and you learn how toanalyze that stuff.
And yeah, like I mean, theresults are really hard to argue
(12:30):
when you look at kind ofpre-Topspin and post-Topspin,
the the number of wins and thenthe the increase in
championship.
There's a three and a half foldincreased likelihood of winning
a championship afterimplementing Topspin compared to
before.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (12:45):
Well, that's a motivator for uh a team to adopt
this technology.
And how much time are peoplespending actually using the
device, like per day or perweek?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (12:55):
Yeah, so it's that's the other thing is
I'm very fond of the minimumeffective dose and uh and high
intensity interval training.
So it's two minutes of trainingtwice a week is the kind of the
studies that we've done, and uhquite dramatic and substantial
improvements.
Specifically, the outcomemeasure we've been doing is
(13:16):
multiplanar static neckstrength.
So we do just look at uhflexion, extension, right, left
side flexion, right, leftrotation strength.
And the average improvement inall of those directions, so
constant neck strength is 1%each two-minute training session
that they do.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (13:35):
Wow.
And so you're talking fourminutes a week.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (13:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (13:38):
Wow.
And so that's obviously verydoable.
And that also makes me thinkthat clinically, you you know,
you have a lot of people goinginto physical therapy clinics,
all kinds of clinics that aredoing different uh rehab and
sports performance.
And so that would also be veryeasy to implement in a clinical
setting, too, if you're simplyneeding someone to come in, you
know, all people are alreadycoming in twice a week.
(13:59):
You just add two minutes totheir uh session, and you could
have astronomical results interms of neck strength and
stability and preventing futureconcussions.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (14:09):
That's right.
Yeah, and it's uh it's provingvery effective at treating those
who are clinically symptomaticwith concussion, um, you know,
uh headaches, dizziness, um, uhpost-traumatic migraine, stuff
like that.
We've got a a study that thedata collection is done, the
analysis done, we're just in theprocess of writing up.
It was a randomized controltrial where we took persistent
(14:33):
post-concussion syndrome forgreater than four weeks
post-injury of 13-year-olds andabove.
So this is, you know, ifthere's a high risk population
that you're going to be timidabout experimenting on, it'd be
a 13-year-old girl who sufferssport-blade concussion who's
still suffering with headaches,you know, four weeks later.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (14:52):
And uh because the device is inherently
safe, you can't get it goingany faster than you are capable
of getting it spinning.
So whether that's whatever thelimiting factor is, whether it's
strength or neuromuscularcontrol or balance or
proprioception or coordination,it's a very small way.
It it will not spin on its own.
So it's kind of like a hulahoop.
(15:12):
If someone's really good athula hoop, it looks like they're
barely moving, the thing's justwhipping around them.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (15:17):
Right, right.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (15:18):
Can't do it.
You're like, I can't get thisthing up.
What's going on here?
Right?
And so it's it's uh it's asimilar kind of neuromuscular
pattern.
So it's inherently safe.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (15:27):
So this is a hula hoop for the head.
Yeah, pretty much.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (15:30):
That's right.
That's right.
And uh, and so with this study,it was a randomized control
trial and 29 in each arm, and itwas at least four weeks uh
post-injury.
On average, it was closer tothree months post-injury, which
is a critical window because atthat point, when you've had a
concussion and you've gone tolike every doctor,
physiotherapist, and oh yeah,it'll be better by you know
(15:51):
three months.
So, like, you know, that12-week mark, it'll be fine.
But then it gets to that12-week mark and they're not
fine, and there's a significantuptick in anxiety.
Like everyone is telling me I'dbe better by now and I'm not
better.
Like, what is going on?
So when we looked at it, theywere 72 days post-interest.
So they're getting close tothat danger zone, if you will.
And one group got standard ofcare, which was referral to
(16:13):
physiotherapy, and the othergroup got standard of care
referral to physiotherapy and uhTopspin 360 to take home, train
on it two minutes twice a weekfor eight weeks.
Uh at the end of the eightweeks, the the main, the primary
outcome measure was SCAT 5symptom scores.
Like where are you with all ofthese symptom profiles?
(16:34):
And I I know you're familiarwith the SCAT 5 and the
symptoms.
And the intervention group hadover 70% reduction in their SCAT
5 symptom scores, whereas thecontrol group actually had a 10%
increase.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (16:49):
Wow, that's a huge difference.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (16:51):
Huge difference.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (16:53):
That's so exciting.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (16:55):
Yeah, it it it's been it's been remarkable.
And then the other ones welooked at was uh the neck
disability index and theheadache disability index.
And both of those also improveddramatically, 35 and 40
percent.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (17:07):
So you're finding that even people who actively
have neck pain are able to usethis device and it's actually
improving their neck pain.
And uh so that uh because justwhen I watch you do it, you
know, it would seem like, oh, ifsomeone has neck pain, that
might create more neck pain, butyou're actually finding the
opposite.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (17:25):
Yeah.
And and again, because youknow, when I do it, I've I've
you know done it a few times.
So I can, you know, Denver'slike, whoa.
And someone with neck painlooks at and they're like,
there's no way I'm putting thatcrazy helmet on.
Like, no way.
And to be honest, that'sactually probably a leading
indicator that this will helpthem is when their visceral
(17:46):
response is, oh, there's no wayI'm putting that on.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (17:49):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And so there's a bit of alearning curve or a process of
getting familiar with the deviceand and and how to use it.
And I'm assuming, like youmentioned, you've used it a lot,
so you can do it and it looksgreat like you're an expert hula
hooper.
But when someone's startingout, you're finding their
velocity is maybe a lot slower.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (18:09):
A lot slower, yeah.
I mean, um, so the first timeaverage healthy adult female
puts it on is around, they'llgenerate around three to three
and a half pounds of force persecond.
And average healthy adult male,first time, you know, uh
completely novel to a no historyof head or neck injury, uh, is
around five, five and a halfpounds.
In my experience, uh, and evenwith that study, the average RFD
(18:34):
of someone who is, you know,chronic neck pain, chronic
headache, dizziness, migrainesufferer, um, they're less than
one pound of force.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (18:44):
Okay.
So you're kind of seeing whatsome of these initial metrics
look like when people arestarting out using the device
and then how that improves overtime.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (18:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's it's again quitedramatic.
And it's amazing how telling itis, like that initial value of
where they are from a uhneuromuscular cervical
perspective.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (19:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, amazing.
And then super exciting.
You actually won an award fromthe NFL, which was an athlete
health and safety award.
1100 companies basicallyapplied to get this award and
you guys won it.
So A, congrats.
Thank you.
B, tell me a little bit aboutyou know what that experience
(19:29):
was like and how that's helpedyou to maybe get into you know
more just more spaces and moreopportunities and more teams.
And because it sounds likeyou've just got this incredible
device that's making a hugedifference in these athletes'
lives.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (19:41):
It's been, it was really exciting.
So that was, I guess, back inum uh a few years ago now, like
2019.
And we applied for this, youknow, first and future uh
innovations to advance athletehealth and safety.
And there's 1,100 other kind ofthat applied for it.
And we got, I guess, top fivewith the applications.
So we were flown down toAtlanta where the Super Bowl was
that year, and uh, we got youknow some prep and and all this,
(20:03):
and we presented on theSaturday before the Super Bowl.
Um, and uh, you know, RogerGoodell was there and uh Larry
Fitzgerald and and the wholepanel and and kind of presented
to them.
And in the end, we ended up uhwinning.
So we got uh like $50,000 andtwo tickets to the Super Bowl.
Um yeah, and we're winners ofthe first and future word for
innovations to advance athletehealth and safety.
(20:24):
And yeah, it um timing couldhave been better because uh very
shortly after that, COVID hitand uh kind of shut everything
down.
Um but you know, now thatthings have opened back up,
yeah.
We got our kind of first NFLfootball team to fully adopt and
train the entire team, uh,which was uh the Detroit Lions a
couple years ago.
And they went on to have a zerohead and neck injury season
(20:46):
that year.
So it was really exciting.
And, you know, of note, theyalso went on to win their
conference championship for thefirst time in over 30 years.
They had the longest playoffwin drought in the NFL at that
time at 31 years.
The last time they won, theyhad Barry Sanders as their
running back.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (21:03):
So wow.
Okay.
So you might have had somethingto do with that.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (21:07):
It's you know, I'll tell you what, like,
you know, correlation's notcausation, but seems to hang out
with us, uh good things happen.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (21:15):
Yeah.
Well, gosh, I feel like all ofthe teams need to be uh piling
on and adopting this technology.
All right now, is this alsoavailable for just the average
person who's been in a caraccident, has had a neck injury,
concussion?
Like, can people purchase thisdevice for home use?
What is the distribution at themoment?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (21:35):
The a key thing to note, and this is um uh
like an advantage of it, isit's actually a piece of
exercise equipment.
So similar to a treadmill, andyou can use a treadmill to rehab
kind of post-concussion.
The treadmill is not a medicaldevice, but you can use it to
treat uh various conditions.
So we do um it is a piece ofexercise equipment.
(21:57):
Uh and again, the same kind ofuh qualifications, you know,
consult your healthcarepractitioner before embarking on
it.
Uh and in those cases, uh weend up um like with me as a
physiotherapist and uh and myPhD in it.
Generally the avenue we like totake is to train healthcare
practitioners how to use thisdevice as therapeutic exercise
(22:20):
to treat various conditions,just as you would, you know,
hey, you got a treadmill, let meshow you how to do the
concussion treadmill test.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (22:26):
Right.
Got it.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (22:28):
So there is um, you know, the option for
that.
And it's yeah, my clinicalfolks, although it's only
part-time, I focus on theessentially five, 10, sometimes
20-year history of of chronicwhiplash, chronic concussion,
um, chronic dizziness, uh,headaches, migraines.
And it's it is really quiteremarkable the results that
(22:53):
these long-standing uh patientswill see with doing some
appropriate neuromusculartraining of the neck.
Because in most cases, ifthey've done neck strengthening,
it's you know, grab a therabandand kind of push it this way or
that, um, or deep neck flexorand just kind of hold it there
indefinitely, uh, which doesn'ttranslate to how the neck
functionally works.
(23:15):
And in some cases, it can bedetrimental in other areas of
neuromuscular control.
So there's evidence that thattype of strengthening is
detrimental to proprioception,which is really key of what the
neck's role is with the body.
So the neck has the mostproprioceptive fibers in the
(23:36):
entire body, and that's not awaste of resources because
because we walk on two feet, weneed to know exactly where our
head is in minute detail inorder for us to not constantly
be tripping and falling on ourface.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (23:48):
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so right now you're hopingto essentially kind of get this
device into more clinical spacesin addition to like sports
teams and uh and then havepeople access it that way.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (24:04):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean, there are uh as Imentioned, the you know, people
can um uh it is a piece ofexercise equipment, but yeah, it
it's best because it's so noveland unique, like it's not
something, oh, I get it.
You put it on and you do this.
It's it's not intuitive at all.
Like there's there's literallynothing that you can compare to,
oh, it's just like doing this.
(24:25):
Nope.
It's it's not like anything.
So that's one thing that we'velearned is um because of the
steep learning curve for from arehab capacity, you know, again,
the ones that we can help themost are also the ones that are
most apprehensive about usingit.
So it it requires just kind ofyou know guidance and and just
proper assessment, clinicalassessment and and um you know
prescription on on how you'd usethis piece of exercise
(24:48):
equipment, just as any otherkind of therapeutic exercise
applied can pop.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (24:52):
Right.
Since uh many people fall intothe trap of thinking more is
better, uh, and you're sayingyou only need to do this two
minutes twice a week, thenthat's also kind of important
that maybe people aren't takingit and then doing it for 20
minutes every day.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (25:06):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, the two minutes I get onepercent, then I'll do it like
20 minutes and then I'll get10%.
And it's like, yeah, no, it'snot gonna work that way, you
know?
And it's it's it's funny howlike we're talking about this
and it seems common sense, butlike that is kind of what you
run into um with it.
So it's like, yeah, you do haveto be careful on how it's uh
how it's implemented.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (25:27):
Yeah, exactly.
And I mean, I've fallen uh intothat trap when those Vibram
five finger like running shoescame out, you know, over a
decade ago.
They're like, okay, you know,only go for like maybe half a
mile.
I popped those things on andwent for like a five-mile trail
run and gave myself Achillestendonitis.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (25:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, barefoot running, that'swhat you got to do.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (25:49):
Um, exactly.
Let's go barefoot run throughthe woods for five miles.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (25:54):
Like you know how much different is it
from running with shoes?
I know how to run.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (25:59):
So I could totally see myself popping this
helmet on and being like, allright, let's go.
Ten minutes.
Let's put it down.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (26:04):
Yeah, yeah.
It's uh yeah, that's exactlythe precaution.
unknown (26:10):
Yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (26:11):
Because it is something, you know, it's
exercise.
And if you overdo the exercise,you're gonna, you're gonna pay
the price, you know?
Like the body will get better,but it's you know, the late
onset muscle soreness is andespecially in the neck with
someone who suffers fromheadaches or migraines.
Um, if you go aggressively atit, it'll be like, oh, that
triggered my migraine.
Yeah, no kidding.
Like this is targeting theexact area that is the source of
(26:33):
your migraines, and you've justdrained it quite aggressively.
So yeah.
At the same time, it's alsoconfirmatory that this is what
this is targeting the tissuesthat are at fault.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (26:45):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Your your headaches are comingfrom your neck.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (26:52):
And uh so in addition to kind of seeing,
okay, so you've kind of talkedabout people are using this
device, they're actually seeingless headaches, less migraines,
less dizziness.
Um, I'm assuming improvedbalance as one of the markers
too.
Have you done any studiesspecifically look looking at
balance?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (27:12):
So I haven't, but there was a study
that was done at AcadiaUniversity using Tospin and in a
healthy group of universitystudents who you know you always
do your studies on, uh, theydid improve static standing
balance with training onTopspin.
And that's like it which again,clinically, that's what what
I've seen is because I all treatpeople with chronic dizziness
(27:35):
and you know, chronic headaches,chronic migraine.
The average reduction in withmy clinical population uh with
train on tospin is I use theheadache disability index as a
as a marker of their uh headachescore and kind of uh
impairment.
And the average reduction inheadache disability index is
over 50% after the first monthalone and about 75% after the
(27:56):
second month.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (27:58):
Wow, that's huge.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (27:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's again kind of twominutes of training.
With the with that where theykind of see me and have their
helmet, then it's um every otherday, because it's again, it's
only two minutes of training anduh if they have it with them.
You know, it's not like oh,I've got to drive across town to
put this helmet on for twominutes and drive back.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (28:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And are there anybody uh thatyou would say maybe isn't a good
fit for this, at least atcertain time points in their
recovery or based on whatthey're dealing with?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (28:26):
Yeah.
So basically anyone who is umlike I guess acutely unstable
neck.
So uh, you know, if it's ifit's immediately after uh a
whiplash and you haven't hadthat kind of you know ruled out
and cleared, uh if you've gotany active fractures at the
point.
And then the the one screeningtest we recommend is uh it's the
(28:49):
uh Spurling's compression test.
Um so essentially you put youknow about five pounds of force
through the spine, uh throughthe head and the neck.
And if they can't toleratethat, uh like the weight of the
helmet system is about fivepounds.
So you just, you know, that'swhere you do some kind of manual
therapy and uh you know, oracupuncture would like just to
settle that system down until itcan tolerate a bit of uh
(29:11):
compression load.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (29:12):
Okay.
Gotcha.
And then uh in terms of likeligament laxity, you mentioned
whiplash.
So if somebody does have a lotof cervical instability, a lot
of ligament laxity, um, can thisbe helpful?
Do they have to like do certainthings prior to working up to
it?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (29:27):
Yeah, and and no, and and the the reason
it's it's very helpful in thisin that like think about um you
know traditional ankle sprainwhere um if you uh you know,
grade three ATFL rupture.
So all of a sudden you've loststatic stability of the ankle.
Uh you're not gonna get surgeryon that particular ligament.
(29:49):
It's the most common one to bekind of fully ruptured.
But what you are gonna do isrehab it by not just
strengthening the muscles.
Like you're not gonna get thereby doing green theraband
inversion and eversion, right?
You've got to dynamically trainthose muscles to restore the
function that you've now loststatically, dynamically.
So the muscles now have tocompensate for that lack of
(30:12):
structural stability withdynamic stability.
So with with uh you know uhmost rehab exercises, you'll be,
you'll be doing progressivelymore challenging balance.
So, you know, standing on onefoot solid ground, then on like
a BOSU or a um like a foam Airex or something like that, and
then getting into some uh likehops, two-legged hops and then
(30:33):
single-legged, and you start todynamically load those tissues
in order to normalize it and toget it to compensate.
And that's where if you rehabit properly, then even though
they no longer have thatstructural stability, that
static stability, they arecompletely pain free and they're
able to do all of theiractivities from before because
(30:55):
they've retrained the brain toget the proprioceptive inputs
from the muscles, no longer fromthe the ligament that would
tell them when it's on stretch.
So the same thing applies forthe neck is if you've got
ligamentous laxity, um then.
Retrain the muscles around itto compensate and to
essentially, yeah, compensatefor that.
(31:17):
And uh and you can bring it upback to that level.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (31:20):
Incredible.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (31:22):
Yeah, it's been uh it's been exciting.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh so what are you seeingnext?
Like, do you have uh futureresearch you want to do?
Are you just at this point kindof trying to raise awareness
and get uh hopefully more teamsto adopt this as a concussion
prevention strategy?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (31:38):
Yeah, I mean, uh ideally, certainly as
uh, you know, imp increased uhinjury resilience and um and
even you know performanceenhancement because it's also uh
the neck is a uh kind of thelast frontier of uh performance
hands.
We every everyone's got leg dayand everyone does, you know,
chest and back, right?
But what's your neck day?
You know?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (31:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (31:58):
And and trying to kind of bring that
into the mainstream so thatpeople appreciate that actually
this plays a real significantrole in sport performance
because uh the more dynamicallystable you are, the better
you're gonna be able to see thefield and awareness of where
your body is in relationship toother opponents or like the
ball, the puck, the whateverobject that you're playing with.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (32:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The other guy's fist.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (32:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, exactly.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (32:25):
Yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (32:26):
Being able to absorb that.
Like that's yeah, certainly abig role in MMA or boxing
because like every impact to thehead is a high impact, fast you
know, um movement that you'vegot to be able to dynamically
stabilizing it.
So it's the nice thing isagain, it gives you an actual
metric value as to how stable,dynamically stable your neck is.
(32:49):
And the higher it is, the yeah,the the more resilient you are
to those impacts.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (32:54):
Yeah.
I mean, I remember learning howto snowboard.
And when you're learning how tosnowboard, you constantly are
like falling backwards andfalling forwards, and then you
wake up the next day and yourSCMs are just on fire.
And I mean, you feel likeyou're in a corner.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (33:08):
Yeah.
Uh commonly a mild headache,right?
And it's like, oh man, yeah,catching the zero edge on a on
like hard packed.
Oh.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (33:16):
Exactly.
And even when you think aboutagain, like your head, you're
you're, you know, crashing, yourhead is going back pretty
quickly.
Like those are those are prettyhigh velocity whiplashes you
can get when you crash uhsnowboarding, wakeboarding, all
all of those, all of the sportsI used to do all the time,
right?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (33:33):
Yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
And uh oh, I mean, it'sinteresting because uh like even
for me, I've got a uh11-year-old son who wanted to
play, he was playing flagfootball and then he wanted to
play contact football.
And I said, um, yeah, that'sfine, but not until you get to a
safe level on on my helmet.
And uh and sure enough, he did,and now he's he's playing
contact.
And oh, it's for me, it's it'speace of mind that like, you
(33:57):
know what?
Yeah, he he even if he does,it's not gonna make him
concussion proof, but even if hedoes, he'll be resilient enough
that it's not gonna be like, ohmy God, you're gonna lose the
next year of academic and you'regonna be, you know, uh feeling
like you need a dark room.
And everyone's like, nope, I'mpretty solid that you'll uh
you'll bounce back.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (34:17):
Yeah, yeah.
That's amazing.
This idea of you can have peaceof mind if you've got uh
yourself or your kids in sportsand you just want to know
they're gonna be safe andprotected.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (34:26):
And yeah.
Yeah, so that's been uhcertainly a big part.
But yeah, I know because you'vegot a a history with uh
essentially martial arts and andum I mean jujitsu is certainly
one where kind of learning tofall would be uh would be key,
but also kickboxing, like yeah,I mean you you've got a long
neck and just a beautiful littletarget.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (34:46):
That's uh exactly.
Yeah, but I have a long leverthere for uh my brain to get
rattled.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Right?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (34:52):
Yeah.
Well, and in jujitsu, you know,you're getting choked out too.
There's a lot of neck trauma.
And uh there's I mean, peoplein jujitsu generally do have
very strong necks because theyare often on their back, but
they're holding their head up asthey're moving around.
And so um, you know, I thinkjujitsu inherently does promote
good neck strength, but to havethat really quick, like you
(35:13):
said, the fast twitch musclesalso getting strengthened and
being able to stabilize in themoment, I could see that as a
huge benefit too.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (35:23):
Gosh, well, that's amazing.
Your app that is uh associatedwith the device is basically
measuring like the velocity, therotations, it's it's tracking
people over time.
So like somebody has an accountthat actually shows their their
improvements.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (35:37):
Yeah.
It uh time and date stamps, allthe training sessions, so you
can very kind of quickly gothrough and you can track your
progress uh over time.
And and the other neat thing isthat um it'll also like if you
are, you know, like, oh geez, Iwas kind of flared up or had a
cold or whatever, you'll you'llsee your scores drop uh in
relationship to that because itis kind of quite sensitive to
(35:59):
kind of how you're feeling uhthat day, your energy levels,
and um, yeah.
And I mean, if you've got somekind of late onset muscle
soreness, it's gonna kind ofslow you down a bit.
Uh so it is really kind of neatto see uh people kind of
progress.
Generally, they do improvequite, you know, almost linearly
within uh within reason, butyou will see variations just on
(36:20):
uh somewhat day-to-day on on howthey're feeling.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (36:24):
Okay.
Amazing.
So it's almost like asensitive, like a heart rate
variability is it can detectsubtle changes in how you're
feeling that day.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (36:32):
Exactly.
Yeah, and especially and alsoif um like we've got uh kind of
a case with um uh before a avolleyball player trained
herself up to a very kind ofstable level and then took a
huge shot off the head.
Um, you know, and everyonethought she got her hands up,
it's like, oh no, that beat meright off the face.
So the coach was like, okay,well, we've got test you for a
(36:54):
concussion.
I'm like, no, I'm fine, I'mfine.
Took her out, test for she wasfine.
She cleared it, she went backinto the game, finished the
game.
Coach followed, like, you sureyou're fine?
Yeah, like, no, well, what'sthe big deal?
Two days later, when she wenton her top swing, her top swin
score dropped significantly.
And then, like a couple dayslater, she was back up into her
regular training uh kind ofrange.
(37:17):
But it just goes to show thatno, actually, her neck absorbed
all of that and is gonna needkind of a couple days to to
recover.
Then she'll be fine.
Now, had she played anothergame on that second day and took
another hit to the head,chances are she she would have
been concussed, right?
Because on that second day, herscore on the toss one would
(37:38):
have flagged her as higher risk.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (37:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I had uh kind ofI'd given myself a concussion in
March of this year.
But what's was interesting wasthat the I was bending down to
unplug something and I stoodback up and there was a uh a
cabinet door that was open.
And so I smacked the top of myhead really hard into the
cabinet door.
(38:01):
The funny thing is that I haddone the exact same thing, like
either the month or two before.
So I had done the exact samething four to six weeks ago, and
I was fine.
But the second time I did it,it was immediately dizziness,
nausea, headache, blurry vision.
So yeah, it's that idea oflike, you know, you did
(38:21):
something once, you might beokay, but the same thing happens
shortly after, and your body'slike, okay.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (38:27):
Yeah, that's right.
And actually, it's interestingbecause that's also what I think
happened it with Sidney Crosby,because like when he took that
impact, like, you know, oh, itwas it can cost her neck injury.
But you see, it's like, ooh,that was a pretty significant
injury.
And then he seemed to be fine.
He was back in uh like fourdays later, and then his the
next hit was into the boards.
(38:47):
You look at it, you're like,really?
That kept him out for almost ayear?
No.
The first injury took away allhis defenses, and then he's like
just going around completelyprone and uh and open.
And that's what taking him outthe second time.
Yeah, now you're dealing with alot of stuff you've got to, you
know, rehab before you can getback to the game.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (39:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Did you know my mentor, Dr.
Carrick, was one of the peoplewho was very instrumental in
getting Sid Crosby over thatconcussion and back in the game?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (39:17):
I did know, yeah.
Yeah, that was pretty exciting.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, he's incredible.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (39:23):
And so with your, because obviously you've
kind of come round to focusingpredominantly on on concussion
and the return.
And the majority of that isfrom your own kind of personal
journey.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (39:35):
Um, I mean, initially when I started out, I
focused on fertility, yes.
And so the first seven, eightyears I was in practice, I was
doing women's health, fertility,hormones.
During that time, I did rack upa lot of my own concussions.
And so that's what led me tostart studying functional
neurology through the CarrrickInstitute, go back to school,
get my doctorate degree where Iwas studying traumatic brain
(39:57):
injuries.
And so, yeah, that that was allkind of my journey to heal my
own brain and then recognizethat things like herbs and
supplements only really get youa certain way.
And then you really need theactive neuro rehab.
Like that's so important.
And so that really led me to uhtrying to just get the word out
(40:19):
there to more people who are,you know, running into
roadblocks in medicine.
Uh and so yeah, I've just onceI've fixed my own brain, uh, and
then you know, when I got thatconcussion in March, because I
knew what to do, 10 days later,I was pretty much symptom-free
again.
So to say that my on my 10thconcussion that I healed in 10
(40:40):
days, I think is a testament tothe fact that when you know what
to do and you do it right away,you can get better and you
know, your brain can recoverwhen you give it the right, the
right things.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (40:52):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And it it's yeah, you'reexactly right.
Because normally, kind of witheach subsequent concussion,
there's a much higher risk of itbeing a prolonged process.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (41:03):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I worked with a uhcompetitive half pipe
snowboarder, and she said thatshe had been doing that for 13
years.
And she's like, Yeah, prettymuch once a season I probably
get a concussion.
I mean, it's just these thingsare so much more common, and
people, I think, always hopethat if they get it, they can
just walk it off and be okay.
(41:24):
But the idea that there'sthings that we can do to prevent
them and prevent the severityof them, uh so important.
We need I just feel like uhbased on what I'm hearing, like
every single sports team needsone of these helmets.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (41:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it's it yeah.
I mean, the the results thatwe're seeing, it's just it's
mind-boggling.
But it's also kind of likeselling insurance, right?
You know, it's just likeprevention is is surprisingly,
it's a it's a tough sell becauseyou're like, ah, no, I think we
were okay with uh, we didn'thave that many you know
concussions last year.
They almost don't want to, youknow, admit to it.
(41:59):
It's like, oh, okay.
Right.
But you know, the performanceenhancement side uh is uh is you
know quite beneficial.
So we'll probably focus on thatwith the uh with the Top Sun
360.
Um and then you know, more withthe the rehab side, um uh using
therapeutic exercise to totreat and uh kind of enhance
(42:19):
that.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:20):
It's almost like the concussion concussion
prevention is the added bonus toenhancing your performance.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:26):
You're right.
Yep, totally improved injuryresilience, and you know,
chances are your team's gonnawin your championship.
Really?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:33):
Right, right?
Yep, that makes it easier tosell right there.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:36):
It does.
Absolutely.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:38):
Awesome.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:39):
Uh predominantly the journey.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (42:40):
Are you making these helmets in different
sizes?
I mean, like I know my nephew,when he was eight, needed adult
helmets because he had a hugehead, but that's not all kids'
cases.
So do you have it in differentsizes?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (42:53):
We do.
So we've got small, medium,large, and extra large.
And uh like a medium and alarge will generally cover about
80% of the population, and thenuh extra large, obviously for
the kind of larger individuals,and then uh small for you know
the the either uh usually kindof petite females or the
pediatric um population.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (43:13):
Okay.
Excellent.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (43:14):
Yeah, and with sorry, with uh you asked
about uh research.
So we do have um like if youGoogle Topspin360 and the Mayo
Clinic, like they're currentlydoing a research study looking
at uh uh uh injury prevention inuh hockey players, competitive
hockey players.
And uh so we've got, yeah, kindof a a few other kind of
studies, one in uh in Calgarylooking at incorporating Topspin
(43:39):
with uh other approaches forconcussion and uh lower
extremity injury risk reduction.
And so far the preliminaryresults are quite dramatic and
and encouraging for sure.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (43:50):
Yeah, that's so exciting.
Well, I can't wait to stay ontop of the research, see what
else is coming out.
And then why don't you letpeople know where they can find
you, more information about thedevice if they're interested in
bringing that into their clinicor their sports team.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (44:06):
Sure.
So with uh with the device,it'd be Topspin360.com is like
our website to learn more aboutme.
Probably the easiest would beon LinkedIn.
So Theo Versteegh on LinkedIn,and uh and then they can
subscribe to my newsletter,Necks to Impossible.
So uh uh we'll talk about theneck.
And then neckrevolution.com iswhere I talk more about the the
(44:29):
rehab side um and like the theconsultancy for people who are
struggling.
The the nice thing that'sreally rewarding for me is that
because the patient population Ideal with are five, 10 years
out, in pretty much every case,when they get to me, they've
seen everyone under the sun,which makes it really easy
(44:50):
because if they haven't gottenbetter with seeing these often
20 plus practitioners, it makesme more confident that I can get
them better because if it wasanything else, the one of the
other 20 practitioners wouldhave found it and treated it and
they'd be better by now.
So the it's a bit of a yeah,kind of I guess litmus test is
(45:12):
is how many people they've seenfor it.
And the more people they'veseen, the more confident I am
that I can get them betterbecause this is the one thing
that no one else is able to doright now.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (45:23):
Right, right.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (45:24):
It's it's it's been a quite rewarding.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (45:26):
Yeah, you've got the the missing link there.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (45:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (45:30):
So talk a little bit more about your clinical
practice.
Um, are you seeing primarilypeople with post-concussion
syndrome?
Is that kind of the basis ofyour patient population?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (45:40):
Yeah, long-standing, like I said, uh
generally, I think the earliestuh the average is definitely
five to eight years post-injury.
Um many cases kind of 10 to 15years.
And the other ones, you know,that I find great results with
(46:00):
are those who have specificallypost-traumatic headache or andor
migraine, and the ones who arebeing treated with who get some
relief from Botox injections.
And the reason being is thatfor when you're doing
injections, Botox injections forthe treatment of headache
and or migraine, where theyfocus on is the neck.
(46:24):
And they end up like it's Imean, it's just I I hope to God
in you know, many years peoplewill look back and and compare
injecting Botox to treatmigraine as leeches.
Like in in what like literallyit's they shortened it to Botox
(46:45):
because it's botulin toxin.
And they are literallyinjecting it to kill the nerve
and the muscle.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (46:53):
Yeah.
And then people go inindefinitely every three months
to do it.
So I'm like clearly the it'snot fixing the problem if you
have to go in every threemonths.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (47:02):
Because the body, each time you do it,
you're like, and then it's like,okay, I guess we're regrowing
these again.
Uh why do you keep killingthem, right?
And then it's like, oh, it'scoming back.
Oh, we'll kill them again.
What?
Yeah.
So I've got uh several caseswith um uh yeah, uh three so far
that um uh it actually like inall three cases where there were
(47:25):
years of Botox injections, theyare completely off of Botox.
And like to quote one, it's asif the accident never happened.
And again, it's because, yeah,as opposed to, you know, killing
the thing that's causing youthe symptoms because it's
telling you something's wrong,why don't you try fixing what's
wrong?
And oh wow, all of a sudden nowyou don't need Botox anymore.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (47:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I use a uh a pulsedradio frequency kind of
peripheral nerve stimulator totry to help restore health to
those the greater occipitalnerve, less occipital nerve.
But to be able to pair thatwith the actual neck
strengthening component, it'slike, oh, now I feel like I can
knock this out of the park.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (48:05):
Honestly, you would, it would completely
change and improve like thatdemographic that you're using
that on because where theoccipital nerve comes out of,
it's it's essentially the topvertebrae comes from behind.
And if you've got unstablethere and you're constantly kind
of hammering on it because youdon't have that dynamic movement
properly with the neck, yourestore that.
(48:27):
You take that every now andthen pressure off the occipital
nerve.
Oh, wow, hey, their migraineshave gone away.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (48:35):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that makes so much sense.
And and definitely I have thepatient population where they'd
probably look at that helmet andgo, nope.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (48:42):
Nope, there's no way.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, oh, perfect.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah, I'd be happy ifyou want to even uh play around
with the uh case study and justdo before and after, and it'll
be like you'll see the resultsin, like I said, uh after the
first month is usually about50%.
After the second month, it'sabout 75% on that headache kind
(49:02):
of population, especially thoseones that have that history of
uh Botox.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (49:08):
Yeah.
Well, and you know, so manyclinicians if who work with this
patient population, if they'rebeing super honest, will
absolutely tell you that thosepost-traumatic headaches can be
so stubborn.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (49:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (49:20):
And like you're saying, I mean, people are
coming to you eight to 15 yearsafter their concussion and still
symptomatic.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (49:26):
Yeah.
Exactly.
And it and it's still, youknow, at the point of daily
headaches and daily, you know, Ihad a one who was um, she was
saying that after treatment, shedidn't realize how much time
and effort it was taking tomanage her symptoms.
Like it was like a part-timejob because, you know, like, oh,
(49:46):
hey, do you want to go out thisFriday?
It was Wednesday.
It's like, I have no idea whatFriday is gonna be like.
Like, if it was today, I'd beokay.
I don't know what Thursday andFriday are gonna bring.
So yeah, let's pencil that in,you know?
Dr. Ayla Wolf (50:00):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that chronic pain, it justrobs you.
I mean, I I had to have afusion on my lumbar spine, but
for seven and a half years, Ihad daily chronic, horrible low
back pain from the age of like28 to 35.
And that just robbed me of someof like the best years of my
life where every single thing Idid was painful.
(50:21):
Yeah.
And so I just I feel, you know,my heart goes out to people who
have chronic pain because it,it, it's hard to just be at ease
in the world.
You know, it just takes so muchaway from you.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (50:31):
Oh, yeah, I agree.
And and the other challengingthing is that I find a lot of
chronic pain kind of researchand direction, specifically with
with neck pain, is because, youknow, until now there haven't
been effective treatmentapproaches for it.
A lot of it has been reframingblaming the patient in that like
(50:55):
it's um, you know, even withthe explain pain, it's like, oh,
well, you know, it's, you know,we look at it, there's nothing
wrong.
You turn your head here and itcauses pain.
It's because your like painfibers have been hypersensitive
and it's not actually dangerous,but it's just telling you that
it is.
So we've got to retrain that tolet it learn that it's not.
(51:16):
It's like, no, when you turnit, it hurts, it's causing pain.
That's the problem.
Retrain so that it doesn'tcause pain when they do that
anymore.
And like, you know, I've gotevidence that you can do that.
And if you just objectivelymeasure their multiplanar range
of motion, see where that sitscompared to healthy adult male
(51:36):
or female averages, and thenmultiplanar static neck strength
and see where that is, treatit, get those better, and
miraculously their symptomsimprove too.
So it's just you're yeah, treatthe right things.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (51:51):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's I think a huge whatyou just mentioned about like pa
patients.
Um the last thing you want todo is make them feel guilty or
blame them for their experiencewhen they don't want this.
They're not asking for this,they just want their life back.
So exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (52:08):
And just uh, you know, saying that, oh, it's
because you know, you're you'vegot hypersensitive pain fibers.
It's like, no, there'ssomething that's pinching that's
causing the pain that like it'snot hypersensitive, it's it's
cause that's what is there foris to tell me when I'm doing
something that's causing pain.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (52:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Man, well, gosh, I'm so excitedfor for you, for this device,
for the world to be able to havethe device.
Uh so I will put all of thatinformation in the show notes.
Is there anything we haven'ttalked about yet that you want
to share or anything excitingthat's coming up?
Dr. Theo Versteegh (52:44):
I think that I think we've uh touched on
everything that I can think ofuh off the top of my head.
But yeah, I mean it it'd be uhlike for you if you with your
target population, happy to lookat doing a uh kind of a case
study of it and see where itgoes because it's yeah.
It is it's really quiteremarkable.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (53:04):
I have I have so many people who I think could
benefit from this.
So and I I've been wanting tofigure out like how do I bring a
strength-building componentinto my practice without just
referring people to the clinicdown the road that has the
machines that do this and dothat.
And yeah, so yeah.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (53:21):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
We should uh this works.
We'll talk.
We'll uh get you sorted.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (53:28):
Love it, love it.
Okay, well, thank you so, somuch for coming on the show.
I can't wait to share thisepisode with everybody.
Very, very grateful that youcame with this device, but
congratulations on winning thataward and getting this out into
the world.
Dr. Theo Versteegh (53:40):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, and and thanks so muchfor having me.
It's been a blast.
Dr. Ayla Wolf (53:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Medical disclaimer.
This video or podcast is forgeneral informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine or other
professional healthcareservices, including the giving
of medical advice.
No doctor-patient relationshipis formed.
(54:05):
The use of this information andmaterials included is at the
user's own risk.
The content of this video orpodcast is not intended to be a
substitute for medical advice,diagnosis, or treatment, and
consumers of this informationshould seek the advice of a
medical professional for any andall health related issues.
A link to our full medicaldisclaimer is available in the
(54:28):
notes.
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