April 14, 2025 • 40 mins
Dr. Wilkerson walks us through the science of photobiomodulation. PBM can decrease inflammation, increase blood flow to treated areas, and improves cellular function by promoting energy production.
• Photobiomodulation is the umbrella term for using light to change cellular function
• Lasers work faster for pain relief, while LEDs are safer for home use
• Red light therapy has been used in veterinary medicine since the 1970s
• Transcranial photobiomodulation devices like VieLight use different pulse frequencies to target specific brain states
• The gamma setting (40Hz) improves cognitive function and focus
• The alpha setting (10Hz) promotes relaxation and healing
• Device quality and specifications matter – therapeutic benefits depend on proper wavelength, power, and design
• Different devices work better for different conditions
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This podcast is separate and unaffiliated from Sophia Bouwen's work and employment at the Health Partners Neuroscience Center.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Nitric oxide will slow down your mitochondria's
ability to produce ATP.
So you free that up.
Awesome, it's producing energymore effectively.
Then what happens when nitricoxide hits your bloodstream?
It causes vasodilation.
Your blood vessels dilate.
It increases blood flow to thearea, reduces inflammation and
(00:23):
pain.
Right, so you're healing fasterand your cells producing energy
more efficiently.
So it does its job better,which in turn, also helps you
heal faster.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to Life After Impact, the concussion recovery
podcast.
I'm Dr Ayla Wolf and I will behosting today's episode, where
we help you navigate the oftenconfusing, frustrating and
overwhelming journey ofconcussion and brain injury
recovery.
This podcast is your go-toresource for actionable
information, whether you'redealing with a recent concussion
(00:57):
, struggling withpost-concussion syndrome or just
feeling stuck in your healingprocess.
In each episode, we dive deepinto the symptoms, testing,
treatments and neurologicalinsights that can help you move
forward with clarity andconfidence.
We bring you leading experts inthe world of brain health,
functional neurology andrehabilitation to share their
(01:19):
wisdom and strategies.
So if you're feeling lost,hopeless or like no one
understands what you're goingthrough, know that you are not
alone.
This podcast can be your guideand partner in recovery, helping
you build a better life afterimpact.
Today on the Life After Impactpodcast, we have Dr Caroline
(01:41):
Wilkerson here to talk to usabout.
We have Dr Caroline Wilkersonhere to talk to us about
photobiomodulation, the use ofred light therapy for helping
the brain heal and recover fromconcussions and brain injuries.
So I'm so excited to have youon the show.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's an honor to come on yourpodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, let's dive a little bit into your history.
You have such an eclecticbackground, which I love, I do.
You were in Naval Intelligenceyes, for a while.
You speak Russian, mandarin andEnglish, that's correct, and
(02:20):
you are a doctor of acupunctureand Chinese medicine, and you
worked for a number of years inclinical practice at the Jesse
Brown VA Center in Chicago andthen transitioned into the
administration as the chief ofpatient experience, where you
worked so hard to actuallyimprove veterans experience of
being a patient at Jesse Brownyes, which is incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Thank you.
It was a passion project Closeto my soul.
I've never done any morechallenging work in my life, but
it was.
It was really worth it.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Good, it was an honor to serve again such a unique
combination of skills andperspectives from being on both
sides of the equation, or allsides of the equation, and so I
love that about you thatwhatever project you're tackling
, you're able to look at it frommultiple perspectives.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, and then you are currently the VP of
government relations at patientpoint, which is a health
education and communicationcompany, and you were the
co-founder of a distributor oflight therapy devices.
Yes, and this is why I have youon the show today is because you
(03:39):
were actually selling lighttherapy devices from different
companies, which meant that youdid a ton of research on all the
different devices that are outthere to say which devices are
actually of therapeutic quality,and you were able to then
explain that to people and bringthat to you know commercial use
for clinical practice, forretail, and so in the process of
(04:00):
doing that, you have becomekind of an expert and a wealth
of information on red lighttherapy.
So thanks for being here and I'mhoping that you can shed some
light on everybody's confusionaround what is this and how do I
even go about potentiallyfinding a device to use, whether
that is a you know, a medicalprofessional in a clinical
(04:21):
practice or just somebody whowants to use it at home to help
in healing from their concussion.
So let's start out by havingyou talk a little bit about the
terms.
We hear the termphotobiomodulation.
Some of these terms that aremaybe now a little bit more
outdated are things like coldlaser or low level laser.
We now know that there'sdifferences between laser
(04:44):
devices and LED and there'sdifferent price point
differences, so let's talk aboutthe terms and maybe just
explain the difference betweenall of those.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, so photobiomodulation it's a newer
term, it's a big umbrella termfor any time that you use light
to change how your cellsfunction, that you use light to
change how your cells function.
So red light therapy, nearinfrared light therapy, infrared
therapy, green light, you know.
(05:13):
Blue light, all the beautylights that you, you know.
Face lights that you see, thosemasks that have multiple colors
.
That's all photobiomodulation.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And then people are even using UV light to help
whiten their teeth.
Yes, I know, there's evendevices out there where you
literally plug it into yourphone and your phone powers it,
and then you just stick thesethings in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, you just bite on the yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's wild.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Also, there's a lot of people doing syntonics, which
is essentially a form ofphotobiomodulation that helps
with visual symptoms andautonomic functioning.
You know we have this saying oflike looking through the world
through rose colored glasses,and I find that such a
fascinating saying because Ihave all these different colored
glasses in my clinic and whenpeople come in with post
(05:58):
traumatic headaches, a lot oftimes I'll have them play around
with putting on all thesedifferent colored lenses to find
which lens actually makes youfeel the most calm or makes it
so that the fluorescent lightsare not so irritating to your
system, or it's like which lensactually makes you feel more
relaxed.
And for me, whenever I playaround with them, it's always
(06:20):
the rose colored glasses thatI'm like.
I'm just going to wear thesefor a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Oh, I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
And I so literally looking through the at the world
through rose colored lensesactually calms down my system.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's great.
Yeah, I'm a I'm a green greengirl.
I love green for calming yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
A lot of people with migraines seem to really like
having the green glasses, too,seem to really like having the
green glasses too.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, it helps just relax the mind and the body.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
So Okay, so we have this umbrella term,
photobiomodulation, that can beapplied to not only different
light therapy devices, but likelenses and whitening the teeth
and all these different things,and then we have these terms
laser versus LED.
So let's talk about that next.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, so you know lasers are.
The use of laser in most statesis restricted to medical
professionals.
Right, because lasers can causeharm.
Period.
You can damage the eyes with aclass three laser.
You can damage actual tissuewith a class four laser.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So how these devices are manufactured and what
they're capable of is differentfrom company to company and
device to device.
Yes, and so that is, I think,where you really did a lot of
research in saying there may bea lot of devices out there that
are not so therapeutic orthey're just kind of junk, and
then there's devices, whetherthey are LED or laser, that
(07:49):
actually do.
They were well made, they weremade with a lot of science
behind them and they actually dohave therapeutic value.
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, and then also withinlasers, there's different, like
you mentioned.
There's class three lasers,there's class four lasers, and
(08:11):
so that is really also kind ofhow they're being used medically
and versus, say, a class onelaser is something you might see
with, like a cat toy or a CDplayer has has a laser in it.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yes, yes, so that's, you're looking at class one,
class two lasers there and thenwhen you get to the, when you
get to the class three, coldlaser, most of the devices that
I like for clinical use myselfare class threes because you
don't have the opportunity todamage the tissue there
potentially and it's a veryquick treatment and especially
(08:41):
when somebody has pain,especially acute pain, it
ameliorates it really quickly ina way that you don't get from
the LED.
And then the class four laser.
There's a section of class fourlasers that are still
considered cold lasers, like a Klaser.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And they use that at your barn.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You're an equestrian, yes yes, I'm a horse girl.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And so the horses are getting a class 4 K-laser to
help with just muscle sorenessor also.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Injury.
Repair, you know, if they cuttheir leg on a fence and we need
to, you know.
Heal the skin, close the woundfaster, even damage to tendons.
I mean, I've seen horses thatpeople were pretty sure they
were going to have to put downdue to injury be saved by a
(09:34):
combination of brilliant rehabspecialists, amazing vets and
K-Laser.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Amazing, yeah, awesome.
And I know that lasers havebeen used a lot in veterinary
medicine long before they becamepopular for humans, but we'll
get to that in a minute.
Yeah, okay, so we've talkedabout this umbrella term,
photobiomodulation.
Then we have lasers and we haveLEDs.
Lasers are often kind of seenmore in the medical world
(10:03):
because there is that potentialfor damage if it is used
incorrectly, whereas LED is moresafe for home use because it
has less of a potential toactually damage skin or cause
harm if someone is using itincorrectly.
It's harder to use themincorrectly, I guess.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes, I mean you still , if you're, you know, treating
the face you, depending on howmuch power those LEDs are
putting out, you may still wantto wear those tanning goggles
over your eyes.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Well, sometimes those lights are just really bright
too yeah.
It's nice to just have some eyeprotection on Agreed, yeah, and
a lot of the home devices alsoare very user-friendly in the
sense that it's on a timer.
You kind of just hit start andit's on.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
You know, it turns itself off.
Set it and forget it.
Set it and forget it.
It's great, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Great.
And then let's talk a littlebit about how it works, because
every day in my practice I'musing red light therapy and so
every single day, my patientsask me what is this doing?
And so I know, like your firstexperience of it, you were
shadowing somebody in the clinicthey pull out this, what looks
like a red flashlight, andyou're like what on earth are
(11:14):
you doing?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Oh, absolutely, I was totally skeptical.
I'm like here's this woman Ihave so much respect for as a
clinician and she's shining ared flashlight on people like
how does that make people feelbetter?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I you know and well, and these little red flashlights
are actually like seventhousand dollars or more, you
know, and so they look likethese kind of harmless things
because it's just a handheldlittle tool, but it's actually.
There's a lot of power in thisthing.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
A ton of power, a ton of research that goes into them
before they can even hit themarket.
And so I started after I sawthe red flashlight that I was
very skeptical of.
I'm like, okay, I'm going tosee if there's something to this
.
And I did a ton of research.
At that time there were over4,500 articles on PubMed that
(12:02):
were published that on myriad ofdifferent conditions that were
showing a therapeutic benefitfor laser and LED, and I was
astounded and then I'm like,okay, exactly how does this work
?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, okay, so let's talk about that, cause that's
the big question here, and youknow, usually we um, you know,
go right back down to thebeginnings of how does our body
work right?
And in order for our body towork, we have mitochondria in
every single cell, and thosemitochondria are the powerhouses
(12:40):
of our cell.
They're the ones that makeenergy, and so much of the most
cutting edge research these daysis focused on mitochondrial
health, and I think that's wherepeople are really being able to
point to red light therapy.
To say like this is somethingthat really helps, but why don't
you get into like the realnitty gritty of what it's doing?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So what happens when red and near infrared light, in
particular wavelengths, hitsyour cells?
It knocks the oxidative stressout of the cell, the nitric
oxide, and forces the cell torelease that back into the
bloodstream.
So nitric oxide will slow downyour mitochondria's ability to
(13:26):
produce ATP.
So you free that up Awesome,it's producing energy more
effectively.
Then what happens when nitricoxide hits your bloodstream?
It causes vasodilation.
Your blood vessels dilate.
It increases blood flow to thearea, reduces inflammation and
pain right, so you're healingfaster and your cells producing
(13:49):
energy more efficiently.
So it does its job better,which in turn, also helps you
heal faster.
Okay, great, you're basicallysupercharging your body, right?
So we really are batteries weare.
Yeah, we're electric, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
we have an electromagnetic field around us,
you know, and so essentially,we, our bodies, are completely
full of photo receptors that arereceptive to different
wavelengths of light, and whenwe're using specific wavelengths
of light that these deviceshave, they have this therapeutic
effect of actually getting intothe skin and infrared actually
(14:26):
can penetrate a little bitdeeper than red light, correct?
And so there's different depthsof penetration based on the
specific device and thewavelength of light, and so
through that we're actuallyknocking nitric oxide out of the
cell, getting oxygen into thecell, charging these
mitochondria so they can dotheir job better, improving
cellular function and, as aresult, when our cells are
(14:50):
healthier, then we're healthier.
Big picture, yes, okay, and Iknow, when we were in the middle
of the pandemic, that a lot ofmy patients were coming in with
a loss of smell, and that waswhere I was actually really
recommending photomyomodulationintranasally because you could
shine that light up into thenasal passages and into the
(15:14):
orbital frontal cortex, which iswhere we have these tertiary
areas that are combining tasteand smell in the brain, and by
actually getting red light intothat area you could help with
restoring that sense of tasteand smell that people were
losing as a result of the virus.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Right, and you know also when you think about it.
You know COVID is also avascular disease, right?
People were getting COVIDfingers, covid toes, and so by
increasing your perfusion tothose areas and causing that
vasodilation, right then you'retreating COVID twofold there,
(15:50):
which is really exciting.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Awesome, yeah, and that perfusion piece is what
what we're focusing on with thebrain too.
It's like if we can get moreblood flow and oxygen to the
brain, the brain can work better, absolutely okay.
Well, let's go back in time andtalk about kind of the history
of red light therapy, because Ithink that that's also good to
know in the context of thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, so you know, I don't remember the guy's name
anymore and I'm sorry for that.
Listeners, if you want to readNorman Deutsch's book Chapter
Three on photobiomodulation, youcan get it all from there.
But there was a scientist whowas cutting open rats, putting
tumors in them and then usinglasers on them to see if he
(16:37):
could treat cancer with laser,and what he found was that it
was not an effective treatmentfor cancer.
However, the rats incisionshealed so much more rapidly in
the group treated with laser andtheir hair grew back way faster
.
Um so then?
(16:59):
So it was healing the skin.
It was healing the skin andincreasing hair growth, so there
was definitely something tothis.
It wasn't going to be used theway he wanted it to but, then
that was what sort ofspringboarded more research over
time, and then the moreresearch that was done, then
they wanted to do even moreresearch.
(17:19):
Well, how can we use it forthis, and what about that?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
and we're still in that, we're still on that path
right the more we learn, themore we want to learn.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, like, oh, can it do this too?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
totally and so then in the 1970s it really became
much more popular withveterinarian medicine, and so
it's been used much longer inveterinarian medicine than it
has in humans, and I think it'sin veterinarian medicine.
Maybe they're they're more opento trying things.
Would that be fair?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
yeah, I, I think so and um, I think also they need
more tools for their tool belt,because their patients can't
tell them what's wrong all thetime you know, the way that we
can vocalize our symptoms.
Um, and I do thinkveterinarians are always looking
(18:13):
for creative ways to treattheir animals as effectively as
possible, and I also think thatanimal owners will do more for
their loved ones than they'll dofor themselves Most of the time
as a horse girl.
I have to say I've treated myhorse better, quite possibly,
(18:36):
than I've ever treated my ownbody.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, I know that, like with the PEMF devices
that I have, they have like thehorse version of it and you
know, with like they getMagnaWave, they get K-Laser,
they get Beamers, I mean theyget it all.
Yeah, yeah, chiropracticacupuncture and you know, like
my friend had a pit bull thatkept like having an ACL injury
(19:00):
and so that pit bull also gotlike underwater treadmill rehab
and it's just like, okay, wow,there's all these cool things
that we're like letting theanimals do, and then, very
slowly, it's like wait, whatabout us?
Maybe we should use this.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So red light therapies kind of been in
veterinary medicine since the70s I think.
You know of a vet who'sactually using it like post,
like pre surgery, post surgery,yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Pre peri and post op, because you know, if it's
indicated like while she has theanimal open on her table, why
not get a solid dose of red,near infrared light to help
those organs heal andsupercharge them, because most
of the time red light's nevergoing to penetrate that deep.
Wow, and she.
You know, by prepping them acouple days before surgery with
(19:48):
laser, then treating themafterwards, they heal so much
more fat, so much more quickly,less scarring, less pain and
she's much less likely to haveto see them again anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah well, and I tell my patients that all the time,
like, okay, you're about to havea surgery, whether it's a hip
replacement or I had a patientthat had open chest you know,
open heart surgery and so ofcourse she had a huge scar on
her chest and we were doing thelaser on that scar because I was
seeing her twice a week afterthat surgery to help her recover
.
And now you can barely see thatscar.
(20:24):
It is not raised at all.
It is not dark, purple or angrylike some of the scars I see in
people who have had open heartsurgery a long time ago.
And it's just incredible howwell her scar healed just from
the red light therapy that wewere doing afterwards.
And then I had another patientwho had a cancerous lesion
removed from his shin and he hada crater in his shin and it
(20:48):
wasn't healing, and he had evenbeen going to wound healing
centers but they were not usingred light I don't know why, but
they weren't and so he wasn'tgetting better, and so I started
using the laser over thiscrater in his leg and every
single week it just got betterand better and better and it
went from being a crater togetting more and more shallow
(21:08):
and the red, angry skin turnedto pink and then eventually it
scabbed over and the whole thinghealed up like amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yes, so it is incredible for wound healing.
Yeah, I mean all like.
A lot of my patients when I wasat the VA had diabetic
peripheral neuropathy, which youknow makes it really hard for
them to heal if they have aninjury.
So I was treating them withlaser regularly, blowing the
podiatrist's minds.
Wow, this lady's had thisunhealing ulcer on her foot for
(21:39):
five years and all of a suddenit's healing Right and on top of
it the neuro regenerativeeffects of cold laser were
taking hold.
So now she doesn't have to walkwith a brace on her foot
anymore Because of her drop foot.
It's healing.
She can wear sneakers again,you know, and get that push off
(21:59):
when she walks.
It was incredible.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, amazing.
I do hope that you know.
More and more clinics startusing red light therapy and you
know, for example, I know thatwith psoriasis they are now
actually sending patients homewith red light devices for skin,
for psoriasis, yeah, and doingthings in office as well.
So I do think it's finallyworking its way into medicine in
(22:25):
general in a lot of differentdepartments, not just beauty and
cosmetology, but also likesurgical.
I think a lot of you knowphysical therapists and
chiropractors are using laserstoo, and now we've got even like
the dermatologists using themand so that you know it's
starting to show up in many,many different places.
(22:46):
Right, we're?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
seeing that growth, you know, exponentially.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
now it was really really really slow and only some
fringe folks like myself weregetting really really into it,
but it's really becomepopularized into some of the
specific devices and theresearch looking at concussions
(23:12):
and brain injuries.
I know that there is moreresearch looking even at mild
cognitive impairment, and canred light therapy actually help
improve cognitive function?
And so talk a little bit aboutthe V-Likes.
I know that you're veryfamiliar with that particular
device.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, there's quite a few transcranial photobiotic
modulation products out therenowadays.
The one I'm most familiar withis V-Lite, and I love them
because there's so much researchthat's been done to back them
up, and so I mean they've workedwith the VA in Boston, doing
(23:50):
studies in Utah, working withprofessional sports groups and
studying how the transcranialphotobiomodulation is affecting
these folks with concussions,tbis, anxiety, depression, ptsd,
and in showing really positiveresults Amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I know one of my friends was actually in one of
their studies and was sent a Vlight that he was supposed to
wear for a certain number ofdays a week, for I don't know if
it's eight weeks or 12 weeks,but he did say that he felt like
he noticed a difference when hewas using it regularly and was
part of the study.
I'm not sure what all of theirmetrics were like before and
(24:33):
after, but I do think it wasprobably just a ton of different
questionnaires on symptoms andkind of presentation that way.
But I think that you know theprocess of doing research is
always evolving.
You do a research study andthen you figure out how do we do
it better the next time.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Right, or get the sample size larger, right.
How do we eliminate bias?
Yes, yeah, right.
How do we?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
eliminate bias.
Yes, yeah, and some of the mildcognitive impairment studies
were actually looking at testingreaction time and memory and
doing neuropsych testing beforeand then after the use of the
device, and so it is pretty coolto see that they're trying to
get a lot of objective data tosay you know, how is this?
Not only how is this working,but like, how are we able to
(25:15):
measure the change?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Right, and I mean there's even implications for
improving cognitive function inhealthy brains as well.
You know people who are tryingto get more out of their
performance, whether it's anathletic performance, you know,
making your brain super sharpbefore you hit the field, or in.
(25:40):
You know, for soldiers and andsailors out there who want to be
at peak performance whenthey're out on a mission Like
yeah, there's a lot ofopportunity right To not only
heal but to like hack your brainand get the most out of it,
(26:00):
which is exciting Sometimes whenI have a bunch of chart notes I
have to crank out.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I'll just pop my my V light on While I'm sitting at
my desk.
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna putmy light on and we're just gonna
do chart notes.
We're gonna like, not look atanything else and just crank it
out.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I love that.
That is a smart use thatamazing tool you have in your
office.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
That's the nice thing about having a clinic full of
tools, you know.
It's like I have access to allof this great stuff that keeps
me operational.
Yes, and so with the V-Lite.
The cool thing about it, too,is that it has different
frequencies, and so it has thegamma setting and the alpha
setting.
So maybe explain a little bitmore about that and how that is
(26:43):
used.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah.
So the gamma pulse rate, 40hertz, is there to help you
improve cognitive function,right, to focus you okay, it's
not like a cup of coffee oranything kind of upper increase,
right, but just reallyharnessing in on the gamma stem,
(27:10):
that gamma state of your brain.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So it's supporting specific brainwave activity
related to being alert and awake.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yes, and then alpha stem.
That's your rest and digestmode.
This is where you heal, this iswhere you're more relaxed.
So this is an area where youwould want to do this, like
before bed maybe, andpotentially be easier to fall
asleep or mitigate anxiety.
(27:40):
But also, you know, if we can'trest, we can't heal, and so
putting your brain into thatstate that's primed for healing.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Now isn't our, isn't alpha wave activity.
What is kind of mostpredominant when people are
meditating and when they arekind of most predominant when
people are meditating and whenthey are kind of in that space
but like when they're fallingasleep, where they're like not
totally asleep, but they might,their brain is kind of wandering
yes, yes, like you know, whenyou're kind of spaced out and
daydreaming and you know you'renot stressing about the day.
(28:12):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Like oh wow, the birds are pretty.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Excellent.
Okay, so that's what's coolabout the V-Lite.
And the V-Lite has, like I said, that intranasal component too.
So not only is it transcranial,with all of the lights on the
top of the head and around theskull, but then also the clip
that actually gets that redlight up through the nostril and
kind of right into that frontallobe area.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yes, and I think that's what's really neat and
unique about V-Lite is, you know, besides the pulsing
wavelengths and all the researchthat they've done, they're one
of the few devices I've everseen that has an intranasal.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Right, I mean it doesn't look cool but it is cool
Therapeutically it's cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I mean you kind of look like something out of like
an old school cheesy sci-fimovie when you wear the thing.
But I mean, who cares if?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
you feel better.
Right, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And it's not like you wear it out in town, you know
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And I believe that one is like a 20-minute timer
yes, a 20-minute session andthose are actually LEDs not
laser, so it's easy for peopleto get it.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
You don't have to go necessarily through a medical
provider, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, have to go necessarilythrough a medical provider, you
know?
Yeah, and I do believe that Ihave a special link for people
that does give them, I think,10% off, if they do want to look
into that.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, give me that link.
I need a new one.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, and I mean, I think one of the nice things
about having the device in theclinic is that people can come
in, they can experience it andreceive care in clinic before
they make a decision on would.
I want to buy this and actuallyhave it at my house.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Right Like does this make sense for me and my
lifestyle?
Am I actually going to use itif I invest in it?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Exactly.
And the biggest thing is, youknow people when they come in
and they receive care, it'salways what is the what is the
frequency that's actually goingto make a difference.
And so you know if people arecoming in and they're maybe from
out of town and they're just infor, like, an intensive
treatment, or maybe they'redriving really far and they can
only come in, you know, once aweek or once every other week,
(30:32):
I'm always thinking of what canI do to have this person get
some kind of therapy at home inbetween treatments too?
Right?
So that's where I really likethe fact that they, you know,
allow people to purchase it touse at home so they can get some
kind of treatment in betweenwhen they're, you know, when
they're coming to see me.
So that's one of the reasonswhy I like it too, is I'm always
(30:54):
like what can people do at home, whether that's taking an
herbal formula or doing a PEMFtherapy or exercise.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
How can I empower people to be able to heal
themselves as well, and that'swhat I think a lot of people in
our culture want more ofnowadays.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I think so too.
More of nowadays.
I think so too, and I think,when it comes to the
photobiomodulation market,people are so confused because
it's like, okay, I could spend$60 or I could spend $100,000.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So what is the difference between these price
points and these differentdevices?
Right, and why are they setthat way?
And how do I know what's snakeoil and what's actually going to
help?
Me, I don't want to throw away$60 on something for it to not
work.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Exactly.
Yeah, I know I had somebody theother day that was like, oh, I
got this thing and it was like40 bucks at you know Walgreens
or whatever, and I was kind oflike, yeah, I don't think that's
going to be super helpful, letme check the label, let me check
the box Right.
Yeah, and so for our listeners,um, we have a blog post on the
(32:00):
life after impact website thatwill go over some of these kind
of frequently asked questionsand maybe some pros and cons of
some different devices that areout there right.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Let's just help you guys choose the right thing for
you, potentially with just alittle bit of extra information
exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I mean because, like my, my mom fell and injured her
wrist and so I gave her a flexbeam, which was this thing that
actually could like wrap aroundthe wrist.
It was very, you know,applicable to her wrist injury.
And then I had somebody elsethat had psoriasis and so I gave
them a red light panel whereit's like the panel was really
great for actually getting redlight onto the skin for the
(32:35):
psoriasis, and so there'sdifferent devices that really
make sense for maybe differentconditions or different purposes
.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
You're just trying to heal a wound on your skin.
Yes, yeah, but when it comes toconcussions, you might not want
(33:09):
the $60 device that isn'treally powered correctly or like
therapeutically.
It doesn't have enough LEDlights to make a difference in
improving.
It might not have the rightwavelengths to actually
penetrate the brain, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's so.
We'll tackle all of that in theblog post and give people some
additional information.
So at my clinic I've got, likeI mentioned, the flex beam, I've
got some panels, I've got myheadsets and then I have my
class 3B laser.
What is your favorite device?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Oh well, I have a favorite device for multiple
different things.
So if you want to get rid ofpain really, really quickly, you
want to be able to treat humansand animals.
I love the K laser Now inclinic where I'm just treating
humans.
I love both Thor and Avant.
(33:59):
I love the flexibility, theportability of the Avant.
I love all the differentpulsing features that it has.
The Thor laser is to me, fromwhat my personal experience is,
just the best at amelioratingpain.
It's a little clunkier, it'sdesktop setup.
(34:22):
You can't just easily take itfrom clinic room to clinic room.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But it also works really quickly.
It works really quickly.
It's a 30 second treatment.
No, it's a class 3B.
Okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And they have so many different heads that you can
put on that do different things,so there's a lot of different
ways you can use the Thor.
It's a little bit more nuancedthan the Avant but for
affordability, portability, justease of use and clinic, I love,
love, love the Avant and it'sso much cheaper than the Thor.
(34:58):
But the Thor is really really agreat quality product too Like
I wish that they could revamp itin some way, shape or form to
make it like yeah, to make itAvant portable you know Well,
you used the Thor on me lastnight.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
You said my shoulders felt like cement.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, they were rocks .
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Your traps were rocks , but I have no pain.
They feel great after youworked on them.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So thank you yeah yeah, I've also, you know, found
that the, the laser devices arevery good for pain, yes, and I
think that's the specklingeffect of the laser, because
you've got these coherent wavesin sync with each other and
something about how that works.
It's just like instant Within,like 30 seconds to five minutes
(35:47):
after treating myself with alaser, especially with an acute
injury of some sort, it's justgone.
It it's just gone.
It's like it didn't even happen, and most of the time it never
comes back.
I'm like how is this possible?
It still blows my mind everytime.
Even though I know that itworks, I'm still so surprised at
how good it works Awesome, yep.
(36:09):
And then for LEDs my favoritefor transcranial V v-light's
also coming out with a vegasnerve simulator that I'm really
excited to learn more about andexperiment with.
Um.
And then for just like treatingthe body for pain at home for
(36:30):
the average joe, I love the flexbeam.
It's like a two full watts ofpower, um, high powered leds,
red and near infrared, and asuper low price point compared
to a lot of other devices thatare actually therapeutically
beneficial in the LED class.
So love FlexBeam things.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and just
shining a light on all theconfusion that people have when
it comes to devices and whatthey're doing and the
differences between them.
So thank you so much forsharing all that information oh,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been such a joy liketalking to you, hanging out with
you and nerding out over all ofthese really, really cool
things that I'm very passionateabout, so thank you for having
me.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well, I love it too.
Awesome.
Well, thanks for coming on, andwhere can people find you?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
On LinkedIn.
Okay, caroline Wilkerson.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Super.
I'll put a link to that in thenotes as well.
Great, Thank you so much.
Thanks everybody for tuning inand again, if you want to learn
more about photobiomodulation,check out our blog at
lifeafterimpactcom.
You can also follow us onInstagram at lifeafterimpact,
and if there are any specifictopics you want us to tackle,
we'd love to hear from you.
(37:50):
You can click the text us linkin the show notes or send us an
email at lifeafterimpact atgmailcom.
Thanks again, and we'll see younext week.
Medical disclaimer.
This video or podcast is forgeneral informational purposes
(38:12):
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine or other
professional healthcare services, including the giving of
medical advice.
No doctor-patient relationshipis formed.
The use of this information andmaterials included is at the
user's own risk.
The content of this video orpodcast is not intended to be a
substitute for medical advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
(38:36):
consumers of this informationshould seek the advice of a
medical professional for any andall health-related issues.
A link to our full medicaldisclaimer is available in the
notes.
Nitric oxide will slow down your mitochondria's
ability to produce ATP.
So you free that up.
Awesome, it's producing energymore effectively.
Then what happens when nitricoxide hits your bloodstream?
It causes vasodilation.
Your blood vessels dilate.
It increases blood flow to thearea, reduces inflammation and
(00:23):
pain.
Right, so you're healing fasterand your cells producing energy
more efficiently.
So it does its job better,which in turn, also helps you
heal faster.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to Life After Impact, the concussion recovery
podcast.
I'm Dr Ayla Wolf and I will behosting today's episode, where
we help you navigate the oftenconfusing, frustrating and
overwhelming journey ofconcussion and brain injury
recovery.
This podcast is your go-toresource for actionable
information, whether you'redealing with a recent concussion
(00:57):
, struggling withpost-concussion syndrome or just
feeling stuck in your healingprocess.
In each episode, we dive deepinto the symptoms, testing,
treatments and neurologicalinsights that can help you move
forward with clarity andconfidence.
We bring you leading experts inthe world of brain health,
functional neurology andrehabilitation to share their
(01:19):
wisdom and strategies.
So if you're feeling lost,hopeless or like no one
understands what you're goingthrough, know that you are not
alone.
This podcast can be your guideand partner in recovery, helping
you build a better life afterimpact.
Today on the Life After Impactpodcast, we have Dr Caroline
(01:41):
Wilkerson here to talk to usabout.
We have Dr Caroline Wilkersonhere to talk to us about
photobiomodulation, the use ofred light therapy for helping
the brain heal and recover fromconcussions and brain injuries.
So I'm so excited to have youon the show.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's an honor to come on yourpodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, let's dive a little bit into your history.
You have such an eclecticbackground, which I love, I do.
You were in Naval Intelligenceyes, for a while.
You speak Russian, mandarin andEnglish, that's correct, and
(02:20):
you are a doctor of acupunctureand Chinese medicine, and you
worked for a number of years inclinical practice at the Jesse
Brown VA Center in Chicago andthen transitioned into the
administration as the chief ofpatient experience, where you
worked so hard to actuallyimprove veterans experience of
being a patient at Jesse Brownyes, which is incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Thank you.
It was a passion project Closeto my soul.
I've never done any morechallenging work in my life, but
it was.
It was really worth it.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Good, it was an honor to serve again such a unique
combination of skills andperspectives from being on both
sides of the equation, or allsides of the equation, and so I
love that about you thatwhatever project you're tackling
, you're able to look at it frommultiple perspectives.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, and then you are currently the VP of
government relations at patientpoint, which is a health
education and communicationcompany, and you were the
co-founder of a distributor oflight therapy devices.
Yes, and this is why I have youon the show today is because you
(03:39):
were actually selling lighttherapy devices from different
companies, which meant that youdid a ton of research on all the
different devices that are outthere to say which devices are
actually of therapeutic quality,and you were able to then
explain that to people and bringthat to you know commercial use
for clinical practice, forretail, and so in the process of
(04:00):
doing that, you have becomekind of an expert and a wealth
of information on red lighttherapy.
So thanks for being here and I'mhoping that you can shed some
light on everybody's confusionaround what is this and how do I
even go about potentiallyfinding a device to use, whether
that is a you know, a medicalprofessional in a clinical
(04:21):
practice or just somebody whowants to use it at home to help
in healing from their concussion.
So let's start out by havingyou talk a little bit about the
terms.
We hear the termphotobiomodulation.
Some of these terms that aremaybe now a little bit more
outdated are things like coldlaser or low level laser.
We now know that there'sdifferences between laser
(04:44):
devices and LED and there'sdifferent price point
differences, so let's talk aboutthe terms and maybe just
explain the difference betweenall of those.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, so photobiomodulation it's a newer
term, it's a big umbrella termfor any time that you use light
to change how your cellsfunction, that you use light to
change how your cells function.
So red light therapy, nearinfrared light therapy, infrared
therapy, green light, you know.
(05:13):
Blue light, all the beautylights that you, you know.
Face lights that you see, thosemasks that have multiple colors
.
That's all photobiomodulation.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And then people are even using UV light to help
whiten their teeth.
Yes, I know, there's evendevices out there where you
literally plug it into yourphone and your phone powers it,
and then you just stick thesethings in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, you just bite on the yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's wild.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Also, there's a lot of people doing syntonics, which
is essentially a form ofphotobiomodulation that helps
with visual symptoms andautonomic functioning.
You know we have this saying oflike looking through the world
through rose colored glasses,and I find that such a
fascinating saying because Ihave all these different colored
glasses in my clinic and whenpeople come in with post
(05:58):
traumatic headaches, a lot oftimes I'll have them play around
with putting on all thesedifferent colored lenses to find
which lens actually makes youfeel the most calm or makes it
so that the fluorescent lightsare not so irritating to your
system, or it's like which lensactually makes you feel more
relaxed.
And for me, whenever I playaround with them, it's always
(06:20):
the rose colored glasses thatI'm like.
I'm just going to wear thesefor a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Oh, I love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
And I so literally looking through the at the world
through rose colored lensesactually calms down my system.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's great.
Yeah, I'm a I'm a green greengirl.
I love green for calming yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
A lot of people with migraines seem to really like
having the green glasses, too,seem to really like having the
green glasses too.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, it helps just relax the mind and the body.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
So Okay, so we have this umbrella term,
photobiomodulation, that can beapplied to not only different
light therapy devices, but likelenses and whitening the teeth
and all these different things,and then we have these terms
laser versus LED.
So let's talk about that next.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, so you know lasers are.
The use of laser in most statesis restricted to medical
professionals.
Right, because lasers can causeharm.
Period.
You can damage the eyes with aclass three laser.
You can damage actual tissuewith a class four laser.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So how these devices are manufactured and what
they're capable of is differentfrom company to company and
device to device.
Yes, and so that is, I think,where you really did a lot of
research in saying there may bea lot of devices out there that
are not so therapeutic orthey're just kind of junk, and
then there's devices, whetherthey are LED or laser, that
(07:49):
actually do.
They were well made, they weremade with a lot of science
behind them and they actually dohave therapeutic value.
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, and then also withinlasers, there's different, like
you mentioned.
There's class three lasers,there's class four lasers, and
(08:11):
so that is really also kind ofhow they're being used medically
and versus, say, a class onelaser is something you might see
with, like a cat toy or a CDplayer has has a laser in it.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yes, yes, so that's, you're looking at class one,
class two lasers there and thenwhen you get to the, when you
get to the class three, coldlaser, most of the devices that
I like for clinical use myselfare class threes because you
don't have the opportunity todamage the tissue there
potentially and it's a veryquick treatment and especially
(08:41):
when somebody has pain,especially acute pain, it
ameliorates it really quickly ina way that you don't get from
the LED.
And then the class four laser.
There's a section of class fourlasers that are still
considered cold lasers, like a Klaser.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And they use that at your barn.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You're an equestrian, yes yes, I'm a horse girl.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And so the horses are getting a class 4 K-laser to
help with just muscle sorenessor also.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Injury.
Repair, you know, if they cuttheir leg on a fence and we need
to, you know.
Heal the skin, close the woundfaster, even damage to tendons.
I mean, I've seen horses thatpeople were pretty sure they
were going to have to put downdue to injury be saved by a
(09:34):
combination of brilliant rehabspecialists, amazing vets and
K-Laser.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Amazing, yeah, awesome.
And I know that lasers havebeen used a lot in veterinary
medicine long before they becamepopular for humans, but we'll
get to that in a minute.
Yeah, okay, so we've talkedabout this umbrella term,
photobiomodulation.
Then we have lasers and we haveLEDs.
Lasers are often kind of seenmore in the medical world
(10:03):
because there is that potentialfor damage if it is used
incorrectly, whereas LED is moresafe for home use because it
has less of a potential toactually damage skin or cause
harm if someone is using itincorrectly.
It's harder to use themincorrectly, I guess.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes, I mean you still , if you're, you know, treating
the face you, depending on howmuch power those LEDs are
putting out, you may still wantto wear those tanning goggles
over your eyes.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Well, sometimes those lights are just really bright
too yeah.
It's nice to just have some eyeprotection on Agreed, yeah, and
a lot of the home devices alsoare very user-friendly in the
sense that it's on a timer.
You kind of just hit start andit's on.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
You know, it turns itself off.
Set it and forget it.
Set it and forget it.
It's great, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Great.
And then let's talk a littlebit about how it works, because
every day in my practice I'musing red light therapy and so
every single day, my patientsask me what is this doing?
And so I know, like your firstexperience of it, you were
shadowing somebody in the clinicthey pull out this, what looks
like a red flashlight, andyou're like what on earth are
(11:14):
you doing?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Oh, absolutely, I was totally skeptical.
I'm like here's this woman Ihave so much respect for as a
clinician and she's shining ared flashlight on people like
how does that make people feelbetter?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I you know and well, and these little red flashlights
are actually like seventhousand dollars or more, you
know, and so they look likethese kind of harmless things
because it's just a handheldlittle tool, but it's actually.
There's a lot of power in thisthing.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
A ton of power, a ton of research that goes into them
before they can even hit themarket.
And so I started after I sawthe red flashlight that I was
very skeptical of.
I'm like, okay, I'm going tosee if there's something to this
.
And I did a ton of research.
At that time there were over4,500 articles on PubMed that
(12:02):
were published that on myriad ofdifferent conditions that were
showing a therapeutic benefitfor laser and LED, and I was
astounded and then I'm like,okay, exactly how does this work
?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, okay, so let's talk about that, cause that's
the big question here, and youknow, usually we um, you know,
go right back down to thebeginnings of how does our body
work right?
And in order for our body towork, we have mitochondria in
every single cell, and thosemitochondria are the powerhouses
(12:40):
of our cell.
They're the ones that makeenergy, and so much of the most
cutting edge research these daysis focused on mitochondrial
health, and I think that's wherepeople are really being able to
point to red light therapy.
To say like this is somethingthat really helps, but why don't
you get into like the realnitty gritty of what it's doing?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So what happens when red and near infrared light, in
particular wavelengths, hitsyour cells?
It knocks the oxidative stressout of the cell, the nitric
oxide, and forces the cell torelease that back into the
bloodstream.
So nitric oxide will slow downyour mitochondria's ability to
(13:26):
produce ATP.
So you free that up Awesome,it's producing energy more
effectively.
Then what happens when nitricoxide hits your bloodstream?
It causes vasodilation.
Your blood vessels dilate.
It increases blood flow to thearea, reduces inflammation and
pain right, so you're healingfaster and your cells producing
(13:49):
energy more efficiently.
So it does its job better,which in turn, also helps you
heal faster.
Okay, great, you're basicallysupercharging your body, right?
So we really are batteries weare.
Yeah, we're electric, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
we have an electromagnetic field around us,
you know, and so essentially,we, our bodies, are completely
full of photo receptors that arereceptive to different
wavelengths of light, and whenwe're using specific wavelengths
of light that these deviceshave, they have this therapeutic
effect of actually getting intothe skin and infrared actually
(14:26):
can penetrate a little bitdeeper than red light, correct?
And so there's different depthsof penetration based on the
specific device and thewavelength of light, and so
through that we're actuallyknocking nitric oxide out of the
cell, getting oxygen into thecell, charging these
mitochondria so they can dotheir job better, improving
cellular function and, as aresult, when our cells are
(14:50):
healthier, then we're healthier.
Big picture, yes, okay, and Iknow, when we were in the middle
of the pandemic, that a lot ofmy patients were coming in with
a loss of smell, and that waswhere I was actually really
recommending photomyomodulationintranasally because you could
shine that light up into thenasal passages and into the
(15:14):
orbital frontal cortex, which iswhere we have these tertiary
areas that are combining tasteand smell in the brain, and by
actually getting red light intothat area you could help with
restoring that sense of tasteand smell that people were
losing as a result of the virus.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Right, and you know also when you think about it.
You know COVID is also avascular disease, right?
People were getting COVIDfingers, covid toes, and so by
increasing your perfusion tothose areas and causing that
vasodilation, right then you'retreating COVID twofold there,
(15:50):
which is really exciting.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Awesome, yeah, and that perfusion piece is what
what we're focusing on with thebrain too.
It's like if we can get moreblood flow and oxygen to the
brain, the brain can work better, absolutely okay.
Well, let's go back in time andtalk about kind of the history
of red light therapy, because Ithink that that's also good to
know in the context of thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, so you know, I don't remember the guy's name
anymore and I'm sorry for that.
Listeners, if you want to readNorman Deutsch's book Chapter
Three on photobiomodulation, youcan get it all from there.
But there was a scientist whowas cutting open rats, putting
tumors in them and then usinglasers on them to see if he
(16:37):
could treat cancer with laser,and what he found was that it
was not an effective treatmentfor cancer.
However, the rats incisionshealed so much more rapidly in
the group treated with laser andtheir hair grew back way faster
.
Um so then?
(16:59):
So it was healing the skin.
It was healing the skin andincreasing hair growth, so there
was definitely something tothis.
It wasn't going to be used theway he wanted it to but, then
that was what sort ofspringboarded more research over
time, and then the moreresearch that was done, then
they wanted to do even moreresearch.
(17:19):
Well, how can we use it forthis, and what about that?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
and we're still in that, we're still on that path
right the more we learn, themore we want to learn.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, like, oh, can it do this too?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
totally and so then in the 1970s it really became
much more popular withveterinarian medicine, and so
it's been used much longer inveterinarian medicine than it
has in humans, and I think it'sin veterinarian medicine.
Maybe they're they're more opento trying things.
Would that be fair?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
yeah, I, I think so and um, I think also they need
more tools for their tool belt,because their patients can't
tell them what's wrong all thetime you know, the way that we
can vocalize our symptoms.
Um, and I do thinkveterinarians are always looking
(18:13):
for creative ways to treattheir animals as effectively as
possible, and I also think thatanimal owners will do more for
their loved ones than they'll dofor themselves Most of the time
as a horse girl.
I have to say I've treated myhorse better, quite possibly,
(18:36):
than I've ever treated my ownbody.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, I know that, like with the PEMF devices
that I have, they have like thehorse version of it and you
know, with like they getMagnaWave, they get K-Laser,
they get Beamers, I mean theyget it all.
Yeah, yeah, chiropracticacupuncture and you know, like
my friend had a pit bull thatkept like having an ACL injury
(19:00):
and so that pit bull also gotlike underwater treadmill rehab
and it's just like, okay, wow,there's all these cool things
that we're like letting theanimals do, and then, very
slowly, it's like wait, whatabout us?
Maybe we should use this.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So red light therapies kind of been in
veterinary medicine since the70s I think.
You know of a vet who'sactually using it like post,
like pre surgery, post surgery,yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Pre peri and post op, because you know, if it's
indicated like while she has theanimal open on her table, why
not get a solid dose of red,near infrared light to help
those organs heal andsupercharge them, because most
of the time red light's nevergoing to penetrate that deep.
Wow, and she.
You know, by prepping them acouple days before surgery with
(19:48):
laser, then treating themafterwards, they heal so much
more fat, so much more quickly,less scarring, less pain and
she's much less likely to haveto see them again anytime soon.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah well, and I tell my patients that all the time,
like, okay, you're about to havea surgery, whether it's a hip
replacement or I had a patientthat had open chest you know,
open heart surgery and so ofcourse she had a huge scar on
her chest and we were doing thelaser on that scar because I was
seeing her twice a week afterthat surgery to help her recover
.
And now you can barely see thatscar.
(20:24):
It is not raised at all.
It is not dark, purple or angrylike some of the scars I see in
people who have had open heartsurgery a long time ago.
And it's just incredible howwell her scar healed just from
the red light therapy that wewere doing afterwards.
And then I had another patientwho had a cancerous lesion
removed from his shin and he hada crater in his shin and it
(20:48):
wasn't healing, and he had evenbeen going to wound healing
centers but they were not usingred light I don't know why, but
they weren't and so he wasn'tgetting better, and so I started
using the laser over thiscrater in his leg and every
single week it just got betterand better and better and it
went from being a crater togetting more and more shallow
(21:08):
and the red, angry skin turnedto pink and then eventually it
scabbed over and the whole thinghealed up like amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yes, so it is incredible for wound healing.
Yeah, I mean all like.
A lot of my patients when I wasat the VA had diabetic
peripheral neuropathy, which youknow makes it really hard for
them to heal if they have aninjury.
So I was treating them withlaser regularly, blowing the
podiatrist's minds.
Wow, this lady's had thisunhealing ulcer on her foot for
(21:39):
five years and all of a suddenit's healing Right and on top of
it the neuro regenerativeeffects of cold laser were
taking hold.
So now she doesn't have to walkwith a brace on her foot
anymore Because of her drop foot.
It's healing.
She can wear sneakers again,you know, and get that push off
(21:59):
when she walks.
It was incredible.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, amazing.
I do hope that you know.
More and more clinics startusing red light therapy and you
know, for example, I know thatwith psoriasis they are now
actually sending patients homewith red light devices for skin,
for psoriasis, yeah, and doingthings in office as well.
So I do think it's finallyworking its way into medicine in
(22:25):
general in a lot of differentdepartments, not just beauty and
cosmetology, but also likesurgical.
I think a lot of you knowphysical therapists and
chiropractors are using laserstoo, and now we've got even like
the dermatologists using themand so that you know it's
starting to show up in many,many different places.
(22:46):
Right, we're?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
seeing that growth, you know, exponentially.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
now it was really really really slow and only some
fringe folks like myself weregetting really really into it,
but it's really becomepopularized into some of the
specific devices and theresearch looking at concussions
(23:12):
and brain injuries.
I know that there is moreresearch looking even at mild
cognitive impairment, and canred light therapy actually help
improve cognitive function?
And so talk a little bit aboutthe V-Likes.
I know that you're veryfamiliar with that particular
device.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, there's quite a few transcranial photobiotic
modulation products out therenowadays.
The one I'm most familiar withis V-Lite, and I love them
because there's so much researchthat's been done to back them
up, and so I mean they've workedwith the VA in Boston, doing
(23:50):
studies in Utah, working withprofessional sports groups and
studying how the transcranialphotobiomodulation is affecting
these folks with concussions,tbis, anxiety, depression, ptsd,
and in showing really positiveresults Amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I know one of my friends was actually in one of
their studies and was sent a Vlight that he was supposed to
wear for a certain number ofdays a week, for I don't know if
it's eight weeks or 12 weeks,but he did say that he felt like
he noticed a difference when hewas using it regularly and was
part of the study.
I'm not sure what all of theirmetrics were like before and
(24:33):
after, but I do think it wasprobably just a ton of different
questionnaires on symptoms andkind of presentation that way.
But I think that you know theprocess of doing research is
always evolving.
You do a research study andthen you figure out how do we do
it better the next time.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Right, or get the sample size larger, right.
How do we eliminate bias?
Yes, yeah, right.
How do we?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
eliminate bias.
Yes, yeah, and some of the mildcognitive impairment studies
were actually looking at testingreaction time and memory and
doing neuropsych testing beforeand then after the use of the
device, and so it is pretty coolto see that they're trying to
get a lot of objective data tosay you know, how is this?
Not only how is this working,but like, how are we able to
(25:15):
measure the change?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Right, and I mean there's even implications for
improving cognitive function inhealthy brains as well.
You know people who are tryingto get more out of their
performance, whether it's anathletic performance, you know,
making your brain super sharpbefore you hit the field, or in.
(25:40):
You know, for soldiers and andsailors out there who want to be
at peak performance whenthey're out on a mission Like
yeah, there's a lot ofopportunity right To not only
heal but to like hack your brainand get the most out of it,
(26:00):
which is exciting Sometimes whenI have a bunch of chart notes I
have to crank out.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I'll just pop my my V light on While I'm sitting at
my desk.
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna putmy light on and we're just gonna
do chart notes.
We're gonna like, not look atanything else and just crank it
out.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I love that.
That is a smart use thatamazing tool you have in your
office.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
That's the nice thing about having a clinic full of
tools, you know.
It's like I have access to allof this great stuff that keeps
me operational.
Yes, and so with the V-Lite.
The cool thing about it, too,is that it has different
frequencies, and so it has thegamma setting and the alpha
setting.
So maybe explain a little bitmore about that and how that is
(26:43):
used.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah.
So the gamma pulse rate, 40hertz, is there to help you
improve cognitive function,right, to focus you okay, it's
not like a cup of coffee oranything kind of upper increase,
right, but just reallyharnessing in on the gamma stem,
(27:10):
that gamma state of your brain.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So it's supporting specific brainwave activity
related to being alert and awake.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yes, and then alpha stem.
That's your rest and digestmode.
This is where you heal, this iswhere you're more relaxed.
So this is an area where youwould want to do this, like
before bed maybe, andpotentially be easier to fall
asleep or mitigate anxiety.
(27:40):
But also, you know, if we can'trest, we can't heal, and so
putting your brain into thatstate that's primed for healing.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Now isn't our, isn't alpha wave activity.
What is kind of mostpredominant when people are
meditating and when they arekind of most predominant when
people are meditating and whenthey are kind of in that space
but like when they're fallingasleep, where they're like not
totally asleep, but they might,their brain is kind of wandering
yes, yes, like you know, whenyou're kind of spaced out and
daydreaming and you know you'renot stressing about the day.
(28:12):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Like oh wow, the birds are pretty.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Excellent.
Okay, so that's what's coolabout the V-Lite.
And the V-Lite has, like I said, that intranasal component too.
So not only is it transcranial,with all of the lights on the
top of the head and around theskull, but then also the clip
that actually gets that redlight up through the nostril and
kind of right into that frontallobe area.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yes, and I think that's what's really neat and
unique about V-Lite is, you know, besides the pulsing
wavelengths and all the researchthat they've done, they're one
of the few devices I've everseen that has an intranasal.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Right, I mean it doesn't look cool but it is cool
Therapeutically it's cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I mean you kind of look like something out of like
an old school cheesy sci-fimovie when you wear the thing.
But I mean, who cares if?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
you feel better.
Right, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And it's not like you wear it out in town, you know
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And I believe that one is like a 20-minute timer
yes, a 20-minute session andthose are actually LEDs not
laser, so it's easy for peopleto get it.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
You don't have to go necessarily through a medical
provider, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, have to go necessarilythrough a medical provider, you
know?
Yeah, and I do believe that Ihave a special link for people
that does give them, I think,10% off, if they do want to look
into that.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, give me that link.
I need a new one.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, and I mean, I think one of the nice things
about having the device in theclinic is that people can come
in, they can experience it andreceive care in clinic before
they make a decision on would.
I want to buy this and actuallyhave it at my house.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Right Like does this make sense for me and my
lifestyle?
Am I actually going to use itif I invest in it?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Exactly.
And the biggest thing is, youknow people when they come in
and they receive care, it'salways what is the what is the
frequency that's actually goingto make a difference.
And so you know if people arecoming in and they're maybe from
out of town and they're just infor, like, an intensive
treatment, or maybe they'redriving really far and they can
only come in, you know, once aweek or once every other week,
(30:32):
I'm always thinking of what canI do to have this person get
some kind of therapy at home inbetween treatments too?
Right?
So that's where I really likethe fact that they, you know,
allow people to purchase it touse at home so they can get some
kind of treatment in betweenwhen they're, you know, when
they're coming to see me.
So that's one of the reasonswhy I like it too, is I'm always
(30:54):
like what can people do at home, whether that's taking an
herbal formula or doing a PEMFtherapy or exercise.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
How can I empower people to be able to heal
themselves as well, and that'swhat I think a lot of people in
our culture want more ofnowadays.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I think so too.
More of nowadays.
I think so too, and I think,when it comes to the
photobiomodulation market,people are so confused because
it's like, okay, I could spend$60 or I could spend $100,000.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So what is the difference between these price
points and these differentdevices?
Right, and why are they setthat way?
And how do I know what's snakeoil and what's actually going to
help?
Me, I don't want to throw away$60 on something for it to not
work.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Exactly.
Yeah, I know I had somebody theother day that was like, oh, I
got this thing and it was like40 bucks at you know Walgreens
or whatever, and I was kind oflike, yeah, I don't think that's
going to be super helpful, letme check the label, let me check
the box Right.
Yeah, and so for our listeners,um, we have a blog post on the
(32:00):
life after impact website thatwill go over some of these kind
of frequently asked questionsand maybe some pros and cons of
some different devices that areout there right.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Let's just help you guys choose the right thing for
you, potentially with just alittle bit of extra information
exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I mean because, like my, my mom fell and injured her
wrist and so I gave her a flexbeam, which was this thing that
actually could like wrap aroundthe wrist.
It was very, you know,applicable to her wrist injury.
And then I had somebody elsethat had psoriasis and so I gave
them a red light panel whereit's like the panel was really
great for actually getting redlight onto the skin for the
(32:35):
psoriasis, and so there'sdifferent devices that really
make sense for maybe differentconditions or different purposes
.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
You're just trying to heal a wound on your skin.
Yes, yeah, but when it comes toconcussions, you might not want
(33:09):
the $60 device that isn'treally powered correctly or like
therapeutically.
It doesn't have enough LEDlights to make a difference in
improving.
It might not have the rightwavelengths to actually
penetrate the brain, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's so.
We'll tackle all of that in theblog post and give people some
additional information.
So at my clinic I've got, likeI mentioned, the flex beam, I've
got some panels, I've got myheadsets and then I have my
class 3B laser.
What is your favorite device?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Oh well, I have a favorite device for multiple
different things.
So if you want to get rid ofpain really, really quickly, you
want to be able to treat humansand animals.
I love the K laser Now inclinic where I'm just treating
humans.
I love both Thor and Avant.
(33:59):
I love the flexibility, theportability of the Avant.
I love all the differentpulsing features that it has.
The Thor laser is to me, fromwhat my personal experience is,
just the best at amelioratingpain.
It's a little clunkier, it'sdesktop setup.
(34:22):
You can't just easily take itfrom clinic room to clinic room.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
But it also works really quickly.
It works really quickly.
It's a 30 second treatment.
No, it's a class 3B.
Okay, got it.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And they have so many different heads that you can
put on that do different things,so there's a lot of different
ways you can use the Thor.
It's a little bit more nuancedthan the Avant but for
affordability, portability, justease of use and clinic, I love,
love, love the Avant and it'sso much cheaper than the Thor.
(34:58):
But the Thor is really really agreat quality product too Like
I wish that they could revamp itin some way, shape or form to
make it like yeah, to make itAvant portable you know Well,
you used the Thor on me lastnight.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
You said my shoulders felt like cement.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, they were rocks .
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Your traps were rocks , but I have no pain.
They feel great after youworked on them.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
So thank you yeah yeah, I've also, you know, found
that the, the laser devices arevery good for pain, yes, and I
think that's the specklingeffect of the laser, because
you've got these coherent wavesin sync with each other and
something about how that works.
It's just like instant Within,like 30 seconds to five minutes
(35:47):
after treating myself with alaser, especially with an acute
injury of some sort, it's justgone.
It it's just gone.
It's like it didn't even happen, and most of the time it never
comes back.
I'm like how is this possible?
It still blows my mind everytime.
Even though I know that itworks, I'm still so surprised at
how good it works Awesome, yep.
(36:09):
And then for LEDs my favoritefor transcranial V v-light's
also coming out with a vegasnerve simulator that I'm really
excited to learn more about andexperiment with.
Um.
And then for just like treatingthe body for pain at home for
(36:30):
the average joe, I love the flexbeam.
It's like a two full watts ofpower, um, high powered leds,
red and near infrared, and asuper low price point compared
to a lot of other devices thatare actually therapeutically
beneficial in the LED class.
So love FlexBeam things.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and just
shining a light on all theconfusion that people have when
it comes to devices and whatthey're doing and the
differences between them.
So thank you so much forsharing all that information oh,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been such a joy liketalking to you, hanging out with
you and nerding out over all ofthese really, really cool
things that I'm very passionateabout, so thank you for having
me.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well, I love it too.
Awesome.
Well, thanks for coming on, andwhere can people find you?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
On LinkedIn.
Okay, caroline Wilkerson.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Super.
I'll put a link to that in thenotes as well.
Great, Thank you so much.
Thanks everybody for tuning inand again, if you want to learn
more about photobiomodulation,check out our blog at
lifeafterimpactcom.
You can also follow us onInstagram at lifeafterimpact,
and if there are any specifictopics you want us to tackle,
we'd love to hear from you.
(37:50):
You can click the text us linkin the show notes or send us an
email at lifeafterimpact atgmailcom.
Thanks again, and we'll see younext week.
Medical disclaimer.
This video or podcast is forgeneral informational purposes
(38:12):
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine or other
professional healthcare services, including the giving of
medical advice.
No doctor-patient relationshipis formed.
The use of this information andmaterials included is at the
user's own risk.
The content of this video orpodcast is not intended to be a
substitute for medical advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
(38:36):
consumers of this informationshould seek the advice of a
medical professional for any andall health-related issues.
A link to our full medicaldisclaimer is available in the
notes.
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