The pendulum between Lion and Lamb imagery has swung dramatically throughout church history, with profound implications for our spiritual lives. Tracy opens up about a revelation that challenged his own approach to spiritual authority, sharing how the early church primarily identified with Christ as the sacrificial Lamb rather than the conquering Lion.
This conversation delves into how our cultural preferences have shaped Christian spirituality, often gravitating toward power, conquest, and warfare language while undervaluing surrender, gentleness, and vulnerability. Tracy and David reflect on their own experiences in the charismatic movement, recalling the profound spiritual encounters they had with the "Father's heart" movement in the mid-1980s—experiences characterized not by forceful declarations but by gentle, tender intimacy that carried extraordinary power.
The most profound insight emerges through their discussion of Paul's thorn in the flesh. Rather than seeing obstacles as things to overcome through aggressive spiritual warfare, they suggest a more transformative approach: understanding that God's grace—His effectual power—works most perfectly when we surrender our striving. For those facing seemingly insurmountable challenges, the message is liberating: your breakthrough may come not through fighting harder but through surrendering deeper.
This episode offers a timely correction to imbalanced spirituality, inviting listeners to rediscover the mysticism of the early church where relationship trumped religious performance. As Tracy concludes with a powerful prayer, he reminds us that "fire falls on the sacrifice, not on the altar"—a fitting metaphor for a spirituality where our surrendered lives become the conduit for God's most powerful work. Ready to experience the authority that comes through intimacy? This conversation might just transform your approach to spiritual challenges.
Loving Yeshua/Jesus, Loving people... Come as you are and you will be loved!
Feel free to check out our website by typing in lifearoundthefire.com or Life Around The Fire ... We think you'll find some beneficial stuff to look at and apply to your life.
Shalom to you and your home.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, folks, welcome back.
We're going to do kind of apart two of this series.
We're calling it a series, butthe first portion that Tracy
shared was really the that'sreally the lion's share of the
word that God gave to him, punintended, and the lambbs share
(00:24):
on that one.
But we're going to have a littlebit more of an open forum, a
little question and discussiontime.
We've done this before and itseems to flow pretty good.
And so, tracy, concerning thisaspect of and you touched in on
(00:48):
it and I think it's important totouch in on it personally again
a little bit and that is thatcertain things they sell books,
they sell tapes they can bemarketed, and I don't think
(01:10):
that's all wrong.
I think there's a place forthings to be sold and people
have materials that they put intheir hands.
But there also is somethingabout having a shtick and, uh, I
really think that you did us agood service by just emphasizing
the fact that that is apendulum that's been swinging
(01:33):
back and forth.
You know how it goes, andsometimes we, the pendulum
swings and you're right in themiddle and everything's good,
but then it can swing a littlebit over middle and everything's
good, but then it could swing alittle bit over, and I think
(01:56):
that there's a danger in hasbeen a danger in using the line
as a marketing tool.
Is that a fair assessment or amI taking that a little bit too
far?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
No, I think I believe I've seen that, you know, I've
seen it more and you have too.
Yeah, prophetic Worship andWarfare Conference, you know,
for the last 30 years or so, andthis you know, all spiritual,
the lion being the emblem.
But I want to, I don't knowthat, if it's, I don't know that
it's so conscious, you know, Idon't know that it's so
conscious, you know, because itis.
(02:25):
At times we wind up.
You know, I bet, as we havethis discussion and I said, the
only time the Lion of the tribeof Judah is mentioned is once in
Revelation 5, I bet a lot ofpeople who have been in church a
long time may scratch theirhead at that because of the
amount of times and the emphasisthey've seen on that, and maybe
(02:48):
not.
I could be wrong.
So I think what happens is overtime even.
That's why I mentioned themiddle ages and how that you
know that fed into it the needof humanity.
Even when the, when matthaijesus came, you know, right to
the very end, they, they werelike wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You know he was supposed to come as the
conquering lion.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And they had some, you know, they had all the lamb
stuff, but in their mind, underthe Roman oppression, their need
was for the conquering, youknow, for Messiah was for the
conquering, you know, forMessiah, you know, and the
oppressed Jews for all thoseyears was someone who would take
them out of their physicaloppression and then in the
(03:31):
Middle Ages, as that became, Ithink it kind of gets into our,
literally, into our culture andinto our subconscious, you know,
and then it starts, and whenthat happens it actually moves
people.
So yeah, so what marketing isbased on?
Moving people?
That's what it's designed forit's made on you know.
(03:53):
So you know good preachingmoves people, and so, with that
being said, yeah, I don't wantto accuse people of being
marketers.
I think that we recognize and Igo back to this caused me to
want to repent.
In other words, how can I livea more balanced life?
(04:16):
How can I balance this out more?
Jeannie really expresses thelamb much more than the lion in
worship.
It's powerful if you thinkabout it, and I'm not saying
that's good or bad.
She could probably use more ofthe push.
So I'm always thinking aboutwhat that looks like in
(04:38):
application and there will bepeople maybe on this podcast and
going forward that we'll nailin on that.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Well, I think it's healthy.
I think it's healthy toacknowledge, if there's a need
to bring about some change,repentance.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, and I think that's where the key is, because
what I see is going back.
It was interesting why the Oldchurch?
Because we want to go back tothe book of Acts church and I
believe we are, you know, in2025.
God's the same yesterday, todayand forever.
So you know, so we will.
So to go back to the earlychurch means we go back to their
(05:19):
, the original doctrines.
What is it Breaking?
Bread, communion, fellowshipand the apostles' doctrine,
which was what Love of Jesus, ofJesus, taught.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Because it was so fresh Well, I mean talk about
fresh, he had just ascended,basically, and so the time frame
in which that was taking placeand the emphasis that you
presented through the firstthree centuries was more so.
(06:00):
Concerning the lamb Was thelamb, yeah, and the shepherd?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And the shepherd carrying the lamb.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, and the shepherd Carrying the lamb, the
shepherd carrying the lamb, yeah.
And there's something I know Icame into contact with this
personally in the 80s, mid-80s.
I came in touch with a realgentleness in the area of
worship and it happened to be inthe context of the vineyard,
(06:24):
the vineyard, yeah, the vineyard, the area of worship, and it
happened to be in the context ofthe vineyard, the vineyard,
yeah, the vineyard, the Father'sheart, and it was extraordinary
, yeah, oh, and it was quiet andit was gentle, but it was so
powerful, I mean powerful God'spresence, so he hovered on that
he came upon it and we werehosting his glory.
(06:45):
And it wasn't.
Sometimes it was exuberant yes,yes and yes, but other times it
was almost tearful.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And it was a new thing oh to me.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I was undone.
What was that?
The 80s?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Mid-80s for me.
Yeah, mid-80s for me, mid-80s,yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And then into the early 90s, and then spiritual
warfare then became a littlemore in vogue for a bit, and
then the prophetic movement kindof took a swing that was a
little more aggressive in itsapproach toward addressing
things.
Addressing things, and all thatbeing said, though, that the,
(07:33):
the vision that you had, again,that was, you didn't my
understanding.
You just seek that out.
Oh no, no, no, it wasn't likeyou're trying to traffic a,
something rarely happens ITravacate something.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, I bet it is Rarely happens.
I wouldn't mind it happeningagain.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
But yeah, it was but it was that it rocked me.
Yeah, yeah, it rocked you, andto this day, would you say that
the effect of that rings throughand it's coming around again.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes, and so I love what you were saying, what you
were saying there, and I thinkwhat it speaks to a lot of, it
speaks to the need for both, butthe in a warfare, the exhale or
, if you will, the roar, theline, line of the tribe of
judiblically, I think, reveal ormove into the intimacy you said
(08:33):
that word with Vineyard, theintimacy, the intimacy.
The lamb, the intimacy of thebloody lamb, you know.
And so yeah, and that's wherewe need the balance, because the
authority is in the intimacy.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
There was so much power in it.
It was power that wasn't.
It wasn't a forceful power.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It was tangible Because the power is in the
intimacy.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Oh, the power was in the intimacy With the lamb, with
the lamb.
I could see how he couldconquer a wolf With the lamb.
Yeah, he could just swallow awolf up, yeah.
Or wolf With the lamb yeah, hejust swallowed the wolf up.
Yeah, the presence of the lamb,the beauty of that, was holy
yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So the declarations, all of that is necessary.
It's in there to reveal, tomove us into intimacy.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It's in there to reveal, to move us into intimacy
, but that alone would bestopping short.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, and I think what happens and I'll go so far
as to say, and I've just beenDavid tasked me with his group
is what he said last night thiswould be a word is that when
Samuel, so Saul comes up, theywant a king, human nature, right
, right, god raises up a prophetwho will raise up the school of
(09:52):
the prophets, one of them beingDavid.
Right, anoints David as king.
So they want Saul, the tall,good-looking war leader, right,
so he gives them that.
So that's how God fixes that.
And with that, you know, it's abit of human nature.
So, with what I find what thisdoes, it's almost if we don't
(10:20):
move into that place of intimacy, then our warfare will be
striving, possibly Stay in aplace of striving and never move
into a place of surrender inour lives.
Because I'm going to jump on,I'm going to dovetail here to
another thing.
I that the other day.
But so so connor, if you knowconnor, my son, you know
(10:41):
connor's here, by the way, he is.
He's doing awesome in hisjourney.
So he has gotten to a place ofextreme healing from where
everybody said he would never be.
You know, know that he'd beinstitutionalized, but he's
gotten to this place over thepast eight years of dramatic
healing and over the past yearor so, it's almost as if he was
(11:02):
getting worse, not physically,but as I saw him, he was not
happy.
He was, you know, not happy,overly anxious, just all this
stuff.
And he doesn't mind me talkingabout him because I'm watching,
you know, as a dad, you know,and I'm wondering, and then I
could apply this to my own life.
But it was that we talked abouthow we have defined words that
(11:28):
the early church would haveunderstood, understood, and
we've defined them through.
You know that the system, thegreek roman system, that came in
in 350 and really never left,you know luther was still a
product of that.
You know everybody got the wordbut there was still that and it
hasn't left yet.
(11:48):
You know, uh, and I believe,going forward, over, over, over
the next, you know years and on,however long it takes, that we
will move into that.
I believe that's the next placefor God's people.
So, that being said, to me it'simportant and to the people
that I lead, if you will, andteach that we, as David knows,
(12:10):
we study these things.
So I'm watching Connor and asI'm studying, and as I'm
studying, grace, the word grace.
So grace is the effectual powerof God in my life.
Okay, so by grace, throughfaith, I'm saved.
Okay, so, by the effectualpower of God in my life.
(12:30):
So I was always taught thatgrace was unmerited, favor, that
I got what I didn't deserve andmercy I didn't get what I did
deserve.
Okay, and just hush up andbelieve that.
Okay, Cause that's what it is.
You know you didn't deserve tobe saved, but you believe, so
you got it.
You know Well, and and it doesmean that you know what I mean.
(12:50):
I didn't deserve it, so I'm notarguing that, but it actually
means the effectual power, grace.
You know the word C-H-A-I-R-O is.
You know it is.
So the other day I was thinkingthat we have really kind of
(13:15):
moved.
The word mystic has become abad word in the church.
I love the word that, and I dotoo, and you know we do, because
and I think the early churchthey were mystics.
They weren't executives, youknow they were.
You know everything Paul wroteabout eldership and deacons, and
everything was based onrelationship, both vertical to
(13:37):
the Lord and horizontal with hispeople.
It wasn't based on functionalgifting or the ability to
execute things right, and so allof those things as we moved
into a new model.
But I just want to stick withgrace because it works.
I'm going to tie it into whatwe're talking about.
So where the Lord took me wasthe thorn in Paul's flesh and in
our flesh.
(13:57):
It's not there for us to removeit or to write a million
commentaries about what was thethorn.
Okay, it's there.
It's a divine opportunity forus to understand what grace
really means, and what it meansis the effectual power of God in
our hearts and his power overdarkness being made perfect, as
we agree.
(14:18):
And let him do that.
So Paul's got this messengerfrom Satan, can't get rid of it.
You know this person who hadbeen to heaven changing the
world he and Silas, you know.
And he's got this messengerfrom Satan three times.
He can't get rid of it.
God, take it from him.
I can't get rid of it.
Would you ask him three times?
Would you take it from me?
And God's going to teach him alesson here and we want to
(14:41):
figure out what's the thorn.
Was it his blindness?
Was it this?
Was it anxiety?
With the Judaizers, on and on.
And what God's trying to teachhim is okay, paul, I'm not
removing the thorn.
What I'm going to do is let youlearn that my effectual power
working in you is sufficient forall of this, and as soon as you
(15:03):
just give up my power, thatpower will be made perfect in
your weakness.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Which is what you're talking about, gentleness
weakness.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Okay, which is what you're talking about, gentleness
.
And so I believe, by thepropensity to emphasize the lion
over the lamb, the bloody lamb,slain is the lion.
The lion is still kind ofrunning things.
You know, there's still a bitof striving and movement.
I still got.
You know, I'm still kind ofmoving this thing.
If you will, and I'm justtalking about myself, I'm still
(15:39):
moving this thing.
Even though I'm saying all theright stuff, I'm still the lamb,
the bloody lamb, as I have justlaid down, and been slaughtered
and died.
I surrender, you know Isurrender and I can't do
anything.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
There's something so powerful, so unnatural, the Lord
comes on that right there.
Yeah, so that's where I want todo this, Tracy.
Let's say you got five minutesof your life to say something
(16:12):
that's just.
You're going to cap this thingoff in five minutes.
Somebody's listening right nowright, I say this by the
understanding of the Lord.
Somebody's listening to thisright now and they need to hear
(16:42):
a word that's just encapsulatingwhat we've shared, and is there
something that you could conveythat?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
would sum up what you've shared.
Yeah, I think so.
So there are people and I canspeak to myself here, so I'm not
preaching to you, I'll preachwith you.
There are people.
There are some of you, many ofyou, all of us who are striving
to see something happensomewhere somehow in our lives.
(17:12):
Okay, we are following God, weare serving God, but we're
running up against stuff that wewant to move out of the way.
Okay, we just do it needs to bemoved out of the way.
Whether it's health, whetherit's financial, whether it's
church stuff, relational stuff,you know, whatever it is,
(17:33):
whether it's Connor wanting totalk and move into this next
place of healing, okay, there'sstuff that we all need to go
further.
And then human nature is todeclare and decree, and I'm not
saying, stop doing that, buthuman nature is that we declare
and we decree and we fight.
Okay, and we fight.
(17:53):
And jesus came and just turnedthat all upside down and and
most of what he said wascontrary to human nature.
You know, he came around as abloody lamb, slain from the
foundation of the world, and thegentleness of that lamb there's
(18:14):
a love comes into this, butwhat I'm going to say is the
authority my dream was about andwhere the Lord has taken me and
has really gotten me into amuch more tender place than I've
ever been in my life, is thatnow, when there's a problem, and
Connor finally understood aboutfive days ago, we did this and
(18:36):
he gave up on all that.
So he's not going to try totalk, he's not going to try to
be healed, god's grace.
So I just want anybodylistening here.
I'm just going to say thisWhatever the thorn is, okay, the
thorn is not there so that youcan decree and declare it out.
You know asking God to keepremoving it.
But you can decree and declareit out.
You know asking God to keepremoving it.
The lesson is that his grace,his effectual, not his.
(19:01):
You don't deserve it, but Imight do it if your faith is
strong enough.
Not that okay.
His grace, his, the way, theword, what the word really means
, his effectual power working inyour heart is sufficient for
whatever you are battling rightnow and to the extent you can
(19:24):
just let go of the fight andsurrender, his power will be
made perfect.
To the extent that you will beweak and you'll see dramatic and
incredible healing, and Ibelieve, through time, as we
study the saints that have doneamazing things for the kingdom
of God before and after in theearly church, you're going to
(19:48):
find you know, we've heard a lotof language for it laid-down
lovers, we've got all thischarismatic language, but you're
going to find people who hadcome to the revelation and the
inner place of the power of God,expressed and demonstrated from
before the foundation of theworld through eternity, and now
(20:12):
in the bloody lamb known asJesus Christ powerful, powerful,
powerful.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
There's a Eternity and now in the bloody lamb known
as Jesus Christ, powerful,powerful, powerful.
There's a.
There's we, we honor Jesus, wehonor Jesus, we honor Jesus.
But also Tracy, there's a.
There's a term called IshElohim.
Ish Elohim means man of God.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
And it pertains to a prophetic man of God, and I want
you to know that I consider youto be an Ish Elohim.
I hadn't heard that.
I want you to know that Iconsider you to be an Ish Elohim
.
You are a man of God thatcarries a prophetic along with
(21:01):
other things, along with otherthings, but in this instance,
you carry a prophetic word andyou're hosting the glory of the
Lord and you are an Ish Elohim.
And so, as a man of God, wouldyou just kind of encapsulate
this in a word of prayer andthen we'll say goodbye.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, father, just thank you for everybody that
would take, everyone that wouldtake the time to listen to this,
everyone that would take thetime to receive this and search
their own hearts, that yourgrace would be made known.
The sufficiency of your gracewill be made known to everyone
(21:52):
that hears power of your body isgoing to move in, as we
understand that everything thatneeds to be done for victory has
been done and we reallyunderstand that, and I thank you
for David and this podcast, forDavid's health and his family's
health, and we just want tobless every listener of Life
(22:12):
Around the Fire bless everylistener of life around the fire
.
And again, fire falls on thesacrifice, not on the altar.
So I just thank you, father,that we could embrace
sacrificial lives wherever youwould call us to sacrifice and
lay down our lives completely,that we would do that.
That you give everyone courageto do that so that they could
(22:36):
have the fire of God In.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Jesus' name.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
In Jesus Christ's name, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Once again, folks, as much as we can be, we're here
for you and, for sure, if youhave any thoughts, questions,
concerns, you can drop us a lineat lifearoundthefire, at
gmailcom.
That's our email address, andif you're just interested in
(23:05):
seeing our blog and some worshipmusic and some of the things
that we're adding to our website, just type in lifearoundthefire
and we'd love to hear from you.
Yeah, in the meantime, godbless you, adios amigos.
All right, folks, welcome back.
We're going to do kind of apart two of this series.
We're calling it a series, butthe first portion that Tracy
shared was really the that'sreally the lion's share of the
word that God gave to him, punintended, and the lambbs share
(00:24):
on that one.
But we're going to have a littlebit more of an open forum, a
little question and discussiontime.
We've done this before and itseems to flow pretty good.
And so, tracy, concerning thisaspect of and you touched in on
(00:48):
it and I think it's important totouch in on it personally again
a little bit and that is thatcertain things they sell books,
they sell tapes they can bemarketed, and I don't think
(01:10):
that's all wrong.
I think there's a place forthings to be sold and people
have materials that they put intheir hands.
But there also is somethingabout having a shtick and, uh, I
really think that you did us agood service by just emphasizing
the fact that that is apendulum that's been swinging
(01:33):
back and forth.
You know how it goes, andsometimes we, the pendulum
swings and you're right in themiddle and everything's good,
but then it can swing a littlebit over middle and everything's
good, but then it could swing alittle bit over, and I think
(01:56):
that there's a danger in hasbeen a danger in using the line
as a marketing tool.
Is that a fair assessment or amI taking that a little bit too
far?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
No, I think I believe I've seen that, you know, I've
seen it more and you have too.
Yeah, prophetic Worship andWarfare Conference, you know,
for the last 30 years or so, andthis you know, all spiritual,
the lion being the emblem.
But I want to, I don't knowthat, if it's, I don't know that
it's so conscious, you know, Idon't know that it's so
conscious, you know, because itis.
(02:25):
At times we wind up.
You know, I bet, as we havethis discussion and I said, the
only time the Lion of the tribeof Judah is mentioned is once in
Revelation 5, I bet a lot ofpeople who have been in church a
long time may scratch theirhead at that because of the
amount of times and the emphasisthey've seen on that, and maybe
(02:48):
not.
I could be wrong.
So I think what happens is overtime even.
That's why I mentioned themiddle ages and how that you
know that fed into it the needof humanity.
Even when the, when matthaijesus came, you know, right to
the very end, they, they werelike wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You know he was supposed to come as the
conquering lion.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And they had some, you know, they had all the lamb
stuff, but in their mind, underthe Roman oppression, their need
was for the conquering, youknow, for Messiah was for the
conquering, you know, forMessiah, you know, and the
oppressed Jews for all thoseyears was someone who would take
them out of their physicaloppression and then in the
(03:31):
Middle Ages, as that became, Ithink it kind of gets into our,
literally, into our culture andinto our subconscious, you know,
and then it starts, and whenthat happens it actually moves
people.
So yeah, so what marketing isbased on?
Moving people?
That's what it's designed forit's made on you know.
(03:53):
So you know good preachingmoves people, and so, with that
being said, yeah, I don't wantto accuse people of being
marketers.
I think that we recognize and Igo back to this caused me to
want to repent.
In other words, how can I livea more balanced life?
(04:16):
How can I balance this out more?
Jeannie really expresses thelamb much more than the lion in
worship.
It's powerful if you thinkabout it, and I'm not saying
that's good or bad.
She could probably use more ofthe push.
So I'm always thinking aboutwhat that looks like in
(04:38):
application and there will bepeople maybe on this podcast and
going forward that we'll nailin on that.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Well, I think it's healthy.
I think it's healthy toacknowledge, if there's a need
to bring about some change,repentance.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, and I think that's where the key is, because
what I see is going back.
It was interesting why the Oldchurch?
Because we want to go back tothe book of Acts church and I
believe we are, you know, in2025.
God's the same yesterday, todayand forever.
So you know, so we will.
So to go back to the earlychurch means we go back to their
(05:19):
, the original doctrines.
What is it Breaking?
Bread, communion, fellowshipand the apostles' doctrine,
which was what Love of Jesus, ofJesus, taught.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Because it was so fresh Well, I mean talk about
fresh, he had just ascended,basically, and so the time frame
in which that was taking placeand the emphasis that you
presented through the firstthree centuries was more so.
(06:00):
Concerning the lamb Was thelamb, yeah, and the shepherd?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And the shepherd carrying the lamb.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, and the shepherd Carrying the lamb, the
shepherd carrying the lamb, yeah.
And there's something I know Icame into contact with this
personally in the 80s, mid-80s.
I came in touch with a realgentleness in the area of
worship and it happened to be inthe context of the vineyard,
(06:24):
the vineyard, yeah, the vineyard, the area of worship, and it
happened to be in the context ofthe vineyard, the vineyard,
yeah, the vineyard, the Father'sheart, and it was extraordinary
, yeah, oh, and it was quiet andit was gentle, but it was so
powerful, I mean powerful God'spresence, so he hovered on that
he came upon it and we werehosting his glory.
(06:45):
And it wasn't.
Sometimes it was exuberant yes,yes and yes, but other times it
was almost tearful.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And it was a new thing oh to me.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I was undone.
What was that?
The 80s?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Mid-80s for me.
Yeah, mid-80s for me, mid-80s,yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And then into the early 90s, and then spiritual
warfare then became a littlemore in vogue for a bit, and
then the prophetic movement kindof took a swing that was a
little more aggressive in itsapproach toward addressing
things.
Addressing things, and all thatbeing said, though, that the,
(07:33):
the vision that you had, again,that was, you didn't my
understanding.
You just seek that out.
Oh no, no, no, it wasn't likeyou're trying to traffic a,
something rarely happens ITravacate something.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, I bet it is Rarely happens.
I wouldn't mind it happeningagain.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
But yeah, it was but it was that it rocked me.
Yeah, yeah, it rocked you, andto this day, would you say that
the effect of that rings throughand it's coming around again.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes, and so I love what you were saying, what you
were saying there, and I thinkwhat it speaks to a lot of, it
speaks to the need for both, butthe in a warfare, the exhale or
, if you will, the roar, theline, line of the tribe of
judiblically, I think, reveal ormove into the intimacy you said
(08:33):
that word with Vineyard, theintimacy, the intimacy.
The lamb, the intimacy of thebloody lamb, you know.
And so yeah, and that's wherewe need the balance, because the
authority is in the intimacy.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
There was so much power in it.
It was power that wasn't.
It wasn't a forceful power.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It was tangible Because the power is in the
intimacy.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Oh, the power was in the intimacy With the lamb, with
the lamb.
I could see how he couldconquer a wolf With the lamb.
Yeah, he could just swallow awolf up, yeah.
Or wolf With the lamb yeah, hejust swallowed the wolf up.
Yeah, the presence of the lamb,the beauty of that, was holy
yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So the declarations, all of that is necessary.
It's in there to reveal, tomove us into intimacy.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It's in there to reveal, to move us into intimacy
, but that alone would bestopping short.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, and I think what happens and I'll go so far
as to say, and I've just beenDavid tasked me with his group
is what he said last night thiswould be a word is that when
Samuel, so Saul comes up, theywant a king, human nature, right
, right, god raises up a prophetwho will raise up the school of
(09:52):
the prophets, one of them beingDavid.
Right, anoints David as king.
So they want Saul, the tall,good-looking war leader, right,
so he gives them that.
So that's how God fixes that.
And with that, you know, it's abit of human nature.
So, with what I find what thisdoes, it's almost if we don't
(10:20):
move into that place of intimacy, then our warfare will be
striving, possibly Stay in aplace of striving and never move
into a place of surrender inour lives.
Because I'm going to jump on,I'm going to dovetail here to
another thing.
I that the other day.
But so so connor, if you knowconnor, my son, you know
(10:41):
connor's here, by the way, he is.
He's doing awesome in hisjourney.
So he has gotten to a place ofextreme healing from where
everybody said he would never be.
You know, know that he'd beinstitutionalized, but he's
gotten to this place over thepast eight years of dramatic
healing and over the past yearor so, it's almost as if he was
(11:02):
getting worse, not physically,but as I saw him, he was not
happy.
He was, you know, not happy,overly anxious, just all this
stuff.
And he doesn't mind me talkingabout him because I'm watching,
you know, as a dad, you know,and I'm wondering, and then I
could apply this to my own life.
But it was that we talked abouthow we have defined words that
(11:28):
the early church would haveunderstood, understood, and
we've defined them through.
You know that the system, thegreek roman system, that came in
in 350 and really never left,you know luther was still a
product of that.
You know everybody got the wordbut there was still that and it
hasn't left yet.
(11:48):
You know, uh, and I believe,going forward, over, over, over
the next, you know years and on,however long it takes, that we
will move into that.
I believe that's the next placefor God's people.
So, that being said, to me it'simportant and to the people
that I lead, if you will, andteach that we, as David knows,
(12:10):
we study these things.
So I'm watching Connor and asI'm studying, and as I'm
studying, grace, the word grace.
So grace is the effectual powerof God in my life.
Okay, so by grace, throughfaith, I'm saved.
Okay, so, by the effectualpower of God in my life.
(12:30):
So I was always taught thatgrace was unmerited, favor, that
I got what I didn't deserve andmercy I didn't get what I did
deserve.
Okay, and just hush up andbelieve that.
Okay, Cause that's what it is.
You know you didn't deserve tobe saved, but you believe, so
you got it.
You know Well, and and it doesmean that you know what I mean.
(12:50):
I didn't deserve it, so I'm notarguing that, but it actually
means the effectual power, grace.
You know the word C-H-A-I-R-O is.
You know it is.
So the other day I was thinkingthat we have really kind of
(13:15):
moved.
The word mystic has become abad word in the church.
I love the word that, and I dotoo, and you know we do, because
and I think the early churchthey were mystics.
They weren't executives, youknow they were.
You know everything Paul wroteabout eldership and deacons, and
everything was based onrelationship, both vertical to
(13:37):
the Lord and horizontal with hispeople.
It wasn't based on functionalgifting or the ability to
execute things right, and so allof those things as we moved
into a new model.
But I just want to stick withgrace because it works.
I'm going to tie it into whatwe're talking about.
So where the Lord took me wasthe thorn in Paul's flesh and in
our flesh.
(13:57):
It's not there for us to removeit or to write a million
commentaries about what was thethorn.
Okay, it's there.
It's a divine opportunity forus to understand what grace
really means, and what it meansis the effectual power of God in
our hearts and his power overdarkness being made perfect, as
we agree.
(14:18):
And let him do that.
So Paul's got this messengerfrom Satan, can't get rid of it.
You know this person who hadbeen to heaven changing the
world he and Silas, you know.
And he's got this messengerfrom Satan three times.
He can't get rid of it.
God, take it from him.
I can't get rid of it.
Would you ask him three times?
Would you take it from me?
And God's going to teach him alesson here and we want to
(14:41):
figure out what's the thorn.
Was it his blindness?
Was it this?
Was it anxiety?
With the Judaizers, on and on.
And what God's trying to teachhim is okay, paul, I'm not
removing the thorn.
What I'm going to do is let youlearn that my effectual power
working in you is sufficient forall of this, and as soon as you
(15:03):
just give up my power, thatpower will be made perfect in
your weakness.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Which is what you're talking about, gentleness
weakness.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Okay, which is what you're talking about, gentleness
.
And so I believe, by thepropensity to emphasize the lion
over the lamb, the bloody lamb,slain is the lion.
The lion is still kind ofrunning things.
You know, there's still a bitof striving and movement.
I still got.
You know, I'm still kind ofmoving this thing.
If you will, and I'm justtalking about myself, I'm still
(15:39):
moving this thing.
Even though I'm saying all theright stuff, I'm still the lamb,
the bloody lamb, as I have justlaid down, and been slaughtered
and died.
I surrender, you know Isurrender and I can't do
anything.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
There's something so powerful, so unnatural, the Lord
comes on that right there.
Yeah, so that's where I want todo this, Tracy.
Let's say you got five minutesof your life to say something
(16:12):
that's just.
You're going to cap this thingoff in five minutes.
Somebody's listening right nowright, I say this by the
understanding of the Lord.
Somebody's listening to thisright now and they need to hear
(16:42):
a word that's just encapsulatingwhat we've shared, and is there
something that you could conveythat?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
would sum up what you've shared.
Yeah, I think so.
So there are people and I canspeak to myself here, so I'm not
preaching to you, I'll preachwith you.
There are people.
There are some of you, many ofyou, all of us who are striving
to see something happensomewhere somehow in our lives.
(17:12):
Okay, we are following God, weare serving God, but we're
running up against stuff that wewant to move out of the way.
Okay, we just do it needs to bemoved out of the way.
Whether it's health, whetherit's financial, whether it's
church stuff, relational stuff,you know, whatever it is,
(17:33):
whether it's Connor wanting totalk and move into this next
place of healing, okay, there'sstuff that we all need to go
further.
And then human nature is todeclare and decree, and I'm not
saying, stop doing that, buthuman nature is that we declare
and we decree and we fight.
Okay, and we fight.
(17:53):
And jesus came and just turnedthat all upside down and and
most of what he said wascontrary to human nature.
You know, he came around as abloody lamb, slain from the
foundation of the world, and thegentleness of that lamb there's
(18:14):
a love comes into this, butwhat I'm going to say is the
authority my dream was about andwhere the Lord has taken me and
has really gotten me into amuch more tender place than I've
ever been in my life, is thatnow, when there's a problem, and
Connor finally understood aboutfive days ago, we did this and
(18:36):
he gave up on all that.
So he's not going to try totalk, he's not going to try to
be healed, god's grace.
So I just want anybodylistening here.
I'm just going to say thisWhatever the thorn is, okay, the
thorn is not there so that youcan decree and declare it out.
You know asking God to keepremoving it.
But you can decree and declareit out.
You know asking God to keepremoving it.
The lesson is that his grace,his effectual, not his.
(19:01):
You don't deserve it, but Imight do it if your faith is
strong enough.
Not that okay.
His grace, his, the way, theword, what the word really means
, his effectual power working inyour heart is sufficient for
whatever you are battling rightnow and to the extent you can
(19:24):
just let go of the fight andsurrender, his power will be
made perfect.
To the extent that you will beweak and you'll see dramatic and
incredible healing, and Ibelieve, through time, as we
study the saints that have doneamazing things for the kingdom
of God before and after in theearly church, you're going to
(19:48):
find you know, we've heard a lotof language for it laid-down
lovers, we've got all thischarismatic language, but you're
going to find people who hadcome to the revelation and the
inner place of the power of God,expressed and demonstrated from
before the foundation of theworld through eternity, and now
(20:12):
in the bloody lamb known asJesus Christ powerful, powerful,
powerful.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
There's a Eternity and now in the bloody lamb known
as Jesus Christ, powerful,powerful, powerful.
There's a.
There's we, we honor Jesus, wehonor Jesus, we honor Jesus.
But also Tracy, there's a.
There's a term called IshElohim.
Ish Elohim means man of God.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
And it pertains to a prophetic man of God, and I want
you to know that I consider youto be an Ish Elohim.
I hadn't heard that.
I want you to know that Iconsider you to be an Ish Elohim
.
You are a man of God thatcarries a prophetic along with
(21:01):
other things, along with otherthings, but in this instance,
you carry a prophetic word andyou're hosting the glory of the
Lord and you are an Ish Elohim.
And so, as a man of God, wouldyou just kind of encapsulate
this in a word of prayer andthen we'll say goodbye.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, father, just thank you for everybody that
would take, everyone that wouldtake the time to listen to this,
everyone that would take thetime to receive this and search
their own hearts, that yourgrace would be made known.
The sufficiency of your gracewill be made known to everyone
(21:52):
that hears power of your body isgoing to move in, as we
understand that everything thatneeds to be done for victory has
been done and we reallyunderstand that, and I thank you
for David and this podcast, forDavid's health and his family's
health, and we just want tobless every listener of Life
(22:12):
Around the Fire bless everylistener of life around the fire
.
And again, fire falls on thesacrifice, not on the altar.
So I just thank you, father,that we could embrace
sacrificial lives wherever youwould call us to sacrifice and
lay down our lives completely,that we would do that.
That you give everyone courageto do that so that they could
(22:36):
have the fire of God In.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Jesus' name.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
In Jesus Christ's name, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Once again, folks, as much as we can be, we're here
for you and, for sure, if youhave any thoughts, questions,
concerns, you can drop us a lineat lifearoundthefire, at
gmailcom.
That's our email address, andif you're just interested in
(23:05):
seeing our blog and some worshipmusic and some of the things
that we're adding to our website, just type in lifearoundthefire
and we'd love to hear from you.
Yeah, in the meantime, godbless you, adios amigos.
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