What happens when our worship emphasizes the conquering Lion but neglects the sacrificial Lamb? Tracy Perez joins us to share a profound vision that challenged his understanding of Christology and worship practice.
The conversation begins with Tracy describing an extraordinary spiritual experience where he witnessed three snarling wolves attempting to break through ancient wooden doors, while inside stood a blood-covered lamb that would ultimately destroy them. This vision launched him into a deeper exploration of how we've potentially created an unbalanced view of Christ in contemporary worship culture.
Through scriptural examination, Tracy points out that the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" appears only once in Scripture—in Revelation 5—where interestingly, the Lion immediately reveals the Lamb who was slain. Meanwhile, lamb imagery permeates the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. He shares fascinating historical research showing how the early church emphasized sacrificial lamb imagery for its first three centuries, with the lion imagery only becoming dominant during the age of Constantine and later during the Crusades.
The discussion delves into how music and art shape theology, challenging listeners to consider whether our worship practices reflect a balanced understanding of Christ's nature. Tracy vulnerably shares how this revelation required personal repentance and a shift in his own thinking, despite his deep roots in the worship movement. His powerful statement—"If the roaring lion doesn't reveal the lamb, we may be revealing the wrong lion"—offers a thought-provoking challenge to worship leaders, pastors, and believers everywhere.
Whether you're involved in worship ministry or simply seeking a deeper understanding of Christ's nature, this conversation will challenge you to reconsider how we perceive and present Jesus in our contemporary Christian experience. Join us for this reverent yet revolutionary conversation about restoring balance to our Christology.
Loving Yeshua/Jesus, Loving people... Come as you are and you will be loved!
Feel free to check out our website by typing in lifearoundthefire.com or Life Around The Fire ... We think you'll find some beneficial stuff to look at and apply to your life.
Shalom to you and your home.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Folks, I want to welcome you as you tune into
this particular podcast episode.
I've been looking forward tothis for, actually, for Tracy
Perez to bring really what Iconsider to be an international
(00:33):
word of God from God to beexperienced to us and through us
, and so, tracy, I want towelcome you once again.
Again, you're not a newcomerhere, so we love you and I'm
(00:53):
going to let you give any kindof backdrop and background to
what you're going to be sharing,and then you just feel free to
go from there.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, thank you, david, good to be here and well,
that prayer right before thiswas powerful.
So the Lord is in the room, hisinspiration.
So I had sent this probably twoweeks ago I think two weeks ago
or so, two weeks ago, and I'llgo in with the back story but I
sent David just.
I was inspired, I was inspiredand that word has really been
(01:29):
amplified to me these daysInspiration, inspiration.
And all the way over here onthe drive I was hearing
Revelation 19.10,.
The testimony of Jesus is thespirit of prophecy and, as we
have been, you know, old wayfellowship and if you've heard
me on the podcast and David is aleader in that, in that group,
(01:55):
that we, you know, for a coupleof years and it's still going,
even though we haven't beenmeeting on Fridays, but we are
again and it it moved into ameeting where we really were,
quite by accident, but butseeking revelation on what the
early church operated in the oldway.
If you will, you know we'vetalked for years about let's go,
we want to.
You know the charismatic church, we want a book of Acts church.
(02:16):
You know let's do that, and youknow Pentecost and the fire and
everything and we do.
But you know, I don't know thatwe've had it.
We've had pieces of it but wehaven't had it and I don't know
that we will have it until wehave a really thorough
understanding of what itactually was.
And to do that, as hard as itmay sound, I believe there has
(02:39):
to be a deconstruction of typeof the Greco-Roman system that's
been in place.
And so, you know, there's adeconstruction kind of going on
now in the church, where thecharismatic church, you know,
where we're kind of fightingeach other and it's really just.
It really isn't thedeconstruction that's necessary.
I'm not saying exposure is notnecessary, but a deconstruction
(03:02):
in the sense that what we'vebeen doing at Old Way Fellowship
is seeking revelation of whatthe Old Way was.
So we've done podcasts on Olam,on Exousia right and Dunamis
Authority.
We've done Spirit Realm.
You know most of the podcasts.
We've done David together were,you know, on the Office of the
Prophet?
We're on those lines together.
We're you know, on the officeof the prophet.
(03:23):
We're on those lines.
So on the way here and allmorning I was asking the Lord
about.
You know, this inspired whatinspired me with what we're
going to share in the podcasttoday.
And the inspiration, literally,the word is to be breathed on.
Inspire.
When we inspire, we, you knowto breathe in.
(03:44):
Expire, we breathe out.
You know, if we expire withoutinspiring then we're dead right.
But inspiration, and so for usinspiration is literally as we
make ourselves available to thewind of God for revelation.
And what I've been finding iseight months that we've not had
Old Way Fellows way, fellowship.
(04:04):
And I've been on the farm.
We've.
We've raised three geese andthree ducks from little bitties,
little bitties, to five monthsold.
You know huge squawking.
We've got three kittens that wetook from just being weaned
into barn cats.
Now, at six months old, we'vegot we had started with five
deer, three doe on the propertyand we have three fawns that are
(04:25):
two months old.
And as I've watched that day inand day out and just kind of
living in that with the Lord,I'm getting very inspired and
the more I agree with something.
For instance, we had twoperegrine falcons show up on the
property and I'm not going togo there because I want to get
(04:47):
to this, but it's important whatI say because it has to do with
where this comes from and whereeverything's coming from these
days.
So these peregrine falcons showup on the property.
I really have not seen a lot ofperegrine falcons.
I'm a guy that sees hawks allthe time.
I see eagles not a lot.
I notice them maybe when othersdon't.
(05:09):
Swallowtail kite important thingI'm thinking about With Jeannie
and I we're texting aboutsomething really important and
swallowtail kite circlesoverhead and that is a regular
thing with us for years and I'vealways wondered is that weird?
Is that that something?
And what I've learned is I havecelebrated those things.
Romans, 120 god's invisibleattributes are clearly known by
(05:31):
that which he's created and whenI celebrate his create him, I
don't worship the creation.
That's where they went wrong,if you remember.
But when I celebrate him inthose things, then he gives me
more and the more I celebrate it.
Or if you could, you could usethe word, agree with it that
it's him.
(05:52):
So the Peregrine Falcons youknow I celebrate them and next
thing, you know they're comingaround all the time.
And then it's leading me toAugustine, a hippo, and
Peregrination and the Celtics.
You know the Celtic saints andthe desert fathers who
Peregrination was a lifestyle of.
You know anyway, that would beanother podcast, but this, this
(06:12):
came about the same way as I'vebeen in that mindset at the farm
for about eight months.
So I shared this dream at OlwayFellowship in June of 2023.
So two years ago and I had inJune of 2023, so two years ago
and I had in June of 2023, we'regoing to move right into that,
and so what I was telling Davidis Revelation 19.10, the
(06:32):
testimony of Jesus is the spiritof prophecy.
Well, when we did the podcaston the office of the prophet, we
talked about function and wetalked about a lot of things,
but we really brought forth thatprophecy is more New Testament.
Prophecy is more foretellingbringing people into you know.
(06:54):
It's more about telling you whoyou are in God than what you
need to do than what you need todo.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Not predicting, but proclaiming.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yes, and there is foretelling It'll happen, but it
really is.
New Testament prophecy reallyis to foretell, to encourage,
comfort and exhort as you bringpeople into their destiny, as
you carry them forth as prophetsor leaders in the fivefold
ministry.
And so, as we think of theforetelling, it hit me today
that what we're going to sharetoday and this is preface is the
(07:25):
testimony of Jesus.
As I see Jesus in these thingsthat happen, the more I agree
with that, the more God breatheson that for me.
Yeah, that's good, and he keepsbreathing.
And then I agree with that andI say this is something, this is
you, and then he gives me more.
To those who have, more will begiven, and to those who don't,
(07:46):
even that will be taken away,and somehow that will fit.
So, yeah, I wanted to say that,because I believe that's what is
happening here, that we canunderstand the testimony of
Jesus, we can understand thespirit of prophecy and what we
agree in, and then it willincrease our inspiration, which
(08:08):
will be increasing revelationfor all of us, increase,
increase of revelation andinspiration, as we actually
realize that's important,instead of just waiting for our
Sunday meetings or Wednesdaymeetings or a great speaker, or
you know what I mean, or what Imean or what have you to be
inspired, that we really lookfor that inspiration.
(08:29):
You know On a more daily basis,all the time.
You know and then recognize andsay, oh yeah, I see you in that
Lord.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And then Someone's called a shoe leather.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Shoe leather.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
yeah, and you know back in the Shoe leather where
you put your feet to it right Inthe mid-1800s I'll go.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
There is the people who you know, sigmund Freud and
Carl Jung, who establishedmodern-day psychology, which we
don't need a part of that, butthey had a phrase called
synchronicity.
It was a very real thing and itreally is the principle we're
talking about right now.
That, as you agreed with thingsfrom the subconscious or from
that realm that it moved theminto the physical realm
(09:12):
Absolutely Synchronicity,absolutely true.
So they're taking the spiritualprinciple, the spirit of
prophecy, testimony of Jesus,right is the spirit of prophecy.
So they're taking that, youknow again.
So it is true.
So in 2023, we're firing, guys,we are firing today.
(09:33):
So, and I just our prayer wasthat this whole thing would be
taken with the love that isintended.
I am very connected regionallyand nationally with the worship
movement and worship leaders,and so some of this that applies
there.
Guys, just wait till the veryend, because it's meant with a
(09:55):
spirit of love.
It really is, the whole thingis.
So in June of 2023, I had whatcan only be described as a
vision.
I thought that it was a dream,but as I looked around, I could
see my room and I knew I wasawake.
There were two tall,ancient-looking wooden doors
that opened in the center, and Isay ancient because of the iron
(10:16):
supports and the timber.
It was literally like big fortdoors that you see in old movies
or pictures, like large woodengates leading in and out of a
fort, and somehow I was watchingthis and I was also inside the
doors.
On the outside of the doorswere three huge wolves and they
literally were like.
(10:36):
I mean, they were big, theirteeth were bared, dripping out
of their fangs.
You know it was a reallyviolent set of three wolves
snarling to get in through thesedoors.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
It was a dream or a vision.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
A vision.
I thought it was a dream, butas I looked, I realized I was
awake because I could see aroundme, and I'm still seeing this
stuff.
So this only happened, guys, acouple of times in my life, and
not recently.
This was June of 2023, at aboutone o'clock in the morning, and
so and I shared this at Old Waya few times, you probably
(11:14):
remember, and, but I didn't,I'll go into that so they were
snarling with their teeth,determined to get inside with me
.
On the inside of the doors Was alamb, small lamb, covered in
blood.
I knew that these wolves wereabout to come through these
ancient doors and just as surelyI knew that as soon as they
(11:36):
came through, they were comingfor me, but as soon as they came
through, that this littlebloody lamb was going to utterly
destroy them.
I just knew that the lamb, thelamb that was on the inside of
the door's, bloody lamb, whichwas kind of with me, and they
were trying to get into thedoors for destruction, whether
it was me, and I knew the doorswere about to open the lamb was
(12:00):
going to open the doors, letthem in and he would destroy
them.
I knew that the bloody lambRight, would destroy these
wolves on the outside, yeah, andI just knew that.
I knew he would destroy them.
And just as this was about tohappen, I came out of the vision
I went into.
What I can only say is, for theonly time in my life, I was
(12:21):
caught up into a white light.
And I didn't go to heavennecessarily, but I was with the
Lord in a white light.
I knew he was holding me.
I literally felt like I wassucked up.
I felt like I'd gone up in atube.
I could feel it and youprobably remember me sharing
this at Old Wake and it was realvulnerable for me to share that
(12:41):
.
And it was real vulnerable forme to share that.
It was unlike anything I'veever experienced.
And I came out of this wantingmore understanding of the power
and nature of the bloody lamb.
And I had more understanding,but I wanted to know more of the
bloody lamb in warfare and, asthat happened, even at Old Way
(13:03):
Fellowship, again in the worshipmovement, as I would try to, as
I would share this, all aroundme were prophetic voices
nationally.
I mean, there was a lot.
There was a lot of stuff, a lotof words, more words about the
lion of the tribe of Judah andthe roar, than there was the
(13:23):
bloody lamb and it seemed, whenI would share the Bloody Lamb,
it really didn't seem to have.
You know, it's having impactnow, but it didn't seem to me to
quite have.
The impact Didn't have thatmuch traction then.
It didn't seem to as much asthe lion, right.
So I just kind of sat on it.
I just asked the Lord help mewith this.
(13:44):
Okay, I moved right out of theencounter with that into a dream
which was about SmithWigglesworth being behind me.
A spiritual son that had beenestranged from us comes in and I
would have the choice of eitherwelcome him in or not, after a
huge betrayal.
And as it was that all came topass, we welcomed him in trail.
(14:07):
And as it was that all came topass, we welcomed him in.
And so there's so much on thatdream that I shared, and it was
also about a harvest that'sgoing to come in.
The dream was so, it was alltied into about two hours, and
so I believe that the revelationof the bloody lamb and the
Moravians had it, but therevelation of the bloody lamb
for the body and the harvest,but the revelation of the bloody
lamb for the body and theharvest, spiritual warfare,
inner healing, that is.
We understand the bloody lamband the lion, so let me back up
(14:33):
To highlight it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
As, because this is important as we understand the
bloody lamb.
That seems to be really a verystrong resonating point the
bloody lamb.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, so Christology, theology, is the study of God.
Right, it's our study of God,how we understand the nature of
God, the attributes of God.
Christology is how weunderstand the nature and
attributes of Christ, of Jesus,right, right.
And so, as I've asked forinspiration into this, why does
(15:13):
it really even matter, why doesthis even matter, whether it's
the Lion of the tribe of Judahor the Bloody Lamb?
And I started to get somerevelation on it, david.
And it does matter because weare in a time when our theology
is changing.
We are going from a theology ofan angry father and a mediating
(15:33):
Jesus who covers us from theangry father I'm painting broad
strokes but who covers us fromthe angry father?
Um, father, and his bloodcovers us so that the angry
father doesn't punish us.
In a word, I run across people,young people especially, that
believe this.
(15:53):
This is the theology thatthey've been grown up in and
have run away from in the church, from in the church.
Okay, and it would be atonementtheology, which is old
Testament, because atonementdoes mean, uh, kaffir, to cover,
like a blanket right, not toremove but to cover.
So Jesus said I come to bringyou a new covenant right, the
(16:15):
remission of sins, right.
So it wasn't an atoningcovenant, he was bringing in a
new covenant, away from theatoning covenant into one where
that whole it's gone.
Now we're moved, now we comeboldly before the son of grace,
boldly before a loving father,so that theology is changing,
okay, and it's common to a lotof people, but still it's not so
(16:38):
common to a lot of people.
It's a hard shift for some.
For some it is and and it's,and it's happening now.
And when I say now, over thelast 40 years and maybe into the
future a few years, you knowwhat I mean.
It's a short, we think solimited in time it's, but so.
So our christology is going tobe changing too.
So to have a balancedchristology, I have found the
(17:01):
awkwardness of me sharing theBloody Lamb, especially in the
worship movement, was, most ofyou know, there was so much lion
warfare stuff, worship andprophetic conferences, so much
warfare that emphasized the lionof the tribe of Judah and the
roar and it really got peoplegoing.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It gets you amped up.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And that's okay, unless it's not okay.
You know what I mean.
So we have seen, you know it.
Really, most of the brandingfor warfare in the charismatic
church you know, for worship andwarfare, prophetic type stuff
of Christology, if you will, ofChrist, would be—and I'm open to
(17:47):
correction—is around the light.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
No, no, you're correct, and let me underscore
this this is coming from someonewho's committed to the worship
movement.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yes, I'm not attacking the worship movement.
You're in, you're all in,you're part of yeah, my wife and
I, you know, we lead.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
we've led worship for many years I know you do, but
I'm underscoring it we teach, weteach we teach worshipers, you
know we have a spiritual fatherwho has been, you know, a father
in the worship movement.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So, uh, so, yeah, this is just what I'm I'm seeing
, and so as we, uh, but why itmatters is that we need a
balanced Christology.
Why does it matter?
Because I believe if we're notcareful, we create an unbalanced
Christology that emphasizes thelion over the lamb that was
(18:35):
slain before the foundation ofthe world, and what this does is
it's all power and might andaggression, and it will diminish
the suffering, the sacrifice,the brokenness and the
redemption of that that is atthe true heart of worship.
Okay, the fire falls on thesacrifice, not on the altar.
(19:00):
Okay, so we can build the altar, but the fire falls on the
sacrifice, not on the altar.
So we can build the altar, butthe fire falls on the sacrifice.
So why this matters and why it'sdear to my heart, so this
actually required, this wholething you have to understand,
required me to repent, and I'mgoing to talk about this in a
minute because I have a verypersonal application of it.
That just happened yesterdayand what I came to, what I sent
(19:25):
to David, and I wrote this bloga couple of weeks ago and let my
wife read it and she saidthat's a little mean spirited, I
think you can't release that.
And I thought, oh gosh, Ididn't mean it that way, but let
me send it to David, maybehe'll give me permission, you
know.
And he read it and said well,it might be a little cranky, but
let's do a podcast.
(19:45):
So, it moved him.
And so we are just asking,father, just code all of this in
love that we would embody thelion and the lamb.
So what I believe has happened,and I'm just going to say it is
I believe the emotional appeal,the visual appeal, the
(20:08):
marketing appeal of the Lion ofthe Tribe of Judah has become
the motivation for this type ofbranding.
Okay, in the music industry, inthe worship industry, which was
never meant to be an industry,and I'm just there, you go guys.
Those are strong words.
I just said it and it's awkwardand hard for me to say that,
(20:30):
and that's what my wife thoughtwas a little and corporately,
you know the awkwardness I feltwhen I came with this powerful
encounter that I'd had with abloody lamb.
You know that just annihilatedthose wolves, right, and let me
know that there was nothing thatcould come against that in my
life.
Okay, it.
It put me in a place ofauthority I have never walked in
(20:53):
two years ago, but as I triedto express that, even as a
preacher, you know, to my owncongregation, it was awkward,
yeah, it was awkward, it justwas yeah, oh, yeah, okay, cool,
you know, cool, tracy.
And so maybe now is the time to, and and so I sorted out.
So where does this come from?
The lion of the tribe of judahis mentioned one time in the
(21:15):
bible.
Okay, now we know.
You know the lion, the.
The lion, you know, roars fromzion, utters his voice from
Jerusalem.
We know that in the OldTestament, the root of Jesse, in
Isaiah, the lion's whelp,genesis, the lion is mentioned
(21:35):
as a shadow of Christ to come.
It is, it's mentioned there,and we need to understand that.
The lamb is mentioned, ofcourse we know where the lamb's
mentioned, all the way through,you know, from hundreds of times
, right from the Passover.
You know the lamb, the bloodylamb, has been God's chosen
sacrificial.
(21:55):
You know shadow, and thatChrist fulfilled, you know, is
the lamb of God, slain from the—Before creation, before the
foundation of the world.
Yeah, and you know so.
But so biblically, the Lion ofthe tribe of Judah is mentioned
one time in Revelation 5, inthis powerful scripture, and it
says then one of the elders saidto me do not weep, see the Lion
(22:18):
of the tribe of Judah, the rootof David, he's referenced in
Isaiah has triumphed.
He is able to open the scrolland its seven seals.
So there it is, the lion hastriumphed.
But then I saw a lamb, lookingas if it had been slain,
standing at the center of thethrone, encircled by four living
creatures and the elders.
The lamb had seven horns andseven eyes, which are the seven
(22:40):
spirits of God sent out into allthe earth.
He went and took the scroll.
The lamb took the scroll fromthe right hand of him, who sat
on the throne, and when he hadtaken it, the four living
creatures and the 24 elders felldown before the lamb.
Each one had a heart and theywere holding golden bowls full
of incense, which are prayers,are the prayers of God's people,
(23:00):
and they sang a new song sayingyou are worthy to take the
scroll and to open its sealsbecause you were slain With your
blood.
You purchased for God personsfrom every tribe and language
and people and nation.
You have made them to be akingdom and priests to serve our
God, and they will reign on theearth.
I looked and heard the voice ofmany angels numbering thousands
(23:21):
and thousands and tens thousandstimes ten thousands.
They encircled the throne andthe living creatures and the
elders.
In a loud voice they weresaying worthy is the lamb who
was slain to receive power andwealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise.
I heard every creature inheaven and on earth and under
the earth and on the sea, andall that is in them saying to
(23:43):
him who sits on the throne andto the lamb, be praise and honor
.
And I'm reiterating thisbecause, in a glory and power,
forever and ever, the fourliving creatures said amen and
the elders fell down andworshiped.
And that's the scripture wherethe line of the tribe of Judah
(24:05):
in the whole Bible is evenmentioned.
So, as I ask again thatinspiration, everything I talked
about earlier, lord, what doesthis mean?
Why does it matter?
I know it means something.
You're not just saying this forme to be, you know, to tickle
my fancy, you know, or to beclever, you know, I've always,
(24:28):
I've always, you know, I don'tever want to get revelation just
so I can have a clever word.
That's really it's you know itis easy to have happen oh my
goodness and it's not veryfruitful and it's not very, uh,
satisfying really.
No, no, without the anointingand without the inspiration of
God.
And so giftedness can get youthere.
(24:49):
So, as I asked him that it wasthe lion, the lion of the tribe
of Judah in Revelation 5, hadbeen triumphant.
Right, he has triumphed.
He is able to open the scrolland seven seals, but what does
he do?
He reveals the bloody lamb.
(25:09):
The lion reveals the bloodylamb.
So we don't get rid of the lionof the tribe of Judah, but a
balanced Christology will bethat the lion of the tribe of
Judah in our warfare will revealthe lamb in our lives and in
our corporate.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
So so as as, as as we go it, so it was in in our
worship.
Yes, revealing the lamb in ourworship.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I think so in worship , what I find, yes, so let's
personalize it and all myworship guys.
Now stick with me and I'll tellyou.
I'm going to tell you somethingfunny at the end of this, so
stay with me, uh, please.
So in our worship, you know,I've actually kind of made jokes
about three fast, powerfulsongs, too slow, so you know
(25:59):
that kind of stuff, but there isa flow there that may be
appropriate.
It may be actually biblicalthat the nature of the lion in
our worship reveals the lamb,ultimately, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
I'm just and those are just food for thoughts.
You know, I think what I wouldwant to be careful to and warn
of is possibly going too fareither way, is that you know, if
you're a real, there are folksthat I know that are powerful
and they can push, push, push.
You know the lion.
Lion lives inside of them, inin warfare, platform, warfare,
(26:37):
worship.
You know, with their voice,their instrument, just, it's
part of who they are and it'sextremely powerful and you know.
So for me is the balance ofthat that can be very satisfying
and I think so when we areoperating in that, that we would
(27:01):
just become that we intend andask the Lord, humbly ask let the
bloody lamb expression be justas powerful in me.
Let the high decibel powerexhale be powerful, but also let
the complete silence while thelamb takes the room be and
(27:26):
usually it's more powerful.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I was just going to say that the silence sometimes
the silence is is is louder,yeah than the roar.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, there's nothing more beautiful than a well
played silence, oh you know, andif you've been in a room which
you have I'm sure when, and wehad to go away when the glory
comes and it would just besilent, there's nothing more to
do, and you just sit, that'sworship, and then pretty soon
travail kind of enters the roomand then it just goes from there
(27:59):
.
And it probably started withthe warfare of the push.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I would say almost without a doubt warfare of the
push.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
You know, without I would say I was without a doubt
and so, uh, you know.
So again, I say, this wholething for me, this whole process
for me, required and I've gotit written in my notes my vision
and experience of a coupleyears ago was a correction for
me that required repentance onmy part.
Okay, so I want to just saythat again, this whole process
from the vision to today hasbeen a correction for me,
(28:33):
requiring repentance of changing, you know, of doing some mind
changes for me.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
How would you Tracy, just briefly, how would you
express or how would you definerepentance?
Well, the word is metanoia.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
The Greek word is metanoia, and we get to repent,
to repay, you know, penitence,to repay something.
It really comes fromGreco-Roman culture, the Latin
really comes from a Greco-Romanculture, the Latin.
So we've adopted that to repay.
You know where it means.
(29:19):
It really, metanoia means tobring my mind back into
agreement with the mind ofChrist, with the original mind
of God.
For me, so it does require aturnaround of you know, to do a
turnaround, we say all of thatwill happen and again, we have
taken these idiomatic words andI'm afraid, in the system that
we need to move out of, we havetaken many words which we've
(29:42):
talked about sin, grace,repentance and moved them into
the meaning of it being theconsequence of repentance.
So the repentance is, my mindcompletely changes to the mind
of Christ or back to theoriginal mind of God.
That's metanoia.
And then, because of that, Iwill completely do a 180, turn
(30:06):
from sin, turn from selfishness.
I will change directions.
All of that, all of those willfollow.
Yeah, but if that makes sense,Thank you.
The Lord has had me there for awhile on those words.
So, david, when you talkedabout 1 Samuel, stick with me.
Guys, we're just getting readyto blow some things, not blow
some things up.
I just feel like this morningthat I needed to go here is
(30:31):
because why does this matter?
You know, that's my question.
Why is this a word?
I was so humble when David sentthat to me.
I thought, gosh, you know, theold me would have kind of made
fun of it and said, oh, you know, not me, lord.
But now I'm saying, okay, ifthat's me, then why, why me?
And what are you wanting to sayreally through this?
And I trust David as a prophet,so I don't take anything David
(30:53):
says lightly Period, he's aprophet in my life.
So you're studying 1 Samuel,and so in 1 Samuel we'd come out
.
God's children had come out ofa system of judges, right, and
then Samuel, through anintercessor, through a
travailing intercessor, god saysI'm going to change my whole
(31:13):
system right now, as I'm comingout of this judge system and I'm
going to take this broken womanand birth a prophet who will
birth other prophets, who willbirth David, and that whole
culture of worship and prophecyand knobby prophecy.
But before that could happen iswhen Samuel's about to die.
We know what happened.
The people want a king.
(31:34):
They want a king.
They want a conquering king.
Human nature wants the lion ofthe tribe of Judah to lead them.
When Jesus came, when Messiahcame, they wanted a conquering
king.
You know, they didn't want thelamb slain from the foundation
of the world.
He kept telling them here I am.
(31:55):
John told them it's the lamb ofGod that takes the sin of it.
But they were so intent ontheir Messiah taking, you know,
coming in as the military.
You know, knock room right onthe back side, marshal side,
coming in and conquering right,yeah.
So this is where this isimportant.
(32:17):
So this same mindset thatcreated Saul.
Then God fixes that throughDavid, okay, through a worship,
through a lowly shepherd, theshadow of Christ, David, you
know, the servant shepherd, allof those things that took care
of lambs.
Okay, the gentleness of thewhole thing.
(32:39):
Right, sets up a tabernacle.
Well, the people wanted acharismatic king, they wanted
someone to lead them in war.
And I have to just speak to I ama nationalist and I am a
Christian, but there's also, Isee there's a tendency.
If we don't, if we aren'tcareful where this tendency that
(33:01):
has been in humanity forever,of that conquering lion, can
work itself into today inChristian nationalism.
Okay, and this is not going tobe popular with friends of mine,
but again, I'm a nationalist, Iknow what the country was found
on and I am all about that.
(33:21):
Okay, I am just talking aboutspiritually and also I'm able to
talk to and disciple and fatherquite a few young people these
days in their 20s and early 30sand they all are bumping up
against this stuff, okay, andthey're talking about it and
they're bumping up against itwith the church and they don't
(33:43):
like it.
They really don't like it, andso I'm explaining it.
But they're opening up my eyestoo and I believe it has to do
with this mindset of this.
You know, and it's not a newthing, this is not a new thing.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
The theological paradox of the lion as a savior
and an adversary, because weknow we have the roaring lion
right Right, right right.
You know, in Peter he says youknow roaring, you know to scare
everybody, but in the lion.
So ever since the you knowMiddle Ages, the lion has been
used as a victorious symbol ofwar.
(34:22):
You know, symbolizing Christ'sconquest during the middle, from
the 1100s, from the 1000s toall the way, you know all the
way on.
The lion dominated sermons,church art, devotionals,
writings.
You see, Richard theLionhearted, the Crusades were
all fought under the banner ofthe lion.
The Crusades were all foughtunder the banner of the lion.
(34:42):
You know of tribe, of Judah,and you know the lion standing
on his hind legs and you've seenthat.
And so what happens is art andmusic define culture, even
church culture.
If you've ever seen I'll giveyou an example the painting of
Leonardo da Vinci, the LastSupper.
If anybody grew up with theirmother popping them, saying,
(35:04):
take your elbow off the table,right, david's laughing.
Right, Take your elbow off.
You know where that comes from.
Judas' elbow is on the table inDa Vinci's painting of the Last
Supper.
Okay, don't want to be a Judasand you don't want to be a Judas
.
So those little things go deep,deep, deep into our culture.
So this lion, christ as theconquering Messiah, and it's
(35:29):
true, he has conquered.
He conquered by being thebloody lamb.
Conquered by being the bloodylamb, by being the bloody lamb,
conquered by gentleness, bybecoming, yeah, meekness.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Which is what he taught.
You know, it's what he taught,that that the, the paradox of
that is so powerful.
But it's so, it's, it's it'strue?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
yeah, I mean he did.
He flipped the tables, you know, out of love for his father's
house.
But if you just stay rightthere, you know there's about a
whole lot more scriptures.
You know of carrying yourenemy's bag.
You know twice as far as theyask you to carry it.
You know loving your enemy onand on.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
So he flipped the tables in more ways than one.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, exactly and you know so this.
So I wrote down here uh, thelion, richard the lionheart,
actually made his seal in thethird crusade.
You know the lion that wouldidentify and become synonymous
with battle strength during theCrusades, battle strength of
Christ.
Okay, so this is indoctrinateddeep into our system from the
(36:38):
Catholic Church, Right?
And so I had to do someresearch and I thought, okay,
what did the early churchfathers, how did they?
What did they think?
And I'm just going to read yousome straight research okay, Up
(36:59):
until the late third century,early church fathers emphasized
sacrificial, redemptive, notwarlike themes in all of their
art Sacrificial.
Yeah, the lamb, the lamb, youknow the lamb, the olive branch
you know most first throughthird century art would be the
(37:21):
lamb.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's still pretty fresh after.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
After Jesus for the first three centuries up until
Constantine up until.
Catholicism.
The paint's still pretty wet.
We still can track that.
There's art that's—we haveplenty of art, christian art
that goes to it, mosaics andjust different things.
We have plenty of art toreference in that, so it's
pretty easy to— and music andart define the culture.
Yeah, it does.
Music and art defines theculture.
(37:46):
It's why our worship is sopowerful and strong, and worship
creates theology, whether welike it or not.
So it's really.
And there are other peoplethat's another subject, but it's
the same.
But the Wesleys Charles Wesley,who wrote thousands of songs
and then on and on Some of thebest theology in them.
(38:08):
Theology was pretty much createdfor the Great Awakening,
through hymns, you know, andthat's why the hymns are so
powerful and stood the test oftime.
But this up until the thirdcentury.
Church art of the first threecenturies was predominantly the
(38:28):
Lamb of God.
In their art anthologyBeholding the Lamb of God and
the Triumphant Lamb, slain ofRevelation 5.
One of the most common piecesof art in the first three
centuries was the good shepherdcarrying the hurt lamb.
In the early church the lie hadalways appeared secondary.
It was not central to anychurch, early church doctrine,
(38:49):
teaching or worship.
It was all about the Lamb.
And so my question.
So I guess my challenge is mychallenge and we're wrapping
this up.
Did we do it in 30 minutes ormore, I don't know, but so we're
wrapping this up.
So what my wife might havethought was a little
(39:09):
mean-spirited, I don't have tosay Cranky, cranky, I'm not
feeling cranky.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
I'm feeling it.
You're far from cranky Davidand I are a little drunk in the
spirit here.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
So if that's coming through, but it's you know and
if the roaring lion doesn'treveal the lamb, then it may be
the wrong roaring lion, Wow.
(39:44):
If the roaring lion doesn'treveal the lamb, then I'm afraid
we need to be careful that wemay be revealing the wrong One
more time.
Oh, if, if the roaring liondoes not reveal the lamb, as in
revelation 5, then we may berevealing the wrong lion.
It may be coming from a placeand that was my fear in the blog
a place of marketing emotion.
Maybe I said self we just again.
(40:06):
This was a correction and arepentant thing for me.
And if we do a part two, are wegoing to do any?
A part two at all, you think,or did we run out?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
What we're going to do is we're going to take and
we're going to pause here rightnow and we're going to come back
and we're going to have alittle bit of a discussion time.
Yeah, but you're still going tohave the lion's share of what
we're doing.
But once again, folks, we loveyou and if you happen to have
(40:40):
any thoughts, questions,concerns, please feel free to
drop us a line at Life Aroundthe Fire or if you're just
interested in looking up somestuff, you can check us out on
the web at Life Around the Fire.
Type it in.
We'd love to hear from you and,in the meantime, adios, amigos,
(41:03):
but we'll be right back.
Folks, I want to welcome you as you tune into
this particular podcast episode.
I've been looking forward tothis for, actually, for Tracy
Perez to bring really what Iconsider to be an international
(00:33):
word of God from God to beexperienced to us and through us
, and so, tracy, I want towelcome you once again.
Again, you're not a newcomerhere, so we love you and I'm
(00:53):
going to let you give any kindof backdrop and background to
what you're going to be sharing,and then you just feel free to
go from there.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, thank you, david, good to be here and well,
that prayer right before thiswas powerful.
So the Lord is in the room, hisinspiration.
So I had sent this probably twoweeks ago I think two weeks ago
or so, two weeks ago, and I'llgo in with the back story but I
sent David just.
I was inspired, I was inspiredand that word has really been
(01:29):
amplified to me these daysInspiration, inspiration.
And all the way over here onthe drive I was hearing
Revelation 19.10,.
The testimony of Jesus is thespirit of prophecy and, as we
have been, you know, old wayfellowship and if you've heard
me on the podcast and David is aleader in that, in that group,
(01:55):
that we, you know, for a coupleof years and it's still going,
even though we haven't beenmeeting on Fridays, but we are
again and it it moved into ameeting where we really were,
quite by accident, but butseeking revelation on what the
early church operated in the oldway.
If you will, you know we'vetalked for years about let's go,
we want to.
You know the charismatic church, we want a book of Acts church.
(02:16):
You know let's do that, and youknow Pentecost and the fire and
everything and we do.
But you know, I don't know thatwe've had it.
We've had pieces of it but wehaven't had it and I don't know
that we will have it until wehave a really thorough
understanding of what itactually was.
And to do that, as hard as itmay sound, I believe there has
(02:39):
to be a deconstruction of typeof the Greco-Roman system that's
been in place.
And so, you know, there's adeconstruction kind of going on
now in the church, where thecharismatic church, you know,
where we're kind of fightingeach other and it's really just.
It really isn't thedeconstruction that's necessary.
I'm not saying exposure is notnecessary, but a deconstruction
(03:02):
in the sense that what we'vebeen doing at Old Way Fellowship
is seeking revelation of whatthe Old Way was.
So we've done podcasts on Olam,on Exousia right and Dunamis
Authority.
We've done Spirit Realm.
You know most of the podcasts.
We've done David together were,you know, on the Office of the
Prophet?
We're on those lines together.
We're you know, on the officeof the prophet.
(03:23):
We're on those lines.
So on the way here and allmorning I was asking the Lord
about.
You know, this inspired whatinspired me with what we're
going to share in the podcasttoday.
And the inspiration, literally,the word is to be breathed on.
Inspire.
When we inspire, we, you knowto breathe in.
(03:44):
Expire, we breathe out.
You know, if we expire withoutinspiring then we're dead right.
But inspiration, and so for usinspiration is literally as we
make ourselves available to thewind of God for revelation.
And what I've been finding iseight months that we've not had
Old Way Fellows way, fellowship.
(04:04):
And I've been on the farm.
We've.
We've raised three geese andthree ducks from little bitties,
little bitties, to five monthsold.
You know huge squawking.
We've got three kittens that wetook from just being weaned
into barn cats.
Now, at six months old, we'vegot we had started with five
deer, three doe on the propertyand we have three fawns that are
(04:25):
two months old.
And as I've watched that day inand day out and just kind of
living in that with the Lord,I'm getting very inspired and
the more I agree with something.
For instance, we had twoperegrine falcons show up on the
property and I'm not going togo there because I want to get
(04:47):
to this, but it's important whatI say because it has to do with
where this comes from and whereeverything's coming from these
days.
So these peregrine falcons showup on the property.
I really have not seen a lot ofperegrine falcons.
I'm a guy that sees hawks allthe time.
I see eagles not a lot.
I notice them maybe when othersdon't.
(05:09):
Swallowtail kite important thingI'm thinking about With Jeannie
and I we're texting aboutsomething really important and
swallowtail kite circlesoverhead and that is a regular
thing with us for years and I'vealways wondered is that weird?
Is that that something?
And what I've learned is I havecelebrated those things.
Romans, 120 god's invisibleattributes are clearly known by
(05:31):
that which he's created and whenI celebrate his create him, I
don't worship the creation.
That's where they went wrong,if you remember.
But when I celebrate him inthose things, then he gives me
more and the more I celebrate it.
Or if you could, you could usethe word, agree with it that
it's him.
(05:52):
So the Peregrine Falcons youknow I celebrate them and next
thing, you know they're comingaround all the time.
And then it's leading me toAugustine, a hippo, and
Peregrination and the Celtics.
You know the Celtic saints andthe desert fathers who
Peregrination was a lifestyle of.
You know anyway, that would beanother podcast, but this, this
(06:12):
came about the same way as I'vebeen in that mindset at the farm
for about eight months.
So I shared this dream at OlwayFellowship in June of 2023.
So two years ago and I had inJune of 2023, so two years ago
and I had in June of 2023, we'regoing to move right into that,
and so what I was telling Davidis Revelation 19.10, the
(06:32):
testimony of Jesus is the spiritof prophecy.
Well, when we did the podcaston the office of the prophet, we
talked about function and wetalked about a lot of things,
but we really brought forth thatprophecy is more New Testament.
Prophecy is more foretellingbringing people into you know.
(06:54):
It's more about telling you whoyou are in God than what you
need to do than what you need todo.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Not predicting, but proclaiming.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yes, and there is foretelling It'll happen, but it
really is.
New Testament prophecy reallyis to foretell, to encourage,
comfort and exhort as you bringpeople into their destiny, as
you carry them forth as prophetsor leaders in the fivefold
ministry.
And so, as we think of theforetelling, it hit me today
that what we're going to sharetoday and this is preface is the
(07:25):
testimony of Jesus.
As I see Jesus in these thingsthat happen, the more I agree
with that, the more God breatheson that for me.
Yeah, that's good, and he keepsbreathing.
And then I agree with that andI say this is something, this is
you, and then he gives me more.
To those who have, more will begiven, and to those who don't,
(07:46):
even that will be taken away,and somehow that will fit.
So, yeah, I wanted to say that,because I believe that's what is
happening here, that we canunderstand the testimony of
Jesus, we can understand thespirit of prophecy and what we
agree in, and then it willincrease our inspiration, which
(08:08):
will be increasing revelationfor all of us, increase,
increase of revelation andinspiration, as we actually
realize that's important,instead of just waiting for our
Sunday meetings or Wednesdaymeetings or a great speaker, or
you know what I mean, or what Imean or what have you to be
inspired, that we really lookfor that inspiration.
(08:29):
You know On a more daily basis,all the time.
You know and then recognize andsay, oh yeah, I see you in that
Lord.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And then Someone's called a shoe leather.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Shoe leather.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
yeah, and you know back in the Shoe leather where
you put your feet to it right Inthe mid-1800s I'll go.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
There is the people who you know, sigmund Freud and
Carl Jung, who establishedmodern-day psychology, which we
don't need a part of that, butthey had a phrase called
synchronicity.
It was a very real thing and itreally is the principle we're
talking about right now.
That, as you agreed with thingsfrom the subconscious or from
that realm that it moved theminto the physical realm
(09:12):
Absolutely Synchronicity,absolutely true.
So they're taking the spiritualprinciple, the spirit of
prophecy, testimony of Jesus,right is the spirit of prophecy.
So they're taking that, youknow again.
So it is true.
So in 2023, we're firing, guys,we are firing today.
(09:33):
So, and I just our prayer wasthat this whole thing would be
taken with the love that isintended.
I am very connected regionallyand nationally with the worship
movement and worship leaders,and so some of this that applies
there.
Guys, just wait till the veryend, because it's meant with a
(09:55):
spirit of love.
It really is, the whole thingis.
So in June of 2023, I had whatcan only be described as a
vision.
I thought that it was a dream,but as I looked around, I could
see my room and I knew I wasawake.
There were two tall,ancient-looking wooden doors
that opened in the center, and Isay ancient because of the iron
(10:16):
supports and the timber.
It was literally like big fortdoors that you see in old movies
or pictures, like large woodengates leading in and out of a
fort, and somehow I was watchingthis and I was also inside the
doors.
On the outside of the doorswere three huge wolves and they
literally were like.
(10:36):
I mean, they were big, theirteeth were bared, dripping out
of their fangs.
You know it was a reallyviolent set of three wolves
snarling to get in through thesedoors.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
It was a dream or a vision.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
A vision.
I thought it was a dream, butas I looked, I realized I was
awake because I could see aroundme, and I'm still seeing this
stuff.
So this only happened, guys, acouple of times in my life, and
not recently.
This was June of 2023, at aboutone o'clock in the morning, and
so and I shared this at Old Waya few times, you probably
(11:14):
remember, and, but I didn't,I'll go into that so they were
snarling with their teeth,determined to get inside with me
.
On the inside of the doors Was alamb, small lamb, covered in
blood.
I knew that these wolves wereabout to come through these
ancient doors and just as surelyI knew that as soon as they
(11:36):
came through, they were comingfor me, but as soon as they came
through, that this littlebloody lamb was going to utterly
destroy them.
I just knew that the lamb, thelamb that was on the inside of
the door's, bloody lamb, whichwas kind of with me, and they
were trying to get into thedoors for destruction, whether
it was me, and I knew the doorswere about to open the lamb was
(12:00):
going to open the doors, letthem in and he would destroy
them.
I knew that the bloody lambRight, would destroy these
wolves on the outside, yeah, andI just knew that.
I knew he would destroy them.
And just as this was about tohappen, I came out of the vision
I went into.
What I can only say is, for theonly time in my life, I was
(12:21):
caught up into a white light.
And I didn't go to heavennecessarily, but I was with the
Lord in a white light.
I knew he was holding me.
I literally felt like I wassucked up.
I felt like I'd gone up in atube.
I could feel it and youprobably remember me sharing
this at Old Wake and it was realvulnerable for me to share that
(12:41):
.
And it was real vulnerable forme to share that.
It was unlike anything I'veever experienced.
And I came out of this wantingmore understanding of the power
and nature of the bloody lamb.
And I had more understanding,but I wanted to know more of the
bloody lamb in warfare and, asthat happened, even at Old Way
(13:03):
Fellowship, again in the worshipmovement, as I would try to, as
I would share this, all aroundme were prophetic voices
nationally.
I mean, there was a lot.
There was a lot of stuff, a lotof words, more words about the
lion of the tribe of Judah andthe roar, than there was the
(13:23):
bloody lamb and it seemed, whenI would share the Bloody Lamb,
it really didn't seem to have.
You know, it's having impactnow, but it didn't seem to me to
quite have.
The impact Didn't have thatmuch traction then.
It didn't seem to as much asthe lion, right.
So I just kind of sat on it.
I just asked the Lord help mewith this.
(13:44):
Okay, I moved right out of theencounter with that into a dream
which was about SmithWigglesworth being behind me.
A spiritual son that had beenestranged from us comes in and I
would have the choice of eitherwelcome him in or not, after a
huge betrayal.
And as it was that all came topass, we welcomed him in trail.
(14:07):
And as it was that all came topass, we welcomed him in.
And so there's so much on thatdream that I shared, and it was
also about a harvest that'sgoing to come in.
The dream was so, it was alltied into about two hours, and
so I believe that the revelationof the bloody lamb and the
Moravians had it, but therevelation of the bloody lamb
for the body and the harvest,but the revelation of the bloody
lamb for the body and theharvest, spiritual warfare,
inner healing, that is.
We understand the bloody lamband the lion, so let me back up
(14:33):
To highlight it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
As, because this is important as we understand the
bloody lamb.
That seems to be really a verystrong resonating point the
bloody lamb.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, so Christology, theology, is the study of God.
Right, it's our study of God,how we understand the nature of
God, the attributes of God.
Christology is how weunderstand the nature and
attributes of Christ, of Jesus,right, right.
And so, as I've asked forinspiration into this, why does
(15:13):
it really even matter, why doesthis even matter, whether it's
the Lion of the tribe of Judahor the Bloody Lamb?
And I started to get somerevelation on it, david.
And it does matter because weare in a time when our theology
is changing.
We are going from a theology ofan angry father and a mediating
(15:33):
Jesus who covers us from theangry father I'm painting broad
strokes but who covers us fromthe angry father?
Um, father, and his bloodcovers us so that the angry
father doesn't punish us.
In a word, I run across people,young people especially, that
believe this.
(15:53):
This is the theology thatthey've been grown up in and
have run away from in the church, from in the church.
Okay, and it would be atonementtheology, which is old
Testament, because atonementdoes mean, uh, kaffir, to cover,
like a blanket right, not toremove but to cover.
So Jesus said I come to bringyou a new covenant right, the
(16:15):
remission of sins, right.
So it wasn't an atoningcovenant, he was bringing in a
new covenant, away from theatoning covenant into one where
that whole it's gone.
Now we're moved, now we comeboldly before the son of grace,
boldly before a loving father,so that theology is changing,
okay, and it's common to a lotof people, but still it's not so
(16:38):
common to a lot of people.
It's a hard shift for some.
For some it is and and it's,and it's happening now.
And when I say now, over thelast 40 years and maybe into the
future a few years, you knowwhat I mean.
It's a short, we think solimited in time it's, but so.
So our christology is going tobe changing too.
So to have a balancedchristology, I have found the
(17:01):
awkwardness of me sharing theBloody Lamb, especially in the
worship movement, was, most ofyou know, there was so much lion
warfare stuff, worship andprophetic conferences, so much
warfare that emphasized the lionof the tribe of Judah and the
roar and it really got peoplegoing.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
It gets you amped up.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And that's okay, unless it's not okay.
You know what I mean.
So we have seen, you know it.
Really, most of the brandingfor warfare in the charismatic
church you know, for worship andwarfare, prophetic type stuff
of Christology, if you will, ofChrist, would be—and I'm open to
(17:47):
correction—is around the light.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
No, no, you're correct, and let me underscore
this this is coming from someonewho's committed to the worship
movement.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yes, I'm not attacking the worship movement.
You're in, you're all in,you're part of yeah, my wife and
I, you know, we lead.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
we've led worship for many years I know you do, but
I'm underscoring it we teach, weteach we teach worshipers, you
know we have a spiritual fatherwho has been, you know, a father
in the worship movement.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So, uh, so, yeah, this is just what I'm I'm seeing
, and so as we, uh, but why itmatters is that we need a
balanced Christology.
Why does it matter?
Because I believe if we're notcareful, we create an unbalanced
Christology that emphasizes thelion over the lamb that was
(18:35):
slain before the foundation ofthe world, and what this does is
it's all power and might andaggression, and it will diminish
the suffering, the sacrifice,the brokenness and the
redemption of that that is atthe true heart of worship.
Okay, the fire falls on thesacrifice, not on the altar.
(19:00):
Okay, so we can build the altar, but the fire falls on the
sacrifice, not on the altar.
So we can build the altar, butthe fire falls on the sacrifice.
So why this matters and why it'sdear to my heart, so this
actually required, this wholething you have to understand,
required me to repent, and I'mgoing to talk about this in a
minute because I have a verypersonal application of it.
That just happened yesterdayand what I came to, what I sent
(19:25):
to David, and I wrote this bloga couple of weeks ago and let my
wife read it and she saidthat's a little mean spirited, I
think you can't release that.
And I thought, oh gosh, Ididn't mean it that way, but let
me send it to David, maybehe'll give me permission, you
know.
And he read it and said well,it might be a little cranky, but
let's do a podcast.
(19:45):
So, it moved him.
And so we are just asking,father, just code all of this in
love that we would embody thelion and the lamb.
So what I believe has happened,and I'm just going to say it is
I believe the emotional appeal,the visual appeal, the
(20:08):
marketing appeal of the Lion ofthe Tribe of Judah has become
the motivation for this type ofbranding.
Okay, in the music industry, inthe worship industry, which was
never meant to be an industry,and I'm just there, you go guys.
Those are strong words.
I just said it and it's awkwardand hard for me to say that,
(20:30):
and that's what my wife thoughtwas a little and corporately,
you know the awkwardness I feltwhen I came with this powerful
encounter that I'd had with abloody lamb.
You know that just annihilatedthose wolves, right, and let me
know that there was nothing thatcould come against that in my
life.
Okay, it.
It put me in a place ofauthority I have never walked in
(20:53):
two years ago, but as I triedto express that, even as a
preacher, you know, to my owncongregation, it was awkward,
yeah, it was awkward, it justwas yeah, oh, yeah, okay, cool,
you know, cool, tracy.
And so maybe now is the time to, and and so I sorted out.
So where does this come from?
The lion of the tribe of judahis mentioned one time in the
(21:15):
bible.
Okay, now we know.
You know the lion, the.
The lion, you know, roars fromzion, utters his voice from
Jerusalem.
We know that in the OldTestament, the root of Jesse, in
Isaiah, the lion's whelp,genesis, the lion is mentioned
(21:35):
as a shadow of Christ to come.
It is, it's mentioned there,and we need to understand that.
The lamb is mentioned, ofcourse we know where the lamb's
mentioned, all the way through,you know, from hundreds of times
, right from the Passover.
You know the lamb, the bloodylamb, has been God's chosen
sacrificial.
(21:55):
You know shadow, and thatChrist fulfilled, you know, is
the lamb of God, slain from the—Before creation, before the
foundation of the world.
Yeah, and you know so.
But so biblically, the Lion ofthe tribe of Judah is mentioned
one time in Revelation 5, inthis powerful scripture, and it
says then one of the elders saidto me do not weep, see the Lion
(22:18):
of the tribe of Judah, the rootof David, he's referenced in
Isaiah has triumphed.
He is able to open the scrolland its seven seals.
So there it is, the lion hastriumphed.
But then I saw a lamb, lookingas if it had been slain,
standing at the center of thethrone, encircled by four living
creatures and the elders.
The lamb had seven horns andseven eyes, which are the seven
(22:40):
spirits of God sent out into allthe earth.
He went and took the scroll.
The lamb took the scroll fromthe right hand of him, who sat
on the throne, and when he hadtaken it, the four living
creatures and the 24 elders felldown before the lamb.
Each one had a heart and theywere holding golden bowls full
of incense, which are prayers,are the prayers of God's people,
(23:00):
and they sang a new song sayingyou are worthy to take the
scroll and to open its sealsbecause you were slain With your
blood.
You purchased for God personsfrom every tribe and language
and people and nation.
You have made them to be akingdom and priests to serve our
God, and they will reign on theearth.
I looked and heard the voice ofmany angels numbering thousands
(23:21):
and thousands and tens thousandstimes ten thousands.
They encircled the throne andthe living creatures and the
elders.
In a loud voice they weresaying worthy is the lamb who
was slain to receive power andwealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise.
I heard every creature inheaven and on earth and under
the earth and on the sea, andall that is in them saying to
(23:43):
him who sits on the throne andto the lamb, be praise and honor
.
And I'm reiterating thisbecause, in a glory and power,
forever and ever, the fourliving creatures said amen and
the elders fell down andworshiped.
And that's the scripture wherethe line of the tribe of Judah
(24:05):
in the whole Bible is evenmentioned.
So, as I ask again thatinspiration, everything I talked
about earlier, lord, what doesthis mean?
Why does it matter?
I know it means something.
You're not just saying this forme to be, you know, to tickle
my fancy, you know, or to beclever, you know, I've always,
(24:28):
I've always, you know, I don'tever want to get revelation just
so I can have a clever word.
That's really it's you know itis easy to have happen oh my
goodness and it's not veryfruitful and it's not very, uh,
satisfying really.
No, no, without the anointingand without the inspiration of
God.
And so giftedness can get youthere.
(24:49):
So, as I asked him that it wasthe lion, the lion of the tribe
of Judah in Revelation 5, hadbeen triumphant.
Right, he has triumphed.
He is able to open the scrolland seven seals, but what does
he do?
He reveals the bloody lamb.
(25:09):
The lion reveals the bloodylamb.
So we don't get rid of the lionof the tribe of Judah, but a
balanced Christology will bethat the lion of the tribe of
Judah in our warfare will revealthe lamb in our lives and in
our corporate.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
So so as as, as as we go it, so it was in in our
worship.
Yes, revealing the lamb in ourworship.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I think so in worship , what I find, yes, so let's
personalize it and all myworship guys.
Now stick with me and I'll tellyou.
I'm going to tell you somethingfunny at the end of this, so
stay with me, uh, please.
So in our worship, you know,I've actually kind of made jokes
about three fast, powerfulsongs, too slow, so you know
(25:59):
that kind of stuff, but there isa flow there that may be
appropriate.
It may be actually biblicalthat the nature of the lion in
our worship reveals the lamb,ultimately, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
I'm just and those are just food for thoughts.
You know, I think what I wouldwant to be careful to and warn
of is possibly going too fareither way, is that you know, if
you're a real, there are folksthat I know that are powerful
and they can push, push, push.
You know the lion.
Lion lives inside of them, inin warfare, platform, warfare,
(26:37):
worship.
You know, with their voice,their instrument, just, it's
part of who they are and it'sextremely powerful and you know.
So for me is the balance ofthat that can be very satisfying
and I think so when we areoperating in that, that we would
(27:01):
just become that we intend andask the Lord, humbly ask let the
bloody lamb expression be justas powerful in me.
Let the high decibel powerexhale be powerful, but also let
the complete silence while thelamb takes the room be and
(27:26):
usually it's more powerful.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I was just going to say that the silence sometimes
the silence is is is louder,yeah than the roar.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, there's nothing more beautiful than a well
played silence, oh you know, andif you've been in a room which
you have I'm sure when, and wehad to go away when the glory
comes and it would just besilent, there's nothing more to
do, and you just sit, that'sworship, and then pretty soon
travail kind of enters the roomand then it just goes from there
(27:59):
.
And it probably started withthe warfare of the push.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I would say almost without a doubt warfare of the
push.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
You know, without I would say I was without a doubt
and so, uh, you know.
So again, I say, this wholething for me, this whole process
for me, required and I've gotit written in my notes my vision
and experience of a coupleyears ago was a correction for
me that required repentance onmy part.
Okay, so I want to just saythat again, this whole process
from the vision to today hasbeen a correction for me,
(28:33):
requiring repentance of changing, you know, of doing some mind
changes for me.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
How would you Tracy, just briefly, how would you
express or how would you definerepentance?
Well, the word is metanoia.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
The Greek word is metanoia, and we get to repent,
to repay, you know, penitence,to repay something.
It really comes fromGreco-Roman culture, the Latin
really comes from a Greco-Romanculture, the Latin.
So we've adopted that to repay.
You know where it means.
(29:19):
It really, metanoia means tobring my mind back into
agreement with the mind ofChrist, with the original mind
of God.
For me, so it does require aturnaround of you know, to do a
turnaround, we say all of thatwill happen and again, we have
taken these idiomatic words andI'm afraid, in the system that
we need to move out of, we havetaken many words which we've
(29:42):
talked about sin, grace,repentance and moved them into
the meaning of it being theconsequence of repentance.
So the repentance is, my mindcompletely changes to the mind
of Christ or back to theoriginal mind of God.
That's metanoia.
And then, because of that, Iwill completely do a 180, turn
(30:06):
from sin, turn from selfishness.
I will change directions.
All of that, all of those willfollow.
Yeah, but if that makes sense,Thank you.
The Lord has had me there for awhile on those words.
So, david, when you talkedabout 1 Samuel, stick with me.
Guys, we're just getting readyto blow some things, not blow
some things up.
I just feel like this morningthat I needed to go here is
(30:31):
because why does this matter?
You know, that's my question.
Why is this a word?
I was so humble when David sentthat to me.
I thought, gosh, you know, theold me would have kind of made
fun of it and said, oh, you know, not me, lord.
But now I'm saying, okay, ifthat's me, then why, why me?
And what are you wanting to sayreally through this?
And I trust David as a prophet,so I don't take anything David
(30:53):
says lightly Period, he's aprophet in my life.
So you're studying 1 Samuel,and so in 1 Samuel we'd come out
.
God's children had come out ofa system of judges, right, and
then Samuel, through anintercessor, through a
travailing intercessor, god saysI'm going to change my whole
(31:13):
system right now, as I'm comingout of this judge system and I'm
going to take this broken womanand birth a prophet who will
birth other prophets, who willbirth David, and that whole
culture of worship and prophecyand knobby prophecy.
But before that could happen iswhen Samuel's about to die.
We know what happened.
The people want a king.
(31:34):
They want a king.
They want a conquering king.
Human nature wants the lion ofthe tribe of Judah to lead them.
When Jesus came, when Messiahcame, they wanted a conquering
king.
You know, they didn't want thelamb slain from the foundation
of the world.
He kept telling them here I am.
(31:55):
John told them it's the lamb ofGod that takes the sin of it.
But they were so intent ontheir Messiah taking, you know,
coming in as the military.
You know, knock room right onthe back side, marshal side,
coming in and conquering right,yeah.
So this is where this isimportant.
(32:17):
So this same mindset thatcreated Saul.
Then God fixes that throughDavid, okay, through a worship,
through a lowly shepherd, theshadow of Christ, David, you
know, the servant shepherd, allof those things that took care
of lambs.
Okay, the gentleness of thewhole thing.
(32:39):
Right, sets up a tabernacle.
Well, the people wanted acharismatic king, they wanted
someone to lead them in war.
And I have to just speak to I ama nationalist and I am a
Christian, but there's also, Isee there's a tendency.
If we don't, if we aren'tcareful where this tendency that
(33:01):
has been in humanity forever,of that conquering lion, can
work itself into today inChristian nationalism.
Okay, and this is not going tobe popular with friends of mine,
but again, I'm a nationalist, Iknow what the country was found
on and I am all about that.
(33:21):
Okay, I am just talking aboutspiritually and also I'm able to
talk to and disciple and fatherquite a few young people these
days in their 20s and early 30sand they all are bumping up
against this stuff, okay, andthey're talking about it and
they're bumping up against itwith the church and they don't
(33:43):
like it.
They really don't like it, andso I'm explaining it.
But they're opening up my eyestoo and I believe it has to do
with this mindset of this.
You know, and it's not a newthing, this is not a new thing.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
The theological paradox of the lion as a savior
and an adversary, because weknow we have the roaring lion
right Right, right right.
You know, in Peter he says youknow roaring, you know to scare
everybody, but in the lion.
So ever since the you knowMiddle Ages, the lion has been
used as a victorious symbol ofwar.
(34:22):
You know, symbolizing Christ'sconquest during the middle, from
the 1100s, from the 1000s toall the way, you know all the
way on.
The lion dominated sermons,church art, devotionals,
writings.
You see, Richard theLionhearted, the Crusades were
all fought under the banner ofthe lion.
The Crusades were all foughtunder the banner of the lion.
(34:42):
You know of tribe, of Judah,and you know the lion standing
on his hind legs and you've seenthat.
And so what happens is art andmusic define culture, even
church culture.
If you've ever seen I'll giveyou an example the painting of
Leonardo da Vinci, the LastSupper.
If anybody grew up with theirmother popping them, saying,
(35:04):
take your elbow off the table,right, david's laughing.
Right, Take your elbow off.
You know where that comes from.
Judas' elbow is on the table inDa Vinci's painting of the Last
Supper.
Okay, don't want to be a Judasand you don't want to be a Judas
.
So those little things go deep,deep, deep into our culture.
So this lion, christ as theconquering Messiah, and it's
(35:29):
true, he has conquered.
He conquered by being thebloody lamb.
Conquered by being the bloodylamb, by being the bloody lamb,
conquered by gentleness, bybecoming, yeah, meekness.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Which is what he taught.
You know, it's what he taught,that that the, the paradox of
that is so powerful.
But it's so, it's, it's it'strue?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
yeah, I mean he did.
He flipped the tables, you know, out of love for his father's
house.
But if you just stay rightthere, you know there's about a
whole lot more scriptures.
You know of carrying yourenemy's bag.
You know twice as far as theyask you to carry it.
You know loving your enemy onand on.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
So he flipped the tables in more ways than one.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, exactly and you know so this.
So I wrote down here uh, thelion, richard the lionheart,
actually made his seal in thethird crusade.
You know the lion that wouldidentify and become synonymous
with battle strength during theCrusades, battle strength of
Christ.
Okay, so this is indoctrinateddeep into our system from the
(36:38):
Catholic Church, Right?
And so I had to do someresearch and I thought, okay,
what did the early churchfathers, how did they?
What did they think?
And I'm just going to read yousome straight research okay, Up
(36:59):
until the late third century,early church fathers emphasized
sacrificial, redemptive, notwarlike themes in all of their
art Sacrificial.
Yeah, the lamb, the lamb, youknow the lamb, the olive branch
you know most first throughthird century art would be the
(37:21):
lamb.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's still pretty fresh after.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
After Jesus for the first three centuries up until
Constantine up until.
Catholicism.
The paint's still pretty wet.
We still can track that.
There's art that's—we haveplenty of art, christian art
that goes to it, mosaics andjust different things.
We have plenty of art toreference in that, so it's
pretty easy to— and music andart define the culture.
Yeah, it does.
Music and art defines theculture.
(37:46):
It's why our worship is sopowerful and strong, and worship
creates theology, whether welike it or not.
So it's really.
And there are other peoplethat's another subject, but it's
the same.
But the Wesleys Charles Wesley,who wrote thousands of songs
and then on and on Some of thebest theology in them.
(38:08):
Theology was pretty much createdfor the Great Awakening,
through hymns, you know, andthat's why the hymns are so
powerful and stood the test oftime.
But this up until the thirdcentury.
Church art of the first threecenturies was predominantly the
(38:28):
Lamb of God.
In their art anthologyBeholding the Lamb of God and
the Triumphant Lamb, slain ofRevelation 5.
One of the most common piecesof art in the first three
centuries was the good shepherdcarrying the hurt lamb.
In the early church the lie hadalways appeared secondary.
It was not central to anychurch, early church doctrine,
(38:49):
teaching or worship.
It was all about the Lamb.
And so my question.
So I guess my challenge is mychallenge and we're wrapping
this up.
Did we do it in 30 minutes ormore, I don't know, but so we're
wrapping this up.
So what my wife might havethought was a little
(39:09):
mean-spirited, I don't have tosay Cranky, cranky, I'm not
feeling cranky.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
I'm feeling it.
You're far from cranky Davidand I are a little drunk in the
spirit here.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
So if that's coming through, but it's you know and
if the roaring lion doesn'treveal the lamb, then it may be
the wrong roaring lion, Wow.
(39:44):
If the roaring lion doesn'treveal the lamb, then I'm afraid
we need to be careful that wemay be revealing the wrong One
more time.
Oh, if, if the roaring liondoes not reveal the lamb, as in
revelation 5, then we may berevealing the wrong lion.
It may be coming from a placeand that was my fear in the blog
a place of marketing emotion.
Maybe I said self we just again.
(40:06):
This was a correction and arepentant thing for me.
And if we do a part two, are wegoing to do any?
A part two at all, you think,or did we run out?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
What we're going to do is we're going to take and
we're going to pause here rightnow and we're going to come back
and we're going to have alittle bit of a discussion time.
Yeah, but you're still going tohave the lion's share of what
we're doing.
But once again, folks, we loveyou and if you happen to have
(40:40):
any thoughts, questions,concerns, please feel free to
drop us a line at Life Aroundthe Fire or if you're just
interested in looking up somestuff, you can check us out on
the web at Life Around the Fire.
Type it in.
We'd love to hear from you and,in the meantime, adios, amigos,
(41:03):
but we'll be right back.
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