November 9, 2024 • 43 mins
"We can do so much better for ourselves in terms of the way in which we live and the degree of fulfilment and meaning that we derive from life." Kate Jones
Kate Jones shares her unique approach to fostering personal and organisational fulfilment. We explore her Wheel of New Horizons, a framework for helping successful yet unfulfilled individuals reconnect with their heart's desires and navigate life changes with purpose. Kate also unveils her Work Thrivometer, a tool that pinpoints 10 ingredients for thriving in the workplace. From redefining success to balancing sensitivity with strength, Kate offers a fresh perspective on achieving a deeply fulfilling life. Her story of a transformative trek in the Himalayas brings these insights to life, highlighting the interplay of leadership, followership, and inner purpose.
Kate Jones is a certified leadership and life coach, consultant and facilitator that specialises in helping purpose-led leaders create more Deeply Human® organisations where more people can thrive and do their best work without burning out. She is on a mission to change the world of work, and to help as many people as possible to live, lead and work well. She founded Neon in 2013 after ten years in corporate consulting and a further ten in social care. She is the architect of the Deeply Human® leadership model and leads The Deeply Human Culture Club, a community of like-minded leaders who want more organisations to be a force for good on the inside and out.
Connect with Kate:
Through her website Deeply Neon
On LinkedIn
Kate's Linktree
Resources Mentioned:
The Wheel of New Horizons & The Neon Work Thriveometer
The Olympics
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello and welcome to Life Beyondthe Numbers, the podcast for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics, people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers matter, but people mattermost and people drive performance.
(00:27):
I'm Susan Lee Creelon, your host,a coach, consultant, facilitator.
I'm a translator and authorof Leading Beyond the Numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans, each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategiesand insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am delighted to be joinedby Kate Jones on Life Beyond the Numbers.
Kate, you're so welcome.
Thank you very much.
It is very lovely to be here.
And a quick shout out to AoifeO'Brien because Kate has come to me via Aoife O'Brien, who's from the Happier at Work podcast.
And Aoife was a guesta long, long time ago.
(01:36):
But yeah, it's Aoife for the introduction.
Thank you Aoife.
Thank you Aoife.
So Kate, we've just been chattingand we've all of these parallels in our life and we nearly forgot to press record which happens all the time when I talk to people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But what fascinated me looking at yourwebsite in particular was these graphics that you had and you had these beautiful wheels and one of them was the wheel of new horizons which even sounds like wow I want to go and check that out so maybe you talk a little bit about your process of This wheel and what it does.
(02:17):
Okay.
So you'll probably have noticedfrom looking at the, well, the wheel and also the website that there's a lot of color in it.
So neon being, the clueis in the title, I guess.
So the, the bright colors of neonare all about, Creativity, humanity, living in the way that we really want to according to our heart's desire, as opposed to the way in which kind of fear or habit or expectation drives us, which is very understandable, but not really a path to happiness or fulfillment.
(02:49):
and so part of my work is probablyactually about 80 percent of my work is organizational and leadership orientated work, which we might come on to, but about 20 percent of it is working with, successful people who are well successful in inverted commas.
And again, we might, wemight get to come on to that.
people who have had success intheir careers, but who are basically feeling, unfulfilled and unhappy.
(03:12):
And sometimes that's a resultof, some kind of life event that we're or work event, I guess that has been sort of imposed on them.
Sometimes it's just that what I call thekind of midlife itch, where suddenly the way that we have been living no longer feels as appetizing anymore, if at all.
And suddenly there becomes, thiskind of starts as a whisper and it often ends up as a kind of.
(03:36):
You know, very, very loud, overwhelmingscream that something needs to change.
and that is often where, how kindof people come to find me in order to help them decide what it is and how they go about doing it.
And so the wheel of new horizonsreally, and it's, did you actually notice that it is a kind of, cause it's meant to be, Like a wheel on a ship.
It's this idea of kind of navigating,like a, what do you call it?
(03:59):
What do
Yes,
you call it?
the steering wheel but
of
my dad will build the navy he's gonna
oh, he'll be like, yeah, hewouldn't be very happy about it.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Like a ship's wheel.
because the idea is that, it is a kind ofadventure charting the kind of wild seas.
It's definitely not linear.
There's different stages to it.
It's a bit of an adventure.
(04:20):
There are pits and troughs.
It's kind of, you can feel very lost.
You can feel very at sea.
You can sometimes have absolutely no ideawhere you're going or whether or not when.
when you're going to meet dry land andwhether it's the dry land that you want.
So, so that's what the, that's what thewheel of new horizons is basically about.
And people kind of find me atvarious different stages of that.
But the first one, interestingly, atthe top of the 12 o'clock is dream.
(04:42):
And I I seem to spend quite a lotof my time asking people about their dreams and some people know, they can articulate what their dream is.
Some people really tragically,and I would say it's the majority, don't actually know.
It's kind of like, the daily grind orthe hamster wheel as I, as I describe it, of the daily, slog, which is a far cry from dreamland has kicked dreams into touch such that people have become really disconnected from what they, whether you call it a dream or a longing or a heart's desire, or, what you just would really love.
(05:17):
so yeah, sometimes my work isabout enabling people to, to reconnect to to their heart really.
And what it, you know, whatit is that they would, they would love to be a reality for themselves and all their families.
A
I suppose when you say that to somebodyfirst Kate, somebody arrives in and they're on that hamster wheel but there's that voice, maybe it's screaming, maybe it's a whisper at this point still.
(05:41):
What's somebody's reaction?
Normally, I know we'll have a wholehost of different reactions, but to dreaming or their heart's desire, is that Oh, well that's for somebody else, not me or do they embrace it or do you get a whole host in between?
whole host, but I mean, I'm immediatelythinking of somebody that I'm just about to finish working with actually, who, when I met them, they work in professional services.
(06:06):
I was engaged in the context ofa, leadership coaching assignment.
but they, in the first conversation that Ihad with them, it was clear to me from the way that they were speaking, that there was something that they were just not happy their fire was not a light in the way in which they were living and working.
(06:27):
And I, at one point just askedthem, if you could just Park all the practicalities and the responsibilities and the, rational, logical, whatever.
Park all of that, if you're able to.
And if I were to say to you,what is it that you would love?
And they immediately said, well,I would love to be a writer.
But it was almost like,but that's ridiculous.
(06:49):
That's never going to happen.
That's not possible.
This is what I'm supposed to be doing.
I've got a family, da, da, da, da,da, but and it's not necessarily about whether or not writing is what that person ends up doing.
It may or it may not be, but it's aboutbeing able to, take those, what are their bellows, the bellows that you use to boost a fire and get that ember.
(07:13):
glowing and then it kind of sets fireand then it grows until, sometimes then there's just, it kind of brings, it's like, it's like being bored in a way.
It's like allowing yourself, givingyourself permission to actually place some attention on things that really light you up as opposed to the things that you feel you should be doing, or the things that people expect you to, or the things that you're just used to doing.
(07:35):
just because, that's the way life hasbeen for the last 20, 20 or 30 years or
Yeah.
And you've lost yourselfsomewhere and all of that.
And you haven't, nobody's asked youthat question since you were in school.
And even then it was probably, whatare you going to be or not, what are you going to do when you grow up?
Never.
What are you going to be?
I don't know.
Maybe.
(07:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's, it's similarin, leadership work.
I mean, you'll know, there's a lotof talk in the whole leadership domain about purpose and people being clear about your purpose.
And I'm definitely an advocate of that.
I think, being clear about whatyou stand for, not just that you're, an MD or a, whatever, whatever CEO or whatever kind of.
leader you might be, but what isit that you actually stand for?
(08:17):
What do you believe in?
What's your stake in the groundthat says, this is what I'm, this is my sort of North Star.
And again, the number of leadershipdevelopment programs that I've been a part of, where people have been invited into that question and you just see this blank, slightly, it's like part blank, part terror.
It's like, I have no idea.
I have not even thought, maybe neverthought about it, or if I did ever think about it, it was a long time ago, and I now have absolutely no idea.
(08:45):
Or, oh my god, even as you're askingme that question, I feel really uncomfortable because I know that whatever it is, it's not this.
Yeah, my boss is sitting beside me.
my boss might be sitting beside me.
Yeah, yeah,
it's fascinating, isn't it?
Because a friend of mine, I remembera few years ago telling me that they were asked that question.
(09:08):
They were at a workshop and itwasn't in the working world.
It was outside of that,but it was a workshop.
And what's, what's your purpose?
What are you here for?
And they were just like, what?
You mean I need to have a purpose?
I need to be here for something?
I don't ever remember, until Simon Sinekcame along and started talking about why, that we ever really, we just did.
(09:29):
And the hamster wheel makes thatgreat analogy, because we just got on it, climbed the ladder, whatever those analogies, they made sense, because we didn't question it.
And We talked aboutsuccessful in inverted commas.
So Kate, what is success for you?
(09:49):
Well, definitely it'sabout making a difference.
you know, it's funny because interms of the purpose question, I have a massive tendency.
I have a quite an existentialkind of bent in my disposition.
it's always been the case, always hada tendency to think, what is the point?
(10:11):
And that contributes to a kindof bumpy ride in terms of mental health for me and has done always.
It's just kind of in my nature.
Cause ultimately.
I don't really believe, personally,that we were born with a reason for being on this, on this earth.
I just don't.
I think that we just spend a lotof time trying to make sense of it and trying to find meaning.
And for some people, youknow, religion helps a lot.
(10:33):
For other people, working ahell of a lot helps a lot.
For other people, even more harmfulthings, give them a sense of meaning or a sense of escape, whatever.
I, so on the one hand, I kind of don'treally believe that I don't believe that we were born for a specific reason.
And at the same time, I havedefinitely come to find a deep sense of meaning in my focus on enabling people to live, lead and work well.
(11:01):
and that's what the wholeneon thing is about.
And I believe passionately that, liftingourselves up from the hamster wheel, which causes us to feel nothing, which causes us to disconnect, which causes us to at best lead a kind of boring, numbed out life and at worst lead a self damaging or damaging to others life.
(11:26):
We can do so much better and we cando so much better for ourselves in terms of the way in which we live and the degree of fulfillment and meaning that we, that we derive from life.
We can do so much better by ourfamilies and our communities, and we can do so much better in terms of the organizations of which we're a part, both in terms of the impact that those organizations have in the wider world.
(11:47):
So I'm particularly involved inorganizations that are purpose beyond profit, but also in terms of the cultures that we create in organizations.
And rather than just cultures of hamsterwheels and cultures where people can actually thrive and do their best work and therefore deliver the maximum impact.
(12:09):
I started my career as a socialworker and a probation officer.
So I went from Oxford University toworking with the homeless on the streets of Oxford and then got into social work and probation and then loved it, learned probably Most of what I know about building relationships with all kinds
of people as a means for change in thatcontext, but then got really frustrated and quite bored, not by the client work, but by the organizational culture and the leadership of the public sector.
(12:38):
I, I left and I becamea management consultant.
I joined a management consultancyand spent 10 years there, stimulated, learning, growing, having loads of variety, being stimulated in a very different way, but organizational culture and the leadership were also really lacking.
(12:59):
And so I left again, I made anotherbig change and like 12 years ago now, left and set up Neon.
and.
that's where I feel as though all of the,a genuine, I think on my website it says something like, I genuinely feel like everything that I've lived and done before is contributed to what I'm doing now.
But I do genuinely feel that way.
And obviously on a day to day basis,there are good days and bad days.
(13:21):
And sometimes I'm like, Oh God, am Ireally making any difference at all?
But I think I'm pretty lucky really.
Cause most days I get to make.
Some kind of difference, howeversmall, to somebody's life or somebody's way of being.
And, that helps a lot.
Helps with my existential tendencies.
It's all, it's all selfish in the end.
(13:42):
well, we're all selfish altruistsprobably, but there is that ripple effect as well, I think, because yeah, you might make a small difference in somebody's life, but then they go on to make a small difference in other people's life.
And that ripples through theorganization, the family, the community.
And I think that is an incrediblecontribution to the world because we can all just look out for ourselves but actually by being there for other people and making that small difference it's only with small differences that we make big ones.
(14:17):
Well, yeah, exactly.
Sometimes it can feel insufficient,Brene Brown kind of writes a lot about, what's that, her favourite quote that she talks about, you know, the importance, I can't remember the exact quote, but the importance of, daring greatly, of being in the ring.
daring greatly.
So even if you kind of die daringgreatly, as long as you're trying, you know, the idea of, of not trying feels way worse to me than trying and not necessarily succeeding.
(14:45):
I mean, my mission to change the worldof work is huge and vast and I'm not going to revolutionize the world of work, but I do find when I remind myself that that's what I'm about in my organizational work, it does kind of galvanize something inside me.
all that stuff that Simon Sinekand others talk about, about when you're clear about your purpose, it has a sort of solidifying effect.
(15:07):
You can kind of feel it and itfuels your motivation, your energy.
When you get up in the morning, it's true.
It's really true.
It is.
And having something greaterthan ourselves to believe in it is, is that, isn't it?
And you were talking aboutthe revolutionizing work.
I mean, that's what I talk about.
I say, I'm here torevolutionize workplaces.
Yay!
yay.
(15:28):
Of course you can't do it on your own.
But if there's enough people talkinglike that, then I think that's part of the revolution as well, isn't it?
I'm part of that revolutionand the words that somebody.
gave me, gifted me almost.
It's seismic shift.
So there, you know, seismic, yes.
(15:49):
Yeah,
and you have to, don't you?
If you don't think big andimpossible, then it's very easy to go back down into micro stuff.
And I think that's a bit likein our own lives as well.
if we don't sometimes think, well,what would I really like to do?
It's very easy to just stay backin doing the daily grind that
Back on the hamster wheel.
(16:11):
Back on the hamster wheel,
And you talked about something elsethere and it reminded me of a formula, not a mathematical one or a numbers one that I saw on your website.
Because I don't see this veryoften and I have a formula it's different, but it's like one word plus one word equals another and
Oh yeah,
So mine is courage andcuriosity equals possibilities.
(16:36):
And that's my coaching ethos.
And the one I saw that Iloved on yours is sensitivity.
Oh no, this was a LinkedIn
Oh yeah,
Yeah.
Sensitivity and strength equal impact,which I think that's very powerful.
God, that was actually, I think thatwas this week or last week that I read.
(16:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you know, again, BreneBrown talks a lot, a lot, doesn't she, about, about vulnerability.
and I was using the word sensitivity.
Yeah, I got, I mean, partly, and Iwas reflecting on the fact that I'm somebody that, probably sounds and I think looks and comes across as confident and strong and capable and blah, blah, blah, all those things.
(17:18):
Which,
you went to Oxford, so
oh, that's what, oh, exactly.
and I'm tall and I speakin quite a low voice.
I, all of these things, interestingly,and there's a big gender dynamic in all of this, of course.
But anyway, all, and the sum totalis, Quite a lot of people find me either intimidating or, I don't know, a bit much, or a lot much.
(17:38):
But actually, I mean,those things are true.
Not that I'm necessarily intimidating or
or too much.
or too, or too much.
But, but I, it's true that I,I, I am, I, I am quite strong.
I am very independent.
I like to think I'm quite capable, butactually what people do not see at all.
mainly, but I guess because I don'tproject it is, is I am like one of the most easily hurt, most sensitive people I laugh because I never imagined that I would say this on a podcast, but,
(18:09):
Oh, you haven't been on my podcast before.
But it's really true.
And I think, that the particular, postthat you're just talking about, I was reflecting on there's a particular photograph of me that my mother's had on her wall for decades, which is, I think it was, I don't know how old I am, and it may be about nine or something.
I really love the photo, but it also,it does genuinely make me sad when I look at it because in the eyes of this nine year old, she looks sad.
(18:35):
She looks wise and she looks sad.
And I think I was already at that age.
My parents had divorced.
My family was a bit of a, stillis, a complete basket case.
anyway, and so then I was reflecting onthese two things of kind of sensitivity and strength, which are so different.
And one, the kind of strengththing is the thing that mainly the world values and calls upon and rewards and respects and, pays.
(19:04):
And yet, the sensitivity or thevulnerability, whatever you want to call it, A, the vast majority of people, except perhaps psychopaths, have it.
and often we learn to, keep it verytightly under wraps, keep it under armor.
And yet, It's often that softness thatcan create the most wonderful ripples actually, again, whether it's in our own lives or whether it's in, communities or, or in, on organizations in terms of people in leadership positions.
(19:35):
So yeah, sensitivity and strength
And they're not mutually exclusive either.
I think that's the thing, isn't it?
We tend to go, Oh, well,that person's strong.
end off.
They couldn't possibly be sensitiveor that person's very sensitive, so there's no strength in them.
And, and actually, all of us areso many things, that embracing those contrasting things in yourself, it's really nice as well.
(20:03):
Yeah, completely.
I think we do, I mean, and I'm guiltyof this still, I live, of living in quite a binary world where it's either that or it's that, but what if it's both, you know, what if it's,
Both and.
both and, exactly, ratherthan, rather than either or.
Yeah.
and
you've mentioned leadership andorganizations, and in particular, you made reference to organizations you left because leadership was lacking.
(20:33):
So where are we in thisleadership development?
Oh, blimey.
Yeah.
But it's fascinating, isn't it,Kate, like, how long will we talk about this stuff before change is more evident in the world.
And that thing that is soimportant is no longer lacking.
(20:58):
Well.
I don't know, obviously.
I don't even know.
Like, your question, where are we at?
I mean, because I'm conscious that Ilive in a little bit of an echo chamber, in as much as given the kind of work that I do, I, I know and I'm connected to a lot of people who, Are in the business of leadership development and therefore share a similar ish mission like, like you and I, and, and also on the surface, I do think that there's a movement in the right direction.
(21:25):
I do.
I do think there is, I think thereis much more awareness of, for example, the wellbeing agenda.
I mean, I, I definitely thinkthere's more talk about it than there is action underneath it.
Still, I think, I think therehas been movement, particularly, particularly since COVID.
But I think it's partlya generational thing.
The people who are in leadership positionsnow and senior leadership positions now are kind of my age or older, you know, in their sort of 50s or 60s.
(21:55):
You know, with the best intentions inthe world, they are products of the systems in which they have grown up, which are definitely, you know, a much more traditional, much more command and control, much more just drive, drive, drive, drive, much more task and hamster wheel orientated, really.
It's all about pace and speedand delivery at all costs.
(22:16):
People don't really matter.
why are you asking me how I feel?
What relevance does that have?
I know best.
I just need to get you all to on thesame page, all that kind of stuff.
but I work with a whole range oforganizations, including some, I work with a big engineering company.
and you know, even there, andI, I mean, I love them dearly.
I've been working with them for years.
(22:36):
but they're engineers, they'reprogram managers, they're very, you know, insights read.
So very fiery, very justdo stuff, they're doers.
directives.
Very quite directive, yeah.
But even there, there's An increasingrecognition that something different is required in terms of leadership in order to move the organization forward given the challenges that exist and some of the people realities that exist.
(23:04):
So I think there, there is, kindof reason for cautious optimism.
but there's, yeah, we stillgot a lot of work to do.
We do.
And I was reading something earlier todayabout how actually we, organizations will say, well, people in organizations, because an organization doesn't exist without people, but they will look to technology strategy and structure.
(23:30):
Sure.
To make changes when actually it's thepeople and the relationships that need the work and will make the changes.
And that is still, even though it'sproven and there's evidence and all of that, it's still a slow burn to get that mentality working or not working, but embed more within the organizations.
(23:55):
Yeah.
Yeah, you probably know, youknow, I talk about deeply human organizations and deeply human leadership, which is my, I don't know, brand, if you like, of leadership.
And so about moving from hamster to human.
So like try, which is at the centerof the sort of shift that I'm about in terms of the work that I do and trying to help organizations get off the hamster wheel and move away from the hamster wheel culture where people are spinning frantically and busy, but not really productive.
(24:24):
And.
frantic, but not necessarily makingany progress and definitely not feeling connected or creative or fulfilled in any way.
And on performance kind of notnecessarily being that great either.
And moving from that to a deeplyhuman model, which is much more people orientated in essence, where people feel much more connected to a sense of purpose, not just in terms of, some label above the door in, I don't know, a charity or development organization, but actually feel it on a day to day basis in terms of the work that they do, where
(24:58):
there's a sense of connection that existsbetween people like, within professional communities, which is my name for teams, or, and certainly between managers and leaders and their people, where people kind of have a sense of agency and a sense of belief that things are possible, where leaders are aware of the impact.
That they have, and use that as aforce for good and where there's care, you know, where people kind of care for each other and also, where they look after themselves.
(25:26):
Well, I'm also a big believerin individual responsibility.
And as adults, I think sometimes Iget the impression that people expect organizations to sort of do everything for them, which, and I'm a massive advocate of organizations doing more, but, equally, I think that generally.
We as individuals need to do a littlebit more to even some of the basic things like exercise and diet and sleep and being clear about what it is that we want from our work and developing our ways of saying no and our boundaries and all of that stuff.
(26:01):
So, so yeah, hamster to hamster to human.
Raise the flag.
Need to get a flag made.
It might be
Yeah, it might be a newOlympic sports case,
a new Olympic sport.
Imagine that.
Yeah, yeah.
That's something else I'vebeen writing a lot about.
Actually, I don't know if we've got timeto talk about that, but the Olympics has really got me thinking about this whole thing about what is success.
(26:27):
I mean, I was completelyobsessed with the Olympics.
I absolutely, I haven't watched any ofthe Paralympics, I have to confess, but.
They haven't started yet,
Oh, oh, oh, oh, great.
Still got time.
That's all right then.
yeah, found it utterly uplifting.
Absolutely loved it.
Watched loads of it.
amazing stories of seemingly ordinarypeople doing extraordinary things and all the family connections, post the Tokyo games, family and friends being in the stands and celebrating and amazing stories of recovery from injury, all this stuff.
(27:00):
when I thought about it a little bit more,and it was particularly brought home to me by this British marathon runner, Rose Harvey, who another incredible story, a woman who only started running in 2020.
Wow.
She was a lawyer, she was made redundantduring COVID, like what can I do, I'll start up four years later, she's an Olympian running in the marathon.
However, I mean that, that,amazing, absolutely extraordinary, flipping fantastic, go Rose.
(27:24):
However, it turns out That,well, she started running, and she was in complete agony.
utter agony, incredible pain, thedownhills, this marathon, race in, course, this, in Paris, was apparently incredibly difficult, hills and what have you.
Cut a long story short,she had a stress fracture.
(27:44):
She ran 24 miles with a stress fracturein her leg, and she commented afterwards that she knew there was something seriously wrong, but she could not face the possibility of not finishing the race.
And I just think, was that heroic,or was that actually kind of quite heartbreakingly tragic in terms of somebody not feeling able to, I don't know, face the, the prospect of, of not having achieved, not having succeeded in a particular way.
(28:16):
And you know, Adam Peaty.
Another Olympian who after, I think thelast Olympic Games was quoted as saying, two gold medals don't make you happy, massive depression, alcoholism in a, really, really bad, bad place, questioning kind of, you know, what's it all about.
So yeah, what is success really?
Is it about gold medals and promotionsand status and money and all of those traditional accoutrements of success, or is it about something different?
(28:46):
Or is it not an either or?
going back to our binary thing.
And, and
Yeah.
in the Olympics, I didn't know aboutRose, but Adam Petey certainly, and, but so many of the stories were that triumph over adversity.
And a lot of the adversity thatpeople talked about for, you see it coming into sport more and more, is people's mental health challenges and even social health challenges.
(29:12):
Because I think the Contrast between theTokyo Olympics and the Paris Olympics was phenomenal for a lot of people as well.
and at the end of theday, it's also sport.
so people do lose their batonin the middle of a race and all these different things
Yeah.
And like for me, one of the bestmoments of the games was seeing an Irish sprinting team coming forth in the by 400 women's relays, which Blew my mind!
(29:42):
Never would I haveimagined that happening.
I do think there's somethingspectacular about sport for that and brings us together in everything.
Yeah.
Well yeah, how do they manage themselvesand what's too much and what's enough and what's success and what's the purpose and afterwards what happens and I think that's It's something as well that's a real challenge for
(30:09):
I wonder how many of them are copingwell with their mental health now.
I mean, imagine you likenothing else matters.
Your relationships, yourfamily, your everything.
It all goes out the window.
You're focused for four years.
You're focused on that one race andeither you win or you don't win.
And then, I mean, I find it hardtransitioning from a nice holiday back to work, I like, oh yeah, obviously aside from that, I'm absolutely completely on, on track to be some sort of Olympic medalist.
(30:42):
Not, but God, I can't imagine it.
I hope that I'm, in fact, I needto, track them all down on Instagram and send them my best wishes and tell them not to feel too miserable.
And some of them will and some ofthem won't because some of them are very grounded or rounded or whatever it is and again, it's on a spectrum.
But speaking of holidays, because oneof the, my favorite books of yours was about a holiday and actually, oh, I'm not even going to spoil it, but I'd like you to talk about the lessons
(31:13):
Oh my gosh.
leadership and followership, whichI just loved from that holiday.
If you can.
Yeah.
Well, so the holiday you're talkingto, I went to India earlier this year.
I went to Rishikesh in Northern Indiaand there were two bits to this holiday.
One was a yoga retreat and then thesecond bit was, I organized independently to go trekking in the Himalayas.
(31:34):
So it was four, four days and three nightswith, as it turned out, a ridiculously, negligent amount of research into what was going to be involved because I'd completely missed the fact that there was going to be a summit that there was going to be snow that we were going to be at flipping 4000 meters altitude.
I just read that it was the shortesttrack available in the area.
They talked about flowers in the valley.
(31:55):
I was like, brilliant.
Perfect.
But in the event, it wasreally flipping hard.
And, and, Yeah, there were actually twoof us doing it, but I guess it was really interesting because we had this wonderful guide who was at least half my age, local guy, who just had a very gentle spirit, but, was a wonderful companion and guide.
(32:19):
I was, we were both anxious, but I'lljust talk about, I'll just talk about myself rather than my friend that came with me, but certainly as the thing approached, I was really anxious about what had I let myself in for.
I knew by this point that therewas going to be snow and crampons were going to be required.
I knew there was some sort of summit.
I was like, Oh Jesus, you know, I'm 54.
(32:39):
I'm not 20.
This is like a really big mistake.
Who are these people?
I only spent about half an hourresearching them on Google.
Are they going to be there?
Like, will we get there?
all those kind of voices in your head.
Anyway, at the point at which we, we metthem at like 6am or something down on the road beneath the yoga retreat place.
They were there, they were ontime, they were wonderfully hospitable and kind and friendly.
(33:04):
At that point, I just completely relaxed.
I was like, this is, I've done my bit,I've packed, I've sort of prepared.
But now, I'm just going toput myself in their hands.
There's nothing more I can do.
they know, they'll tell mewhat I need to do and when.
What an absolute relief that was.
(33:26):
And I was very happy just to bekind of clueless and in there.
Sort of, you know, I, I'd taken, I didn'thave to take crampons, but I'd taken the kind of stuff that, that, that I needed.
Follow their instructions, eat whatI'm supposed to eat, get up when I'm supposed to get up, follow him up the difficult bits, take a rest, be careful of altitude, da da da, sickness, da da da.
(33:49):
And amazingly, we both made it to thetop of this flipping mountain and, and even more miraculously in my case, coming back down, which I found particularly terrifying, but, it really was a kind of interesting experience in, you can't have
leaders without followers and it takesquite a lot to be a follower, to trust the person that you're following just to be able to let go in a way and put your, in this case, my safety and well being.
(34:20):
Into somebody else, which,you know, in this case, I've known for about five minutes.
so it was, it was a really, it was,I've been lucky enough to travel a lot in my life, but, this was definitely has gone into like one of the top five.
travel experiences of, of my life.
The other thing I'm going to mentionquickly is it was also the festival of Holi while I was in India on the first day that we were there.
(34:44):
And, there are also, there's apicture on LinkedIn somewhere of me grinning insanely, absolutely covered in neon colors.
Paint and powder, and wholly forthose that don't know is that I think it's the festival kind of Welcoming spring and the energy of spring everyone goes completely nuts.
Everybody's chucking literally powder atyou buckets of water chucked off the tops of Houses by women in saris with kids lobbing balloons full of colored water at you I mean absolutely filthy soaking wet Hair matted in paint, literally covered head to foot, but what amazing joy.
(35:26):
It was just so joyful.
again, when do you, as an adult, certainlyin the UK, when do you get a chance, completely sober, not a drop of alcohol in sight, just to be so playfully joyous, the hamster wheel can be all very serious and all very, yeah, a far cry from that.
(35:50):
Wild abandon is thephrase that comes to mind.
Honestly.
I absolutely loved it.
What a fantastic trip that was.
Thank you for asking me about that.
And of course you can havewild abandon anytime you want.
It is perfectly within reach.
It might not be that colorful andthat festive, but, but we can, we constrain ourselves, don't we, Kate?
(36:12):
We have time for one more questionand I'm going to go full circle and back to another circle.
Oh yeah.
And which is your Neon Work Thrivometer,
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
another colourful wheel thatyou had on your website.
Thrivometer,
I call it.
So I have a, I have a.
(36:33):
yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I actually have a life Thrivometerand a work Thrivometer.
So, and we can maybe include it inthe show notes cause they're free, free resources that, people can use.
but basically this is aboutidentifying, I think there are 10 different, key ingredients, if you like, to thriving at work.
(36:53):
So things like connection, they actuallyfeeling connected with people at work rather than completely isolated things like flexibility, things like having a sense of autonomy, things like having a sense of growing and developing things like having some sense of balance or between work and non work things like having some sense of belonging, et cetera.
(37:14):
So.
I've pulled these into, this model thatI call the, the work Thrive O Meter, and there's a free worksheet that people can use where you can, I don't know, you can basically score yourself in these various areas and see how you think you're doing.
I mean, some people have told me thatthey've used it in conversations with their line managers, to get into a conversation, not just about the, the task, the focus of their daily work, but about all the things that they need in their work life, in the context of the Work Thrivometer or their life life, in terms of the Life Thrivometer, needs to be able to, to flourish and to thrive.
(37:56):
And I just firmly believe thatpeople who feel well, Perform well, we do our best work when we're feeling all of those things.
And, I get that, for some peoplehaving a job is enough, and I do completely understand that it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs in a way.
And for many millions of peoplearound the world, billions of people around the world, having a job of any kind that enables them to get some food on the table is.
(38:24):
fantastic and is, is okay.
So I'm talking from quite a privileged,position for those people for whom, who have the opportunity for more.
so not just enough to sort of putfood on the table and a roof over your head, but also an opportunity to genuinely, feel a sense of connection and meaning and fulfillment and growth.
(38:47):
That's what I would like foras many people as possible.
So, So yeah, that's the life throbometer,also in the shape of a petal.
Slash wheel, slash, I'mnot quite sure what, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, the petals definitely,that's what I thought more than the, the ship's navigational.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you've used the words.
(39:09):
connection and belonging quite abit throughout our conversation.
So I'm going to say that they,those two words in particular are quite important to you.
Mm hmm.
Can we belong without being connected?
And can we feel connectedwithout feeling like we belong?
(39:33):
Woo!
Yeah.
You can't ask me a question like that!
Well, I would say you can't feela sense of belonging without a sense of connection to yourself.
there's a lot of social pressureand I'm going to say propaganda about the importance of relationship and the importance, whether it's family or friends or what have you.
(39:58):
And, yes, we're social animals,but sometimes I think that what is forgotten is about the importance of connection to self.
And, I actually live on my own.
I don't have children.
I'm not married.
I'm very happy with that situation.
I don't feel that my life is withoutlove or connection, and I'm also very grateful to the fact that I have learned, I have developed a sense of connection with myself.
(40:24):
Not necessarily one that, when I was18 or 20 I would have said, I know what I would like, thank you very much.
But.
I think that if you can keep yourselfcompany, if you can be a companion to yourself, if you can be, your own best kind of playmate and your own best Hal on holiday it's the most wonderful kind of grounding and pathway to a sense of belonging in life, whereby, all the rest is a bonus.
(40:52):
And it's, again, it's not aneither or, but, So there you go.
That's what I'd say.
It's not possible to have a senseof belonging without a strong sense of connection to self.
Yeah.
that was lovely.
Thank you for sharing that.
and yeah, that connection to selfand enjoying your own company.
That's what I always say isthat I enjoy my own company.
(41:14):
And I know a lot of people thatdon't want to be on their own, but I think at a certain point in life.
Hopefully it does become easierfor everyone to do that because it is nice to hang out with yourself.
From time to time.
I think I'm fantastic company.
there you go!
Yeah,
(41:34):
I'm in a really bad mood when,you know, well, you know,
that isn't the samefor everyone, I'm sure.
Exactly.
Kate, thank you.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
We've gone all over the place
have, I've loved it.
Thank you for the conversation.
I've really enjoyed it.
It's been a colourful conversation, andwe'll put those links in the show notes for anybody that would like to try the, Thrivometers, the Work or Life ones.
(41:59):
And, if anyone would like to connectwith you, Kate, because your name is like, You know, how many Kate Jones are there in the world?
yeah, there are probably quite a lot.
the best way I think isprobably through LinkedIn.
So if you type in Kate Jones neon,into LinkedIn, then you'll find me.
and then maybe if we, share in the shownotes the link to my link tree, then people can, they'll also be able to find the, these thrive, these various things that we've mentioned in there.
(42:30):
in the conversation, the Thrive OMeter worksheets and what have you.
So, so yeah, but LinkedIn, I would say isprobably the easiest way to connect to me.
I'm always delighted to connect with,connect, connect, connect, connect, that word again, but to connect with people.
So yeah, it would belovely to hear from folk.
Kate hosts a lot on LinkedInand it's always enjoyable and you'll learn something as well.
(42:53):
So definitely worth connectingor at least following.
Kate, thank, thank you somuch for your time today.
It's been a real pleasure.
I've loved it.
Really loved it.
Thank you so much.
You're very welcome.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
(43:17):
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello and welcome to Life Beyondthe Numbers, the podcast for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics, people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers matter, but people mattermost and people drive performance.
(00:27):
I'm Susan Lee Creelon, your host,a coach, consultant, facilitator.
I'm a translator and authorof Leading Beyond the Numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans, each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategiesand insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am delighted to be joinedby Kate Jones on Life Beyond the Numbers.
Kate, you're so welcome.
Thank you very much.
It is very lovely to be here.
And a quick shout out to AoifeO'Brien because Kate has come to me via Aoife O'Brien, who's from the Happier at Work podcast.
And Aoife was a guesta long, long time ago.
(01:36):
But yeah, it's Aoife for the introduction.
Thank you Aoife.
Thank you Aoife.
So Kate, we've just been chattingand we've all of these parallels in our life and we nearly forgot to press record which happens all the time when I talk to people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But what fascinated me looking at yourwebsite in particular was these graphics that you had and you had these beautiful wheels and one of them was the wheel of new horizons which even sounds like wow I want to go and check that out so maybe you talk a little bit about your process of This wheel and what it does.
(02:17):
Okay.
So you'll probably have noticedfrom looking at the, well, the wheel and also the website that there's a lot of color in it.
So neon being, the clueis in the title, I guess.
So the, the bright colors of neonare all about, Creativity, humanity, living in the way that we really want to according to our heart's desire, as opposed to the way in which kind of fear or habit or expectation drives us, which is very understandable, but not really a path to happiness or fulfillment.
(02:49):
and so part of my work is probablyactually about 80 percent of my work is organizational and leadership orientated work, which we might come on to, but about 20 percent of it is working with, successful people who are well successful in inverted commas.
And again, we might, wemight get to come on to that.
people who have had success intheir careers, but who are basically feeling, unfulfilled and unhappy.
(03:12):
And sometimes that's a resultof, some kind of life event that we're or work event, I guess that has been sort of imposed on them.
Sometimes it's just that what I call thekind of midlife itch, where suddenly the way that we have been living no longer feels as appetizing anymore, if at all.
And suddenly there becomes, thiskind of starts as a whisper and it often ends up as a kind of.
(03:36):
You know, very, very loud, overwhelmingscream that something needs to change.
and that is often where, how kindof people come to find me in order to help them decide what it is and how they go about doing it.
And so the wheel of new horizonsreally, and it's, did you actually notice that it is a kind of, cause it's meant to be, Like a wheel on a ship.
It's this idea of kind of navigating,like a, what do you call it?
(03:59):
What do
Yes,
you call it?
the steering wheel but
of
my dad will build the navy he's gonna
oh, he'll be like, yeah, hewouldn't be very happy about it.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Like a ship's wheel.
because the idea is that, it is a kind ofadventure charting the kind of wild seas.
It's definitely not linear.
There's different stages to it.
It's a bit of an adventure.
(04:20):
There are pits and troughs.
It's kind of, you can feel very lost.
You can feel very at sea.
You can sometimes have absolutely no ideawhere you're going or whether or not when.
when you're going to meet dry land andwhether it's the dry land that you want.
So, so that's what the, that's what thewheel of new horizons is basically about.
And people kind of find me atvarious different stages of that.
But the first one, interestingly, atthe top of the 12 o'clock is dream.
(04:42):
And I I seem to spend quite a lotof my time asking people about their dreams and some people know, they can articulate what their dream is.
Some people really tragically,and I would say it's the majority, don't actually know.
It's kind of like, the daily grind orthe hamster wheel as I, as I describe it, of the daily, slog, which is a far cry from dreamland has kicked dreams into touch such that people have become really disconnected from what they, whether you call it a dream or a longing or a heart's desire, or, what you just would really love.
(05:17):
so yeah, sometimes my work isabout enabling people to, to reconnect to to their heart really.
And what it, you know, whatit is that they would, they would love to be a reality for themselves and all their families.
A
I suppose when you say that to somebodyfirst Kate, somebody arrives in and they're on that hamster wheel but there's that voice, maybe it's screaming, maybe it's a whisper at this point still.
(05:41):
What's somebody's reaction?
Normally, I know we'll have a wholehost of different reactions, but to dreaming or their heart's desire, is that Oh, well that's for somebody else, not me or do they embrace it or do you get a whole host in between?
whole host, but I mean, I'm immediatelythinking of somebody that I'm just about to finish working with actually, who, when I met them, they work in professional services.
(06:06):
I was engaged in the context ofa, leadership coaching assignment.
but they, in the first conversation that Ihad with them, it was clear to me from the way that they were speaking, that there was something that they were just not happy their fire was not a light in the way in which they were living and working.
(06:27):
And I, at one point just askedthem, if you could just Park all the practicalities and the responsibilities and the, rational, logical, whatever.
Park all of that, if you're able to.
And if I were to say to you,what is it that you would love?
And they immediately said, well,I would love to be a writer.
But it was almost like,but that's ridiculous.
(06:49):
That's never going to happen.
That's not possible.
This is what I'm supposed to be doing.
I've got a family, da, da, da, da,da, but and it's not necessarily about whether or not writing is what that person ends up doing.
It may or it may not be, but it's aboutbeing able to, take those, what are their bellows, the bellows that you use to boost a fire and get that ember.
(07:13):
glowing and then it kind of sets fireand then it grows until, sometimes then there's just, it kind of brings, it's like, it's like being bored in a way.
It's like allowing yourself, givingyourself permission to actually place some attention on things that really light you up as opposed to the things that you feel you should be doing, or the things that people expect you to, or the things that you're just used to doing.
(07:35):
just because, that's the way life hasbeen for the last 20, 20 or 30 years or
Yeah.
And you've lost yourselfsomewhere and all of that.
And you haven't, nobody's asked youthat question since you were in school.
And even then it was probably, whatare you going to be or not, what are you going to do when you grow up?
Never.
What are you going to be?
I don't know.
Maybe.
(07:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's, it's similarin, leadership work.
I mean, you'll know, there's a lotof talk in the whole leadership domain about purpose and people being clear about your purpose.
And I'm definitely an advocate of that.
I think, being clear about whatyou stand for, not just that you're, an MD or a, whatever, whatever CEO or whatever kind of.
leader you might be, but what isit that you actually stand for?
(08:17):
What do you believe in?
What's your stake in the groundthat says, this is what I'm, this is my sort of North Star.
And again, the number of leadershipdevelopment programs that I've been a part of, where people have been invited into that question and you just see this blank, slightly, it's like part blank, part terror.
It's like, I have no idea.
I have not even thought, maybe neverthought about it, or if I did ever think about it, it was a long time ago, and I now have absolutely no idea.
(08:45):
Or, oh my god, even as you're askingme that question, I feel really uncomfortable because I know that whatever it is, it's not this.
Yeah, my boss is sitting beside me.
my boss might be sitting beside me.
Yeah, yeah,
it's fascinating, isn't it?
Because a friend of mine, I remembera few years ago telling me that they were asked that question.
(09:08):
They were at a workshop and itwasn't in the working world.
It was outside of that,but it was a workshop.
And what's, what's your purpose?
What are you here for?
And they were just like, what?
You mean I need to have a purpose?
I need to be here for something?
I don't ever remember, until Simon Sinekcame along and started talking about why, that we ever really, we just did.
(09:29):
And the hamster wheel makes thatgreat analogy, because we just got on it, climbed the ladder, whatever those analogies, they made sense, because we didn't question it.
And We talked aboutsuccessful in inverted commas.
So Kate, what is success for you?
(09:49):
Well, definitely it'sabout making a difference.
you know, it's funny because interms of the purpose question, I have a massive tendency.
I have a quite an existentialkind of bent in my disposition.
it's always been the case, always hada tendency to think, what is the point?
(10:11):
And that contributes to a kindof bumpy ride in terms of mental health for me and has done always.
It's just kind of in my nature.
Cause ultimately.
I don't really believe, personally,that we were born with a reason for being on this, on this earth.
I just don't.
I think that we just spend a lotof time trying to make sense of it and trying to find meaning.
And for some people, youknow, religion helps a lot.
(10:33):
For other people, working ahell of a lot helps a lot.
For other people, even more harmfulthings, give them a sense of meaning or a sense of escape, whatever.
I, so on the one hand, I kind of don'treally believe that I don't believe that we were born for a specific reason.
And at the same time, I havedefinitely come to find a deep sense of meaning in my focus on enabling people to live, lead and work well.
(11:01):
and that's what the wholeneon thing is about.
And I believe passionately that, liftingourselves up from the hamster wheel, which causes us to feel nothing, which causes us to disconnect, which causes us to at best lead a kind of boring, numbed out life and at worst lead a self damaging or damaging to others life.
(11:26):
We can do so much better and we cando so much better for ourselves in terms of the way in which we live and the degree of fulfillment and meaning that we, that we derive from life.
We can do so much better by ourfamilies and our communities, and we can do so much better in terms of the organizations of which we're a part, both in terms of the impact that those organizations have in the wider world.
(11:47):
So I'm particularly involved inorganizations that are purpose beyond profit, but also in terms of the cultures that we create in organizations.
And rather than just cultures of hamsterwheels and cultures where people can actually thrive and do their best work and therefore deliver the maximum impact.
(12:09):
I started my career as a socialworker and a probation officer.
So I went from Oxford University toworking with the homeless on the streets of Oxford and then got into social work and probation and then loved it, learned probably Most of what I know about building relationships with all kinds
of people as a means for change in thatcontext, but then got really frustrated and quite bored, not by the client work, but by the organizational culture and the leadership of the public sector.
(12:38):
I, I left and I becamea management consultant.
I joined a management consultancyand spent 10 years there, stimulated, learning, growing, having loads of variety, being stimulated in a very different way, but organizational culture and the leadership were also really lacking.
(12:59):
And so I left again, I made anotherbig change and like 12 years ago now, left and set up Neon.
and.
that's where I feel as though all of the,a genuine, I think on my website it says something like, I genuinely feel like everything that I've lived and done before is contributed to what I'm doing now.
But I do genuinely feel that way.
And obviously on a day to day basis,there are good days and bad days.
(13:21):
And sometimes I'm like, Oh God, am Ireally making any difference at all?
But I think I'm pretty lucky really.
Cause most days I get to make.
Some kind of difference, howeversmall, to somebody's life or somebody's way of being.
And, that helps a lot.
Helps with my existential tendencies.
It's all, it's all selfish in the end.
(13:42):
well, we're all selfish altruistsprobably, but there is that ripple effect as well, I think, because yeah, you might make a small difference in somebody's life, but then they go on to make a small difference in other people's life.
And that ripples through theorganization, the family, the community.
And I think that is an incrediblecontribution to the world because we can all just look out for ourselves but actually by being there for other people and making that small difference it's only with small differences that we make big ones.
(14:17):
Well, yeah, exactly.
Sometimes it can feel insufficient,Brene Brown kind of writes a lot about, what's that, her favourite quote that she talks about, you know, the importance, I can't remember the exact quote, but the importance of, daring greatly, of being in the ring.
daring greatly.
So even if you kind of die daringgreatly, as long as you're trying, you know, the idea of, of not trying feels way worse to me than trying and not necessarily succeeding.
(14:45):
I mean, my mission to change the worldof work is huge and vast and I'm not going to revolutionize the world of work, but I do find when I remind myself that that's what I'm about in my organizational work, it does kind of galvanize something inside me.
all that stuff that Simon Sinekand others talk about, about when you're clear about your purpose, it has a sort of solidifying effect.
(15:07):
You can kind of feel it and itfuels your motivation, your energy.
When you get up in the morning, it's true.
It's really true.
It is.
And having something greaterthan ourselves to believe in it is, is that, isn't it?
And you were talking aboutthe revolutionizing work.
I mean, that's what I talk about.
I say, I'm here torevolutionize workplaces.
Yay!
yay.
(15:28):
Of course you can't do it on your own.
But if there's enough people talkinglike that, then I think that's part of the revolution as well, isn't it?
I'm part of that revolutionand the words that somebody.
gave me, gifted me almost.
It's seismic shift.
So there, you know, seismic, yes.
(15:49):
Yeah,
and you have to, don't you?
If you don't think big andimpossible, then it's very easy to go back down into micro stuff.
And I think that's a bit likein our own lives as well.
if we don't sometimes think, well,what would I really like to do?
It's very easy to just stay backin doing the daily grind that
Back on the hamster wheel.
(16:11):
Back on the hamster wheel,
And you talked about something elsethere and it reminded me of a formula, not a mathematical one or a numbers one that I saw on your website.
Because I don't see this veryoften and I have a formula it's different, but it's like one word plus one word equals another and
Oh yeah,
So mine is courage andcuriosity equals possibilities.
(16:36):
And that's my coaching ethos.
And the one I saw that Iloved on yours is sensitivity.
Oh no, this was a LinkedIn
Oh yeah,
Yeah.
Sensitivity and strength equal impact,which I think that's very powerful.
God, that was actually, I think thatwas this week or last week that I read.
(16:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you know, again, BreneBrown talks a lot, a lot, doesn't she, about, about vulnerability.
and I was using the word sensitivity.
Yeah, I got, I mean, partly, and Iwas reflecting on the fact that I'm somebody that, probably sounds and I think looks and comes across as confident and strong and capable and blah, blah, blah, all those things.
(17:18):
Which,
you went to Oxford, so
oh, that's what, oh, exactly.
and I'm tall and I speakin quite a low voice.
I, all of these things, interestingly,and there's a big gender dynamic in all of this, of course.
But anyway, all, and the sum totalis, Quite a lot of people find me either intimidating or, I don't know, a bit much, or a lot much.
(17:38):
But actually, I mean,those things are true.
Not that I'm necessarily intimidating or
or too much.
or too, or too much.
But, but I, it's true that I,I, I am, I, I am quite strong.
I am very independent.
I like to think I'm quite capable, butactually what people do not see at all.
mainly, but I guess because I don'tproject it is, is I am like one of the most easily hurt, most sensitive people I laugh because I never imagined that I would say this on a podcast, but,
(18:09):
Oh, you haven't been on my podcast before.
But it's really true.
And I think, that the particular, postthat you're just talking about, I was reflecting on there's a particular photograph of me that my mother's had on her wall for decades, which is, I think it was, I don't know how old I am, and it may be about nine or something.
I really love the photo, but it also,it does genuinely make me sad when I look at it because in the eyes of this nine year old, she looks sad.
(18:35):
She looks wise and she looks sad.
And I think I was already at that age.
My parents had divorced.
My family was a bit of a, stillis, a complete basket case.
anyway, and so then I was reflecting onthese two things of kind of sensitivity and strength, which are so different.
And one, the kind of strengththing is the thing that mainly the world values and calls upon and rewards and respects and, pays.
(19:04):
And yet, the sensitivity or thevulnerability, whatever you want to call it, A, the vast majority of people, except perhaps psychopaths, have it.
and often we learn to, keep it verytightly under wraps, keep it under armor.
And yet, It's often that softness thatcan create the most wonderful ripples actually, again, whether it's in our own lives or whether it's in, communities or, or in, on organizations in terms of people in leadership positions.
(19:35):
So yeah, sensitivity and strength
And they're not mutually exclusive either.
I think that's the thing, isn't it?
We tend to go, Oh, well,that person's strong.
end off.
They couldn't possibly be sensitiveor that person's very sensitive, so there's no strength in them.
And, and actually, all of us areso many things, that embracing those contrasting things in yourself, it's really nice as well.
(20:03):
Yeah, completely.
I think we do, I mean, and I'm guiltyof this still, I live, of living in quite a binary world where it's either that or it's that, but what if it's both, you know, what if it's,
Both and.
both and, exactly, ratherthan, rather than either or.
Yeah.
and
you've mentioned leadership andorganizations, and in particular, you made reference to organizations you left because leadership was lacking.
(20:33):
So where are we in thisleadership development?
Oh, blimey.
Yeah.
But it's fascinating, isn't it,Kate, like, how long will we talk about this stuff before change is more evident in the world.
And that thing that is soimportant is no longer lacking.
(20:58):
Well.
I don't know, obviously.
I don't even know.
Like, your question, where are we at?
I mean, because I'm conscious that Ilive in a little bit of an echo chamber, in as much as given the kind of work that I do, I, I know and I'm connected to a lot of people who, Are in the business of leadership development and therefore share a similar ish mission like, like you and I, and, and also on the surface, I do think that there's a movement in the right direction.
(21:25):
I do.
I do think there is, I think thereis much more awareness of, for example, the wellbeing agenda.
I mean, I, I definitely thinkthere's more talk about it than there is action underneath it.
Still, I think, I think therehas been movement, particularly, particularly since COVID.
But I think it's partlya generational thing.
The people who are in leadership positionsnow and senior leadership positions now are kind of my age or older, you know, in their sort of 50s or 60s.
(21:55):
You know, with the best intentions inthe world, they are products of the systems in which they have grown up, which are definitely, you know, a much more traditional, much more command and control, much more just drive, drive, drive, drive, much more task and hamster wheel orientated, really.
It's all about pace and speedand delivery at all costs.
(22:16):
People don't really matter.
why are you asking me how I feel?
What relevance does that have?
I know best.
I just need to get you all to on thesame page, all that kind of stuff.
but I work with a whole range oforganizations, including some, I work with a big engineering company.
and you know, even there, andI, I mean, I love them dearly.
I've been working with them for years.
(22:36):
but they're engineers, they'reprogram managers, they're very, you know, insights read.
So very fiery, very justdo stuff, they're doers.
directives.
Very quite directive, yeah.
But even there, there's An increasingrecognition that something different is required in terms of leadership in order to move the organization forward given the challenges that exist and some of the people realities that exist.
(23:04):
So I think there, there is, kindof reason for cautious optimism.
but there's, yeah, we stillgot a lot of work to do.
We do.
And I was reading something earlier todayabout how actually we, organizations will say, well, people in organizations, because an organization doesn't exist without people, but they will look to technology strategy and structure.
(23:30):
Sure.
To make changes when actually it's thepeople and the relationships that need the work and will make the changes.
And that is still, even though it'sproven and there's evidence and all of that, it's still a slow burn to get that mentality working or not working, but embed more within the organizations.
(23:55):
Yeah.
Yeah, you probably know, youknow, I talk about deeply human organizations and deeply human leadership, which is my, I don't know, brand, if you like, of leadership.
And so about moving from hamster to human.
So like try, which is at the centerof the sort of shift that I'm about in terms of the work that I do and trying to help organizations get off the hamster wheel and move away from the hamster wheel culture where people are spinning frantically and busy, but not really productive.
(24:24):
And.
frantic, but not necessarily makingany progress and definitely not feeling connected or creative or fulfilled in any way.
And on performance kind of notnecessarily being that great either.
And moving from that to a deeplyhuman model, which is much more people orientated in essence, where people feel much more connected to a sense of purpose, not just in terms of, some label above the door in, I don't know, a charity or development organization, but actually feel it on a day to day basis in terms of the work that they do, where
(24:58):
there's a sense of connection that existsbetween people like, within professional communities, which is my name for teams, or, and certainly between managers and leaders and their people, where people kind of have a sense of agency and a sense of belief that things are possible, where leaders are aware of the impact.
That they have, and use that as aforce for good and where there's care, you know, where people kind of care for each other and also, where they look after themselves.
(25:26):
Well, I'm also a big believerin individual responsibility.
And as adults, I think sometimes Iget the impression that people expect organizations to sort of do everything for them, which, and I'm a massive advocate of organizations doing more, but, equally, I think that generally.
We as individuals need to do a littlebit more to even some of the basic things like exercise and diet and sleep and being clear about what it is that we want from our work and developing our ways of saying no and our boundaries and all of that stuff.
(26:01):
So, so yeah, hamster to hamster to human.
Raise the flag.
Need to get a flag made.
It might be
Yeah, it might be a newOlympic sports case,
a new Olympic sport.
Imagine that.
Yeah, yeah.
That's something else I'vebeen writing a lot about.
Actually, I don't know if we've got timeto talk about that, but the Olympics has really got me thinking about this whole thing about what is success.
(26:27):
I mean, I was completelyobsessed with the Olympics.
I absolutely, I haven't watched any ofthe Paralympics, I have to confess, but.
They haven't started yet,
Oh, oh, oh, oh, great.
Still got time.
That's all right then.
yeah, found it utterly uplifting.
Absolutely loved it.
Watched loads of it.
amazing stories of seemingly ordinarypeople doing extraordinary things and all the family connections, post the Tokyo games, family and friends being in the stands and celebrating and amazing stories of recovery from injury, all this stuff.
(27:00):
when I thought about it a little bit more,and it was particularly brought home to me by this British marathon runner, Rose Harvey, who another incredible story, a woman who only started running in 2020.
Wow.
She was a lawyer, she was made redundantduring COVID, like what can I do, I'll start up four years later, she's an Olympian running in the marathon.
However, I mean that, that,amazing, absolutely extraordinary, flipping fantastic, go Rose.
(27:24):
However, it turns out That,well, she started running, and she was in complete agony.
utter agony, incredible pain, thedownhills, this marathon, race in, course, this, in Paris, was apparently incredibly difficult, hills and what have you.
Cut a long story short,she had a stress fracture.
(27:44):
She ran 24 miles with a stress fracturein her leg, and she commented afterwards that she knew there was something seriously wrong, but she could not face the possibility of not finishing the race.
And I just think, was that heroic,or was that actually kind of quite heartbreakingly tragic in terms of somebody not feeling able to, I don't know, face the, the prospect of, of not having achieved, not having succeeded in a particular way.
(28:16):
And you know, Adam Peaty.
Another Olympian who after, I think thelast Olympic Games was quoted as saying, two gold medals don't make you happy, massive depression, alcoholism in a, really, really bad, bad place, questioning kind of, you know, what's it all about.
So yeah, what is success really?
Is it about gold medals and promotionsand status and money and all of those traditional accoutrements of success, or is it about something different?
(28:46):
Or is it not an either or?
going back to our binary thing.
And, and
Yeah.
in the Olympics, I didn't know aboutRose, but Adam Petey certainly, and, but so many of the stories were that triumph over adversity.
And a lot of the adversity thatpeople talked about for, you see it coming into sport more and more, is people's mental health challenges and even social health challenges.
(29:12):
Because I think the Contrast between theTokyo Olympics and the Paris Olympics was phenomenal for a lot of people as well.
and at the end of theday, it's also sport.
so people do lose their batonin the middle of a race and all these different things
Yeah.
And like for me, one of the bestmoments of the games was seeing an Irish sprinting team coming forth in the by 400 women's relays, which Blew my mind!
(29:42):
Never would I haveimagined that happening.
I do think there's somethingspectacular about sport for that and brings us together in everything.
Yeah.
Well yeah, how do they manage themselvesand what's too much and what's enough and what's success and what's the purpose and afterwards what happens and I think that's It's something as well that's a real challenge for
(30:09):
I wonder how many of them are copingwell with their mental health now.
I mean, imagine you likenothing else matters.
Your relationships, yourfamily, your everything.
It all goes out the window.
You're focused for four years.
You're focused on that one race andeither you win or you don't win.
And then, I mean, I find it hardtransitioning from a nice holiday back to work, I like, oh yeah, obviously aside from that, I'm absolutely completely on, on track to be some sort of Olympic medalist.
(30:42):
Not, but God, I can't imagine it.
I hope that I'm, in fact, I needto, track them all down on Instagram and send them my best wishes and tell them not to feel too miserable.
And some of them will and some ofthem won't because some of them are very grounded or rounded or whatever it is and again, it's on a spectrum.
But speaking of holidays, because oneof the, my favorite books of yours was about a holiday and actually, oh, I'm not even going to spoil it, but I'd like you to talk about the lessons
(31:13):
Oh my gosh.
leadership and followership, whichI just loved from that holiday.
If you can.
Yeah.
Well, so the holiday you're talkingto, I went to India earlier this year.
I went to Rishikesh in Northern Indiaand there were two bits to this holiday.
One was a yoga retreat and then thesecond bit was, I organized independently to go trekking in the Himalayas.
(31:34):
So it was four, four days and three nightswith, as it turned out, a ridiculously, negligent amount of research into what was going to be involved because I'd completely missed the fact that there was going to be a summit that there was going to be snow that we were going to be at flipping 4000 meters altitude.
I just read that it was the shortesttrack available in the area.
They talked about flowers in the valley.
(31:55):
I was like, brilliant.
Perfect.
But in the event, it wasreally flipping hard.
And, and, Yeah, there were actually twoof us doing it, but I guess it was really interesting because we had this wonderful guide who was at least half my age, local guy, who just had a very gentle spirit, but, was a wonderful companion and guide.
(32:19):
I was, we were both anxious, but I'lljust talk about, I'll just talk about myself rather than my friend that came with me, but certainly as the thing approached, I was really anxious about what had I let myself in for.
I knew by this point that therewas going to be snow and crampons were going to be required.
I knew there was some sort of summit.
I was like, Oh Jesus, you know, I'm 54.
(32:39):
I'm not 20.
This is like a really big mistake.
Who are these people?
I only spent about half an hourresearching them on Google.
Are they going to be there?
Like, will we get there?
all those kind of voices in your head.
Anyway, at the point at which we, we metthem at like 6am or something down on the road beneath the yoga retreat place.
They were there, they were ontime, they were wonderfully hospitable and kind and friendly.
(33:04):
At that point, I just completely relaxed.
I was like, this is, I've done my bit,I've packed, I've sort of prepared.
But now, I'm just going toput myself in their hands.
There's nothing more I can do.
they know, they'll tell mewhat I need to do and when.
What an absolute relief that was.
(33:26):
And I was very happy just to bekind of clueless and in there.
Sort of, you know, I, I'd taken, I didn'thave to take crampons, but I'd taken the kind of stuff that, that, that I needed.
Follow their instructions, eat whatI'm supposed to eat, get up when I'm supposed to get up, follow him up the difficult bits, take a rest, be careful of altitude, da da da, sickness, da da da.
(33:49):
And amazingly, we both made it to thetop of this flipping mountain and, and even more miraculously in my case, coming back down, which I found particularly terrifying, but, it really was a kind of interesting experience in, you can't have
leaders without followers and it takesquite a lot to be a follower, to trust the person that you're following just to be able to let go in a way and put your, in this case, my safety and well being.
(34:20):
Into somebody else, which,you know, in this case, I've known for about five minutes.
so it was, it was a really, it was,I've been lucky enough to travel a lot in my life, but, this was definitely has gone into like one of the top five.
travel experiences of, of my life.
The other thing I'm going to mentionquickly is it was also the festival of Holi while I was in India on the first day that we were there.
(34:44):
And, there are also, there's apicture on LinkedIn somewhere of me grinning insanely, absolutely covered in neon colors.
Paint and powder, and wholly forthose that don't know is that I think it's the festival kind of Welcoming spring and the energy of spring everyone goes completely nuts.
Everybody's chucking literally powder atyou buckets of water chucked off the tops of Houses by women in saris with kids lobbing balloons full of colored water at you I mean absolutely filthy soaking wet Hair matted in paint, literally covered head to foot, but what amazing joy.
(35:26):
It was just so joyful.
again, when do you, as an adult, certainlyin the UK, when do you get a chance, completely sober, not a drop of alcohol in sight, just to be so playfully joyous, the hamster wheel can be all very serious and all very, yeah, a far cry from that.
(35:50):
Wild abandon is thephrase that comes to mind.
Honestly.
I absolutely loved it.
What a fantastic trip that was.
Thank you for asking me about that.
And of course you can havewild abandon anytime you want.
It is perfectly within reach.
It might not be that colorful andthat festive, but, but we can, we constrain ourselves, don't we, Kate?
(36:12):
We have time for one more questionand I'm going to go full circle and back to another circle.
Oh yeah.
And which is your Neon Work Thrivometer,
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
another colourful wheel thatyou had on your website.
Thrivometer,
I call it.
So I have a, I have a.
(36:33):
yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I actually have a life Thrivometerand a work Thrivometer.
So, and we can maybe include it inthe show notes cause they're free, free resources that, people can use.
but basically this is aboutidentifying, I think there are 10 different, key ingredients, if you like, to thriving at work.
(36:53):
So things like connection, they actuallyfeeling connected with people at work rather than completely isolated things like flexibility, things like having a sense of autonomy, things like having a sense of growing and developing things like having some sense of balance or between work and non work things like having some sense of belonging, et cetera.
(37:14):
So.
I've pulled these into, this model thatI call the, the work Thrive O Meter, and there's a free worksheet that people can use where you can, I don't know, you can basically score yourself in these various areas and see how you think you're doing.
I mean, some people have told me thatthey've used it in conversations with their line managers, to get into a conversation, not just about the, the task, the focus of their daily work, but about all the things that they need in their work life, in the context of the Work Thrivometer or their life life, in terms of the Life Thrivometer, needs to be able to, to flourish and to thrive.
(37:56):
And I just firmly believe thatpeople who feel well, Perform well, we do our best work when we're feeling all of those things.
And, I get that, for some peoplehaving a job is enough, and I do completely understand that it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs in a way.
And for many millions of peoplearound the world, billions of people around the world, having a job of any kind that enables them to get some food on the table is.
(38:24):
fantastic and is, is okay.
So I'm talking from quite a privileged,position for those people for whom, who have the opportunity for more.
so not just enough to sort of putfood on the table and a roof over your head, but also an opportunity to genuinely, feel a sense of connection and meaning and fulfillment and growth.
(38:47):
That's what I would like foras many people as possible.
So, So yeah, that's the life throbometer,also in the shape of a petal.
Slash wheel, slash, I'mnot quite sure what, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, the petals definitely,that's what I thought more than the, the ship's navigational.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you've used the words.
(39:09):
connection and belonging quite abit throughout our conversation.
So I'm going to say that they,those two words in particular are quite important to you.
Mm hmm.
Can we belong without being connected?
And can we feel connectedwithout feeling like we belong?
(39:33):
Woo!
Yeah.
You can't ask me a question like that!
Well, I would say you can't feela sense of belonging without a sense of connection to yourself.
there's a lot of social pressureand I'm going to say propaganda about the importance of relationship and the importance, whether it's family or friends or what have you.
(39:58):
And, yes, we're social animals,but sometimes I think that what is forgotten is about the importance of connection to self.
And, I actually live on my own.
I don't have children.
I'm not married.
I'm very happy with that situation.
I don't feel that my life is withoutlove or connection, and I'm also very grateful to the fact that I have learned, I have developed a sense of connection with myself.
(40:24):
Not necessarily one that, when I was18 or 20 I would have said, I know what I would like, thank you very much.
But.
I think that if you can keep yourselfcompany, if you can be a companion to yourself, if you can be, your own best kind of playmate and your own best Hal on holiday it's the most wonderful kind of grounding and pathway to a sense of belonging in life, whereby, all the rest is a bonus.
(40:52):
And it's, again, it's not aneither or, but, So there you go.
That's what I'd say.
It's not possible to have a senseof belonging without a strong sense of connection to self.
Yeah.
that was lovely.
Thank you for sharing that.
and yeah, that connection to selfand enjoying your own company.
That's what I always say isthat I enjoy my own company.
(41:14):
And I know a lot of people thatdon't want to be on their own, but I think at a certain point in life.
Hopefully it does become easierfor everyone to do that because it is nice to hang out with yourself.
From time to time.
I think I'm fantastic company.
there you go!
Yeah,
(41:34):
I'm in a really bad mood when,you know, well, you know,
that isn't the samefor everyone, I'm sure.
Exactly.
Kate, thank you.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
We've gone all over the place
have, I've loved it.
Thank you for the conversation.
I've really enjoyed it.
It's been a colourful conversation, andwe'll put those links in the show notes for anybody that would like to try the, Thrivometers, the Work or Life ones.
(41:59):
And, if anyone would like to connectwith you, Kate, because your name is like, You know, how many Kate Jones are there in the world?
yeah, there are probably quite a lot.
the best way I think isprobably through LinkedIn.
So if you type in Kate Jones neon,into LinkedIn, then you'll find me.
and then maybe if we, share in the shownotes the link to my link tree, then people can, they'll also be able to find the, these thrive, these various things that we've mentioned in there.
(42:30):
in the conversation, the Thrive OMeter worksheets and what have you.
So, so yeah, but LinkedIn, I would say isprobably the easiest way to connect to me.
I'm always delighted to connect with,connect, connect, connect, connect, that word again, but to connect with people.
So yeah, it would belovely to hear from folk.
Kate hosts a lot on LinkedInand it's always enjoyable and you'll learn something as well.
(42:53):
So definitely worth connectingor at least following.
Kate, thank, thank you somuch for your time today.
It's been a real pleasure.
I've loved it.
Really loved it.
Thank you so much.
You're very welcome.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
(43:17):
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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