March 1, 2025 • 55 mins
"You can hear the silence emerging in the room. You can hear the sound of silence. There's a peace that comes with, a harmony that comes from it. It offers an opportunity for more sharing, more cooperation, less competition. So it's very generative." Carissa Bub
Carissa Bub and I explore the transformative power of silence in leadership and life. We dive into the paradox of silence - how it can feel awkward or even frightening, yet hold the potential for profound connection and insight. We discuss how cultivating stillness can unlock deeper awareness, relational intelligence, and a new level of courageous leadership. By tapping into stillness, leaders can listen more deeply, respond with empathy, and foster psychological safety within teams. Carissa shares her journey of embracing silence as a resource, not just as a practice but as a way of being that enhances presence, influence and authentic leadership. We also discuss the role of reflective practices, playfulness, and trusting in life’s unfolding mystery.
Carissa Bub is a Leadership and Systems Coach on a mission to re-humanise organisations. With one foot firmly in the business world and the other gently planted in the earth, she enables leaders and teams to navigate complex change with dignity and agency. For 25 years, she's partnered with C-suite leaders to build stronger connections - from the boardroom to the marketplace - bringing strength and heart to strategic dialogue. As a seasoned facilitator now trained in nature-based practices, she invites her clients to take off their shoes, both physically and metaphorically, deepening their trust in life and empowering them to use their gifts for the benefit of all life. What sets Carissa apart is her unique blend of systemic coaching expertise and her background as a BBC journalist turned media trainer. She creates spaces where authentic communication catalyses real change, helping leaders develop both their inner presence and outer voice to shape lasting impact. As faculty at CRRGlobal and Six Team Conditions, she helps coaches and consultants develop their practice in systemic transformation. A TEDx speaker, Carissa challenges organisations to think differently about leadership and change, cultivating environments where people and performance naturally thrive.
Connect with Carissa:
Through her website: www.carissabub.com
On LinkedIn
Resources Mentioned:
Conclave – an example of silence and uncertainty in leadership moments.
Atomic Habits by James Clear
The Sound of Silence by Simon & Garfunkel
Marcel Marceau – influenced Carissa’s fascination with silence
Brother David Steindl-Rast – for his work on gratefulness and trust in life.
Eckhart Tolle – someone who embodies playfulness and presence.
Brahma Kumaris (BKs) – their practice of “Just a Minute” silence.
London Writers’ Salon – silent writing sessions.
Center for Awakening – Monday silence gatherings.
On Being with Krista Tippett – Yo-Yo Ma’s discussion on the space between musical notes.
Unlimited Futures - Episode 193 Life Beyond the Numbers
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am absolutelydelighted to welcome Carissa Bub to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Carissa, you're so welcome.
Oh, I am so delighted to be here, Susan.
Thank you so, so much for inviting me.
And, to be met by such a bigsmile and a warm half of a human being is really great.
So thank you.
You're welcome.
(01:35):
I'm particularly looking forwardto this because we're going to talk about something that I'm not sure people really want to talk about.
So it might be interestingto shine a light on silence.
we've had some back and forth prior tothis conversation, but something you said is how we're going to leap into this conversation, if that's okay with you, because you made a reference to the first episode of 2025, my solo episode and a powerful scene from the movie Conclave.
(02:10):
And.
And you said it was like areally good demonstration of how uncertainty and silence interweave in leadership moments that matter.
So what is it about silence, Carissa?
(02:31):
In the movie there's this moment where
the person who's running this bigevent is effectively leading this incredibly important process on behalf of the Vatican, and, the church.
(02:52):
he's doubting himself.
he's lost.
He doesn't know which way to turn.
there's also the reference topotentially a shadow, a part of himself that he doesn't even realize that he too wants to be Pope.
He's not just facilitating it,but he too may have a part of himself that is hidden to him.
(03:14):
And he's challenged by one of hiscolleagues, and he sits at the edge of his bed, and he goes into prayer, which is what his practice for tapping into the fertile void, which silence offers you.
And the truth is, I've always thoughtthat life is not a problem to be solved, it's a mystery to be unfolded.
(03:41):
And so, in this moment, he's going deepto the source to listen, deeply listen to his inner self, which is a self that is connected to a much bigger energy field.
And to really sense into his,not only his moral compass, but to really listen, deeply listen to what is being asked of him.
(04:06):
What is he being called to do?
What is the possibility ofthis present moment now?
And who does he need to be to meet it?
And leadership is about that all the time.
if I think about my clients, that'swhat they're having to do all the time.
And the world is throwing moreand more uncertainty at us.
There is a faster andfaster pace as we know.
(04:28):
We're on the edge ofmultiple tipping points.
We're moving into a worldbeyond our understanding.
And, I speak about this because 10 yearsago, I was somebody who was working with those same leaders who I am now and asking myself with that same doubt, am I actually big enough to be a conduit for change, to be a container, to hold the space
(04:54):
for these CEOs, these founders, thesemission driven leaders who are responsible for big systemic and systems change, to actually hold that space, the amount of complexity, the amount of complexity.
And I felt no, you know, no.
And so I did a radical act,which was to go and take myself.
(05:17):
offline, which takes some courage, andfind somebody to really, kick me around a bit in the nicest possible loving sense,
to really understand, really listenmore deeply to what is it that's wanting to emerge with me and how do you expand your presence and be that authentic presence that allows those very courageous conversations to happen.
(05:43):
So I've said a lot, I'll stop there for aminute and let you ask another question.
No, thank you, Carissa.
And I mean, there was a lot in that.
I liked the term you used, fertile void.
And I'm getting the image of a wellspring.
(06:05):
So it's almost like when youfind that place of settling in silence, that the flow will begin.
Yet, I think silence issomething we're afraid of.
We don't want to be in silence.
we want the distraction.
(06:27):
So how do you invitepeople into that world?
So first I want to answer or speakto this idea that silence can be frightening, it can be scary.
And I want to acknowledge that somepeople may use silence as a sort of psychological weapon, if you want.
(06:52):
I'm not talking about that here.
I'm talking about that we can allfeel the awkwardness of silence.
And one of the reasons it's soawkward is usually we're holding our
So one of the ways to invite peopleinto silence is to get them into breath.
It's to go into the body.
(07:14):
we all know the rise of somatic coachingand body leadership, but it is to allow yourself to really experience silence as a, an inner resource, something that already sits within you and to stillness, to really stop.
(07:35):
The easiest thing is to focus on breath.
And to ground yourself by puttingand relaxing your feet on the floor.
It is that simple to actually allowthe space within, the breath within, and just to be with the experience, whatever it is, the content actually doesn't matter as much.
(07:55):
What matters is they'reallowing the fullness of the experience without judgment.
And then you get to a presence, you getto a sort of authentic presence, and you're able to handle it and hold it.
Breathe into it, breathe throughit, into what wants to emerge next.
(08:19):
And this, I think, is the key.
plans are great.
We're working with moreand more emergent change.
And that's what leaders needto do today, is work at how do you work with what is there.
It's not that the silence starts whenyou tap into it, it's always there.
It's how do we tap into it and useit, listen, listen more deeply to ourselves and to others, and to the, um,
(08:46):
everything's energy, the biggersource that is available.
To bring some insight into whateverwe're facing in the moment.
And we live in an active world, aworld where doing, doing, doing, doing, forging ahead, all of these kinds of terms that we have are like religion you could almost say back to conclave.
(09:16):
So when you introduce this conceptto a leader who is used to going, going, going, doing, doing, doing,
it's their resistance.
Or do people know?
(09:36):
First, you need to showup in that space yourself.
So we are our practices andwe are our patterns, right?
So we are our practices.
And this is why I did what I did.
Because when you can show up with thatstillness and that calmness yourself, I'm also a coaching supervisor and a lot of my, the feedback I get is you kind of walk the talk when it comes to that, cultivating that stillness.
(10:05):
Other leaders will say you're so calm,
bring the breath with you, bring thespaciousness with you, and it kind of is infectious, it creates a different vibrational field in the room, so unconsciously you see the ease, the flowing, and so when I might suggest it, and of course we're not going to go into a 20 minute mindfulness practice or something, it's something as simple as Just notice your feet.
(10:38):
And you would be amazed how oftenpeople have said to me, that was really useful when you told me to just put my feet on the floor.
Very simple, right?
and I don't want to give atheory or an explanation often.
It's an experience and when somebodysuddenly experiences the easing and the presence and they can suddenly connect with their observer, right?
(11:03):
The observer self that can see themselves.
And then they realize, actually, ifI keep practicing this, the space grows a little bit bigger and wider.
And suddenly I not only have awareness,I have some choice in this moment, how to respond, not just react from fear.
They can feel the anxiety.
(11:24):
They understand what releases the anxiety.
And then they understand, ah,yeah, actually, I can do this.
There's a beautifulsimplicity to it, isn't there?
it's something like you said thatearlier, that it's already there.
It's, it's a resource to be tapped into.
(11:46):
And I think for many of us.
I'm generalizing, but, it's notthe first thing that comes to mind.
And often it's like, we need tofocus more rather than just stop.
Yeah.
Another way is if you're, especiallywith a team, you can just say, let's just pause for a minute and write.
(12:06):
So reflective writing.
Again, it creates the same sortof energetic shift and you can hear, you can hear the silence emerging in the room, right?
You can hear the sound of silence.
There's a peace that comes with,a harmony that comes from it.
It offers an opportunity for more sharing,more cooperation, less competition.
(12:28):
So it's very generative, so that'sanother way that it works, definitely.
Or if you're running a retreat andyou've got, you know, everybody's sitting in a circle and there's this sudden moment where everybody just goes incredibly quiet.
either there's something deeper that'sbeing processed, something that not, that's not been said yet, and that takes some courage to say, or there's just this moment of deep connection and we're just savoring the moment.
(12:59):
what that then generates veryquickly is a sense of awe and wonderment, and a delight.
You see a sort of delight crossingpeople's faces, like they've suddenly remembered something that they'd lost touch with.
So for everyone listening, I think,listen back to some of that if you're curious about the power of silence.
(13:26):
there was a LinkedIn postyou wrote, Carissa, that got me to ask you to come on.
you talked about silenceoperating in stereo.
So maybe you could say more about that.
Well, I'll link that to my ownpersonal experience, during COVID, unfortunately, it affected my left ear.
(13:52):
So the hearing in my leftear is pretty much gone.
And, last year was a prettypainful process of lots of steroid injections to get rid of it.
But one of the things that I didwas go away for three days to walk in silence across Dartmoor, the small group of people.
And that was the first time thatI've been, out in nature, where, I suddenly heard dead silence, which comes from deafness in that left ear, versus the profound silence, which is tapped into listening to a much bigger energetic feel, like the sound of silence that, my favorite, one of my favorite songs ever of Simon
(14:38):
too.
You know, absolutely.
Just this incredible connectionto the kind of numinous or the infinite or just the everything.
We talk about interconnectedness now.
People get it, right?
There's just this, source of energy.
And in the silence and I've alwaysthought it carries in the wind.
(14:59):
I love listening to thewind to take me there.
But when I walked across the desert forthree weeks, I was mostly in silence.
And I really heard that stereo silence.
So it is something which transcends time.
Suddenly you are no longer inlinear time, in Kronos time.
You are in Kairos time, asthey call it, deep time.
(15:23):
And today, as I said, we're inthis edge of these multiple tipping points and we're all sort of asking ourselves, what do I need to do?
Who do I need to be?
Many people are,
often what comes up, even if you knowthe answer, do you have the courage?
And there's something about tapping intothat silence and stereo moment where you feel like all of what came before and all of life force has suddenly got your back.
(15:57):
And it's just this.
Unbelievably explosive momentI don't do enough mindfulness meditation or deep meditation to say I've lost my sense of self.
In that moment, you can honestlysay that you are interconnected with a force of energy, which is just like feeling like superhuman and the ego is completely quiet.
(16:20):
Because something much,much bigger has emerged.
And that's just huge.
We talk about unlocking humanpotential in organizations.
Well, imagine if, thisbecame more of a practice.
What's possible?
Yeah, absolutely.
And perhaps a very simple glimpse ofthat is because he talked about awe and wonderment when you stop to look at a sunset or a sunrise for a moment you're not really there you're almost part of it and everything stops In this glorious
(17:04):
scene that's unfolding in front of youand that creates that moment of stillness and silence, I think, if people are curious what this might be like, that's, what I'm taking from what you're saying.
Yes.
James Clear has written this book,Atomic Habits, and it seems to be, you know, crashing through the bestseller list, if you've listened to him or read it before, it is a great book.
(17:30):
And, Really what we're talking abouthere is creating those, micro moments to tap into something, an energetic presence of which you are part.
And it's that we forgetthat we're part of it.
We do.
(17:51):
Because we're just tied into whatwe're doing and what's next and yeah, and, and the mind takes over.
The mind is very happy tobe active all the time.
so
this can be transformative for leaders,on a number of levels, I think, and it would be great to hear how,
(18:20):
So how do you do it?
So we've talked a lot about individuals,I'm a former broadcast journalist.
I've done a lot of work to help.
Working with leaders who want to elevatetheir impact and strategic influence and to really maximize their legacy, right?
So whether that is the business thatthey're building, whether that's in their tenure and the role that they're in to really deliver on the vision that they've set out, whether it's about changing policy that's going to improve and better the world and people's lives.
(18:51):
that.
element of communication ever goes away.
Can you really deeply authenticallyconnect through your presence, through your words, and people can feel when it's fake and it's not, we know, right?
Can I trust this person?
So for many, many years, the way I've usedit is to really what I The power of the pause, which anybody who's helps anybody with speaking and you do it beautifully.
(19:20):
I've listened to a number of yourpodcasts, but there is nothing as powerful as just taking pause.
why don't people pause very often?
there could be a belief that,you know, people will think I'm stupid and I've forgotten my words.
It could be something like thatkind of assumption, or it's just a habit that nobody's noticing.
(19:42):
So I've used it for many,many years in that context.
But when I'm working with teamsnow, I deliberately create moments.
the Brahmin Kumaris, I don't know ifanybody's heard of them, the BKs as they're called, tend to be women run in from India and really they're about peace, but they have this very neat little activity called just a minute.
(20:04):
And once an hour, if you go anywherewhere they are, there's a bell that goes for a minute of silence.
So there's just a minute.
It doesn't take a long time.
we know three deep breathswill change your state.
So I will bring that in.
I'll encourage reflective writing.
There is always a go inward before gooutward in some sort of a check in.
(20:28):
And really to encourageteams to make it a norm.
And then again, in the organizationalspace, how do you, how do you create spaces for this to happen?
That's more tricky in today'sworld, in a hybrid world.
And
there are many, many, well, I can't saythere are many, many ways of doing it, but if I think about where it's worked well is where there's a founder or the team.
(20:55):
Senior leader is modeling,contemplation, reflection,
where I'll build that.
I think the reflective writing isa very powerful way when you're doing, and reflective practices.
So if we're designing a program runningwhat I call leadership reflection circles, but they're really peer groups to encourage and deepen that awareness.
(21:23):
And there's very often cultivatingstillness as you have to do as a coach.
So many leaders today, not only havingto Coach individuals, but coach teams and to be that facilitator to, to show up with that presence, they need to practice more that cultivating stillness.
So there's many opportunities tobring it in and through stillness you tap into the silence.
(21:51):
that relational peaceor that Group silence.
That's quite powerful.
To get into a space where everybody'sokay, settled into just being still or being silent or feeling perhaps that whatever is hoping to emerge.
(22:21):
I think it also, doessomething for the brainwaves.
it allows this collectiveintelligence to emerge that may not come through otherwise.
Yeah, I think what we, we do probablyneed to balance, and I was going to ask you some questions of how you use this, but I think we need to balance it.
There's a lot of conversation, andcertainly I'm known as somebody who's usually around because there's a conversation going on.
(22:47):
So it's not about sitting in aroom forever and ever and ever.
However, there are times.
If you're sitting in a room witha team where you know it's about allowing people the opportunity where there's now enough safety, but now we need to tap into courage.
Somebody needs to dare to care, right?
Dare to care.
(23:08):
To speak their truth.
And there, the most useful thing canbe to sit with this loving presence.
Yeah, that's, you know, that ifyou've really been in the presence of somebody brings that loving presence, they don't have to say anything.
It's such a deep and rich experience.
(23:29):
So if everybody is holding that intention,then the truth can be acknowledged.
And once the truth can be acknowledged,once the system can reveal itself, whether it's a team or a team of teams sitting in a room, once we really acknowledge what needs to be said we can breathe through it, going back to that point of just, without judgment, just be with it, we can, we now have some choices.
(23:56):
The fear is what has us hold our breathand what makes the silence awkward.
If we learn to embody it, we can movebeyond it courageously into action.
beautiful.
And yes, of course, I neverthought for a moment you were sitting around only never speaking.
(24:18):
it's simply that.
It's, it's not common practice perhaps.
and that's, what's alsointeresting about it.
And you, you asked me or youjust said, how do I use it?
And one of the things I do with coachingclients simply is introducing that minute.
of silence.
(24:38):
That suddenly when people reconnect withwho they are somehow and get that glimpse, that space, it starts to shift everything.
And it's so powerful and so simplethat you almost don't want to tell people as part of the practice because they can do it for themselves.
But no, think there's also theaccountability piece that actually when I'm starting something new and I'm about what might happen.
(25:08):
I still have to answer to somebodyand talk about what it's bringing me.
And of course in stillness speaksSo in speaking about what comes through that stillness, people see it, the benefit for themselves,
but the courageous conversation, Carissa.
(25:35):
I think that's such a powerfulway of thinking about it because
There's so much talk in our organizationsand often the emphasis of where we go is misguided or misaligned or misdirected.
And actually that courageousness ofbeing able to say, hold on a minute, what's really happening here and allowing what usually goes unsaid.
(26:08):
to come through.
And I'm, I'm not getting to aquestion here, but yeah, go on.
I was going to say, it's also notonly what's not been said, but what else is here that we've not seen?
Okay, what else is here that's not seen?
(26:29):
So very often what is going on onone level or what's going on in one conversation or one relationship is going on somewhere else, right?
We call it in coaching speak,parallel process, right?
So, what's going on within theleadership team or the board is happening deeper down in the organization.
and that has an impact.
(26:51):
And so, if we can see that if we canactually see, That this constantly changing, living dynamic system that is called an organization or a team or a person or a relationship is, it's constantly changing and moving.
So how the hell do wethink we can see it all?
We can't, we're making educated guesses.
(27:13):
We're trying to do our best, butallowing for that extra little bit of space to see what else haven't we seen.
and sensing into it, just from adeeper, a different intelligence, a physical intelligence, you know, am I at ease in my body or am I actually still very anxious and tense?
(27:36):
can I drop it?
What is my emotion?
What is my mood?
What is the mood in the room?
What we'd call the emotional feel,So being energetics, All of that requires a level of, if you're really going to do it without judgment and just download what you already think is happening, you need to tap into that stillness or that non judgment space that comes out of, being still.
(28:01):
And quiet.
like everything then, I think,
you're reminding me I waswith my, sister, Nisa.
and nephew at the weekend and mynephew is 12 and he was talking about going on a skiing trip from school which is really exciting but he didn't want to be on the beginner's slope
(28:27):
Okay,
he wanted to go straight into theskiing like without even holding on to anything probably and we often want the result of something or we want to be able to do it without the practice And
(28:48):
what's a reminder for people perhapsof the importance of practice?
I would ask you that very same question.
it's everything.
As I said about 10 years ago, Irealized I was running around so fast that, I'm just kind of mimicking.
(29:12):
What's going on in the world?
How can I possibly then have morespace or be a conduit, right?
A vessel, a container for changefor people to become aware of what's there and what they want to change and actually then to hold that process.
and it meant taking time todevelop some new practices.
(29:35):
It meant really having to startfrom saying, I'm going to get lost.
And loss being a very creative act.
So I can unlearn.
and replace my current habitswith more helpful practices.
So first notice my patterns andthen find the right teachers.
(29:57):
and breathwork we knowis so popular today.
Breathwork is clearly one of themost powerful, impactful ways.
I've tried all sorts of things, you know,I've tried psychedelics and other things, but those are nice little experiences you still need to find effectively.
your daily discipline and life offersyou that opportunity all the time.
(30:17):
So
yes, I now have a morning practice,and there was a moment when I realized I put myself before anything else in the day and that was quite a big thing.
And then to become consistent with it.
and can you do the samein the evening, maybe?
It doesn't have to be a long time.
(30:38):
People have a perception it's goingto be a lot of time, but there's something about that practice.
Again, coming to a call, it's very easy togo on and off, a Teams call, a Zoom call.
Are you cultivating that moment ofspaciousness to be there to meet another with a level of curiosity and empathy?
(31:01):
your presence, that is a gift.
so I don't know.
What are your practices?
I have many and I really dothink we are our practices.
I, you know, I believe it and Inow try really and walk that talk.
And one practice is to trust in life andit's very hard to do, but that's where this stillness and silence bit comes up because when you do that, you find that there is this incredibly supportive,
(31:30):
I don't know what you want to call it,energy, space, field, you use your word, consciousness, that is there for you.
Absolutely a holding almost at timesand, well, I suppose the practice.
We're never going to be able to do thingsand get results without the practice and I think practice is constant.
(31:56):
I mean, that's what I feel anyway.
And I have all different types ofpractices, but what you're reminding me there of was, I was on the, the plane the other day my, sister lives in Prague and I got on the flight and the flight was on time and all of that.
It was really relaxed and I had a spareseat beside me and this person, there was a bit of a kerfuffle behind me, I could hear kind of somebody being a bit like, you know, and eventually this person comes and stands in front of me.
(32:26):
So they'd obviously gone too far,couldn't find their seat and then realized they were in the middle seat and they were like, Really kind of, you know, that's my seat there.
I don't like to sit in the middle.
I'm not looking forward to thisflight and I haven't had a cigarette.
And you can see everyone aroundjust kind of like gasping, kind of, oh God, you know.
(32:49):
And I stood up and in that moment,collected myself and I looked at this guy and I said, but you get to sit beside me.
And how did he respond?
Yes,
changed, like everything.
You know that beautiful moment whereyou see how a mind kind of goes, what?
(33:11):
That doesn't make any sense.
And then the laughter follows.
And we spoke for the whole journey.
Our flight was delayed over an hour.
We didn't stop talking untilwe got off the other side.
And I think when you allow stuffto come out and that space, just that moment, because I could have easily gone, Oh my God.
(33:32):
God, how am I going to haveto sit beside this guy?
And then I would be upset andthe tension would be in the air.
But everybody had a goodgiggle around us as well.
yes, exactly.
And I love that.
as you say, you've actuallyfound the gift, right?
In that moment, there was an opportunityfor you to bring humor and to Absolutely shift the dynamic and that
(33:59):
Diffuse the tension.
refuse attention.
and it took, you responded,you didn't react right.
It took a consciousness.
It took an an awakened brain,an awakened heart mind.
Even not head mind to come withthat playfulness, that courage, that authenticity and wonderful.
(34:23):
Yeah, and save the day, save the day.
So that's fabulous.
And I think that's what we are on.
We can tap into much,much more than we do.
It all becomes very, very serious.
And maybe we sound very, very serious.
I am quite playful.
And so I just have to say something.
Silence has been a fascination of minesince I was a little kid because I saw Marcel Marceau when I was a kid, the French mime artist, and I just couldn't believe how somebody could recreate life in such an authentic way that with nothing there, you know, there was everything.
(35:02):
And I said, I see life more as a mysteryto be unfolded rather than a problem to be solved and, and that magic, and that, delight that I felt and I sort of believe that it's possible to unlock that in the, in the client organizations that I work with every day, however serious things are, and they are, and however important.
(35:26):
And, I'm not talking about, ofcourse, these are very often I'm working with for profit businesses and there's a serious level of performance that needs to be achieved.
However, these moments are whatmake it gorgeous, what make it worth it, make life meaningful.
And that's another thing is that silenceallows you to tap into why am I here?
(35:48):
What's important?
What do I really care about?
And when you come and respondfrom that place of what's meaningful, and if you really care about it, you find the courage.
You extend yourself, and we've losttouch of that because we're just going too fast, our brains can't go as fast as we think our body should.
(36:11):
So, Yeah, but the playfulness that isalso accessible, the playful archetype of playfulness, which is where creativity comes and inspiration comes.
Yeah.
That is everything needed today too, whenyou want teams to innovate and you want people to really do things differently.
So all of this comes out of.
(36:34):
A different tempo, a different rhythm,and it requires a trust, a level of trust that there is something, a much deeper wisdom than we are aware of in the room to tap into.
And
I mean, I get it.
And one of the practices I have atthe moment is trusting life more.
(36:58):
And like you said there earlier,that's really difficult.
But I think there's somethingabout the playful side of that too.
And when you wrote to me, yousaid, it's like giving our imagination permission to dance.
And that conjures upsuch an amazing image.
like life is serious.
Absolutely.
(37:19):
Things are serious, but we don'thave to take ourselves so seriously.
And one of the discoveries I made wasI was very serious about my business.
But when I'm with clients andeverything, it's, it's great, you know?
But when I was like focused onmy business, it was hard work and, and, and it doesn't help.
(37:40):
And so there is power in the playfulness.
Massively.
Power in the plague washugely, laughter again.
When we laugh, we breathe.
When we breathe, we getoxygens to our heads.
I mean.
It is science.
and it's not, anythingmore complicated than that.
I've always felt that, for me,it's been really important to kind of get to know the controls, you know, not rather than the video controls or the television controls.
(38:08):
I wanted to understand my own controls.
Like, how do I work exactly?
and again, this is a curious thing.
And to notice from, I was, when I was achild, I lived in many different countries and people spoke different languages so that in that curiosity, what's really going on in the room beyond the words, so hence my excitement about mime and I think probably what naturally drew me to, communication style work, because.
(38:38):
It is a lot about, the connection that theconversation, whether it's verbal or not, that goes on between people and reading that, and being able to quickly get to the essence of things because you're actually listening beyond the words.
And as we know, as coaches, forexample, don't listen to the content, don't listen to the story.
You're listening to what's underneath and.
(39:02):
This is just going another level deeper.
So it takes, it takes it outof the personal altogether.
And there's insights out there,the collective consciousness, the whole idea of genius, right?
That there is the zeitgeist, there is,there's something out there floating out there in the quantum, if you want, that we can access if we just give ourselves permission to do it.
(39:23):
And it,
lean into it almost as well.
And lean into it and to trust.
I really trust it.
I don't know if you've ever heardBrother David Stendhal Rast.
Have you ever heard David Stendhal Rast?
He's Benedictine monk who, Hemust be in his 97 or something.
I, I adore listening to him.
And like other, I think these area lot of mystics, whether you want to call them religious people or mystics, I see them more as mystics.
(39:50):
but certainly people who havefaith in and trust in life.
And he's very well known for gratefulnessand the gratefulness organization.
And if you listen to him, or you listento an Eckhart Tolle, or you listen to a lot of people in that, they are funny.
They are seriously funny.
(40:10):
They get the joke.
it is a game in a way.
There is a joke, there is play.
So bringing that sortof playfulness to life.
so we kind of get over ourselves.
And again, having a bit of spaceto hear the joke and to see your smallness, and find the courage to be a little bit bigger.
(40:32):
Yeah, this is, I
And it brings a humilitywith it as well, I think.
because when we're protectiveof our ego or of our words, there's a contraction too.
just letting go a little bit of that.
enables us, I suppose, if we're not takingourselves as seriously and protecting ourselves, we can also be the same with others and hold that space for them.
(41:00):
ultimately I think I do what I dobecause I want to create a world where there's more love and less fear.
And so really what we're doing here isn'tit is saying what are the conditions that you can create in yourself, in your team, in your organization, in your relationships, where you can respond with more love and less fear and tapping into this infinite source.
(41:29):
of life and to trust in it thatit's really is there, you're not the one who got the short string and you're a bad person.
No, really, truly, there issomething generative there.
And that's what we need to tap into ifwe're going to solve some of these big problems, if you're interested in it.
But even if you're building areally great business, in a really tricky world, this is helpful stuff.
(41:52):
And it's free.
And that's the other thing.
It's free.
Has anybody ever worked that one out?
And maybe somebody's going to come backat me and I hope they do, but certainly.
It is all around you all the time.
It is.
It's like, it is likea big joke, isn't it?
It really is.
Like, and the joke's on us.
(42:12):
yes, yes, yes, yes.
And,
on us.
and then that brings us, theimportance of, you said practices, but reflective practice,
Which is where I wanted to go.
So brilliant.
Yes.
reflective practice.
And I really love that.
I see when I'm speaking to, some of myclients organizations, they definitely are interested in this idea of having more of these, whether it's one on one, but it's definitely groups where it's going to speed up that not only self deepened self awareness, but this systems awareness, like what's really going
(42:48):
on here and to create that restorativeit's a sanctuary, right, where we can just pause for a moment where we can reflect, we can go deeper, we can restore, we can develop our skills as leaders and as leaders who are also coaching and enabling and empowering others.
and having worked a lot with coachesin this space, I can see that the same thing, if you work really intensely with organizations, you can get so much.
(43:16):
It's sucked into that same pace.
So if we're going to have really powerfulcoaching in the world, we also need reflective practice and inflected and embodied practices the kind of somatic is all happening in the body anyway.
It is.
And I think reflective practice,certainly when I was starting my coaching journey, It was one of the hardest things for me to practice.
(43:43):
if there's somebody listening today, andthey're thinking, reflective practice is something I would love to do.
Where do they start?
what's the first step?
Yeah.
and I'd love to understand why itwas so hard for you to do actually.
Would you answer that first?
And then I'll answer.
I, I suppose I wasn't used to it.
(44:04):
I wasn't used to, no, at work I wasreally always good at looking back at the year and placing myself in things and taking responsibility in everything.
However, understanding what I wasfeeling about something or what was really going on underneath, perhaps.
I didn't know how to access that part.
(44:25):
I didn't know that I could sitand write freely and let it out.
now I'm an absolute convert.
everywhere I go, it'ssomething I do with people.
But it, it, I, yeah, I resisted itand perhaps it was just the sitting still piece almost at the beginning.
(44:50):
I just want to speak to that and then I'll
Mm, of course.
the question is alwayswho are we becoming.
Right.
And so one of the reasons I thinkwe resist something like this is we're frightened we're going to see something awful and we can't change it, or we don't want to change it right.
And if we can allow ourselves to go.
This is juicy, because I'm a constantlychanging evolving person human.
(45:16):
And by writing and allowingourselves to observe our own, noticing our own noticing,
we can then see what is actuallydriving me and actually, is that really who I am still?
we're very good at telling stories, butis that still the story that I am living?
or has life evolved into something else?
(45:38):
So we're constantly allowing ourselfto find our edges and then to develop the practice to go more and more in the unknown, to stay with the curiosity.
and to go off of autopilot, I mean,habits are good, but to go off the autopilot and to go to have more courage to take some leaps and risks into venturing into new spaces into that fertile void that I spoke to, right.
(46:04):
Which will always comeback with something.
So you've mentioned writing is a veryeasy way for many people I often just speaking to my phone sometime this morning I was thinking, but writing in a book is helpful when I'm running one groups just having a space held where you present and not necessarily getting advice but getting People coming back at you with a story or what impact that had on them.
(46:36):
and hearing that.
So now you have this bigger mirrorto see yourself and to listen.
Again, a deeper quality of listening todevelop your own self awareness, but also to understand better the impact of your.
actions and whatever you're doing.
(46:57):
the writing is definitely good.
and drawing is a wonderful way.
All of these activitiesand sitting in nature.
So another way is, asimple nature practice.
So go to the same sitting spot everyday and just sit and be with things.
And it's amazing what just,just letting it flow through.
(47:20):
what would you say has been most.
powerful for you.
I would say the writing, Carissa, and
sometimes perhaps in conversation too, ifyou can have a courageous conversation.
To give voice to something that perhapsyou didn't know would come out until somebody asked you a specific question.
(47:48):
Questions, questions are everything.
And, I don't know if it'sJames Clear that says this.
It's about the better question.
it's always about findingthat right question.
And some questions won't provoke thatanswer that really needs to emerge.
But if you keep looking forthose questions, those beautiful questions, they change.
(48:12):
And one of the most powerful thingsthat happened to me, I would say, actually, I was on a podcast interview.
I was interviewing like we're doing now.
And at the end of the call, Theperson said to me, how are you?
And it was, it was the waythis person asked it, suddenly I realised I'm not well.
(48:35):
I'm really not.
And it was a huge catalyst for me,because at the time I was going through menopause, and I was having a terrible time, but I wasn't admitting it to myself.
I was keeping calm and carrying on,So I think often the conversation is very powerful for me.
But the writing is incredible aswell because there's something very freeing about that too.
(48:59):
Yes.
And I just actually want to bringin some cultural differences.
As you're telling your story, I wasthinking, one individual I was working with last year, coaching supervision, and, he's a very, seasoned practitioner.
And every time I work with Japan,the request is, can we have silences?
It's not only because of the translationof words, somehow it's an important cultural, to respect having that space for a natural order of things to emerge.
(49:33):
And,
My space,
yeah,
the space between, I think it'sone of the most beautiful concepts.
the notes on a page, the music,without the space between them, they're meaningless.
exactly, exactly.
Oh, Yo Yo Ma's, absolutely, when hetalks about it in that beautiful, there's a beautiful podcast interview with him and Krista Tippett on being, it was one of the first ones I listened to years and years ago.
(49:57):
Yeah, so exactly that, which takes us backto the, you know, the space in between.
so, just that for some, it might beeasier to cultivate this reflective, the stillness needed to be able to reflect and, and to, to notice your own noticing.
(50:21):
I think that's notice your own noticing.
So when you've written, if youwrite a journal, people write journals and then you put it away.
If you're doing reflectivewriting, you write and then you look back over what you wrote.
What are you noticing?
So when I do like, a culture developmentprogram or leadership development program, the old days they used to just send a survey, you know, let's tick some boxes.
(50:44):
Now I really craft questions.
You get the responses and thensend questions out again to get people to look at what was the state of mind, the habit of mind in which you answered that question.
You're right.
So it's this reallydeepening of your awareness.
Who are you being?
(51:05):
what are you paying attention to?
And this is the bit that's really juicy.
totally.
My thing is we reflect,we review and we reveal.
And absolutely, you noticewhat you're noticing.
Carissa, we are out of time.
I usually get us finished right ontime, but we've run over slightly.
But I'd love you to tell peoplehow they can learn more about you, where to connect with you.
(51:32):
Thank you.
First of all, Susan,I've really enjoyed it.
it's wonderful.
So the easiest thing is to go to LinkedIn,Carissa Bub, or to my website, carissabub.
com.
very simple.
or give me a call, you'llfind the numbers everywhere.
So that's fine.
But I really appreciate it.
And it's, I'm doing a, webinarin a couple of months, which I'm really looking forward to.
(51:54):
challenging myself.
It's 90 minutes in silence,playing with silence.
I, I'm, busy constructing it.
It's just a sort of playful thing,but I've dreamt about it for a while.
So who knows?
It might be a complete mess or itmight be something, whatever it is, it'll reveal some fascinating facts.
(52:16):
Well, and on that silence piece, I'vegone to a couple of, there's the London Writers Salon, I think they're called.
And I've gone to a couple of theirwriting salons, where they basically set a prompt right at the beginning.
Or a little intro and then it's 55minutes of silence while you work on whatever you want and then back again.
(52:38):
But that's a different silence it'sa silence to focus and concentrate on something you're working on.
Definitely.
Yeah, that's sort of wild writing.
And there's the center of awakeningas well and you can dial in on a Monday and sit in silence for 30 minutes with a group.
absolutely.
Or if you want to go, go for aVipassana retreat for 10 days, which is another conversation.
(53:02):
But here I'm really talkingabout it in the sense of almost like these atomic habits.
How do you start to pay attention more?
So you develop your systemsawareness so you can think more strategically, think more strategically.
Bigger, the relational thinking.
Can you see theconnections between things?
the quality of our lives is so muchdriven by the quality of our connections.
(53:24):
Can we really join the dots?
Generally, we're used to practicingfollowing a process or we're used to a certain structure.
Can we see The connectednessbetween the teams in this group.
Can we see the interconnectednessbetween our business and our strategic partners and the supply chain, the bigger piece, right?
(53:47):
We're needing to see more and moreof the connections that allows you to hold more and more of the complexity.
And that's what this is really about.
And by practicing, thisreflective practice, this tapping into stillness and silence.
we can start to begin to senseinto and see more of what is there.
(54:09):
on that note, I will say thank you somuch for being such a fascinating guest and for all your insights today, Carissa.
Thank you.
Thank you so much and,all the best for 2025.
And to you.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(54:30):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(54:51):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am absolutelydelighted to welcome Carissa Bub to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Carissa, you're so welcome.
Oh, I am so delighted to be here, Susan.
Thank you so, so much for inviting me.
And, to be met by such a bigsmile and a warm half of a human being is really great.
So thank you.
You're welcome.
(01:35):
I'm particularly looking forwardto this because we're going to talk about something that I'm not sure people really want to talk about.
So it might be interestingto shine a light on silence.
we've had some back and forth prior tothis conversation, but something you said is how we're going to leap into this conversation, if that's okay with you, because you made a reference to the first episode of 2025, my solo episode and a powerful scene from the movie Conclave.
(02:10):
And.
And you said it was like areally good demonstration of how uncertainty and silence interweave in leadership moments that matter.
So what is it about silence, Carissa?
(02:31):
In the movie there's this moment where
the person who's running this bigevent is effectively leading this incredibly important process on behalf of the Vatican, and, the church.
(02:52):
he's doubting himself.
he's lost.
He doesn't know which way to turn.
there's also the reference topotentially a shadow, a part of himself that he doesn't even realize that he too wants to be Pope.
He's not just facilitating it,but he too may have a part of himself that is hidden to him.
(03:14):
And he's challenged by one of hiscolleagues, and he sits at the edge of his bed, and he goes into prayer, which is what his practice for tapping into the fertile void, which silence offers you.
And the truth is, I've always thoughtthat life is not a problem to be solved, it's a mystery to be unfolded.
(03:41):
And so, in this moment, he's going deepto the source to listen, deeply listen to his inner self, which is a self that is connected to a much bigger energy field.
And to really sense into his,not only his moral compass, but to really listen, deeply listen to what is being asked of him.
(04:06):
What is he being called to do?
What is the possibility ofthis present moment now?
And who does he need to be to meet it?
And leadership is about that all the time.
if I think about my clients, that'swhat they're having to do all the time.
And the world is throwing moreand more uncertainty at us.
There is a faster andfaster pace as we know.
(04:28):
We're on the edge ofmultiple tipping points.
We're moving into a worldbeyond our understanding.
And, I speak about this because 10 yearsago, I was somebody who was working with those same leaders who I am now and asking myself with that same doubt, am I actually big enough to be a conduit for change, to be a container, to hold the space
(04:54):
for these CEOs, these founders, thesemission driven leaders who are responsible for big systemic and systems change, to actually hold that space, the amount of complexity, the amount of complexity.
And I felt no, you know, no.
And so I did a radical act,which was to go and take myself.
(05:17):
offline, which takes some courage, andfind somebody to really, kick me around a bit in the nicest possible loving sense,
to really understand, really listenmore deeply to what is it that's wanting to emerge with me and how do you expand your presence and be that authentic presence that allows those very courageous conversations to happen.
(05:43):
So I've said a lot, I'll stop there for aminute and let you ask another question.
No, thank you, Carissa.
And I mean, there was a lot in that.
I liked the term you used, fertile void.
And I'm getting the image of a wellspring.
(06:05):
So it's almost like when youfind that place of settling in silence, that the flow will begin.
Yet, I think silence issomething we're afraid of.
We don't want to be in silence.
we want the distraction.
(06:27):
So how do you invitepeople into that world?
So first I want to answer or speakto this idea that silence can be frightening, it can be scary.
And I want to acknowledge that somepeople may use silence as a sort of psychological weapon, if you want.
(06:52):
I'm not talking about that here.
I'm talking about that we can allfeel the awkwardness of silence.
And one of the reasons it's soawkward is usually we're holding our
So one of the ways to invite peopleinto silence is to get them into breath.
It's to go into the body.
(07:14):
we all know the rise of somatic coachingand body leadership, but it is to allow yourself to really experience silence as a, an inner resource, something that already sits within you and to stillness, to really stop.
(07:35):
The easiest thing is to focus on breath.
And to ground yourself by puttingand relaxing your feet on the floor.
It is that simple to actually allowthe space within, the breath within, and just to be with the experience, whatever it is, the content actually doesn't matter as much.
(07:55):
What matters is they'reallowing the fullness of the experience without judgment.
And then you get to a presence, you getto a sort of authentic presence, and you're able to handle it and hold it.
Breathe into it, breathe throughit, into what wants to emerge next.
(08:19):
And this, I think, is the key.
plans are great.
We're working with moreand more emergent change.
And that's what leaders needto do today, is work at how do you work with what is there.
It's not that the silence starts whenyou tap into it, it's always there.
It's how do we tap into it and useit, listen, listen more deeply to ourselves and to others, and to the, um,
(08:46):
everything's energy, the biggersource that is available.
To bring some insight into whateverwe're facing in the moment.
And we live in an active world, aworld where doing, doing, doing, doing, forging ahead, all of these kinds of terms that we have are like religion you could almost say back to conclave.
(09:16):
So when you introduce this conceptto a leader who is used to going, going, going, doing, doing, doing,
it's their resistance.
Or do people know?
(09:36):
First, you need to showup in that space yourself.
So we are our practices andwe are our patterns, right?
So we are our practices.
And this is why I did what I did.
Because when you can show up with thatstillness and that calmness yourself, I'm also a coaching supervisor and a lot of my, the feedback I get is you kind of walk the talk when it comes to that, cultivating that stillness.
(10:05):
Other leaders will say you're so calm,
bring the breath with you, bring thespaciousness with you, and it kind of is infectious, it creates a different vibrational field in the room, so unconsciously you see the ease, the flowing, and so when I might suggest it, and of course we're not going to go into a 20 minute mindfulness practice or something, it's something as simple as Just notice your feet.
(10:38):
And you would be amazed how oftenpeople have said to me, that was really useful when you told me to just put my feet on the floor.
Very simple, right?
and I don't want to give atheory or an explanation often.
It's an experience and when somebodysuddenly experiences the easing and the presence and they can suddenly connect with their observer, right?
(11:03):
The observer self that can see themselves.
And then they realize, actually, ifI keep practicing this, the space grows a little bit bigger and wider.
And suddenly I not only have awareness,I have some choice in this moment, how to respond, not just react from fear.
They can feel the anxiety.
(11:24):
They understand what releases the anxiety.
And then they understand, ah,yeah, actually, I can do this.
There's a beautifulsimplicity to it, isn't there?
it's something like you said thatearlier, that it's already there.
It's, it's a resource to be tapped into.
(11:46):
And I think for many of us.
I'm generalizing, but, it's notthe first thing that comes to mind.
And often it's like, we need tofocus more rather than just stop.
Yeah.
Another way is if you're, especiallywith a team, you can just say, let's just pause for a minute and write.
(12:06):
So reflective writing.
Again, it creates the same sortof energetic shift and you can hear, you can hear the silence emerging in the room, right?
You can hear the sound of silence.
There's a peace that comes with,a harmony that comes from it.
It offers an opportunity for more sharing,more cooperation, less competition.
(12:28):
So it's very generative, so that'sanother way that it works, definitely.
Or if you're running a retreat andyou've got, you know, everybody's sitting in a circle and there's this sudden moment where everybody just goes incredibly quiet.
either there's something deeper that'sbeing processed, something that not, that's not been said yet, and that takes some courage to say, or there's just this moment of deep connection and we're just savoring the moment.
(12:59):
what that then generates veryquickly is a sense of awe and wonderment, and a delight.
You see a sort of delight crossingpeople's faces, like they've suddenly remembered something that they'd lost touch with.
So for everyone listening, I think,listen back to some of that if you're curious about the power of silence.
(13:26):
there was a LinkedIn postyou wrote, Carissa, that got me to ask you to come on.
you talked about silenceoperating in stereo.
So maybe you could say more about that.
Well, I'll link that to my ownpersonal experience, during COVID, unfortunately, it affected my left ear.
(13:52):
So the hearing in my leftear is pretty much gone.
And, last year was a prettypainful process of lots of steroid injections to get rid of it.
But one of the things that I didwas go away for three days to walk in silence across Dartmoor, the small group of people.
And that was the first time thatI've been, out in nature, where, I suddenly heard dead silence, which comes from deafness in that left ear, versus the profound silence, which is tapped into listening to a much bigger energetic feel, like the sound of silence that, my favorite, one of my favorite songs ever of Simon
(14:38):
too.
You know, absolutely.
Just this incredible connectionto the kind of numinous or the infinite or just the everything.
We talk about interconnectedness now.
People get it, right?
There's just this, source of energy.
And in the silence and I've alwaysthought it carries in the wind.
(14:59):
I love listening to thewind to take me there.
But when I walked across the desert forthree weeks, I was mostly in silence.
And I really heard that stereo silence.
So it is something which transcends time.
Suddenly you are no longer inlinear time, in Kronos time.
You are in Kairos time, asthey call it, deep time.
(15:23):
And today, as I said, we're inthis edge of these multiple tipping points and we're all sort of asking ourselves, what do I need to do?
Who do I need to be?
Many people are,
often what comes up, even if you knowthe answer, do you have the courage?
And there's something about tapping intothat silence and stereo moment where you feel like all of what came before and all of life force has suddenly got your back.
(15:57):
And it's just this.
Unbelievably explosive momentI don't do enough mindfulness meditation or deep meditation to say I've lost my sense of self.
In that moment, you can honestlysay that you are interconnected with a force of energy, which is just like feeling like superhuman and the ego is completely quiet.
(16:20):
Because something much,much bigger has emerged.
And that's just huge.
We talk about unlocking humanpotential in organizations.
Well, imagine if, thisbecame more of a practice.
What's possible?
Yeah, absolutely.
And perhaps a very simple glimpse ofthat is because he talked about awe and wonderment when you stop to look at a sunset or a sunrise for a moment you're not really there you're almost part of it and everything stops In this glorious
(17:04):
scene that's unfolding in front of youand that creates that moment of stillness and silence, I think, if people are curious what this might be like, that's, what I'm taking from what you're saying.
Yes.
James Clear has written this book,Atomic Habits, and it seems to be, you know, crashing through the bestseller list, if you've listened to him or read it before, it is a great book.
(17:30):
And, Really what we're talking abouthere is creating those, micro moments to tap into something, an energetic presence of which you are part.
And it's that we forgetthat we're part of it.
We do.
(17:51):
Because we're just tied into whatwe're doing and what's next and yeah, and, and the mind takes over.
The mind is very happy tobe active all the time.
so
this can be transformative for leaders,on a number of levels, I think, and it would be great to hear how,
(18:20):
So how do you do it?
So we've talked a lot about individuals,I'm a former broadcast journalist.
I've done a lot of work to help.
Working with leaders who want to elevatetheir impact and strategic influence and to really maximize their legacy, right?
So whether that is the business thatthey're building, whether that's in their tenure and the role that they're in to really deliver on the vision that they've set out, whether it's about changing policy that's going to improve and better the world and people's lives.
(18:51):
that.
element of communication ever goes away.
Can you really deeply authenticallyconnect through your presence, through your words, and people can feel when it's fake and it's not, we know, right?
Can I trust this person?
So for many, many years, the way I've usedit is to really what I The power of the pause, which anybody who's helps anybody with speaking and you do it beautifully.
(19:20):
I've listened to a number of yourpodcasts, but there is nothing as powerful as just taking pause.
why don't people pause very often?
there could be a belief that,you know, people will think I'm stupid and I've forgotten my words.
It could be something like thatkind of assumption, or it's just a habit that nobody's noticing.
(19:42):
So I've used it for many,many years in that context.
But when I'm working with teamsnow, I deliberately create moments.
the Brahmin Kumaris, I don't know ifanybody's heard of them, the BKs as they're called, tend to be women run in from India and really they're about peace, but they have this very neat little activity called just a minute.
(20:04):
And once an hour, if you go anywherewhere they are, there's a bell that goes for a minute of silence.
So there's just a minute.
It doesn't take a long time.
we know three deep breathswill change your state.
So I will bring that in.
I'll encourage reflective writing.
There is always a go inward before gooutward in some sort of a check in.
(20:28):
And really to encourageteams to make it a norm.
And then again, in the organizationalspace, how do you, how do you create spaces for this to happen?
That's more tricky in today'sworld, in a hybrid world.
And
there are many, many, well, I can't saythere are many, many ways of doing it, but if I think about where it's worked well is where there's a founder or the team.
(20:55):
Senior leader is modeling,contemplation, reflection,
where I'll build that.
I think the reflective writing isa very powerful way when you're doing, and reflective practices.
So if we're designing a program runningwhat I call leadership reflection circles, but they're really peer groups to encourage and deepen that awareness.
(21:23):
And there's very often cultivatingstillness as you have to do as a coach.
So many leaders today, not only havingto Coach individuals, but coach teams and to be that facilitator to, to show up with that presence, they need to practice more that cultivating stillness.
So there's many opportunities tobring it in and through stillness you tap into the silence.
(21:51):
that relational peaceor that Group silence.
That's quite powerful.
To get into a space where everybody'sokay, settled into just being still or being silent or feeling perhaps that whatever is hoping to emerge.
(22:21):
I think it also, doessomething for the brainwaves.
it allows this collectiveintelligence to emerge that may not come through otherwise.
Yeah, I think what we, we do probablyneed to balance, and I was going to ask you some questions of how you use this, but I think we need to balance it.
There's a lot of conversation, andcertainly I'm known as somebody who's usually around because there's a conversation going on.
(22:47):
So it's not about sitting in aroom forever and ever and ever.
However, there are times.
If you're sitting in a room witha team where you know it's about allowing people the opportunity where there's now enough safety, but now we need to tap into courage.
Somebody needs to dare to care, right?
Dare to care.
(23:08):
To speak their truth.
And there, the most useful thing canbe to sit with this loving presence.
Yeah, that's, you know, that ifyou've really been in the presence of somebody brings that loving presence, they don't have to say anything.
It's such a deep and rich experience.
(23:29):
So if everybody is holding that intention,then the truth can be acknowledged.
And once the truth can be acknowledged,once the system can reveal itself, whether it's a team or a team of teams sitting in a room, once we really acknowledge what needs to be said we can breathe through it, going back to that point of just, without judgment, just be with it, we can, we now have some choices.
(23:56):
The fear is what has us hold our breathand what makes the silence awkward.
If we learn to embody it, we can movebeyond it courageously into action.
beautiful.
And yes, of course, I neverthought for a moment you were sitting around only never speaking.
(24:18):
it's simply that.
It's, it's not common practice perhaps.
and that's, what's alsointeresting about it.
And you, you asked me or youjust said, how do I use it?
And one of the things I do with coachingclients simply is introducing that minute.
of silence.
(24:38):
That suddenly when people reconnect withwho they are somehow and get that glimpse, that space, it starts to shift everything.
And it's so powerful and so simplethat you almost don't want to tell people as part of the practice because they can do it for themselves.
But no, think there's also theaccountability piece that actually when I'm starting something new and I'm about what might happen.
(25:08):
I still have to answer to somebodyand talk about what it's bringing me.
And of course in stillness speaksSo in speaking about what comes through that stillness, people see it, the benefit for themselves,
but the courageous conversation, Carissa.
(25:35):
I think that's such a powerfulway of thinking about it because
There's so much talk in our organizationsand often the emphasis of where we go is misguided or misaligned or misdirected.
And actually that courageousness ofbeing able to say, hold on a minute, what's really happening here and allowing what usually goes unsaid.
(26:08):
to come through.
And I'm, I'm not getting to aquestion here, but yeah, go on.
I was going to say, it's also notonly what's not been said, but what else is here that we've not seen?
Okay, what else is here that's not seen?
(26:29):
So very often what is going on onone level or what's going on in one conversation or one relationship is going on somewhere else, right?
We call it in coaching speak,parallel process, right?
So, what's going on within theleadership team or the board is happening deeper down in the organization.
and that has an impact.
(26:51):
And so, if we can see that if we canactually see, That this constantly changing, living dynamic system that is called an organization or a team or a person or a relationship is, it's constantly changing and moving.
So how the hell do wethink we can see it all?
We can't, we're making educated guesses.
(27:13):
We're trying to do our best, butallowing for that extra little bit of space to see what else haven't we seen.
and sensing into it, just from adeeper, a different intelligence, a physical intelligence, you know, am I at ease in my body or am I actually still very anxious and tense?
(27:36):
can I drop it?
What is my emotion?
What is my mood?
What is the mood in the room?
What we'd call the emotional feel,So being energetics, All of that requires a level of, if you're really going to do it without judgment and just download what you already think is happening, you need to tap into that stillness or that non judgment space that comes out of, being still.
(28:01):
And quiet.
like everything then, I think,
you're reminding me I waswith my, sister, Nisa.
and nephew at the weekend and mynephew is 12 and he was talking about going on a skiing trip from school which is really exciting but he didn't want to be on the beginner's slope
(28:27):
Okay,
he wanted to go straight into theskiing like without even holding on to anything probably and we often want the result of something or we want to be able to do it without the practice And
(28:48):
what's a reminder for people perhapsof the importance of practice?
I would ask you that very same question.
it's everything.
As I said about 10 years ago, Irealized I was running around so fast that, I'm just kind of mimicking.
(29:12):
What's going on in the world?
How can I possibly then have morespace or be a conduit, right?
A vessel, a container for changefor people to become aware of what's there and what they want to change and actually then to hold that process.
and it meant taking time todevelop some new practices.
(29:35):
It meant really having to startfrom saying, I'm going to get lost.
And loss being a very creative act.
So I can unlearn.
and replace my current habitswith more helpful practices.
So first notice my patterns andthen find the right teachers.
(29:57):
and breathwork we knowis so popular today.
Breathwork is clearly one of themost powerful, impactful ways.
I've tried all sorts of things, you know,I've tried psychedelics and other things, but those are nice little experiences you still need to find effectively.
your daily discipline and life offersyou that opportunity all the time.
(30:17):
So
yes, I now have a morning practice,and there was a moment when I realized I put myself before anything else in the day and that was quite a big thing.
And then to become consistent with it.
and can you do the samein the evening, maybe?
It doesn't have to be a long time.
(30:38):
People have a perception it's goingto be a lot of time, but there's something about that practice.
Again, coming to a call, it's very easy togo on and off, a Teams call, a Zoom call.
Are you cultivating that moment ofspaciousness to be there to meet another with a level of curiosity and empathy?
(31:01):
your presence, that is a gift.
so I don't know.
What are your practices?
I have many and I really dothink we are our practices.
I, you know, I believe it and Inow try really and walk that talk.
And one practice is to trust in life andit's very hard to do, but that's where this stillness and silence bit comes up because when you do that, you find that there is this incredibly supportive,
(31:30):
I don't know what you want to call it,energy, space, field, you use your word, consciousness, that is there for you.
Absolutely a holding almost at timesand, well, I suppose the practice.
We're never going to be able to do thingsand get results without the practice and I think practice is constant.
(31:56):
I mean, that's what I feel anyway.
And I have all different types ofpractices, but what you're reminding me there of was, I was on the, the plane the other day my, sister lives in Prague and I got on the flight and the flight was on time and all of that.
It was really relaxed and I had a spareseat beside me and this person, there was a bit of a kerfuffle behind me, I could hear kind of somebody being a bit like, you know, and eventually this person comes and stands in front of me.
(32:26):
So they'd obviously gone too far,couldn't find their seat and then realized they were in the middle seat and they were like, Really kind of, you know, that's my seat there.
I don't like to sit in the middle.
I'm not looking forward to thisflight and I haven't had a cigarette.
And you can see everyone aroundjust kind of like gasping, kind of, oh God, you know.
(32:49):
And I stood up and in that moment,collected myself and I looked at this guy and I said, but you get to sit beside me.
And how did he respond?
Yes,
changed, like everything.
You know that beautiful moment whereyou see how a mind kind of goes, what?
(33:11):
That doesn't make any sense.
And then the laughter follows.
And we spoke for the whole journey.
Our flight was delayed over an hour.
We didn't stop talking untilwe got off the other side.
And I think when you allow stuffto come out and that space, just that moment, because I could have easily gone, Oh my God.
(33:32):
God, how am I going to haveto sit beside this guy?
And then I would be upset andthe tension would be in the air.
But everybody had a goodgiggle around us as well.
yes, exactly.
And I love that.
as you say, you've actuallyfound the gift, right?
In that moment, there was an opportunityfor you to bring humor and to Absolutely shift the dynamic and that
(33:59):
Diffuse the tension.
refuse attention.
and it took, you responded,you didn't react right.
It took a consciousness.
It took an an awakened brain,an awakened heart mind.
Even not head mind to come withthat playfulness, that courage, that authenticity and wonderful.
(34:23):
Yeah, and save the day, save the day.
So that's fabulous.
And I think that's what we are on.
We can tap into much,much more than we do.
It all becomes very, very serious.
And maybe we sound very, very serious.
I am quite playful.
And so I just have to say something.
Silence has been a fascination of minesince I was a little kid because I saw Marcel Marceau when I was a kid, the French mime artist, and I just couldn't believe how somebody could recreate life in such an authentic way that with nothing there, you know, there was everything.
(35:02):
And I said, I see life more as a mysteryto be unfolded rather than a problem to be solved and, and that magic, and that, delight that I felt and I sort of believe that it's possible to unlock that in the, in the client organizations that I work with every day, however serious things are, and they are, and however important.
(35:26):
And, I'm not talking about, ofcourse, these are very often I'm working with for profit businesses and there's a serious level of performance that needs to be achieved.
However, these moments are whatmake it gorgeous, what make it worth it, make life meaningful.
And that's another thing is that silenceallows you to tap into why am I here?
(35:48):
What's important?
What do I really care about?
And when you come and respondfrom that place of what's meaningful, and if you really care about it, you find the courage.
You extend yourself, and we've losttouch of that because we're just going too fast, our brains can't go as fast as we think our body should.
(36:11):
So, Yeah, but the playfulness that isalso accessible, the playful archetype of playfulness, which is where creativity comes and inspiration comes.
Yeah.
That is everything needed today too, whenyou want teams to innovate and you want people to really do things differently.
So all of this comes out of.
(36:34):
A different tempo, a different rhythm,and it requires a trust, a level of trust that there is something, a much deeper wisdom than we are aware of in the room to tap into.
And
I mean, I get it.
And one of the practices I have atthe moment is trusting life more.
(36:58):
And like you said there earlier,that's really difficult.
But I think there's somethingabout the playful side of that too.
And when you wrote to me, yousaid, it's like giving our imagination permission to dance.
And that conjures upsuch an amazing image.
like life is serious.
Absolutely.
(37:19):
Things are serious, but we don'thave to take ourselves so seriously.
And one of the discoveries I made wasI was very serious about my business.
But when I'm with clients andeverything, it's, it's great, you know?
But when I was like focused onmy business, it was hard work and, and, and it doesn't help.
(37:40):
And so there is power in the playfulness.
Massively.
Power in the plague washugely, laughter again.
When we laugh, we breathe.
When we breathe, we getoxygens to our heads.
I mean.
It is science.
and it's not, anythingmore complicated than that.
I've always felt that, for me,it's been really important to kind of get to know the controls, you know, not rather than the video controls or the television controls.
(38:08):
I wanted to understand my own controls.
Like, how do I work exactly?
and again, this is a curious thing.
And to notice from, I was, when I was achild, I lived in many different countries and people spoke different languages so that in that curiosity, what's really going on in the room beyond the words, so hence my excitement about mime and I think probably what naturally drew me to, communication style work, because.
(38:38):
It is a lot about, the connection that theconversation, whether it's verbal or not, that goes on between people and reading that, and being able to quickly get to the essence of things because you're actually listening beyond the words.
And as we know, as coaches, forexample, don't listen to the content, don't listen to the story.
You're listening to what's underneath and.
(39:02):
This is just going another level deeper.
So it takes, it takes it outof the personal altogether.
And there's insights out there,the collective consciousness, the whole idea of genius, right?
That there is the zeitgeist, there is,there's something out there floating out there in the quantum, if you want, that we can access if we just give ourselves permission to do it.
(39:23):
And it,
lean into it almost as well.
And lean into it and to trust.
I really trust it.
I don't know if you've ever heardBrother David Stendhal Rast.
Have you ever heard David Stendhal Rast?
He's Benedictine monk who, Hemust be in his 97 or something.
I, I adore listening to him.
And like other, I think these area lot of mystics, whether you want to call them religious people or mystics, I see them more as mystics.
(39:50):
but certainly people who havefaith in and trust in life.
And he's very well known for gratefulnessand the gratefulness organization.
And if you listen to him, or you listento an Eckhart Tolle, or you listen to a lot of people in that, they are funny.
They are seriously funny.
(40:10):
They get the joke.
it is a game in a way.
There is a joke, there is play.
So bringing that sortof playfulness to life.
so we kind of get over ourselves.
And again, having a bit of spaceto hear the joke and to see your smallness, and find the courage to be a little bit bigger.
(40:32):
Yeah, this is, I
And it brings a humilitywith it as well, I think.
because when we're protectiveof our ego or of our words, there's a contraction too.
just letting go a little bit of that.
enables us, I suppose, if we're not takingourselves as seriously and protecting ourselves, we can also be the same with others and hold that space for them.
(41:00):
ultimately I think I do what I dobecause I want to create a world where there's more love and less fear.
And so really what we're doing here isn'tit is saying what are the conditions that you can create in yourself, in your team, in your organization, in your relationships, where you can respond with more love and less fear and tapping into this infinite source.
(41:29):
of life and to trust in it thatit's really is there, you're not the one who got the short string and you're a bad person.
No, really, truly, there issomething generative there.
And that's what we need to tap into ifwe're going to solve some of these big problems, if you're interested in it.
But even if you're building areally great business, in a really tricky world, this is helpful stuff.
(41:52):
And it's free.
And that's the other thing.
It's free.
Has anybody ever worked that one out?
And maybe somebody's going to come backat me and I hope they do, but certainly.
It is all around you all the time.
It is.
It's like, it is likea big joke, isn't it?
It really is.
Like, and the joke's on us.
(42:12):
yes, yes, yes, yes.
And,
on us.
and then that brings us, theimportance of, you said practices, but reflective practice,
Which is where I wanted to go.
So brilliant.
Yes.
reflective practice.
And I really love that.
I see when I'm speaking to, some of myclients organizations, they definitely are interested in this idea of having more of these, whether it's one on one, but it's definitely groups where it's going to speed up that not only self deepened self awareness, but this systems awareness, like what's really going
(42:48):
on here and to create that restorativeit's a sanctuary, right, where we can just pause for a moment where we can reflect, we can go deeper, we can restore, we can develop our skills as leaders and as leaders who are also coaching and enabling and empowering others.
and having worked a lot with coachesin this space, I can see that the same thing, if you work really intensely with organizations, you can get so much.
(43:16):
It's sucked into that same pace.
So if we're going to have really powerfulcoaching in the world, we also need reflective practice and inflected and embodied practices the kind of somatic is all happening in the body anyway.
It is.
And I think reflective practice,certainly when I was starting my coaching journey, It was one of the hardest things for me to practice.
(43:43):
if there's somebody listening today, andthey're thinking, reflective practice is something I would love to do.
Where do they start?
what's the first step?
Yeah.
and I'd love to understand why itwas so hard for you to do actually.
Would you answer that first?
And then I'll answer.
I, I suppose I wasn't used to it.
(44:04):
I wasn't used to, no, at work I wasreally always good at looking back at the year and placing myself in things and taking responsibility in everything.
However, understanding what I wasfeeling about something or what was really going on underneath, perhaps.
I didn't know how to access that part.
(44:25):
I didn't know that I could sitand write freely and let it out.
now I'm an absolute convert.
everywhere I go, it'ssomething I do with people.
But it, it, I, yeah, I resisted itand perhaps it was just the sitting still piece almost at the beginning.
(44:50):
I just want to speak to that and then I'll
Mm, of course.
the question is alwayswho are we becoming.
Right.
And so one of the reasons I thinkwe resist something like this is we're frightened we're going to see something awful and we can't change it, or we don't want to change it right.
And if we can allow ourselves to go.
This is juicy, because I'm a constantlychanging evolving person human.
(45:16):
And by writing and allowingourselves to observe our own, noticing our own noticing,
we can then see what is actuallydriving me and actually, is that really who I am still?
we're very good at telling stories, butis that still the story that I am living?
or has life evolved into something else?
(45:38):
So we're constantly allowing ourselfto find our edges and then to develop the practice to go more and more in the unknown, to stay with the curiosity.
and to go off of autopilot, I mean,habits are good, but to go off the autopilot and to go to have more courage to take some leaps and risks into venturing into new spaces into that fertile void that I spoke to, right.
(46:04):
Which will always comeback with something.
So you've mentioned writing is a veryeasy way for many people I often just speaking to my phone sometime this morning I was thinking, but writing in a book is helpful when I'm running one groups just having a space held where you present and not necessarily getting advice but getting People coming back at you with a story or what impact that had on them.
(46:36):
and hearing that.
So now you have this bigger mirrorto see yourself and to listen.
Again, a deeper quality of listening todevelop your own self awareness, but also to understand better the impact of your.
actions and whatever you're doing.
(46:57):
the writing is definitely good.
and drawing is a wonderful way.
All of these activitiesand sitting in nature.
So another way is, asimple nature practice.
So go to the same sitting spot everyday and just sit and be with things.
And it's amazing what just,just letting it flow through.
(47:20):
what would you say has been most.
powerful for you.
I would say the writing, Carissa, and
sometimes perhaps in conversation too, ifyou can have a courageous conversation.
To give voice to something that perhapsyou didn't know would come out until somebody asked you a specific question.
(47:48):
Questions, questions are everything.
And, I don't know if it'sJames Clear that says this.
It's about the better question.
it's always about findingthat right question.
And some questions won't provoke thatanswer that really needs to emerge.
But if you keep looking forthose questions, those beautiful questions, they change.
(48:12):
And one of the most powerful thingsthat happened to me, I would say, actually, I was on a podcast interview.
I was interviewing like we're doing now.
And at the end of the call, Theperson said to me, how are you?
And it was, it was the waythis person asked it, suddenly I realised I'm not well.
(48:35):
I'm really not.
And it was a huge catalyst for me,because at the time I was going through menopause, and I was having a terrible time, but I wasn't admitting it to myself.
I was keeping calm and carrying on,So I think often the conversation is very powerful for me.
But the writing is incredible aswell because there's something very freeing about that too.
(48:59):
Yes.
And I just actually want to bringin some cultural differences.
As you're telling your story, I wasthinking, one individual I was working with last year, coaching supervision, and, he's a very, seasoned practitioner.
And every time I work with Japan,the request is, can we have silences?
It's not only because of the translationof words, somehow it's an important cultural, to respect having that space for a natural order of things to emerge.
(49:33):
And,
My space,
yeah,
the space between, I think it'sone of the most beautiful concepts.
the notes on a page, the music,without the space between them, they're meaningless.
exactly, exactly.
Oh, Yo Yo Ma's, absolutely, when hetalks about it in that beautiful, there's a beautiful podcast interview with him and Krista Tippett on being, it was one of the first ones I listened to years and years ago.
(49:57):
Yeah, so exactly that, which takes us backto the, you know, the space in between.
so, just that for some, it might beeasier to cultivate this reflective, the stillness needed to be able to reflect and, and to, to notice your own noticing.
(50:21):
I think that's notice your own noticing.
So when you've written, if youwrite a journal, people write journals and then you put it away.
If you're doing reflectivewriting, you write and then you look back over what you wrote.
What are you noticing?
So when I do like, a culture developmentprogram or leadership development program, the old days they used to just send a survey, you know, let's tick some boxes.
(50:44):
Now I really craft questions.
You get the responses and thensend questions out again to get people to look at what was the state of mind, the habit of mind in which you answered that question.
You're right.
So it's this reallydeepening of your awareness.
Who are you being?
(51:05):
what are you paying attention to?
And this is the bit that's really juicy.
totally.
My thing is we reflect,we review and we reveal.
And absolutely, you noticewhat you're noticing.
Carissa, we are out of time.
I usually get us finished right ontime, but we've run over slightly.
But I'd love you to tell peoplehow they can learn more about you, where to connect with you.
(51:32):
Thank you.
First of all, Susan,I've really enjoyed it.
it's wonderful.
So the easiest thing is to go to LinkedIn,Carissa Bub, or to my website, carissabub.
com.
very simple.
or give me a call, you'llfind the numbers everywhere.
So that's fine.
But I really appreciate it.
And it's, I'm doing a, webinarin a couple of months, which I'm really looking forward to.
(51:54):
challenging myself.
It's 90 minutes in silence,playing with silence.
I, I'm, busy constructing it.
It's just a sort of playful thing,but I've dreamt about it for a while.
So who knows?
It might be a complete mess or itmight be something, whatever it is, it'll reveal some fascinating facts.
(52:16):
Well, and on that silence piece, I'vegone to a couple of, there's the London Writers Salon, I think they're called.
And I've gone to a couple of theirwriting salons, where they basically set a prompt right at the beginning.
Or a little intro and then it's 55minutes of silence while you work on whatever you want and then back again.
(52:38):
But that's a different silence it'sa silence to focus and concentrate on something you're working on.
Definitely.
Yeah, that's sort of wild writing.
And there's the center of awakeningas well and you can dial in on a Monday and sit in silence for 30 minutes with a group.
absolutely.
Or if you want to go, go for aVipassana retreat for 10 days, which is another conversation.
(53:02):
But here I'm really talkingabout it in the sense of almost like these atomic habits.
How do you start to pay attention more?
So you develop your systemsawareness so you can think more strategically, think more strategically.
Bigger, the relational thinking.
Can you see theconnections between things?
the quality of our lives is so muchdriven by the quality of our connections.
(53:24):
Can we really join the dots?
Generally, we're used to practicingfollowing a process or we're used to a certain structure.
Can we see The connectednessbetween the teams in this group.
Can we see the interconnectednessbetween our business and our strategic partners and the supply chain, the bigger piece, right?
(53:47):
We're needing to see more and moreof the connections that allows you to hold more and more of the complexity.
And that's what this is really about.
And by practicing, thisreflective practice, this tapping into stillness and silence.
we can start to begin to senseinto and see more of what is there.
(54:09):
on that note, I will say thank you somuch for being such a fascinating guest and for all your insights today, Carissa.
Thank you.
Thank you so much and,all the best for 2025.
And to you.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(54:30):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(54:51):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!