November 23, 2024 • 51 mins
"For everything that we do, if you cared this much - just a couple of centimetres of care - it would make all the difference in the world". Marc Haine
Marc Haine and I discuss how small, intentional acts of care can transform the ordinary into the extraordinary. From building trust to creating a culture of excellence, this episode is packed with insights on why daring to care just a little bit more matters so much. From his journey in hospitality to leading teams in high-pressure environments, Marc illustrates how intentionality and connection can bridge the gap between mediocrity and excellence. He challenges us all to approach every experience — whether a banquet or a brief conversation — with the same care and dedication. Marc shares a story of Orlando Airport staff handing out free ice cream during a heatwave — an example of how thoughtful gestures, even as small as a scoop of ice cream, can leave a lasting impression. If you’ve ever wondered how small changes can lead to big impacts, this episode will inspire you to approach interactions with more intentionality and care, no matter the context.
Marc Haine is a customer experience expert, keynote speaker, consultant, and author of Lights! Camera! Action! With 35 years of experience in hospitality, retail, and other customer-facing industries, Marc has created unique frameworks to help organizations build lasting connections to become THE brand of choice. Marc’s energetic, humorous, and authentic delivery makes him relatable and fun. He empowers business operators with unique tools to create jaw-dropping, show-stopping experiences their customers and employees deserve. Marc’s podcasts, Marc Haine Live and Experience Leadership: The Small Business Podcast, have over 150,000 views world-wide. Marc is the 2023 Community Spirit Award recipient in his local community. He is the co-founder and president of several non-profit organizations, such as: Walk the Talks, East of 60 Productions Society, and sits on the national board of the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers (CAPS). During his free time (if he has any), you can find Marc tossing a mean pizza, or showing off his mad sourdough skills. If you are lucky, you might even see him on a comedy stage near you. Marc lives in the quaint town of Devon, Alberta with his beautiful wife and his menagerie of pets.
Connect with Marc:
https://meetwith.marchaine.com
FB: / masterofexperiences
IN: https:// www.instagram.com/MarcJLHaine
TW: / marchaine2
Resources Mentioned:
Lights! Camera! Action! Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theatre by Marc Haine
Leading Beyond the Numbers by Susan Ni Chriodain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
today I am Delighted to welcome MarcHaine to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Marc, you're so welcome.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here with you.
I'm delighted you acceptedmy return match request.
I had the privilege of being on MarcHaine live not so long ago and I will post a link to that in the show notes.
(01:40):
It was a lot of fun as wellas giving a lot of value.
Thank you for that opportunity, Marc.
and thank you for being sucha brilliant expert on my show.
Hopefully, hopefully Ican return the favor.
You will, you definitely will.
I can feel it.
and I'm so excited about all of thisbecause When I see what you do and read about you and having spent time with you, I'm even more inspired by your approach.
(02:08):
And I absolutely love what you ask peopleto imagine, which is imagine a world in which the majority of us put more love and care In being of service, where people dare to be the exception every day.
(02:28):
Goosebumps, isn't it?
Yeah, like, why isn'tthat the world's motto?
Well, it's interesting because I reallycame up with that because I was trying to figure out what is the difference between mediocrity, and excellence.
my background has been in hospitalityand, culinary arts was a big part of my, my development and so on.
(02:49):
And I, I always kind of thought, youknow, what's the difference between putting out a good meal and a great meal.
And really at the end ofthe day, I tease people.
I say, for everything that we do,if you cared this much, like just a couple of centimeters of care, It would make all the difference in the world.
And, and so that's how that phrasingcame out to dare to be the exception every day by caring just a little bit, just care a little bit more.
(03:13):
Look at a transaction andsay, how can I put more love and care into what I'm doing?
Do we learn not to?
Where does it all go wrong?
I think that we get so carriedaway by our environment.
(03:33):
That we forget what we're here to do.
I used to joke in hospitality,if it wasn't for all the people, this job would be so easy!
but, the bottom line is, is that asservice providers, and you could be an optometrist giving service, you could be a dentist giving service, you could be in a restaurant giving service.
We do the work every singleday, day in, day out.
(03:55):
We have our strengths and our weaknesses.
We have our highs and our lowsand our energy levels and so on.
And we, we react to ourcustomers within those flows.
One of the things I used to do withmy serving staff because we also in hotels did banquets and every time we did a banquet, we had to make absolutely sure we were bang on.
(04:15):
It had to be 100%.
I mean, you could not go to a bridewhose wedding you just messed up and say, Oh, I'm terribly sorry.
That didn't go well.
Can we give you a 25 percentcoupon for the next time?
You just can't, right?
And so I use that kind of focusof putting on that production.
And I would tell my serving staffin the restaurant, see each of these people at these tables.
(04:37):
Each one of them has their own event.
We don't know if this is the first timethat they're meeting, we don't know if this is a repeat, a second date, maybe it's a business meeting, but everybody's here with their own mini event.
And if we can treat it like that,then whenever we walk into the dining room, we can think, I want to make this event great for them.
And so it takes a lot ofintentionality, but where it goes wrong is that we get complacent.
(05:01):
We just get into the same flow overand over again and it's same repetitive stuff and then we stop caring and we stop going into this is my job mode.
Just treat every day like a banquet.
Every customer in front of you,you can make their day or break it.
(05:21):
And it reminds me of a very recent tripto an electronics store here, which is a frustrating event at the best of times.
I went, I did an order on Amazon andI, I purchased Earpods, that was it.
And they were Marced down on the sticker.
(05:44):
So I went up to the cash register And theyhad the original price, not the new price.
So I explained that they wereMarced down I had to take the lady down, show her where.
Bring her back up and she had to getsomebody to change that on the system.
Nine minutes later, I was stillstanding at the register waiting for the person, the manager, whoever to come.
(06:10):
And when he did, he didn't look at me.
He didn't say, I'm sorry,it's taken me this long.
He didn't say one word, except thefeeling I got was I was in the way I was being awkward and difficult.
And I was just thinking about howeasy would it have been to just give me eye contact and say, it's all sorted for you now, or anything, even acknowledge my presence.
(06:34):
And I'm amazed how we don'ttreat people like people.
Well, and again, you said what's wrong.
here's a guy who's in his little bubbleof his day and he's not opening up his awareness and his intentionality.
And so this is, what's scary aboutthis is this is the leader, this is the floor manager or the department manager, and if he acts that way, how can he insist on high quality of service?
(07:02):
from his staff if he doesn't do it.
Taking that a step further, what wouldhave made that magical would have been if he not only acknowledged, Oh, I'm terribly sorry that we mucked up the price.
I'm terribly sorry.
We'll get this fixed for you.
Oh, by the way, we have a pricing codeof conduct because we made the mistake.
We give you an additional 10pounds off or whatever, 10 off.
(07:25):
Being able to kind of interact withpeople like you're putting on a show has been the catalyst of my background now, and this is what I talk on, forever, because it's all about this idea.
I know you said you readthe first bit of my book.
my first chapter is called experienceexpectations, and that's all about understanding what are the touch points in our businesses and how can we look at the touch points and make them extraordinary rather than just the day to day transaction.
(07:52):
I grew up where I was always told, expectnot, and you shall not be disappointed.
Oh, that is so sad.
I don't think it was meant to be that sad.
But I do think it's funny.
our expectations are generally quitelow, perhaps, in a lot of our one on one interactions in a superMarcet or in a train station or in an electronic store, perhaps different when we're sitting having a meal.
(08:24):
or on a plane.
We have different expectations, butI think they're easily met if there's some intentionality, like you're saying.
Yep.
And all we have to do is just care.
Just care like on an airplane.
Just care that people are on a plane.
it's a routine that mostof us don't do very often.
(08:45):
So why can't we make that extraordinary?
I just found a post on Instagramon the Orlando airport.
During the heat wave,
There were people in the airportgiving out free ice cream.
When we think about airports,we're thinking, Oh my goodness, I was just at LAX.
Oh, it's a terrible airport.
Oh, Toronto, PearsonInternational Airport.
(09:05):
Oh my goodness, if I could stay awayfrom Pearson, that would be great.
Right?
We have all these different picturesin our heads about what airports we like to go to and which ones we want to avoid like the plague.
But here you have, Orlando airports,just because it was a heat wave, I don't know what it cost them.
Maybe it's 50 cents per person, butthere was somebody handing out ice cream.
(09:27):
And so now you have a group of people,travelers inside the airport, all of a sudden getting surprised by this little token that is so minuscule and yet made such a big impact.
It's so true, isn't it?
And what you were saying about avoidingplaces like the plague, it's not the place, it's the experience that we had.
(09:51):
And it's the people often, unfortunately,that have created that experience.
And we remember As, like, youhave the Maya Angelou quote in your book, and so do I.
We remember how people make us feel.
Yes.
Absolutely.
100 percent of the time.
100 percent of the time.
And you might not evenremember people's names.
(10:11):
You might not even remember thewhole context of the experience.
You just remember when I went to thisone particular thing, I had a great time or when I went here, it was terrible.
And my wife is always calling meback and saying, Oh no, we went to that restaurant 10 years ago.
Do you remember how long we had to wait?
Oh, I don't want to go back.
That was 10 years ago, but that'show ingrained these memories be.
(10:34):
Within our psyche to make surethat we don't hurt like that again.
Do we say anything?
I think it's different depending on theside of the ocean, perhaps, that we're on.
Because certainly here, we're not veryproactive at saying, This service sucks.
(10:54):
And we don't have to be that.
You know, we don't have to attackeither, but, but because we're not used to standing up for ourselves or being a little bit more demanding of something basic, we tend then to have an outburst rather than, and again, then that's messing with everything, isn't
Well, I, I do have a theorybecause I'm Canadian, so we're polite about everything.
(11:17):
And so when somebody says, howis everything we say, it's fine.
And then something magical happens whenwe get into our car and drive home.
I think there is a time distancecorrelation between the time we leave and the time we get home.
Because when we open up our laptop,all of a sudden, we're like, We turn into the incredible Hulk on a keyboard.
(11:40):
Yeah, and he certainly wouldn'tlike you when you're angry.
Not you, but any of
exactly.
Don't make me angry.
it's true though.
a lot of us don't say things and welearned not to say things because the result typically it's not humble response.
It's not insightful responses.
It's usually excuses.
(12:03):
Right, so you say to the store managerof the electronics store and right away it's like, Oh, well, you know, I, I'm really sorry about that.
But you know, Steve has been reallybusy and he's been just fighting off a crisis because something didn't get shipped that was supposed to get shipped for a special order.
And it just, it just cameat a really bad time.
I'm really sorry.
That doesn't do it.
(12:23):
That doesn't do it at all.
it really doesn't, does it?
the excuses are
I think we just want the truth.
I go to this coffee shop everynow and then and I was in there one day and There was a queue.
It wasn't huge.
It's a small, little place.
(12:43):
And the guy served somebody and thenhe looked at me and he said, I've got two more people and then you're next.
I think he was maybe doing takeawaysas well and they weren't their orders.
And then he did his thing.
One more.
And he said, just one now.
And he kept me informed the whole time.
And afterwards, when he was servingme, I just said, look, thanks so much.
(13:05):
That was really helpful.
You managed my expectations.
instead of saying like, Oh,another copy, he just did the whole thing really, really well.
And he said to me, he was young.
He was like in his twenties.
He just said, I feel it's reallyimportant to keep people Informed of where they are and what's going on.
(13:25):
And I'm like, yeah, andI will go back there.
Now he's not there anymore andsometimes the service is a little bit hit and miss, but mostly they're really, really lovely in there.
interestingly though, what wasyour response every time you said, Oh, I just have two more transactions and then I'm all yours.
What was your response to him?
Was it that you were pissed off and mad?
(13:46):
Or did you go, Oh, no problem,
No problem.
And I never appearedannoyed in the first place.
So he, even before I had achance to be annoyed at waiting, he's already letting me know.
You've probably got a three minutewait or whatever it is and it just makes all the difference.
We never mind once we're informed,none of us like being kept in the dark,
(14:08):
and it was just such an easy part of thetransaction is just to put up, make that little memo to your waiting clients.
Hey, I just got twomore and I'm all yours.
Hey, I'm down to one.
I'll be right with you.
Right.
And being able to do that just puts outwhatever fire of angst or frustration might be seething in the, embers.
(14:30):
that you've possibly brought withyou from a different situation altogether, but this coffee guy is going to get it in the neck and,
Yeah.
and isn't it the same in ourworkplaces as colleagues as well, Marc, that we care for one another
The big difference I think is goingfrom transactional to relational.
(14:50):
we have to stop thinking in the wayof, okay, I've got this customer.
I'm going to serve this customer.
Now that's done.
Next.
I have a colleague.
He wants something.
He's standing in my doorway.
Okay.
As soon as I'm done this, Ican get onto my next thing.
that's not the way that weinteract as human beings.
Naturally, nature doesn't work that way.
And so this idea ofgetting into conflicts and.
(15:11):
We really could do another podcast on howto respond to negative online reviews, by the way, because there's a formula in what I teach, that you can use, whether it's with a colleague or whether it's, at the electronics store where, you apologize for how the person is feeling.
I'm sorry we made you feel this way.
I'm sorry, this is, I can understand.
And then you tell them howmuch you understand about it.
(15:32):
And then you have The whole focus.
What is your focus as an operation orwhat is your culture as an operation?
And so even when you're going head tohead against a colleague, being able to say, Oh, I'm so sorry that, Oh, I can, I can absolutely understand how frustrating that is for you.
I didn't fill up thephotocopy with all the pages.
I'm terribly sorry.
I will make it.
Absolute commitment that we willmake sure that the photocopies stay stocked, whatever the issues, right?
(15:56):
and being able to do that andapologize for your role in maybe how they feel, even though you might have not done anything wrong.
It's how they feel.
You can't control how other peopleare going to feel, but because we're in a relationship, we could turn around and say, Susan, I, I'm so sorry that I made you feel that way.
(16:17):
I can see how frustrating that is for you.
We'll make absolutely sure that in thefuture, this will not happen again.
Right.
And if it's a team interaction, youcould turn around and say, I'd really love to get together and figure out how we can keep this from happening again.
a manufacturing operationthat has a janitorial service.
(16:39):
The mop bucket is always dirty.
Okay, well, let's get together andlet's figure out what the process should be to make sure that the mop bucket is never going to be dirty in between shifts or between uses or whatever.
What do we need to do?
What's the process?
And then once you bringeverybody in, again, using it as a relationship building.
And saying, we respect each other.
We respect each other'scomments and each other's ideas.
(17:02):
Let's brainstorm on what wecould do to make this better.
Let's answer any objectionsor any challenges we might see in that brainstorming session.
Let's come up with a way thatwould work for everybody.
and like what you're sayingthere is not rocket science.
In fact, it is simple, it'sbasic, Is that why we overlook it?
(17:29):
It's because, again, we'retransactional, we get into the grind, and we forget to care.
You
you're going to keeptelling me this, aren't you?
I am because because ultimatelythat's what it boils down to.
It's that intentionality.
I mean, we've always seen whenwe felt that somebody cared about what what was happening to us?
It always made us perk up and takenotice like when somebody does an act of kindness You don't forget that but at the same token when somebody does something in civil or cruel You won't forget that either the protagonist will like the aggressor will forget about it like I forget that, you came in and it's like, Oh, my goodness.
(18:12):
Are you wearing that to work?
And you know, you're like, Itook time to pick this out.
it's a seagull moment where they come in.
They poop on everything.
They squawk and fly away.
And they don't even remember.
One of the things that I do in some ofthe trainings, leadership development is, is ask people to think about a leader in their life who had an impact on them, like a positive impact.
(18:43):
And everybody around the tablewill sit and take a few minutes and then all the stories will be a version of the same story.
And the leader might be anyone froma former boss, a parent, a teacher, whatever, but it'll be about how much they cared for them and went out of their way to do something and all of that.
And you can see people go,Oh, so I can be like that.
(19:08):
And you kind of go, well,isn't that what you remember?
Why wouldn't you want tobe remembered like that?
And it's just back to basic humanity,
I had a colleague who is one of the bestinquisitive, curious people I've ever met.
And she always askedreally great questions.
(19:31):
And so instead of takingthings at face value.
She would ask really good questions.
And so it helped do a couple of things.
Number one, it helped, me asthe receiver of that to start thinking about what I was saying.
And so, one of the things I tell peoplewhen, when dealing with difficult people, they say something cruel or incivil.
(19:52):
One of the things is I askedthem to repeat what, I'm sorry, what did you just say?
And then they would repeat it.
And then I would say, why wouldyou say something like that?
And all of a sudden, it's amazingto see how people who are in civil, who have something rude to say, will start to back out, and they'll start to justify why they said it that way.
(20:12):
And it's interesting because youreally steal the power from the incivil person who is there to either dominate a conversation, validate their existence, that they know more than you, they're better than you, whatever.
And that's a them problem,it's not a you problem.
And you get them to start thinkingabout how they're responding.
(20:36):
And so I firmly believethat what gets rewarded.
and recognized gets repeated.
So if you catch somebody with a negativebehavior, you're not necessarily rewarding, you're calling it out.
But that's a good way tokeep it from being repeated without, without judging them.
I'm sorry, what did you say?
(20:57):
Huh?
That's interesting.
Why would you say something like that?
or one of my ones is, tell me more.
Yeah, exactly.
That's, that's really interesting.
Can you tell me more?
it can be easy to disarmpeople or get them to think.
(21:22):
I suppose we live in a world of ourown making, and a lot of the time we're just obsessed with ourselves.
And we forget.
To be civil.
Road rage is a perfect example of that.
Right?
It's like, something happens, somebodycuts you off, and right away it's like, I have to get on the horn, I have to flip them the finger, I have to curse at them.
(21:44):
It's like, but you don't stop tounderstand what their situation is.
I have a perfect example.
I, drove into West Edmonton Mall.
West Edmonton Mall used to be thebiggest mall in the world for ages.
Now it's not.
they were installing newrides in the amusement park.
And so there was all these metal girdersand everything all lined up, and as I drove in, I saw a small red pickup truck back out of the parking spot.
(22:07):
And the way he was going, I could seethat because all these metal girders were lower than his bumper, he probably didn't know he was about to bash into it.
So I honked!
And so he slams on the brake.
He looks at me like with a face offury, gives me the finger and peels out.
And I thought, isn't that because theonly thing I was concerned about was I didn't want him to bash up his truck.
(22:32):
He filled in the blanks and justjumps to this massive assumption.
This guy's an assholeand I'm gonna I'm gonna
absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and you know what?
It probably tainted the nexthalf hour, next hour of his day
Or maybe, yeah,
get right, you get yourself all riled up.
And, we don't stop to understandnow, would I say I'm perfect?
(22:55):
No, I'm not perfect, but I try tounderstand, that maybe, the person who just cut me off, maybe they're in a rush.
And I teased my wife, I said, Oh,obviously where he's going is more important than where I'm going.
Right.
but my wife is like,you should all get them.
And it's like, why?
What will it solve?
What would it solve?
Yeah.
(23:15):
And it's not that you're goingto be a pushover in life and let people walk over you, it's just that we don't really ever know, do we?
the stopping to understand, Iroared with laughter with one of your stories in your book.
And it was about an interviewyou had to be a manager.
(23:37):
Yes.
So maybe you would tell us that story.
Yeah.
So I, I, tried for a job and,the, after I met with HR, the CEO wanted to meet with me.
And so I sat in his officeand he proceeded to interview me, but his interview was more like an onboarding process.
It's like, so Marc, we have a reallygood culture here hard work is really rewarded and, and, we, we honor trust and trustworthiness.
(24:06):
You're trustworthy, aren't you?
And, and it's like, yes, sir, I am.
And then he went on this diatribefor like 15 minutes telling me about everything that they did and everything.
and at the very end ofit, he punctuated it.
And all I had to do wasdo this the whole time.
And, and then he got to the, and so Marc,do you think you'd be a good fit for this?
(24:27):
Absolutely, sir.
And then the interview was over.
if I said 10 words, 15 words, that'sall I said during this whole interview, over a period of like 45 minutes.
Right?
And then I got hired.
And then like a few monthslater, I was talking to the HR manager and she says, Oh, Marc, he was really impressed with you.
(24:52):
I said, really?
Oh yeah.
he was blown away by, by yourvalues and, and, and it's like, isn't that interesting?
It's fascinating because the guy just didnot stop to understand anything about you.
No, no, maybe they weredesperate for somebody.
(25:12):
to work there.
Maybe they were really focusedon, I really need to get the right people in there.
And so it became all about him and itbecame less about me or how I could serve or what my needs were and so on.
And it became transactional.
Oh, you mean I have to interview somebody?
Okay.
Okay.
give me five minutesand then send them in.
(25:33):
Right.
And then it's him putting on hislittle hat of rah, rah, whatever.
Well, I have to tell youthat particular business.
certified to become unionized, andit's certified to become unionized because one of the things that he said was, and this was years ago, this was like 10 years earlier.
And this is how good memory is.
About 10 years earlier, he had saidsomething to, well, if you don't like it, employees like you are a dime a dozen.
(25:59):
Oof.
and so.
When it came time when people startedtalking about kind of their work environment and all this and somebody approached him about certifying in a union, that was the big thing that they kept bringing up time and time and time again, because this is what your C.
O.
O.
thinks about you and it reallyreminds me of like today's political situations, right?
(26:25):
Like, I know that evenin Great Britain, yeah.
It seems like we're devolving intoincivility in our interactions.
I'm seeing it a little bit here in Canada.
But the influence of that is the wholeTrump regime, the Trump methodology of leading is starting to dominate.
It's like because Trump now is doingit, it's almost like he's giving us permission to be incivil to one another.
(26:50):
And, I'm seeing it in the Canadianpolitical system as well, that there's more name calling now than there was.
I did see a snippet in Great Britainin Parliament that people were yelling at each other and treating each other with a level of disrespect.
I, I really hadn't seen, there used tobe decorum and somehow we're losing that.
And I think that's a shame because evenwhen you have the mores of decorum that says this is how we're going to act, even though you might be mad, at least by having the standard that we're just going to act like this and then we'll deal with the rest later means that we don't have to be incivil to people and we don't have to crush them in order to get what we want.
(27:31):
I think that COVID contributed to thatas well because we were all locked up for so long that when we came out again it was almost like we had to be trained in how to interact with people, We had lost some of our basic manners.
Not all of us.
I can see that in people and ithas spread into the political side and it's not just decorum, is it?
(27:58):
It's diplomacy and, we're meantto be able to have disagreements with one another without this either or extreme perspective.
And that's why I love whatyou talk about with improv.
This yes and.
(28:20):
Yeah, for those people who don'tknow anything about improv, theater, improvisation, if you ever watched whose line is it anywhere, that's, that's the improv and the whole big overlying philosophy.
And I think it was Tina Fey who kind offigured this out was this aspect of yes.
And which means you takewhat you're given as a gift.
an idea, a thought, a, proposal.
(28:43):
You, you take it as a gift andinstead of saying, no, but you know, we don't have the budget for it.
You say, yes.
And you don't have to vocally say yes.
And you just look at it andsay, okay, what's my yes.
And going to be to this, I'm accepting it.
And okay.
So I'm going to accept it.
Thank you very much for this proposal.
(29:04):
Have you thought about the budgetaryconstraints because that's the yes.
And yes.
And what are we going to doabout budgetary constraints?
And then they feed that and you takethat as a yes and, and I personally think that every time somebody says no, but it takes the idea and it shuts it down.
And if you ever listen to anybody whowill turn around or they'll say yes, but anytime they use the word, but they are shutting down the idea, right?
(29:34):
So you come, you say, I have this greatproposal and they go, yeah, but you know, and then that negative comes.
We don't have the budget.
we don't have the staff.
it's going to take too much training.
And so it's all the excusesof why we can't do something.
And so my response has always been, areyou saying no because it's impossible?
And they typically will say,well, it's not impossible.
(29:55):
And I said, so if it's notimpossible, what will it take?
And it changes the whole conversation,
It really does.
So accepting that, and, I've workedin different environments where, employees are treated like peons.
I truly believe that.
We surround ourselves with people,like when you hired these people, you hired them because they were the best that you could find.
(30:20):
So why not treat them like that?
Because I believe that everybodycomes to the fold with their own superpower, their own ideas, they have their own experiences.
So why can't we tap into that?
Yes, they're not the director ofoperations, but you know what, if I go to this person and I say, so tell me something about this.
And get their perception maybe you'llget insights that you didn't even know existed because you don't have those same insights or same experiences.
(30:49):
And it's not even maybe, is it?
You are going to at least get something.
And maybe not the first timebecause they might be like shocked
first time it's going to be like,
you're what?
me?
am I going to say something out of turnand then get slammed for it afterwards?
exactly.
But creating the environmentwhere you take everyone's perspective into account, it
(31:16):
It's so important.
I think in the book as well, Italked about this one environment where I was doing a SWOT analysis.
And as part of the exercise in the hotel,I, I talked to all the leaders first, and then I started talking to the employees.
And the owner came back from vacation, andhe says, what's this thing you're doing?
You're doing like aswatting or swatting or?
And so I told them what it was and whatthe intent behind a SWAT analysis is.
(31:38):
And for those who don't know, it'sstrength, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats within a business.
And so I was sitting down with employeesand trying to get their perception of it.
And he looked at me, he goes.
What can a dishwashertell me about my business?
And I said, well, you don'tthink that he's got some insights into what he does every day?
I mean, this guy's standing at a dishpit, washing dishes eight hours a day.
(32:00):
He knows where bottlenecks are happening.
He knows what products areworking and what doesn't work.
He knows the hiccups that he's facingin order to do his job effectively.
I believe.
He looks at me and he goes, the only thinga dishwasher could tell me is what time is his smoke break and when does he get paid?
Yeah.
And I thought, okay, well, I'm donebecause that's that mindset that limits us to forever be micromanagers, forever be the heroes of our own story.
(32:31):
And then you are also that person whowill turn around years from now going, I don't know why nobody takes initiative.
I don't know why I always haveto tell people what to do.
I wonder how the person gotlike that in the first place.
I don't spend too much time, butit's also a bit sad because they've probably had people who've treated them in a certain way that that's how they then turn up themselves.
(32:58):
Or they got let down.
They had an expectationthat was unfulfilled.
And because of that, Idon't know, I can trust you.
so that, that happens.
And again, being able to turn around andsay to yourself, why do I feel this way?
About that.
I walked into a middle manager's meetingand, they had like a middle manager's lounge, and I walked in there with my cup of tea, and then the manager was telling the supervisor, oh, this girl Donna, she's such an idiot.
(33:26):
I don't know why we hired her.
And I had to stop right then and there.
I had to stop the whole thing.
I said, I, I need to interject.
If you are saying that Donna is stupid,how do you expect the middle manager to treat her when he goes out there?
And so somewhere along the way, we mustbe very, very cautious of how we see people because it's easy to pass judgment.
(33:50):
It's easy to say somebody is an idiotbecause they made a mistake or whatever.
But we have to understand thatwhen we communicate this within our management team and people, Oh, it's behind closed doors.
It means nothing, but you can'ttell me that it doesn't affect when people step through that threshold.
But you can't tell me it doesn'ttaint their view of what goes on, especially if it's a domineering manager telling somebody this, it's like, how do I get into his good books so I don't become the one that he's going to chastise behind closed doors.
(34:23):
It's about, it's, but it'sexactly what you talk about.
It's this getting beyond thenumbers and thinking about the relationships that we're building.
It's not about profit andloss in these conditions.
Anything we've talked about todayhas not been about profit and loss.
Well, it has indirectly
Absolutely.
Because.
Yeah, because we know that whentrust is low, I think it was, Stephen Covey's son, Stephen Covey, who said that when trust is low costs go high.
(34:52):
Right?
Time goes high.
It takes longer to do things.
look at 9 11 when we all of a suddenhad to go through security checkouts.
Now it takes much longer toget through security checkouts than it ever did before.
Why?
Because trust is low.
So the cost is high now.
It takes more manpower to process.
It takes more time to process it.
And when you don't trust, you're goingto be putting all sorts of things in.
(35:14):
COVID was a perfect example.
What happened the first month of thelockdowns when people had to work from home, you had all these businesses going out and buying surveillance software for the laptops because I want to see that, make sure everybody's doing their work.
And the surveillance software, becauseit generates tons and tons of data that nobody has time to go through, it's kind of like putting up a surveillance camera.
(35:38):
It's great that it's there, but younever have time to watch the footage.
Unless there's a crime committed
Unless there's a crime.
Unless there's a crime, yeah.
Trust.
You talk about cultures and subculturesas well, Marc, within an organization.
And I've seen a lot of that myself.
And I think it's phenomenal how ina really, really awful organization that you can have teams that are just high performing because they all trust one another and they get along.
(36:14):
And, it's not just the leader, but it'sthe moral leadership within the team as well that helps contribute to that.
And so that is something that I, Idon't think a leader can really control.
If you have a toxic work environmentas a whole, it gets harder and harder to do this, but, but then you end up with these kinds of renegades of, I don't want to let this get to me.
(36:34):
do you agree that maybe ourdepartment that we should just, you know, let's just perform at our highest level and see what happens?
Right.
And then people turn around and the restof the organization, the unfortunate part of it is, and I've worked in a municipal government where this was the case, where the, catalyst was all of a sudden people in other departments were pointing fingers at this high performing team because, Oh, how come they get away with this and they're always meeting and how come they're doing.
(36:59):
and I wonder what kind ofwork they're doing and, and it becomes this whole big kind of
backstabbing kind of.
Like it becomes this toxic thingof they have something special.
So let's poop all over it Why can'tthey just be like us and it's like yeah, but you have high turnover You always have people who are angry at work.
(37:20):
People aren't happy.
They're not smiling.
They're disgruntled
It is grunt old and disengaged
and they don't want to be here.
Yeah,
Well, neither do they.
Neither does that personwho's complaining.
Yeah, I'm just here to do my job.
That's it, right?
And to me, that's poison in an industry.
That's poison in any business.
(37:40):
I'm just here to do my job.
Just I'm here.
I show up, I do my job, I go home.
at the very beginning, we talkedabout this aspect of caring.
How can you care ifthat is not the culture?
If you don't have a leader that caresabout you or a middle manager that cares about you as a frontline worker, how are you going to care about your customers?
You can fake it for a littlewhile, but when crisis hits.
(38:03):
We will always default to what thecorporate culture is all about.
Ask any server who went into the kitchento cry after a customer gave them heck or a boss or a manager gave them heck and they're in the back room crying because of the way that they were treated.
And I can tell you it happened.
(38:23):
Anybody watching this, I'm sure knowssomebody who was in the industry.
Oh, I know that happened to Jane.
oh yeah.
And it happens.
In every industry, I think.
That's the thing.
It
And it doesn't have to,and it doesn't have to.
All we have to do is just care this much.
I know, I know.
(38:44):
And it's like, was it Roosevelt whosaid, nobody cares how much you know.
Until they know how much you care.
Yes.
It's so easy.
It's so easy.
and we're natural caregivers yousee two kids playing together.
Okay.
They might have a little fight,but then there'll be, pretend putting bandages on or whatever.
(39:05):
They'll care for eachother and it's in us.
Let it out.
But I think, again, through ourschooling processes, we get all the shaken out of ourselves.
you know, one of the things I tellpeople is as adults, we stop telling people that our feelings got hurt.
If you think about most of the angst,most of the kind of, conflict that we have, somebody's feelings got hurt and we don't talk about it anymore.
(39:30):
We talk about it in gradeschool, you go home and it's like, Oh, little Stevie hit me.
Well, you tell Stevie,he hurt your feelings.
And so you just made me hurt myfeelings and then he pummels you because you're being such a wuss and, and then you learn to stop saying that.
but the fact of the matter is whenpeople get into conflict, it's because somebody's feelings got hurt.
(39:51):
I feel disrespected.
I feel that they didn't give me due, duecourse or due respect, for something.
It's always falls down tosomebody's feelings got hurt.
And now I need to exert myself to eitherdominate back, hit back, or I need to withdraw and cry in a corner someplace.
And that's why my book is abouthow accounting for emotions tips the balance at work.
(40:16):
Because.
does.
Read the book.
If you haven't read thebook, read the book.
So one more thing aboutyour book before we wrap up,
I should, I should hold it
absolutely, well, I actuallydon't show the video.
So Marc's book
Okay.
Light, Camera, Action.
And, I'll let you tell, I'll let you,let you, I'll invite you to tell us a little bit more about it in a moment.
(40:39):
But the thing, oh, here I go with my butt.
The thing about, Improv.
Well, I, one sentence just jumped offthe page and that sentence from you was innovation is born through improvisation.
Yes.
We've, we've never invented anythingknowing what the outcome is going to be.
(41:02):
We, we have an objective.
To it.
But what it gives us isgives us the curiosity to say what happens if we do right.
without being curious and beingintentionally curious, you can't innovate, you can't look at something and say, How can we fix this?
Unless you're looking at somethinggoing, you know, we've been doing this for like 20 years.
(41:23):
Technology's changed, cultureschanged, generations changed.
Is there anything thatwe should change here?
And by asking that question, allof a sudden magical things come up.
You no longer have people going,well, we do it because that's the way we were trained and that's the way we're, we have to do it this way,
Right?
And so we get innovation.
By saying to people, yes and,tell me more, give me more information, okay, let's explore it.
(41:49):
let's break it down.
Let's break it out.
Let's, let's get to the idea and say,what is it we're trying to achieve?
Somebody might come to you with anidea and you go, let's take the yes and, I really like, okay, I understand.
What is the problem thatwe're trying to solve?
Because sometimes the idea coming toyou might be a band aid to a problem, but now you're in a communication, which is the key to any relationship.
(42:13):
And now you're having that communicationand you're being able to share ideas.
And from there, you come to anunderstanding, you get clarity, and from there you can become more innovative.
I used to work somewhere wherewe were told to be innovative, almost like almost ordered under
Didn't you get the memo?
(42:36):
It was kind of like that.
And it was the worst atmosphereand it shut everything down.
You cannot be curious.
If you're stressed.
Well, and you can't be curious if you'reconstantly being, chastised for it.
The minute somebody turns around andgo, look, it's not your department.
(42:56):
Don't worry about it.
We got to have done thedepartment for that.
Or you know what?
Just focus on what you need to do.
Well, the minute you shut peopledown, they'll stay shut down.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's so simple.
it seems like it, but everybodywatching is nodding their head going.
Oh, yeah.
I remember a time.
(43:17):
I remember that one person.
Well, I'd love to hear those stories.
So if anyone has some great stories forMarc and I, be sure to send them our way.
Yes, please.
Marc, tell us a bit about what you doin the world and your wonderful book.
Thank you.
(43:37):
so lights, camera actionwas actually born.
As I mentioned, I spent manyyears in hospitality and it was one of those industries.
I thought, all the People problemswe had was endemic to hospitality until I worked for municipality doing a service excellence program.
And I got to work with other businessesand realizing, Oh, wait a second.
The problem is humanbeings, not the business.
from there in 2016, I started to act.
(44:00):
And so I had a, I had my colleaguecame and knocked on my door and she says, Marc, you act, right?
And I said, well, sometimesI act silly, sometimes goofy, but most times just immature.
And she goes, no, no, no, no.
Like on a stage.
And it's like, Oh, I'venever thought of it.
She goes, we're doing this playand you'd make a really great for this one particular character.
And it's like, Oh, I'venever acted before.
(44:20):
I've always secretly wanted to,but I'm so afraid that I can't remember what I had for breakfast.
How am I going to remember lines?
But I went ahead and did it.
And I have to tell you.
After three and a half months ofrehearsals, I don't care how funny the play is, nothing is funny anymore.
And at three and a half months goinginto a four month rehearsal and you think, why are we doing this?
The stress, I have to remember allthese lines and this is so, why did I do this to my, this sucks, this is terrible, why are we doing this?
(44:46):
And I have to tell you, opening night,I'm standing behind the door backstage.
Now I have to step onto stage.
This is first time ever acting.
the lights dimmed downin the whole auditorium.
My hand is on the doorknob.
I'm waiting for the music cue to step out.
The music cue comes, the lights goon, and I step out onto the stage.
Can't see anything becauseyou're blinded by all this light.
(45:09):
And I utter my first few words,and then I hear laughter from a room full of 250 to 300 people.
And it sent chills up my, because atthat moment, even though I was in the middle of a scene, at that moment I realized This is why we're doing it.
And it was such a profound moment forme that the next day I came in two hours early from the call time and I walked into the venue and I went to the lighting board and I turned on the stage lights.
(45:33):
And that was the first time I got to seewhat the audience saw, which was all of a sudden this setting that gave a time, a place, almost a situation because it was, a French, kind of resort area.
And I thought that is absolutely magical.
I turned on the lights, I went upon the stage, I sat on the couch and looked at everything that we created.
(45:58):
Coordinating volunteers, coordinatingcaterers, setting up the dinner theater, building up the stage, building out the stage, all had to be done.
The rehearsals, the coordination ofevery aspect of the experience for our customers, for our audience.
And I thought to myself, if businessesput that much time, attention, and focus into their business that we did to put on six shows, We'd have amazing businesses, and that was a catalyst for Lights, Camera, Action.
(46:26):
So I took the whole idea of putting ona live theater play, and I said, what happens if I put business into this lens?
What would happen?
And so what happens is Iwrote this book, 20 chapters.
Most of them are hilarious becausewhen you read them, number one, you've experienced it in some form or fashion yourself, at least I hope so, and, we look at from the business perspective, and it just shows how.
(46:48):
Ridiculous.
Some of our processes are whenwe think about what we do in our business, if you were putting a live show for it's a perfect example in hospitality, it's not unheard of.
That you'll apply for a servingjob and they say, Oh good, you have three years experience serving.
That's really great.
Okay.
Here's the menu.
Here's your apron.
Here's your card for thepoint of sale system.
(47:10):
That's your section over there.
Go would be akin to, Oh, 10 years acting.
Oh wow.
Shakespeare.
Wow.
That's so good.
Wow.
I can't wait to see your show.
Okay.
So here's your costume.
Here's the script.
You go on in 10.
We would never do that.
But yet in businesses, we dothat all the just shadow him, just shadow him for a shift.
(47:33):
And then tomorrow, you'll be on your own.
It's like what, that's not a rehearsal.
So it just goes to show that some ofour processes and the way that we build our businesses, they lack something.
so every chapter has a worksheet.
So my hope with it, I wrote itspecifically so that leaders, I believe that most leaders are incidental leaders.
So, that they've never, they've beenpromoted into a leadership role, but never trained to be leaders.
(47:57):
And so my hope is that they readthis, number one, hopefully they giggle, no end when they read it.
But at the same token, there's a worksheetafter every chapter, and my hope is that.
Leaders can take this with theirmiddle managers and their frontline managers, go through the book, read a chapter a week, work on the worksheets individually, and then come together once a week to compare notes.
(48:18):
Because I have a sneaking suspicionif we do this, we're going to find different ways to be able to do something that really leads to a high level of operational excellence.
Wow.
Such a good idea.
Such a good idea.
I hope so.
and I also think there, whenyou read Marc's book, it is as if Marc is talking to you.
(48:39):
You get that sense that it's aconversational read, which just makes it all that more tangible and easier to digest and understand.
And feel invited in to the conversation.
Oh, well, thank you so muchfor saying that, Susan.
That's that.
No, honestly, that is probablythe best compliment I've received.
(48:59):
Oh,
Thank you.
I care.
This much!
That much more than yesterday, Marc.
Marc, it's been such a pleasurehaving you on Life Beyond the Numbers.
And if people would like to connectwith you, where do they find you?
(49:23):
Just google Marc Haine and you'll find me.
so it's Marc with a C.
So it's spelt the French way because myfather is from Belgium and he taught us to be able to do the Fringlish like that.
It's Marc, M E R C,Hain, H A I N E dot com.
You can find me and my emailis Marc at Marchain dot com.
Super simple.
But look for me on LinkedIn,Instagram, Facebook, online.
(49:47):
I'm everywhere.
Gosh darn it.
I'm like their dirty socks.
You always find them somewhere.
Or sun.
well, maybe that's not thebest analogy because it's not always out in this country.
Rain!
We've always got rain!
(50:07):
you go.
let your smile be your umbrella on arainy day and you will be happily soaked.
Oh, and on that note,there's nothing else to say.
Thank you so much, Marc.
My absolute pleasure.
Thank you, Susan.
It's been a joy.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(50:30):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(50:50):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
today I am Delighted to welcome MarcHaine to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Marc, you're so welcome.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here with you.
I'm delighted you acceptedmy return match request.
I had the privilege of being on MarcHaine live not so long ago and I will post a link to that in the show notes.
(01:40):
It was a lot of fun as wellas giving a lot of value.
Thank you for that opportunity, Marc.
and thank you for being sucha brilliant expert on my show.
Hopefully, hopefully Ican return the favor.
You will, you definitely will.
I can feel it.
and I'm so excited about all of thisbecause When I see what you do and read about you and having spent time with you, I'm even more inspired by your approach.
(02:08):
And I absolutely love what you ask peopleto imagine, which is imagine a world in which the majority of us put more love and care In being of service, where people dare to be the exception every day.
(02:28):
Goosebumps, isn't it?
Yeah, like, why isn'tthat the world's motto?
Well, it's interesting because I reallycame up with that because I was trying to figure out what is the difference between mediocrity, and excellence.
my background has been in hospitalityand, culinary arts was a big part of my, my development and so on.
(02:49):
And I, I always kind of thought, youknow, what's the difference between putting out a good meal and a great meal.
And really at the end ofthe day, I tease people.
I say, for everything that we do,if you cared this much, like just a couple of centimeters of care, It would make all the difference in the world.
And, and so that's how that phrasingcame out to dare to be the exception every day by caring just a little bit, just care a little bit more.
(03:13):
Look at a transaction andsay, how can I put more love and care into what I'm doing?
Do we learn not to?
Where does it all go wrong?
I think that we get so carriedaway by our environment.
(03:33):
That we forget what we're here to do.
I used to joke in hospitality,if it wasn't for all the people, this job would be so easy!
but, the bottom line is, is that asservice providers, and you could be an optometrist giving service, you could be a dentist giving service, you could be in a restaurant giving service.
We do the work every singleday, day in, day out.
(03:55):
We have our strengths and our weaknesses.
We have our highs and our lowsand our energy levels and so on.
And we, we react to ourcustomers within those flows.
One of the things I used to do withmy serving staff because we also in hotels did banquets and every time we did a banquet, we had to make absolutely sure we were bang on.
(04:15):
It had to be 100%.
I mean, you could not go to a bridewhose wedding you just messed up and say, Oh, I'm terribly sorry.
That didn't go well.
Can we give you a 25 percentcoupon for the next time?
You just can't, right?
And so I use that kind of focusof putting on that production.
And I would tell my serving staffin the restaurant, see each of these people at these tables.
(04:37):
Each one of them has their own event.
We don't know if this is the first timethat they're meeting, we don't know if this is a repeat, a second date, maybe it's a business meeting, but everybody's here with their own mini event.
And if we can treat it like that,then whenever we walk into the dining room, we can think, I want to make this event great for them.
And so it takes a lot ofintentionality, but where it goes wrong is that we get complacent.
(05:01):
We just get into the same flow overand over again and it's same repetitive stuff and then we stop caring and we stop going into this is my job mode.
Just treat every day like a banquet.
Every customer in front of you,you can make their day or break it.
(05:21):
And it reminds me of a very recent tripto an electronics store here, which is a frustrating event at the best of times.
I went, I did an order on Amazon andI, I purchased Earpods, that was it.
And they were Marced down on the sticker.
(05:44):
So I went up to the cash register And theyhad the original price, not the new price.
So I explained that they wereMarced down I had to take the lady down, show her where.
Bring her back up and she had to getsomebody to change that on the system.
Nine minutes later, I was stillstanding at the register waiting for the person, the manager, whoever to come.
(06:10):
And when he did, he didn't look at me.
He didn't say, I'm sorry,it's taken me this long.
He didn't say one word, except thefeeling I got was I was in the way I was being awkward and difficult.
And I was just thinking about howeasy would it have been to just give me eye contact and say, it's all sorted for you now, or anything, even acknowledge my presence.
(06:34):
And I'm amazed how we don'ttreat people like people.
Well, and again, you said what's wrong.
here's a guy who's in his little bubbleof his day and he's not opening up his awareness and his intentionality.
And so this is, what's scary aboutthis is this is the leader, this is the floor manager or the department manager, and if he acts that way, how can he insist on high quality of service?
(07:02):
from his staff if he doesn't do it.
Taking that a step further, what wouldhave made that magical would have been if he not only acknowledged, Oh, I'm terribly sorry that we mucked up the price.
I'm terribly sorry.
We'll get this fixed for you.
Oh, by the way, we have a pricing codeof conduct because we made the mistake.
We give you an additional 10pounds off or whatever, 10 off.
(07:25):
Being able to kind of interact withpeople like you're putting on a show has been the catalyst of my background now, and this is what I talk on, forever, because it's all about this idea.
I know you said you readthe first bit of my book.
my first chapter is called experienceexpectations, and that's all about understanding what are the touch points in our businesses and how can we look at the touch points and make them extraordinary rather than just the day to day transaction.
(07:52):
I grew up where I was always told, expectnot, and you shall not be disappointed.
Oh, that is so sad.
I don't think it was meant to be that sad.
But I do think it's funny.
our expectations are generally quitelow, perhaps, in a lot of our one on one interactions in a superMarcet or in a train station or in an electronic store, perhaps different when we're sitting having a meal.
(08:24):
or on a plane.
We have different expectations, butI think they're easily met if there's some intentionality, like you're saying.
Yep.
And all we have to do is just care.
Just care like on an airplane.
Just care that people are on a plane.
it's a routine that mostof us don't do very often.
(08:45):
So why can't we make that extraordinary?
I just found a post on Instagramon the Orlando airport.
During the heat wave,
There were people in the airportgiving out free ice cream.
When we think about airports,we're thinking, Oh my goodness, I was just at LAX.
Oh, it's a terrible airport.
Oh, Toronto, PearsonInternational Airport.
(09:05):
Oh my goodness, if I could stay awayfrom Pearson, that would be great.
Right?
We have all these different picturesin our heads about what airports we like to go to and which ones we want to avoid like the plague.
But here you have, Orlando airports,just because it was a heat wave, I don't know what it cost them.
Maybe it's 50 cents per person, butthere was somebody handing out ice cream.
(09:27):
And so now you have a group of people,travelers inside the airport, all of a sudden getting surprised by this little token that is so minuscule and yet made such a big impact.
It's so true, isn't it?
And what you were saying about avoidingplaces like the plague, it's not the place, it's the experience that we had.
(09:51):
And it's the people often, unfortunately,that have created that experience.
And we remember As, like, youhave the Maya Angelou quote in your book, and so do I.
We remember how people make us feel.
Yes.
Absolutely.
100 percent of the time.
100 percent of the time.
And you might not evenremember people's names.
(10:11):
You might not even remember thewhole context of the experience.
You just remember when I went to thisone particular thing, I had a great time or when I went here, it was terrible.
And my wife is always calling meback and saying, Oh no, we went to that restaurant 10 years ago.
Do you remember how long we had to wait?
Oh, I don't want to go back.
That was 10 years ago, but that'show ingrained these memories be.
(10:34):
Within our psyche to make surethat we don't hurt like that again.
Do we say anything?
I think it's different depending on theside of the ocean, perhaps, that we're on.
Because certainly here, we're not veryproactive at saying, This service sucks.
(10:54):
And we don't have to be that.
You know, we don't have to attackeither, but, but because we're not used to standing up for ourselves or being a little bit more demanding of something basic, we tend then to have an outburst rather than, and again, then that's messing with everything, isn't
Well, I, I do have a theorybecause I'm Canadian, so we're polite about everything.
(11:17):
And so when somebody says, howis everything we say, it's fine.
And then something magical happens whenwe get into our car and drive home.
I think there is a time distancecorrelation between the time we leave and the time we get home.
Because when we open up our laptop,all of a sudden, we're like, We turn into the incredible Hulk on a keyboard.
(11:40):
Yeah, and he certainly wouldn'tlike you when you're angry.
Not you, but any of
exactly.
Don't make me angry.
it's true though.
a lot of us don't say things and welearned not to say things because the result typically it's not humble response.
It's not insightful responses.
It's usually excuses.
(12:03):
Right, so you say to the store managerof the electronics store and right away it's like, Oh, well, you know, I, I'm really sorry about that.
But you know, Steve has been reallybusy and he's been just fighting off a crisis because something didn't get shipped that was supposed to get shipped for a special order.
And it just, it just cameat a really bad time.
I'm really sorry.
That doesn't do it.
(12:23):
That doesn't do it at all.
it really doesn't, does it?
the excuses are
I think we just want the truth.
I go to this coffee shop everynow and then and I was in there one day and There was a queue.
It wasn't huge.
It's a small, little place.
(12:43):
And the guy served somebody and thenhe looked at me and he said, I've got two more people and then you're next.
I think he was maybe doing takeawaysas well and they weren't their orders.
And then he did his thing.
One more.
And he said, just one now.
And he kept me informed the whole time.
And afterwards, when he was servingme, I just said, look, thanks so much.
(13:05):
That was really helpful.
You managed my expectations.
instead of saying like, Oh,another copy, he just did the whole thing really, really well.
And he said to me, he was young.
He was like in his twenties.
He just said, I feel it's reallyimportant to keep people Informed of where they are and what's going on.
(13:25):
And I'm like, yeah, andI will go back there.
Now he's not there anymore andsometimes the service is a little bit hit and miss, but mostly they're really, really lovely in there.
interestingly though, what wasyour response every time you said, Oh, I just have two more transactions and then I'm all yours.
What was your response to him?
Was it that you were pissed off and mad?
(13:46):
Or did you go, Oh, no problem,
No problem.
And I never appearedannoyed in the first place.
So he, even before I had achance to be annoyed at waiting, he's already letting me know.
You've probably got a three minutewait or whatever it is and it just makes all the difference.
We never mind once we're informed,none of us like being kept in the dark,
(14:08):
and it was just such an easy part of thetransaction is just to put up, make that little memo to your waiting clients.
Hey, I just got twomore and I'm all yours.
Hey, I'm down to one.
I'll be right with you.
Right.
And being able to do that just puts outwhatever fire of angst or frustration might be seething in the, embers.
(14:30):
that you've possibly brought withyou from a different situation altogether, but this coffee guy is going to get it in the neck and,
Yeah.
and isn't it the same in ourworkplaces as colleagues as well, Marc, that we care for one another
The big difference I think is goingfrom transactional to relational.
(14:50):
we have to stop thinking in the wayof, okay, I've got this customer.
I'm going to serve this customer.
Now that's done.
Next.
I have a colleague.
He wants something.
He's standing in my doorway.
Okay.
As soon as I'm done this, Ican get onto my next thing.
that's not the way that weinteract as human beings.
Naturally, nature doesn't work that way.
And so this idea ofgetting into conflicts and.
(15:11):
We really could do another podcast on howto respond to negative online reviews, by the way, because there's a formula in what I teach, that you can use, whether it's with a colleague or whether it's, at the electronics store where, you apologize for how the person is feeling.
I'm sorry we made you feel this way.
I'm sorry, this is, I can understand.
And then you tell them howmuch you understand about it.
(15:32):
And then you have The whole focus.
What is your focus as an operation orwhat is your culture as an operation?
And so even when you're going head tohead against a colleague, being able to say, Oh, I'm so sorry that, Oh, I can, I can absolutely understand how frustrating that is for you.
I didn't fill up thephotocopy with all the pages.
I'm terribly sorry.
I will make it.
Absolute commitment that we willmake sure that the photocopies stay stocked, whatever the issues, right?
(15:56):
and being able to do that andapologize for your role in maybe how they feel, even though you might have not done anything wrong.
It's how they feel.
You can't control how other peopleare going to feel, but because we're in a relationship, we could turn around and say, Susan, I, I'm so sorry that I made you feel that way.
(16:17):
I can see how frustrating that is for you.
We'll make absolutely sure that in thefuture, this will not happen again.
Right.
And if it's a team interaction, youcould turn around and say, I'd really love to get together and figure out how we can keep this from happening again.
a manufacturing operationthat has a janitorial service.
(16:39):
The mop bucket is always dirty.
Okay, well, let's get together andlet's figure out what the process should be to make sure that the mop bucket is never going to be dirty in between shifts or between uses or whatever.
What do we need to do?
What's the process?
And then once you bringeverybody in, again, using it as a relationship building.
And saying, we respect each other.
We respect each other'scomments and each other's ideas.
(17:02):
Let's brainstorm on what wecould do to make this better.
Let's answer any objectionsor any challenges we might see in that brainstorming session.
Let's come up with a way thatwould work for everybody.
and like what you're sayingthere is not rocket science.
In fact, it is simple, it'sbasic, Is that why we overlook it?
(17:29):
It's because, again, we'retransactional, we get into the grind, and we forget to care.
You
you're going to keeptelling me this, aren't you?
I am because because ultimatelythat's what it boils down to.
It's that intentionality.
I mean, we've always seen whenwe felt that somebody cared about what what was happening to us?
It always made us perk up and takenotice like when somebody does an act of kindness You don't forget that but at the same token when somebody does something in civil or cruel You won't forget that either the protagonist will like the aggressor will forget about it like I forget that, you came in and it's like, Oh, my goodness.
(18:12):
Are you wearing that to work?
And you know, you're like, Itook time to pick this out.
it's a seagull moment where they come in.
They poop on everything.
They squawk and fly away.
And they don't even remember.
One of the things that I do in some ofthe trainings, leadership development is, is ask people to think about a leader in their life who had an impact on them, like a positive impact.
(18:43):
And everybody around the tablewill sit and take a few minutes and then all the stories will be a version of the same story.
And the leader might be anyone froma former boss, a parent, a teacher, whatever, but it'll be about how much they cared for them and went out of their way to do something and all of that.
And you can see people go,Oh, so I can be like that.
(19:08):
And you kind of go, well,isn't that what you remember?
Why wouldn't you want tobe remembered like that?
And it's just back to basic humanity,
I had a colleague who is one of the bestinquisitive, curious people I've ever met.
And she always askedreally great questions.
(19:31):
And so instead of takingthings at face value.
She would ask really good questions.
And so it helped do a couple of things.
Number one, it helped, me asthe receiver of that to start thinking about what I was saying.
And so, one of the things I tell peoplewhen, when dealing with difficult people, they say something cruel or incivil.
(19:52):
One of the things is I askedthem to repeat what, I'm sorry, what did you just say?
And then they would repeat it.
And then I would say, why wouldyou say something like that?
And all of a sudden, it's amazingto see how people who are in civil, who have something rude to say, will start to back out, and they'll start to justify why they said it that way.
(20:12):
And it's interesting because youreally steal the power from the incivil person who is there to either dominate a conversation, validate their existence, that they know more than you, they're better than you, whatever.
And that's a them problem,it's not a you problem.
And you get them to start thinkingabout how they're responding.
(20:36):
And so I firmly believethat what gets rewarded.
and recognized gets repeated.
So if you catch somebody with a negativebehavior, you're not necessarily rewarding, you're calling it out.
But that's a good way tokeep it from being repeated without, without judging them.
I'm sorry, what did you say?
(20:57):
Huh?
That's interesting.
Why would you say something like that?
or one of my ones is, tell me more.
Yeah, exactly.
That's, that's really interesting.
Can you tell me more?
it can be easy to disarmpeople or get them to think.
(21:22):
I suppose we live in a world of ourown making, and a lot of the time we're just obsessed with ourselves.
And we forget.
To be civil.
Road rage is a perfect example of that.
Right?
It's like, something happens, somebodycuts you off, and right away it's like, I have to get on the horn, I have to flip them the finger, I have to curse at them.
(21:44):
It's like, but you don't stop tounderstand what their situation is.
I have a perfect example.
I, drove into West Edmonton Mall.
West Edmonton Mall used to be thebiggest mall in the world for ages.
Now it's not.
they were installing newrides in the amusement park.
And so there was all these metal girdersand everything all lined up, and as I drove in, I saw a small red pickup truck back out of the parking spot.
(22:07):
And the way he was going, I could seethat because all these metal girders were lower than his bumper, he probably didn't know he was about to bash into it.
So I honked!
And so he slams on the brake.
He looks at me like with a face offury, gives me the finger and peels out.
And I thought, isn't that because theonly thing I was concerned about was I didn't want him to bash up his truck.
(22:32):
He filled in the blanks and justjumps to this massive assumption.
This guy's an assholeand I'm gonna I'm gonna
absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and you know what?
It probably tainted the nexthalf hour, next hour of his day
Or maybe, yeah,
get right, you get yourself all riled up.
And, we don't stop to understandnow, would I say I'm perfect?
(22:55):
No, I'm not perfect, but I try tounderstand, that maybe, the person who just cut me off, maybe they're in a rush.
And I teased my wife, I said, Oh,obviously where he's going is more important than where I'm going.
Right.
but my wife is like,you should all get them.
And it's like, why?
What will it solve?
What would it solve?
Yeah.
(23:15):
And it's not that you're goingto be a pushover in life and let people walk over you, it's just that we don't really ever know, do we?
the stopping to understand, Iroared with laughter with one of your stories in your book.
And it was about an interviewyou had to be a manager.
(23:37):
Yes.
So maybe you would tell us that story.
Yeah.
So I, I, tried for a job and,the, after I met with HR, the CEO wanted to meet with me.
And so I sat in his officeand he proceeded to interview me, but his interview was more like an onboarding process.
It's like, so Marc, we have a reallygood culture here hard work is really rewarded and, and, we, we honor trust and trustworthiness.
(24:06):
You're trustworthy, aren't you?
And, and it's like, yes, sir, I am.
And then he went on this diatribefor like 15 minutes telling me about everything that they did and everything.
and at the very end ofit, he punctuated it.
And all I had to do wasdo this the whole time.
And, and then he got to the, and so Marc,do you think you'd be a good fit for this?
(24:27):
Absolutely, sir.
And then the interview was over.
if I said 10 words, 15 words, that'sall I said during this whole interview, over a period of like 45 minutes.
Right?
And then I got hired.
And then like a few monthslater, I was talking to the HR manager and she says, Oh, Marc, he was really impressed with you.
(24:52):
I said, really?
Oh yeah.
he was blown away by, by yourvalues and, and, and it's like, isn't that interesting?
It's fascinating because the guy just didnot stop to understand anything about you.
No, no, maybe they weredesperate for somebody.
(25:12):
to work there.
Maybe they were really focusedon, I really need to get the right people in there.
And so it became all about him and itbecame less about me or how I could serve or what my needs were and so on.
And it became transactional.
Oh, you mean I have to interview somebody?
Okay.
Okay.
give me five minutesand then send them in.
(25:33):
Right.
And then it's him putting on hislittle hat of rah, rah, whatever.
Well, I have to tell youthat particular business.
certified to become unionized, andit's certified to become unionized because one of the things that he said was, and this was years ago, this was like 10 years earlier.
And this is how good memory is.
About 10 years earlier, he had saidsomething to, well, if you don't like it, employees like you are a dime a dozen.
(25:59):
Oof.
and so.
When it came time when people startedtalking about kind of their work environment and all this and somebody approached him about certifying in a union, that was the big thing that they kept bringing up time and time and time again, because this is what your C.
O.
O.
thinks about you and it reallyreminds me of like today's political situations, right?
(26:25):
Like, I know that evenin Great Britain, yeah.
It seems like we're devolving intoincivility in our interactions.
I'm seeing it a little bit here in Canada.
But the influence of that is the wholeTrump regime, the Trump methodology of leading is starting to dominate.
It's like because Trump now is doingit, it's almost like he's giving us permission to be incivil to one another.
(26:50):
And, I'm seeing it in the Canadianpolitical system as well, that there's more name calling now than there was.
I did see a snippet in Great Britainin Parliament that people were yelling at each other and treating each other with a level of disrespect.
I, I really hadn't seen, there used tobe decorum and somehow we're losing that.
And I think that's a shame because evenwhen you have the mores of decorum that says this is how we're going to act, even though you might be mad, at least by having the standard that we're just going to act like this and then we'll deal with the rest later means that we don't have to be incivil to people and we don't have to crush them in order to get what we want.
(27:31):
I think that COVID contributed to thatas well because we were all locked up for so long that when we came out again it was almost like we had to be trained in how to interact with people, We had lost some of our basic manners.
Not all of us.
I can see that in people and ithas spread into the political side and it's not just decorum, is it?
(27:58):
It's diplomacy and, we're meantto be able to have disagreements with one another without this either or extreme perspective.
And that's why I love whatyou talk about with improv.
This yes and.
(28:20):
Yeah, for those people who don'tknow anything about improv, theater, improvisation, if you ever watched whose line is it anywhere, that's, that's the improv and the whole big overlying philosophy.
And I think it was Tina Fey who kind offigured this out was this aspect of yes.
And which means you takewhat you're given as a gift.
an idea, a thought, a, proposal.
(28:43):
You, you take it as a gift andinstead of saying, no, but you know, we don't have the budget for it.
You say, yes.
And you don't have to vocally say yes.
And you just look at it andsay, okay, what's my yes.
And going to be to this, I'm accepting it.
And okay.
So I'm going to accept it.
Thank you very much for this proposal.
(29:04):
Have you thought about the budgetaryconstraints because that's the yes.
And yes.
And what are we going to doabout budgetary constraints?
And then they feed that and you takethat as a yes and, and I personally think that every time somebody says no, but it takes the idea and it shuts it down.
And if you ever listen to anybody whowill turn around or they'll say yes, but anytime they use the word, but they are shutting down the idea, right?
(29:34):
So you come, you say, I have this greatproposal and they go, yeah, but you know, and then that negative comes.
We don't have the budget.
we don't have the staff.
it's going to take too much training.
And so it's all the excusesof why we can't do something.
And so my response has always been, areyou saying no because it's impossible?
And they typically will say,well, it's not impossible.
(29:55):
And I said, so if it's notimpossible, what will it take?
And it changes the whole conversation,
It really does.
So accepting that, and, I've workedin different environments where, employees are treated like peons.
I truly believe that.
We surround ourselves with people,like when you hired these people, you hired them because they were the best that you could find.
(30:20):
So why not treat them like that?
Because I believe that everybodycomes to the fold with their own superpower, their own ideas, they have their own experiences.
So why can't we tap into that?
Yes, they're not the director ofoperations, but you know what, if I go to this person and I say, so tell me something about this.
And get their perception maybe you'llget insights that you didn't even know existed because you don't have those same insights or same experiences.
(30:49):
And it's not even maybe, is it?
You are going to at least get something.
And maybe not the first timebecause they might be like shocked
first time it's going to be like,
you're what?
me?
am I going to say something out of turnand then get slammed for it afterwards?
exactly.
But creating the environmentwhere you take everyone's perspective into account, it
(31:16):
It's so important.
I think in the book as well, Italked about this one environment where I was doing a SWOT analysis.
And as part of the exercise in the hotel,I, I talked to all the leaders first, and then I started talking to the employees.
And the owner came back from vacation, andhe says, what's this thing you're doing?
You're doing like aswatting or swatting or?
And so I told them what it was and whatthe intent behind a SWAT analysis is.
(31:38):
And for those who don't know, it'sstrength, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats within a business.
And so I was sitting down with employeesand trying to get their perception of it.
And he looked at me, he goes.
What can a dishwashertell me about my business?
And I said, well, you don'tthink that he's got some insights into what he does every day?
I mean, this guy's standing at a dishpit, washing dishes eight hours a day.
(32:00):
He knows where bottlenecks are happening.
He knows what products areworking and what doesn't work.
He knows the hiccups that he's facingin order to do his job effectively.
I believe.
He looks at me and he goes, the only thinga dishwasher could tell me is what time is his smoke break and when does he get paid?
Yeah.
And I thought, okay, well, I'm donebecause that's that mindset that limits us to forever be micromanagers, forever be the heroes of our own story.
(32:31):
And then you are also that person whowill turn around years from now going, I don't know why nobody takes initiative.
I don't know why I always haveto tell people what to do.
I wonder how the person gotlike that in the first place.
I don't spend too much time, butit's also a bit sad because they've probably had people who've treated them in a certain way that that's how they then turn up themselves.
(32:58):
Or they got let down.
They had an expectationthat was unfulfilled.
And because of that, Idon't know, I can trust you.
so that, that happens.
And again, being able to turn around andsay to yourself, why do I feel this way?
About that.
I walked into a middle manager's meetingand, they had like a middle manager's lounge, and I walked in there with my cup of tea, and then the manager was telling the supervisor, oh, this girl Donna, she's such an idiot.
(33:26):
I don't know why we hired her.
And I had to stop right then and there.
I had to stop the whole thing.
I said, I, I need to interject.
If you are saying that Donna is stupid,how do you expect the middle manager to treat her when he goes out there?
And so somewhere along the way, we mustbe very, very cautious of how we see people because it's easy to pass judgment.
(33:50):
It's easy to say somebody is an idiotbecause they made a mistake or whatever.
But we have to understand thatwhen we communicate this within our management team and people, Oh, it's behind closed doors.
It means nothing, but you can'ttell me that it doesn't affect when people step through that threshold.
But you can't tell me it doesn'ttaint their view of what goes on, especially if it's a domineering manager telling somebody this, it's like, how do I get into his good books so I don't become the one that he's going to chastise behind closed doors.
(34:23):
It's about, it's, but it'sexactly what you talk about.
It's this getting beyond thenumbers and thinking about the relationships that we're building.
It's not about profit andloss in these conditions.
Anything we've talked about todayhas not been about profit and loss.
Well, it has indirectly
Absolutely.
Because.
Yeah, because we know that whentrust is low, I think it was, Stephen Covey's son, Stephen Covey, who said that when trust is low costs go high.
(34:52):
Right?
Time goes high.
It takes longer to do things.
look at 9 11 when we all of a suddenhad to go through security checkouts.
Now it takes much longer toget through security checkouts than it ever did before.
Why?
Because trust is low.
So the cost is high now.
It takes more manpower to process.
It takes more time to process it.
And when you don't trust, you're goingto be putting all sorts of things in.
(35:14):
COVID was a perfect example.
What happened the first month of thelockdowns when people had to work from home, you had all these businesses going out and buying surveillance software for the laptops because I want to see that, make sure everybody's doing their work.
And the surveillance software, becauseit generates tons and tons of data that nobody has time to go through, it's kind of like putting up a surveillance camera.
(35:38):
It's great that it's there, but younever have time to watch the footage.
Unless there's a crime committed
Unless there's a crime.
Unless there's a crime, yeah.
Trust.
You talk about cultures and subculturesas well, Marc, within an organization.
And I've seen a lot of that myself.
And I think it's phenomenal how ina really, really awful organization that you can have teams that are just high performing because they all trust one another and they get along.
(36:14):
And, it's not just the leader, but it'sthe moral leadership within the team as well that helps contribute to that.
And so that is something that I, Idon't think a leader can really control.
If you have a toxic work environmentas a whole, it gets harder and harder to do this, but, but then you end up with these kinds of renegades of, I don't want to let this get to me.
(36:34):
do you agree that maybe ourdepartment that we should just, you know, let's just perform at our highest level and see what happens?
Right.
And then people turn around and the restof the organization, the unfortunate part of it is, and I've worked in a municipal government where this was the case, where the, catalyst was all of a sudden people in other departments were pointing fingers at this high performing team because, Oh, how come they get away with this and they're always meeting and how come they're doing.
(36:59):
and I wonder what kind ofwork they're doing and, and it becomes this whole big kind of
backstabbing kind of.
Like it becomes this toxic thingof they have something special.
So let's poop all over it Why can'tthey just be like us and it's like yeah, but you have high turnover You always have people who are angry at work.
(37:20):
People aren't happy.
They're not smiling.
They're disgruntled
It is grunt old and disengaged
and they don't want to be here.
Yeah,
Well, neither do they.
Neither does that personwho's complaining.
Yeah, I'm just here to do my job.
That's it, right?
And to me, that's poison in an industry.
That's poison in any business.
(37:40):
I'm just here to do my job.
Just I'm here.
I show up, I do my job, I go home.
at the very beginning, we talkedabout this aspect of caring.
How can you care ifthat is not the culture?
If you don't have a leader that caresabout you or a middle manager that cares about you as a frontline worker, how are you going to care about your customers?
You can fake it for a littlewhile, but when crisis hits.
(38:03):
We will always default to what thecorporate culture is all about.
Ask any server who went into the kitchento cry after a customer gave them heck or a boss or a manager gave them heck and they're in the back room crying because of the way that they were treated.
And I can tell you it happened.
(38:23):
Anybody watching this, I'm sure knowssomebody who was in the industry.
Oh, I know that happened to Jane.
oh yeah.
And it happens.
In every industry, I think.
That's the thing.
It
And it doesn't have to,and it doesn't have to.
All we have to do is just care this much.
I know, I know.
(38:44):
And it's like, was it Roosevelt whosaid, nobody cares how much you know.
Until they know how much you care.
Yes.
It's so easy.
It's so easy.
and we're natural caregivers yousee two kids playing together.
Okay.
They might have a little fight,but then there'll be, pretend putting bandages on or whatever.
(39:05):
They'll care for eachother and it's in us.
Let it out.
But I think, again, through ourschooling processes, we get all the shaken out of ourselves.
you know, one of the things I tellpeople is as adults, we stop telling people that our feelings got hurt.
If you think about most of the angst,most of the kind of, conflict that we have, somebody's feelings got hurt and we don't talk about it anymore.
(39:30):
We talk about it in gradeschool, you go home and it's like, Oh, little Stevie hit me.
Well, you tell Stevie,he hurt your feelings.
And so you just made me hurt myfeelings and then he pummels you because you're being such a wuss and, and then you learn to stop saying that.
but the fact of the matter is whenpeople get into conflict, it's because somebody's feelings got hurt.
(39:51):
I feel disrespected.
I feel that they didn't give me due, duecourse or due respect, for something.
It's always falls down tosomebody's feelings got hurt.
And now I need to exert myself to eitherdominate back, hit back, or I need to withdraw and cry in a corner someplace.
And that's why my book is abouthow accounting for emotions tips the balance at work.
(40:16):
Because.
does.
Read the book.
If you haven't read thebook, read the book.
So one more thing aboutyour book before we wrap up,
I should, I should hold it
absolutely, well, I actuallydon't show the video.
So Marc's book
Okay.
Light, Camera, Action.
And, I'll let you tell, I'll let you,let you, I'll invite you to tell us a little bit more about it in a moment.
(40:39):
But the thing, oh, here I go with my butt.
The thing about, Improv.
Well, I, one sentence just jumped offthe page and that sentence from you was innovation is born through improvisation.
Yes.
We've, we've never invented anythingknowing what the outcome is going to be.
(41:02):
We, we have an objective.
To it.
But what it gives us isgives us the curiosity to say what happens if we do right.
without being curious and beingintentionally curious, you can't innovate, you can't look at something and say, How can we fix this?
Unless you're looking at somethinggoing, you know, we've been doing this for like 20 years.
(41:23):
Technology's changed, cultureschanged, generations changed.
Is there anything thatwe should change here?
And by asking that question, allof a sudden magical things come up.
You no longer have people going,well, we do it because that's the way we were trained and that's the way we're, we have to do it this way,
Right?
And so we get innovation.
By saying to people, yes and,tell me more, give me more information, okay, let's explore it.
(41:49):
let's break it down.
Let's break it out.
Let's, let's get to the idea and say,what is it we're trying to achieve?
Somebody might come to you with anidea and you go, let's take the yes and, I really like, okay, I understand.
What is the problem thatwe're trying to solve?
Because sometimes the idea coming toyou might be a band aid to a problem, but now you're in a communication, which is the key to any relationship.
(42:13):
And now you're having that communicationand you're being able to share ideas.
And from there, you come to anunderstanding, you get clarity, and from there you can become more innovative.
I used to work somewhere wherewe were told to be innovative, almost like almost ordered under
Didn't you get the memo?
(42:36):
It was kind of like that.
And it was the worst atmosphereand it shut everything down.
You cannot be curious.
If you're stressed.
Well, and you can't be curious if you'reconstantly being, chastised for it.
The minute somebody turns around andgo, look, it's not your department.
(42:56):
Don't worry about it.
We got to have done thedepartment for that.
Or you know what?
Just focus on what you need to do.
Well, the minute you shut peopledown, they'll stay shut down.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's so simple.
it seems like it, but everybodywatching is nodding their head going.
Oh, yeah.
I remember a time.
(43:17):
I remember that one person.
Well, I'd love to hear those stories.
So if anyone has some great stories forMarc and I, be sure to send them our way.
Yes, please.
Marc, tell us a bit about what you doin the world and your wonderful book.
Thank you.
(43:37):
so lights, camera actionwas actually born.
As I mentioned, I spent manyyears in hospitality and it was one of those industries.
I thought, all the People problemswe had was endemic to hospitality until I worked for municipality doing a service excellence program.
And I got to work with other businessesand realizing, Oh, wait a second.
The problem is humanbeings, not the business.
from there in 2016, I started to act.
(44:00):
And so I had a, I had my colleaguecame and knocked on my door and she says, Marc, you act, right?
And I said, well, sometimesI act silly, sometimes goofy, but most times just immature.
And she goes, no, no, no, no.
Like on a stage.
And it's like, Oh, I'venever thought of it.
She goes, we're doing this playand you'd make a really great for this one particular character.
And it's like, Oh, I'venever acted before.
(44:20):
I've always secretly wanted to,but I'm so afraid that I can't remember what I had for breakfast.
How am I going to remember lines?
But I went ahead and did it.
And I have to tell you.
After three and a half months ofrehearsals, I don't care how funny the play is, nothing is funny anymore.
And at three and a half months goinginto a four month rehearsal and you think, why are we doing this?
The stress, I have to remember allthese lines and this is so, why did I do this to my, this sucks, this is terrible, why are we doing this?
(44:46):
And I have to tell you, opening night,I'm standing behind the door backstage.
Now I have to step onto stage.
This is first time ever acting.
the lights dimmed downin the whole auditorium.
My hand is on the doorknob.
I'm waiting for the music cue to step out.
The music cue comes, the lights goon, and I step out onto the stage.
Can't see anything becauseyou're blinded by all this light.
(45:09):
And I utter my first few words,and then I hear laughter from a room full of 250 to 300 people.
And it sent chills up my, because atthat moment, even though I was in the middle of a scene, at that moment I realized This is why we're doing it.
And it was such a profound moment forme that the next day I came in two hours early from the call time and I walked into the venue and I went to the lighting board and I turned on the stage lights.
(45:33):
And that was the first time I got to seewhat the audience saw, which was all of a sudden this setting that gave a time, a place, almost a situation because it was, a French, kind of resort area.
And I thought that is absolutely magical.
I turned on the lights, I went upon the stage, I sat on the couch and looked at everything that we created.
(45:58):
Coordinating volunteers, coordinatingcaterers, setting up the dinner theater, building up the stage, building out the stage, all had to be done.
The rehearsals, the coordination ofevery aspect of the experience for our customers, for our audience.
And I thought to myself, if businessesput that much time, attention, and focus into their business that we did to put on six shows, We'd have amazing businesses, and that was a catalyst for Lights, Camera, Action.
(46:26):
So I took the whole idea of putting ona live theater play, and I said, what happens if I put business into this lens?
What would happen?
And so what happens is Iwrote this book, 20 chapters.
Most of them are hilarious becausewhen you read them, number one, you've experienced it in some form or fashion yourself, at least I hope so, and, we look at from the business perspective, and it just shows how.
(46:48):
Ridiculous.
Some of our processes are whenwe think about what we do in our business, if you were putting a live show for it's a perfect example in hospitality, it's not unheard of.
That you'll apply for a servingjob and they say, Oh good, you have three years experience serving.
That's really great.
Okay.
Here's the menu.
Here's your apron.
Here's your card for thepoint of sale system.
(47:10):
That's your section over there.
Go would be akin to, Oh, 10 years acting.
Oh wow.
Shakespeare.
Wow.
That's so good.
Wow.
I can't wait to see your show.
Okay.
So here's your costume.
Here's the script.
You go on in 10.
We would never do that.
But yet in businesses, we dothat all the just shadow him, just shadow him for a shift.
(47:33):
And then tomorrow, you'll be on your own.
It's like what, that's not a rehearsal.
So it just goes to show that some ofour processes and the way that we build our businesses, they lack something.
so every chapter has a worksheet.
So my hope with it, I wrote itspecifically so that leaders, I believe that most leaders are incidental leaders.
So, that they've never, they've beenpromoted into a leadership role, but never trained to be leaders.
(47:57):
And so my hope is that they readthis, number one, hopefully they giggle, no end when they read it.
But at the same token, there's a worksheetafter every chapter, and my hope is that.
Leaders can take this with theirmiddle managers and their frontline managers, go through the book, read a chapter a week, work on the worksheets individually, and then come together once a week to compare notes.
(48:18):
Because I have a sneaking suspicionif we do this, we're going to find different ways to be able to do something that really leads to a high level of operational excellence.
Wow.
Such a good idea.
Such a good idea.
I hope so.
and I also think there, whenyou read Marc's book, it is as if Marc is talking to you.
(48:39):
You get that sense that it's aconversational read, which just makes it all that more tangible and easier to digest and understand.
And feel invited in to the conversation.
Oh, well, thank you so muchfor saying that, Susan.
That's that.
No, honestly, that is probablythe best compliment I've received.
(48:59):
Oh,
Thank you.
I care.
This much!
That much more than yesterday, Marc.
Marc, it's been such a pleasurehaving you on Life Beyond the Numbers.
And if people would like to connectwith you, where do they find you?
(49:23):
Just google Marc Haine and you'll find me.
so it's Marc with a C.
So it's spelt the French way because myfather is from Belgium and he taught us to be able to do the Fringlish like that.
It's Marc, M E R C,Hain, H A I N E dot com.
You can find me and my emailis Marc at Marchain dot com.
Super simple.
But look for me on LinkedIn,Instagram, Facebook, online.
(49:47):
I'm everywhere.
Gosh darn it.
I'm like their dirty socks.
You always find them somewhere.
Or sun.
well, maybe that's not thebest analogy because it's not always out in this country.
Rain!
We've always got rain!
(50:07):
you go.
let your smile be your umbrella on arainy day and you will be happily soaked.
Oh, and on that note,there's nothing else to say.
Thank you so much, Marc.
My absolute pleasure.
Thank you, Susan.
It's been a joy.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(50:30):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(50:50):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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