March 15, 2025 • 46 mins
"... you take people outdoors. They get into a resourceful state, you're able to explore more. You can use nature. I call it wayfinding, just like you use a compass and things like that. You can use the path you're on as a metaphor. And because you're outdoors, you can stay inquisitive longer." Murph
Murph and I explore the incredible benefits of movement, nature and human connection in leadership and decision-making. We discuss how walking and movement help unlock creativity, enhance decision-making and act as a natural "reset" for the brain. Being outdoors helps people escape fixed thinking patterns and fosters deeper, more meaningful conversations during their shared experience. Murph also shares insights into the power of flow states and why human intelligence remains our greatest asset in a world increasingly dominated by artificial intelligence.
Murph is a philosophical adventurer and seasoned coach with a mission to regenerate our approach to community, learning, and personal growth through nature and adventure. With deep roots in outdoor pursuits and wilderness survival, Martin designs and leads bespoke adventure-based learning experiences that enhance wellbeing, resilience, and team performance. Drawing inspiration from philosophers like Aristotle, Martin offers Wild Coaching and Wisdom Walks, integrating ancient wisdom with modern strategies for personal and professional development. These immersive "walkshops" guide leaders and teams into the wild to unlock creativity, strengthen bonds, and foster a regenerative mindset. With a background in military training, environmental science, and outdoor leadership, Martin’s life has been shaped by a deep connection to the outdoors. From early Himalayan explorations to jungle survival training, Martin now channels this wealth of experience into empowering others to harness the transformative power of adventure for mental health and wellbeing.
Connect with Murph:
Through LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinmurphy-coach/
Through his website https://martinmurphy.coach/
And on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stoicPILGRIMCOACH/
Resources Mentioned:
Episode 42, Metamorphosis, with John Shinnick
McKinsey Study on Flow States – Research showing executives in flow states are five times more effective.
Ian McGilchrist – Referenced for his work on the asymmetry of the brain
Wayfinding by Michael Bond – Discussed in relation to how over-reliance on GPS is diminishing our natural navigational abilities and intelligence. The book explores the psychology of being lost and how it parallels problem-solving in the workplace.
Forest Bathing (Shinrin-Yoku, Japan) – Mentioned in relation to how walking in nature, particularly around trees, increases oxygen intake and contributes to mental well-being
Stoicism – Murph discusses Stoicism as a philosophy that influenced his approach to resilience, mindset, and coaching. His Instagram handle, Stoic Pilgrim, reflects this blend of Stoic thought and the continuous journey of learning and self-improvement.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am delighted to welcomeMartin Murph Murphy to Life Beyond the Numbers, and I am going to call you Murph.
Hello,
very welcome.
Now, Murph, I came across, apost on LinkedIn that spurned me to get in touch with you.
(01:38):
And it was something that JohnShinnick, who had been on this podcast quite some time ago, episode 42.
reposted and it was about wild coachingand he mentioned how he spent time in the hills with you and he always comes back with something added.
Okay.
(01:58):
And I just thought that wassuch a lovely jumping off point.
So maybe you talk to me a littlebit about Walking and wild coaching.
Hmm.
right.
Okay.
Well, he's a bit of a legend,John Shinnick, anyway, isn't he?
So, in the Manchester community.
yeah, well, coaching, it's, there'sa lot more of it going on, I think, it seems to be the in thing.
(02:19):
Um, I started a long time ago doingthis, finding the benefit of being outdoors, but basically it's about promoting wisdom and wellbeing by walking and talking in nature.
it started for me kind of probablyabout 20 years ago, I kind of finished with the middle of the security world.
I got bored of that.
(02:40):
And I went to university, andgot a degree in environmental studies and outdoor pursuit.
I thought I'd probably be able togo and join Greenpeace or something like that and get on those boats and do all that exciting stuff.
Anyway, they told me to sod off basically.
So, so I thought, what can I do?
And, whilst I was waiting, I starteddoing some personal training and it tended to be business owners.
(03:01):
And, as I learned NLP and, coachingand other forms of psychology, mainly to sort my own problems out from a dysfunctional childhood.
But, yeah, I started chatting topeople, and what they were finding more beneficial wasn't me kind of beating them up and down, football fields, trying to get them fit.
They actually liked it when we wentfor a walk around the golf course, it was around Mottram Hall at the time.
(03:25):
And.
That, that got me thinking, well,actually, yeah, there's something in this, this idea that you take people outdoors and as a result of that, it frees up some minds,
I talk a lot about flow states, you know,this flow states are these, these optimal states that you get into, you feel kind of relaxed, but it's really focused, you're liberated, you kind of lose yourself
(03:54):
And it's actually down to a thingcalled hypotransient frontalis, but you lose track of time.
You lose yourself inwhatever you're doing.
you have this optimal gripon reality and yourself.
So you seem just to be able to findthe right answers at the right time.
And It leads to more deeper wisdom,if you like, because it's kind of like an extended aha moment, and this is all caused by the fact that you're actually doing something.
(04:17):
we're designed to move.
We should be doing about 25 paces daily.
That was a hunter gatherer lifestyle.
And, we actually thinkbetter when we're moving.
It actually, there's loads ofstudies coming out now, about increasing brain endurance.
So if you actually do somephysical exercise and you think about a challenge, it actually builds a better brain resilience.
(04:39):
so the walking gets you into, resourceful.
Date.
You're outdoors.
I mean, it's hidden in our language.
We tend to look down atphones and things like that.
So it's like downright sad is where wetend to look and that's how we feel.
if things are brighter, if things arelooking up brighter, we know that, quite a lot of people who are creative, for instance, might be promoted and put in a corner office and they wonder why they can't create these more creative visuals, things, ideas, because they're stuck in a corner office.
(05:09):
So yeah, you take people outdoors.
they get into a resourceful state,you're able to explore more.
you can use nature.
I call it wayfinding, just like you use acompass and things like that, so you can use, the path you're on as a metaphor.
And, because you're outdoors,you can stay inquisitive longer.
Because you're outdoors, it helps youshift from left brain into right brain.
(05:34):
Dr. McGilchrist has revisited this ideaof left and right, the asymmetrical brain.
He says that the actual corpuscallosum acts As an inhibitor so if you're stuck in one side the left tends to be very competitive and controlling and it lacks certainty.
(05:54):
So you jump to conclusions, a bitquicker, whereas when we're doing this, you're able to stay inquisitive longer.
And, so there's this liberation thenyou're hoping to free them from fixed thinking or, you know, mental sclerosis, I suppose, fixed ideas and things like that.
And it just increases the ecology of mind.
(06:15):
Most decision making models, whetherit be, plan, do, check, adapt, OODA loops, and even the GROW model is goal.
What's the goal?
What's the reality?
Divergent.
Which option are you goingto choose the way forward?
(06:35):
It's all divergent, convergentand emergent, and they all follow that pathway.
OODA loop just goes faster.
So you go into on this fixedthinking way, competitive.
quicker.
and because we want to be in this, theleft brain and Dr. E. McGilchrist, says that we've created this left brain world, capitalism, all that sort of thing.
(06:58):
So yeah, if you can get people outof it, you can't do it straight away.
I noticed this working with people atthe fire service and other clients, leaders who were trying to talk about wellbeing, they would, On one to ones, they'd say, so how are you doing?
How do you feel?
Well, I feel fine, because obviouslyno one likes talking about that.
so they just go straight backto, right, so okay, let's have a look at your numbers.
(07:19):
And the reason for that, of course, isthe fact that it's actually difficult.
It takes time.
You've got to build rapport up for onething, get into a resourceful state, but it takes time because the corpus callosum, once we're in one side, it stays there.
And really what we're trying todo is, develop this other side, which is more the right side.
And as a result of that, it's likeGregory Bateson's idea of ecology of mind.
(07:43):
you start seeing us thinking as anecosystem and, we can be more coherent and that's what we're looking for.
So like the pair of pathetics, I thinkthey're called the, the idea of the Lyceum and Aristotle started this.
He used to take his.
his students outdoors andtalking, walking, talking.
So it's not a new idea.
It's been around for centuriesand, yeah, it just works.
(08:07):
It just works.
And I think instinctively, Murph, weknow that because oftentimes somebody will say, I need to go outside to clear my head or I'm going to go for a walk and figure this out.
So that movement and that outdoors.
Is it's in us and sometimes thewisdom just kind of takes over and says, that's what you need.
(08:30):
Does it surprise people though?
Because it sounds like a luxury when,when I need to be focused on the numbers or whatever it might be in a workplace.
And then suddenly I meet Murph and hesays, come on, we're going for a walk
well,
there's a few things there.
(08:50):
If you're in a flow state, so likeMcKinsey, you've done, work on this and they've realized that executives are five times more affected.
So you just can't be in aflow state all the time.
So that's one thing.
the act of walking, actuallyacts a bit like EMDR.
It's, it's like this bilateralmovement encourages bilateral thinking.
so as a result of that, you bring moreof your brain to the, If you like the more of yourself to the problem, if you were facing a problem or understanding a problem, and because you're in a flow state, when you do come to look at the numbers, you'll probably be more spot on your people, probably more effective as a result of that.
(09:29):
yeah.
it's, it's like a reset, isn't it?
you're resetting your brain.
One of the things about flows is fullstates to flow and what people do.
You might have come across thisidea where you've had a really good day and you understand this flow state 'cause you, oh yeah.
You've just had this optimalgrip, as I say, and you've achieved lots off your to do list.
(09:50):
And then you come in the next day andgo, or you think to yourself, right, I'm going to have another good day like that.
You do exactly the same thing, do your todo list, and you just can't get into it.
And the reason for that isbecause, you are suffering from what's known as a flow hangover.
And it's partly due to glutamate, whichis one of the neurotransmitters in the brain that Allows for focused thinking and so it would make you better with the numbers and the old glutamate still stuck in your brain cells and you need to flush it out and the way to do it is I sleep well, but also exercise.
(10:23):
So it's kind of like an active recovery.
So it comes down to theidea of, sharpening the axe.
It's, you need to, you will be moreeffective if you're able to have little breaks and to do some active recovery.
completely.
And I have never heard thatterm flow hangover before.
And it puts to mind, it'snot the circadian rhythm, but it's one of those rhythms.
(10:48):
And I started to work likethat for quite a while.
I was writing a book and doing90 to 120 minutes of real focus work, and then a 20 minute active recovery, which generally involved going out, stay outstairs, outside.
And, It was fascinating how I could getright back into that state then again.
(11:15):
as long as it was active recovery, Ithink that's the difference, isn't it?
And, whether if you're scrolling on yourphone or watching TV, that's just passive.
And I think a lot of the times We thinkthat to relax, we need to be sitting down or doing something passive.
When actually the R& R, the relaxationand recovery, having an activity is much better for us, isn't it?
(11:44):
Yes, funnily enough, before the pandemicI was over in the Middle East, we were actually teaching intelligence agents, about leadership, and they would, they had, I can't really tell you where it is and all that sort of thing, but it's, it was, It consisted of us giving lectures, you know, 40 minute lectures in a big hall all together.
(12:05):
And then we would walk thestudents to various other rooms.
And one of the, hierarchy thought, well,can we not just condense this and just keep them in the room for eight hours?
It takes everything.
And I explained to them, well,no, actually walking the largest muscles in the body are the gluteus maximus, the leg muscles.
Backside muscles, when you're walking,you're flushing and, getting the brain, getting the blood pumping round.
(12:31):
And as a result of that, this activerecovery means that when they go to have the smaller group discussions about the theory that you've just been talking about, they'll be more effective in that state.
So, yeah.
And they were walking and talkingas they were going as well.
So, yeah.
it's a much.
more coherent way of approaching thinking,if you like, is to be able to move.
(12:56):
It is.
And, and yet, we don't do it enough.
Whoa, gosh, watch out, Icould get on my soapbox here.
well, of course not now, because,industrial revolution thinking is that, we've tried to make people, well, I haven't, but, the whole idea behind, the Industrial Revolution was to, create technology.
(13:21):
technology is always a toolto acquire power of a resource and relate, replace people.
So the plough, took over fromlike 10 jobs and then the tractor, a hundred jobs and that, so on.
And so That's been increased all the time.
but the thing is now we've got tothe point where we can be more human.
In fact, we need to get back to beingmore human because we don't need widgets anymore, industry doesn't need widgets.
(13:47):
It needs humans.
we've got all the technology we want.
Now we can replace asmany humans as we want.
So now we're going to findother ways to be more human,
I think the thing that I say thatcapitalism got wrong is the fact that, capitalism is all about competition.
but it's ideas that compete,whereas people should collaborate and collaboration was our, evolutionary advantage.
(14:12):
And what makes us better atthinking is to move and think at the same time, most of the time,
to the time.
And that's a lovely segue actually tothe rest of that post that I talked about at the beginning that John Shinnick reposted because you said something that's very, very Dear to my thinking as well.
(14:33):
And that was that future sustainablesuccess depends on human intelligence as much as artificial intelligence.
And are we in fear of throwingthe baby or human nature out with the digital bathwater?
And I won't say it's somethingthat keeps me up at night, but it certainly is one of those things that.
(14:54):
That I have a big focus on becausethat human intelligence, we haven't even touched on it here.
Almost.
we've kind of ventured a little bit intoit, but we're capable of so much more.
And I listened to a podcast episodethat you talked about collective intelligence, and that's something that we will never get unless we collaborate.
(15:17):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
as we find with AI and, and robotics,I mean, AI just de skills us and just takes away our intelligence.
I wrote a book, about five, sevenyears ago now, I think it is.
And I said, Much like the special forcesmodel, but also how hunter gatherers operate and also people like Steve Jobs did the same thing, which was to create these small teams at the liminal edges who were able to collaborate at a higher level and have more agency and autonomy, mutual accountability, alignment to the mission and purpose.
(15:49):
And in doing so they became highlyeffective, but we always call them special project teams or special forces or, or whatever you want to call it, They always thought that was special, but actually no, that's just how humans are supposed to operate.
and we lost that for a whilewith the industrial revolution and factory farming and factory everything else, and factory humans.
(16:10):
if you're being dis skilled becauseyou're just relying more and more on technology, you're going to find yourself at some point out of work.
And also, what have you got left?
Well, the only thing, go backto our revolutionary advantage, which was collaboration.
And that's a really interestingpoint about this special, special projects and the special ops and special forces and so on.
(16:35):
cause I heard somebody talking aboutthis recently in relation to athletes, because athletes, I guess, are people that normal people, day to day people understand going to flow state, or the zone or whatever they call it, and how.
All of them, well, somebody wrote abook and the people that he spoke to had all had extraordinary experiences in this flow state by accessing their own intelligence in a way that they weren't aware of before that and were aware of.
(17:11):
Unhappy, or unwilling to talk about it,because it wasn't something that was talked about, so it was seen as special,
When actually, that could be the ordinary,if, if more of us were able to access that part of us, because it's there for us all.
yeah.
Absolutely.
the health benefits are massivefrom this, this kind of thinking.
(17:35):
I mean, everyone knows that,people that do run and do keep fit, they feel great afterwards.
you know, they think it's, Downto endorphins, the run is high, but it's actually endorphins is just, almost like a painkiller.
it doesn't pass a blood brain barrier.
What it is, is a substance calledanandamide, which comes from the Sanskrit word meaning bliss, the bliss molecule, but basically it attaches to the THC receptors in your brain and, allows the brain to it disparate parts tend to connect more so, by going for a walk there's loads of different things that are released and lots that's going on.
(18:13):
But that's one of the major ones andthat's where the bliss idea comes from.
But it also it's alsoconnecting your brain.
I mean, basically, it's like smoking.
You're not smoking pot, but it'sthe brain's version of that.
And it's administeredin just the right way.
just the right time.
Yeah.
And if you think about how farwe've come and how creative and,
(18:36):
when great things are inventedor thought of or new ideas come out, it's always a collaboration.
the idea of a lone genius.
it's probably overemphasized actuallyeven Einstein had to have a chat with someone else while start walking before their ideas came, so yeah, we people that experience flow states report having more meaningful lives as a result of it.
(19:01):
So.
Yeah, cool.
So that would then, if you have ameaningful life, it means that you'll probably produce a substance called GABA, gamma amyl butyric acid, which just acts on the parasympathetic nervous system.
So yeah, you go out for a walk in thehills, having a great chat with someone, bouncing ideas around, you're allowed to be inquisitive longer, more coherent thinking, joined up thinking, if you like, and you feel great afterwards.
(19:29):
Thanks.
With bags of ideas.
You do, you do, and The otherthing about it is it's free to go outside, I think it's
Well, not if you gowalking with me, but yeah.
That's different, you're paying for theconversation there, not the walk as such.
(19:51):
But, but nature being such a greatteacher and being so available to us and resourcing us is something that's free.
I often think that we undervaluethings like that because
(20:12):
Because we're not paying forit as such, we might not see that it can bring us something.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think most people are, or maybeit's just the circle I'm in.
because, you know, we dothis, I go net walking, model.
I guide, I'm a mountain leader.
(20:32):
So I guide, networking for acompany called in Manchester.
And, Yeah, funnily enough, the, the freshwalk has come at the end of the month.
It's usually a hard walkat the end of the month.
And the kind of research that MichaelDePalo had done on that was the fact that people at first came for the networking, but then came, then it became a, a community and actually it was the community aspect that they came for.
(21:03):
and you just hear theconversations that go on.
It's just amazing, you know?
Everyone's in this flow state.
It's, a lot of people say thatit's, like a reset, walking out in nature is a reset for the brain.
And if they've had a hard month,but, but it's always the last Fridays and the month when the community network goes out, it's great.
(21:24):
They absolutely love it.
But similarly, when you, we have a lot of.
clients now, who are, sorry aboutthe pinging in the background, my wife's phone, I forgot it was in here.
Um, so yeah, A lot of our clients arefinding, we take professional services firms out, and what they're doing and they're finding that, they might've taken them to the races or shopping or whatever, and, and just normal networking, events, but they're actually finding that people are reporting afterwards.
(21:55):
No, it's the time wewent walking with you.
Even.
If it was raining, because you've had thisshared experience, and it's about that, the fact that, you have a shared novel experience together, you've, you've done something together, and you've had a very powerful experience that's been backed up because you've been in this flow state, and you're not waking up with a hangover.
(22:15):
in the alcoholic type of way.
So, yeah, they're finding that thatof all the things that they do, going out walking in the hills with clients is much the best way to do it.
If I'm going to meet apotential client, I don't.
Let's just meet somewhere for a coffee.
I say, well, let's get out on the hill.
And you'll benefit, you'll see foryourself, how it could benefit you when you have a chat outdoors and that has a more bonding effect because obviously walking in nature also releases oxytocin, which, it's known as cuddle, neurotransmitter or whatever, but it, what it actually does is bond people.
(22:52):
and so, yeah, when you're out, it's,it's a more memorable, memorable meeting and more meaningful and more impactful.
So, yeah.
Aren't we all doing it?
Yeah.
I know.
I did think about having thisconversation while walking outdoors, but I think it would have just been too distracting when we weren't together.
(23:13):
And because I have done one podcastrecording outdoors, actually, and it was just, it's just, I mean, it's just magical, isn't it?
To be outdoors anyway.
And, I grew up beside the sea and, and forme, you can solve everything by walking by the sea, even alone, and I wondered about that actually, as you're talking
(23:36):
about being outdoors and the silence.
Because there's a different soundwhen you get away from traffic.
The quality of the sound and thesilence is very, very different.
So I wonder, does thatplay a role as well, Murph?
yeah, I would say so.
(23:57):
if you think about traffic,it's quite a stressful thing going on in the background.
there's a few things going on here.
well, for one thing that, when you getinto flow states, you shift away from hypotransient frontalis it's called, but it's like the, default mode network, a part of the brain, that closes off.
(24:18):
And so you switch from ruminatingto reflecting it's you're not ruminating on the past so much.
so that's one thing
I think when you're outdoors as well.
There's not a lot of research on this,but, since the industrial revolution, well, agrarian revolution, we've kind of gone backwards in our culture.
(24:38):
So we've, creative hierarchiesand things like that.
Well, it's actually quite stressful to bein a hierarchy unless you're the leader.
If you're the leader, you'll gointo dominance behavior system.
It's another part of the brain, but theopposite of that for the majority of people is involuntary defeats system.
When we take teams out on, in the hills.
you lose that.
(24:59):
it's more egalitarian.
and as a result of that,people find that, healthy.
And then of course, if you are walkingin trees, for instance, I know they have like the forest bathing in Japan and they put it down to certain, chemicals in the air, from pines and things like that, but also, trees produce a lot more oxygen.
You actually are taking an oxygen bathby going through woodland, for instance.
(25:22):
So yeah, There's a lot to it, butthere's various reasons why going away from traffic and going outdoors is going to be more beneficial.
Better oxygen.
You're going to flush thesystem out a lot quicker.
Your, glutamate's being refreshed.
(25:42):
All these neurotransmittershave been refreshed.
and it's more egalitarian when you gooutdoors, you're walking side by side.
if you look at Rogerian, CarlRogers's, person centered counseling, I think it was six core, things about, to be in a therapeutic relationship and how you should be.
But three of them, three coreskills are the same thing that you get from walking side by side.
(26:04):
you're not a therapist,you're just being authentic.
And the fact that you're doingthis walking and also, as I said before, bilateral thinking.
These are like three core conditions forfor a therapeutic thing, acceptance, which you get when you're outdoors, whereas you tend to be less accepting when you're in a culture or a system that's hierarchical.
(26:25):
So, yeah,
And even metaphorically, I mean, it's notmetaphorically because you are outdoors, but you've got the expanse, when you're in an office or a room, you are confined inside in the borders and, and the color, I mean, our offices tend to be horrible.
Some of them without windows all ofthat is having an impact on how our brain is processing and we're seated.
(26:51):
And like we said at thebeginning, we started this off by, the movement and even.
a very simple movement is often likeif you're stuck at something, the worst thing you can do is stay sitting there trying to figure it out because the minute you move, even if you just go down the stairs and up again, you've shifted what your brain is paying attention to.
(27:14):
There's a huge case or there's so manyreasons why we should be going outside.
I hate to use the word should,but you know what I mean in the context of the conversation.
absolutely.
I don't, I don't know whatmore I can, can say related.
(27:35):
know if there was aquestion in there anyway.
Yeah, I don't know what more I can say to,as I say, there's a raft of transmitters.
It's, it'll increase yourlongevity anyway, so you'll be more effective for longer.
there's the whole, do you wanta lifespan or a health span?
Yeah, absolutely.
we want a longer health span,getting outdoors and talking, your ideas are better, because you're creatively collaborative.
(27:59):
It's using the right side ofthe brain more, which sees things in more holistic ways.
You, you're getting away from the stressof being in a hierarchical system.
As we know, when you're stressed,one of the first things that happens is that your brain closes down And you've got this level of anxiety.
So even if you're in a hierarchicalsystem in the, in, because that's traditionally what a lot of firms have always been like, you know, special forces tend to shun that kind of thing.
(28:26):
But when you go out outdoors, yougive people a break from that.
And it means that if you takea team out, you can be more.
You come across more authenticallybecause you're outdoors, if you walk into an office, you'll be triggered and anchored into a certain mode of thinking, the involuntary defeat system might be that you just, you don't want to offer suggestions if you're a team member, because you don't want to get it wrong.
(28:54):
you're scared of being madea fool of whereas you go outdoors, it's more egalitarian.
it levels the playing field andeveryone's can contribute better.
And they're also being, they're enjoyingthemselves while they're doing it.
even the days when you've had a reallywet muck, what I call a muck and mayhem kind of day sort of thing, at the end of it, they're like, do you remember that time when we went and did that?
(29:16):
people start panicking about thefact that it's raining, whatever.
It's amazing how more impactfulthat is because you've had the shared experience together.
I mean, you know, the Fresh Walkers,they've, They talk about the worst days more than they do the good days.
would you remember that time?
And then Mike had that like thousandyard stare at the pub afterwards.
Something, it's, I'm sold.
(29:36):
What about you?
Well, I have the benefit, I suppose,of having grown up in the countryside.
And I do think that makes you.
Well, from my own perspective,just being outside and going outdoors and going for a walk.
It was just in us, I cycled toschool in all weathers for my whole way through secondary school.
I was back in Galway recently whereI went to university and we were just talking about how you never left.
(30:01):
your digs without your rain gear,because it was always raining.
and that's, like you said, we rememberedhaving to lift our bikes up over a hill, kind of, up onto a bridge in the rain pouring against you, but you did it.
And I'm a firm believer in going outside.
I, what, I suppose whatI, maybe where I'm less.
(30:25):
I won't say convinced because that's notthe case is where there's a discrepancy or where maybe more reconciliation needs to take place is, is perhaps bringing some of my work outside.
and it's really interesting.
I've talked to quite a fewpeople who work outdoors and.
Like you're doing yourself, Murph, and Ithink perhaps it's something that I need to look at a little bit more in my own work as well because even as you were talking there about going into an office and imagining the same roles that you're in or afraid to say anything, often people are trying to bring about change, right?
(31:03):
But they won't even go outsideand have a walk outdoors.
They won't even change the scene becausethat's literally what you're doing.
And like you said, itopens up so much more.
And I wonder how much the from homeof an office environment impacts it.
(31:27):
you're sorry.
I thought you were frozen.
no, I was listening intently.
That's why I was justso working from home.
Well, funnily enough.
Yeah.
I don't know whether this relates towhat you're alluding to is, is the problem with working from home and the problem that younger people have who have grown up as digital natives, perhaps, is the fact that they're
(32:04):
gosh we're going into a whole new thinghere but One of the challenges that we've got is with young people, and I know this is a generalization because obviously some are super athletes but there seems to be a lack of resilience.
In the younger, gosh, I'm going toget in trouble, younger generation, can I say that without getting shot?
(32:25):
I don't know, but,
I think life is easier in one way.
yeah, so,
less hardship.
yeah, so there's Yeah,there's good stress and bad
Yes.
And, the, the good stress iswhen you've, it's actually down to dopamine actually, isn't it?
So, dopamine, old technology anddigital stuff is, is, gives us a, a boost of dopamine, but what happens is that, you get the dopamine and, Then as it goes, you get another, every time you scroll or something like that, you get in this dopamine.
(32:58):
So eventually the dopaminestops working so much.
there's that side of it.
So, as a result of that,people are feeling.
less happy because they'rebecoming resistant to dopamine.
So that's one thing.
there's also the other thing is that,you know, the good thing about walking is that you are using up the insulin.
(33:22):
We are also becoming moreinsulin resistance because we're not doing as much exercise.
And of course, if you look at the body asa system, then all these things matter.
And if you want to be healthy andeffective, then it's useful to treat the body and work with the body as it was designed to, to be worked.
(33:44):
For 200, 000 years, we wereegalitarian hunter gatherers.
You know, we did 20 odd thousandsteps per day as a general rule.
And the idea that we had a horrible lifeand isn't quite quite true, once we got over childbirth, we tended to live about the same sort of ages, we just had a more egalitarian, healthier lifestyle.
(34:07):
And as a result, we'revery effective then.
And I think that.
returning to that and helping peopleto break, break free from maybe an addiction to, staring at screens all day and that kind of thing would be, would be more useful, more, more beneficial.
Yeah.
think that's such a brilliant part tobring into the conversation because I almost overlooked it myself in thinking about this, but Our body, we, we focus so much on our brain in the workplace and our brain is a part of our body, but there's so much information coming up from the other parts of our body into our brain that's driving a lot of our focus and attention and decision making and
(34:58):
getting our body moving or tappinginto the intelligence beyond the brain is really only something we can do in a resourced state.
And in an office they're justnot conducive a lot of the time to being in that state.
I mean, yeah, people have donethis for a while, haven't they?
(35:18):
people like Google and, one ofour, one of our clients, Bruntwood, they, they do spend a lot of time creating the environments that are, good for this kind of thing.
it's almost like you've gotan, an outdoor space indoors to some extent, but yeah, it's, You
know, when we talk about things likegut instinct, I can't remember how many brains we've got, but we have more than one brain, in the body.
(35:44):
And as a result of that, again, it goesback to, if you want all those brains firing at the same time or firing in an effective way, working in an effective way, you taking care of your gut biome and exercise does help with that.
you'll have clearer thoughts,you'll be more creative and so on.
so yeah, it's almost like, soundslike a panacea, doesn't it?
But it probably bloody is.
(36:05):
So,
I, but I think it's just soeasy to take for granted.
I think that we, we tend totake our bodies for granted until something goes wrong.
yeah,
and we put all of our emphasison protecting our brain.
or using our brain orfocusing on our brain.
and.
when you go for a walk like you'retalking about, the net walking,
(36:31):
there's way more than yourbrain going on that walk.
yeah.
Your whole self is, isn't it?
That's the thing.
That's the thing.
Your whole self is
deeper ecology of mind, youknow, the ecology of mind idea.
and also the fact that environments, youmake different kind of decisions when you're in different environments, so again, we think decision making comes from us doing the decision making, we can, but also it's impacted by, obviously being with another person, but also the environment affects your decision making.
(37:04):
And, as I said before, thingsalways look brighter when you're looking up, don't they, you know, you can actually do an experiment.
It's impossible to be, it's practicallyimpossible to cry by looking up.
So if you go to see a baby, I mean,obviously ask the mother first, but if you go to a baby and click above its head, the baby will look up and stop crying.
as I said before, things looking up, wefeel better when we're looking upwards.
(37:27):
if you're looking up and you'relooking around yourself, and you're using, you know, great metaphors, like, you can't see your value, you'll be stood on top of your mountain.
You can see everyone else's mountainin value, but you can't see your own.
There's another, great metaphor,but, having that outside perspective, Really works.
yeah, I mean the personal developmentindustry started probably during the Sumerian times when we started journaling.
(37:49):
they used alphabet alphabetical stuff andit's that idea of disassociating from it.
if you are trying to solve a, achallenge and you are actually within the challenging situation than getting outdoors, suddenly you are outsiders.
You are disassociated from that, and youcould see it more effectively as a result.
(38:10):
Yeah, there are so many benefits.
I never heard that before aboutthe crying and looking up.
That's really, maybe,try with adults as well.
Like, you know,
know, get the mother's permission forfirst, but temporarily they will, they will stop crying when they look up.
(38:32):
I mean, they'll start again when theylook down again, but yeah, it just shows.
And, even with kids or nieces and nephews,I have visions of them like looking up as well because they do, well, it's a distraction too, I suppose, isn't it?
But the other thing about likewhat you said about being on the mountain or looking up, to me anyway.
One of the most incredible thingsyou can do is look up at a night sky and, and see the stars and they going on for forever and ever and ever.
(39:00):
I was lucky enough to be inSouth Africa there about.
18 months ago now, nearly, and we were outin the absolute wildest of the middlest of nowhere, and There was very, very little light pollution, a tiny little bit from Cape Town, but other than that, there was nothing at all, and I mean, it was just endless, the stars in the sky, and the planets, and so on, and eye was blown away by, I'm just like a little speck,
(39:31):
Yeah, completely shifts yourperspective, doesn't it?
yeah, it really does, and, and theawe as well, that sense of, Getting outside of your own head, because our own thinking is what causes a lot of the world that we live in anyway.
And being able to see the worlddifferently, you cannot do that inside the confines of your own home.
(39:55):
In that way.
Absolutely.
there's feelings of amazement and wonderand it's kind of euphoric, isn't it?
when you're doing that, in thatsense of all, yeah, it's, it's, and again, it's all stuff to do with being, as you say, outdoors.
It's, it just seems to increaseyour inquisitiveness to ask questions in a different way.
(40:16):
And, you know, following the Stokeidea of spending more time in dialogue, when, when we're stuck in an office type thing, you have like affirmative conversations, which are the divergent conversations, the yes ands, yeah, we can do that, we can do that.
It's driven mainly by the mission.
So you go from divergent to convergent.
Okay, let's make a plan of action.
What do we do?
(40:37):
execute the plan of action.
They even use that kindof word, don't they?
And it's all this military thinkingwhere you, it becomes emergent.
And what they don't do is go, well,actually, what if, which is, and you find that hunter gatherers do this more, they'd sit around and discuss it for longer.
And we call that dialogue.
And, it's that deeper understanding,if you're in an office situation and you're trying to solve a problem, you've probably, wrapped up in the culture of the office.
(41:05):
And so therefore you're going to thinkin a certain way, take it outdoors, and you're allowed to be inquisitive longer, you different perspective because you're outside perspective, but also, you are outside, and it's a bigger picture orientation.
Mm. it just reminded me, I was doinga leadership development course and the group, we sent them outdoors with their camera or their phone and said, take a photo, something outdoors as a metaphor for what's going on now.
(41:36):
And I think there were15 people in the room.
Every single person took a photoof something completely different and it helped to solve something in a way that they wouldn't have thought about it by looking at it from a different perspective.
Yeah, you, touched on, kind ofconstellation, I call it wayfinding, again, like constellation stuff, you know, you can get, often you see shells or rocks and things like that.
(41:59):
Well, you know, arrange thisgroup of rocks or pebbles in a way that, helps you understand it.
But again, because you're outdoors, youtend to be more creative in that respect.
So, yeah.
you can either have a thousand postit notes on a wall or you can take them outdoors and use a bit of a twig here and something there, all the stuff that you need is out there if you want to do that kind of thing.
(42:24):
And that book, wayfindingHave you read that?
I haven't, I don't think, no.
It's absolutely fascinating.
I can't remember the name of the authornow, but it is, I mean, he talks about how if we don't keep up our wayfinding, like if we're always using the GPS, say on our phones or our cars to get us places, we're going to undo our own intelligence that we have spent forever building up now, but he talks about a whole lot more.
(42:54):
And one of the most fascinatingchapters in that book for me was about the psychology of being lost.
Yeah.
and it's very similar to the same kindof psychology we have when we're stuck at a problem at work and we keep, going around the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.
but yeah, a fascinating abook to read actually about getting outdoors, wayfinding.
(43:20):
No, it's a, it's an English guy.
I just can't think of his name right now.
I had the book here because I was goingto talk about it on something, but I think I returned it down to its rightful place.
It's not lost.
part of the other work that I do is,is, teaching wilderness survival, which again is another way of bushcrafting and wilderness survival, but also using natural navigation, things like that.
(43:47):
yeah, it's incredible, how much more.
choice and options you have, theperson that has more choice in a system tends to enjoy more success.
And, you know, by taking peopleoutdoors, by using wayfinding, we tend to have a smaller map of the world.
So when you get outdoors, you're in thisresourceful state, you start to open up your internal map of reality and you're able to explore more, as a result of that.
(44:12):
yeah, good stuff.
Murph, I never got to ask you aboutStoke Philosopher or because I think that or Stoke Pilgrim That's the name of your Instagram account I think but for the purposes of people listening who definitely want to hear more about what you have to say.
Where can people find you?
(44:32):
Just put, Murph Wild Coaching.
You'll probably come up with me onLinkedIn or the website, martinmurphy.
coach and Stoic Pilgrim.
I liked Stoicism because of,it's a basis of CBT sort of thing, but, so that was useful.
And Pilgrims, I worked with the,my old regiment, on the health and wellbeing side of things.
(44:56):
And ex SF guys are called Pilgrimsin a certain branch of the regiment.
So Stoic Pilgrim was like, Oh yeah.
But it's also that idea thatwe're always, we're always moving.
Well, you know, life is a pilgrim,you know, we're here for a short time, we're a process, not a fixed thing.
And yeah, that's the idea of Stoic Pilgrim
(45:20):
It makes us more paradigm flexible.
Yeah.
and I think that, we needto be leavers of potential.
So when we're looking around, what canwe use as a lever of potential that we, how can we lift people up and, getting their mind and body working effectively together is one way of doing that.
(45:41):
Totally.
Thank you so much Murph forreally Like we went on a lot of different paths there today.
Yeah.
I'm lost now.
How do I get back?
Round and round a few of themfrom a different angle, but we definitely went on different paths.
So thanks for exploring your workand the benefits of it with me today.
(46:02):
You're welcome.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
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(46:24):
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
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(00:23):
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(00:51):
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(01:15):
Well, today I am delighted to welcomeMartin Murph Murphy to Life Beyond the Numbers, and I am going to call you Murph.
Hello,
very welcome.
Now, Murph, I came across, apost on LinkedIn that spurned me to get in touch with you.
(01:38):
And it was something that JohnShinnick, who had been on this podcast quite some time ago, episode 42.
reposted and it was about wild coachingand he mentioned how he spent time in the hills with you and he always comes back with something added.
Okay.
(01:58):
And I just thought that wassuch a lovely jumping off point.
So maybe you talk to me a littlebit about Walking and wild coaching.
Hmm.
right.
Okay.
Well, he's a bit of a legend,John Shinnick, anyway, isn't he?
So, in the Manchester community.
yeah, well, coaching, it's, there'sa lot more of it going on, I think, it seems to be the in thing.
(02:19):
Um, I started a long time ago doingthis, finding the benefit of being outdoors, but basically it's about promoting wisdom and wellbeing by walking and talking in nature.
it started for me kind of probablyabout 20 years ago, I kind of finished with the middle of the security world.
I got bored of that.
(02:40):
And I went to university, andgot a degree in environmental studies and outdoor pursuit.
I thought I'd probably be able togo and join Greenpeace or something like that and get on those boats and do all that exciting stuff.
Anyway, they told me to sod off basically.
So, so I thought, what can I do?
And, whilst I was waiting, I starteddoing some personal training and it tended to be business owners.
(03:01):
And, as I learned NLP and, coachingand other forms of psychology, mainly to sort my own problems out from a dysfunctional childhood.
But, yeah, I started chatting topeople, and what they were finding more beneficial wasn't me kind of beating them up and down, football fields, trying to get them fit.
They actually liked it when we wentfor a walk around the golf course, it was around Mottram Hall at the time.
(03:25):
And.
That, that got me thinking, well,actually, yeah, there's something in this, this idea that you take people outdoors and as a result of that, it frees up some minds,
I talk a lot about flow states, you know,this flow states are these, these optimal states that you get into, you feel kind of relaxed, but it's really focused, you're liberated, you kind of lose yourself
(03:54):
And it's actually down to a thingcalled hypotransient frontalis, but you lose track of time.
You lose yourself inwhatever you're doing.
you have this optimal gripon reality and yourself.
So you seem just to be able to findthe right answers at the right time.
And It leads to more deeper wisdom,if you like, because it's kind of like an extended aha moment, and this is all caused by the fact that you're actually doing something.
(04:17):
we're designed to move.
We should be doing about 25 paces daily.
That was a hunter gatherer lifestyle.
And, we actually thinkbetter when we're moving.
It actually, there's loads ofstudies coming out now, about increasing brain endurance.
So if you actually do somephysical exercise and you think about a challenge, it actually builds a better brain resilience.
(04:39):
so the walking gets you into, resourceful.
Date.
You're outdoors.
I mean, it's hidden in our language.
We tend to look down atphones and things like that.
So it's like downright sad is where wetend to look and that's how we feel.
if things are brighter, if things arelooking up brighter, we know that, quite a lot of people who are creative, for instance, might be promoted and put in a corner office and they wonder why they can't create these more creative visuals, things, ideas, because they're stuck in a corner office.
(05:09):
So yeah, you take people outdoors.
they get into a resourceful state,you're able to explore more.
you can use nature.
I call it wayfinding, just like you use acompass and things like that, so you can use, the path you're on as a metaphor.
And, because you're outdoors,you can stay inquisitive longer.
Because you're outdoors, it helps youshift from left brain into right brain.
(05:34):
Dr. McGilchrist has revisited this ideaof left and right, the asymmetrical brain.
He says that the actual corpuscallosum acts As an inhibitor so if you're stuck in one side the left tends to be very competitive and controlling and it lacks certainty.
(05:54):
So you jump to conclusions, a bitquicker, whereas when we're doing this, you're able to stay inquisitive longer.
And, so there's this liberation thenyou're hoping to free them from fixed thinking or, you know, mental sclerosis, I suppose, fixed ideas and things like that.
And it just increases the ecology of mind.
(06:15):
Most decision making models, whetherit be, plan, do, check, adapt, OODA loops, and even the GROW model is goal.
What's the goal?
What's the reality?
Divergent.
Which option are you goingto choose the way forward?
(06:35):
It's all divergent, convergentand emergent, and they all follow that pathway.
OODA loop just goes faster.
So you go into on this fixedthinking way, competitive.
quicker.
and because we want to be in this, theleft brain and Dr. E. McGilchrist, says that we've created this left brain world, capitalism, all that sort of thing.
(06:58):
So yeah, if you can get people outof it, you can't do it straight away.
I noticed this working with people atthe fire service and other clients, leaders who were trying to talk about wellbeing, they would, On one to ones, they'd say, so how are you doing?
How do you feel?
Well, I feel fine, because obviouslyno one likes talking about that.
so they just go straight backto, right, so okay, let's have a look at your numbers.
(07:19):
And the reason for that, of course, isthe fact that it's actually difficult.
It takes time.
You've got to build rapport up for onething, get into a resourceful state, but it takes time because the corpus callosum, once we're in one side, it stays there.
And really what we're trying todo is, develop this other side, which is more the right side.
And as a result of that, it's likeGregory Bateson's idea of ecology of mind.
(07:43):
you start seeing us thinking as anecosystem and, we can be more coherent and that's what we're looking for.
So like the pair of pathetics, I thinkthey're called the, the idea of the Lyceum and Aristotle started this.
He used to take his.
his students outdoors andtalking, walking, talking.
So it's not a new idea.
It's been around for centuriesand, yeah, it just works.
(08:07):
It just works.
And I think instinctively, Murph, weknow that because oftentimes somebody will say, I need to go outside to clear my head or I'm going to go for a walk and figure this out.
So that movement and that outdoors.
Is it's in us and sometimes thewisdom just kind of takes over and says, that's what you need.
(08:30):
Does it surprise people though?
Because it sounds like a luxury when,when I need to be focused on the numbers or whatever it might be in a workplace.
And then suddenly I meet Murph and hesays, come on, we're going for a walk
well,
there's a few things there.
(08:50):
If you're in a flow state, so likeMcKinsey, you've done, work on this and they've realized that executives are five times more affected.
So you just can't be in aflow state all the time.
So that's one thing.
the act of walking, actuallyacts a bit like EMDR.
It's, it's like this bilateralmovement encourages bilateral thinking.
so as a result of that, you bring moreof your brain to the, If you like the more of yourself to the problem, if you were facing a problem or understanding a problem, and because you're in a flow state, when you do come to look at the numbers, you'll probably be more spot on your people, probably more effective as a result of that.
(09:29):
yeah.
it's, it's like a reset, isn't it?
you're resetting your brain.
One of the things about flows is fullstates to flow and what people do.
You might have come across thisidea where you've had a really good day and you understand this flow state 'cause you, oh yeah.
You've just had this optimalgrip, as I say, and you've achieved lots off your to do list.
(09:50):
And then you come in the next day andgo, or you think to yourself, right, I'm going to have another good day like that.
You do exactly the same thing, do your todo list, and you just can't get into it.
And the reason for that isbecause, you are suffering from what's known as a flow hangover.
And it's partly due to glutamate, whichis one of the neurotransmitters in the brain that Allows for focused thinking and so it would make you better with the numbers and the old glutamate still stuck in your brain cells and you need to flush it out and the way to do it is I sleep well, but also exercise.
(10:23):
So it's kind of like an active recovery.
So it comes down to theidea of, sharpening the axe.
It's, you need to, you will be moreeffective if you're able to have little breaks and to do some active recovery.
completely.
And I have never heard thatterm flow hangover before.
And it puts to mind, it'snot the circadian rhythm, but it's one of those rhythms.
(10:48):
And I started to work likethat for quite a while.
I was writing a book and doing90 to 120 minutes of real focus work, and then a 20 minute active recovery, which generally involved going out, stay outstairs, outside.
And, It was fascinating how I could getright back into that state then again.
(11:15):
as long as it was active recovery, Ithink that's the difference, isn't it?
And, whether if you're scrolling on yourphone or watching TV, that's just passive.
And I think a lot of the times We thinkthat to relax, we need to be sitting down or doing something passive.
When actually the R& R, the relaxationand recovery, having an activity is much better for us, isn't it?
(11:44):
Yes, funnily enough, before the pandemicI was over in the Middle East, we were actually teaching intelligence agents, about leadership, and they would, they had, I can't really tell you where it is and all that sort of thing, but it's, it was, It consisted of us giving lectures, you know, 40 minute lectures in a big hall all together.
(12:05):
And then we would walk thestudents to various other rooms.
And one of the, hierarchy thought, well,can we not just condense this and just keep them in the room for eight hours?
It takes everything.
And I explained to them, well,no, actually walking the largest muscles in the body are the gluteus maximus, the leg muscles.
Backside muscles, when you're walking,you're flushing and, getting the brain, getting the blood pumping round.
(12:31):
And as a result of that, this activerecovery means that when they go to have the smaller group discussions about the theory that you've just been talking about, they'll be more effective in that state.
So, yeah.
And they were walking and talkingas they were going as well.
So, yeah.
it's a much.
more coherent way of approaching thinking,if you like, is to be able to move.
(12:56):
It is.
And, and yet, we don't do it enough.
Whoa, gosh, watch out, Icould get on my soapbox here.
well, of course not now, because,industrial revolution thinking is that, we've tried to make people, well, I haven't, but, the whole idea behind, the Industrial Revolution was to, create technology.
(13:21):
technology is always a toolto acquire power of a resource and relate, replace people.
So the plough, took over fromlike 10 jobs and then the tractor, a hundred jobs and that, so on.
And so That's been increased all the time.
but the thing is now we've got tothe point where we can be more human.
In fact, we need to get back to beingmore human because we don't need widgets anymore, industry doesn't need widgets.
(13:47):
It needs humans.
we've got all the technology we want.
Now we can replace asmany humans as we want.
So now we're going to findother ways to be more human,
I think the thing that I say thatcapitalism got wrong is the fact that, capitalism is all about competition.
but it's ideas that compete,whereas people should collaborate and collaboration was our, evolutionary advantage.
(14:12):
And what makes us better atthinking is to move and think at the same time, most of the time,
to the time.
And that's a lovely segue actually tothe rest of that post that I talked about at the beginning that John Shinnick reposted because you said something that's very, very Dear to my thinking as well.
(14:33):
And that was that future sustainablesuccess depends on human intelligence as much as artificial intelligence.
And are we in fear of throwingthe baby or human nature out with the digital bathwater?
And I won't say it's somethingthat keeps me up at night, but it certainly is one of those things that.
(14:54):
That I have a big focus on becausethat human intelligence, we haven't even touched on it here.
Almost.
we've kind of ventured a little bit intoit, but we're capable of so much more.
And I listened to a podcast episodethat you talked about collective intelligence, and that's something that we will never get unless we collaborate.
(15:17):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
as we find with AI and, and robotics,I mean, AI just de skills us and just takes away our intelligence.
I wrote a book, about five, sevenyears ago now, I think it is.
And I said, Much like the special forcesmodel, but also how hunter gatherers operate and also people like Steve Jobs did the same thing, which was to create these small teams at the liminal edges who were able to collaborate at a higher level and have more agency and autonomy, mutual accountability, alignment to the mission and purpose.
(15:49):
And in doing so they became highlyeffective, but we always call them special project teams or special forces or, or whatever you want to call it, They always thought that was special, but actually no, that's just how humans are supposed to operate.
and we lost that for a whilewith the industrial revolution and factory farming and factory everything else, and factory humans.
(16:10):
if you're being dis skilled becauseyou're just relying more and more on technology, you're going to find yourself at some point out of work.
And also, what have you got left?
Well, the only thing, go backto our revolutionary advantage, which was collaboration.
And that's a really interestingpoint about this special, special projects and the special ops and special forces and so on.
(16:35):
cause I heard somebody talking aboutthis recently in relation to athletes, because athletes, I guess, are people that normal people, day to day people understand going to flow state, or the zone or whatever they call it, and how.
All of them, well, somebody wrote abook and the people that he spoke to had all had extraordinary experiences in this flow state by accessing their own intelligence in a way that they weren't aware of before that and were aware of.
(17:11):
Unhappy, or unwilling to talk about it,because it wasn't something that was talked about, so it was seen as special,
When actually, that could be the ordinary,if, if more of us were able to access that part of us, because it's there for us all.
yeah.
Absolutely.
the health benefits are massivefrom this, this kind of thinking.
(17:35):
I mean, everyone knows that,people that do run and do keep fit, they feel great afterwards.
you know, they think it's, Downto endorphins, the run is high, but it's actually endorphins is just, almost like a painkiller.
it doesn't pass a blood brain barrier.
What it is, is a substance calledanandamide, which comes from the Sanskrit word meaning bliss, the bliss molecule, but basically it attaches to the THC receptors in your brain and, allows the brain to it disparate parts tend to connect more so, by going for a walk there's loads of different things that are released and lots that's going on.
(18:13):
But that's one of the major ones andthat's where the bliss idea comes from.
But it also it's alsoconnecting your brain.
I mean, basically, it's like smoking.
You're not smoking pot, but it'sthe brain's version of that.
And it's administeredin just the right way.
just the right time.
Yeah.
And if you think about how farwe've come and how creative and,
(18:36):
when great things are inventedor thought of or new ideas come out, it's always a collaboration.
the idea of a lone genius.
it's probably overemphasized actuallyeven Einstein had to have a chat with someone else while start walking before their ideas came, so yeah, we people that experience flow states report having more meaningful lives as a result of it.
(19:01):
So.
Yeah, cool.
So that would then, if you have ameaningful life, it means that you'll probably produce a substance called GABA, gamma amyl butyric acid, which just acts on the parasympathetic nervous system.
So yeah, you go out for a walk in thehills, having a great chat with someone, bouncing ideas around, you're allowed to be inquisitive longer, more coherent thinking, joined up thinking, if you like, and you feel great afterwards.
(19:29):
Thanks.
With bags of ideas.
You do, you do, and The otherthing about it is it's free to go outside, I think it's
Well, not if you gowalking with me, but yeah.
That's different, you're paying for theconversation there, not the walk as such.
(19:51):
But, but nature being such a greatteacher and being so available to us and resourcing us is something that's free.
I often think that we undervaluethings like that because
(20:12):
Because we're not paying forit as such, we might not see that it can bring us something.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think most people are, or maybeit's just the circle I'm in.
because, you know, we dothis, I go net walking, model.
I guide, I'm a mountain leader.
(20:32):
So I guide, networking for acompany called in Manchester.
And, Yeah, funnily enough, the, the freshwalk has come at the end of the month.
It's usually a hard walkat the end of the month.
And the kind of research that MichaelDePalo had done on that was the fact that people at first came for the networking, but then came, then it became a, a community and actually it was the community aspect that they came for.
(21:03):
and you just hear theconversations that go on.
It's just amazing, you know?
Everyone's in this flow state.
It's, a lot of people say thatit's, like a reset, walking out in nature is a reset for the brain.
And if they've had a hard month,but, but it's always the last Fridays and the month when the community network goes out, it's great.
(21:24):
They absolutely love it.
But similarly, when you, we have a lot of.
clients now, who are, sorry aboutthe pinging in the background, my wife's phone, I forgot it was in here.
Um, so yeah, A lot of our clients arefinding, we take professional services firms out, and what they're doing and they're finding that, they might've taken them to the races or shopping or whatever, and, and just normal networking, events, but they're actually finding that people are reporting afterwards.
(21:55):
No, it's the time wewent walking with you.
Even.
If it was raining, because you've had thisshared experience, and it's about that, the fact that, you have a shared novel experience together, you've, you've done something together, and you've had a very powerful experience that's been backed up because you've been in this flow state, and you're not waking up with a hangover.
(22:15):
in the alcoholic type of way.
So, yeah, they're finding that thatof all the things that they do, going out walking in the hills with clients is much the best way to do it.
If I'm going to meet apotential client, I don't.
Let's just meet somewhere for a coffee.
I say, well, let's get out on the hill.
And you'll benefit, you'll see foryourself, how it could benefit you when you have a chat outdoors and that has a more bonding effect because obviously walking in nature also releases oxytocin, which, it's known as cuddle, neurotransmitter or whatever, but it, what it actually does is bond people.
(22:52):
and so, yeah, when you're out, it's,it's a more memorable, memorable meeting and more meaningful and more impactful.
So, yeah.
Aren't we all doing it?
Yeah.
I know.
I did think about having thisconversation while walking outdoors, but I think it would have just been too distracting when we weren't together.
(23:13):
And because I have done one podcastrecording outdoors, actually, and it was just, it's just, I mean, it's just magical, isn't it?
To be outdoors anyway.
And, I grew up beside the sea and, and forme, you can solve everything by walking by the sea, even alone, and I wondered about that actually, as you're talking
(23:36):
about being outdoors and the silence.
Because there's a different soundwhen you get away from traffic.
The quality of the sound and thesilence is very, very different.
So I wonder, does thatplay a role as well, Murph?
yeah, I would say so.
(23:57):
if you think about traffic,it's quite a stressful thing going on in the background.
there's a few things going on here.
well, for one thing that, when you getinto flow states, you shift away from hypotransient frontalis it's called, but it's like the, default mode network, a part of the brain, that closes off.
(24:18):
And so you switch from ruminatingto reflecting it's you're not ruminating on the past so much.
so that's one thing
I think when you're outdoors as well.
There's not a lot of research on this,but, since the industrial revolution, well, agrarian revolution, we've kind of gone backwards in our culture.
(24:38):
So we've, creative hierarchiesand things like that.
Well, it's actually quite stressful to bein a hierarchy unless you're the leader.
If you're the leader, you'll gointo dominance behavior system.
It's another part of the brain, but theopposite of that for the majority of people is involuntary defeats system.
When we take teams out on, in the hills.
you lose that.
(24:59):
it's more egalitarian.
and as a result of that,people find that, healthy.
And then of course, if you are walkingin trees, for instance, I know they have like the forest bathing in Japan and they put it down to certain, chemicals in the air, from pines and things like that, but also, trees produce a lot more oxygen.
You actually are taking an oxygen bathby going through woodland, for instance.
(25:22):
So yeah, There's a lot to it, butthere's various reasons why going away from traffic and going outdoors is going to be more beneficial.
Better oxygen.
You're going to flush thesystem out a lot quicker.
Your, glutamate's being refreshed.
(25:42):
All these neurotransmittershave been refreshed.
and it's more egalitarian when you gooutdoors, you're walking side by side.
if you look at Rogerian, CarlRogers's, person centered counseling, I think it was six core, things about, to be in a therapeutic relationship and how you should be.
But three of them, three coreskills are the same thing that you get from walking side by side.
(26:04):
you're not a therapist,you're just being authentic.
And the fact that you're doingthis walking and also, as I said before, bilateral thinking.
These are like three core conditions forfor a therapeutic thing, acceptance, which you get when you're outdoors, whereas you tend to be less accepting when you're in a culture or a system that's hierarchical.
(26:25):
So, yeah,
And even metaphorically, I mean, it's notmetaphorically because you are outdoors, but you've got the expanse, when you're in an office or a room, you are confined inside in the borders and, and the color, I mean, our offices tend to be horrible.
Some of them without windows all ofthat is having an impact on how our brain is processing and we're seated.
(26:51):
And like we said at thebeginning, we started this off by, the movement and even.
a very simple movement is often likeif you're stuck at something, the worst thing you can do is stay sitting there trying to figure it out because the minute you move, even if you just go down the stairs and up again, you've shifted what your brain is paying attention to.
(27:14):
There's a huge case or there's so manyreasons why we should be going outside.
I hate to use the word should,but you know what I mean in the context of the conversation.
absolutely.
I don't, I don't know whatmore I can, can say related.
(27:35):
know if there was aquestion in there anyway.
Yeah, I don't know what more I can say to,as I say, there's a raft of transmitters.
It's, it'll increase yourlongevity anyway, so you'll be more effective for longer.
there's the whole, do you wanta lifespan or a health span?
Yeah, absolutely.
we want a longer health span,getting outdoors and talking, your ideas are better, because you're creatively collaborative.
(27:59):
It's using the right side ofthe brain more, which sees things in more holistic ways.
You, you're getting away from the stressof being in a hierarchical system.
As we know, when you're stressed,one of the first things that happens is that your brain closes down And you've got this level of anxiety.
So even if you're in a hierarchicalsystem in the, in, because that's traditionally what a lot of firms have always been like, you know, special forces tend to shun that kind of thing.
(28:26):
But when you go out outdoors, yougive people a break from that.
And it means that if you takea team out, you can be more.
You come across more authenticallybecause you're outdoors, if you walk into an office, you'll be triggered and anchored into a certain mode of thinking, the involuntary defeat system might be that you just, you don't want to offer suggestions if you're a team member, because you don't want to get it wrong.
(28:54):
you're scared of being madea fool of whereas you go outdoors, it's more egalitarian.
it levels the playing field andeveryone's can contribute better.
And they're also being, they're enjoyingthemselves while they're doing it.
even the days when you've had a reallywet muck, what I call a muck and mayhem kind of day sort of thing, at the end of it, they're like, do you remember that time when we went and did that?
(29:16):
people start panicking about thefact that it's raining, whatever.
It's amazing how more impactfulthat is because you've had the shared experience together.
I mean, you know, the Fresh Walkers,they've, They talk about the worst days more than they do the good days.
would you remember that time?
And then Mike had that like thousandyard stare at the pub afterwards.
Something, it's, I'm sold.
(29:36):
What about you?
Well, I have the benefit, I suppose,of having grown up in the countryside.
And I do think that makes you.
Well, from my own perspective,just being outside and going outdoors and going for a walk.
It was just in us, I cycled toschool in all weathers for my whole way through secondary school.
I was back in Galway recently whereI went to university and we were just talking about how you never left.
(30:01):
your digs without your rain gear,because it was always raining.
and that's, like you said, we rememberedhaving to lift our bikes up over a hill, kind of, up onto a bridge in the rain pouring against you, but you did it.
And I'm a firm believer in going outside.
I, what, I suppose whatI, maybe where I'm less.
(30:25):
I won't say convinced because that's notthe case is where there's a discrepancy or where maybe more reconciliation needs to take place is, is perhaps bringing some of my work outside.
and it's really interesting.
I've talked to quite a fewpeople who work outdoors and.
Like you're doing yourself, Murph, and Ithink perhaps it's something that I need to look at a little bit more in my own work as well because even as you were talking there about going into an office and imagining the same roles that you're in or afraid to say anything, often people are trying to bring about change, right?
(31:03):
But they won't even go outsideand have a walk outdoors.
They won't even change the scene becausethat's literally what you're doing.
And like you said, itopens up so much more.
And I wonder how much the from homeof an office environment impacts it.
(31:27):
you're sorry.
I thought you were frozen.
no, I was listening intently.
That's why I was justso working from home.
Well, funnily enough.
Yeah.
I don't know whether this relates towhat you're alluding to is, is the problem with working from home and the problem that younger people have who have grown up as digital natives, perhaps, is the fact that they're
(32:04):
gosh we're going into a whole new thinghere but One of the challenges that we've got is with young people, and I know this is a generalization because obviously some are super athletes but there seems to be a lack of resilience.
In the younger, gosh, I'm going toget in trouble, younger generation, can I say that without getting shot?
(32:25):
I don't know, but,
I think life is easier in one way.
yeah, so,
less hardship.
yeah, so there's Yeah,there's good stress and bad
Yes.
And, the, the good stress iswhen you've, it's actually down to dopamine actually, isn't it?
So, dopamine, old technology anddigital stuff is, is, gives us a, a boost of dopamine, but what happens is that, you get the dopamine and, Then as it goes, you get another, every time you scroll or something like that, you get in this dopamine.
(32:58):
So eventually the dopaminestops working so much.
there's that side of it.
So, as a result of that,people are feeling.
less happy because they'rebecoming resistant to dopamine.
So that's one thing.
there's also the other thing is that,you know, the good thing about walking is that you are using up the insulin.
(33:22):
We are also becoming moreinsulin resistance because we're not doing as much exercise.
And of course, if you look at the body asa system, then all these things matter.
And if you want to be healthy andeffective, then it's useful to treat the body and work with the body as it was designed to, to be worked.
(33:44):
For 200, 000 years, we wereegalitarian hunter gatherers.
You know, we did 20 odd thousandsteps per day as a general rule.
And the idea that we had a horrible lifeand isn't quite quite true, once we got over childbirth, we tended to live about the same sort of ages, we just had a more egalitarian, healthier lifestyle.
(34:07):
And as a result, we'revery effective then.
And I think that.
returning to that and helping peopleto break, break free from maybe an addiction to, staring at screens all day and that kind of thing would be, would be more useful, more, more beneficial.
Yeah.
think that's such a brilliant part tobring into the conversation because I almost overlooked it myself in thinking about this, but Our body, we, we focus so much on our brain in the workplace and our brain is a part of our body, but there's so much information coming up from the other parts of our body into our brain that's driving a lot of our focus and attention and decision making and
(34:58):
getting our body moving or tappinginto the intelligence beyond the brain is really only something we can do in a resourced state.
And in an office they're justnot conducive a lot of the time to being in that state.
I mean, yeah, people have donethis for a while, haven't they?
(35:18):
people like Google and, one ofour, one of our clients, Bruntwood, they, they do spend a lot of time creating the environments that are, good for this kind of thing.
it's almost like you've gotan, an outdoor space indoors to some extent, but yeah, it's, You
know, when we talk about things likegut instinct, I can't remember how many brains we've got, but we have more than one brain, in the body.
(35:44):
And as a result of that, again, it goesback to, if you want all those brains firing at the same time or firing in an effective way, working in an effective way, you taking care of your gut biome and exercise does help with that.
you'll have clearer thoughts,you'll be more creative and so on.
so yeah, it's almost like, soundslike a panacea, doesn't it?
But it probably bloody is.
(36:05):
So,
I, but I think it's just soeasy to take for granted.
I think that we, we tend totake our bodies for granted until something goes wrong.
yeah,
and we put all of our emphasison protecting our brain.
or using our brain orfocusing on our brain.
and.
when you go for a walk like you'retalking about, the net walking,
(36:31):
there's way more than yourbrain going on that walk.
yeah.
Your whole self is, isn't it?
That's the thing.
That's the thing.
Your whole self is
deeper ecology of mind, youknow, the ecology of mind idea.
and also the fact that environments, youmake different kind of decisions when you're in different environments, so again, we think decision making comes from us doing the decision making, we can, but also it's impacted by, obviously being with another person, but also the environment affects your decision making.
(37:04):
And, as I said before, thingsalways look brighter when you're looking up, don't they, you know, you can actually do an experiment.
It's impossible to be, it's practicallyimpossible to cry by looking up.
So if you go to see a baby, I mean,obviously ask the mother first, but if you go to a baby and click above its head, the baby will look up and stop crying.
as I said before, things looking up, wefeel better when we're looking upwards.
(37:27):
if you're looking up and you'relooking around yourself, and you're using, you know, great metaphors, like, you can't see your value, you'll be stood on top of your mountain.
You can see everyone else's mountainin value, but you can't see your own.
There's another, great metaphor,but, having that outside perspective, Really works.
yeah, I mean the personal developmentindustry started probably during the Sumerian times when we started journaling.
(37:49):
they used alphabet alphabetical stuff andit's that idea of disassociating from it.
if you are trying to solve a, achallenge and you are actually within the challenging situation than getting outdoors, suddenly you are outsiders.
You are disassociated from that, and youcould see it more effectively as a result.
(38:10):
Yeah, there are so many benefits.
I never heard that before aboutthe crying and looking up.
That's really, maybe,try with adults as well.
Like, you know,
know, get the mother's permission forfirst, but temporarily they will, they will stop crying when they look up.
(38:32):
I mean, they'll start again when theylook down again, but yeah, it just shows.
And, even with kids or nieces and nephews,I have visions of them like looking up as well because they do, well, it's a distraction too, I suppose, isn't it?
But the other thing about likewhat you said about being on the mountain or looking up, to me anyway.
One of the most incredible thingsyou can do is look up at a night sky and, and see the stars and they going on for forever and ever and ever.
(39:00):
I was lucky enough to be inSouth Africa there about.
18 months ago now, nearly, and we were outin the absolute wildest of the middlest of nowhere, and There was very, very little light pollution, a tiny little bit from Cape Town, but other than that, there was nothing at all, and I mean, it was just endless, the stars in the sky, and the planets, and so on, and eye was blown away by, I'm just like a little speck,
(39:31):
Yeah, completely shifts yourperspective, doesn't it?
yeah, it really does, and, and theawe as well, that sense of, Getting outside of your own head, because our own thinking is what causes a lot of the world that we live in anyway.
And being able to see the worlddifferently, you cannot do that inside the confines of your own home.
(39:55):
In that way.
Absolutely.
there's feelings of amazement and wonderand it's kind of euphoric, isn't it?
when you're doing that, in thatsense of all, yeah, it's, it's, and again, it's all stuff to do with being, as you say, outdoors.
It's, it just seems to increaseyour inquisitiveness to ask questions in a different way.
(40:16):
And, you know, following the Stokeidea of spending more time in dialogue, when, when we're stuck in an office type thing, you have like affirmative conversations, which are the divergent conversations, the yes ands, yeah, we can do that, we can do that.
It's driven mainly by the mission.
So you go from divergent to convergent.
Okay, let's make a plan of action.
What do we do?
(40:37):
execute the plan of action.
They even use that kindof word, don't they?
And it's all this military thinkingwhere you, it becomes emergent.
And what they don't do is go, well,actually, what if, which is, and you find that hunter gatherers do this more, they'd sit around and discuss it for longer.
And we call that dialogue.
And, it's that deeper understanding,if you're in an office situation and you're trying to solve a problem, you've probably, wrapped up in the culture of the office.
(41:05):
And so therefore you're going to thinkin a certain way, take it outdoors, and you're allowed to be inquisitive longer, you different perspective because you're outside perspective, but also, you are outside, and it's a bigger picture orientation.
Mm. it just reminded me, I was doinga leadership development course and the group, we sent them outdoors with their camera or their phone and said, take a photo, something outdoors as a metaphor for what's going on now.
(41:36):
And I think there were15 people in the room.
Every single person took a photoof something completely different and it helped to solve something in a way that they wouldn't have thought about it by looking at it from a different perspective.
Yeah, you, touched on, kind ofconstellation, I call it wayfinding, again, like constellation stuff, you know, you can get, often you see shells or rocks and things like that.
(41:59):
Well, you know, arrange thisgroup of rocks or pebbles in a way that, helps you understand it.
But again, because you're outdoors, youtend to be more creative in that respect.
So, yeah.
you can either have a thousand postit notes on a wall or you can take them outdoors and use a bit of a twig here and something there, all the stuff that you need is out there if you want to do that kind of thing.
(42:24):
And that book, wayfindingHave you read that?
I haven't, I don't think, no.
It's absolutely fascinating.
I can't remember the name of the authornow, but it is, I mean, he talks about how if we don't keep up our wayfinding, like if we're always using the GPS, say on our phones or our cars to get us places, we're going to undo our own intelligence that we have spent forever building up now, but he talks about a whole lot more.
(42:54):
And one of the most fascinatingchapters in that book for me was about the psychology of being lost.
Yeah.
and it's very similar to the same kindof psychology we have when we're stuck at a problem at work and we keep, going around the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.
but yeah, a fascinating abook to read actually about getting outdoors, wayfinding.
(43:20):
No, it's a, it's an English guy.
I just can't think of his name right now.
I had the book here because I was goingto talk about it on something, but I think I returned it down to its rightful place.
It's not lost.
part of the other work that I do is,is, teaching wilderness survival, which again is another way of bushcrafting and wilderness survival, but also using natural navigation, things like that.
(43:47):
yeah, it's incredible, how much more.
choice and options you have, theperson that has more choice in a system tends to enjoy more success.
And, you know, by taking peopleoutdoors, by using wayfinding, we tend to have a smaller map of the world.
So when you get outdoors, you're in thisresourceful state, you start to open up your internal map of reality and you're able to explore more, as a result of that.
(44:12):
yeah, good stuff.
Murph, I never got to ask you aboutStoke Philosopher or because I think that or Stoke Pilgrim That's the name of your Instagram account I think but for the purposes of people listening who definitely want to hear more about what you have to say.
Where can people find you?
(44:32):
Just put, Murph Wild Coaching.
You'll probably come up with me onLinkedIn or the website, martinmurphy.
coach and Stoic Pilgrim.
I liked Stoicism because of,it's a basis of CBT sort of thing, but, so that was useful.
And Pilgrims, I worked with the,my old regiment, on the health and wellbeing side of things.
(44:56):
And ex SF guys are called Pilgrimsin a certain branch of the regiment.
So Stoic Pilgrim was like, Oh yeah.
But it's also that idea thatwe're always, we're always moving.
Well, you know, life is a pilgrim,you know, we're here for a short time, we're a process, not a fixed thing.
And yeah, that's the idea of Stoic Pilgrim
(45:20):
It makes us more paradigm flexible.
Yeah.
and I think that, we needto be leavers of potential.
So when we're looking around, what canwe use as a lever of potential that we, how can we lift people up and, getting their mind and body working effectively together is one way of doing that.
(45:41):
Totally.
Thank you so much Murph forreally Like we went on a lot of different paths there today.
Yeah.
I'm lost now.
How do I get back?
Round and round a few of themfrom a different angle, but we definitely went on different paths.
So thanks for exploring your workand the benefits of it with me today.
(46:02):
You're welcome.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
(46:24):
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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