February 1, 2025 • 56 mins
"...because we're all imperfect if we have any kind of power, including even just like having a strong personality, that we can be doing things that we don’t even realise are intimidating or shutting down other people." David Lee
In this episode, I am joined by Dr. Susanne Evans and David Lee for one of our irregular but always insightful conversations. Today, we dive into the topic of bad behaviour in our workplaces — what it looks like, why it happens and what we can do about it. We include some real-life stories shared with us by others. We touch on the corrosive effects of power and the importance of bringing attention to unacceptable conduct when we see it. We ask the question: what if we are the ones that happen to be behaving questionably .... we are all imperfect after all. We cover the importance of self-awareness and self-reflection.
Dr Susanne Evans is an organisation change consultant, trainer, coach and researcher on a mission to change the way that transformations are managed in organisations. She founded Feldspar Consulting in 2007 to help her clients lead change in a more human, effective way. As well as writing and speaking about organisation change, Susanne hosts open storytelling workshops, supporting organisations and individuals in writing a compelling story for themselves, and she is the host of the popular ChangeStories podcast.
David Lee is a coach, consultant, workshop facilitator, keynote speaker, and author, who loves creating a win/win/win relationship between people and the organizations they work for. He helps leaders and leadership teams learn how to become "people whisperers", and by doing so, increase their ability to make their organization THE choice for "A List Talent" and inspire the best in their people.
Resources Mentioned
The No Asshole Rule – Robert Sutton
Think Again – Adam Grant
Don't Bite the Hook – Pema Chödrön
The Jerk's Guide to Happiness - Alyn Mitlyng
Leading Beyond the Numbers - Susan Ni Chriodain
Episode 64 Being Yourself with Eamon Fitzgerald
Episode 69 What Works for You with Alyn Mitlyng
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today the three ofus are back together again.
There's Dr. Susanne Evans,David Lee, and myself.
And this is a fairly irregular gettogether, but it's always worth it.
And today we are going to betalking about bad behaviours in the workplace and what we can do
(01:44):
And on LinkedIn, we did a call out askingfor some stories, and I know we gathered some, and of course we have plenty of our own in case we run out of those So who's going to kick us off with a story?
Do you want me to start?
Because I seem to know lots of peoplewho've had lots of bad behaviors at work, not them, the stuff that's happened to them at work.
(02:06):
So what I will say is I got lots ofdirect messages on LinkedIn with stories.
But what I found interesting is thebulk of people who sent them to me wanted to remain anonymous, but also wanted the story to be anonymous, which I think is interesting.
in itself.
That tells us something, doesn't it?
About how this sort ofbehavior can impact on people.
(02:29):
So I'll give you a few examplesplucked out at random from, from some of these stories, and hopefully they will be general enough so that I'm not identifying the organization, but interesting nevertheless.
So, so the first one that somebodytold me was about a senior person in an organization that they worked in who was very derogatory to less senior members of staff.
(02:53):
So calling them names likejunior, and things like that, which in itself is pretty bad.
But also this person threw foodat employees whilst they were speaking to their customers.
so whilst this senior person wasspeaking to their, to their employees, they would punctuate their points by throwing biscuits at the person's head while they were speaking.
(03:17):
let's unpick that one first, Cherie,because that's, I've chosen that one first because it's so terrible that I thought that's, that's probably one of the worst things I've ever heard.
I don't know what, I mean,it's unbelievable, isn't it?
so here's what comes up.
This is sort of asking, maybeit's just a rhetorical question.
(03:39):
but it'd be interesting tohear our different theories.
It's like, what would makesomebody think that was acceptable
Yeah.
And, and the question that I thoughtwhen I read the story, but was exactly that, but also how does this person behave outside of the workplace?
So are they like this at homeor is this something different?
(04:02):
Because if this was at home, youwould have real questions about this person and their behavior and it's, it's violence, it's abuse, isn't it?
And so when they're in the workplace.
Is that the same?
Are they the same athome or in the workplace?
Or is this something different?
And if it's something different, exactlyas you said, David, what happens to somebody that they think this is okay?
(04:28):
I don't know the answer because I, I mean,it would never occur to me to behave like that, but clearly in this person's mind, this was a way to behave in the workplace.
That
besides kind of the obviousthat they haven't been called out or held accountable.
one of the things that just popped intomy mind that I found so fascinating have either of you read Any of Bob Sutton's books or listen to him speak.
(04:55):
So Robert Sutton goes by Bob.
He's a Stanford professor.
he was the author of excuse the language,the book called the no asshole rule.
and I, so back in theearly two thousands, he.
Maybe he still does.
he had a blog where he wouldwrite about research on the corrosive effects of power.
(05:23):
and including ridiculous undeserved power.
So for instance, check this out, one ofthe studies that he talked about was there would be, two, subjects in an experiment.
So let's say Susan and Susanne, youare told by the researcher, you're going to be attorneys arguing a case.
(05:51):
And I'm told, okay, David, youare the judge and you have to judge, which person argues better.
And that's what wethink is the experiment.
So you do your thing.
I judge.
But then the real experimenthappens when it's over.
They bring us in a plate of four cookies.
(06:13):
And the person who just randomlygets selected the judge is way more likely to go for the fourth cookie and also talk with their mouth full of cookie And crumbs spilling out.
So that's just one of manyexamples that he cites about again, the corrosive effect of power.
(06:36):
So, you know, that, that I think no matterhow, you know, self aware we think we are in like, I want to do the right thing.
I think it's so important to be supervigilant, the more power that we have.
Isn't that wild?
Is that so?
(06:56):
is, I've never heard of that before.
When you were talking, I wasthinking about the Milgram experiment, with the electric shocks.
it was a horrible experiment that,that actually, that is not really talked about that much anymore because it was, it was not very ethical.
But that one, how fascinating.
And just being put in that positionof power immediately changes behavior.
Because I must admit, when I was gatheringthese stories from people, there's, there's, that's the undercurrent.
(07:18):
It's someone with powerbehaving badly towards.
Someone without power.
That seems to be the overarching theme,I think, and yeah, maybe that's got the thing, but the other thing that you said, which I think is really important, is not being held to account.
So why has no one done anythingabout this sort of behavior?
Was it something that, this person sawtheir boss do and then they thought it was okay because I hear that a lot with stories around long working hours and things so oh well I had to do it when I started working in banking, consulting, legal, whatever so everyone else should do the same so maybe it becomes this sort of perpetuated way of behaving.
(08:01):
Possibly, and it's also that it mayhave happened at home or at school.
And then almost like that person,when they get into a position of.
power or control.
That's the conditioned view they haveof how that type of person behaves.
(08:22):
And maybe the first time they do it,they're not conscious that they've actually chosen to pick up food and throw it at somebody because like, really?
however, then they kind of thought,Oh, well, I got away with it.
And they continue, but none of usare psychiatrists whatever here.
(08:44):
So it's all just speculation, butI guess unless you call out bad behavior, it's going to continue.
And especially if the personis in the position of power.
And I don't know whatyou do in that instance.
it reminds me of our recent conversation,David, about psychological safety, because if you don't feel like you can.
(09:06):
safely stand up and say something.
You may well be ridiculed aswell for drawing attention.
hopefully you've got a HR department.
I actually, you know what, I think nowyou take out your phone and you video it.
I think that is the way to dealwith a lot of this stuff now that actually it kind of gives a little bit more power to the powerless.
(09:33):
Because what are they going to do then?
And if they watch themselves throwfood at somebody, it may well be the trigger that's needed to, to hold them to account somehow.
And just on the power, the corrosiveeffects of power, I mean, a phrase or saying I've always thought about is power corrupts, an absolute power corrupts absolutely, and we don't have to go far to see that playing out in the world.
(10:10):
absolutely.
I think I wonder as well whether behaviourthat real extreme end of the spectrum, some people might view that and think it's funny, other people in the office could laugh because it's not happening to them so they're okay, but that might be something quite amusing for some and that maybe it's, and maybe even the person it happened to, if they told the
(10:31):
story to their friends or family, Furtherdown the line they might laugh at it too with the benefit of hindsight, but it's not funny It's it's very extreme and I think actually you're right this story I think was from some time ago and you'd like to think perhaps the world has moved on and that That would happen less.
I think the bit that's interesting isthinking about bad behavior That's almost the other end of the spectrum where it's it's not that physical, but it's almost more mental psychological, bad behavior that happens in the workplace that perhaps is less obvious, but probably more insidious, I would think.
(11:07):
Yeah.
Because, yeah, it's easier todeny the, oh, I was just kidding.
you take it?
Yeah, I've got an example as well thatsomebody told me about that, where he was in a meeting with a whole load of colleagues, and they were doing a review of the year and how things had gone, and one particular guy member of the team was congratulated on a really great piece of work that they've done and they
(11:36):
were given a bottle of champagne andeveryone gave them a round of applause and it was all very celebratory and when they sat down again the boss of this team stood up and basically said, I quote, you'll be nothing without me and and basically took the credit for all
of this work so the celebratory naturewas immediately gone and the meeting descended into this awful sort of bun fight of accusations and then they all left and then apologetic emails were sent but not from the senior person who eventually did apologize a few days later.
(12:08):
The quote that my, colleague used todescribe this person who'd taken the credit for everyone else's work was that they cast an egotistical shadow over the team, which I thought was a really interesting way of putting it.
So to me, that's pretty much as badas throwing something at somebody because it's, it's taking something away, from somebody, you know, taking credit for their work and not allowing them to celebrate.
(12:32):
I wonder if that sort of behavior happensmore often than we might like to think.
clearly know lots of people who've workedin some really terrible organisation.
Oh.
I've seen plenty of examples ofthis myself, Susanne, for sure in, in different guises, but in people taking credit where really the credit does not lie with them at all.
(13:06):
I suppose, again, you think like whatis going through their heads and I guess they are just lacking in confidence or, there's something that they're lashing out, look at me, look at me, I'm great.
Why isn't anyone thanking me?
We could give them the benefit ofthe doubt and say that they did have something there and no one mentioned them and so they lashed out.
(13:31):
But, it's possible that they justdon't cope well when the spotlight's not on them and that's why they're in a position of leadership, basically.
Because they want the spotlight andthe glory and all that goes with it.
not a lot you can do about that,Again, it's about self awareness.
Now, they did apologise, you said, it'dbe great to know if that apology was heartfelt or coerced, because if it was something that they were made to do, then I guess they never really understood why or felt actually genuinely sorry.
(14:11):
Yeah, from the story that was told tome, it was everyone else in the room apologised immediately for something that they hadn't started necessarily, but it definitely seemed to lead them down a road where the nice atmosphere was lost.
The person who I guess you'd think wasthe protagonist, it seems like didn't apologise until quite a few days later.
So you sort of think They wereforced to do it, perhaps, because of everything else that had gone on.
(14:36):
but yeah, it'd be interesting to knowwhether they, they truly knew what had happened, what had gone wrong, or whether they were just apologising because everyone else had apologised.
Who knows?
Here's what I'm wondering.
So I'm thinking from thelistener's point of view, in terms of, actionable suggestions.
(15:01):
the two that I can think of, two domainsrelated to people behaving badly.
So one is, What are thingsthat we can do that situation?
both to potentially stop it ormitigate the damage, number one.
(15:27):
And then just as important, what canwe do to make sure we're not that guy?
So to speak.
and I doubt anybody who wouldbother to listen to this.
Is not prone to throwing,you know, food at people.
But again, because we're all imperfect.
if we have any, any kind of power,including even just like having a strong personality that we can be doing.
(15:55):
Like there can be people emailingother people about things we've done for other podcasts.
So.
I hope
There's several, severalpodcasts dealing with this.
Even as we speak.
(16:16):
So I'm curious, like, wherewould you like to go with those?
Let's do the first one first.
So if you're in this situation andyou're observing this or it's happening to you or to somebody around you, how do you stop this sort of behavior?
what are the actions that you can take?
Let's do that first and then let'sdo the self awareness after because I think that's really interesting.
(16:40):
how would you stop it?
I think the first thing is youhave to weigh up the interpersonal risks involved in, in, in, in the course of action that you take.
And I would say that don't do anythingthat puts you more in the firing line.
So don't do anything that's going toget you food thrown at you non stop all day long, every day find someone to talk to, someone to witness it, a couple of people to witness it, take a video of when it's happening.
(17:10):
There's a customer there, you said.
Can you encourage yourcustomer to make a complaint?
There are various ways ofbringing it out into the open.
if you feel safe enough.
You could just say stop, or pleasedon't do that, don't throw food at me.
(17:30):
I think sometimes if we'revery direct in a calm manner, that can hit home quite well.
or I noticed.
that you threw food at me.
I mean, this sounds a bit funny,but you know, I've noticed you're throwing food at me.
Do you think that thatis acceptable behavior?
(17:51):
I mean, you can come up with a coupleof variations, but I often think the direct approach to something that is abominable, I can't even say the word, but unacceptable in every domain might actually be the shock that's required because there's a possibility that the person is not fully aware of the course of action that they've taken.
(18:16):
And
yeah, they've done it so long,they're just on autopilot.
I can give you two examples.
One is like a example of theshock approach, And then.
I can give a personal example,which was a delayed response that hopefully people find useful.
(18:37):
So one was a young woman, who wasa career coaching client of mine.
And, we're doing a mock interviewand the question was like, can you give me an example of how you've dealt with a difficult person?
And she said how she was in a meetingwith a really important client.
(18:58):
of the companies.
It was, like a family owned businessand there was the patriarch and then the son and the patriarch was used to bullying people and getting away with yelling and temper tantruming, et cetera.
And he did that to her and kind of to yourpoint, Susan, very calmly, she just said.
(19:20):
Something like, it's not okaywith me that you're yelling at me.
when you're able to calm down, I'mhappy to continue the conversation.
And she gets up and walks out andhe's like, he couldn't believe that.
And the son comes running outand he goes, I am so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
I'll keep my father under control.
And she comes back inand he's well behaved.
(19:43):
So.
Great example of what you're saying,Susan, the, the personal example, This will, sound familiar because it's the story I tell in my book dealing with a difficult coworker.
and so a coworker, who, when I workedat this company, every now and then in team meetings, so he was the same level as me in team meetings, he would come out with these off the wall, rude, inappropriate remarks to people, like something maturity level of a, middle school or primary school, I think you call it in England, a boy.
(20:24):
And I remember I'd be like, What?
And then I'd look at the otherperson to see how they'd, respond, like, is this normal?
Because I'd never worked in acorporate environment before.
And they looked just as shocked as I felt.
Well, a couple months into, workingthere, being Mr. Introvert, I finally get up my courage to, say something in a team meeting.
(20:46):
And, and it was abrainstorming about something.
So I share my idea.
He looks at me and he goes,Your idea stinks and so do you.
Oh,
Oh, like what?
Like, what do you say to that?
And so I had no idea what to, you know,what, like, what, what do you say to that?
(21:10):
So I don't say anything.
because nothing comes to mind, but ofcourse, hour after hour post meeting, I'm just playing it over and over again, getting angrier and angrier, and full of, self righteous outrage, and how dare he, and then I start plotting my revenge, how am I going to get back at him, etc.,
(21:34):
etc., and I'll, cut to the chase of,well, actually before I say about the conversation, I did some serious debating on, do I even bring it up to him?
I knew for my psyche, I, Iwasn't willing to let it go.
I needed to address it that like, that'snot something I'm willing to tolerate.
(21:59):
But given what I'd seen with him before,this really immature, boy maturity level, I'm thinking, what are the odds of this conversation going well?
I could totally see him just blowing meoff, like lighten up, I'm just joking.
So what happens if he does that?
(22:20):
Now what?
So I really debated a lot on whetherto even have the conversation, but it's like, no, I need to have it.
And so the next day, after hours ofobsessing and, reality testing with a particular friend of mine, like, what about if I bring it up this way?
So check this out.
(22:41):
So, the next day at work, thiswas a cubicle environment.
So he's at his cubicle and, therearen't too many people around yet because it's first thing in the morning.
But the last thing I wanted todo was have this discussion.
With an audience.
Did you ever see gladiator
yes.
view?
So do you remember when the gladiatorsthey look at the emperor and they go?
(23:05):
We who are about to die salute youI feel like that would be me to the audience because I know if it becomes a verbal battle i'm losing
So I ask him like if wecould meet in an office.
I, wanted to talk withhim about something.
Like, sure.
So, we get in there.
So, it's not a spectator event.
(23:26):
And I, say something like, hey, I don'tknow if you remember in yesterday's meeting, when I brought up my idea and you said your idea stinks and so do you.
I'm sure you're just trying to befunny, but being on the receiving end of it, it didn't feel that funny.
So, I was wondering, like,What was up with that?
And I was really conscious ofno attitude in the voice tone is like, like soft, genuine curiosity.
(23:55):
And he's like,
Oh, wow.
I don't even remember saying that.
Thank you for letting me know.
And I'm like, Oh, I didn't expect that.
And then he goes.
Yeah, man, thank you for bringing it up.
I would hate to thinkI was offending people.
(24:15):
Of course, my, I know, my insidevoice like, you're kidding, right?
And then if that's not like gobsmackedworthy, he's like, Yeah, thank you for telling me because I really pride myself on my professionalism.
I know I'm like, you're kidding, right?
(24:36):
I didn't say that.
And sometimes like I share thatstory in a seminar, people are like, Oh, I bet he was lying.
And two things.
One is.
Yeah, that's my response.
I shook my shoulders.
One is, if you saw him, youcould see how sincere he was.
And number two, even if he was lying,he's put on notice, I'm going to call you out on this if you do it again.
(25:02):
I'm not going to try to, discernwhether he's telling the truth or not.
And so.
Yeah, that's Having once, in my firstcareer been a therapist and working with a lot of men, stereotype time, I knew, even though I love talking about relationships and stuff, we're not gonna go there with this guy.
Like, cause I really wanted to know,Talk about like all the other times he's been mean to people and that doesn't really help the working relationships, etc, etc. I knew enough not to do that and just like, hey, you know, appreciate your willingness to talk about it.
(25:36):
It's like, no, man,thanks for bringing it up.
He never did it again to me, and Inever saw him do it to anybody else.
And so if you were to ask me toput money on, is this conversation going to go well or crash and burn?
I would have put money onit's going to crash and burn.
So I love sharing that story togive people hope that even people that haven't demonstrated, they're capable of a mature conversation.
(26:08):
If you do bring your a game.
You know, and all the stuff thatSusan, you and I've been talking about in our LinkedIn live.
If you go in there in a productivestate, telling yourself a useful story, it can work out.
So
that's, those are my
story.
thoughts.
Yes.
(26:29):
Yes.
actually, David, of something thatis in my book, leading beyond the numbers, but it's something that I have to constantly remind myself of.
And it's one of these practices, isn'tit, that we keep talking about as well that we let go of sometimes, but it's to look at the person and not the behavior,
(26:50):
right?
So it's to actually look at the personand not their behavior because the behavior is just a manifestation.
like that person wasn't aware of theirbehavior, but by you looking at the person and figuring out how to deal with the person, the person revealed themselves as well and looked at their own behaviors.
So I think sometimes we get caughtup in the behavior and actually there's a person behind that.
(27:17):
and that's where bringing yourcuriosity, that's the phrase you use?
Get curious, not furious, David, right?
And you think about, if I had Right afterthe meeting, stormed into his office, stormed to his cubicle and confronted him.
Cues of threat, big time, immediatelytriggered, a defensive and antagonistic response on his part.
(27:44):
So for other people that have delayedintelligence like I do in those situations, it can be a good thing because you have time to pause, reflect, calm down, and come up with a more, a curious measured response.
And I think that calmness is importantbecause I was reflecting earlier today before speaking to you about the thread that is behind a lot of these examples of bad behavior, which was shared with me.
(28:14):
And a lot of it was temper and anger.
And so if you meet that angerwith your own anger, you're not going to get a positive response.
Whereas taking yourself out of thesituation, considering how to respond, and then coming at it with exactly the approach that you talked about, David, you're more likely to get a positive outcome because you're not meeting them where they are.
(28:37):
You're meeting them at a differentplace with a bit of distance.
I think that's what's really important.
Huge.
And that's where I love the workof Pema Chodron, the Buddhist nun, I always recommend the book, don't bite the hook by her.
I recommend the audioversion and it's so true.
(28:59):
When she talks about that thing that Iknow the three of us have talked about is that pause the power of the pause?
And I love what she talks about.
It's so true that if we do lash out,Out of anger, it feels good in the moment because we discharge that pent up energy and it's like, Oh, I got that off my chest and all that does, neurons that fire together, wire together.
(29:28):
All it does is reinforce that otherpeople are pulling our strings.
And we're not able to maintain that calm.
It reminds me of some coachingconversations I've had over the years where people have come angry about something, an email that was sent or something that was said in a meeting and their They want to react.
(29:49):
They want to respond.
And I quite often ask the question,what purpose is that serving?
why are you doing that?
How is that going to help?
And you'll get that brieffeeling of, oh, that's it.
I've told them everything I wantthem to know, but it won't last.
It won't resolve the situation.
And it's just you lashing out justlike they've lashed out at you.
The temptation to respond quickly, thetemptation to write an email back to the snotty email you've received is huge.
(30:15):
But it's actually about taking a pause,taking that step back and reflecting.
And then coming at it withthat positive story, positive mindset, as you said, David.
And coming at it as from a placeof wanting to try and resolve it, but also of curiosity.
I think that point that yousaid, Susan, is really important.
You've got to be curious.
and I suspect for a lot of people.
(30:35):
They do lack that self awareness.
No one's told them this before, so theydon't realise the impact that it has.
And
I guess there's also the issue ofwhether the person is more senior than you at the same level or more junior, whether that's email in person.
that also adds a dynamic if you allowit, I think, because at the end of the day, we're human beings being human and there is a way to be treated and there is a way not to be treated and being able to stand up for yourself, knowing what's right and what doesn't fit well with you.
(31:17):
That's what matters, too.
And, and it's always important to beable to stand up for yourself because otherwise you'll turn into a resentful, bitter human and you might think that because somebody's more senior than you, that they should know better.
(31:38):
Well, you'd be right to think theyshould know better, but it doesn't mean that they necessarily do.
And I think we can losesight of that as well.
And I was very fortunate growing upbecause my dad, the one piece of advice that I've kept with me all these years is just because somebody is in a position of authority doesn't mean that they're right or that they know what they're doing.
(32:04):
And I think, especially when itcomes to unacceptable or poor or bad behaviour, that's never right they shouldn't be doing it.
And so you're always encouraged notto settle for that, I would say.
In whatever way you canresolve the situation, do it.
(32:28):
I think I would also encourage anyonelistening who has got issues with this sort of behavior or know someone who has to make use of the systems and processes that exist in organizations to help, because, it is difficult if it's somebody more senior than you, or if it's prolonged and it's causing a lot of distress.
(32:50):
And all organizations will have processesto deal with this sort of thing of a variety of forms, HR departments, some organizations have counselors and external organizations, but there's, there's lots of support out there.
And I think for my time workingin HR, you see a huge amount of this sort of behavior.
And It was interesting what was saidearlier about people not realising that what they're doing is offensive or causing problems for people, and that's often the case, but that's not the point.
(33:22):
the issue from an HR perspective isalways it's how something is perceived rather than what the intention was.
So you do have to reach out,you do have to get that support.
The number of times I've sat there informal meetings, where the person who's been accused of doing something has said, Oh, well, it was just a joke, or we were just having a bit of fun.
And it's not fun if it's causingproblems for somebody else.
(33:46):
That's
it's like that saying that
It is, yeah, it's just fun, theycan't take a joke, blah, blah, blah, you still hear it now and I think it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if that was your intention, if someone's upset by it, that's not okay.
you're shirking your responsibility.
Sorry, David, I'll stop now, you'renot taking personal responsibility for the fact that that had an impact on another human being, David.
(34:11):
And
actually used the word Iwas going to use impact.
It's like that classic saying thedifference between intent and impact.
It actually kind of remindsyou of the good old back.
Eons ago when I studied neurolinguisticprogramming when they, one of the little quotes was the meaning of a communication is the impact it has.
(34:40):
And I love that.
Yeah, it doesn't matter what you intended.
The meaning is what, how it affectedthe person, the meaning they created.
So adjust accordingly.
Yeah.
So going back then to the other, the othertrain of thought that you had, David, how do we make sure that we're not that person who's wandering around behaving in a way that is upsetting to people?
(35:05):
how can we in the listeners makesure that we're not that person?
Yeah.
So I'll just throw out a fewthoughts and love to hear.
What you to think of.
So one is, it reminds me ofMark Twain, the great, cynic and sarcastic person where he said, No man's life is a complete waste.
(35:31):
He can always serve asa bad example to avoid.
Yeah.
And so, with that premise.
We could learn about ourselvesby watching other people.
And so notice other people behavingbadly and ask, do I do a version of that?
(35:51):
And so let's say the example of theperson like, Hey, if it wasn't for me.
This never would have been like, okay,I would never be that ridiculous, but is there some other way where I try to shine the spotlight on me or discount other people?
So I feel better for instance.
So, using other peopleand things that bug us.
(36:15):
as a stimulus for self, evaluation.
and I think back to, psychologicalsafety, being brave enough to ask people that you respect for feedback.
I love the concept of feed forward.
and it's interesting.
I first heard it from Marshall Goldsmith,who's like, Super famous executive coach and how if he works with an executive, he won't work with them unless they get feedback from their team.
(36:50):
but he frames it as feed forward, whichinstead of saying like, what have I done?
That's like really, you know,horrible, I'm exaggerating.
it's in the future.
what can I do differently?
Like that stop, keep doing,do more of conversation.
The key is it's in the futureand it's so interesting.
(37:11):
Good old Adam Grant.
I think it was in hidden potential.
Yeah, it wasn't hidden potentialwhere he talks about that's.
What he recommends people insteadof getting feedback is give advice, like how can I be a better presenter?
How can I be a better listener?
How can I give betterconstructive feedback?
(37:34):
So it's moving forward, not analyzingthe past because you think about it.
If you analyze the past, it can triggershame and helplessness because like, okay, I'm not good in that area.
I've got all these.
examples of not doing well.
Okay, I'm a big loser.
(37:55):
But if it's in the future,this would make me even better.
I can do something about that.
So asking for candid feedbackin a feed forward way.
And one of the things I've saidto people, is, please don't worry about hurting my feelings.
Like I really want to know, because youthink about it, the most sensitive and emotionally intelligent of your friends,
(38:23):
it's very possible they're least likely togive you the really hard to hear feedback.
So how to lower the bar to make iteasier for them to be really candid.
So some of my thoughts about that.
I think that's really interesting,because a lot of people are quite afraid of feedback, aren't they?
360 feedback and things.
(38:44):
But I like that idea of the feed forward.
And I was reflecting when you weretalking, David, on the point you were making about saying to friends, it's okay.
I think this is when it's quite usefulto get someone you don't really know that well to give you some feedback.
So this is where having Someone externalsupporting you is really helpful because I remember my coach said to me when I was working with her That's the benefit of having a coach is they'll have the conversations with you that your friends and family won't So your your friends and family always want the best for you.
(39:16):
if you say oh How do you think I did with?
That presentation, they're morelikely to go, Oh, you're amazing.
Cause they love you and they care for you.
Whereas a coach or someone externalis more likely to go, well, there's things you could have done better.
so I think it's good to getsome external advice on that.
Dr. Jackie Rigby was on my podcastrecently and she said, you can't read the label when you're inside the jar.
(39:39):
And that really stuck with me, because youcan't see it unless someone else points it out to you, and you're more likely to get that feedback from someone else.
Now I know that's not withineveryone's gift to get external support, but I certainly think for leaders it's really important that they get some external support.
(40:00):
What you said, David, about looking tothe past as well, I think defensiveness is the other one that it can bring up.
So I think you talked about shame orguilt, defensiveness, which also will shut down and become a barrier and it will stop future conversations.
somebody might not notice that you feelthe guilt or the shame, but they'll probably notice when you become defensive.
(40:20):
And the other thing that I'm recalling aswe're having this conversation is I had this lady on my podcast quite some time ago now, and she talked about how She was writing another book at the time, and the book was about how not to be a jerk.
(40:41):
And she was writing it from theperspective of having been a jerk at work.
And she was very open about that,and she said she was a jerk.
She was horrible to people.
And she said she knew, and hertheory was that most people do know.
when they're behaving badly or poorlyor unacceptably, they just don't know how to shift out of it because they're unhappy with themselves, with their lives, with all these things that are going on and And her book is really interesting.
(41:16):
I'll put it in the show notes.
I can't remember the name of it now.
but I think it might be somethinglike how not to be a jerk.
if you're somebody listening to this,you know, and we're saying, how do you make sure it's not you or us?
and if you know thatyou don't always behave.
In the best way or the way you'd liketo, you'll possibly get something from reading that book as well because she draws out her own story and stories of others in a really, really helpful way.
(41:45):
She says the book is for peoplewho no longer want to be jerks, but I actually thought it was really interesting as well to read it from the perspective of To be more understanding of people who are unhappy with things and taking it out on others.
Because it's not about us.
And I think that's the other thing maybewe haven't said, is this behaviour that somebody has towards us is never about us.
(42:13):
It's always about them, andthat's something to remember.
Although I would like to throw a, anotherperspective, another, phrase that I love from years ago about we teach people to treat us the way they treat us.
And so if we, you know, if wetolerate the bad behavior, we're signaling that that's okay.
(42:39):
so let's say the, the food throwingboss, whatever's going on inside of them is driving that behavior.
And so it's a both and, and ifwe're tolerating it, they're getting the message that's okay.
I want listeners to also have that,what back to that accountability for ourselves, like, okay, given that reality, what's in my circle of control.
(43:08):
that's really helpful.
Yeah, I think it is that calling it out.
Isn't it?
It's what helps people understandwhether something's acceptable or not acceptable, but also an organizational level sets the standard for how people behave within that organization.
And if people see a behaviorbeing perpetuated, especially at a leadership level, that becomes almost the way things are done.
(43:31):
that can't continue.
I've worked in organizations wherepeople speak to each other in the most atrocious way in meetings.
People complain about it,but nothing's ever done.
And it happens even atthe most senior levels.
And so it carries on.
So holding people accountable whilstrecognizing that the behavior is, is because of the person who's doing it rather than anything that you have done in particular.
(43:55):
And I think you're right, Susan, oftenthis behavior that we characterize as bad or inappropriate is as a result of negative emotions.
of the person.
So whether it's unhappiness, shame,regret, all of these things, they can lead to some very negative behaviours.
Also, when you talked about, beingmodeled in leadership, another, fun fact from Robert Sutton's research that was really disturbing was he said how research shows that if you work for a jerk, you are likely to become a jerk.
(44:33):
Yeah, isn't that terrifyingthat that behavior ends up, you end up emulating that.
I don't know if it's like, I guessthat's okay, or it ends up being a survival mechanism, whatever.
and actually back to Adam Grant, Iremember one of his LinkedIn posts where it was a screenshot from a tweet that he did something like, if you.
(45:00):
Accept a job in an organization with agoal of changing the culture forget it.
The culture is going to change you.
So, cautionary note, be really mindfulof, What environment we put ourselves in.
And I wonder if people become likethat because they see that as the way to get on, or whether it's because that's seen as acceptable.
(45:27):
I'm thinking of a place I worked afew years ago there was no negative behavior on anyone's part but I noticed that people started dressing like the new boss quite quickly.
it was Interesting to see thatpeople who previously addressed in a certain way suddenly started to dress in a different way.
(45:50):
and so that got me thinking,well, why were they doing that?
Well, they were doing it becauseperhaps they thought that was the way to be successful.
So I'm wondering with some of thesebehaviors, whether people do it because it just becomes normal or whether they start doing it because they see that as the way to success.
I don't know.
I didn't start dressing,just want to say that.
(46:11):
It was a man, I didn't want todress like him, but others did.
I think it can come back to, if youdon't know who you are, then you will follow in the footsteps of the person you think you want to be, perhaps.
again, it reminds me of a podcastconversation with, Eamon Fitzgerald from quite some time ago.
(46:34):
I use the story in my book as well, buthe said, when he became the managing director of an organization, he thought that he needed to be like the former managing director and Those shoes were not possible for him to fill because he was a completely different person.
And when he relaxed into hisjob and showed up as himself, he found he was much more successful.
(47:00):
this where we come back to selfawareness or coaching or any of those things that finding out who you are truly is so important and understanding yourself and not perhaps wasting.
I don't want to be insulting anyone,but trying to copy someone else isn't the way to be yourself in this life.
(47:25):
And sure, you can take things fromthem that you want to use and you can learn from them, but be yourself.
Yeah, I think that's true.
And I think a lot of that sortof modelling of behaviour and dressing the same, I suspect came from a place of inexperience and not being sure who you were.
(47:51):
and I think, yeah, it is about havingthat confidence to just be you, but also having that level of, self awareness, reflection, insight, that we can check in on ourselves just to make sure we're not being the jerk, you know.
Isn't it this thing that someonesays, if there's no idiot in the room, you're the idiot.
Well, maybe that's, that'sthe way to think about it.
(48:12):
If you're in a meeting and you don't knowwho the jerk is, maybe you're the jerk.
I think that's a great point, Susanne,because if you're the common denominator, often in a situation that, you don't get on with this person and you don't get on with that person and you don't get on with that person and you don't like that and you're the thing that's in common, then perhaps you need to look at yourself.
(48:38):
And that's easier said than done.
It really is.
And it takes practice, butyou've got to start somewhere.
no one wants to be that person, do they?
I mean, it's very brave of yourpodcast guest to write a book about how she used to be a jerk.
I really admire that because I think howmany of us would actually be prepared to stand up and say I was that person?
(49:00):
Hats off.
Yeah, she's done so much work andinternal work and turned her life around and it's quite incredible.
And that was her second book.
So yeah, I'll definitelyput this in the show notes.
One for the reading list.
(49:20):
Where do we go from here?
Do we have one last story?
Do we think we've done enough?
Does anyone have anythingelse they'd like to share?
I don't have any more storiesof, terrible behavior.
Well, I do, but they were quite similarto what we've already talked about.
I think for me, what I've really enjoyedabout this discussion is, is that, that discussion about self awareness and, and having that insight and asking others.
(49:49):
for how we appear.
And I think there's a, there's abenefit to all of us for doing that, both reflecting on interactions that we have with other people after we have them, but also asking other people for that, that feedback.
And I think I noticed in organizations,there's not enough time for reflection.
and I think it's really importantthat we build that in, for ourselves and for others so that people do have time to think about these things.
(50:14):
Totally.
Reflection is like a superpower andit really is something that, and it took me a long time to believe that.
And, and it's a practice and Of course,being honest in your reflection is also a practice because it's very easy to reflect on everyone else and everything else.
(50:39):
And, starting from, what did Icontribute to that situation or what could I have done differently?
And it's not about the judgment, is it?
We will all beat ourselves up,we're all our own worst critics.
But at times we don't recognisethat we also have a power to shift something or to make a change.
(51:02):
And that power often starts withreflection, self reflection.
And I think maybe one other, simplepractice, that can be helpful to people is when you're asking for.
feed forward, we'll say feed forward isto make sure you ask for examples, like what would that look like, so that we know what they're talking about and not assuming just because they use a term like, you know, be a better listener or not be such a micromanager, whatever it is, like, what would that look like?
(51:45):
What would that sound like?
And also I think maybe hold someof it lightly, because it's not always going to be the truth.
It's going to be somebodyelse's version of you.
And of course, if it comes uptime and time again, there is something to really focus in on.
(52:05):
But, we would all like people tobe mirror images of ourselves so that life would just be easier.
Boy, that is a huge thank you for mention.
That is a huge takeaway.
And again, that's one of the things Ireally liked with Adam Grant's book, where he really dives in about how to actually make feedback useful and kind of back to your point, Susan, or no, maybe it was Susanne about yeah, friends and family like, oh, you're wonderful and everything is he said, like, avoid it.
(52:42):
cheerleaders and I can't remember whatthe other term is, but like people who are unhappy about everything in the world, get really, wise, insightful feedback givers.
So you don't have to takeit with a grain of salt.
Be really conscious of whereyou're getting the feedback from.
(53:04):
It's kind of like Susan, that littlevideo that we played in our LinkedIn live it's a comedian that, Chris Williamson was talking with, where she said, we humans are projection machines.
And always keep in mind that whensomebody gives us feedback, it's not just a statement about us.
It's a big statement about them too.
(53:25):
and weighing that out.
And then Susanne, it's back to whereyou're saying the value of having a coach to help you sort through the validity of all this feedback that you got.
Yeah, I think it is exactly that.
It's identifying the themes, isn't it?
So if one person says somethingabout you that you didn't know, you can think, Oh, that's interesting.
(53:47):
Then if two or three people say thesame thing, then that's the theme.
And that's something you reallydo need to pay attention to.
we all have these blind spots,but it could be that it.
affects some people because itimpacts on them and relates to their own view of the world or because you're just very different.
So yeah, I think you're right.
It's that choosing feedback, listeningto it, but also listening to it carefully and, and trying to identify what the themes are, particularly where it's something that feels new and something that you weren't aware of about yourself.
(54:19):
that just reminds me of a DavidWhite, and we haven't brought David White into this conversation at all.
But David White says, when you'restarting close in, the first question to ask yourself is, what is the conversation I need to stop having?
in my own head.
and if you ask the people around you,what is the conversation I need to stop having, they'll all tell you immediately.
(54:44):
And he said, and they won't hold backand they'll know exactly the one.
So it is great to be able to get thatfrom people and because our blind spots are, well, they're blind and that's okay because it's all about learning, growing, evolving and Being better.
And as the school of life would say,everybody wants a better life, nobody thinks about being a better person.
(55:11):
so we can all think about howwe can be better and then we will make our lives better.
It's that simple.
Love it.
Very true.
So, this has been fun.
thank you so much for those brilliantexample stories, Susanne, they brought the whole thing to life, that we actually have people's real life stories, and not just our own.
(55:40):
I mean, we have plenty of stories,but it's great to have others stories, and not have any attachment to them ourselves, And I look forward to us being together again in the future.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Thank you.
and thanks for listening.
(56:06):
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(56:30):
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(00:23):
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(00:51):
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(01:15):
Well, today the three ofus are back together again.
There's Dr. Susanne Evans,David Lee, and myself.
And this is a fairly irregular gettogether, but it's always worth it.
And today we are going to betalking about bad behaviours in the workplace and what we can do
(01:44):
And on LinkedIn, we did a call out askingfor some stories, and I know we gathered some, and of course we have plenty of our own in case we run out of those So who's going to kick us off with a story?
Do you want me to start?
Because I seem to know lots of peoplewho've had lots of bad behaviors at work, not them, the stuff that's happened to them at work.
(02:06):
So what I will say is I got lots ofdirect messages on LinkedIn with stories.
But what I found interesting is thebulk of people who sent them to me wanted to remain anonymous, but also wanted the story to be anonymous, which I think is interesting.
in itself.
That tells us something, doesn't it?
About how this sort ofbehavior can impact on people.
(02:29):
So I'll give you a few examplesplucked out at random from, from some of these stories, and hopefully they will be general enough so that I'm not identifying the organization, but interesting nevertheless.
So, so the first one that somebodytold me was about a senior person in an organization that they worked in who was very derogatory to less senior members of staff.
(02:53):
So calling them names likejunior, and things like that, which in itself is pretty bad.
But also this person threw foodat employees whilst they were speaking to their customers.
so whilst this senior person wasspeaking to their, to their employees, they would punctuate their points by throwing biscuits at the person's head while they were speaking.
(03:17):
let's unpick that one first, Cherie,because that's, I've chosen that one first because it's so terrible that I thought that's, that's probably one of the worst things I've ever heard.
I don't know what, I mean,it's unbelievable, isn't it?
so here's what comes up.
This is sort of asking, maybeit's just a rhetorical question.
(03:39):
but it'd be interesting tohear our different theories.
It's like, what would makesomebody think that was acceptable
Yeah.
And, and the question that I thoughtwhen I read the story, but was exactly that, but also how does this person behave outside of the workplace?
So are they like this at homeor is this something different?
(04:02):
Because if this was at home, youwould have real questions about this person and their behavior and it's, it's violence, it's abuse, isn't it?
And so when they're in the workplace.
Is that the same?
Are they the same athome or in the workplace?
Or is this something different?
And if it's something different, exactlyas you said, David, what happens to somebody that they think this is okay?
(04:28):
I don't know the answer because I, I mean,it would never occur to me to behave like that, but clearly in this person's mind, this was a way to behave in the workplace.
That
besides kind of the obviousthat they haven't been called out or held accountable.
one of the things that just popped intomy mind that I found so fascinating have either of you read Any of Bob Sutton's books or listen to him speak.
(04:55):
So Robert Sutton goes by Bob.
He's a Stanford professor.
he was the author of excuse the language,the book called the no asshole rule.
and I, so back in theearly two thousands, he.
Maybe he still does.
he had a blog where he wouldwrite about research on the corrosive effects of power.
(05:23):
and including ridiculous undeserved power.
So for instance, check this out, one ofthe studies that he talked about was there would be, two, subjects in an experiment.
So let's say Susan and Susanne, youare told by the researcher, you're going to be attorneys arguing a case.
(05:51):
And I'm told, okay, David, youare the judge and you have to judge, which person argues better.
And that's what wethink is the experiment.
So you do your thing.
I judge.
But then the real experimenthappens when it's over.
They bring us in a plate of four cookies.
(06:13):
And the person who just randomlygets selected the judge is way more likely to go for the fourth cookie and also talk with their mouth full of cookie And crumbs spilling out.
So that's just one of manyexamples that he cites about again, the corrosive effect of power.
(06:36):
So, you know, that, that I think no matterhow, you know, self aware we think we are in like, I want to do the right thing.
I think it's so important to be supervigilant, the more power that we have.
Isn't that wild?
Is that so?
(06:56):
is, I've never heard of that before.
When you were talking, I wasthinking about the Milgram experiment, with the electric shocks.
it was a horrible experiment that,that actually, that is not really talked about that much anymore because it was, it was not very ethical.
But that one, how fascinating.
And just being put in that positionof power immediately changes behavior.
Because I must admit, when I was gatheringthese stories from people, there's, there's, that's the undercurrent.
(07:18):
It's someone with powerbehaving badly towards.
Someone without power.
That seems to be the overarching theme,I think, and yeah, maybe that's got the thing, but the other thing that you said, which I think is really important, is not being held to account.
So why has no one done anythingabout this sort of behavior?
Was it something that, this person sawtheir boss do and then they thought it was okay because I hear that a lot with stories around long working hours and things so oh well I had to do it when I started working in banking, consulting, legal, whatever so everyone else should do the same so maybe it becomes this sort of perpetuated way of behaving.
(08:01):
Possibly, and it's also that it mayhave happened at home or at school.
And then almost like that person,when they get into a position of.
power or control.
That's the conditioned view they haveof how that type of person behaves.
(08:22):
And maybe the first time they do it,they're not conscious that they've actually chosen to pick up food and throw it at somebody because like, really?
however, then they kind of thought,Oh, well, I got away with it.
And they continue, but none of usare psychiatrists whatever here.
(08:44):
So it's all just speculation, butI guess unless you call out bad behavior, it's going to continue.
And especially if the personis in the position of power.
And I don't know whatyou do in that instance.
it reminds me of our recent conversation,David, about psychological safety, because if you don't feel like you can.
(09:06):
safely stand up and say something.
You may well be ridiculed aswell for drawing attention.
hopefully you've got a HR department.
I actually, you know what, I think nowyou take out your phone and you video it.
I think that is the way to dealwith a lot of this stuff now that actually it kind of gives a little bit more power to the powerless.
(09:33):
Because what are they going to do then?
And if they watch themselves throwfood at somebody, it may well be the trigger that's needed to, to hold them to account somehow.
And just on the power, the corrosiveeffects of power, I mean, a phrase or saying I've always thought about is power corrupts, an absolute power corrupts absolutely, and we don't have to go far to see that playing out in the world.
(10:10):
absolutely.
I think I wonder as well whether behaviourthat real extreme end of the spectrum, some people might view that and think it's funny, other people in the office could laugh because it's not happening to them so they're okay, but that might be something quite amusing for some and that maybe it's, and maybe even the person it happened to, if they told the
(10:31):
story to their friends or family, Furtherdown the line they might laugh at it too with the benefit of hindsight, but it's not funny It's it's very extreme and I think actually you're right this story I think was from some time ago and you'd like to think perhaps the world has moved on and that That would happen less.
I think the bit that's interesting isthinking about bad behavior That's almost the other end of the spectrum where it's it's not that physical, but it's almost more mental psychological, bad behavior that happens in the workplace that perhaps is less obvious, but probably more insidious, I would think.
(11:07):
Yeah.
Because, yeah, it's easier todeny the, oh, I was just kidding.
you take it?
Yeah, I've got an example as well thatsomebody told me about that, where he was in a meeting with a whole load of colleagues, and they were doing a review of the year and how things had gone, and one particular guy member of the team was congratulated on a really great piece of work that they've done and they
(11:36):
were given a bottle of champagne andeveryone gave them a round of applause and it was all very celebratory and when they sat down again the boss of this team stood up and basically said, I quote, you'll be nothing without me and and basically took the credit for all
of this work so the celebratory naturewas immediately gone and the meeting descended into this awful sort of bun fight of accusations and then they all left and then apologetic emails were sent but not from the senior person who eventually did apologize a few days later.
(12:08):
The quote that my, colleague used todescribe this person who'd taken the credit for everyone else's work was that they cast an egotistical shadow over the team, which I thought was a really interesting way of putting it.
So to me, that's pretty much as badas throwing something at somebody because it's, it's taking something away, from somebody, you know, taking credit for their work and not allowing them to celebrate.
(12:32):
I wonder if that sort of behavior happensmore often than we might like to think.
clearly know lots of people who've workedin some really terrible organisation.
Oh.
I've seen plenty of examples ofthis myself, Susanne, for sure in, in different guises, but in people taking credit where really the credit does not lie with them at all.
(13:06):
I suppose, again, you think like whatis going through their heads and I guess they are just lacking in confidence or, there's something that they're lashing out, look at me, look at me, I'm great.
Why isn't anyone thanking me?
We could give them the benefit ofthe doubt and say that they did have something there and no one mentioned them and so they lashed out.
(13:31):
But, it's possible that they justdon't cope well when the spotlight's not on them and that's why they're in a position of leadership, basically.
Because they want the spotlight andthe glory and all that goes with it.
not a lot you can do about that,Again, it's about self awareness.
Now, they did apologise, you said, it'dbe great to know if that apology was heartfelt or coerced, because if it was something that they were made to do, then I guess they never really understood why or felt actually genuinely sorry.
(14:11):
Yeah, from the story that was told tome, it was everyone else in the room apologised immediately for something that they hadn't started necessarily, but it definitely seemed to lead them down a road where the nice atmosphere was lost.
The person who I guess you'd think wasthe protagonist, it seems like didn't apologise until quite a few days later.
So you sort of think They wereforced to do it, perhaps, because of everything else that had gone on.
(14:36):
but yeah, it'd be interesting to knowwhether they, they truly knew what had happened, what had gone wrong, or whether they were just apologising because everyone else had apologised.
Who knows?
Here's what I'm wondering.
So I'm thinking from thelistener's point of view, in terms of, actionable suggestions.
(15:01):
the two that I can think of, two domainsrelated to people behaving badly.
So one is, What are thingsthat we can do that situation?
both to potentially stop it ormitigate the damage, number one.
(15:27):
And then just as important, what canwe do to make sure we're not that guy?
So to speak.
and I doubt anybody who wouldbother to listen to this.
Is not prone to throwing,you know, food at people.
But again, because we're all imperfect.
if we have any, any kind of power,including even just like having a strong personality that we can be doing.
(15:55):
Like there can be people emailingother people about things we've done for other podcasts.
So.
I hope
There's several, severalpodcasts dealing with this.
Even as we speak.
(16:16):
So I'm curious, like, wherewould you like to go with those?
Let's do the first one first.
So if you're in this situation andyou're observing this or it's happening to you or to somebody around you, how do you stop this sort of behavior?
what are the actions that you can take?
Let's do that first and then let'sdo the self awareness after because I think that's really interesting.
(16:40):
how would you stop it?
I think the first thing is youhave to weigh up the interpersonal risks involved in, in, in, in the course of action that you take.
And I would say that don't do anythingthat puts you more in the firing line.
So don't do anything that's going toget you food thrown at you non stop all day long, every day find someone to talk to, someone to witness it, a couple of people to witness it, take a video of when it's happening.
(17:10):
There's a customer there, you said.
Can you encourage yourcustomer to make a complaint?
There are various ways ofbringing it out into the open.
if you feel safe enough.
You could just say stop, or pleasedon't do that, don't throw food at me.
(17:30):
I think sometimes if we'revery direct in a calm manner, that can hit home quite well.
or I noticed.
that you threw food at me.
I mean, this sounds a bit funny,but you know, I've noticed you're throwing food at me.
Do you think that thatis acceptable behavior?
(17:51):
I mean, you can come up with a coupleof variations, but I often think the direct approach to something that is abominable, I can't even say the word, but unacceptable in every domain might actually be the shock that's required because there's a possibility that the person is not fully aware of the course of action that they've taken.
(18:16):
And
yeah, they've done it so long,they're just on autopilot.
I can give you two examples.
One is like a example of theshock approach, And then.
I can give a personal example,which was a delayed response that hopefully people find useful.
(18:37):
So one was a young woman, who wasa career coaching client of mine.
And, we're doing a mock interviewand the question was like, can you give me an example of how you've dealt with a difficult person?
And she said how she was in a meetingwith a really important client.
(18:58):
of the companies.
It was, like a family owned businessand there was the patriarch and then the son and the patriarch was used to bullying people and getting away with yelling and temper tantruming, et cetera.
And he did that to her and kind of to yourpoint, Susan, very calmly, she just said.
(19:20):
Something like, it's not okaywith me that you're yelling at me.
when you're able to calm down, I'mhappy to continue the conversation.
And she gets up and walks out andhe's like, he couldn't believe that.
And the son comes running outand he goes, I am so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
I'll keep my father under control.
And she comes back inand he's well behaved.
(19:43):
So.
Great example of what you're saying,Susan, the, the personal example, This will, sound familiar because it's the story I tell in my book dealing with a difficult coworker.
and so a coworker, who, when I workedat this company, every now and then in team meetings, so he was the same level as me in team meetings, he would come out with these off the wall, rude, inappropriate remarks to people, like something maturity level of a, middle school or primary school, I think you call it in England, a boy.
(20:24):
And I remember I'd be like, What?
And then I'd look at the otherperson to see how they'd, respond, like, is this normal?
Because I'd never worked in acorporate environment before.
And they looked just as shocked as I felt.
Well, a couple months into, workingthere, being Mr. Introvert, I finally get up my courage to, say something in a team meeting.
(20:46):
And, and it was abrainstorming about something.
So I share my idea.
He looks at me and he goes,Your idea stinks and so do you.
Oh,
Oh, like what?
Like, what do you say to that?
And so I had no idea what to, you know,what, like, what, what do you say to that?
(21:10):
So I don't say anything.
because nothing comes to mind, but ofcourse, hour after hour post meeting, I'm just playing it over and over again, getting angrier and angrier, and full of, self righteous outrage, and how dare he, and then I start plotting my revenge, how am I going to get back at him, etc.,
(21:34):
etc., and I'll, cut to the chase of,well, actually before I say about the conversation, I did some serious debating on, do I even bring it up to him?
I knew for my psyche, I, Iwasn't willing to let it go.
I needed to address it that like, that'snot something I'm willing to tolerate.
(21:59):
But given what I'd seen with him before,this really immature, boy maturity level, I'm thinking, what are the odds of this conversation going well?
I could totally see him just blowing meoff, like lighten up, I'm just joking.
So what happens if he does that?
(22:20):
Now what?
So I really debated a lot on whetherto even have the conversation, but it's like, no, I need to have it.
And so the next day, after hours ofobsessing and, reality testing with a particular friend of mine, like, what about if I bring it up this way?
So check this out.
(22:41):
So, the next day at work, thiswas a cubicle environment.
So he's at his cubicle and, therearen't too many people around yet because it's first thing in the morning.
But the last thing I wanted todo was have this discussion.
With an audience.
Did you ever see gladiator
yes.
view?
So do you remember when the gladiatorsthey look at the emperor and they go?
(23:05):
We who are about to die salute youI feel like that would be me to the audience because I know if it becomes a verbal battle i'm losing
So I ask him like if wecould meet in an office.
I, wanted to talk withhim about something.
Like, sure.
So, we get in there.
So, it's not a spectator event.
(23:26):
And I, say something like, hey, I don'tknow if you remember in yesterday's meeting, when I brought up my idea and you said your idea stinks and so do you.
I'm sure you're just trying to befunny, but being on the receiving end of it, it didn't feel that funny.
So, I was wondering, like,What was up with that?
And I was really conscious ofno attitude in the voice tone is like, like soft, genuine curiosity.
(23:55):
And he's like,
Oh, wow.
I don't even remember saying that.
Thank you for letting me know.
And I'm like, Oh, I didn't expect that.
And then he goes.
Yeah, man, thank you for bringing it up.
I would hate to thinkI was offending people.
(24:15):
Of course, my, I know, my insidevoice like, you're kidding, right?
And then if that's not like gobsmackedworthy, he's like, Yeah, thank you for telling me because I really pride myself on my professionalism.
I know I'm like, you're kidding, right?
(24:36):
I didn't say that.
And sometimes like I share thatstory in a seminar, people are like, Oh, I bet he was lying.
And two things.
One is.
Yeah, that's my response.
I shook my shoulders.
One is, if you saw him, youcould see how sincere he was.
And number two, even if he was lying,he's put on notice, I'm going to call you out on this if you do it again.
(25:02):
I'm not going to try to, discernwhether he's telling the truth or not.
And so.
Yeah, that's Having once, in my firstcareer been a therapist and working with a lot of men, stereotype time, I knew, even though I love talking about relationships and stuff, we're not gonna go there with this guy.
Like, cause I really wanted to know,Talk about like all the other times he's been mean to people and that doesn't really help the working relationships, etc, etc. I knew enough not to do that and just like, hey, you know, appreciate your willingness to talk about it.
(25:36):
It's like, no, man,thanks for bringing it up.
He never did it again to me, and Inever saw him do it to anybody else.
And so if you were to ask me toput money on, is this conversation going to go well or crash and burn?
I would have put money onit's going to crash and burn.
So I love sharing that story togive people hope that even people that haven't demonstrated, they're capable of a mature conversation.
(26:08):
If you do bring your a game.
You know, and all the stuff thatSusan, you and I've been talking about in our LinkedIn live.
If you go in there in a productivestate, telling yourself a useful story, it can work out.
So
that's, those are my
story.
thoughts.
Yes.
(26:29):
Yes.
actually, David, of something thatis in my book, leading beyond the numbers, but it's something that I have to constantly remind myself of.
And it's one of these practices, isn'tit, that we keep talking about as well that we let go of sometimes, but it's to look at the person and not the behavior,
(26:50):
right?
So it's to actually look at the personand not their behavior because the behavior is just a manifestation.
like that person wasn't aware of theirbehavior, but by you looking at the person and figuring out how to deal with the person, the person revealed themselves as well and looked at their own behaviors.
So I think sometimes we get caughtup in the behavior and actually there's a person behind that.
(27:17):
and that's where bringing yourcuriosity, that's the phrase you use?
Get curious, not furious, David, right?
And you think about, if I had Right afterthe meeting, stormed into his office, stormed to his cubicle and confronted him.
Cues of threat, big time, immediatelytriggered, a defensive and antagonistic response on his part.
(27:44):
So for other people that have delayedintelligence like I do in those situations, it can be a good thing because you have time to pause, reflect, calm down, and come up with a more, a curious measured response.
And I think that calmness is importantbecause I was reflecting earlier today before speaking to you about the thread that is behind a lot of these examples of bad behavior, which was shared with me.
(28:14):
And a lot of it was temper and anger.
And so if you meet that angerwith your own anger, you're not going to get a positive response.
Whereas taking yourself out of thesituation, considering how to respond, and then coming at it with exactly the approach that you talked about, David, you're more likely to get a positive outcome because you're not meeting them where they are.
(28:37):
You're meeting them at a differentplace with a bit of distance.
I think that's what's really important.
Huge.
And that's where I love the workof Pema Chodron, the Buddhist nun, I always recommend the book, don't bite the hook by her.
I recommend the audioversion and it's so true.
(28:59):
When she talks about that thing that Iknow the three of us have talked about is that pause the power of the pause?
And I love what she talks about.
It's so true that if we do lash out,Out of anger, it feels good in the moment because we discharge that pent up energy and it's like, Oh, I got that off my chest and all that does, neurons that fire together, wire together.
(29:28):
All it does is reinforce that otherpeople are pulling our strings.
And we're not able to maintain that calm.
It reminds me of some coachingconversations I've had over the years where people have come angry about something, an email that was sent or something that was said in a meeting and their They want to react.
(29:49):
They want to respond.
And I quite often ask the question,what purpose is that serving?
why are you doing that?
How is that going to help?
And you'll get that brieffeeling of, oh, that's it.
I've told them everything I wantthem to know, but it won't last.
It won't resolve the situation.
And it's just you lashing out justlike they've lashed out at you.
The temptation to respond quickly, thetemptation to write an email back to the snotty email you've received is huge.
(30:15):
But it's actually about taking a pause,taking that step back and reflecting.
And then coming at it withthat positive story, positive mindset, as you said, David.
And coming at it as from a placeof wanting to try and resolve it, but also of curiosity.
I think that point that yousaid, Susan, is really important.
You've got to be curious.
and I suspect for a lot of people.
(30:35):
They do lack that self awareness.
No one's told them this before, so theydon't realise the impact that it has.
And
I guess there's also the issue ofwhether the person is more senior than you at the same level or more junior, whether that's email in person.
that also adds a dynamic if you allowit, I think, because at the end of the day, we're human beings being human and there is a way to be treated and there is a way not to be treated and being able to stand up for yourself, knowing what's right and what doesn't fit well with you.
(31:17):
That's what matters, too.
And, and it's always important to beable to stand up for yourself because otherwise you'll turn into a resentful, bitter human and you might think that because somebody's more senior than you, that they should know better.
(31:38):
Well, you'd be right to think theyshould know better, but it doesn't mean that they necessarily do.
And I think we can losesight of that as well.
And I was very fortunate growing upbecause my dad, the one piece of advice that I've kept with me all these years is just because somebody is in a position of authority doesn't mean that they're right or that they know what they're doing.
(32:04):
And I think, especially when itcomes to unacceptable or poor or bad behaviour, that's never right they shouldn't be doing it.
And so you're always encouraged notto settle for that, I would say.
In whatever way you canresolve the situation, do it.
(32:28):
I think I would also encourage anyonelistening who has got issues with this sort of behavior or know someone who has to make use of the systems and processes that exist in organizations to help, because, it is difficult if it's somebody more senior than you, or if it's prolonged and it's causing a lot of distress.
(32:50):
And all organizations will have processesto deal with this sort of thing of a variety of forms, HR departments, some organizations have counselors and external organizations, but there's, there's lots of support out there.
And I think for my time workingin HR, you see a huge amount of this sort of behavior.
And It was interesting what was saidearlier about people not realising that what they're doing is offensive or causing problems for people, and that's often the case, but that's not the point.
(33:22):
the issue from an HR perspective isalways it's how something is perceived rather than what the intention was.
So you do have to reach out,you do have to get that support.
The number of times I've sat there informal meetings, where the person who's been accused of doing something has said, Oh, well, it was just a joke, or we were just having a bit of fun.
And it's not fun if it's causingproblems for somebody else.
(33:46):
That's
it's like that saying that
It is, yeah, it's just fun, theycan't take a joke, blah, blah, blah, you still hear it now and I think it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if that was your intention, if someone's upset by it, that's not okay.
you're shirking your responsibility.
Sorry, David, I'll stop now, you'renot taking personal responsibility for the fact that that had an impact on another human being, David.
(34:11):
And
actually used the word Iwas going to use impact.
It's like that classic saying thedifference between intent and impact.
It actually kind of remindsyou of the good old back.
Eons ago when I studied neurolinguisticprogramming when they, one of the little quotes was the meaning of a communication is the impact it has.
(34:40):
And I love that.
Yeah, it doesn't matter what you intended.
The meaning is what, how it affectedthe person, the meaning they created.
So adjust accordingly.
Yeah.
So going back then to the other, the othertrain of thought that you had, David, how do we make sure that we're not that person who's wandering around behaving in a way that is upsetting to people?
(35:05):
how can we in the listeners makesure that we're not that person?
Yeah.
So I'll just throw out a fewthoughts and love to hear.
What you to think of.
So one is, it reminds me ofMark Twain, the great, cynic and sarcastic person where he said, No man's life is a complete waste.
(35:31):
He can always serve asa bad example to avoid.
Yeah.
And so, with that premise.
We could learn about ourselvesby watching other people.
And so notice other people behavingbadly and ask, do I do a version of that?
(35:51):
And so let's say the example of theperson like, Hey, if it wasn't for me.
This never would have been like, okay,I would never be that ridiculous, but is there some other way where I try to shine the spotlight on me or discount other people?
So I feel better for instance.
So, using other peopleand things that bug us.
(36:15):
as a stimulus for self, evaluation.
and I think back to, psychologicalsafety, being brave enough to ask people that you respect for feedback.
I love the concept of feed forward.
and it's interesting.
I first heard it from Marshall Goldsmith,who's like, Super famous executive coach and how if he works with an executive, he won't work with them unless they get feedback from their team.
(36:50):
but he frames it as feed forward, whichinstead of saying like, what have I done?
That's like really, you know,horrible, I'm exaggerating.
it's in the future.
what can I do differently?
Like that stop, keep doing,do more of conversation.
The key is it's in the futureand it's so interesting.
(37:11):
Good old Adam Grant.
I think it was in hidden potential.
Yeah, it wasn't hidden potentialwhere he talks about that's.
What he recommends people insteadof getting feedback is give advice, like how can I be a better presenter?
How can I be a better listener?
How can I give betterconstructive feedback?
(37:34):
So it's moving forward, not analyzingthe past because you think about it.
If you analyze the past, it can triggershame and helplessness because like, okay, I'm not good in that area.
I've got all these.
examples of not doing well.
Okay, I'm a big loser.
(37:55):
But if it's in the future,this would make me even better.
I can do something about that.
So asking for candid feedbackin a feed forward way.
And one of the things I've saidto people, is, please don't worry about hurting my feelings.
Like I really want to know, because youthink about it, the most sensitive and emotionally intelligent of your friends,
(38:23):
it's very possible they're least likely togive you the really hard to hear feedback.
So how to lower the bar to make iteasier for them to be really candid.
So some of my thoughts about that.
I think that's really interesting,because a lot of people are quite afraid of feedback, aren't they?
360 feedback and things.
(38:44):
But I like that idea of the feed forward.
And I was reflecting when you weretalking, David, on the point you were making about saying to friends, it's okay.
I think this is when it's quite usefulto get someone you don't really know that well to give you some feedback.
So this is where having Someone externalsupporting you is really helpful because I remember my coach said to me when I was working with her That's the benefit of having a coach is they'll have the conversations with you that your friends and family won't So your your friends and family always want the best for you.
(39:16):
if you say oh How do you think I did with?
That presentation, they're morelikely to go, Oh, you're amazing.
Cause they love you and they care for you.
Whereas a coach or someone externalis more likely to go, well, there's things you could have done better.
so I think it's good to getsome external advice on that.
Dr. Jackie Rigby was on my podcastrecently and she said, you can't read the label when you're inside the jar.
(39:39):
And that really stuck with me, because youcan't see it unless someone else points it out to you, and you're more likely to get that feedback from someone else.
Now I know that's not withineveryone's gift to get external support, but I certainly think for leaders it's really important that they get some external support.
(40:00):
What you said, David, about looking tothe past as well, I think defensiveness is the other one that it can bring up.
So I think you talked about shame orguilt, defensiveness, which also will shut down and become a barrier and it will stop future conversations.
somebody might not notice that you feelthe guilt or the shame, but they'll probably notice when you become defensive.
(40:20):
And the other thing that I'm recalling aswe're having this conversation is I had this lady on my podcast quite some time ago now, and she talked about how She was writing another book at the time, and the book was about how not to be a jerk.
(40:41):
And she was writing it from theperspective of having been a jerk at work.
And she was very open about that,and she said she was a jerk.
She was horrible to people.
And she said she knew, and hertheory was that most people do know.
when they're behaving badly or poorlyor unacceptably, they just don't know how to shift out of it because they're unhappy with themselves, with their lives, with all these things that are going on and And her book is really interesting.
(41:16):
I'll put it in the show notes.
I can't remember the name of it now.
but I think it might be somethinglike how not to be a jerk.
if you're somebody listening to this,you know, and we're saying, how do you make sure it's not you or us?
and if you know thatyou don't always behave.
In the best way or the way you'd liketo, you'll possibly get something from reading that book as well because she draws out her own story and stories of others in a really, really helpful way.
(41:45):
She says the book is for peoplewho no longer want to be jerks, but I actually thought it was really interesting as well to read it from the perspective of To be more understanding of people who are unhappy with things and taking it out on others.
Because it's not about us.
And I think that's the other thing maybewe haven't said, is this behaviour that somebody has towards us is never about us.
(42:13):
It's always about them, andthat's something to remember.
Although I would like to throw a, anotherperspective, another, phrase that I love from years ago about we teach people to treat us the way they treat us.
And so if we, you know, if wetolerate the bad behavior, we're signaling that that's okay.
(42:39):
so let's say the, the food throwingboss, whatever's going on inside of them is driving that behavior.
And so it's a both and, and ifwe're tolerating it, they're getting the message that's okay.
I want listeners to also have that,what back to that accountability for ourselves, like, okay, given that reality, what's in my circle of control.
(43:08):
that's really helpful.
Yeah, I think it is that calling it out.
Isn't it?
It's what helps people understandwhether something's acceptable or not acceptable, but also an organizational level sets the standard for how people behave within that organization.
And if people see a behaviorbeing perpetuated, especially at a leadership level, that becomes almost the way things are done.
(43:31):
that can't continue.
I've worked in organizations wherepeople speak to each other in the most atrocious way in meetings.
People complain about it,but nothing's ever done.
And it happens even atthe most senior levels.
And so it carries on.
So holding people accountable whilstrecognizing that the behavior is, is because of the person who's doing it rather than anything that you have done in particular.
(43:55):
And I think you're right, Susan, oftenthis behavior that we characterize as bad or inappropriate is as a result of negative emotions.
of the person.
So whether it's unhappiness, shame,regret, all of these things, they can lead to some very negative behaviours.
Also, when you talked about, beingmodeled in leadership, another, fun fact from Robert Sutton's research that was really disturbing was he said how research shows that if you work for a jerk, you are likely to become a jerk.
(44:33):
Yeah, isn't that terrifyingthat that behavior ends up, you end up emulating that.
I don't know if it's like, I guessthat's okay, or it ends up being a survival mechanism, whatever.
and actually back to Adam Grant, Iremember one of his LinkedIn posts where it was a screenshot from a tweet that he did something like, if you.
(45:00):
Accept a job in an organization with agoal of changing the culture forget it.
The culture is going to change you.
So, cautionary note, be really mindfulof, What environment we put ourselves in.
And I wonder if people become likethat because they see that as the way to get on, or whether it's because that's seen as acceptable.
(45:27):
I'm thinking of a place I worked afew years ago there was no negative behavior on anyone's part but I noticed that people started dressing like the new boss quite quickly.
it was Interesting to see thatpeople who previously addressed in a certain way suddenly started to dress in a different way.
(45:50):
and so that got me thinking,well, why were they doing that?
Well, they were doing it becauseperhaps they thought that was the way to be successful.
So I'm wondering with some of thesebehaviors, whether people do it because it just becomes normal or whether they start doing it because they see that as the way to success.
I don't know.
I didn't start dressing,just want to say that.
(46:11):
It was a man, I didn't want todress like him, but others did.
I think it can come back to, if youdon't know who you are, then you will follow in the footsteps of the person you think you want to be, perhaps.
again, it reminds me of a podcastconversation with, Eamon Fitzgerald from quite some time ago.
(46:34):
I use the story in my book as well, buthe said, when he became the managing director of an organization, he thought that he needed to be like the former managing director and Those shoes were not possible for him to fill because he was a completely different person.
And when he relaxed into hisjob and showed up as himself, he found he was much more successful.
(47:00):
this where we come back to selfawareness or coaching or any of those things that finding out who you are truly is so important and understanding yourself and not perhaps wasting.
I don't want to be insulting anyone,but trying to copy someone else isn't the way to be yourself in this life.
(47:25):
And sure, you can take things fromthem that you want to use and you can learn from them, but be yourself.
Yeah, I think that's true.
And I think a lot of that sortof modelling of behaviour and dressing the same, I suspect came from a place of inexperience and not being sure who you were.
(47:51):
and I think, yeah, it is about havingthat confidence to just be you, but also having that level of, self awareness, reflection, insight, that we can check in on ourselves just to make sure we're not being the jerk, you know.
Isn't it this thing that someonesays, if there's no idiot in the room, you're the idiot.
Well, maybe that's, that'sthe way to think about it.
(48:12):
If you're in a meeting and you don't knowwho the jerk is, maybe you're the jerk.
I think that's a great point, Susanne,because if you're the common denominator, often in a situation that, you don't get on with this person and you don't get on with that person and you don't get on with that person and you don't like that and you're the thing that's in common, then perhaps you need to look at yourself.
(48:38):
And that's easier said than done.
It really is.
And it takes practice, butyou've got to start somewhere.
no one wants to be that person, do they?
I mean, it's very brave of yourpodcast guest to write a book about how she used to be a jerk.
I really admire that because I think howmany of us would actually be prepared to stand up and say I was that person?
(49:00):
Hats off.
Yeah, she's done so much work andinternal work and turned her life around and it's quite incredible.
And that was her second book.
So yeah, I'll definitelyput this in the show notes.
One for the reading list.
(49:20):
Where do we go from here?
Do we have one last story?
Do we think we've done enough?
Does anyone have anythingelse they'd like to share?
I don't have any more storiesof, terrible behavior.
Well, I do, but they were quite similarto what we've already talked about.
I think for me, what I've really enjoyedabout this discussion is, is that, that discussion about self awareness and, and having that insight and asking others.
(49:49):
for how we appear.
And I think there's a, there's abenefit to all of us for doing that, both reflecting on interactions that we have with other people after we have them, but also asking other people for that, that feedback.
And I think I noticed in organizations,there's not enough time for reflection.
and I think it's really importantthat we build that in, for ourselves and for others so that people do have time to think about these things.
(50:14):
Totally.
Reflection is like a superpower andit really is something that, and it took me a long time to believe that.
And, and it's a practice and Of course,being honest in your reflection is also a practice because it's very easy to reflect on everyone else and everything else.
(50:39):
And, starting from, what did Icontribute to that situation or what could I have done differently?
And it's not about the judgment, is it?
We will all beat ourselves up,we're all our own worst critics.
But at times we don't recognisethat we also have a power to shift something or to make a change.
(51:02):
And that power often starts withreflection, self reflection.
And I think maybe one other, simplepractice, that can be helpful to people is when you're asking for.
feed forward, we'll say feed forward isto make sure you ask for examples, like what would that look like, so that we know what they're talking about and not assuming just because they use a term like, you know, be a better listener or not be such a micromanager, whatever it is, like, what would that look like?
(51:45):
What would that sound like?
And also I think maybe hold someof it lightly, because it's not always going to be the truth.
It's going to be somebodyelse's version of you.
And of course, if it comes uptime and time again, there is something to really focus in on.
(52:05):
But, we would all like people tobe mirror images of ourselves so that life would just be easier.
Boy, that is a huge thank you for mention.
That is a huge takeaway.
And again, that's one of the things Ireally liked with Adam Grant's book, where he really dives in about how to actually make feedback useful and kind of back to your point, Susan, or no, maybe it was Susanne about yeah, friends and family like, oh, you're wonderful and everything is he said, like, avoid it.
(52:42):
cheerleaders and I can't remember whatthe other term is, but like people who are unhappy about everything in the world, get really, wise, insightful feedback givers.
So you don't have to takeit with a grain of salt.
Be really conscious of whereyou're getting the feedback from.
(53:04):
It's kind of like Susan, that littlevideo that we played in our LinkedIn live it's a comedian that, Chris Williamson was talking with, where she said, we humans are projection machines.
And always keep in mind that whensomebody gives us feedback, it's not just a statement about us.
It's a big statement about them too.
(53:25):
and weighing that out.
And then Susanne, it's back to whereyou're saying the value of having a coach to help you sort through the validity of all this feedback that you got.
Yeah, I think it is exactly that.
It's identifying the themes, isn't it?
So if one person says somethingabout you that you didn't know, you can think, Oh, that's interesting.
(53:47):
Then if two or three people say thesame thing, then that's the theme.
And that's something you reallydo need to pay attention to.
we all have these blind spots,but it could be that it.
affects some people because itimpacts on them and relates to their own view of the world or because you're just very different.
So yeah, I think you're right.
It's that choosing feedback, listeningto it, but also listening to it carefully and, and trying to identify what the themes are, particularly where it's something that feels new and something that you weren't aware of about yourself.
(54:19):
that just reminds me of a DavidWhite, and we haven't brought David White into this conversation at all.
But David White says, when you'restarting close in, the first question to ask yourself is, what is the conversation I need to stop having?
in my own head.
and if you ask the people around you,what is the conversation I need to stop having, they'll all tell you immediately.
(54:44):
And he said, and they won't hold backand they'll know exactly the one.
So it is great to be able to get thatfrom people and because our blind spots are, well, they're blind and that's okay because it's all about learning, growing, evolving and Being better.
And as the school of life would say,everybody wants a better life, nobody thinks about being a better person.
(55:11):
so we can all think about howwe can be better and then we will make our lives better.
It's that simple.
Love it.
Very true.
So, this has been fun.
thank you so much for those brilliantexample stories, Susanne, they brought the whole thing to life, that we actually have people's real life stories, and not just our own.
(55:40):
I mean, we have plenty of stories,but it's great to have others stories, and not have any attachment to them ourselves, And I look forward to us being together again in the future.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Thank you.
and thanks for listening.
(56:06):
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(56:30):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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