February 1, 2025 • 31 mins
Discover the profound impact of inclusive education with our guest, Lane Limpert, a devoted first-grade teacher and passionate advocate for integrating special education students into general classrooms. Lane shares her inspiring journey and offers valuable insights from her 19 years of teaching experience and her perspective as a parent of a child with special needs. Learn how fostering an inclusive environment not only builds confidence and social interaction among students but also enriches the learning experience for everyone involved.
Lane's expertise shines through as she discusses the importance of collaboration between general and special education teachers. By embracing open communication and co-teaching strategies, educators can create a supportive classroom environment that benefits all students. Lane stresses the necessary mindset shift required to view students with diverse needs as valued members of the classroom community. This episode promises to reshape your understanding of what it means to truly support every child's potential from day one.
Finally, join us as Lane reflects on her personal journey advocating for her autistic son, Lawson, as he transitions to a general education setting. Her story underscores the power of parental advocacy and the significant role it plays in shaping a child's educational path. Balancing special and general education supports can be challenging, but Lane's determination and flexibility reveal the rewards of finding the most beneficial environment for each child. Tune in for an engaging discussion on the transformative power of inclusion that will leave you inspired.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
so, laura, I'm super excited about this particular
recording.
Go ahead ask me why.
Why, jared?
I'm glad you asked so we get tohave as part of our podcast
somebody that we have had theprivilege of working with, um,
spending time with, sharingchurns with in the school
(00:25):
setting, and she has agreed tocome chit chat with us and I'm
super excited about that.
Would you like to introduce her?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Sure, so on the line here.
Is that what we call it, stillon the line.
I mean it's on the computer,but okay, so we have the first
grade teacher.
She's the first grade teacherthat we worked with for many
years and she was actuallyimplemental.
(00:56):
Is that the right word?
Implemental?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Instrumental.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Instrumental.
There we go, see Lane, youdon't have to worry about it, I
mess up all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
See, look, you already said her name before
introducing her.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know, I know Instrumental and actually the
inclusion process of our kids.
She came to us and said, hey,let me have that one.
Can I have that one for alittle while in my classroom?
And what about this one?
Can that one come too to well?
Can they come a little bit morewell?
How about a little bit more?
And so that just opened thatwhole realm of inclusion.
(01:29):
So we have, for the pastseveral years, shared many
students, and so this is lanelimpert, and she has, she has
experience.
She is a general educationteacher that has much experience
working with special educationstudents of all abilities and
(01:52):
she also is a parent of a childwith special needs as well.
But we're double dipping here,because she's got some great
insight on how to include ourkids in the general education
(02:13):
classroom and she also hasinsight on how a parent can get
their child included in theclassroom with their typically
developing peers.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So, Ms Lumber, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I'm fine, I'm so glad you guys let me come on here
tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So, first things first.
What is your deepest, darkestsecret?
Go, never mind.
Now you know that is a questionthat if we ever get your
principal on here with us, Iwill not ask her because I feel
like she would go ahead and tellthe world.
I'm going to leave it at that.
No names, no, nothing else,just All right.
(02:47):
So we're going to have a chitchat about inclusion.
Now Laura and I can get on hereand we can talk all day long
about kids need needed to beincluded with their peers.
All of that we can do it to ourblue in the face, but sometimes
when somebody hears it fromsomebody else, it clicks, and so
(03:07):
we're going to have a quickdiscussion about that, about
inclusion, and I got to tell youso your name has kind of become
a descriptor for us Like allright, so who on the
kindergarten team will be ourlimpert?
Who on the third grade team isgoing to be our limpert?
So you are like the lens thatwe view everybody through.
But no pressure, okay.
(03:31):
So if you don't mind, can youkind of give us a little bit of
an idea of what it was that?
Because, like laura said, Imean you.
You wanted to spend time withour students.
It wasn't necessarily like wewent after you and we're begging
you to spend time with them.
What is it that that kind ofcaused you to want to have them
(03:51):
in your classroom?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Well, so really I just loved them and I would just
see them and talk to them andthey would talk to me.
We had, we built a littlerelationship together and I was
like you know what, why can'tthey come with us to recess, and
why can't they come with us toresource?
(04:13):
Or why don't they come for FunFriday or something fun?
Because their peers are here,let's take them over.
So then I just kind of startedasking Miss Curtis like hey, do
you mind if I like borrow yourstudent?
Like I think they would reallyenjoy this activity.
(04:35):
And so she let me.
And so then we just kind ofkept going from there.
But I just saw those babies andjust to build a relationship
with them.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, and it certainly did snowball.
It went from one student to Idon't know.
I think we were sending likethree or four at one time or
something like that.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Yeah, I think we had like four come in during
resource, which that was fun.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
So, so what did you see?
You see, now let me ask youthis, miss limper, how long have
you been a teacher?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
oh my goodness, 19 years, fantastic you know you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You are and I mean this in the most respectful way
you are an oddity like I'mreading all the time these
papers about people bailing onthe teaching field because it's
hard and Laura brings up a lot.
I mean, it was hard prior toCOVID, but then after that it
added just a whole nother layer.
So thank you for being willingto do all of that, because it
(05:39):
ain't the easiest job in theworld.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And I know you're not there for the money.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I'm just there for the babies.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Right.
We know that.
We know that.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So, over the course of your 19 years, what would you
say were some key benefits thatyou've observed in students who
participate in your classroomthat typically aren't in your
classroom?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Well, I noticed.
Do you want me to talk aboutlike socially?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Hey, you talk about whatever you want to within
reason.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
So, socially, I noticed, like my friends who
were coming, they were learninghow to interact with their
neurotypical peers.
They were buildingrelationships with them, they
were building confidence.
I mean, I had a student thatcame to me and had a great
(06:38):
relationship with anotherstudent in my class and they
communicated in a different waythan using words all the time
and that was beneficial to bothof those students because you
know they were both learningfrom each other.
So, socially, I just reallyfeel like they were building
(07:00):
relationships.
Am I rambling?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
No, ma'am, you're good.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Okay.
So you know they were buildingrelationships with other
students, they're learning fromother students, they're being
able to communicate with thosestudents, building confidence
and their self-esteem.
Those are some things that Inoticed.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Well, and we've even seen, as a testament to what
you're talking about.
We've seen relationships thatwere forged in your classroom
that are still happening today.
Like these, students will seeeach other from each side of the
cafeteria and, of course, it'sour student that'll be the one
that yells out to the other one,but they're still there.
(07:44):
And so what you've done, andany teacher that does provide
that inclusion space with theheart that you're talking about,
I want to see these childrenbecome everything that they
possibly can, whatever thatmeans.
How can we help them do that?
And it's something that isstretched beyond your classroom.
(08:06):
It's stretched beyond a singleyear in school.
I know we had one parent tellus of a student that went to you
that they were just blown awayat how many people, like, how
many kids, knew their child, andit all stemmed from that being
a part of that group.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Right, because it's not just about my friends who
are coming for part of the day.
It's also about my friends thatare with me all day.
They're also learning thingsfrom our other friends.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I know we tried things a little different last
year than we had before too.
We did more of that inclusionfrom day one, from the get-go
First thing in the morning, dayone, and so this is kind of off
script a little bit.
What did you see?
The difference in benefits asfar as starting from the day one
(09:08):
to just the hey, why don't youcome on Friday?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So just looking back at those years, so when my
friends started coming on thevery first day of school, there
was no difference.
They had no.
The students that were in myroom all day had no idea that
(09:32):
these friends were any differentthan them.
They like, oh, they're comingin, we have another adult in
here for a little while and lookhow fun this is.
Look at these new friends andthey just they were more
accepting and they built betterrelationships with those
(09:54):
students and that makes my hearthappy, that they're together.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yes, it's really, it's really neat to see.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
But that's I mean.
That's what I really noticedwas relationships were formed
and they were a part of ourclass.
It was never like, oh, we needto.
You know like oh, we have to goget them, or whatever.
It was like when are theycoming?
We have to have them in ourroom, they need to do this with
us.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Like it was student driven right and teacher driven,
if that makes sense, yeahabsolutely yeah, because you
know there's, there's a, there'sa big difference between
teacher driven and studentdriven.
You know that, um, probablybetter than we do, uh, but it's,
it is not.
It is not, um, out of the realmof possibility that a teacher,
(10:52):
and for whatever reason, may notunderstand, not be trained in
dealing with students that havedifferent exceptionalities.
But there are teachers thatdon't want anything to do with
them, and not from a nasty likeI can't stand that kid or
anything like that, but hey, Idon't know how to help him.
(11:12):
So if I'm a teacher that feelsthat way, like having a special
education or special needsstudent in my classroom causes
my anxiety to skyrocket.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to approachthem.
I don't know what to do.
(11:34):
I don't know how to approachthem.
I don't know what are somestrategies or ideas, or maybe
even a mindset that you wouldrecommend to that teacher.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Well, first strategies.
Like my first thing would be we.
Well, I feel like we, you guys,the courtesy for myself had a
great relationship and I couldgo to you and say, hey, what can
I do to help, or how can I havethis child be more successful,
(12:01):
what are some strategies I canimplement?
So I really feel like beingable to talk to the special
education teacher, have a littleco-teaching going on, if that's
possible.
You have a co-teacher almostevery year and I love it.
So have a co-teacher, a littlecollaboration.
(12:21):
Those are some important thingsand I mean, I don't know, maybe
my mindset is different, butthese are children.
They want to be a part of this.
I want them to be a part of it.
I need to adapt myself to helpthem be in my room so that they
(12:44):
are successful.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And I promise listen to everybody that's listening to
this, which is pretty much mymom.
I don't know if anybody elselistens to it, but she enjoys it
.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I'm pretty sure other people do, because I do it.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
We didn't tell you what to say.
Okay, so you're echoing a lotof things that we've said over
and over, and one of the thingsthat we've seen in our study and
in our research is what youwere just talking about the
collaboration piece.
In our study and in ourresearch is what you were just
talking about, the collaborationpiece people being willing to
talk to each other, to work witheach other, to support each
other for that common goal,which is let's help this child
(13:23):
be everything that they can be.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, absolutely Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I was going to say, and also I know last year you
guys sent a support personduring that time that my friends
were able to be with us andthat was also very helpful
because she was able to say like, oh, if you do this, or maybe
(13:46):
try this, or you know, I mightsay to her like oh, oh, I don't
know, like I wasn't supposed to.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Like, take the little things right there are no more
things this year.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
No more things, no more things okay so, but she was
like very, you know, and it itprevented problems that could
have occurred.
And she's like, yeah, that'sfine, like Like it's not.
You know, I'm like, oh okay, Ijust didn't know.
So it was very helpful to havethat support person there.
And then, you know, there weretimes that I didn't even need
(14:22):
her there, even though I wantedher all the time, but she would
be like I can't, I can't come atthis time, but my friends can
come this time, but my friendscan't come.
And so then I knew how to makethe room successful for them.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Always the support of everyone else around.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Ain't that the truth, though?
Like the more people you canhave on on the same page as you,
on the same team as you, Ithink everybody wins.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I agree.
I agree, especially our friends.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh, yes, so we've talked about some of the
effective strategies and helping.
What are some of the challengesthat you've had when trying to
make the inclusive classroom?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Oh Lord, okay.
So I wrote some notes aboutthis.
So, like some of the thingslike I think I mentioned, like
there were things that I didn'tknow and I would ask about that,
like, okay, what about this,this?
(15:39):
How do I work around this?
Um, and then a lot of like umagain working with the
co-teachers, talking to you guys, um, I feel like I just got off
track.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I don't know why I?
I mean, you're just a teacher,right?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Your job's a cake walker in the day.
You can't just come in here andI know All our brains are
probably mush right now.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
We're fine.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I guess some things that helped me, like lots of
differentiated instruction,always, always, no matter what.
I just that's every day, and sothat was very beneficial to
help with that inclusiveclassroom and just knowing what
(16:28):
they can do and how to help themmove along and succeed further.
Lots of like scaffolding, whatI'm supposed to be telling you
guys.
Yep, I keep bringing up thethought of visual aids, like
schedules, those kinds of things, so they would know, like this
(16:50):
is what is is happening now andthis is what will happen next.
Um, and then I did do pairinglike with other students, like,
okay, you, you know, remind ourfriends to blah, blah you know,
whatever it might be like yourchromebook or to log in anyway.
So those were some things that Ifelt were helpful in the
(17:12):
classroom.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
So, like some of the challenges were how do you teach
them right?
So those are the strategiesthat you use.
I'm sorry.
No, that's fine.
I'm giving you all thestrategies I was using.
Right?
No, I mean you answered thesecond part, because the second
part, you know was how did youdo?
Those.
So it's difficult to instructstudents with so much vast
(17:45):
Abilities, yes, abilities, yeah,their abilities are vast.
There's differences in that,and so those are some of the
things that you use to addressthat.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yes, I'm sorry.
I knew I was like I just lostmy train of thought.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
No, but did you and we see this sometimes and we
hear this and I know that we'vehad conversations during
meetings about that, that whole,you know fair?
Did you have kids in theclassroom going?
Well, that's not fair.
How come so-and-so gets this,or how come so-and-so?
Why can't I have that when theycan?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
No.
I never did that because Iimplemented at the beginning of
the year.
Even every year I've alwayssaid fair is not equal, fair is
everyone getting what they needand I never had anyone say, well
, that's not fair.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That's absolutely true, yep.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
One of my favorite things to do when a student says
that's not fair is can you tellme what fair means and they
can't?
They just look at me like no,that's not what you.
Can you tell me what fair meansand they can't.
They just look at me like no,that's not what you're supposed
to say.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
But yeah, so I did not.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, well, and that's the way to address it,
just like if you did have thatand just by telling them you
know we get what we need and noteverything we want, and we
don't always need everythingsomebody else has.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And I think that's one of the big benefits.
Of inclusion is when they, whenour friends, start at the
beginning of the year with us,then there never is any question
of like, oh why are theygetting that and I'm not, or
that's not fair again.
(19:35):
You know, I always say thatevery year fair is not equal
fair.
Is everyone getting what theyneed.
So I just I've never really hadanybody say anything about that
, and that's great.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Well, that's something that we even realized
this year, because you know,even as an educator, it's a
continual learning process andwe've learned that, especially
when it comes to specialeducation, that it is a
continuum.
You're all the time looking tosee what's going to be the next
step for each individual andbeing flexible and willing to.
(20:15):
Our whole thing is is this ahill I'm willing to die on right
?
Is this something that I'm, amI ready to?
It's got to be really importantif I'm going to put myself all
into it, and we really doappreciate your perspective and
what you've done with ourstudents.
So here we go, ready.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Oh gosh, I got another question.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Now this one, this one should be.
Oh, who did I hear?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Did he know you were getting ready to talk about him?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I don't know.
Well, I wasn't, but we can dothat.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So I'm sorry, I thought that's where you were
headed.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
No, I was just going to throw out this last question.
You go ahead, Mrs Curtis.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Well, part of this goes from.
So we talked about you being afirst grade teacher.
Do you feel like there'sbenefits at starting the
inclusion process early versuswaiting until they're a little
more independent and mature andmaybe have better behaviors, and
what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I think it should start as early as possible, like
I think we should haveinclusion, start in pre-K or
kindergarten whenever thosestudents enter school.
Because you I think we'vetalked about this before you
model peer behavior and so ifthere is a behavior they might
(21:49):
see those other friends modelingappropriate behavior and then,
that would you know, they wouldbegin to model appropriate
behavior as well.
But yes, I think it shouldstart immediately Kindergarten,
pre-k, whenever students start.
You know Lawson, my son startedpre-K, pre-k, regular ed, pre-k
(22:18):
last year and just so manybenefits, so many benefits for
him.
So yes, I think it should startimmediately when children start
school.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Mr Curtis is like wrap it up.
No, no, no, no, not at all.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
No, we're good.
Hey, listen, we are.
You're preaching to the choir,we're, you know, back here
singing the hallelujahs orwhatever, but no, and just so
you know that the Department ofEducation agrees with you.
So, like coming down from thefederal government, I just want
to throw that out there.
So you're on to something there, ms Limpert.
Okay, now Lawson.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Who's Lawson?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
That's my baby.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
We know who he is Lawson is my six-year-old, or he
will be six in February, sosoon he will turn six and he is
in kindergarten this year and heis autistic.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So, then, you have yet another perspective when it
comes to our students, not justthe special education students
that spend time with you in yourclassroom, in your general
education classroom, but you'veseen the effects personally with
your own son.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Do you mind sharing with us some of the things that
you've seen, the benefits of him?
You've mentioned that there arebenefits.
What have you seen in Lawson inthe time that he's been able to
go from a special educationsetting to?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
I'm sure y'all hear him in the background.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's quite all right.
Hey listen if that was theworst that we could hear.
We're.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
A-OK, I'm sorry, no, no, no, it's all good.
So he was in special education,pre-k, and then when he turned
four, I was like you know what,if I don't try putting him in
the regular education program,like he's still gonna receive
(24:17):
all of his ip services yes,ma'am oh, I'm going to try it,
I'm going to see.
And, um, I mean, you guys workwith special education students
so you know that mostfive-year-old autistic children
do not pretend play and I agreethat all play.
(24:40):
You know, it doesn't matter theway you play, it's all play.
But he never did pretend playand probably about four months
after school started andprobably about four months after
(25:01):
school started, like he wascoming home and getting like
toys out that you would have topretend and the people talk and
like whatever.
So he was starting to dopretend play and he was able to
sit and listen to a teacher reada story and he could answer,
you know, basic comprehensionquestions about it.
He was accepted by his peers.
You know he still jumps up andclaps and does those things, but
(25:27):
no one is like why are youdoing that?
Because that's just who he isand the other children are like
oh yeah, that's him.
They move on about the day.
He's also a Gestalt languageprocessor and so he's in like
stage five right now.
(25:49):
So he's close to moving intosix and even this year just
listening to him talk like he'shaving conversations that he
would have never had before, andI always say I remember when my
older boys I have two olderboys they would say like mom,
(26:10):
look, look, watch this, look,look.
And I think I can remember onetime that Lawson said that to me
.
But this school year he said itmultiple times.
Like mommy, look at this.
Or look at my work, like he'llshow me stuff.
So that's all.
Like he would have never donethat if he was not with those
(26:31):
peers and his special educationteam and his regular education
team.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So those are my benefits All right?
What did you have to do to gethim from the you know, the small
group special educationclassroom into the general
education classroom?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
So he was in Babies, can't Wait at, you know, before
he turned three, turned three,and I did put him in special
education, pre-k.
And, like I said that secondyear, I was like he's four, I'm
going to try it.
And so we just had to have anIEP meeting.
So we had an IEP meeting, wemet with the IEP team and I said
(27:16):
, look, I want, I want him here.
Like, I'm driving this meeting,I'm the one in control, this is
where I want him.
I want to try it.
If it doesn't work, we can goback.
Right, so that is what I did.
Then, um again, like he doeshave supports in place this year
(27:41):
, because he does need someonewith him at lunch and he does
need someone with him during theday for about a 30 minute block
during like a writing time,right.
So those things are in place,but other than that, that's how
we did it.
I drove that meeting and I saidthis is what I want and this is
(28:02):
how I want it done, and if itdoesn't work, we can revisit and
regroup and make up anotherplan that's going to be the most
beneficial for him.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
But we have to try, yes.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
We always have to try , but we have to try.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes, we always have to try.
Always have to try, Because ifyou don't, you don't know.
That is correct.
And I know that you talkedabout the behaviors and it's not
always the case, but howeverthere's, you know, when there's
a special education, small groupclassroom, there's typically
behaviors that come along withthat Not always, but typically.
And so I know we've spokenbefore and you said well, if
(28:38):
he's going to mimic behaviors,where do you want him to be?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
With his neurotypical peers Right yeah absolutely,
and so if somebody is listeningto this and they don't get
anything else out of thisconversation, which I want to
say thank you for being willingto talk to us about all this.
It really has been great.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
I really do enjoy it.
I'm sorry I went off on atangent.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
But what I would want a listener to take, if they can
only take one thing, is that,like you said I love the way you
put it you drive the bus,parent.
If you want to try it, try it.
It doesn't matter what anybodyelse says.
If you want to try it, try it,and there's no shame in trying
and going back.
(29:26):
I don't want to say going backbecause it's not what it is Okay
, so then we'll move to thisother setting.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
It's just finding the best setting for your child and
if you don't try and give themthe opportunity, you will never
know.
And as a team, you have a wholeteam of people to help you set
your child up for success.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yep, and that's one thing that we can say, both
having boys that have gonethrough the uh, the camp.
Our school system is that wehave some fantastic teachers, uh
, in this district, and, and Iam willing to bet that there's
fantastic teachers in everydistrict and that any parent
(30:15):
that feels like their son ordaughter should have an
opportunity to at least try itout.
Push for that, because there'speople in those buildings that
love your kid too.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yes, people, you don't even know.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So I think that's about it.
Ms Lumber, did you haveanything else you wanted to say?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
No, thank you guys for having me on here, and I
miss seeing you every day.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
We miss seeing you too, and thanks for coming on,
and you were our first guest, sowe thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yep, you're at the top of the list.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I give my little reward now, my little treat.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
There you go.
Hey, be checking the schoolmail, we'll send it over.
All right, so for this episode,we're going to go ahead and
wrap it up Again.
Thank you, ms Limpert, forhanging out with me and my
fantastic wife, laura, and we'lltalk to you guys later.
so, laura, I'm super excited about this particular
recording.
Go ahead ask me why.
Why, jared?
I'm glad you asked so we get tohave as part of our podcast
somebody that we have had theprivilege of working with, um,
spending time with, sharingchurns with in the school
(00:25):
setting, and she has agreed tocome chit chat with us and I'm
super excited about that.
Would you like to introduce her?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Sure, so on the line here.
Is that what we call it, stillon the line.
I mean it's on the computer,but okay, so we have the first
grade teacher.
She's the first grade teacherthat we worked with for many
years and she was actuallyimplemental.
(00:56):
Is that the right word?
Implemental?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Instrumental.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Instrumental.
There we go, see Lane, youdon't have to worry about it, I
mess up all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
See, look, you already said her name before
introducing her.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know, I know Instrumental and actually the
inclusion process of our kids.
She came to us and said, hey,let me have that one.
Can I have that one for alittle while in my classroom?
And what about this one?
Can that one come too to well?
Can they come a little bit morewell?
How about a little bit more?
And so that just opened thatwhole realm of inclusion.
(01:29):
So we have, for the pastseveral years, shared many
students, and so this is lanelimpert, and she has, she has
experience.
She is a general educationteacher that has much experience
working with special educationstudents of all abilities and
(01:52):
she also is a parent of a childwith special needs as well.
But we're double dipping here,because she's got some great
insight on how to include ourkids in the general education
(02:13):
classroom and she also hasinsight on how a parent can get
their child included in theclassroom with their typically
developing peers.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So, Ms Lumber, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I'm fine, I'm so glad you guys let me come on here
tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So, first things first.
What is your deepest, darkestsecret?
Go, never mind.
Now you know that is a questionthat if we ever get your
principal on here with us, Iwill not ask her because I feel
like she would go ahead and tellthe world.
I'm going to leave it at that.
No names, no, nothing else,just All right.
(02:47):
So we're going to have a chitchat about inclusion.
Now Laura and I can get on hereand we can talk all day long
about kids need needed to beincluded with their peers.
All of that we can do it to ourblue in the face, but sometimes
when somebody hears it fromsomebody else, it clicks, and so
(03:07):
we're going to have a quickdiscussion about that, about
inclusion, and I got to tell youso your name has kind of become
a descriptor for us Like allright, so who on the
kindergarten team will be ourlimpert?
Who on the third grade team isgoing to be our limpert?
So you are like the lens thatwe view everybody through.
But no pressure, okay.
(03:31):
So if you don't mind, can youkind of give us a little bit of
an idea of what it was that?
Because, like laura said, Imean you.
You wanted to spend time withour students.
It wasn't necessarily like wewent after you and we're begging
you to spend time with them.
What is it that that kind ofcaused you to want to have them
(03:51):
in your classroom?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Well, so really I just loved them and I would just
see them and talk to them andthey would talk to me.
We had, we built a littlerelationship together and I was
like you know what, why can'tthey come with us to recess, and
why can't they come with us toresource?
(04:13):
Or why don't they come for FunFriday or something fun?
Because their peers are here,let's take them over.
So then I just kind of startedasking Miss Curtis like hey, do
you mind if I like borrow yourstudent?
Like I think they would reallyenjoy this activity.
(04:35):
And so she let me.
And so then we just kind ofkept going from there.
But I just saw those babies andjust to build a relationship
with them.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, and it certainly did snowball.
It went from one student to Idon't know.
I think we were sending likethree or four at one time or
something like that.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Yeah, I think we had like four come in during
resource, which that was fun.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
So, so what did you see?
You see, now let me ask youthis, miss limper, how long have
you been a teacher?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
oh my goodness, 19 years, fantastic you know you.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You are and I mean this in the most respectful way
you are an oddity like I'mreading all the time these
papers about people bailing onthe teaching field because it's
hard and Laura brings up a lot.
I mean, it was hard prior toCOVID, but then after that it
added just a whole nother layer.
So thank you for being willingto do all of that, because it
(05:39):
ain't the easiest job in theworld.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And I know you're not there for the money.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I'm just there for the babies.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Right.
We know that.
We know that.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So, over the course of your 19 years, what would you
say were some key benefits thatyou've observed in students who
participate in your classroomthat typically aren't in your
classroom?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Well, I noticed.
Do you want me to talk aboutlike socially?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Hey, you talk about whatever you want to within
reason.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
So, socially, I noticed, like my friends who
were coming, they were learninghow to interact with their
neurotypical peers.
They were buildingrelationships with them, they
were building confidence.
I mean, I had a student thatcame to me and had a great
(06:38):
relationship with anotherstudent in my class and they
communicated in a different waythan using words all the time
and that was beneficial to bothof those students because you
know they were both learningfrom each other.
So, socially, I just reallyfeel like they were building
(07:00):
relationships.
Am I rambling?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
No, ma'am, you're good.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Okay.
So you know they were buildingrelationships with other
students, they're learning fromother students, they're being
able to communicate with thosestudents, building confidence
and their self-esteem.
Those are some things that Inoticed.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Well, and we've even seen, as a testament to what
you're talking about.
We've seen relationships thatwere forged in your classroom
that are still happening today.
Like these, students will seeeach other from each side of the
cafeteria and, of course, it'sour student that'll be the one
that yells out to the other one,but they're still there.
(07:44):
And so what you've done, andany teacher that does provide
that inclusion space with theheart that you're talking about,
I want to see these childrenbecome everything that they
possibly can, whatever thatmeans.
How can we help them do that?
And it's something that isstretched beyond your classroom.
(08:06):
It's stretched beyond a singleyear in school.
I know we had one parent tellus of a student that went to you
that they were just blown awayat how many people, like, how
many kids, knew their child, andit all stemmed from that being
a part of that group.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Right, because it's not just about my friends who
are coming for part of the day.
It's also about my friends thatare with me all day.
They're also learning thingsfrom our other friends.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I know we tried things a little different last
year than we had before too.
We did more of that inclusionfrom day one, from the get-go
First thing in the morning, dayone, and so this is kind of off
script a little bit.
What did you see?
The difference in benefits asfar as starting from the day one
(09:08):
to just the hey, why don't youcome on Friday?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So just looking back at those years, so when my
friends started coming on thevery first day of school, there
was no difference.
They had no.
The students that were in myroom all day had no idea that
(09:32):
these friends were any differentthan them.
They like, oh, they're comingin, we have another adult in
here for a little while and lookhow fun this is.
Look at these new friends andthey just they were more
accepting and they built betterrelationships with those
(09:54):
students and that makes my hearthappy, that they're together.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yes, it's really, it's really neat to see.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
But that's I mean.
That's what I really noticedwas relationships were formed
and they were a part of ourclass.
It was never like, oh, we needto.
You know like oh, we have to goget them, or whatever.
It was like when are theycoming?
We have to have them in ourroom, they need to do this with
us.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Like it was student driven right and teacher driven,
if that makes sense, yeahabsolutely yeah, because you
know there's, there's a, there'sa big difference between
teacher driven and studentdriven.
You know that, um, probablybetter than we do, uh, but it's,
it is not.
It is not, um, out of the realmof possibility that a teacher,
(10:52):
and for whatever reason, may notunderstand, not be trained in
dealing with students that havedifferent exceptionalities.
But there are teachers thatdon't want anything to do with
them, and not from a nasty likeI can't stand that kid or
anything like that, but hey, Idon't know how to help him.
(11:12):
So if I'm a teacher that feelsthat way, like having a special
education or special needsstudent in my classroom causes
my anxiety to skyrocket.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to approachthem.
I don't know what to do.
(11:34):
I don't know how to approachthem.
I don't know what are somestrategies or ideas, or maybe
even a mindset that you wouldrecommend to that teacher.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Well, first strategies.
Like my first thing would be we.
Well, I feel like we, you guys,the courtesy for myself had a
great relationship and I couldgo to you and say, hey, what can
I do to help, or how can I havethis child be more successful,
(12:01):
what are some strategies I canimplement?
So I really feel like beingable to talk to the special
education teacher, have a littleco-teaching going on, if that's
possible.
You have a co-teacher almostevery year and I love it.
So have a co-teacher, a littlecollaboration.
(12:21):
Those are some important thingsand I mean, I don't know, maybe
my mindset is different, butthese are children.
They want to be a part of this.
I want them to be a part of it.
I need to adapt myself to helpthem be in my room so that they
(12:44):
are successful.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And I promise listen to everybody that's listening to
this, which is pretty much mymom.
I don't know if anybody elselistens to it, but she enjoys it
.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I'm pretty sure other people do, because I do it.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
We didn't tell you what to say.
Okay, so you're echoing a lotof things that we've said over
and over, and one of the thingsthat we've seen in our study and
in our research is what youwere just talking about the
collaboration piece.
In our study and in ourresearch is what you were just
talking about, the collaborationpiece people being willing to
talk to each other, to work witheach other, to support each
other for that common goal,which is let's help this child
(13:23):
be everything that they can be.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, absolutely Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I was going to say, and also I know last year you
guys sent a support personduring that time that my friends
were able to be with us andthat was also very helpful
because she was able to say like, oh, if you do this, or maybe
(13:46):
try this, or you know, I mightsay to her like oh, oh, I don't
know, like I wasn't supposed to.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Like, take the little things right there are no more
things this year.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
No more things, no more things okay so, but she was
like very, you know, and it itprevented problems that could
have occurred.
And she's like, yeah, that'sfine, like Like it's not.
You know, I'm like, oh okay, Ijust didn't know.
So it was very helpful to havethat support person there.
And then, you know, there weretimes that I didn't even need
(14:22):
her there, even though I wantedher all the time, but she would
be like I can't, I can't come atthis time, but my friends can
come this time, but my friendscan't come.
And so then I knew how to makethe room successful for them.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Always the support of everyone else around.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Ain't that the truth, though?
Like the more people you canhave on on the same page as you,
on the same team as you, Ithink everybody wins.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I agree.
I agree, especially our friends.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh, yes, so we've talked about some of the
effective strategies and helping.
What are some of the challengesthat you've had when trying to
make the inclusive classroom?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Oh Lord, okay.
So I wrote some notes aboutthis.
So, like some of the thingslike I think I mentioned, like
there were things that I didn'tknow and I would ask about that,
like, okay, what about this,this?
(15:39):
How do I work around this?
Um, and then a lot of like umagain working with the
co-teachers, talking to you guys, um, I feel like I just got off
track.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I don't know why I?
I mean, you're just a teacher,right?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Your job's a cake walker in the day.
You can't just come in here andI know All our brains are
probably mush right now.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
We're fine.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I guess some things that helped me, like lots of
differentiated instruction,always, always, no matter what.
I just that's every day, and sothat was very beneficial to
help with that inclusiveclassroom and just knowing what
(16:28):
they can do and how to help themmove along and succeed further.
Lots of like scaffolding, whatI'm supposed to be telling you
guys.
Yep, I keep bringing up thethought of visual aids, like
schedules, those kinds of things, so they would know, like this
(16:50):
is what is is happening now andthis is what will happen next.
Um, and then I did do pairinglike with other students, like,
okay, you, you know, remind ourfriends to blah, blah you know,
whatever it might be like yourchromebook or to log in anyway.
So those were some things that Ifelt were helpful in the
(17:12):
classroom.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
So, like some of the challenges were how do you teach
them right?
So those are the strategiesthat you use.
I'm sorry.
No, that's fine.
I'm giving you all thestrategies I was using.
Right?
No, I mean you answered thesecond part, because the second
part, you know was how did youdo?
Those.
So it's difficult to instructstudents with so much vast
(17:45):
Abilities, yes, abilities, yeah,their abilities are vast.
There's differences in that,and so those are some of the
things that you use to addressthat.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yes, I'm sorry.
I knew I was like I just lostmy train of thought.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
No, but did you and we see this sometimes and we
hear this and I know that we'vehad conversations during
meetings about that, that whole,you know fair?
Did you have kids in theclassroom going?
Well, that's not fair.
How come so-and-so gets this,or how come so-and-so?
Why can't I have that when theycan?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
No.
I never did that because Iimplemented at the beginning of
the year.
Even every year I've alwayssaid fair is not equal, fair is
everyone getting what they needand I never had anyone say, well
, that's not fair.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That's absolutely true, yep.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
One of my favorite things to do when a student says
that's not fair is can you tellme what fair means and they
can't?
They just look at me like no,that's not what you.
Can you tell me what fair meansand they can't.
They just look at me like no,that's not what you're supposed
to say.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
But yeah, so I did not.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, well, and that's the way to address it,
just like if you did have thatand just by telling them you
know we get what we need and noteverything we want, and we
don't always need everythingsomebody else has.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And I think that's one of the big benefits.
Of inclusion is when they, whenour friends, start at the
beginning of the year with us,then there never is any question
of like, oh why are theygetting that and I'm not, or
that's not fair again.
(19:35):
You know, I always say thatevery year fair is not equal
fair.
Is everyone getting what theyneed.
So I just I've never really hadanybody say anything about that
, and that's great.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Well, that's something that we even realized
this year, because you know,even as an educator, it's a
continual learning process andwe've learned that, especially
when it comes to specialeducation, that it is a
continuum.
You're all the time looking tosee what's going to be the next
step for each individual andbeing flexible and willing to.
(20:15):
Our whole thing is is this ahill I'm willing to die on right
?
Is this something that I'm, amI ready to?
It's got to be really importantif I'm going to put myself all
into it, and we really doappreciate your perspective and
what you've done with ourstudents.
So here we go, ready.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Oh gosh, I got another question.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Now this one, this one should be.
Oh, who did I hear?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Did he know you were getting ready to talk about him?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I don't know.
Well, I wasn't, but we can dothat.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So I'm sorry, I thought that's where you were
headed.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
No, I was just going to throw out this last question.
You go ahead, Mrs Curtis.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Well, part of this goes from.
So we talked about you being afirst grade teacher.
Do you feel like there'sbenefits at starting the
inclusion process early versuswaiting until they're a little
more independent and mature andmaybe have better behaviors, and
what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I think it should start as early as possible, like
I think we should haveinclusion, start in pre-K or
kindergarten whenever thosestudents enter school.
Because you I think we'vetalked about this before you
model peer behavior and so ifthere is a behavior they might
(21:49):
see those other friends modelingappropriate behavior and then,
that would you know, they wouldbegin to model appropriate
behavior as well.
But yes, I think it shouldstart immediately Kindergarten,
pre-k, whenever students start.
You know Lawson, my son startedpre-K, pre-k, regular ed, pre-k
(22:18):
last year and just so manybenefits, so many benefits for
him.
So yes, I think it should startimmediately when children start
school.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Mr Curtis is like wrap it up.
No, no, no, no, not at all.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
No, we're good.
Hey, listen, we are.
You're preaching to the choir,we're, you know, back here
singing the hallelujahs orwhatever, but no, and just so
you know that the Department ofEducation agrees with you.
So, like coming down from thefederal government, I just want
to throw that out there.
So you're on to something there, ms Limpert.
Okay, now Lawson.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Who's Lawson?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
That's my baby.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
We know who he is Lawson is my six-year-old, or he
will be six in February, sosoon he will turn six and he is
in kindergarten this year and heis autistic.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So, then, you have yet another perspective when it
comes to our students, not justthe special education students
that spend time with you in yourclassroom, in your general
education classroom, but you'veseen the effects personally with
your own son.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Do you mind sharing with us some of the things that
you've seen, the benefits of him?
You've mentioned that there arebenefits.
What have you seen in Lawson inthe time that he's been able to
go from a special educationsetting to?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
I'm sure y'all hear him in the background.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's quite all right.
Hey listen if that was theworst that we could hear.
We're.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
A-OK, I'm sorry, no, no, no, it's all good.
So he was in special education,pre-k, and then when he turned
four, I was like you know what,if I don't try putting him in
the regular education program,like he's still gonna receive
(24:17):
all of his ip services yes,ma'am oh, I'm going to try it,
I'm going to see.
And, um, I mean, you guys workwith special education students
so you know that mostfive-year-old autistic children
do not pretend play and I agreethat all play.
(24:40):
You know, it doesn't matter theway you play, it's all play.
But he never did pretend playand probably about four months
after school started andprobably about four months after
(25:01):
school started, like he wascoming home and getting like
toys out that you would have topretend and the people talk and
like whatever.
So he was starting to dopretend play and he was able to
sit and listen to a teacher reada story and he could answer,
you know, basic comprehensionquestions about it.
He was accepted by his peers.
You know he still jumps up andclaps and does those things, but
(25:27):
no one is like why are youdoing that?
Because that's just who he isand the other children are like
oh yeah, that's him.
They move on about the day.
He's also a Gestalt languageprocessor and so he's in like
stage five right now.
(25:49):
So he's close to moving intosix and even this year just
listening to him talk like he'shaving conversations that he
would have never had before, andI always say I remember when my
older boys I have two olderboys they would say like mom,
(26:10):
look, look, watch this, look,look.
And I think I can remember onetime that Lawson said that to me
.
But this school year he said itmultiple times.
Like mommy, look at this.
Or look at my work, like he'llshow me stuff.
So that's all.
Like he would have never donethat if he was not with those
(26:31):
peers and his special educationteam and his regular education
team.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So those are my benefits All right?
What did you have to do to gethim from the you know, the small
group special educationclassroom into the general
education classroom?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
So he was in Babies, can't Wait at, you know, before
he turned three, turned three,and I did put him in special
education, pre-k.
And, like I said that secondyear, I was like he's four, I'm
going to try it.
And so we just had to have anIEP meeting.
So we had an IEP meeting, wemet with the IEP team and I said
(27:16):
, look, I want, I want him here.
Like, I'm driving this meeting,I'm the one in control, this is
where I want him.
I want to try it.
If it doesn't work, we can goback.
Right, so that is what I did.
Then, um again, like he doeshave supports in place this year
(27:41):
, because he does need someonewith him at lunch and he does
need someone with him during theday for about a 30 minute block
during like a writing time,right.
So those things are in place,but other than that, that's how
we did it.
I drove that meeting and I saidthis is what I want and this is
(28:02):
how I want it done, and if itdoesn't work, we can revisit and
regroup and make up anotherplan that's going to be the most
beneficial for him.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
But we have to try, yes.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
We always have to try , but we have to try.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes, we always have to try.
Always have to try, Because ifyou don't, you don't know.
That is correct.
And I know that you talkedabout the behaviors and it's not
always the case, but howeverthere's, you know, when there's
a special education, small groupclassroom, there's typically
behaviors that come along withthat Not always, but typically.
And so I know we've spokenbefore and you said well, if
(28:38):
he's going to mimic behaviors,where do you want him to be?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
With his neurotypical peers Right yeah absolutely,
and so if somebody is listeningto this and they don't get
anything else out of thisconversation, which I want to
say thank you for being willingto talk to us about all this.
It really has been great.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
I really do enjoy it.
I'm sorry I went off on atangent.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
But what I would want a listener to take, if they can
only take one thing, is that,like you said I love the way you
put it you drive the bus,parent.
If you want to try it, try it.
It doesn't matter what anybodyelse says.
If you want to try it, try it,and there's no shame in trying
and going back.
(29:26):
I don't want to say going backbecause it's not what it is Okay
, so then we'll move to thisother setting.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
It's just finding the best setting for your child and
if you don't try and give themthe opportunity, you will never
know.
And as a team, you have a wholeteam of people to help you set
your child up for success.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yep, and that's one thing that we can say, both
having boys that have gonethrough the uh, the camp.
Our school system is that wehave some fantastic teachers, uh
, in this district, and, and Iam willing to bet that there's
fantastic teachers in everydistrict and that any parent
(30:15):
that feels like their son ordaughter should have an
opportunity to at least try itout.
Push for that, because there'speople in those buildings that
love your kid too.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yes, people, you don't even know.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So I think that's about it.
Ms Lumber, did you haveanything else you wanted to say?
Speaker 3 (30:37):
No, thank you guys for having me on here, and I
miss seeing you every day.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
We miss seeing you too, and thanks for coming on,
and you were our first guest, sowe thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yep, you're at the top of the list.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I give my little reward now, my little treat.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
There you go.
Hey, be checking the schoolmail, we'll send it over.
All right, so for this episode,we're going to go ahead and
wrap it up Again.
Thank you, ms Limpert, forhanging out with me and my
fantastic wife, laura, and we'lltalk to you guys later.
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