December 16, 2024 • 35 mins
Can discipline truly be separated from punishment, especially when it comes to special needs education? Join us as we unravel this complex relationship, beginning with a humorous nod to the Miami Dolphins’ most recent game, before transitioning to a deeper conversation about guiding children toward positive behavior. We promise you'll discover how effective discipline focuses on growth and safety rather than punishment, using real-life stories and professional insights from both home and school environments.
Explore the nuanced world of reinforcement and discipline with us, where we demystify negative reinforcement and its distinction from punishment. We share practical examples, like the strategic use of seatbelt warnings or classroom techniques, to illustrate how removing discomfort can lead to desired behaviors. It's all about setting priorities and understanding each child's unique challenges, and you'll hear how we balance kindness with the boundaries necessary for positive development. Through personal anecdotes, we reveal the thoughtful balance required to nurture healthy behaviors in children with special needs.
Finally, we delve into strategies for tackling behavioral challenges one step at a time, preventing overwhelm for both parents and teachers. Learn about the blend of positive and negative reinforcement tools—like sticker charts and treasure boxes—and the grace needed to foster good behavior. Our improved recording atmosphere even made a noticeable difference in our conversation, and we’re excited to share actionable advice on identifying and addressing behavioral priorities in a way that's manageable and effective. Let’s embrace the journey of guiding children towards better choices together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
welcome back to the newest episode.
I don't know why I always saywelcome back.
So welcome back to life in thelife in the iep tribe.
This is the newest episode, um,and, interesting enough, it
it's our second attempt at thisweek's recording because, well,
(00:25):
if we're going to be honest, werecorded an entire episode and
we thought it was doo-doo, sowe're giving it another try,
right, because that's what we do.
I'm a little upset becausewe're recording this on Sunday
and I just got done watching theDolphins lose again, and so
(00:50):
this should be an interestingconversation.
I'm going to do my very best tonot be stuck in like a dark
headspace because I allow theDolphins to mess with me too
much.
I've been pulling for this teamsince I was like six, seven
years old, and all they do isplay with my emotions.
It's like probably the mostabusive relationship I've ever
(01:13):
been in in my life, because I Imean, I buy stuff, right, I wear
dolphins gear and what do theygive me?
Heartache, that is it.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
And finger nubs yeah, I like to eat my fingers.
I mean, yeah, I like to eat myfingers.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I mean I don't like to eat my fingers, but that's
kind of my response.
What's crazy is it doesn't evenmatter.
It does not matter one bit whathappens on that television,
because you know what, at theend of the day, I don't play for
the Dolphins, I don't get paidby them, no, I don't have to do
any of that.
But I tell you what it's aninteresting sport.
(01:45):
So in the game that we watchedtoday there was a receiver for
the Dolphins that got hit withlike this head-to-head tackle
and the poor kid I mean theytook him out on a stretcher and
everything.
It was pretty crazy.
And of course they make allthese rules now to try to help
protect the players.
So, like you know, they can'tspear each other in the head.
(02:08):
It's going to be a penalty.
You can't grab somebody by thecollar of the shirt and pull
them down.
They have another rule whereit's like you can't do a what do
they say?
A hip drop tackle.
And they do all this becausethey want to keep these guys
(02:29):
healthy and allow them to keepplaying the game and enjoy the
game.
But anytime you have groups ofpeople and you have uh,
competition or you know, you'rein a situation where you're
trying to progress and be thebest you can be at, whatever
your specific skill oremployment or whatever the case
(02:51):
may be.
Discipline has to be involved.
We have to be able to direct,we need to tie our decision
making to something.
We can't necessarily justrespond based on feelings.
Discipline is very, very, veryimportant.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I'm willing to bet there's not many people that
have heard me say this in thelast 15 seconds that would
disagree.
However, things get kind ofweird when we start talking
about discipline and we starttalking about our children.
It even gets a little moreweird when we talk about
(03:31):
discipline and our children thatmight have special needs, and
so what we're going to do iswe're going to take the next
handful of minutes and we'regoing to discuss what part
discipline plays in ourchildren's lives.
Now we can talk from a teacherperspective as well as from a
(03:55):
parent perspective.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So tell me, Laura, what place does discipline have
in the house of a child that hasspecial needs?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
What place does it have?
Yeah, as we've discussed before, there's not a whole lot of
(04:36):
things that Xander really reallylikes or really really dislikes
, and so disciplining can bedifficult.
However, for him to progressand to learn and grow, you have
to have discipline.
So you have to find that thingthat will make the difference
(04:57):
and help him learn and grow andstay safe.
A lot of times, our childrenwith disabilities engage in
unsafe behavior, and so you haveto have that discipline and
we're going to get into.
There's many different formswe're not just talking about
(05:18):
physical discipline, so there'sseveral different types, and so
you have to find out what worksbest.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Well, what we found is that our kids, whether it be
in our house or in our classes,they respond best to discomfort.
And now, of course, we wouldnot ever, like you know, try to
hurt a kid or anything like that.
So when we talk aboutdiscomfort, it is what can we do
(05:55):
to position this child in a waythat they just they don't like
the circumstance?
And every time I have thisconversation it reminds me of
this one student that we hadthat I remember he was being
brought to the school and whenhe got out of mom's vehicle he
started kind of acting all crazy, and so I started counting to
the kid.
You know, kind of like we dowith ours All right, one, two,
(06:17):
and then the mom was like whathappens at three?
I said, watch this.
So I went over and I held theboy's hand and that was it, and
you would have thought he wasjust about to lose his mind.
Because it's like you're makingme stand still by holding my
hand.
I can't stand this, you aremaking my life miserable.
(06:39):
And so then what happens is,you know, you get down the road
and you start doing thatcounting.
Well, the kid knows I don'twant to have to stand there and
hold Mr Curtis's hand.
That's boring, that's no fun,and so they'll come over and
walk with you and now not to saythat worked 100% of the time.
However, what had happened isthis particular student learned
(07:00):
if I don't follow the rules,then I have to do something I
don't want to do, something Ican't stand doing.
And so when we talk aboutdiscipline, we're talking about,
you know, training thesechildren up in the way that they
should go, shaping them andmolding them.
Not I'm mad at you, so now Iwant you to suffer, because
(07:37):
that's abuse Absolutely, it'snot discipline, absolutely.
We don't want them to do rightand wrong just based on whether
or not a teacher is there in theroom, but instead to learn that
I need to make safe decisions,and when I make, safe decisions,
(08:11):
I have a pretty good time withmy life versus.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
If I make unsafe decisions, then there's
consequences that I don't wantto have to deal with.
So what are some of the waysthat discipline can take place
in the home and in the classroom?
Well, first, you have to knowand identify the needs of the
child, because, as we've talkedabout before that they're all
different, they all respond todifferent things and they have
different needs.
So you need to find out what itis that they need, what they
(08:34):
understand, what they like, whatthey don't like.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So it really is individualized, much like what
we talk about as far as what wedo in the school building, it's
individualized.
You really have to take thetime to get to know the student
and kind of find what makes themtick.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Right, right.
And then what we like to tryfirst is, of course, the
positive interventions.
You know we've talked aboutbefore how, if we're trying to
make sure that a student issomething as simple as coming
(09:12):
and sitting on the floor toengage in our whole group
activity and it's something thatthey've been struggling with If
they come over and stand on thecarpet, then make a big deal
about it.
So that's one of the thingsmake a big deal about every step
(09:32):
towards the behavior thatyou're wanting the child to see.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, and it's good that you mentioned steps.
Yeah, it's good that youmentioned steps, because the one
thing that we have found isthat nothing changes overnight.
Like there's a process to helpa child get from one point to
the other, and like you'resaying so, you're talking about
okay, so I want this kid to comedown and sit on the carpet.
Well, is sitting on the carpetreally the goal?
(10:00):
Like, do we just want to see akid sit on a carpet?
Absolutely not.
We're working towards somethingthat will help direct him in
life.
Okay, well, at this time,here's appropriate behavior.
Right, at this time, this ishow I listen to the instruction
given and then wait fordirection.
So it's not just a I just wantyou to sit on a carpet, right,
(10:21):
because that's not going to helpa kid at all, but it does have
everything to do with helpingthem make those good choices.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I've encountered some students that don't like to sit
on the floor, and so not onlydo you reward them for the good
choices they make, but you alsogive them choices good choices
that you also they make, but youalso give them choices Okay,
you can sit.
You know, a lot of times I'llsay, all right, you can sit on
the blue carpet or you can sitin the blue chair, because
(10:53):
they're still followingdirections, they're still facing
the where I want them to face,where the learning is going to
happen.
But if they really have anaversion to sitting on the floor
, then they're not uncomfortable, and so that positive praise
and reinforcement and givingthem options and sometimes the
(11:16):
kids don't respond to thepositive praise and there's been
times where it's like, okay, solook at you, you walked right
on over here and found a seat soyou might hand them a Skittle
or a cheese ball or sometimes alittle sticker.
So finding those, so they knowwhat they're supposed to be
(11:38):
doing, is important.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So let me ask this question what if so?
So what if you have a student?
That is, what if you have astudent that you said you want
to give them?
Maybe they just don't want tosit, maybe that's a big deal for
them, and so you might look fora different option, right,
(12:05):
right, like maybe.
Well, instead of sitting here,maybe they can stand in this
particular area, or you know,whatever the case may be.
So my question is so what aboutbeing fair?
Is it fair to let this kidstand where all the other kids
have to sit?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Explain that to me.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Okay.
So in our house and as ourfamily, and as well as our
classrooms, we do what is fair.
However, a lot of our kids feellike fair is equal.
We don't necessarily do equalthings, because equal is getting
(12:50):
the same thing as everybodyelse, whereas fair is getting
what they each child needs to besuccessful, or each individual
needs to be successful.
So it may mean that so-and-sois permitted to walk back and
forth at the back of the carpet,while others, who we know do
(13:13):
not have an inversion of sittingon the carpet, are not allowed
to.
But if this individual ispacing back and forth but
they're also engaging, thenthat's what's fair for them.
If I make them sit on thecarpet or sit in a chair on the
carpet or sit in a chair, itcould be something that's
painful for them sensory-wiseand they will be focusing more
(13:44):
on that or getting upset andthen all learning ceases.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, so we got to be .
We have to be fair, All right.
So we talked a little bit aboutthe positive reinforcers.
So anytime you have a positive,there's always a negative.
So what is a negativereinforcement?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
A negative reinforcement is when you take,
take away something, but notnecessarily that's different
than punishment, so you're goingto take away that thing.
That's uncomfortable.
So, like we were saying, if thechild does not want to sit down
(14:22):
and I make him sit down, thenwhen I allow him to walk, that's
negative reinforcement becauseI'm taking away that
uncomfortable aspect of thedirective and reinforcing the
(14:44):
behavior that I want.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So negative reinforcers are not the same as
punishment, correct Right.
So one of the things I knowthat I had an instructor tell us
is it's very similar to thelike that beeping noise that
you'll get in the car if youdon't put your seatbelt on Right
.
So the seatbelt beeps, beeps,beeps, beeps.
(15:06):
Put the seatbelt on, noisestops.
Right so there's a negativereinforcer by making this
decision, that something's beingtaken away to make the
experience better for the child.
One example that might besomething like you know little
(15:26):
Jimmy had a great day today.
He followed the rules.
So you know what Little Jimmydidn't have to do homework.
Tonight we're not sendinghomework home right.
So it's not punishment andnegative reinforcement is not
the same thing.
So, but what was?
What would something like thatlook like in the classroom
(15:46):
setting or or even the homesetting with our, with our
children that have special needs?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
The negative reinforcement.
Yeah, I have a student that hasa work inversion.
We have a student that does notlike to complete tasks and one
of the things that they reallydo not like is having to cut and
then so if we go and cut thepieces for him and present it to
(16:20):
him already cut out, he willindependently complete his work.
So we're taking that piece thathe really does not like because
in the grand scheme that part'snot that important.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And so that he's going to fight back if we try to
make him do that.
But if the end game is that hecompletes his work, then we're
taking away the part that'suncomfortable for him.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
so he still completes his work, it's uncomfortable
for him, so he still completeshis work, and you made a comment
that I think is reallyimportant too.
Is that looking at in the grandscheme, what is it that we want
to accomplish?
So I know one of the things andwe'll probably touch on this a
little bit later is what hillare we willing to die on, right?
(17:11):
What are the things that we aregoing to?
You know, tie down to that.
This is important.
You know this has to be doneBecause, like you said, if the
kid doesn't cut the paperhimself, but by presenting the
(17:32):
pieces and the student takesthose and completes the work,
that's what we're looking for,right, right, we want to see
them complete a task.
We want to see them, and so andthere's going to be all kinds of
different opinions andperspectives on what that looks
like, but it really is importantas parents, as teachers, as
(17:57):
anybody that may work in theeducation system, because again
we've got a growing population.
You know the number of studentsthat receive services under
special education.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Or even other family members of you.
Know the children withdisabilities too, because
sometimes you have familymembers that believe that this
child should be doing this orthis child should be doing that.
So it's important to talk aboutwhat do we want them to do,
(18:27):
what do we find important andwhat are we willing to overlook.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, I know that just in our home there's
numerous stories, but one inparticular that comes to my mind
was, you know, early on in ourrelationship when Xander and
Brandon they were just littletykes then and we're staying
with you and I don't know if Iwas at school or work or
something, but you want to goahead and tell that story
(18:54):
Because I think you know thestory I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think I do.
Yeah, go ahead.
So at that time I think Xanderwas a little bit of a screen
fiend and he liked to watchmovies.
He liked to be on a computerand he would want to watch any
screen that he could get.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
At the same time.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, and so he was sitting at the table and he had
a computer and a portable DVDplayer, and this is before.
I think we had done a lot ofresearch into the harms of
allowing that.
(19:39):
And one thing he liked to do washe would watch a scene and back
it up and watch the scene andback it up.
And so he already had those twoand his brother was in the
living room on the PlayStation.
Well, he decided he also wantedto watch a movie on that
PlayStation.
And I told him no, and he didnot like that.
(20:01):
And so he started to get upsetand Brandon, being the sweet big
brother he is, was like oh,it's okay, I'm done, he can have
it.
And I said well, that's greatthat you're done, and if you
don't want to play, that's fine,but he's still not going to get
to watch the movie on this.
He has two things already thathe has, and so you can.
(20:25):
If you don't want to play,that's fine, but he's still not
going to get it.
So go ahead and decide what youwant.
And so I believe that was thetime that Xander got so mad at
me.
He proceeded to walk into theother room and vomited all over
the floor.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Mm-hmm.
So he walked from a tile floor,wood floor, to a carpeted floor
and then threw up on purpose.
Yes, good times.
But and I have you tell thatstory because there are going to
be people who know your familyor are part of your family that
(21:07):
they want to be kind, and that'sgood.
But by allowing, by allowingxander to just do whatever he
wants to does not help himprogress in his life.
As a matter of fact, whatyou're doing is you're building
this, this perspective of youknow that he can just do and get
(21:28):
whatever he wants.
Oh well, he has autism.
So right you know, just let himdo whatever because he can't
help it, right?
And what we have found is thatis definitely not the case.
You know, we've had theprivilege of teaching some
fantastic kids over the lastgolly.
I mean you've been in theschool system for much longer
(21:50):
than I have.
I mean you've been in theschool system for much longer
than I have.
But what we have found is thatthere's very few kids that we
have come into contact withwhose negative behavior is a
direct reflection of theirdisability.
Right, that there's usually acombination going on on, and
(22:15):
oftentimes what we see is whatyou experienced with with xander
is that we, we don't want torock the boat, we want to keep
our kids happy and we may havethe best intentions, but then,
but we, we grow monsters when wedo that, when we don't teach
them discipline, when we don'tteach them right and wrong, when
, when we don't teach them theimportance of following
directions, and so that's kindof.
(22:40):
One of the things that we wantto make really clear in this
conversation is that every kid,I can almost say with 100%
certainty that your child canlearn to do the right thing, can
learn to be respectful, canlearn to engage with people in a
way that is acceptable.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Right and I think a lot of misconceptions that we
found with people in Zander Ithink that there's other people
that have the samemisconceptions is that because
they have a disability, theydon't understand what they're
doing.
And a lot of times they havegotten that manipulation down
(23:36):
and they do understand whatthey're doing.
And so I think that's thatconversation I had to have with
Brandon afterwards and I toldhim I appreciated him doing what
he thought was being the kindbig brother and I wasn't just
trying to be mean.
But if I allowed Xander to justdo what he wanted and have
(23:58):
everything he wanted, I wasenabling that negative and
undesired behavior and as hegrew it would do nothing for him
but get him in trouble.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, so we've talked about positive reinforcers,
negative reinforcement.
And then here's the one that,like nobody likes to talk about,
and I get it is punishment.
Now, what is punishment?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It is according to our notes here.
We had to make notes because wefound we were just rambling
sometimes.
Yeah, so it's discouragingundesired behavior by providing
negative consequences when thebehavior occurs.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay.
So what this does notnecessarily mean is it does not
mean that punishment isinflicting physical pain.
A lot of people have differentideas on whether that's
acceptable or not, and thatconversation we're not even
going to have right now.
But what we do want to discussis the importance of discomfort
(25:03):
and we started talking aboutthis at the beginning and that
is you and putting the childrenin a position where they realize
that this I don't want to dothis.
Putting together the when I makethis type of choice, these are
the repercussions, right?
I mean, we've got students thatyou know, things like missing
(25:29):
out on certain free times, right, like not you know, okay, okay,
so you weren't following thedirections today, um, you've had
multiple opportunities to do soand because of this we're not
going to be.
We can't allow you to play withyour race car or have some
(25:49):
computer time, or right, and sowe remove things, because we've
learned that I'll quote my dadPeople don't change when they
see the light.
They change when they feel hate.
That's pretty good, wasn't it?
I should start doing somevoiceover work.
(26:10):
I should start doing somevoiceover work, but no, but
there's an awful lot of truth tothat.
Is that the times that we learnthe most.
I mean, I look at my own life.
It was pain that caused me torealize this was not a good
choice.
Discomfort, this was not a goodchoice.
(26:31):
Oh, look like, I have no money.
I have no money, I have no job.
I have no house.
I have no right, thesedifferent things that made me go
.
I don't want to live like thisanymore.
Right, and so the same conceptcan be worked out with our
students, with our children, andthat when we make decisions
(26:58):
that are harmful, there's goingto be consequences.
We are going to beuncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I remember one of the things that we used with Xander
was we had his sticker chart.
Oh, yeah.
And it was, you know, and hemade the good choice because he
was going through some thingsand we would give him a sticker
and then, at the end of whateverchosen period, there was a
(27:23):
reward.
And at that time it wastypically a movie which we had
already scaled that way back,movie which we had already
scaled that way back.
But, you know, it got to thepoint where he understood what
putting that sticker on ortaking the sticker off meant
that he, if he didn't get tothis point by making these
(27:45):
decisions, that he was not goingto get that movie at that time,
that movie at that time.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, and what we've learned is not effective is,
from the standpoint ofpunishment, not giving any grace
.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Oh right.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Right, so so realistic expectation.
I can remember when I was inkindergarten I think it was in
this class that I was in we hadthese, we, we built these little
boxes.
Well, we didn't build them,they were like milk cartons that
were cut, but they were littletreasure boxes.
(28:21):
And so every day, at the end ofthe day, the teacher would give
us you know, if we made theright decision, we got like a
gold coin or but that that andso then at the end of the week,
if you had four gold coins wouldhave been five.
On friday, you, you got this.
Like you got to go to thistreasure chest and pick out
(28:42):
something cool.
Well, I never had that.
Like, by tuesday, I've lost agold coin already.
Like, in particular, I think Ithink I got a boot or something
like that.
I don't remember what they stoodfor, but what I do remember is
thinking, well, there's nochance for me to do this, and
who cares?
Like, why am I going to bust myrear end to be good?
(29:03):
Well, you should be good justbecause you're supposed to be
good?
Okay, cool, but I'm right, okayso, but we found too that in in
dealing with our students, thatthere has to be, there has to
be grace.
Right, there has to be.
You know, if you've got sixopportunities during the course
(29:25):
of the day to earn this prize,okay, well, you need four, right
, right, because you know what Imean.
I've been on this planet forover 47 years and I constantly
make poor choices, like when Isay constantly, I mean over the
(29:46):
course of my life.
I might go days where I, hey, Idid pretty well today, right,
but typically there's going tobe something at some point in
the day where I think to myselfwow, that was just stupid.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right, I shouldn't have done that, or I shouldn't
have said that.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And so if we our children, are smart enough to
figure that out, that if okay.
So during my first block I blewit, so I did not get to move my
car around the track.
Then I have to move it everytime I move classes.
So if I didn't do it this timethen I'm not going to earn it
(30:23):
for the rest of the day.
So I'm just going to do what Iwant and it makes sense.
But if they know that, hey,it's okay.
So you struggled during thisclass and it's okay because
you'll have another chance,let's go on to this one and you
have another chance to earn yourreward.
(30:44):
You still can earn your rewardbecause they figure that out Yep
True story.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So negative reinforcers, positive
reinforcers, punishment, grace,grace, right has to all be in
there, um, and so what is the?
I think we've kind of alreadyanswered this, but what is the
best approach?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Best approach?
Yes, combining them all.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
The best approach is yes.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yes, yes, there's you giving them those that positive
reinforcement and negativereinforcement, and also when
necessarily having consequences.
So it has to be a balance, aconsistent balance, excuse me
(31:38):
for it to be beneficial.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Right, and I think it goes back to what we opened
with, and that is, you got tolook at the individual and see
what is going to help motivatethem the best.
Because, again, at the end ofthe day, it's not about just
doing like do what I tell you todo, it's let's learn positive,
healthy behavior.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
So when I'm older, I'm carrying that same idea.
So, real quick, at the very endof this, Mrs Curtis, what is
something that we could tell aparent that they may have, or
even a teacher they may have, astudent, they may have a child
that has multiple behaviorissues trashes the room he or
(32:29):
she punches holes in the wallshe or she does, and there's this
long list of things that aredestructive or are negative
behavior.
How in the world does a parentor a teacher address a child
that has all of these issues?
Because it can be overwhelmingAll of these issues, because it
(32:51):
can be overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Absolutely, yeah, you pick one.
Pick one at a time, pick the onethat I mean.
You can go either way.
You can either pick the onethat's the most challenging,
that you really feel that thechild needs to work on first,
(33:12):
that the child needs to work onfirst, or you can maybe pick the
one that the child is going tobe able to extinguish first,
thereby receiving a lot ofpraise and positive
reinforcement and also probablysome negative reinforcement,
because if they're not doingthis behavior anymore, they're
(33:35):
not receiving consequences forit, and so if you do something
that seems like is a littleeasier to get rid of, then they
I think I feel that they willmake that quarter correlation
and then you work, work on thenext one and, yeah, you might
(33:56):
have to deal with this one thatyou really struggle with, but
it'll get there or if you reallyjust cannot and it's not safe,
then absolutely go for that onefirst.
So I think, once again, thatgoes back to identifying the
needs of the student and theneeds of the class or the needs
(34:17):
of the household.
But pick one, because if youtry to work on multiple
behaviors, it's going to gethard and confusing.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
For everybody involved.
Yeah, so with that, I thinkwe're going to wrap up this
episode.
I'm certainly happy that wetrashed the other one and did
this one instead.
I think our conversation wasmuch better.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
We're also not coming at this after a day of work in
the middle of the week.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yes, exactly, so that was the point I was going to
make, is that?
Well, we're recording on aSunday, so outside of the
Dolphins game, it's been a goodday.
Yes, all right.
So, yep, we'll wrap that up fornow and we'll talk to you next
time.
welcome back to the newest episode.
I don't know why I always saywelcome back.
So welcome back to life in thelife in the iep tribe.
This is the newest episode, um,and, interesting enough, it
it's our second attempt at thisweek's recording because, well,
(00:25):
if we're going to be honest, werecorded an entire episode and
we thought it was doo-doo, sowe're giving it another try,
right, because that's what we do.
I'm a little upset becausewe're recording this on Sunday
and I just got done watching theDolphins lose again, and so
(00:50):
this should be an interestingconversation.
I'm going to do my very best tonot be stuck in like a dark
headspace because I allow theDolphins to mess with me too
much.
I've been pulling for this teamsince I was like six, seven
years old, and all they do isplay with my emotions.
It's like probably the mostabusive relationship I've ever
(01:13):
been in in my life, because I Imean, I buy stuff, right, I wear
dolphins gear and what do theygive me?
Heartache, that is it.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
And finger nubs yeah, I like to eat my fingers.
I mean, yeah, I like to eat myfingers.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I mean I don't like to eat my fingers, but that's
kind of my response.
What's crazy is it doesn't evenmatter.
It does not matter one bit whathappens on that television,
because you know what, at theend of the day, I don't play for
the Dolphins, I don't get paidby them, no, I don't have to do
any of that.
But I tell you what it's aninteresting sport.
(01:45):
So in the game that we watchedtoday there was a receiver for
the Dolphins that got hit withlike this head-to-head tackle
and the poor kid I mean theytook him out on a stretcher and
everything.
It was pretty crazy.
And of course they make allthese rules now to try to help
protect the players.
So, like you know, they can'tspear each other in the head.
(02:08):
It's going to be a penalty.
You can't grab somebody by thecollar of the shirt and pull
them down.
They have another rule whereit's like you can't do a what do
they say?
A hip drop tackle.
And they do all this becausethey want to keep these guys
(02:29):
healthy and allow them to keepplaying the game and enjoy the
game.
But anytime you have groups ofpeople and you have uh,
competition or you know, you'rein a situation where you're
trying to progress and be thebest you can be at, whatever
your specific skill oremployment or whatever the case
(02:51):
may be.
Discipline has to be involved.
We have to be able to direct,we need to tie our decision
making to something.
We can't necessarily justrespond based on feelings.
Discipline is very, very, veryimportant.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I'm willing to bet there's not many people that
have heard me say this in thelast 15 seconds that would
disagree.
However, things get kind ofweird when we start talking
about discipline and we starttalking about our children.
It even gets a little moreweird when we talk about
(03:31):
discipline and our children thatmight have special needs, and
so what we're going to do iswe're going to take the next
handful of minutes and we'regoing to discuss what part
discipline plays in ourchildren's lives.
Now we can talk from a teacherperspective as well as from a
(03:55):
parent perspective.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So tell me, Laura, what place does discipline have
in the house of a child that hasspecial needs?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
What place does it have?
Yeah, as we've discussed before, there's not a whole lot of
(04:36):
things that Xander really reallylikes or really really dislikes
, and so disciplining can bedifficult.
However, for him to progressand to learn and grow, you have
to have discipline.
So you have to find that thingthat will make the difference
(04:57):
and help him learn and grow andstay safe.
A lot of times, our childrenwith disabilities engage in
unsafe behavior, and so you haveto have that discipline and
we're going to get into.
There's many different formswe're not just talking about
(05:18):
physical discipline, so there'sseveral different types, and so
you have to find out what worksbest.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Well, what we found is that our kids, whether it be
in our house or in our classes,they respond best to discomfort.
And now, of course, we wouldnot ever, like you know, try to
hurt a kid or anything like that.
So when we talk aboutdiscomfort, it is what can we do
(05:55):
to position this child in a waythat they just they don't like
the circumstance?
And every time I have thisconversation it reminds me of
this one student that we hadthat I remember he was being
brought to the school and whenhe got out of mom's vehicle he
started kind of acting all crazy, and so I started counting to
the kid.
You know, kind of like we dowith ours All right, one, two,
(06:17):
and then the mom was like whathappens at three?
I said, watch this.
So I went over and I held theboy's hand and that was it, and
you would have thought he wasjust about to lose his mind.
Because it's like you're makingme stand still by holding my
hand.
I can't stand this, you aremaking my life miserable.
(06:39):
And so then what happens is,you know, you get down the road
and you start doing thatcounting.
Well, the kid knows I don'twant to have to stand there and
hold Mr Curtis's hand.
That's boring, that's no fun,and so they'll come over and
walk with you and now not to saythat worked 100% of the time.
However, what had happened isthis particular student learned
(07:00):
if I don't follow the rules,then I have to do something I
don't want to do, something Ican't stand doing.
And so when we talk aboutdiscipline, we're talking about,
you know, training thesechildren up in the way that they
should go, shaping them andmolding them.
Not I'm mad at you, so now Iwant you to suffer, because
(07:37):
that's abuse Absolutely, it'snot discipline, absolutely.
We don't want them to do rightand wrong just based on whether
or not a teacher is there in theroom, but instead to learn that
I need to make safe decisions,and when I make, safe decisions,
(08:11):
I have a pretty good time withmy life versus.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
If I make unsafe decisions, then there's
consequences that I don't wantto have to deal with.
So what are some of the waysthat discipline can take place
in the home and in the classroom?
Well, first, you have to knowand identify the needs of the
child, because, as we've talkedabout before that they're all
different, they all respond todifferent things and they have
different needs.
So you need to find out what itis that they need, what they
(08:34):
understand, what they like, whatthey don't like.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So it really is individualized, much like what
we talk about as far as what wedo in the school building, it's
individualized.
You really have to take thetime to get to know the student
and kind of find what makes themtick.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Right, right.
And then what we like to tryfirst is, of course, the
positive interventions.
You know we've talked aboutbefore how, if we're trying to
make sure that a student issomething as simple as coming
(09:12):
and sitting on the floor toengage in our whole group
activity and it's something thatthey've been struggling with If
they come over and stand on thecarpet, then make a big deal
about it.
So that's one of the thingsmake a big deal about every step
(09:32):
towards the behavior thatyou're wanting the child to see.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, and it's good that you mentioned steps.
Yeah, it's good that youmentioned steps, because the one
thing that we have found isthat nothing changes overnight.
Like there's a process to helpa child get from one point to
the other, and like you'resaying so, you're talking about
okay, so I want this kid to comedown and sit on the carpet.
Well, is sitting on the carpetreally the goal?
(10:00):
Like, do we just want to see akid sit on a carpet?
Absolutely not.
We're working towards somethingthat will help direct him in
life.
Okay, well, at this time,here's appropriate behavior.
Right, at this time, this ishow I listen to the instruction
given and then wait fordirection.
So it's not just a I just wantyou to sit on a carpet, right,
(10:21):
because that's not going to helpa kid at all, but it does have
everything to do with helpingthem make those good choices.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I've encountered some students that don't like to sit
on the floor, and so not onlydo you reward them for the good
choices they make, but you alsogive them choices good choices
that you also they make, but youalso give them choices Okay,
you can sit.
You know, a lot of times I'llsay, all right, you can sit on
the blue carpet or you can sitin the blue chair, because
(10:53):
they're still followingdirections, they're still facing
the where I want them to face,where the learning is going to
happen.
But if they really have anaversion to sitting on the floor
, then they're not uncomfortable, and so that positive praise
and reinforcement and givingthem options and sometimes the
(11:16):
kids don't respond to thepositive praise and there's been
times where it's like, okay, solook at you, you walked right
on over here and found a seat soyou might hand them a Skittle
or a cheese ball or sometimes alittle sticker.
So finding those, so they knowwhat they're supposed to be
(11:38):
doing, is important.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So let me ask this question what if so?
So what if you have a student?
That is, what if you have astudent that you said you want
to give them?
Maybe they just don't want tosit, maybe that's a big deal for
them, and so you might look fora different option, right,
(12:05):
right, like maybe.
Well, instead of sitting here,maybe they can stand in this
particular area, or you know,whatever the case may be.
So my question is so what aboutbeing fair?
Is it fair to let this kidstand where all the other kids
have to sit?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Explain that to me.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Okay.
So in our house and as ourfamily, and as well as our
classrooms, we do what is fair.
However, a lot of our kids feellike fair is equal.
We don't necessarily do equalthings, because equal is getting
(12:50):
the same thing as everybodyelse, whereas fair is getting
what they each child needs to besuccessful, or each individual
needs to be successful.
So it may mean that so-and-sois permitted to walk back and
forth at the back of the carpet,while others, who we know do
(13:13):
not have an inversion of sittingon the carpet, are not allowed
to.
But if this individual ispacing back and forth but
they're also engaging, thenthat's what's fair for them.
If I make them sit on thecarpet or sit in a chair on the
carpet or sit in a chair, itcould be something that's
painful for them sensory-wiseand they will be focusing more
(13:44):
on that or getting upset andthen all learning ceases.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, so we got to be .
We have to be fair, All right.
So we talked a little bit aboutthe positive reinforcers.
So anytime you have a positive,there's always a negative.
So what is a negativereinforcement?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
A negative reinforcement is when you take,
take away something, but notnecessarily that's different
than punishment, so you're goingto take away that thing.
That's uncomfortable.
So, like we were saying, if thechild does not want to sit down
(14:22):
and I make him sit down, thenwhen I allow him to walk, that's
negative reinforcement becauseI'm taking away that
uncomfortable aspect of thedirective and reinforcing the
(14:44):
behavior that I want.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So negative reinforcers are not the same as
punishment, correct Right.
So one of the things I knowthat I had an instructor tell us
is it's very similar to thelike that beeping noise that
you'll get in the car if youdon't put your seatbelt on Right
.
So the seatbelt beeps, beeps,beeps, beeps.
(15:06):
Put the seatbelt on, noisestops.
Right so there's a negativereinforcer by making this
decision, that something's beingtaken away to make the
experience better for the child.
One example that might besomething like you know little
(15:26):
Jimmy had a great day today.
He followed the rules.
So you know what Little Jimmydidn't have to do homework.
Tonight we're not sendinghomework home right.
So it's not punishment andnegative reinforcement is not
the same thing.
So, but what was?
What would something like thatlook like in the classroom
(15:46):
setting or or even the homesetting with our, with our
children that have special needs?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
The negative reinforcement.
Yeah, I have a student that hasa work inversion.
We have a student that does notlike to complete tasks and one
of the things that they reallydo not like is having to cut and
then so if we go and cut thepieces for him and present it to
(16:20):
him already cut out, he willindependently complete his work.
So we're taking that piece thathe really does not like because
in the grand scheme that part'snot that important.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And so that he's going to fight back if we try to
make him do that.
But if the end game is that hecompletes his work, then we're
taking away the part that'suncomfortable for him.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
so he still completes his work, it's uncomfortable
for him, so he still completeshis work, and you made a comment
that I think is reallyimportant too.
Is that looking at in the grandscheme, what is it that we want
to accomplish?
So I know one of the things andwe'll probably touch on this a
little bit later is what hillare we willing to die on, right?
(17:11):
What are the things that we aregoing to?
You know, tie down to that.
This is important.
You know this has to be doneBecause, like you said, if the
kid doesn't cut the paperhimself, but by presenting the
(17:32):
pieces and the student takesthose and completes the work,
that's what we're looking for,right, right, we want to see
them complete a task.
We want to see them, and so andthere's going to be all kinds of
different opinions andperspectives on what that looks
like, but it really is importantas parents, as teachers, as
(17:57):
anybody that may work in theeducation system, because again
we've got a growing population.
You know the number of studentsthat receive services under
special education.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Or even other family members of you.
Know the children withdisabilities too, because
sometimes you have familymembers that believe that this
child should be doing this orthis child should be doing that.
So it's important to talk aboutwhat do we want them to do,
(18:27):
what do we find important andwhat are we willing to overlook.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, I know that just in our home there's
numerous stories, but one inparticular that comes to my mind
was, you know, early on in ourrelationship when Xander and
Brandon they were just littletykes then and we're staying
with you and I don't know if Iwas at school or work or
something, but you want to goahead and tell that story
(18:54):
Because I think you know thestory I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think I do.
Yeah, go ahead.
So at that time I think Xanderwas a little bit of a screen
fiend and he liked to watchmovies.
He liked to be on a computerand he would want to watch any
screen that he could get.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
At the same time.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, and so he was sitting at the table and he had
a computer and a portable DVDplayer, and this is before.
I think we had done a lot ofresearch into the harms of
allowing that.
(19:39):
And one thing he liked to do washe would watch a scene and back
it up and watch the scene andback it up.
And so he already had those twoand his brother was in the
living room on the PlayStation.
Well, he decided he also wantedto watch a movie on that
PlayStation.
And I told him no, and he didnot like that.
(20:01):
And so he started to get upsetand Brandon, being the sweet big
brother he is, was like oh,it's okay, I'm done, he can have
it.
And I said well, that's greatthat you're done, and if you
don't want to play, that's fine,but he's still not going to get
to watch the movie on this.
He has two things already thathe has, and so you can.
(20:25):
If you don't want to play,that's fine, but he's still not
going to get it.
So go ahead and decide what youwant.
And so I believe that was thetime that Xander got so mad at
me.
He proceeded to walk into theother room and vomited all over
the floor.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Mm-hmm.
So he walked from a tile floor,wood floor, to a carpeted floor
and then threw up on purpose.
Yes, good times.
But and I have you tell thatstory because there are going to
be people who know your familyor are part of your family that
(21:07):
they want to be kind, and that'sgood.
But by allowing, by allowingxander to just do whatever he
wants to does not help himprogress in his life.
As a matter of fact, whatyou're doing is you're building
this, this perspective of youknow that he can just do and get
(21:28):
whatever he wants.
Oh well, he has autism.
So right you know, just let himdo whatever because he can't
help it, right?
And what we have found is thatis definitely not the case.
You know, we've had theprivilege of teaching some
fantastic kids over the lastgolly.
I mean you've been in theschool system for much longer
(21:50):
than I have.
I mean you've been in theschool system for much longer
than I have.
But what we have found is thatthere's very few kids that we
have come into contact withwhose negative behavior is a
direct reflection of theirdisability.
Right, that there's usually acombination going on on, and
(22:15):
oftentimes what we see is whatyou experienced with with xander
is that we, we don't want torock the boat, we want to keep
our kids happy and we may havethe best intentions, but then,
but we, we grow monsters when wedo that, when we don't teach
them discipline, when we don'tteach them right and wrong, when
, when we don't teach them theimportance of following
directions, and so that's kindof.
(22:40):
One of the things that we wantto make really clear in this
conversation is that every kid,I can almost say with 100%
certainty that your child canlearn to do the right thing, can
learn to be respectful, canlearn to engage with people in a
way that is acceptable.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Right and I think a lot of misconceptions that we
found with people in Zander Ithink that there's other people
that have the samemisconceptions is that because
they have a disability, theydon't understand what they're
doing.
And a lot of times they havegotten that manipulation down
(23:36):
and they do understand whatthey're doing.
And so I think that's thatconversation I had to have with
Brandon afterwards and I toldhim I appreciated him doing what
he thought was being the kindbig brother and I wasn't just
trying to be mean.
But if I allowed Xander to justdo what he wanted and have
(23:58):
everything he wanted, I wasenabling that negative and
undesired behavior and as hegrew it would do nothing for him
but get him in trouble.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, so we've talked about positive reinforcers,
negative reinforcement.
And then here's the one that,like nobody likes to talk about,
and I get it is punishment.
Now, what is punishment?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It is according to our notes here.
We had to make notes because wefound we were just rambling
sometimes.
Yeah, so it's discouragingundesired behavior by providing
negative consequences when thebehavior occurs.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay.
So what this does notnecessarily mean is it does not
mean that punishment isinflicting physical pain.
A lot of people have differentideas on whether that's
acceptable or not, and thatconversation we're not even
going to have right now.
But what we do want to discussis the importance of discomfort
(25:03):
and we started talking aboutthis at the beginning and that
is you and putting the childrenin a position where they realize
that this I don't want to dothis.
Putting together the when I makethis type of choice, these are
the repercussions, right?
I mean, we've got students thatyou know, things like missing
(25:29):
out on certain free times, right, like not you know, okay, okay,
so you weren't following thedirections today, um, you've had
multiple opportunities to do soand because of this we're not
going to be.
We can't allow you to play withyour race car or have some
(25:49):
computer time, or right, and sowe remove things, because we've
learned that I'll quote my dadPeople don't change when they
see the light.
They change when they feel hate.
That's pretty good, wasn't it?
I should start doing somevoiceover work.
(26:10):
I should start doing somevoiceover work, but no, but
there's an awful lot of truth tothat.
Is that the times that we learnthe most.
I mean, I look at my own life.
It was pain that caused me torealize this was not a good
choice.
Discomfort, this was not a goodchoice.
(26:31):
Oh, look like, I have no money.
I have no money, I have no job.
I have no house.
I have no right, thesedifferent things that made me go
.
I don't want to live like thisanymore.
Right, and so the same conceptcan be worked out with our
students, with our children, andthat when we make decisions
(26:58):
that are harmful, there's goingto be consequences.
We are going to beuncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I remember one of the things that we used with Xander
was we had his sticker chart.
Oh, yeah.
And it was, you know, and hemade the good choice because he
was going through some thingsand we would give him a sticker
and then, at the end of whateverchosen period, there was a
(27:23):
reward.
And at that time it wastypically a movie which we had
already scaled that way back,movie which we had already
scaled that way back.
But, you know, it got to thepoint where he understood what
putting that sticker on ortaking the sticker off meant
that he, if he didn't get tothis point by making these
(27:45):
decisions, that he was not goingto get that movie at that time,
that movie at that time.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, and what we've learned is not effective is,
from the standpoint ofpunishment, not giving any grace
.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Oh right.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Right, so so realistic expectation.
I can remember when I was inkindergarten I think it was in
this class that I was in we hadthese, we, we built these little
boxes.
Well, we didn't build them,they were like milk cartons that
were cut, but they were littletreasure boxes.
(28:21):
And so every day, at the end ofthe day, the teacher would give
us you know, if we made theright decision, we got like a
gold coin or but that that andso then at the end of the week,
if you had four gold coins wouldhave been five.
On friday, you, you got this.
Like you got to go to thistreasure chest and pick out
(28:42):
something cool.
Well, I never had that.
Like, by tuesday, I've lost agold coin already.
Like, in particular, I think Ithink I got a boot or something
like that.
I don't remember what they stoodfor, but what I do remember is
thinking, well, there's nochance for me to do this, and
who cares?
Like, why am I going to bust myrear end to be good?
(29:03):
Well, you should be good justbecause you're supposed to be
good?
Okay, cool, but I'm right, okayso, but we found too that in in
dealing with our students, thatthere has to be, there has to
be grace.
Right, there has to be.
You know, if you've got sixopportunities during the course
(29:25):
of the day to earn this prize,okay, well, you need four, right
, right, because you know what Imean.
I've been on this planet forover 47 years and I constantly
make poor choices, like when Isay constantly, I mean over the
(29:46):
course of my life.
I might go days where I, hey, Idid pretty well today, right,
but typically there's going tobe something at some point in
the day where I think to myselfwow, that was just stupid.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right, I shouldn't have done that, or I shouldn't
have said that.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
And so if we our children, are smart enough to
figure that out, that if okay.
So during my first block I blewit, so I did not get to move my
car around the track.
Then I have to move it everytime I move classes.
So if I didn't do it this timethen I'm not going to earn it
(30:23):
for the rest of the day.
So I'm just going to do what Iwant and it makes sense.
But if they know that, hey,it's okay.
So you struggled during thisclass and it's okay because
you'll have another chance,let's go on to this one and you
have another chance to earn yourreward.
(30:44):
You still can earn your rewardbecause they figure that out Yep
True story.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So negative reinforcers, positive
reinforcers, punishment, grace,grace, right has to all be in
there, um, and so what is the?
I think we've kind of alreadyanswered this, but what is the
best approach?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Best approach?
Yes, combining them all.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
The best approach is yes.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yes, yes, there's you giving them those that positive
reinforcement and negativereinforcement, and also when
necessarily having consequences.
So it has to be a balance, aconsistent balance, excuse me
(31:38):
for it to be beneficial.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Right, and I think it goes back to what we opened
with, and that is, you got tolook at the individual and see
what is going to help motivatethem the best.
Because, again, at the end ofthe day, it's not about just
doing like do what I tell you todo, it's let's learn positive,
healthy behavior.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
So when I'm older, I'm carrying that same idea.
So, real quick, at the very endof this, Mrs Curtis, what is
something that we could tell aparent that they may have, or
even a teacher they may have, astudent, they may have a child
that has multiple behaviorissues trashes the room he or
(32:29):
she punches holes in the wallshe or she does, and there's this
long list of things that aredestructive or are negative
behavior.
How in the world does a parentor a teacher address a child
that has all of these issues?
Because it can be overwhelmingAll of these issues, because it
(32:51):
can be overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Absolutely, yeah, you pick one.
Pick one at a time, pick the onethat I mean.
You can go either way.
You can either pick the onethat's the most challenging,
that you really feel that thechild needs to work on first,
(33:12):
that the child needs to work onfirst, or you can maybe pick the
one that the child is going tobe able to extinguish first,
thereby receiving a lot ofpraise and positive
reinforcement and also probablysome negative reinforcement,
because if they're not doingthis behavior anymore, they're
(33:35):
not receiving consequences forit, and so if you do something
that seems like is a littleeasier to get rid of, then they
I think I feel that they willmake that quarter correlation
and then you work, work on thenext one and, yeah, you might
(33:56):
have to deal with this one thatyou really struggle with, but
it'll get there or if you reallyjust cannot and it's not safe,
then absolutely go for that onefirst.
So I think, once again, thatgoes back to identifying the
needs of the student and theneeds of the class or the needs
(34:17):
of the household.
But pick one, because if youtry to work on multiple
behaviors, it's going to gethard and confusing.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
For everybody involved.
Yeah, so with that, I thinkwe're going to wrap up this
episode.
I'm certainly happy that wetrashed the other one and did
this one instead.
I think our conversation wasmuch better.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
We're also not coming at this after a day of work in
the middle of the week.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yes, exactly, so that was the point I was going to
make, is that?
Well, we're recording on aSunday, so outside of the
Dolphins game, it's been a goodday.
Yes, all right.
So, yep, we'll wrap that up fornow and we'll talk to you next
time.
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