February 15, 2025 • 37 mins
Unlock the potential of Applied Behavioral Analysis (ABA) with our distinguished guests, Rebecca and David Johnson, both Board Certified Behavior Analysts (BCBAs). Discover how ABA extends beyond therapy for individuals with autism and into everyday scenarios like seatbelt reminders and the efficiency of business practices. Rebecca and David share their experiences and strategies for using ABA principles to foster independence and address socially significant behaviors, emphasizing personalized approaches and the importance of collaboration with families.
Explore the journey of effective communication and behavior reinforcement, particularly for children facing communication challenges. We discuss how clear expectations and consistent language, such as using "safe hands" or "calm hands," can guide children towards positive behaviors in various situations. Learn about the significance of generalizing these skills across different environments and how embedding these strategies into daily routines creates a supportive atmosphere that promotes adaptability and growth.
Collaboration stands at the heart of successful ABA implementation, especially in educational settings. In our conversation, we stress the value of teamwork among teachers, parents, caregivers, and specialists to create supportive environments that understand and accommodate the unique needs of each child. Rebecca and David's dedication is apparent as they share how being a reliable presence in classrooms and homes can make a profound impact. We express gratitude for their insights and passion, setting the stage for future enriching discussions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
so we're going to kick off another one, another
podcast episode, with otherpeople.
I'm very excited about this,and so, uh, a couple weeks ago
we got to have, uh, one of ourfriends, miss limpert, on with
us and that was super cool andwe really enjoyed it.
(00:24):
And then last week we got totalk with another special
education teacher who's been inthis game for a very long time
and Freda Buck.
Todd Zander.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, and Todd Zander and.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Todd Zander.
Yeah, we were very excitedabout that.
So this week we have not justone, but two, yes, and they are
coming to talk with us aboutthis thing.
I'm going to say it's going tobe about ABA, but I think
there's a lot of things that aregoing to fall underneath it,
and so one of the things thatwe're going to have to do after
(00:58):
I introduce you is we're goingto have to probably explain what
all the acronyms are the A Band the A and the B C and the B
A and the all of that stuff.
But today, tonight, thisevening, this episode that's
where I'm going to.
This episode we have Rebeccaand David Johnson.
(01:20):
Did I get that right?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Okay, good, because names are horrible.
True story.
So check this out.
I was doing a wedding andluckily it was a very, very
small one and we're standingthere and so I use the same
wedding script every wedding.
Right, I mean, why wouldn't theworld?
Will we try to reinvent thewheel?
So I get up there and and, uh,I start reading through the
(01:43):
script and I called the guy thewrong name.
Yeah, I was like, oh, yourname's not Tom.
That's kind of the thing.
So even with stuff right infront of me, I still mess up
names.
So we have yes, we have Davidand we have Rebecca with us and
they are.
Correct me if I get this wrong.
(02:03):
You are You're, you know what.
You just tell me and everybodyelse that's listening, which is
pretty much my mom.
I think that you tell them whatit is that you do and what the
little letters around your namemean.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Okay, we are both BCBAs and that is a board
certified behavior analyst bothBCBAs and that is a board
certified behavior analyst.
What that means is we both gotour master's and then took a
certification exam to show thatwe are qualified to have
opinions, sometimes aboutbehavior.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Sometimes I like that .
Speaker 4 (02:41):
This actually is my 11th.
This month is my 11th year ofbeing a BCBA.
I've been in the field of ABAfor about 13 years and this is a
year and a half two years ayear and a half as a BCBA.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I've been in the field since 2016.
So ABA is Applied BehavioralAnalysis and what we do is
basically find what is sociallysignificant for individuals with
autism more specifically, butit can be used in many different
ways ways.
(03:26):
Organizational behaviormanagement OBM is something that
is used, probably more commonlyknown, to help you know where
to put stuff on the shelves, howto stock the shelves so people
can get what they need, the wayto design the supermarket, or
you know one of our favoriteplaces to go Chick-fil-A, the
way they have the doubledrive-thru right.
Those are all things that tryto be more efficient you know
the efficiency of a business.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
But we work with people.
We work with kids primarilydiagnosed with autism, but
that's really just becausethat's the only diagnosis,
insurance will pay for and coverthe therapy.
But we do consult in theschools.
We, you know, have experiencein different settings.
Consult in the schools we, youknow, have experience in
(04:07):
different settings.
Aba is is all around us.
The annoying seatbelt you knowbeeping to put on your seatbelt,
taking medication when you havea headache.
Those are all principles of ABAat work.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
If I'm understanding you correctly, it is in what
ways can we help equip, in thiscase, a child, to better
function in the world aroundthem?
And I think I think there's alot to be said for approaches
like that, because I know that,for instance me, growing up, it
was very common to be told thisis just how you do things, so
(04:43):
you do it, whether you're goodat it or not.
This is how it is, this is howthe school setting is, this is
how and you just got to makethat happen.
And I think something thatwe've learned, laura and I both
in the time that we've been in aspecial education, is that,
yeah, that's not the best way toapproach it Shocking Like it
doesn't, it doesn't quite workthat way shocking, like it
(05:07):
doesn't, it doesn't quite workthat way.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah, I, um, I go into every assessment and
when I train people and you know, like my ultimate goal is how
can we improve the quality oflife for this individual and
their families because it'sbigger than just them, um, and
also, what skills can we teachthem so that they can be as
independent as possible?
And that looks different forevery individual.
What, what means?
What Johnny's independentpotential is is going to be
(05:31):
different than you know, jenny'sindependent potential, and, and
that's determined by you know,collaborate, collaboration and
figuring out.
What skills do we have now andwhere do you want them to go?
And what is your plan for yourchild and what is your plan,
your five-year plan, where doyou want?
What are your biggest strugglesnow?
You know, in the, when they'reolder, what's the plan?
(05:51):
Are they going to liveindependently?
Are they going to?
You know, figuring out andthat's it's hard as parents to
kind of figure that out, butunfortunately, I think that's a
big part of especially havingstudents with special needs is
something you do have to thinkabout what's the next step,
what's the long term goal?
And kind of figuring out whatthat looks like so we know how
(06:11):
to target right now, so we canplan for that.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That makes definitely makes sense.
There.
You're talking about havingdifferent plans.
Plan.
So, like, what is a uh behaviormanagement plan that you like
describe a successful one, thatyou have um made and that
implemented uh, in the schoolsetting?
(06:37):
And also, how can you take thatand put it in the home setting?
Because, because you guys go to, you have different settings
that you work in.
So maybe first answer that,what are the different settings
that you serve children andfamily and then talk about a
plan you implemented and how yougo from those settings.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So settings you know me personally that I've worked
in other than the clinicalsetting, you know out, in the
community, with multipleindividuals in home, in school.
Also, there was a few clientsthat you know I've attended.
You know, dentist appointments.
Or even something as simple asa haircut.
You know we did that, which Ithought was, you know, probably
(07:23):
one of the coolest things,something that you know most
people would really take forgranted.
You know, being able to get ahaircut.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
You know this family struggled for a long time.
So the settings that you knowwe have gone into is, you know,
just about any setting that thechild will, you know, enter in
their own life or in the life oftheir family.
So you know in each setting isdifferent.
In our clinical setting,obviously, you know we have
(07:50):
control of the environment.
We have control of you know theoutside variables.
You know we can set up therooms in, you know the
situations in the way that weneed to.
But it's not always like that.
So in the classroom, settingsome of the different behavior
management strategies that havebeen used, first and foremost we
try to find positivereinforcement that's going to
(08:11):
motivate to get the specific,correct behaviors that we're
looking for.
One small downfall is typicallysometimes we don't have the
appropriate skill set that weneed to reach the function of
that behavior, appropriate skillset that we need to reach the
function of that behavior.
So, for example, if you knowwe're engaging in, you know, a
(08:34):
disruptive behavior, a scream orsomething you know that could
be to get attention right or toget out of doing something, for
example.
And if we know we scream, youknow everybody looks at us.
That's very quick to us toteach us how to gain that
attention that we're looking forIn an inappropriate way, In an
inappropriate way you knoweverybody looks at us.
That's very quick to us to teachus how to gain that attention
that we're looking for In aninappropriate way.
In an inappropriate way, youknow, because whether it's you
know, the positive socialattention you know great job,
high fives, you know stuff likethat.
Even a reprimand is attentionright.
(08:56):
So that is also going to feedthose attention-seeking
behaviors.
So one thing we have to dofirst is find a replacement
skill for that.
So you know, if Johnny, forexample, needs someone's
attention, whether it's you knowusing their words excuse me, I
need your help or raising a handin classroom, you know, or you
(09:17):
know, tap, hey, we need to teachthose quickly and reinforce
that replacement behavior asheavily as possible.
So that's where we go to first,versus something that has
already been reinforced for atime frame.
You know the screaming and ifwe can get that, you know we're.
We're on a moving track.
So with that, you know, we havedifferent reinforcement systems
typically in the classroom.
(09:38):
One that is easy to implementacross the classroom in
different settings is tokeneconomy, which I think most
teachers are very familiar with.
So it's not having to teachthem a different skill set, it's
teaching them a skill set thatthey already have and how to
specifically implement it.
A couple of different.
You know varieties of it in theclassroom.
We've done individual.
(10:00):
You know token boards for eachkid at their desk.
Know whether it's.
You know four or five kids.
I've been in a classroom we didlike a big wall chart.
Each kid has their name and youknow, as the teacher was
teaching or the parents wereteaching or they were in the,
each student was engaging in theappropriate behavior that we
were looking to gain, whether itwas a hand raise or keeping
their hands themselves.
You know, oh hey, awesome job.
(10:21):
And giving them that shout outand giving them that checkmark
or that stick, that sticker, notjust for them.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Not just for them to see, but for everybody else in
the class to see.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
There's a lot of research to sorry.
There's a lot of research sidequest about public praise, right
, public posting, and one that'seffective because one it's like
oh well, they got praise.
I want that too, so let so, letme do the right thing.
You can individualize it.
Maybe David needs to work onhaving nice hands and his hands
down, but I need to work on notinterrupting and raising my hand
(10:55):
right, so you can individualizeit.
But it's visual, so it's thatvisual reminder.
My name is up there.
Why is my name up there?
Oh right, my name is up there.
You know why is my name upthere?
All right, I need to raise myhand to to get some attention.
So, and there's a lot ofresearch to show the
effectiveness of public posting,so I can't, oh, no, no, you're
(11:18):
fine.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And then typically you know each, each individual
has something that they'reworking for Right, Earn your
five check marks you get, youknow, your, your ball, or your
car, or to read your story, orto just go sit in a rocking
chair, something that you knowis reinforcing that terminal
reinforcer for them which youknow, when we're using the token
economy, we want to gain priorto and it may change while we
(11:40):
work through and get our checkmarks and get our tokens.
But you know, if we don't knowwhat we're working for from the
start, it makes it really hardto be motivating.
And then the simple way we'vetransitioned that into a house.
I worked with this, I workedwith this family and they did
the same thing and they puteverybody's name in the family
on the fridge in the same kindof diagram.
(12:01):
And although it was just for thedaughter, you know, mom's name
was up there, dad's name was upthere, brother's name was up
there.
So anytime anybody engaged inthis appropriate havers, you
know, uh, doing their chores,picking up their stuff, putting
their backpack away where itgoes, finishing their homework.
You know these simple things,um brushing their teeth,
brushing their teeth, notyelling at their sibling.
You know, using kind language,they would get their check marks
(12:22):
, and you know their five checkmarks or their 10 check marks,
and you know we get, uh,whatever it was at the time.
You know time on a tablet.
You know our ice cream treat.
So, um, those are thosepositive reinforcement ways um
to do that.
Um, unfortunately, though, Ithink um Sometimes we get past
that and you know we engage insome challenging behaviors and
(12:44):
we need to find appropriate waysto manage those in the
classroom.
So you know it's important tofind the function of those and
meet that as quickly as possible, and that's where teaching,
that replacement behavior kindof comes into place.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
So these positive charts and, rebecca, you said
they've done a lot of researchon that, and so I'm assuming, by
you saying that, that theyfound that the positive public
charts are more effective thanthe, let's say, the old school
(13:20):
stoplight and where you'rebumping them down for the
negative behavior.
Is that?
Would that be a good assumption?
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, like oh, you lost recess, oh you're on red,
oh, the up and down, the colorcharts.
I think that, right, it goesback to finding the function of
the behavior and that thefunction of my behavior is
attention, whether you move meto red or you move me to blue or
you know wherever in between,or I lost recess, I, I bothered
you, I took time out of yourteaching to to tell me something
(13:54):
, so I got attention right, andso I'm going to continue to do
that, because a lot of times andas parents we do it, and
clinicians we do it, and asteachers we do it we we miss a
lot of the catchy being good,right, it's a lot of.
I see you at your seat, I seeyou yelling, I see you right.
(14:14):
The school has, you know, pbisand they use class dojo a lot.
That's a token economy and Ithink that that can be
implemented really well.
And it can be implemented noteffectively if we only catch
that you're talking in the hall,you've lost a dojo, but we
didn't catch the other 50 times.
I was walking in the hallquietly, right.
(14:34):
So I think that it's definitelyimportant to identify, you know
, making it clear what is itthat, what are, what are we
working on?
What are we trying to do?
Make that clear to everyoneinvolved in like, okay, that's
what we're going to provideattention for, that's what we're
going to give tokens for,that's what you know, that's
what we're going to acknowledgeand bring attention to or
(14:57):
provide reinforcement to.
Is the desired behavior, sayingwhat we want you to do not, hey
, get off the table.
It's like feet on the floor,don't stand on your chair.
It's bottom in your chair.
You know what I mean, liketelling me what I am supposed to
do, especially when we interactwith kids who have a
communication deficit Right.
(15:18):
And so if I say don't stand onthe chair, all I heard was stand
chair right, like I, if I havecommunication deficit.
That's a lot of words that youknow.
The message isn't clear, and soit's really important to be
clear in what our expectationsare.
So I'm gonna tell you what todo.
Hey, let's have safe hands.
You know that's a quick andeasy way.
I'm a big fan of like hey, foldyour hands.
(15:40):
If you're doing this, you can'thit me, you can't pinch me,
Right, and it's a quick, and wecan do this in the store and we
can do it at home, and we can doit in the playground, and we
can do it in the lunchroom, inthe car, we can do it in the car
.
So I'm a big fan of you know,hey, hold your hands.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Instead of don't hit, no, we don't pinch, no, we what
we do, because I'm doing itLike oh yeah, let me show you.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
You know, I know a lot of times you want to be like
don't hit, and I know Iunderstand the desire to do that
, but it's right.
Hold your hands, cause if yourhands are like this, it's really
hard to you know, pinch and dosome of those.
And also you're telling me whatto do and it's, it's to the
point hold your hands, safehands, whatever language you
know we want to use, butpointing out the it's to the
(16:26):
point Hold your hands, safehands, whatever language we want
to use, but pointing out thewhat to do and reinforcing that
desired behavior goes a lotfurther.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And do you see benefits to?
You talked about this strategy,using the same strategy and
same language at school and athome.
Yeah, so I think that'sobviously generalization is
really important in what we do.
Um, working across differentsettings, different environment,
different people implementingthe different things, um, we
would love for you know it to begeneralized in a way that
anybody can say kind of anythingsemi-related to it and they
(17:02):
understand.
Unfortunately, it's not.
It doesn't react that quickly.
Typically, when we teachreplacement behaviors or you
know even that simple fold yourhands or calm hands, it is the
same immediately just to getthat response that way.
Calm hands, great Thanks forcoming.
Calm hands, great, andreinforce that calm hands.
So that would be the SD that wewould teach everybody to use
(17:24):
and it would be really importantto use that because that in our
setting, in the clinic, that'swhat we have used to.
You know, implement that.
This is the behavior, thedesired behavior, we're looking
for.
You know even something assimple as you know having a kid.
Take a break.
You know some of the kidsdepending on their communication
skills hey, bud, you lookfrustrated.
(17:44):
Let's take a break.
You know some of the kidsdepending on their communication
skills.
Hey, bud, you look frustrated.
Let's take a break, right,which is fine if we have that
communication skills, but if wehave the, you know, receptive
and expressive deficits, we needto find a way to, you know,
quickly.
Do that, hey, bud, take a breakor, you know, assign break.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Or a picture of what I think you said blue mat or
blue area.
You said earlier think you saidblue mat or blue, uh, blue area,
you said earlier, whatever thatis, like you know, um, I think
the communication is superimportant.
It's important, um, across allsettings.
And so generalization in thesense of we have the skill here,
we have it's great if in myfour walls we can get this
(18:19):
behavior under control.
But that's not that kid'sreality, right, they're going to
go into the store, they'regoing to go into the school,
they, they're going to go athome and we need to be able to
generalize that skill across allthose settings.
And, like David said, it's it'sideally we can kind of we try to
teach different language sothat they respond the same way,
(18:42):
and it doesn't have to be, inour experience, kids with autism
, or you know, we like routines,we like sameness, but we also
have to teach flexibility andmake it predictable.
And so the model if I model itand I say safe hands and I model
it and I say calm hands and Imodel it and I say hold your
(19:02):
hands right, I'm using differentlanguage so that anybody might
say something different, butthey all mean this.
So that's a way that that's.
Another form of generalizationis that I'm using different
instructions, but the behavioris going to be the same, because
it's really important to teachthat flexibility Right it's.
It's really important that wedon't have to say the same thing
(19:22):
, thing the exact same way inall environments to get that
behavior.
That's not functional for thatindividual.
And so it's important that whenwe're teaching kids, either in
the clinic or in the schoolsetting, that we're embedding
generalization into that andsaying it different ways with
the same model.
And you know.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
So yeah, period you've talked a lot about um.
You're saying you know kids andstudents and whatnot.
Is there an age cap or your agerange like what youngest,
oldest of um individuals youserve?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
um, I've served individuals, uh, the oldest
individual I've personallyworked with, I believe he was 24
.
Um, and you know, with thisindividual we work um, he um,
you know, very, uh, ourcommunication skills were great
Um, some, some things in theworld we didn't understand
(20:20):
because it wasn't, you know,routine and regimented, um,
right.
So some of the things we workedon is he, he had a, a big
desire to get his GED, um, andthen get a job, um, and he
wanted to work at Taco Bell,which I love because, uh, you
know, I support the Baja Blast.
Um, so you know, the differentthings we worked on is one
figuring out, okay, what are thesteps that we need to do to be
(20:43):
able to take that test?
Okay, right, so we figured thatout, I said, and then, you know
, we sat down okay, what isgoing to be on that test and
what do we need to be ready for?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Oops, I think we froze, they froze.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
And he got I'm sorry, hi, um, hi, hey, we're back.
We figured out all the steps,right, um, and you know we got
it scheduled and he figured outhow to get there.
And you know he didn't drive.
So it's like, okay, well, ifyour parents can't take you,
what are other ways we can getthere?
He's like, okay, we can call anuber.
Um, I didn't really follow upon how he got there, but he got
there, he took it.
You know, he passed test and,as far as I know, he, you know,
(21:24):
landed that job at Taco Bellbecause we worked on job
applications and interviews andstuff like that.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
We don't in in the clinic.
I've primarily in the clinicsetting and in the school
setting.
We don't really have an agelimit.
It's as soon as kids can getdiagnosed again, because
insurance only pays for adiagnosis.
And as far as an age cap, weprimarily work with children but
also ABA can be effective inany realm of life abilities.
(21:52):
But it's really what'sappropriate and what's
functional.
If I have a bunch oftwo-year-olds in the building
and I have an 18-year-old whoneeds services to work on job
applications, that's not reallyfunctional or appropriate for
that individual and so am Igoing to be able to serve his
needs?
Probably not in that setting,because right now our building
(22:14):
is filled with, you know, earlyintervention age.
So it's kind of looking at thatas far as ABA and what as a
BCBA.
It's kind of looking at that asfar as ABA and what as a BCBA
right limits?
There aren't really any.
Our ethical code dictates wework within our scope of what we
know and what we haveexperience with in practice can
(22:34):
do effectively and ethically,but also from a from a clinic
standpoint.
Taking that into consideration,can I meet your needs from a
clinic standpoint?
Taking that into consideration,can I meet your needs Right.
Can I?
Is this an appropriate settingfor you to be around at 24?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
to be around?
Speaker 4 (22:49):
probably not.
And so taking that into account,or flip side right, if I have a
bunch of 18 year olds,teenagers, is it appropriate to
then have a three-year-old come?
And you know, so it's justtaking that into account.
And and if we can meet yourneeds, and that's you know.
So it's just taking that intoaccount and and if we can meet
your needs, and that's you know,on an individual clinic basis,
(23:11):
but as a, as a field, thereisn't really a limit.
We currently, in our companywhere we work, serve, I think
our youngest is two Um, and theoldest we currently have is uh
16.
Um and so um.
My baby cannot be 17, uh,anyway, so um, um.
(23:37):
But we, you know, we worked outthe schedule so we have age-like
peers at certain, becausethat's that's the skill we're
working on with that individualum, you know, we have different
individuals.
We have a um 11, 14, 14 year,14 year old who has very minimal
communication and some, youknow, self injurious behavior
(23:57):
and and limited functionalskills, and so he comes to see
us in the afternoons and we workon those skills with him, you
know.
So it's about making sure thatwe have the right supports in
place and that we can meet thoseneeds in the right age group.
If we're working on socialskills and I have no peers, you
know I'm not doing.
I'm doing that.
(24:17):
That student, that client, aservice.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So so if we, if we come into contact with, with
parents who maybe feel likethey're at their end, they don't
know what else to do, littleJimmy, you know, little Jill is
middle school, high school, andit's not too late, right, we
should tell the parents canreach out and we'll, we'll get
them in the right direction.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah, it's never too late, I think um, you know, the
biggest, uh, the biggest um tipsand the quickest is um one.
We try to identify the functionof whatever behavior is
happening.
If it's inappropriate behavior,why is this happening?
All behaviors communication.
Aba focuses on four mainfunctions, four main reasons why
(25:02):
behaviors occur and kind ofcategorize them accordingly.
And then when we try toidentify, okay, why is it
occurring, what's a moreappropriate way to meet that
need?
Right?
So, like we were talking, aboutearlier yelling right, so
yelling is not necessarilyappropriate.
Okay, what's a more appropriateway to meet that need?
And so that's how we work onreplacement behaviors.
It has to meet that same need,stereotypy.
(25:33):
And so they're like in aclassroom setting, you can
imagine, this is reallydisruptive and it's pretty
consistent and constant.
And so, you know, we try to do acomponent analysis.
Okay, why are we doing this?
Is it the sound?
Is it the vocals?
Do we need headphones?
Can we try music?
Is it the sensation?
Do we need to simulate that insome way?
Right, like recreate that, thatvibration, right.
And so trying to identify, like,really nitpick, what is it that
(25:55):
is reinforcing and maintainingthis behavior?
And so, obviously, that's a.
You know a case by casesituation, but overall there are
.
You know what, why are we doingthis and how can we do this
more appropriately?
And then creating contingencies, and what I mean by that is
when A happens, b happens everytime, and making sure that those
(26:15):
are clear, they're concise andit's consistent.
Right, if I say we do ourhomework and then we get ice
cream and then you do yourhomework three days in a row and
I'm like oh, I forgot, I forgot, I forgot, you're going to stop
doing your homework or you'regoing to stop believing what I
say.
And you know, obviously that'san exaggerated example, but it's
the contingency.
(26:35):
When a happens, b happens everytime and it's clear how to do
that.
It's not, you know, sometimes,and once in a while, and you
know, if we say a contingency,then that's what's going to
happen.
If I hear a lot like, hey, doyou?
If this happens, I'm going tocall mom, well, you're either
going to call mom or you're not.
We're not going to do thisempty threat thing, right, like
if I'm doing this, you'recalling mom, okay, I'm doing
(26:56):
this, we call mom.
Or if I'm doing this, I get X,y, z, okay, then I get it right.
And so making sure that what wesay we mean and that it's clear
and it's to the point and itit's consistent that it happens,
um, every time.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
So I think, like the favorite, my favorite two words
in this entire conversation hasbeen replacement behavior,
because I don't think, I don'tthink we naturally consider the
why behind right, we just wantto tell kids and even adults
that we work with no, you justdo, because I said do, or that's
(27:32):
just how we do it, or you knowa number of different reasons
why, but asking the question,why?
why is it that you know thischild is acting this way?
And I understand the you knowdesire to extinguish certain
behaviors and all that, but whatyou're talking about is you're
you're talking about workingwith the person and not with a
(27:56):
set of rules.
You're talking about findingwhat is it that is going to help
this child to be the best thing.
You know, one of my favorite, uh, professional learnings that we
sat in was when we went and welistened to Rebecca and she says
I'm all, yeah, I'm going to,I'm going to share your secret.
She says, listen, I want tochange the world, and the truth
(28:18):
is that we have an opportunityto do that, and we don't do it
by trying to get people to fitour rules.
We do it by serving each otherand learning each other, and so
I just want you to know thatLaura and I both uh I mean we we
respect and applaud what youguys do and um, and just keep
doing it.
You know, I gotta say there wasa time where I was like ABA,
(28:40):
what is that?
That's just some of that hippiestuff, right, but then, but
then to get to know people thathave done the research, that are
in the field, that are workingwith the kids and to hear your
heart and to hear and to seewhat you're saying in action, um
has been fantastic and I'm I'mdefinitely a believer.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
So definitely yeah, you know, uh, the same aba, just
like anything.
You know there's pros and consand there's people on both sides
of of it and adults who havehad ABA and you know, are
speaking out against it and andbeing in the field, you know
it's, it's, it hurts a littlebit but it's definitely
understandable.
(29:19):
It's the same, you know youit's.
You have a bad doctor, you havea bad teacher, you have a bad
ABA therapist and you know I, Iunderstand it can be done badly,
you know we we are working witha vulnerable population,
population.
You guys are betting in us andand a lot of times, our kids
don't have the words to say, youknow, and and so that's always
(29:41):
our first goal is how can we getthis kid words, whether that's
with picture communication, withsigns, with with actual vocals,
like, how can we get this kidto to express themselves,
however quickest and easiest forthem?
And you know, and that's I'm.
I love to hear that you guysare fans, because you know it's
(30:02):
I, we care so much.
We spend, I'm sure, as you guysdo.
Pillow talk is like what did youthink about this?
How can we?
You know, how can we?
How can we do this better?
And oh, this, this happenedtoday.
And how can we?
You know, how can we?
How can we do this better?
And oh, this, this happenedtoday.
And how can we?
How can we help him?
And it's not about checkingboxes.
I'm not here trying to be likeoh he, he hit.
We can't do that.
How are we going to fix it?
(30:22):
I'm not trying to fix it.
How can, how can I better meetyour needs?
You know, like, what is it thatyou're trying to communicate?
And obviously people, our kids,engage in inappropriate
behavior and it gets hilarious,and you know, and they sometimes
know, and you know, do it onpurpose, and you know, and
that's, you know, understandable, but it's okay, how can we, how
(30:43):
can we meet, meet these kidswhere they are and how can we
meet their needs and how can wehelp them navigate their world?
You know.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Right and so, like, like you said, you know when we
were growing up, it's just like.
This is what it is.
You go to school, you sit inclass, you do your math.
Part of what we do is figuringout these individuals, but also
teaching these individuals tonavigate a world that's not
going to change for them.
Right, so the world is not goingto change for them.
You know that's unfortunate,but I think at least now you
(31:13):
know, in this day and age wehave a lot more understanding.
There's a lot moreunderstanding of you know autism
and some other.
You know deficits and whatthose things need and you know
if we can at least show you knowour learners or our classroom
kids or even the teachers, howto bend this world that we're in
to fit what they need, but alsoteach them the skill sets to be
(31:35):
successful outside of thosesettings or in other settings.
You know that's more importantthan anything.
You know you know collaboratingwith teachers and families and
parents and caregivers andspeech therapists.
It's, you know, it's huge, it'sa big part of what we do.
Unfortunately, it's not alwaysthe easiest, right?
It's like I understand what itwould be like for you know to
(31:59):
show up, you know, first of all,probably potentially
unannounced, and be like, oh hey, I'm here to interview today,
right?
It's like when you, whensomebody says your full name,
it's like you're going to theprincipal's office.
Okay, what did I do wrong?
What are you here to?
You know?
tell me I can't do and we tryvery hard, especially going into
anybody else's setting.
(32:20):
We're not here to judge you.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
We're here to what do you need from me?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
We're here to be on the same team Cause, you know,
whether it's for the wholeclassroom or that specific
individual, or even even for foryou guys like you just might be
like hey, I, I need help andyou know that's great.
Um, one thing I learned a longtime ago working with kids is
you cannot do it by yourself,preach, and that's the best way
(32:44):
to do it is to work as a team.
We don't have to.
We don't necessarily alwayshave to see eye to eye.
We don't even see eye to eyesometimes with programs that you
know we have for you clients atthe clinic, but we both know
that with us, at least, it's.
Our main goal is to give thiskid the best life.
And you know most, most, mostpeople that you know interact
(33:06):
with these kids.
That's what you know thesespeech pathologists, the
teachers you know, and someparas, you know anyone in the
classroom, anyone in you knowtheir speech or any of their
other therapies.
You know that's what they'rethere to do.
And sometimes you know sittingwith these parents the hardest
thing is like just seeing howmuch they struggle to one,
(33:26):
understand what's going on, andtwo to them why is it not normal
?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
One of the things I've said for a long time is
there's no such thing as normalum, you know this, this world
that you talked about, like, oh,you're supposed to.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
This ain't nothing normal about no right so we're
all in therapy now trying toundo it right yes, we're all
just, we're all dysfunctional insome way.
We, some of us just hide itbetter, yeah absolutely but,
it's like how do we worktogether?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
you know, like I know I come into that hi, I'm, you
know, from the district toobserve and like what do you
need from me?
Is usually my first question,because I'm not here to to
question.
I'm not here to judge.
Um, you know this is notnecessarily how I would do
things, but I'm not here toquestion.
I'm not here to judge.
You know this is notnecessarily how I would do
things, but I'm not.
I say it all the time I I got mySPED teaching credential, I
(34:19):
couldn't do it.
That's why I do what I do.
I, you know, more power to youguys, and I mean that, you know.
And so trying to like lessenand take, take people off the
defense, Cause we're all.
You know I'm here to help you.
You know I've ran small groupsbefore.
I'm here to observe a kid overthere.
It's like, okay, you need that.
You're missing a parrot today,Let me jump in.
(34:39):
And you know I can observe thatkid while I'm sitting here.
You know, helping.
And sometimes you know it'slike okay, now we can be friends
, Now we, now we're on the samelevel.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
I've helped you.
Are you okay with me being inyour room now?
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yeah Well, we call it pairing.
There's a strategy in ABAcalled pairing, and we could go
into the technical, but in anapplicable setting it's pairing
yourself with reinforcement.
Hey, I'm here to help you.
So when you see me, you're like,oh, that's the one who will
step in, and we do that withadults too.
For kids, it's like that's theone who will step in, and you
know, and we do that with adultstoo.
For kids, it's like that's theone that gives me the high fives
, that's the one that will giveme Avengers stickers, right, but
we have to do it with adultstoo.
(35:21):
It's hey, that's the one whowill answer my questions, that's
the one who will jump in, right, and that's part of my role.
Role is, our role is as acollaborator, as a provider,
consulting, you know, especiallygoing into to classrooms and
and especially going into homes,right, like that's your domain.
I, I am just here to figure outhow can I make your life easier
(35:43):
, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
So um yeah, good team well, david and rebecca, I
think it's about time for us towrap this up, but let me say so
oftentimes you'll hear peopletalk in different fields and
(36:04):
they'll say all the right thingsand all the right words, but
everything that David andRebecca have shared, with us
like we've seen it andexperienced it firsthand.
We've heard both of them say,hey, we're here to help you, how
can we help?
And then we've seen themactually there and help.
So not just all talk, but thankyou so much for number one,
what you guys do and we get allexcited every time we see you
(36:26):
guys come to the buildingbecause we know that you're
there.
Like I said, you're there toserve these kids, to love these
kids and to help them beeverything that they can be,
regardless of what happensoutside of the building, like it
really is about them.
And also thank you for hangingout with us and doing this
podcast.
Maybe we'll do it againsometime.
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
So we could talk about.
You know what we do all night.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
That's what I was getting ready to say they, you
know what we do.
All that's what I was gettingready to say.
They're like us.
We can talk about our jobs andy'all can talk about your jobs,
I'm sure.
And we, yeah, we do the same.
We do the same thing.
We come home and say, okay, solet's go sit out back and maybe
we'll talk about what are wedoing this weekend.
Well, hey, do you know whathappened today?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And yeah, so Usually it goes more like man, I'm so
tired, yeah, me too.
Let's get home and we justrelax About the time our rear
end hits the seat.
We're talking about work, so,but again, thank you guys, and
we'll talk to you some othertime.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, thank you for having us Sure enough.
so we're going to kick off another one, another
podcast episode, with otherpeople.
I'm very excited about this,and so, uh, a couple weeks ago
we got to have, uh, one of ourfriends, miss limpert, on with
us and that was super cool andwe really enjoyed it.
(00:24):
And then last week we got totalk with another special
education teacher who's been inthis game for a very long time
and Freda Buck.
Todd Zander.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, and Todd Zander and.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Todd Zander.
Yeah, we were very excitedabout that.
So this week we have not justone, but two, yes, and they are
coming to talk with us aboutthis thing.
I'm going to say it's going tobe about ABA, but I think
there's a lot of things that aregoing to fall underneath it,
and so one of the things thatwe're going to have to do after
(00:58):
I introduce you is we're goingto have to probably explain what
all the acronyms are the A Band the A and the B C and the B
A and the all of that stuff.
But today, tonight, thisevening, this episode that's
where I'm going to.
This episode we have Rebeccaand David Johnson.
(01:20):
Did I get that right?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Okay, good, because names are horrible.
True story.
So check this out.
I was doing a wedding andluckily it was a very, very
small one and we're standingthere and so I use the same
wedding script every wedding.
Right, I mean, why wouldn't theworld?
Will we try to reinvent thewheel?
So I get up there and and, uh,I start reading through the
(01:43):
script and I called the guy thewrong name.
Yeah, I was like, oh, yourname's not Tom.
That's kind of the thing.
So even with stuff right infront of me, I still mess up
names.
So we have yes, we have Davidand we have Rebecca with us and
they are.
Correct me if I get this wrong.
(02:03):
You are You're, you know what.
You just tell me and everybodyelse that's listening, which is
pretty much my mom.
I think that you tell them whatit is that you do and what the
little letters around your namemean.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Okay, we are both BCBAs and that is a board
certified behavior analyst bothBCBAs and that is a board
certified behavior analyst.
What that means is we both gotour master's and then took a
certification exam to show thatwe are qualified to have
opinions, sometimes aboutbehavior.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Sometimes I like that .
Speaker 4 (02:41):
This actually is my 11th.
This month is my 11th year ofbeing a BCBA.
I've been in the field of ABAfor about 13 years and this is a
year and a half two years ayear and a half as a BCBA.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I've been in the field since 2016.
So ABA is Applied BehavioralAnalysis and what we do is
basically find what is sociallysignificant for individuals with
autism more specifically, butit can be used in many different
ways ways.
(03:26):
Organizational behaviormanagement OBM is something that
is used, probably more commonlyknown, to help you know where
to put stuff on the shelves, howto stock the shelves so people
can get what they need, the wayto design the supermarket, or
you know one of our favoriteplaces to go Chick-fil-A, the
way they have the doubledrive-thru right.
Those are all things that tryto be more efficient you know
the efficiency of a business.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
But we work with people.
We work with kids primarilydiagnosed with autism, but
that's really just becausethat's the only diagnosis,
insurance will pay for and coverthe therapy.
But we do consult in theschools.
We, you know, have experiencein different settings.
Consult in the schools we, youknow, have experience in
(04:07):
different settings.
Aba is is all around us.
The annoying seatbelt you knowbeeping to put on your seatbelt,
taking medication when you havea headache.
Those are all principles of ABAat work.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
If I'm understanding you correctly, it is in what
ways can we help equip, in thiscase, a child, to better
function in the world aroundthem?
And I think I think there's alot to be said for approaches
like that, because I know that,for instance me, growing up, it
was very common to be told thisis just how you do things, so
(04:43):
you do it, whether you're goodat it or not.
This is how it is, this is howthe school setting is, this is
how and you just got to makethat happen.
And I think something thatwe've learned, laura and I both
in the time that we've been in aspecial education, is that,
yeah, that's not the best way toapproach it Shocking Like it
doesn't, it doesn't quite workthat way shocking, like it
(05:07):
doesn't, it doesn't quite workthat way.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Yeah, yeah, I, um, I go into every assessment and
when I train people and you know, like my ultimate goal is how
can we improve the quality oflife for this individual and
their families because it'sbigger than just them, um, and
also, what skills can we teachthem so that they can be as
independent as possible?
And that looks different forevery individual.
What, what means?
What Johnny's independentpotential is is going to be
(05:31):
different than you know, jenny'sindependent potential, and, and
that's determined by you know,collaborate, collaboration and
figuring out.
What skills do we have now andwhere do you want them to go?
And what is your plan for yourchild and what is your plan,
your five-year plan, where doyou want?
What are your biggest strugglesnow?
You know, in the, when they'reolder, what's the plan?
(05:51):
Are they going to liveindependently?
Are they going to?
You know, figuring out andthat's it's hard as parents to
kind of figure that out, butunfortunately, I think that's a
big part of especially havingstudents with special needs is
something you do have to thinkabout what's the next step,
what's the long term goal?
And kind of figuring out whatthat looks like so we know how
(06:11):
to target right now, so we canplan for that.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That makes definitely makes sense.
There.
You're talking about havingdifferent plans.
Plan.
So, like, what is a uh behaviormanagement plan that you like
describe a successful one, thatyou have um made and that
implemented uh, in the schoolsetting?
(06:37):
And also, how can you take thatand put it in the home setting?
Because, because you guys go to, you have different settings
that you work in.
So maybe first answer that,what are the different settings
that you serve children andfamily and then talk about a
plan you implemented and how yougo from those settings.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So settings you know me personally that I've worked
in other than the clinicalsetting, you know out, in the
community, with multipleindividuals in home, in school.
Also, there was a few clientsthat you know I've attended.
You know, dentist appointments.
Or even something as simple asa haircut.
You know we did that, which Ithought was, you know, probably
(07:23):
one of the coolest things,something that you know most
people would really take forgranted.
You know, being able to get ahaircut.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
You know this family struggled for a long time.
So the settings that you knowwe have gone into is, you know,
just about any setting that thechild will, you know, enter in
their own life or in the life oftheir family.
So you know in each setting isdifferent.
In our clinical setting,obviously, you know we have
(07:50):
control of the environment.
We have control of you know theoutside variables.
You know we can set up therooms in, you know the
situations in the way that weneed to.
But it's not always like that.
So in the classroom, settingsome of the different behavior
management strategies that havebeen used, first and foremost we
try to find positivereinforcement that's going to
(08:11):
motivate to get the specific,correct behaviors that we're
looking for.
One small downfall is typicallysometimes we don't have the
appropriate skill set that weneed to reach the function of
that behavior, appropriate skillset that we need to reach the
function of that behavior.
So, for example, if you knowwe're engaging in, you know, a
(08:34):
disruptive behavior, a scream orsomething you know that could
be to get attention right or toget out of doing something, for
example.
And if we know we scream, youknow everybody looks at us.
That's very quick to us toteach us how to gain that
attention that we're looking forIn an inappropriate way, In an
inappropriate way you knoweverybody looks at us.
That's very quick to us to teachus how to gain that attention
that we're looking for In aninappropriate way.
In an inappropriate way, youknow, because whether it's you
know, the positive socialattention you know great job,
high fives, you know stuff likethat.
Even a reprimand is attentionright.
(08:56):
So that is also going to feedthose attention-seeking
behaviors.
So one thing we have to dofirst is find a replacement
skill for that.
So you know, if Johnny, forexample, needs someone's
attention, whether it's you knowusing their words excuse me, I
need your help or raising a handin classroom, you know, or you
(09:17):
know, tap, hey, we need to teachthose quickly and reinforce
that replacement behavior asheavily as possible.
So that's where we go to first,versus something that has
already been reinforced for atime frame.
You know the screaming and ifwe can get that, you know we're.
We're on a moving track.
So with that, you know, we havedifferent reinforcement systems
typically in the classroom.
(09:38):
One that is easy to implementacross the classroom in
different settings is tokeneconomy, which I think most
teachers are very familiar with.
So it's not having to teachthem a different skill set, it's
teaching them a skill set thatthey already have and how to
specifically implement it.
A couple of different.
You know varieties of it in theclassroom.
We've done individual.
(10:00):
You know token boards for eachkid at their desk.
Know whether it's.
You know four or five kids.
I've been in a classroom we didlike a big wall chart.
Each kid has their name and youknow, as the teacher was
teaching or the parents wereteaching or they were in the,
each student was engaging in theappropriate behavior that we
were looking to gain, whether itwas a hand raise or keeping
their hands themselves.
You know, oh hey, awesome job.
(10:21):
And giving them that shout outand giving them that checkmark
or that stick, that sticker, notjust for them.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Not just for them to see, but for everybody else in
the class to see.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
There's a lot of research to sorry.
There's a lot of research sidequest about public praise, right
, public posting, and one that'seffective because one it's like
oh well, they got praise.
I want that too, so let so, letme do the right thing.
You can individualize it.
Maybe David needs to work onhaving nice hands and his hands
down, but I need to work on notinterrupting and raising my hand
(10:55):
right, so you can individualizeit.
But it's visual, so it's thatvisual reminder.
My name is up there.
Why is my name up there?
Oh right, my name is up there.
You know why is my name upthere?
All right, I need to raise myhand to to get some attention.
So, and there's a lot ofresearch to show the
effectiveness of public posting,so I can't, oh, no, no, you're
(11:18):
fine.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And then typically you know each, each individual
has something that they'reworking for Right, Earn your
five check marks you get, youknow, your, your ball, or your
car, or to read your story, orto just go sit in a rocking
chair, something that you knowis reinforcing that terminal
reinforcer for them which youknow, when we're using the token
economy, we want to gain priorto and it may change while we
(11:40):
work through and get our checkmarks and get our tokens.
But you know, if we don't knowwhat we're working for from the
start, it makes it really hardto be motivating.
And then the simple way we'vetransitioned that into a house.
I worked with this, I workedwith this family and they did
the same thing and they puteverybody's name in the family
on the fridge in the same kindof diagram.
(12:01):
And although it was just for thedaughter, you know, mom's name
was up there, dad's name was upthere, brother's name was up
there.
So anytime anybody engaged inthis appropriate havers, you
know, uh, doing their chores,picking up their stuff, putting
their backpack away where itgoes, finishing their homework.
You know these simple things,um brushing their teeth,
brushing their teeth, notyelling at their sibling.
You know, using kind language,they would get their check marks
(12:22):
, and you know their five checkmarks or their 10 check marks,
and you know we get, uh,whatever it was at the time.
You know time on a tablet.
You know our ice cream treat.
So, um, those are thosepositive reinforcement ways um
to do that.
Um, unfortunately, though, Ithink um Sometimes we get past
that and you know we engage insome challenging behaviors and
(12:44):
we need to find appropriate waysto manage those in the
classroom.
So you know it's important tofind the function of those and
meet that as quickly as possible, and that's where teaching,
that replacement behavior kindof comes into place.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
So these positive charts and, rebecca, you said
they've done a lot of researchon that, and so I'm assuming, by
you saying that, that theyfound that the positive public
charts are more effective thanthe, let's say, the old school
(13:20):
stoplight and where you'rebumping them down for the
negative behavior.
Is that?
Would that be a good assumption?
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, like oh, you lost recess, oh you're on red,
oh, the up and down, the colorcharts.
I think that, right, it goesback to finding the function of
the behavior and that thefunction of my behavior is
attention, whether you move meto red or you move me to blue or
you know wherever in between,or I lost recess, I, I bothered
you, I took time out of yourteaching to to tell me something
(13:54):
, so I got attention right, andso I'm going to continue to do
that, because a lot of times andas parents we do it, and
clinicians we do it, and asteachers we do it we we miss a
lot of the catchy being good,right, it's a lot of.
I see you at your seat, I seeyou yelling, I see you right.
(14:14):
The school has, you know, pbisand they use class dojo a lot.
That's a token economy and Ithink that that can be
implemented really well.
And it can be implemented noteffectively if we only catch
that you're talking in the hall,you've lost a dojo, but we
didn't catch the other 50 times.
I was walking in the hallquietly, right.
(14:34):
So I think that it's definitelyimportant to identify, you know
, making it clear what is itthat, what are, what are we
working on?
What are we trying to do?
Make that clear to everyoneinvolved in like, okay, that's
what we're going to provideattention for, that's what we're
going to give tokens for,that's what you know, that's
what we're going to acknowledgeand bring attention to or
(14:57):
provide reinforcement to.
Is the desired behavior, sayingwhat we want you to do not, hey
, get off the table.
It's like feet on the floor,don't stand on your chair.
It's bottom in your chair.
You know what I mean, liketelling me what I am supposed to
do, especially when we interactwith kids who have a
communication deficit Right.
(15:18):
And so if I say don't stand onthe chair, all I heard was stand
chair right, like I, if I havecommunication deficit.
That's a lot of words that youknow.
The message isn't clear, and soit's really important to be
clear in what our expectationsare.
So I'm gonna tell you what todo.
Hey, let's have safe hands.
You know that's a quick andeasy way.
I'm a big fan of like hey, foldyour hands.
(15:40):
If you're doing this, you can'thit me, you can't pinch me,
Right, and it's a quick, and wecan do this in the store and we
can do it at home, and we can doit in the playground, and we
can do it in the lunchroom, inthe car, we can do it in the car
.
So I'm a big fan of you know,hey, hold your hands.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Instead of don't hit, no, we don't pinch, no, we what
we do, because I'm doing itLike oh yeah, let me show you.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
You know, I know a lot of times you want to be like
don't hit, and I know Iunderstand the desire to do that
, but it's right.
Hold your hands, cause if yourhands are like this, it's really
hard to you know, pinch and dosome of those.
And also you're telling me whatto do and it's, it's to the
point hold your hands, safehands, whatever language you
know we want to use, butpointing out the it's to the
(16:26):
point Hold your hands, safehands, whatever language we want
to use, but pointing out thewhat to do and reinforcing that
desired behavior goes a lotfurther.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And do you see benefits to?
You talked about this strategy,using the same strategy and
same language at school and athome.
Yeah, so I think that'sobviously generalization is
really important in what we do.
Um, working across differentsettings, different environment,
different people implementingthe different things, um, we
would love for you know it to begeneralized in a way that
anybody can say kind of anythingsemi-related to it and they
(17:02):
understand.
Unfortunately, it's not.
It doesn't react that quickly.
Typically, when we teachreplacement behaviors or you
know even that simple fold yourhands or calm hands, it is the
same immediately just to getthat response that way.
Calm hands, great Thanks forcoming.
Calm hands, great, andreinforce that calm hands.
So that would be the SD that wewould teach everybody to use
(17:24):
and it would be really importantto use that because that in our
setting, in the clinic, that'swhat we have used to.
You know, implement that.
This is the behavior, thedesired behavior, we're looking
for.
You know even something assimple as you know having a kid.
Take a break.
You know some of the kidsdepending on their communication
skills hey, bud, you lookfrustrated.
(17:44):
Let's take a break.
You know some of the kidsdepending on their communication
skills.
Hey, bud, you look frustrated.
Let's take a break, right,which is fine if we have that
communication skills, but if wehave the, you know, receptive
and expressive deficits, we needto find a way to, you know,
quickly.
Do that, hey, bud, take a breakor, you know, assign break.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Or a picture of what I think you said blue mat or
blue area.
You said earlier think you saidblue mat or blue, uh, blue area,
you said earlier, whatever thatis, like you know, um, I think
the communication is superimportant.
It's important, um, across allsettings.
And so generalization in thesense of we have the skill here,
we have it's great if in myfour walls we can get this
(18:19):
behavior under control.
But that's not that kid'sreality, right, they're going to
go into the store, they'regoing to go into the school,
they, they're going to go athome and we need to be able to
generalize that skill across allthose settings.
And, like David said, it's it'sideally we can kind of we try to
teach different language sothat they respond the same way,
(18:42):
and it doesn't have to be, inour experience, kids with autism
, or you know, we like routines,we like sameness, but we also
have to teach flexibility andmake it predictable.
And so the model if I model itand I say safe hands and I model
it and I say calm hands and Imodel it and I say hold your
(19:02):
hands right, I'm using differentlanguage so that anybody might
say something different, butthey all mean this.
So that's a way that that's.
Another form of generalizationis that I'm using different
instructions, but the behavioris going to be the same, because
it's really important to teachthat flexibility Right it's.
It's really important that wedon't have to say the same thing
(19:22):
, thing the exact same way inall environments to get that
behavior.
That's not functional for thatindividual.
And so it's important that whenwe're teaching kids, either in
the clinic or in the schoolsetting, that we're embedding
generalization into that andsaying it different ways with
the same model.
And you know.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
So yeah, period you've talked a lot about um.
You're saying you know kids andstudents and whatnot.
Is there an age cap or your agerange like what youngest,
oldest of um individuals youserve?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
um, I've served individuals, uh, the oldest
individual I've personallyworked with, I believe he was 24
.
Um, and you know, with thisindividual we work um, he um,
you know, very, uh, ourcommunication skills were great
Um, some, some things in theworld we didn't understand
(20:20):
because it wasn't, you know,routine and regimented, um,
right.
So some of the things we workedon is he, he had a, a big
desire to get his GED, um, andthen get a job, um, and he
wanted to work at Taco Bell,which I love because, uh, you
know, I support the Baja Blast.
Um, so you know, the differentthings we worked on is one
figuring out, okay, what are thesteps that we need to do to be
(20:43):
able to take that test?
Okay, right, so we figured thatout, I said, and then, you know
, we sat down okay, what isgoing to be on that test and
what do we need to be ready for?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Oops, I think we froze, they froze.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
And he got I'm sorry, hi, um, hi, hey, we're back.
We figured out all the steps,right, um, and you know we got
it scheduled and he figured outhow to get there.
And you know he didn't drive.
So it's like, okay, well, ifyour parents can't take you,
what are other ways we can getthere?
He's like, okay, we can call anuber.
Um, I didn't really follow upon how he got there, but he got
there, he took it.
You know, he passed test and,as far as I know, he, you know,
(21:24):
landed that job at Taco Bellbecause we worked on job
applications and interviews andstuff like that.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
We don't in in the clinic.
I've primarily in the clinicsetting and in the school
setting.
We don't really have an agelimit.
It's as soon as kids can getdiagnosed again, because
insurance only pays for adiagnosis.
And as far as an age cap, weprimarily work with children but
also ABA can be effective inany realm of life abilities.
(21:52):
But it's really what'sappropriate and what's
functional.
If I have a bunch oftwo-year-olds in the building
and I have an 18-year-old whoneeds services to work on job
applications, that's not reallyfunctional or appropriate for
that individual and so am Igoing to be able to serve his
needs?
Probably not in that setting,because right now our building
(22:14):
is filled with, you know, earlyintervention age.
So it's kind of looking at thatas far as ABA and what as a
BCBA.
It's kind of looking at that asfar as ABA and what as a BCBA
right limits?
There aren't really any.
Our ethical code dictates wework within our scope of what we
know and what we haveexperience with in practice can
(22:34):
do effectively and ethically,but also from a from a clinic
standpoint.
Taking that into consideration,can I meet your needs from a
clinic standpoint?
Taking that into consideration,can I meet your needs Right.
Can I?
Is this an appropriate settingfor you to be around at 24?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
to be around?
Speaker 4 (22:49):
probably not.
And so taking that into account,or flip side right, if I have a
bunch of 18 year olds,teenagers, is it appropriate to
then have a three-year-old come?
And you know, so it's justtaking that into account.
And and if we can meet yourneeds, and that's you know.
So it's just taking that intoaccount and and if we can meet
your needs, and that's you know,on an individual clinic basis,
(23:11):
but as a, as a field, thereisn't really a limit.
We currently, in our companywhere we work, serve, I think
our youngest is two Um, and theoldest we currently have is uh
16.
Um and so um.
My baby cannot be 17, uh,anyway, so um, um.
(23:37):
But we, you know, we worked outthe schedule so we have age-like
peers at certain, becausethat's that's the skill we're
working on with that individualum, you know, we have different
individuals.
We have a um 11, 14, 14 year,14 year old who has very minimal
communication and some, youknow, self injurious behavior
(23:57):
and and limited functionalskills, and so he comes to see
us in the afternoons and we workon those skills with him, you
know.
So it's about making sure thatwe have the right supports in
place and that we can meet thoseneeds in the right age group.
If we're working on socialskills and I have no peers, you
know I'm not doing.
I'm doing that.
(24:17):
That student, that client, aservice.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So so if we, if we come into contact with, with
parents who maybe feel likethey're at their end, they don't
know what else to do, littleJimmy, you know, little Jill is
middle school, high school, andit's not too late, right, we
should tell the parents canreach out and we'll, we'll get
them in the right direction.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah, it's never too late, I think um, you know, the
biggest, uh, the biggest um tipsand the quickest is um one.
We try to identify the functionof whatever behavior is
happening.
If it's inappropriate behavior,why is this happening?
All behaviors communication.
Aba focuses on four mainfunctions, four main reasons why
(25:02):
behaviors occur and kind ofcategorize them accordingly.
And then when we try toidentify, okay, why is it
occurring, what's a moreappropriate way to meet that
need?
Right?
So, like we were talking, aboutearlier yelling right, so
yelling is not necessarilyappropriate.
Okay, what's a more appropriateway to meet that need?
And so that's how we work onreplacement behaviors.
It has to meet that same need,stereotypy.
(25:33):
And so they're like in aclassroom setting, you can
imagine, this is reallydisruptive and it's pretty
consistent and constant.
And so, you know, we try to do acomponent analysis.
Okay, why are we doing this?
Is it the sound?
Is it the vocals?
Do we need headphones?
Can we try music?
Is it the sensation?
Do we need to simulate that insome way?
Right, like recreate that, thatvibration, right.
And so trying to identify, like,really nitpick, what is it that
(25:55):
is reinforcing and maintainingthis behavior?
And so, obviously, that's a.
You know a case by casesituation, but overall there are
.
You know what, why are we doingthis and how can we do this
more appropriately?
And then creating contingencies, and what I mean by that is
when A happens, b happens everytime, and making sure that those
(26:15):
are clear, they're concise andit's consistent.
Right, if I say we do ourhomework and then we get ice
cream and then you do yourhomework three days in a row and
I'm like oh, I forgot, I forgot, I forgot, you're going to stop
doing your homework or you'regoing to stop believing what I
say.
And you know, obviously that'san exaggerated example, but it's
the contingency.
(26:35):
When a happens, b happens everytime and it's clear how to do
that.
It's not, you know, sometimes,and once in a while, and you
know, if we say a contingency,then that's what's going to
happen.
If I hear a lot like, hey, doyou?
If this happens, I'm going tocall mom, well, you're either
going to call mom or you're not.
We're not going to do thisempty threat thing, right, like
if I'm doing this, you'recalling mom, okay, I'm doing
(26:56):
this, we call mom.
Or if I'm doing this, I get X,y, z, okay, then I get it right.
And so making sure that what wesay we mean and that it's clear
and it's to the point and itit's consistent that it happens,
um, every time.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
So I think, like the favorite, my favorite two words
in this entire conversation hasbeen replacement behavior,
because I don't think, I don'tthink we naturally consider the
why behind right, we just wantto tell kids and even adults
that we work with no, you justdo, because I said do, or that's
(27:32):
just how we do it, or you knowa number of different reasons
why, but asking the question,why?
why is it that you know thischild is acting this way?
And I understand the you knowdesire to extinguish certain
behaviors and all that, but whatyou're talking about is you're
you're talking about workingwith the person and not with a
(27:56):
set of rules.
You're talking about findingwhat is it that is going to help
this child to be the best thing.
You know, one of my favorite, uh, professional learnings that we
sat in was when we went and welistened to Rebecca and she says
I'm all, yeah, I'm going to,I'm going to share your secret.
She says, listen, I want tochange the world, and the truth
(28:18):
is that we have an opportunityto do that, and we don't do it
by trying to get people to fitour rules.
We do it by serving each otherand learning each other, and so
I just want you to know thatLaura and I both uh I mean we we
respect and applaud what youguys do and um, and just keep
doing it.
You know, I gotta say there wasa time where I was like ABA,
(28:40):
what is that?
That's just some of that hippiestuff, right, but then, but
then to get to know people thathave done the research, that are
in the field, that are workingwith the kids and to hear your
heart and to hear and to seewhat you're saying in action, um
has been fantastic and I'm I'mdefinitely a believer.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
So definitely yeah, you know, uh, the same aba, just
like anything.
You know there's pros and consand there's people on both sides
of of it and adults who havehad ABA and you know, are
speaking out against it and andbeing in the field, you know
it's, it's, it hurts a littlebit but it's definitely
understandable.
(29:19):
It's the same, you know youit's.
You have a bad doctor, you havea bad teacher, you have a bad
ABA therapist and you know I, Iunderstand it can be done badly,
you know we we are working witha vulnerable population,
population.
You guys are betting in us andand a lot of times, our kids
don't have the words to say, youknow, and and so that's always
(29:41):
our first goal is how can we getthis kid words, whether that's
with picture communication, withsigns, with with actual vocals,
like, how can we get this kidto to express themselves,
however quickest and easiest forthem?
And you know, and that's I'm.
I love to hear that you guysare fans, because you know it's
(30:02):
I, we care so much.
We spend, I'm sure, as you guysdo.
Pillow talk is like what did youthink about this?
How can we?
You know, how can we?
How can we do this better?
And oh, this, this happenedtoday.
And how can we?
You know, how can we?
How can we do this better?
And oh, this, this happenedtoday.
And how can we?
How can we help him?
And it's not about checkingboxes.
I'm not here trying to be likeoh he, he hit.
We can't do that.
How are we going to fix it?
(30:22):
I'm not trying to fix it.
How can, how can I better meetyour needs?
You know, like, what is it thatyou're trying to communicate?
And obviously people, our kids,engage in inappropriate
behavior and it gets hilarious,and you know, and they sometimes
know, and you know, do it onpurpose, and you know, and
that's, you know, understandable, but it's okay, how can we, how
(30:43):
can we meet, meet these kidswhere they are and how can we
meet their needs and how can wehelp them navigate their world?
You know.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Right and so, like, like you said, you know when we
were growing up, it's just like.
This is what it is.
You go to school, you sit inclass, you do your math.
Part of what we do is figuringout these individuals, but also
teaching these individuals tonavigate a world that's not
going to change for them.
Right, so the world is not goingto change for them.
You know that's unfortunate,but I think at least now you
(31:13):
know, in this day and age wehave a lot more understanding.
There's a lot moreunderstanding of you know autism
and some other.
You know deficits and whatthose things need and you know
if we can at least show you knowour learners or our classroom
kids or even the teachers, howto bend this world that we're in
to fit what they need, but alsoteach them the skill sets to be
(31:35):
successful outside of thosesettings or in other settings.
You know that's more importantthan anything.
You know you know collaboratingwith teachers and families and
parents and caregivers andspeech therapists.
It's, you know, it's huge, it'sa big part of what we do.
Unfortunately, it's not alwaysthe easiest, right?
It's like I understand what itwould be like for you know to
(31:59):
show up, you know, first of all,probably potentially
unannounced, and be like, oh hey, I'm here to interview today,
right?
It's like when you, whensomebody says your full name,
it's like you're going to theprincipal's office.
Okay, what did I do wrong?
What are you here to?
You know?
tell me I can't do and we tryvery hard, especially going into
anybody else's setting.
(32:20):
We're not here to judge you.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
We're here to what do you need from me?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
We're here to be on the same team Cause, you know,
whether it's for the wholeclassroom or that specific
individual, or even even for foryou guys like you just might be
like hey, I, I need help andyou know that's great.
Um, one thing I learned a longtime ago working with kids is
you cannot do it by yourself,preach, and that's the best way
(32:44):
to do it is to work as a team.
We don't have to.
We don't necessarily alwayshave to see eye to eye.
We don't even see eye to eyesometimes with programs that you
know we have for you clients atthe clinic, but we both know
that with us, at least, it's.
Our main goal is to give thiskid the best life.
And you know most, most, mostpeople that you know interact
(33:06):
with these kids.
That's what you know thesespeech pathologists, the
teachers you know, and someparas, you know anyone in the
classroom, anyone in you knowtheir speech or any of their
other therapies.
You know that's what they'rethere to do.
And sometimes you know sittingwith these parents the hardest
thing is like just seeing howmuch they struggle to one,
(33:26):
understand what's going on, andtwo to them why is it not normal
?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
One of the things I've said for a long time is
there's no such thing as normalum, you know this, this world
that you talked about, like, oh,you're supposed to.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
This ain't nothing normal about no right so we're
all in therapy now trying toundo it right yes, we're all
just, we're all dysfunctional insome way.
We, some of us just hide itbetter, yeah absolutely but,
it's like how do we worktogether?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
you know, like I know I come into that hi, I'm, you
know, from the district toobserve and like what do you
need from me?
Is usually my first question,because I'm not here to to
question.
I'm not here to judge.
Um, you know this is notnecessarily how I would do
things, but I'm not here toquestion.
I'm not here to judge.
You know this is notnecessarily how I would do
things, but I'm not.
I say it all the time I I got mySPED teaching credential, I
(34:19):
couldn't do it.
That's why I do what I do.
I, you know, more power to youguys, and I mean that, you know.
And so trying to like lessenand take, take people off the
defense, Cause we're all.
You know I'm here to help you.
You know I've ran small groupsbefore.
I'm here to observe a kid overthere.
It's like, okay, you need that.
You're missing a parrot today,Let me jump in.
(34:39):
And you know I can observe thatkid while I'm sitting here.
You know, helping.
And sometimes you know it'slike okay, now we can be friends
, Now we, now we're on the samelevel.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
I've helped you.
Are you okay with me being inyour room now?
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yeah Well, we call it pairing.
There's a strategy in ABAcalled pairing, and we could go
into the technical, but in anapplicable setting it's pairing
yourself with reinforcement.
Hey, I'm here to help you.
So when you see me, you're like,oh, that's the one who will
step in, and we do that withadults too.
For kids, it's like that's theone who will step in, and you
know, and we do that with adultstoo.
For kids, it's like that's theone that gives me the high fives
, that's the one that will giveme Avengers stickers, right, but
we have to do it with adultstoo.
(35:21):
It's hey, that's the one whowill answer my questions, that's
the one who will jump in, right, and that's part of my role.
Role is, our role is as acollaborator, as a provider,
consulting, you know, especiallygoing into to classrooms and
and especially going into homes,right, like that's your domain.
I, I am just here to figure outhow can I make your life easier
(35:43):
, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
So um yeah, good team well, david and rebecca, I
think it's about time for us towrap this up, but let me say so
oftentimes you'll hear peopletalk in different fields and
(36:04):
they'll say all the right thingsand all the right words, but
everything that David andRebecca have shared, with us
like we've seen it andexperienced it firsthand.
We've heard both of them say,hey, we're here to help you, how
can we help?
And then we've seen themactually there and help.
So not just all talk, but thankyou so much for number one,
what you guys do and we get allexcited every time we see you
(36:26):
guys come to the buildingbecause we know that you're
there.
Like I said, you're there toserve these kids, to love these
kids and to help them beeverything that they can be,
regardless of what happensoutside of the building, like it
really is about them.
And also thank you for hangingout with us and doing this
podcast.
Maybe we'll do it againsometime.
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
So we could talk about.
You know what we do all night.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
That's what I was getting ready to say they, you
know what we do.
All that's what I was gettingready to say.
They're like us.
We can talk about our jobs andy'all can talk about your jobs,
I'm sure.
And we, yeah, we do the same.
We do the same thing.
We come home and say, okay, solet's go sit out back and maybe
we'll talk about what are wedoing this weekend.
Well, hey, do you know whathappened today?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And yeah, so Usually it goes more like man, I'm so
tired, yeah, me too.
Let's get home and we justrelax About the time our rear
end hits the seat.
We're talking about work, so,but again, thank you guys, and
we'll talk to you some othertime.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, thank you for having us Sure enough.
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