January 23, 2025 • 34 mins
Discover the complexities and triumphs of educational inclusion as we navigate the unexpected chill of Southeast Georgia's weather, drawing us indoors for a reflective conversation. Learn how to transform educational spaces into inclusive environments that empower students with disabilities to learn alongside their peers. With insights from parents and teachers, we explore what true inclusion entails, going beyond mere integration to ensure students receive the tailored support they need through individualized education plans (IEPs).
We unravel the challenges of achieving genuine inclusion in education, emphasizing that it involves more than just placing students with disabilities in general classrooms. Our experiences in various educational roles highlight the necessity of personalized strategies, sharing tales of both success and failure. Balancing diverse educational needs within classrooms is no small feat, but finding effective solutions is pivotal for each student's academic journey. Collaboration is key, and we dive into the importance of early intervention, open communication among educators, and teacher training to foster successful inclusion.
Join us as we share practical tips for teachers and parents on fostering inclusive environments. Discover the power of teamwork between parents and schools, and the importance of keeping the student's needs at the forefront of every decision. Engaging in open dialogue and exploring every avenue for inclusion can make all the difference, echoing the belief that change is possible for everyone involved. With inspiration from an iconic moment in "Rocky IV," we underscore the potential for transformation and the shared goal of creating a world where every student can succeed.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
at the time of this recording.
We've been in this house fordays at least the sun's out
right now yeah, it's been coldlike silly cold.
So, for those that do not know,we reside in southeast georgia
and you know, typically when Itell people that we live in
Georgia, their response is oh,near Atlanta, no, no, no, no, we
(00:29):
live closer to Jacksonville,florida, and so we're right.
I think we're about like maybeseven miles or so from the
border, so we are not used tosuper cold.
Like we get a week of winter,it seems like every year, where
we have to pull out the bigjackets and cover our hands and
(00:51):
all of that.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's usually not even until February.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Right, and so what we've had in the past couple
days is, in some areas close tous, there's been snow.
I've got friends that haveposted pictures of beaches
covered in snow.
I've got friends that have, youknow, posted pictures of
beaches covered in snow.
Now we didn't get snow as muchas we got ice everywhere, and I
haven't lived up north in a verylong time, and so I am
(01:17):
incredibly thin skinned.
My blood is.
Is is pretty.
Uh, what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Thin.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Thin, it's watery even, and so, yeah, so we're
kind of hiding out in the houseand figured, hey, this is a good
time to put together aconversation about inclusion Now
, we've talked about inclusionbefore a handful of episodes
back Now, we've talked aboutinclusion before a handful of
(02:01):
episodes back.
But what we want to do today iswe want to approach inclusion
from the standpoint of a parent,from the standpoint of a
teacher, and kind, probably areally good idea to provide a
definition on what inclusion is.
Because what I've learned isthat as a society we have become
okay with minimizingdefinitions, okay with allowing
(02:27):
it, and when I say allowing Idon't mean like controlling, but
kind of assuming that when wego into conversations that
everybody uses the samedefinitions as we do.
And here's a quick thing aboutthe American language.
I was in a.
I had a class, golly, years agoin seminary when I had an
instructor talk to me about itwas one of the Greek classes.
So Greek is for those of youthat have done it, and get it
(02:52):
good on you.
It was a struggle for me.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I think there's a reason, there's a term that says
yeah, it's just, it's Greek tome.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah.
So this instructor was talkingabout context right, and reading
things in context and allowingcontext to build what it is that
build the perspective that youhave, build the foundation for
your conversation.
And he told us a story aboutmeeting somebody that worked for
(03:18):
Merriam-Webster's dictionary.
And my instructor said to thisfriend of his that must be
really cool having a job thatdictates how the entire country
defines words.
He said you'd be surprised thatit actually works the other way
(03:38):
, that usage of the word overtime and that usage of the word
over time shapes the definition.
And so what he was saying isthat as the years go on and
people use words, it will beginto change its definition over
(03:59):
time and be something completelydifferent than it was 20 years
ago Now at a very likesurface-level conversation.
You know, when we were growingup, there were certain words
that you know that we used askids, that adults looked at us
and thought that's crazy, like,that doesn't even make sense.
And now, even today, we hearkids use words and we find
(04:22):
ourselves trying to figure outwhere in the world did that even
come from?
Right, right, no, cap, what,like why would anybody say that?
But then, like we said things,rad and Bad man.
That's bad.
That's bad.
What do you?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
mean it's bad.
No, it's not bad, it's good.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
No, no, no, mom bad.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
That's bad.
What do you mean?
It's bad?
No, it's not bad, it's good.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
No, no, no, mom Right , they're so old, they just deal
with the times.
But anyway, I said all of thatto say for this conversation to
go forward, it's probably areally good idea to lay out our
definition of what inclusion is,is, and so that way, if anybody
were to listen to this you know, anybody other than my mom and
(05:08):
had some questions or commentsor something they want to add to
the conversation we're movingfrom, we're starting on that
same platform of the definitionof inclusion.
So, laura, yes, can you defineinclusion for this conversation?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yes, so according to the National Education
Association, or the NEA, theIndividuals with Disabilities
Education Act, or IDEA, definesinclusion in special education
as providing students withdisabilities access to general
education classrooms andcurriculum.
It's also known as a leastrestrictive environment, or LRE
(05:54):
so, and it aims to createlearning environments where all
students can learn together.
And, as we've talked before,these students with disabilities
, we're talking about studentsthat have an IEP.
We say it all the time the I isindividualized, so not only is
their plan individualized, soshould their inclusion be
(06:19):
individualized and not just be ablanket.
Either they're all in or allout.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, I'm glad that you added that second part,
because if we would have stoppedthat access, that could cause
someone to believe thatinclusion is simply having a
child with a disability put in aclassroom with kids that may
not have a disability or maybeyou know their development is
(06:46):
typical, but we know thatinclusion is so much more than
just putting a kid in aclassroom, right, right.
So if it was just access, wellthen shove them all in, and I've
heard stories of districts thatdo that, that there are schools
that would take profoundlydisabled kids and put them in
(07:08):
the same classroom with kidsthat are receiving more support
for, say, a learning disability,and those that are typically
developing.
So you have all these kids justcrammed into one room with six,
seven adults, the idea beingthat, well, you have all these.
(07:28):
The number game is very popular, and so the thought is well, if
there's all these adults in aclassroom, if we've got nine
adults in a classroom with 30kids, I mean that's a three to
one, that's not bad, and that'swhat happens when we play the
number game.
Now, anybody that has ever beenin a classroom before knows that
(07:49):
the situation that I justdescribed is scary.
It'd drive anybody crazylistening to soft, sweet music
in my ears while rocking backand forth?
That would be horrible for me.
(08:10):
But again, inclusion is so muchmore than just access.
It's so much more than justbeing put into a classroom.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
You have to provide those students with
accommodations and the supportneeded for them to be successful
in that setting, whether thatmeans successful academically,
successful socially,functionally they need to be.
These supports andaccommodations need to be
(08:40):
provided so they can have be assuccessful as possible when
they're in that setting.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
We've had some pretty interesting experiences.
We've been able to worktogether, and this is our fifth
year working together, side byside, and prior to that I had
three years in the co-teachsetting and I know that you, as
a para, you worked in a specialeducation classroom.
I know that you worked in thegeneral education classroom at a
(09:12):
kindergarten level, where yousaw students of all different
abilities even at that age, atthat early age of five.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And so and so there's been, we've had a good bit of
interaction with what aresupposed to be inclusion
opportunities and what we foundis like what you just said, is
that that individualized part ishuge.
Like I can think of one studentthat I that I worked with and
(09:46):
they were.
I mean they struggled in thegeneral education classroom and
they were in the classroombecause the parent just nope, I
just want them in there, justnope, I just want them in there.
Unfortunately, this studentcouldn't read, couldn't write.
(10:24):
That classroom with the studentfor 45 to 50 minutes for math
and 45 to 50 minutes for Englishlanguage arts.
This student was not set up forsuccess.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And you're not talking about a kindergarten
student.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I am not talking about a kindergarten student.
Yeah, this isn't an early gradelike a kindergarten first grade
.
This was an older student andso that's sad, because while
this particular student wasengaging socially, they were
(11:02):
able to take advantage of that.
The extent of their educationwas next to nothing.
And unfortunately we'll seethings like that happen and
students just be kind of pushedalong and really not engaging
academically where they need to.
(11:23):
And so then there's one picture.
Then we can flip that too to atime when I had another student.
That was was when I first gotthe student was pretty
aggressive, um, handled, handledredirection and direction not
(11:52):
very well at all, but thestudent had a pretty high
aptitude, like they could learn,they were smart, and what kept
them from spending time in thegeneral education classroom was
this behavior.
And so you know I do everythingI can to help the student get
(12:17):
out into that general setting,because in the settings that we
work in currently settings thatwe work in currently it is very
hard for the students to get aneducation that helps them to
progress academically, right?
So if we were to talk about,like our current setting, having
(12:39):
the self-contained adaptive,adaptive curriculum inside that
group, it is incredibly hard tocover the full spectrum of
education, right?
Right, it's hard to have agroup of seven, eight, nine
students whose aptitude is, Imean, they're just, you couldn't
(13:07):
get any further and try toallow them access to the
standards and academically grow.
It's very, very difficult.
And so there's kind of this, Idon't know this kind of like
issue of what do we do withthese students.
(13:30):
And so go ahead and answer thatquestion, laura, what do we do
with the students?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I just want to put a little bit, a little
clarification there too.
And you're talking about, youknow, the students and their
ability to learn.
Of course, all our students areable to learn, and when you
were talking about the students'ability to learn, that they
could learn, you meant learningat a grade level, right Learning
(13:59):
at their grade level, versus atan adapted level.
I'm not saying they can't learnat all, you're not saying that
the rest of our students can'tlearn.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The ones in our class ?
Well, no, they don't need to bein here because they can't
learn.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Just wanted to clarify that little bit right
there and then to answer thatquestion.
What do we do?
Is what we like to say?
We push them out, we try to ourgoal and we say this in kind of
(14:36):
a kidding, not kidding our goalis to get our kids out of our
rooms.
As much as we love our kids, ifwe can get them out of our
rooms as much as possible and inthat inclusion setting, then
that means the world to us.
However, we also have foundthat sometimes some of our
(15:00):
students that are higherachieving achieving and more
functional in our rooms it canbe deceptive because we have
them in our rooms and oh well,you know, maybe the student, and
then they get into thatclassroom and it's difficult for
(15:20):
them to keep up.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
So it's you know it's .
It's an affirmation that theyare functioning best in our
class, academically and sociallyright, so that forcing them
into that setting is not goingto help both sides of that the
social, emotional and theacademic.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Right, right, but we're also firm believers in
trying it as as much as we canand as early as we can.
That we've said just with abouteverything in this industry.
This field is that earlyintervention, early detection,
early intervention, interventionand why not try, when you have
(16:11):
these little ones inkindergarten, and try to have
them in kindergarten as much aspossible, because, one, they're
kindergarten and they're goingto be immature, they're going to
develop it in different ways,because you have some kids that
go into kindergarten and turnfive in a matter of weeks and
then you have other ones thatare in kindergarten and aren't
(16:33):
going to turn five until lateron in the school year.
So you know, so those are kindof our experiences that we just
push it out, and we've had great, great teachers that have, um,
some of them seasoned, said yes,give, give, give me them all,
just give them all to me, andthen other ones that are like,
(16:55):
okay, so how am I supposed to dothis with these students and
this, this student and, um, youknow, and so that all the
teachers' experiences aredifferent.
We also have teachers that arewilling.
However, their preparationcourses don't necessarily teach
them extensively on how to teachstudents with disabilities.
(17:19):
They may have a course or twoon how to help the lower
achieving students in theirclassroom with disabilities not
necessarily students that havemore challenging, more
(17:41):
challenges learning than theirtypical developing peers.
So our experience has kind ofbeen all over with inclusion.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So if our goal is to see our students progress
academically and socially,emotionally, to the fullest
extent right, we want to seethem become the best all-around
individual that they can, how dowe make that happen?
And I think that you reallymade a point in what you were
(18:17):
just saying about the importanceof conversation, right.
So we've had, we've worked withdifferent teachers that, like
you said, I know what I want todo with them, I know how I'll
include them, I know theyalready have that, that
perspective, knowledge right.
(18:38):
But I think equally as importantis to have the teacher that
says I don't, I don't knowexactly what to do, I don't know
what to do with this student, Idon't know what the best
approach would be.
And that's hard to do.
That's hard to do as adults,that's hard to do as teachers is
(18:59):
to say, especially if we'vebeen doing it for a while, to
say I don't know.
And so I think that it has tostart a conversation If we're
going to be successful inserving the whole child, which
is what our goal should be.
Now, if you're a teacher andyour whole thing is I just want
(19:20):
to have a schedule that matchesmy kids and not have to work in
the summer.
Go do something else, like forreal.
Just go do something elsebecause you're not doing
yourself any good, you're notdoing the kids any good.
Just find something else to do.
But I believe that I don't knowif I've met a teacher Let me
think about this I don't thinkI've met a teacher that gave me
(19:45):
the impression they don't careabout the kids.
So if they're out there,they're few and far between
Right.
And so if we can tie to thatgoal of helping the child be
successful, I think step one isconversations, again being
willing to say I don't know whatto do, and to collaborate with
each other to talk about ways tobest serve these kids.
(20:06):
But what are some other thingsthat need to happen for us to be
successful?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, like I said, this conversation, that
collaboration is key Becausewe've had students that we share
with the gen ed teachers andthen they also possibly are in
the classroom when the co-labteacher comes in and serves.
So then the co-lab teacher hasquestions and, look, I mean
(20:33):
we've worked with some greatco-lab teachers that are willing
to take on the responsibilityof working with students even
though they're not technicallytheir responsibility.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Not necessarily on their caseload that love the
students and want though they'renot technically their
responsibility Right.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Not necessarily on their caseload, that love the
students and want to see thembenefit and like, hey, if you
can help them and I can helpthem and we all can help them.
And so the hard part there isthat collaboration time, because
okay, well, this teacher has.
Well, we had one teacher try toschedule a meeting and say,
(21:07):
okay, can we talk first thing inthe morning?
And it's like, okay, well, theyget here at this time, but then
this one they have this amountof time in the morning and then
you know, we start receivingchildren earlier than this one,
and so it's like we can give youfive minutes or we can catch
(21:29):
each other in the hallway maybe.
So that's one of the things, atleast at a school level, that
those teachers need to beprovided with some time to talk.
And then the parents need to beincluded as well.
And you know you've said beforethat we're not assuming that
(21:49):
these parents don't know orunderstand.
You know what is offered and weknow that we have parents that
you know research and look andsay, no, this is what I want for
my children or my child.
But you know, parents need tobe involved in those
conversations and I thinkparents need to be aware that
(22:11):
their voice is important in this.
I recently had parents tell meso well, you know you're the
teacher, so whatever you thinkis best we should do, and I told
absolutely not.
No, that's not how it shouldwork, because you're their
parent and your desires areimportant, and parents need to
(22:36):
know that if you want a certainsetting for your child, then
these things should be done toaccommodate that to a I don't
know what word I'm looking forthere rational level.
(22:57):
I guess you would say You'regoing to have team members that
disagree, but I think in the endwhat needs to be looked at is
what is in the best interest ofthe student.
Pulling them out just to pullthem out does them no good.
Push them in just to push themin sometimes is more harmful.
(23:17):
But providing it goes back toproviding support support to the
teacher, support to the student, support to the support staff
that might be working with them.
That's one of those things thatneed to happen, for those are
(23:39):
some of the things that need tohappen for inclusion to be
successful.
As far as also training hisgeneral education, teachers
aren't often equipped how toinstruct students with
disabilities.
Paraprofessionals aren't always, don't always, receive training
(24:04):
in how to support students withdisabilities, how to modify
some of their work.
We're fortunate to have afantastic staff for some of our
children that go into thegeneral education classes and
that can say, okay, so they'reworking on this.
(24:25):
And I was thinking that maybesomething like this do we have
anything that I can take with meso they can still be working,
but not necessarily this level.
And, however, all support staffhaven't received that kind of
training or instruction or havethat knowledge.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I know, as human beings, it's not uncommon to not
be able to see past what you'rein the middle of at the time,
right, and so it's easy for ateacher to, and it makes sense
to be focused on what ishappening between these hours at
(25:06):
school, right?
So this is what I see from thestudent at this time and not
consider another perspectiveoutside.
I'm not saying you won't listento another perspective or
anything like that, but thethought doesn't often even cross
the mind, because this is whatI'm dealing with right in front
(25:28):
of me, and I know that we justrecently realized that.
You know, we never askedparents like where do you, where
do you see your child going?
What does it look like to youbased on your interactions with
your child, right?
What do you see for middleschool, high school, you know,
post-secondary?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
What is it that, based on your experience, based
on your time with your studentor your child, what do you see?
Because everything that we talkabout is going to be, from what
we experience in these walls,our job.
We don't work in other settings.
We're not like the ABAtherapist or the occupational
(26:11):
therapist or the speech andlanguage pathologist, who often
work outside of the schoolsystem as well.
We just see them inside of ourwalls, and so it's important to
be able to take those twopictures and put them together,
because without doing that,we're trying to solve a puzzle
(26:32):
without the box.
All right, we've got pieces.
I've got my puzzle piece inschool, parent, you've got your
puzzle piece at home and withfamily, and when you go to the
grocery store and when you go toWalmart and when you go to
(26:52):
church and whatever it is thatyour life is built around.
But we have to be able to takethose things and put them
together, and that doesn'thappen unless we have
conversations teachers havingconversations with teachers, gen
Ed SPED, parents havingconversations with Gen Ed SPED
(27:13):
and really looking for whatneeds to happen to help get that
student to where where,collectively, we believe that
they can go or should go rightum yeah, dropping stuff, it's
all right.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I, yeah, I agree 100 that the first step in
successful inclusion iscommunication, and whether it be
emails or set up a meeting, and, as we all know that our
schedules are different, ourtimes that we're serving kids
(27:52):
are different and our planningis usually different, and so
just trying to find some commontime to meet and discuss these
things are important, and so Imean there's some things that
we'll go.
You know, briefly, some tips,just to get started.
(28:15):
If you go back to work nextweek and you're a teacher and,
hey, guess what, the studentscome into your class.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Because it could happen.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Right, you know what do you do.
Or a parent, you know youdecide that, okay, hey, I want
my child to be included more.
What do you do?
So a couple of things as far asteachers, what they can do to
ensure that the students thatare coming into their class have
(28:47):
a space for them and I knowspace is precious in these
classrooms.
There's a lot of things thatneed to be in classrooms, but if
you can give these students aplace that's theirs you don't
understand how huge that is,whether that's a desk, or if you
have tables you give them aseat at the table with their
(29:12):
peers instead of okay, they cansit at this back table, back
here, because that's really notinclusion and invite them to
your parties, whether it beclass parties.
Ensure that the students cominginto your classroom get invited
to field trips and we've gotsome teachers that do this
(29:35):
already.
We're fortunate to have themand when they're on these field
trips, let them, you know, makesure that they're not.
Let them make sure that they'reincluded in the groupings and
included in the pictures and thelunches, because they're coming
into your classroom, they'repart of your class and help them
(29:58):
.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Help them feel like that they're part of your class
and help them feel like that.
So another thing that I wouldwant to add to that, as far as a
teacher goes that has theinclusion setting and we've
already talked about askingquestions, but I would even go
as far as to you know, let mepush pause on that let's talk
(30:21):
about just for a second, theinclusion teacher.
Like us, we should be havingconversations with those general
education and co-teach teachersas well Because, like you said
earlier, you know we see ourkids operating in our setting
(30:43):
and there's oftentimes thingsthat we see that would help us
or cause us to believe that theymight work, might be able to
get some more inclusion time,and so for those things to
happen, there's got to be thatconnection with the excuse me
the adaptive teacher and theinclusion teacher to talk about
those things.
(31:03):
What do you think the best wayto try this out would be and we
see more of that in elementaryschool, because we're just
beginning to learn at this timeas students but what part of
your day do you think would bebest for a student?
That one, two, three, right,that we academically don't know
(31:27):
that they're going to be able toconnect with it at all.
However, we want to see themconnect with students their age
and get some of that social time.
How does that work for you?
When is best for you?
Instead of of we often just tryto like, force people into
places, and that's not.
I'm not saying just theadaptive teachers, I'm saying
all teachers, because we have somuch to deal with.
(31:49):
It's one of those.
Well, here, just try it, tellme how it goes right.
And then, from a teacher orfrom a parent standpoint, if you
have a student that is in anadaptive classroom and is
self-contained and you want tosee your kid get an opportunity,
go ahead and start talking toyour teacher.
Give it a shot, because you'renever going to know unless you
(32:12):
try.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
So we've been talking for a little bit now, and I
think it's about time to wrap itup.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Do you have any last-minute words of wisdom that
you would like to share withour listener?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I think, just following up what you talked
about, the parents you know thatshare these concerns with your
teachers your child's teacherand or these desires for your
child's teacher and askquestions and if there's
(32:51):
something that is important toyou, then do everything you can
do to ensure that you'veexplored every option,
everything you can do to ensurethat you've explored every
option?
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, we got to be willing to.
You know, leave our toes athome.
Yes, don't worry about themgetting stepped on and remember
that it is the kid right, thestudent.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
And it's a team.
It's not the school versus theparent Right and parents.
If you've been led to believethat whatever the school
proposes or whatever the schoolthinks is final say, then I
apologize, because that's notthe case.
Your voice matters, youropinion matters, you know you're
(33:37):
also.
You are one of the experts onyour child absolutely so we'll
wrap up with this.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
This entire time I've had the like that last scene of
rocky four playing in my head,after he just gets done beating
the russian, and they hand rockybalboa the microphone and he
says, if I can change and youcan change, everybody can change
(34:06):
.
And then you know like all theRussians are chaining his name
because that's what would happen.
That's exactly what wouldhappen.
So, anyway, until next timeagain, I'm Jared with my wife,
laura, and we'll see you later.
Take care.
at the time of this recording.
We've been in this house fordays at least the sun's out
right now yeah, it's been coldlike silly cold.
So, for those that do not know,we reside in southeast georgia
and you know, typically when Itell people that we live in
Georgia, their response is oh,near Atlanta, no, no, no, no, we
(00:29):
live closer to Jacksonville,florida, and so we're right.
I think we're about like maybeseven miles or so from the
border, so we are not used tosuper cold.
Like we get a week of winter,it seems like every year, where
we have to pull out the bigjackets and cover our hands and
(00:51):
all of that.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's usually not even until February.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Right, and so what we've had in the past couple
days is, in some areas close tous, there's been snow.
I've got friends that haveposted pictures of beaches
covered in snow.
I've got friends that have, youknow, posted pictures of
beaches covered in snow.
Now we didn't get snow as muchas we got ice everywhere, and I
haven't lived up north in a verylong time, and so I am
(01:17):
incredibly thin skinned.
My blood is.
Is is pretty.
Uh, what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Thin.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Thin, it's watery even, and so, yeah, so we're
kind of hiding out in the houseand figured, hey, this is a good
time to put together aconversation about inclusion Now
, we've talked about inclusionbefore a handful of episodes
back Now, we've talked aboutinclusion before a handful of
(02:01):
episodes back.
But what we want to do today iswe want to approach inclusion
from the standpoint of a parent,from the standpoint of a
teacher, and kind, probably areally good idea to provide a
definition on what inclusion is.
Because what I've learned isthat as a society we have become
okay with minimizingdefinitions, okay with allowing
(02:27):
it, and when I say allowing Idon't mean like controlling, but
kind of assuming that when wego into conversations that
everybody uses the samedefinitions as we do.
And here's a quick thing aboutthe American language.
I was in a.
I had a class, golly, years agoin seminary when I had an
instructor talk to me about itwas one of the Greek classes.
So Greek is for those of youthat have done it, and get it
(02:52):
good on you.
It was a struggle for me.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I think there's a reason, there's a term that says
yeah, it's just, it's Greek tome.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah.
So this instructor was talkingabout context right, and reading
things in context and allowingcontext to build what it is that
build the perspective that youhave, build the foundation for
your conversation.
And he told us a story aboutmeeting somebody that worked for
(03:18):
Merriam-Webster's dictionary.
And my instructor said to thisfriend of his that must be
really cool having a job thatdictates how the entire country
defines words.
He said you'd be surprised thatit actually works the other way
(03:38):
, that usage of the word overtime and that usage of the word
over time shapes the definition.
And so what he was saying isthat as the years go on and
people use words, it will beginto change its definition over
(03:59):
time and be something completelydifferent than it was 20 years
ago Now at a very likesurface-level conversation.
You know, when we were growingup, there were certain words
that you know that we used askids, that adults looked at us
and thought that's crazy, like,that doesn't even make sense.
And now, even today, we hearkids use words and we find
(04:22):
ourselves trying to figure outwhere in the world did that even
come from?
Right, right, no, cap, what,like why would anybody say that?
But then, like we said things,rad and Bad man.
That's bad.
That's bad.
What do you?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
mean it's bad.
No, it's not bad, it's good.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
No, no, no, mom bad.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
That's bad.
What do you mean?
It's bad?
No, it's not bad, it's good.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
No, no, no, mom Right , they're so old, they just deal
with the times.
But anyway, I said all of thatto say for this conversation to
go forward, it's probably areally good idea to lay out our
definition of what inclusion is,is, and so that way, if anybody
were to listen to this you know, anybody other than my mom and
(05:08):
had some questions or commentsor something they want to add to
the conversation we're movingfrom, we're starting on that
same platform of the definitionof inclusion.
So, laura, yes, can you defineinclusion for this conversation?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yes, so according to the National Education
Association, or the NEA, theIndividuals with Disabilities
Education Act, or IDEA, definesinclusion in special education
as providing students withdisabilities access to general
education classrooms andcurriculum.
It's also known as a leastrestrictive environment, or LRE
(05:54):
so, and it aims to createlearning environments where all
students can learn together.
And, as we've talked before,these students with disabilities
, we're talking about studentsthat have an IEP.
We say it all the time the I isindividualized, so not only is
their plan individualized, soshould their inclusion be
(06:19):
individualized and not just be ablanket.
Either they're all in or allout.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, I'm glad that you added that second part,
because if we would have stoppedthat access, that could cause
someone to believe thatinclusion is simply having a
child with a disability put in aclassroom with kids that may
not have a disability or maybeyou know their development is
(06:46):
typical, but we know thatinclusion is so much more than
just putting a kid in aclassroom, right, right.
So if it was just access, wellthen shove them all in, and I've
heard stories of districts thatdo that, that there are schools
that would take profoundlydisabled kids and put them in
(07:08):
the same classroom with kidsthat are receiving more support
for, say, a learning disability,and those that are typically
developing.
So you have all these kids justcrammed into one room with six,
seven adults, the idea beingthat, well, you have all these.
(07:28):
The number game is very popular, and so the thought is well, if
there's all these adults in aclassroom, if we've got nine
adults in a classroom with 30kids, I mean that's a three to
one, that's not bad, and that'swhat happens when we play the
number game.
Now, anybody that has ever beenin a classroom before knows that
(07:49):
the situation that I justdescribed is scary.
It'd drive anybody crazylistening to soft, sweet music
in my ears while rocking backand forth?
That would be horrible for me.
(08:10):
But again, inclusion is so muchmore than just access.
It's so much more than justbeing put into a classroom.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
You have to provide those students with
accommodations and the supportneeded for them to be successful
in that setting, whether thatmeans successful academically,
successful socially,functionally they need to be.
These supports andaccommodations need to be
(08:40):
provided so they can have be assuccessful as possible when
they're in that setting.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
We've had some pretty interesting experiences.
We've been able to worktogether, and this is our fifth
year working together, side byside, and prior to that I had
three years in the co-teachsetting and I know that you, as
a para, you worked in a specialeducation classroom.
I know that you worked in thegeneral education classroom at a
(09:12):
kindergarten level, where yousaw students of all different
abilities even at that age, atthat early age of five.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And so and so there's been, we've had a good bit of
interaction with what aresupposed to be inclusion
opportunities and what we foundis like what you just said, is
that that individualized part ishuge.
Like I can think of one studentthat I that I worked with and
(09:46):
they were.
I mean they struggled in thegeneral education classroom and
they were in the classroombecause the parent just nope, I
just want them in there, justnope, I just want them in there.
Unfortunately, this studentcouldn't read, couldn't write.
(10:24):
That classroom with the studentfor 45 to 50 minutes for math
and 45 to 50 minutes for Englishlanguage arts.
This student was not set up forsuccess.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And you're not talking about a kindergarten
student.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I am not talking about a kindergarten student.
Yeah, this isn't an early gradelike a kindergarten first grade
.
This was an older student andso that's sad, because while
this particular student wasengaging socially, they were
(11:02):
able to take advantage of that.
The extent of their educationwas next to nothing.
And unfortunately we'll seethings like that happen and
students just be kind of pushedalong and really not engaging
academically where they need to.
(11:23):
And so then there's one picture.
Then we can flip that too to atime when I had another student.
That was was when I first gotthe student was pretty
aggressive, um, handled, handledredirection and direction not
(11:52):
very well at all, but thestudent had a pretty high
aptitude, like they could learn,they were smart, and what kept
them from spending time in thegeneral education classroom was
this behavior.
And so you know I do everythingI can to help the student get
(12:17):
out into that general setting,because in the settings that we
work in currently settings thatwe work in currently it is very
hard for the students to get aneducation that helps them to
progress academically, right?
So if we were to talk about,like our current setting, having
(12:39):
the self-contained adaptive,adaptive curriculum inside that
group, it is incredibly hard tocover the full spectrum of
education, right?
Right, it's hard to have agroup of seven, eight, nine
students whose aptitude is, Imean, they're just, you couldn't
(13:07):
get any further and try toallow them access to the
standards and academically grow.
It's very, very difficult.
And so there's kind of this, Idon't know this kind of like
issue of what do we do withthese students.
(13:30):
And so go ahead and answer thatquestion, laura, what do we do
with the students?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I just want to put a little bit, a little
clarification there too.
And you're talking about, youknow, the students and their
ability to learn.
Of course, all our students areable to learn, and when you
were talking about the students'ability to learn, that they
could learn, you meant learningat a grade level, right Learning
(13:59):
at their grade level, versus atan adapted level.
I'm not saying they can't learnat all, you're not saying that
the rest of our students can'tlearn.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The ones in our class ?
Well, no, they don't need to bein here because they can't
learn.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Just wanted to clarify that little bit right
there and then to answer thatquestion.
What do we do?
Is what we like to say?
We push them out, we try to ourgoal and we say this in kind of
(14:36):
a kidding, not kidding our goalis to get our kids out of our
rooms.
As much as we love our kids, ifwe can get them out of our
rooms as much as possible and inthat inclusion setting, then
that means the world to us.
However, we also have foundthat sometimes some of our
(15:00):
students that are higherachieving achieving and more
functional in our rooms it canbe deceptive because we have
them in our rooms and oh well,you know, maybe the student, and
then they get into thatclassroom and it's difficult for
(15:20):
them to keep up.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
So it's you know it's .
It's an affirmation that theyare functioning best in our
class, academically and sociallyright, so that forcing them
into that setting is not goingto help both sides of that the
social, emotional and theacademic.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Right, right, but we're also firm believers in
trying it as as much as we canand as early as we can.
That we've said just with abouteverything in this industry.
This field is that earlyintervention, early detection,
early intervention, interventionand why not try, when you have
(16:11):
these little ones inkindergarten, and try to have
them in kindergarten as much aspossible, because, one, they're
kindergarten and they're goingto be immature, they're going to
develop it in different ways,because you have some kids that
go into kindergarten and turnfive in a matter of weeks and
then you have other ones thatare in kindergarten and aren't
(16:33):
going to turn five until lateron in the school year.
So you know, so those are kindof our experiences that we just
push it out, and we've had great, great teachers that have, um,
some of them seasoned, said yes,give, give, give me them all,
just give them all to me, andthen other ones that are like,
(16:55):
okay, so how am I supposed to dothis with these students and
this, this student and, um, youknow, and so that all the
teachers' experiences aredifferent.
We also have teachers that arewilling.
However, their preparationcourses don't necessarily teach
them extensively on how to teachstudents with disabilities.
(17:19):
They may have a course or twoon how to help the lower
achieving students in theirclassroom with disabilities not
necessarily students that havemore challenging, more
(17:41):
challenges learning than theirtypical developing peers.
So our experience has kind ofbeen all over with inclusion.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So if our goal is to see our students progress
academically and socially,emotionally, to the fullest
extent right, we want to seethem become the best all-around
individual that they can, how dowe make that happen?
And I think that you reallymade a point in what you were
(18:17):
just saying about the importanceof conversation, right.
So we've had, we've worked withdifferent teachers that, like
you said, I know what I want todo with them, I know how I'll
include them, I know theyalready have that, that
perspective, knowledge right.
(18:38):
But I think equally as importantis to have the teacher that
says I don't, I don't knowexactly what to do, I don't know
what to do with this student, Idon't know what the best
approach would be.
And that's hard to do.
That's hard to do as adults,that's hard to do as teachers is
(18:59):
to say, especially if we'vebeen doing it for a while, to
say I don't know.
And so I think that it has tostart a conversation If we're
going to be successful inserving the whole child, which
is what our goal should be.
Now, if you're a teacher andyour whole thing is I just want
(19:20):
to have a schedule that matchesmy kids and not have to work in
the summer.
Go do something else, like forreal.
Just go do something elsebecause you're not doing
yourself any good, you're notdoing the kids any good.
Just find something else to do.
But I believe that I don't knowif I've met a teacher Let me
think about this I don't thinkI've met a teacher that gave me
(19:45):
the impression they don't careabout the kids.
So if they're out there,they're few and far between
Right.
And so if we can tie to thatgoal of helping the child be
successful, I think step one isconversations, again being
willing to say I don't know whatto do, and to collaborate with
each other to talk about ways tobest serve these kids.
(20:06):
But what are some other thingsthat need to happen for us to be
successful?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, like I said, this conversation, that
collaboration is key Becausewe've had students that we share
with the gen ed teachers andthen they also possibly are in
the classroom when the co-labteacher comes in and serves.
So then the co-lab teacher hasquestions and, look, I mean
(20:33):
we've worked with some greatco-lab teachers that are willing
to take on the responsibilityof working with students even
though they're not technicallytheir responsibility.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Not necessarily on their caseload that love the
students and want though they'renot technically their
responsibility Right.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Not necessarily on their caseload, that love the
students and want to see thembenefit and like, hey, if you
can help them and I can helpthem and we all can help them.
And so the hard part there isthat collaboration time, because
okay, well, this teacher has.
Well, we had one teacher try toschedule a meeting and say,
(21:07):
okay, can we talk first thing inthe morning?
And it's like, okay, well, theyget here at this time, but then
this one they have this amountof time in the morning and then
you know, we start receivingchildren earlier than this one,
and so it's like we can give youfive minutes or we can catch
(21:29):
each other in the hallway maybe.
So that's one of the things, atleast at a school level, that
those teachers need to beprovided with some time to talk.
And then the parents need to beincluded as well.
And you know you've said beforethat we're not assuming that
(21:49):
these parents don't know orunderstand.
You know what is offered and weknow that we have parents that
you know research and look andsay, no, this is what I want for
my children or my child.
But you know, parents need tobe involved in those
conversations and I thinkparents need to be aware that
(22:11):
their voice is important in this.
I recently had parents tell meso well, you know you're the
teacher, so whatever you thinkis best we should do, and I told
absolutely not.
No, that's not how it shouldwork, because you're their
parent and your desires areimportant, and parents need to
(22:36):
know that if you want a certainsetting for your child, then
these things should be done toaccommodate that to a I don't
know what word I'm looking forthere rational level.
(22:57):
I guess you would say You'regoing to have team members that
disagree, but I think in the endwhat needs to be looked at is
what is in the best interest ofthe student.
Pulling them out just to pullthem out does them no good.
Push them in just to push themin sometimes is more harmful.
(23:17):
But providing it goes back toproviding support support to the
teacher, support to the student, support to the support staff
that might be working with them.
That's one of those things thatneed to happen, for those are
(23:39):
some of the things that need tohappen for inclusion to be
successful.
As far as also training hisgeneral education, teachers
aren't often equipped how toinstruct students with
disabilities.
Paraprofessionals aren't always, don't always, receive training
(24:04):
in how to support students withdisabilities, how to modify
some of their work.
We're fortunate to have afantastic staff for some of our
children that go into thegeneral education classes and
that can say, okay, so they'reworking on this.
(24:25):
And I was thinking that maybesomething like this do we have
anything that I can take with meso they can still be working,
but not necessarily this level.
And, however, all support staffhaven't received that kind of
training or instruction or havethat knowledge.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I know, as human beings, it's not uncommon to not
be able to see past what you'rein the middle of at the time,
right, and so it's easy for ateacher to, and it makes sense
to be focused on what ishappening between these hours at
(25:06):
school, right?
So this is what I see from thestudent at this time and not
consider another perspectiveoutside.
I'm not saying you won't listento another perspective or
anything like that, but thethought doesn't often even cross
the mind, because this is whatI'm dealing with right in front
(25:28):
of me, and I know that we justrecently realized that.
You know, we never askedparents like where do you, where
do you see your child going?
What does it look like to youbased on your interactions with
your child, right?
What do you see for middleschool, high school, you know,
post-secondary?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
What is it that, based on your experience, based
on your time with your studentor your child, what do you see?
Because everything that we talkabout is going to be, from what
we experience in these walls,our job.
We don't work in other settings.
We're not like the ABAtherapist or the occupational
(26:11):
therapist or the speech andlanguage pathologist, who often
work outside of the schoolsystem as well.
We just see them inside of ourwalls, and so it's important to
be able to take those twopictures and put them together,
because without doing that,we're trying to solve a puzzle
(26:32):
without the box.
All right, we've got pieces.
I've got my puzzle piece inschool, parent, you've got your
puzzle piece at home and withfamily, and when you go to the
grocery store and when you go toWalmart and when you go to
(26:52):
church and whatever it is thatyour life is built around.
But we have to be able to takethose things and put them
together, and that doesn'thappen unless we have
conversations teachers havingconversations with teachers, gen
Ed SPED, parents havingconversations with Gen Ed SPED
(27:13):
and really looking for whatneeds to happen to help get that
student to where where,collectively, we believe that
they can go or should go rightum yeah, dropping stuff, it's
all right.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I, yeah, I agree 100 that the first step in
successful inclusion iscommunication, and whether it be
emails or set up a meeting, and, as we all know that our
schedules are different, ourtimes that we're serving kids
(27:52):
are different and our planningis usually different, and so
just trying to find some commontime to meet and discuss these
things are important, and so Imean there's some things that
we'll go.
You know, briefly, some tips,just to get started.
(28:15):
If you go back to work nextweek and you're a teacher and,
hey, guess what, the studentscome into your class.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Because it could happen.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Right, you know what do you do.
Or a parent, you know youdecide that, okay, hey, I want
my child to be included more.
What do you do?
So a couple of things as far asteachers, what they can do to
ensure that the students thatare coming into their class have
(28:47):
a space for them and I knowspace is precious in these
classrooms.
There's a lot of things thatneed to be in classrooms, but if
you can give these students aplace that's theirs you don't
understand how huge that is,whether that's a desk, or if you
have tables you give them aseat at the table with their
(29:12):
peers instead of okay, they cansit at this back table, back
here, because that's really notinclusion and invite them to
your parties, whether it beclass parties.
Ensure that the students cominginto your classroom get invited
to field trips and we've gotsome teachers that do this
(29:35):
already.
We're fortunate to have themand when they're on these field
trips, let them, you know, makesure that they're not.
Let them make sure that they'reincluded in the groupings and
included in the pictures and thelunches, because they're coming
into your classroom, they'repart of your class and help them
(29:58):
.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Help them feel like that they're part of your class
and help them feel like that.
So another thing that I wouldwant to add to that, as far as a
teacher goes that has theinclusion setting and we've
already talked about askingquestions, but I would even go
as far as to you know, let mepush pause on that let's talk
(30:21):
about just for a second, theinclusion teacher.
Like us, we should be havingconversations with those general
education and co-teach teachersas well Because, like you said
earlier, you know we see ourkids operating in our setting
(30:43):
and there's oftentimes thingsthat we see that would help us
or cause us to believe that theymight work, might be able to
get some more inclusion time,and so for those things to
happen, there's got to be thatconnection with the excuse me
the adaptive teacher and theinclusion teacher to talk about
those things.
(31:03):
What do you think the best wayto try this out would be and we
see more of that in elementaryschool, because we're just
beginning to learn at this timeas students but what part of
your day do you think would bebest for a student?
That one, two, three, right,that we academically don't know
(31:27):
that they're going to be able toconnect with it at all.
However, we want to see themconnect with students their age
and get some of that social time.
How does that work for you?
When is best for you?
Instead of of we often just tryto like, force people into
places, and that's not.
I'm not saying just theadaptive teachers, I'm saying
all teachers, because we have somuch to deal with.
(31:49):
It's one of those.
Well, here, just try it, tellme how it goes right.
And then, from a teacher orfrom a parent standpoint, if you
have a student that is in anadaptive classroom and is
self-contained and you want tosee your kid get an opportunity,
go ahead and start talking toyour teacher.
Give it a shot, because you'renever going to know unless you
(32:12):
try.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
So we've been talking for a little bit now, and I
think it's about time to wrap itup.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Do you have any last-minute words of wisdom that
you would like to share withour listener?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I think, just following up what you talked
about, the parents you know thatshare these concerns with your
teachers your child's teacherand or these desires for your
child's teacher and askquestions and if there's
(32:51):
something that is important toyou, then do everything you can
do to ensure that you'veexplored every option,
everything you can do to ensurethat you've explored every
option?
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, we got to be willing to.
You know, leave our toes athome.
Yes, don't worry about themgetting stepped on and remember
that it is the kid right, thestudent.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
And it's a team.
It's not the school versus theparent Right and parents.
If you've been led to believethat whatever the school
proposes or whatever the schoolthinks is final say, then I
apologize, because that's notthe case.
Your voice matters, youropinion matters, you know you're
(33:37):
also.
You are one of the experts onyour child absolutely so we'll
wrap up with this.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
This entire time I've had the like that last scene of
rocky four playing in my head,after he just gets done beating
the russian, and they hand rockybalboa the microphone and he
says, if I can change and youcan change, everybody can change
(34:06):
.
And then you know like all theRussians are chaining his name
because that's what would happen.
That's exactly what wouldhappen.
So, anyway, until next timeagain, I'm Jared with my wife,
laura, and we'll see you later.
Take care.
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