LLP #123: Mastering Your Firearm: How Much Practice Do You Really Need?

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What makes a truly proficient shooter? The answer might surprise you. It's not about how many rounds you send downrange or how tight your groups are on paper—it's about practical application and preparedness when it matters most.

Drawing from real-world experiences, including a shocking story about a police officer who survived an ambush because of his daily practice routine, we explore the critical difference between shooting and training. While anyone can blast through hundreds of rounds on the weekend, true proficiency comes from deliberate practice of specific skills: presentation from concealment, transitioning between targets, and developing the muscle memory that could save your life.

We examine the fascinating psychology behind training scars, like the FBI's coffee can story where agents developed deadly habits during practice that nearly got them killed in actual gunfights. This stark reminder shows how seemingly innocent range practices can create disastrous consequences when bullets start flying for real.

The conversation takes a practical turn as we discuss the merits of different firearms for defensive use. While rifles might be the go-to choice for many, we challenge some misconceptions about shotguns, revealing how modern loads like Federal Flight Control buckshot offer remarkable accuracy at distance. Each platform—pistol, rifle, and shotgun—has specific applications where it shines, and understanding these nuances is crucial for anyone serious about self-defense.

Perhaps most importantly, we emphasize that effective training doesn't always require expensive range sessions. The "unsexy" fundamentals—drawing from concealment, weapon manipulation, presentation drills—can often be practiced at home without firing a single round. These fundamental skills might not make for exciting Instagram content, but they're what separate those who merely shoot well from those who can protect themselves when their life depends on it.

Ready to transform your approach to firearms training? Tune in now and discover why mindset and proper practice matter more than fancy gear or endless ammunition.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back everybody.
This is Eric and Matt and thisis Life, liberty and the Pursuit
, your beacon of freedom and theAmerican way of life.
Tune in every Monday for a newepisode as we dive into the
world of liberty and what makesour country great.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome back everybody.
This is Eric and Matt here withLLP.
I hope everybody has had agreat week.
Llp is your home for all thingssane in a world gone completely
mad.
What's up?

Speaker 3 (00:25):
dude, nothing much and sometimes crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Oh gosh, you know it.
So today's show y'all, we'regoing to talk a little bit about
how much training, how muchshooting, do you need to do to
stay proficient?
There's a lot of differentthought processes that go into
this, everything from dry firepractice to laser training
devices to actual range time.

(00:49):
You know people.
Sometimes it takes them a whileto gather a decent amount of
proficiency with a given firearm.
It takes a lot of training.
Sometimes it takes people lesstraining.
How much remedial and, you know, ongoing training do you need
to keep your skills once you getthem?
We'll talk about all thesethings and, of course, today's
show we're going to get into alot of different subjects, but

(01:10):
that's the main gist of today'sshow is we're going to be
talking about shootingproficiency a little bit.
Maybe some things you can do toimprove your shooting for a lot
less money which is always agood thing Like little tiny tips
you can add in that willdefinitely save you money in the
long term.
Ammo costs a lot of money.
I mean, I get it, butespecially now with all this

(01:30):
inflation and all the crazystuff going on in the world, you
know a lot of people arechoosing to kind of hold on to
more of their ammo and they'regenerally not training as much.
But there are a lot of peopledoing training classes and so
we'll talk a little bit about.
You know formal instruction,you know taking instruction, so
all of those things are veryuseful tools in the arsenal and
we will get into that in today'sshow.

(01:51):
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Speaker 3 (03:08):
Holy cow, my Patriot, supply coming through with the
deals.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
They are playing hardball.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Last week it was 60% off of certain things and this
week it's you know, great dealson solar panels.
Come on, man.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Some of the deals that those guys put up, like you
kind of have to jump on them.
I hate to say like I'm nottrying to be Billy Mays here,
but some of those deals, evenwhen I read them I'm like what,
yeah, no.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
I mean, it's like me.
Like I said, I use the actualfood.
I have buckets of it and it's agood idea.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, and I do have a full review food, so if you
want to get an idea of some ofthe offerings, check it out.
It's over on the channel.
So, talking about training, youknow it's just so crazy.
Before we get into the subjectof training, though, so in last
week's show, we showed off apicture that I took in town of
this Vietnam veterans rig.
You know this crazy car he wasin.
You know this crazy car he wasin.
You know this cool old schoolOldsmobile with all the bumper

(04:07):
stickers?
Now, this one isn't as cool,but I will tell you this is
crazy.
I took this picture in town,probably a few hundred yards
away from where I took thepicture of this car, so keep
that in mind.
Okay, okay, all right.
The caption for the Twitterpost is Jane Fonda is pure evil,
all right.
And this is another Vietnamveteran that lives in my town,

(04:28):
and Matt has not seen thispicture yet, so he's going to
react in real time.
Now this one's not quite asinteresting maybe as the first
one that we showed last week,but I thought it'd be cool to
show.
All right, so let's have a lookat this.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Ooh, that one's spicy look at this.
Oh, that one's spicy.
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, and I'll,I'll read it.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's like it says vietnam vet,and damn proud of it, I'll
forgive jane fonda when the jewsforgive hitler.
That's spicy, that's a tallaccusation.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
right there it is.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
But and I'm not saying anything, you know
outlandish here, but she didsome pretty messed up stuff to
the vets that were over there,especially the POWs.
She did.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah, she was supposed to take those letters
back for them, and she disposedof them.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
She destroyed them.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
And she didn't just, she wasn't anti-war, she
actively applauded the effortsof the communists when they hurt
and killed us service members.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
I mean that's treason you know what I mean.
She went to a very treasonousact, yeah, like she went to,
like the hanoi hotel or wherever, where they were actively
torturing yeah, the hanoi hiltonyeah, and you know the.
The guy was like please, canyou give this message to my
family?
And she was like no.
I was like please, can you givethis message to my family?

Speaker 2 (05:45):
and she was like no well, no, she said she would.
And then she said yeah, I'lltake it.
And then she destroyed.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Well, that was the letters.
So she had the letters.
But this was that they askedher like just to give it to them
, like verbally, like hey, ifyou're not going to give them
the letter, like just pass thismessage to to my family.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
And she's like no, I'm like oh, my god I'm telling
you there are so many vietnamvets that are gonna like if well
, if they're still around by thetime she's gone, they're
probably gonna take a good pisson her grave like they hate jane
fonda and and that's one ofthose things that goes around in
the in the vietnam veterancommunity like it's a just
universal hatred for jane fonda.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
There was, like so many, like cadences, like
marching cad cadences, goingagainst that.
It was hilarious man.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
It's true.
It's true.
I mean, when Jane Fonda makesit into your military march,
that's a sign she's not liked atall in that community.
Anyway, I thought that was aninteresting picture, and when
I'm in town sometimes I'll justtake like random pictures, and
so each week I'll try to share afunny story from the week, or a
picture or something.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
I always like to try to you know kind of add that I
like this segment.
I'm gonna start trying to snappictures if I see him out too.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
But yeah, yeah, if you see something crazy, take a
picture and we'll share it.
I took a picture at the grocerystore the other day of a dog
sitting in the in the driver'sseat of a truck and the way he
was sitting up he almost hadlike his hands up like he was
driving the truck.
You know, you know, that'sinnocent.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Little pause on.
Yeah, it's innocent and it'sdumb.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
But it's like sometimes you, you just, I don't
know you feel compelled to takea picture.
And in that moment I feltcompelled to take a picture of
that bumper sticker because Ithought it was cool yep you know
, and and anytime, because youknow the vet that's driving is
vietnam vet.
so you know, and a lot of thoseguys are getting older now, so
it's just always interesting tosee what their perspectives are.
I would love to have like oneof those guys maybe a few of

(07:31):
them in to interview and talkabout some of their experiences.
You know, I think that'd be apretty wild thing to hear.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
You know it's also like super rare to find.
Now getting more rare to findis the Korean war vets from like
when you started hearingstories of like the chosen
reservoir, like like man, if youcould just sit down with one of
those guys and just hear thestories that they have to tell
those marines had it rough.
Oh yeah, man, those guys gotreally hemmed up like frozen,

(07:58):
like golly talk about.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
You know one of my old guitar teachers, his grandpa
, was in that battle in theChosin Reservoir.
Yeah, and oddly enough hispicture was also on the cover of
Time Magazine.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Really that's awesome .

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yep, there's a very famous photo of this extremely
exhausted Marine from TimeMagazine.
Marine from time magazine andhe's like sitting there and he's
got a thousand yards therebeard you know, his beard grew,
you know a whole lot and he justlooks like you can tell he's
been through absolute hell,right.
And that picture is my guitarteachers, my old guitar teachers

(08:39):
, grandpa man, that's crazy soyeah, I remember when I still
worked at the music store.
This has been a long time ago,this has been a long time ago,
this has been like over 20 yearsago.
I remember he came in I waslike, yeah, I want to tell you
my grandpa passed away and allthat.
And he showed me some of theparts from the memorial and
everything and the eulogy andeverything.
And I was like, wait a minute,I've seen that picture before.

(08:59):
He's like, yeah, he was on thecover of Time Magazine.
Oh, that's your grandpa, likewow, small world, you know.
So it's just so strange, likewhen you think about the um, the
brotherhood of, of military,and you know what people will go
through for each other and andyou know you're you're always
constantly reminded of thosethings and I think it's it's
important to keep the spirit ofthat stuff alive.

(09:21):
And you know it's important tohear the stories that these guys
have to tell, cause a lot ofthem don't want to talk about it
.
They don't want to talk aboutsome of the things they've been
through, whether it's it's it'sthrough too traumatic for them.
You know, maybe they sawsomeone close to them die, which
of course, is not easy, ormaybe they participated in some
extreme violence and they go,and they go, wow, I don't want

(09:41):
to talk about that.
The real ones don't talk aboutit.
That's how you know it's somedramatically crazy stuff that
happened to them.
When they don't want to talkabout it, that's how you know
what they went through is trulymessed up.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Man, there was a great YouTube channel and I
forget what it's called, butit's a nonprofit war historical
YouTube channel and all they dois interview vets like World War
II vets, korean War vets,vietnam vets.
Eventually they're probablygoing to get into the GWAP when
we start getting up into thatage too.
They do such a great service ofjust letting them explain the

(10:20):
story in its detail.
And when you get into it andthey start talking the chosen
reservoir, they're telling likehey, we were throwing hand
grenades for hours, just likethrowing nothing you run out of
hand.
Yeah they're like my arm.
I couldn't literally I couldn'tpick anything up.
I'm just throwing grenades atthese people, boom, boom.
They're jumping on quad 50s andjust they just run the barrels

(10:42):
out like he's, like they'remelting barrels on quad 50s and
the people are still coming.
Could you imagine that man?
Could you imagine shooting at ahill with a quad 50 and when
the barrel of people, yeah, andwhen it's a wave of people.
The barrels melt, the peoplejust keep coming right.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Oh my gosh, yeah but it's not a hill, it's like a, a
wave of people yeah, you canjust see uniform wool moving
down.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
You know wool melting down, climbing over each other
whoa, I'm just coming over, socrazy, I mean so it's
interesting.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Before we get into today's show, I'll kind of talk
a little bit.
It's interesting that northkorea has also been sending
troops to Ukraine.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Not to get off on the I don't want to get off on this
Like.
This is not the tangent that Iwant to want to discuss, but I
just want to mention briefly howit's been kind of telling, how
the somewhat limited combateffectiveness of the North
Korean troops is pretty telling.
You know, they've experiencedsome pretty heavy losses.
Now, to be fair, the Russiancommanders you know the Russians

(11:48):
are ultimately in command ofthese men and what do you think
they're going to do?
They're not going to put themin a position that is going to,
you know, be a good position forthem.
Like they're going to use themin a very terrible way.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Cannon fodder.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
The talk is yeah, yeah, the talk is cannon fodder,
human wave tactics and thingslike these, and and there's this
one video that just keepscoming back and just freaking,
haunting the crap out of meevery time I think about it, and
it's this drone footage of, youknow, getting close to a korean
soldier.
He's a north korean soldier andthe guy's absolutely terrified,

(12:25):
pure terror, and it's like youcan't manufacture that, like you
can't fake that, you can't.
You know, hollywood can't showthat there.
There is not nothing on thisplanet that can come close to
seeing the way someone lookswhen, when they know they're
about to go.
And and the dude was absolutelyterrified and you could tell in
that moment like he feltabsolutely helpless, like didn't

(12:48):
know what to do, didn't knowwhat he could do, all he knew he
was there, probably forced tobe there.
They probably threatened hisfamily.
There's no telling what broughtthat guy to that point, but to
but to see what I viewessentially as an innocent man.
I mean because you know, a lotof those folks aren't there by
their own will.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Oh, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Nobody volunteers for that Right.
And so in my mind, you thinkyou know this person.
Okay, is this person innocent?
Maybe not innocent, but theyare relatively innocent in a way
, because it's like I mean, theguy's already lost, like he
knows that he can't win againstthe situation.
So it's like some of thesedrone attacks.

(13:30):
What really gets me is like youknow, you've seen some of these
guys on both the Ukrainian andRussian side.
Both They'll throw their handsup.
Hey, I surrender.
You know, like you can tell,okay, they don't want to fight,
no more, they're done, they'resurrendering, but then they
still blow them up anyway.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Oh, yeah, you'll see the release ordnance.
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
So if the operator, okay if the operator of that
drone sees that a soldier issurrendering and they drop the
bomb anyway, is that against therules of international rules?
Warfare at that point?
I mean, if a soldier is tryingto surrender and you know
they're surrendering and yourecorded it, there's footage
that shows the person.
Hey, like the female russian.
Did you see that video?

(14:10):
no, I haven't yeah, so there's arussian female soldier and
again, I'm not trying to, youknow, draw sympathy for either
side of the conflict, but stillyou see these videos and you
think, wow, this is royallyscrewed up what you just saw.
There's this Russian soldierand it's a female and the drone
kind of comes down a little bit,gets a little closer and the
lady, she's not even holding aweapon, but she's waving, she's

(14:33):
telling him no, I'm unarmed,basically, please no, don't drop
it.
Look, I'm not a threat.
I have no weapon.
Whatever, she's surrenderingand there's a flight into her
anyway.
Imagine how.
The feeling of terror when youthink, well, I'm trying to

(14:54):
surrender I'm trying to give up,but you can't give up I mean
there's no escape.
That's a very, very goodproblem yeah, it's not like a
person standing there with a gunpointed at you can talk to it's
.
You can't reason with a machine.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Think how royally terrifying that has to be.
The machine isn't autonomous,right?
So there is a person behind thescreen.
They can interpret thatsurrender.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, and they can just choose not to.
But how terrible is that thosedrone pilots have to be some
really screwed up people tothink like I mean dude that's
royally messed up and I'm justgoing to put this in perspective
.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Outside of like reaper drones, right, so you
have like reapers and all thatstuff that they they have a
designated hit.
They're like, hey, this personand they're dropping ordinance
on a building and there's goingto be people in that building
that aren't necessarily they'reinnocent, right, they're kind of
collateral damage, right, butyou're, you're hitting, trying

(15:52):
to hit that high value target,that hvt so it's at that point
it's quote acceptable losses forthat mission.
But in this, in this particularaspect, it's a drone operator
right.
That person serving isn't anhvt, they're just a regular
right, regular person right, sothat if that was a us operation

(16:15):
those people would be indicted.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
They would, they would like, just just put, call
it what it is like, that wouldget you indicted as a war crime
well, it's like when we got alzakari, you know, I think there
was some collateral damage therethey dropped a bomb on his, on
his building.
You know he was in and I and,yeah, I think a few of his other
lieutenants and people gottaken out, but I think some
people who you know maybe theyweren't innocent, but they

(16:38):
certainly were not the targetalso perished.
So it's like, you know, how doyou make sense of collateral
damage?
I mean, what if someone toldyou your wife was collateral
damage or your kid wascollateral damage?
No one wants to hear that.
No one wants to hear that theirfamily member or someone they
love is disposable, and that's areally terrible thing about

(16:59):
warfare.
Anyway, I didn't want to getoff on that track here, but I
just felt like it related towhat we were discussing.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Real quick.
Have you seen the new munitionsto reduce collateral damage?
So they took the Comp B and theTNT out of it and now it's just
big razor blades.
So it's a munition they drop.
And now it opens up and it haslike four or five just straight
razor blades.
So when this thing hits a car,it's like getting hit.

(17:28):
It looks like it's been hitwith a pizza cutter.
It just whop and just likeslices it up into like four or
five pieces.
But everything inside thatvehicle also gets sliced into
four or five pieces.
Oh my God.
So they'll throw it intobuildings and it's just like a
pizza cutter hit in the building.
The bright side is that there'sno explosion, so it's just like
you know, hitting it and thencutting up everything inside.

(17:50):
So the buildings next to it arefine.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
The bright side, boys and girls, if you're not in the
room with the razor, yeah,you're okay, but if you're the
one in the room with the razorblades, you're gonna be turned
into salami yeah, wow.
Well, that's where we're at now,folks, we're yep so it doesn't
matter how much training you do,you're just going to get, you
know, a razor blade, drone yep,dropped on you, all right.
So how much shooting to stayproficient?

(18:12):
Let's get to the uh, thequestion at hand and look, I
want to mention to you guys realquick, before we uh kind of get
off on this here is that, uh,we do put um chapters down in
the description box below.
So if you don't want to hear us, you know, ramble for 15 or 20
minutes in each show before andyou just want to get straight to
the question, we usually have alink that are a little

(18:34):
timestamp that shoots youstraight to the getting to the,
to the task at hand.
So if you want to, you canalways click ahead if you, if
you don't want to hear us ramblea little bit, or feel free to
listen to us ramble or feel freeto listen to us ramble, and we
can do that too, y'all.
So how much shooting to stayproficient?
And I think this is somethingthat people tend to have maybe a

(18:55):
misconception about.
There are people that maybethey go out and they do a lot of
shooting.
I used to be in this categoryquite a bit.
I used to go out and shoot five600 rounds on nine millimeter
every weekend, right.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
A lot of shooting.
That's a lot Right.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
That was a lot of shooting, but was I actually
training?
Was I actually shooting in away that that made me more
proficient?
So it's not necessarily howmany rounds you log down range.
Anyone can go out and blast20,000 rounds a nine millimeter
in a year.
What are you doing with thoseshots?
Are you running around?
Are you drawing?

(19:34):
Are you timing yourself?
Are you working on the speed ofyour draw?
Are you working on the speed ofyour transition from target to
target?
Are you trying to shoot fastersplits?
So there's all these sort oftechnicalities that we can look
at that.
Can you know?
Let's just say arbitrarily sayhow good a shooter is.
Okay, this person can shootfast splits.

(19:54):
This person can draw fast.
This person can move around andshoot while moving.
You can do X, y, z, et cetera,et cetera.
This person can take apart aGlock blindfolded and put it
back together.
I mean, there's all thesethings that we can say oh wow,
this person is amazing athandling guns.
Because of all of these, youknow very measurable things.
That you know, of course,because human beings are

(20:15):
scientific in nature first andforemost than they are anything
else.
We record, we have data.
We really like to get into theweeds on.
You know how to make a processmore efficient, and that's
really what fast and fancycompetitive type of shooting is
is how do I make myself fasterand more proficient than the

(20:36):
other shooters around me?
Right, one shooter may movefaster than me, but he may draw
slower than me.
One shooter may draw reallyfast, but he runs fast but he
shoots slow.
So all of these things inconcert make you the shooter
that you are.
The people that win competitionsare going to be the people who
can do everything really well.
They shoot fast splits, theydraw fast, they change mags fast

(20:58):
, they run fast, they transitionfast.
They know the course.
Well, they've, you know, doneeverything.
And I'm talking about moreabout competitive shooting.
Now, what about?
You know we're talking abouthow much shooting to stay
proficient.
Now, what distances do mosthandgun battles happen when it
comes okay, you're going to drawa pistol in a defensive
situation and get in.

(21:18):
Let's just say what we wouldcall a gunfight or a defensive
shooting, where you're actuallygoing to draw your pistol in the
name of defense.
What distance is the?
Is the assailant statisticallygoing to be away from you?

Speaker 3 (21:31):
I believe it is 21 feet.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
There's a 21 foot seven yards seven to ten yards
ten ten tens long yep sevens,you know maybe even 15, or you
know 10 or 15 feet, and maybefrom me to you maybe five feet.
The point is, most people aregoing to be close, right, so
they're going to be close and Ithink that for my purposes, what

(21:57):
I look at pistol training andwhen we talk about handguns
right now we're going to talkabout rifles and other stuff a
little bit as the show goes on,but we're talking about handgun
proficiency and it's funny andChad and I used to sort of argue
about this a little not argue,but we would just have our
differences of opinion.
You know he liked to shootlittle tiny groups with handguns
and you know sure it's great tobe able to shoot in nice tiny

(22:19):
group and to see how accuratethe gun can be at longer range
range where I've always beenmore of an instinctual type of
shooter.
I may not shoot the tiniestgroups, but I tend to just kind
of I'm a point shooter, I liketo just sort of point and shoot
and over time, like you, youkind of begin to treat the sort
of muscle memory of the of thething is like like wow, I've

(22:39):
actually learned how to shootaccurately by pointing and
shooting.
So instead of working only onaccuracy and you're not even
thinking about the minutia ofjust treating the gun like an
extension of your body andlooking at the target, not the
gun, yep no, I I agree soit's two different schools of
thought.
Both are not wrong, both arenot right, but both have their

(22:59):
application, depending on what aperson wants to achieve.
I mean, is a person going to dosome high level competition and
you know where you need to beable to shoot tiny groups to win
?
Well then, yeah, don't learnhow to shoot tiny groups.
Will shooting tiny groups witha pistol make you a better
killer?
No.
Will it make you a bettershooter?
No.
Will it make you a bettershooter?
Yes.
But see all of those things inconcert.

(23:20):
You know, just because you canshoot a pistol well and just
because you follow all of thecompetitive circle stuff well
and can do all of thesedifferent tasks, it still
doesn't mean you're going tohave the mindset to apply those
skills in a way that is going tomake you survive in a gunfight.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
Absolutely true and those are great points.
And I think that you brought upsomething that I want to talk
about first, which is, you know,proficiency is relative to your
result.
Like, what are you trying toachieve?
Are you trying to getproficient at USPA shooting?
That's going to be completelydifferent than like self-defense

(24:01):
quote and like survival Oneyou're starting with your gun on
your side, one you're going tobe drawing from concealment.
So how do you like?
Is shooting the actual meat andpotatoes of your training?
Not really, it should bepresenting the firearm.
Anybody can shoot the gun.
When you get it out, it's howdo you get it out Like you

(24:24):
should and I'm not saying youshould, but a big part that
people neglect is like drawingthe weapon, defeating the
garment, getting up, getting toyour presentation.
If you spend more time doingthat, the shooting aspect will
be easier.
Yeah, if you can get yourpresentation to be consistent,
then you're not going to have aproblem.
It's the part of like I'm not.

(24:46):
I've practiced shooting at the.
Let's say, you go to the gunrange and you're shooting from
the bench and you're alwayspicking your gun up from the
bench and then you're puttingout static.
Yeah, you're going to shootgreat groups.
But how are you when you haveto yank your shirt up, pull the
gun out, present it and thenshoot?
And that's the part that peopleneglect because it's not sexy,

(25:08):
that's not the sexy part oftraining.
The sexy part is getting out onthe flat range and shooting
groups and running to the nexttarget and shooting groups and
then doing your press target andshooting groups and then, you
know, doing your press check,taking your magazine out and
putting your gun back.
That's the sexy stuff.
But then when you say, hey,show me from concealment,
everything becomes super jankyand they go really slow.

(25:30):
They're like, oh, they'repulling the shirt up slow and
they're making sure they don'tshoot themselves in the leg
because they're not used to it.
So it's completely relative.
I would say that you can domost of your training at home.
You can sit there and I knowguys, I train jujitsu with a guy

(25:51):
that is an instructor for amajor firearms company.
Starts with a G, ends with theOck.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Can you give me another clue, man?

Speaker 3 (26:06):
And he's always posting his own personal reels
when he's traveling because hehas to travel to all these
different places to teach.
He's not even shooting.
Most of the time he's justdoing drills.
He's in the mirror and he'sjust doing presentation drills.
Boom, boom, boom, that's all.
He's not even shooting.
Most of the time he's justdoing drills, like he's in the
mirror and he's just doingpresentation drills.
Boom, boom, boom.
That's all he's doing.
And that translates directlywith how you're going to perform
on the range.
You get out there and you canreally maximize your time.

(26:29):
So I don't think you have toshoot that much to become to
keep your proficiency, you haveto do the unsexy stuff, the
stuff that you don't really wantto do, and it's the same thing
with jujitsu.
Man, everybody wants to go intojujitsu and just go ham and
start like rolling and sparringand going really hard.
No one wants to do the boringpart of jujitsu, which is like

(26:51):
working on one little part tobecome more efficient, because
that's boring and unsexy.
So are you training for survivalper se?
Then train with like presentingfrom concealment.
You know, that's what I believe.

(27:12):
And then also, if you train alot of USPA or like competition
shooting.
From what I've seen, it's notvery practical.
I know it's called practicalshooting, but when you see them
running the course, they'realways having to keep their gun
pointed down range.
So if they're running, and thenthey're running this way, how

(27:34):
would you do it in real life?
Right, in real life, in a reallife scenario, your gun is
always looking where you'relooking.
You're not ever going to berunning down a hallway with your
gun facing this way, right?
So at what point does it buildbad habits?
If you're?
If you're doing that, yeah.
So good point.
You have to have a good mix of,you know, practical shooting

(27:57):
presentation.
I would say actual shooting isprobably the least of of the
training.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
I mean, I think that with all of this, there are a
combination of different skillsthat come into play, and I think
they're all important, you know, I think you should be, and
really what it comes down to, Ialways say, is, like it is
weapons manipulation, it is yourability to manipulate that gun,
whether it's draw it, whetherit's point it, whether it's

(28:27):
shoot it, whether it's clear it,whether it's clean it.
Whatever you're doing, it's allabout being familiar with how
to manipulate that firearm in away that is going to, you know,
be consistent with what yourgoals are.
Whether it's training forself-defense or training for
competition, all the skills areequally important, and then, of
course, the mindset.
So I'm going to tell a coupleof stories, and I might've

(28:48):
mentioned these stories sometimein the past, but it's been a
while since I've told this one,so I want to tell it again,
because I think it's verypertinent here and it backs up
what Matt said perfectly.
A good police buddy of mine.
Now he's long retired.
Okay, been retired a long timenow we're talking back when
Atlanta PD still issued model 19revolvers okay, so this is.

(29:10):
This has been a while beforeevery shift.
Okay, he would put his uniformon and, um, you know, take his
revolver, put it in his rig andhe would do some presentations
every morning in the mirror,just like you said.
And we're talking, um, some ofyou might know who this guy is.
I'm not going to mention hisname because you know, I don't.
I don't want to put the man'sbusiness out there, but it's a

(29:32):
crazy story.
So, get ready for this.
So the guy's doing somepresentations, you know,
whatever, getting ready for hisshift, you know, do about 20
presentations in the mirror,just make sure nothing's
catching hanging up.
You know we have a, a policebelt on with all the gear.
You know, yeah, you want tomake sure that nothing's in the
way, nothing's shifted.
You want, you know, becausethat can be a fatal thing.

(29:52):
Like you know, you're checkingyour gear.
Or maybe you just lazily threwyour belt on left with a donut
in your hand and a coffee anddidn't even bother to check.
I mean, what if your holstercame undone?
Or what if, et cetera, etcetera, there could be some
issue with the equipment?
So you always check yourequipment.
Just go through and do a quickcheck.
You know, handcuffs are inplace, radio yada, yada, et

(30:13):
cetera, et cetera.
Well, anyway, so he did hispress checks, loaded his
revolver, checked everything,put it in the holster, out the
door he goes.
What do you think happened whenhe left the door?
A guy, I kid you not, this isthe craziest thing I've ever
heard.
A cop tell me okay and and look, this is bad, all right, it's

(30:33):
bad guy literally pops out ofthe bushes, right outside of his
house with a shotgun.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
And this guy, my friend, without even thinking
about it, just comes out of theholster with a revolver, double
action, right in the middle ofhis forehead, boom Shoots it,
and I'm talking.
A guy's got the shotgun pointedat him and he said some snarky
remark.
I'm going to kill you orsomething.
And this guy pulled out hiswheel gun and split, split,

(31:08):
instant Blink of an eye Rightbetween the damn eyes.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Shot the guy right in the head.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, it turns out the guy had been convicted of a
crime that he was arrested forby this guy, so he was trying to
get some revenge.
He had gotten out of prison, hesomehow found himself a shotgun
and decided he was going to gokill this guy.
And of course, you know, myfriend had other plans.
So imagine that your day ofwork, that day before you even

(31:37):
clocked in, you had to do somework and it was the most extreme
work you could ever imagine,right outside your front door.
Now, what if he had not donehis checks?
And what if he didn't do hispresentations?
Would he have been fast enoughto get on top of that guy with
the shotgun?
Maybe not.
Had it been any other cop onthe force, I guarantee they'd be
dead Not my guy, because thisguy is an amazing pistol

(31:59):
marksman.
For one, he's a really greatshot with a revolver.
I've never seen a guy shoot a1911 as good as this guy.
He's a good shot with a 1911.
And that's not the onlyshooting he's ever been involved
in.
He's been involved in othershootings, some with a Model 19,
and some with.
I think they were issuing m9sor berettas.
At one point or no, did theyswitch to model 59s.

(32:21):
Might have been the smiths, butanyway, at one point when
atlanta switched to some autoshe ended up shooting some people
the semi as well dang heretired in like the early 80s so
this is.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
I mean, it's been a while.
I'll tell you, man, when yousaid m9 beretta, there's one gun
I absolutely hate golly onemore story to tell.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Okay, now, it's not really a story, this is just
more of a point in case to youreffect.
I'm trying to back up some ofthe things that matt was saying
about this training uh,discrepancies that people may
have.
Um, and barry used to tell methis story all the time.
You guys remember my oldco-host, barry, rest his soul.
He's been gone quite a whilenow, but Barry used to tell me
the story about how, in the FBIand not only the FBI, but just

(33:06):
general law enforcement agencies, but I think this example came
from the FBI when the FBI wasstill issuing revolvers they
would have these coffee cansthat they would drop the shells
into so they wouldn't have topick up all the brass, right,
well, okay, it makes sense.
You're on a flat range, you'retraining.
You don't want to have a giantpile of brass for someone to
trip over.
It just makes sense to justdrop the brass in the coffee can

(33:28):
, right, well, what is thatdoing?
It's teaching you a bad habit,because now you're shooting your
rounds out of your revolver,you're opening the cylinder and
you're just ceremoniouslydumping the.
You know, going out of your wayto dump the shells into a
coffee can, and then you're justgrabbing rounds out of a box
and then loading the gun anddoing some shooting.
I mean it makes sense.
It would seem illogical.

(33:49):
You don't want to chase brasseverywhere.
You don't want someone trippingwith a loaded gun on some brass
on the floor.
I get it.
That makes sense.
What happened?
They found that officers in theduress of a shooting would
shoot and empty their revolverand then they would go to reload
and be looking for a can in themiddle of a gunfight.
They're like looking for theircan because they trained so much

(34:11):
to drop the brass in the canthat they were going through the
muscle memory of looking forsomething to drop their brass in
.
It was like like Smitty, whatare you doing?
You got a speed loader and theyweren't training with their
speed loaders.
They were training by justdropping loose rounds into the
chamber instead of using speedloaders.
So now you're fumbling, wastingtime looking for a can that's
not there and you're not evenusing the dang speed loader

(34:33):
that's issued with the gun.
Now, of course, they correctedthose training deficiencies, but
it didn't take long for them toidentify just how bad a bad
habit can can be in the end, ifyou allow that bad habit to
continue yeah on.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
I mean, that is a perfect example of you know how
training a certain way canaffect your real life.
Uh, performance, and you knowthat's why I'm not a huge fan of
you know performance and that'swhy I'm not a huge fan of you
know shooting competitions.
If you shoot a competition tosee if you're the best, that's
one thing, but don't pass it offas training.

(35:07):
It's a competition, it's.
It's something completelydifferent.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, so that that's.
That's a really great way toyou know.
Let that story kind of comefull circle when it comes to the
pistol training, and I I dowant to talk about rifles and
shotguns a little bit too.
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Yep, very cool, and a bigthanks to them for supporting

(36:14):
our efforts here on um, on llp.
So, um, I think, when we thinktraining Matt, and we think
shooting proficiency, I thinkmost people tend to gravitate to
handguns.
What do you think that is?
Why did we talk about handgunsfirst?
Why didn't we talk aboutshotguns and rifles first?
Why did we talk about handguns?
Why did the conversation gojust to handguns?

Speaker 3 (36:37):
I believe that it's probably because more people
have handguns and it's a littlebit more practical because they
actually carry them.
You're not concealed carrying.
I mean, maybe you are concealedcarrying a SBR, but most people
are going to conceal carry ahandgun.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Right, that's the way I look at it.
I mean, I think when mostpeople think shooting
proficiency, especially fordefensive purposes, they're
always going to be going to thatpistol training as being like a
super important thing.
What's crazy about it to me isthat, okay, this is where I
probably depart from maybe someother people in the training
community, which I do want totalk about formal training with,

(37:18):
with, with trainers Uh, peoplelike John Lovell, like John's
great, he is so good with people.
If you're in Atlanta and youever want to take um a gun
course, john Lovell isdefinitely a great guy for that
type of training, especially ifyou want to learn like some
advanced carbine handling andpistol handling.
He's definitely, you know,right on up there in a high
proficiency level course.

(37:39):
But one thing I'll mentionabout his courses though if you
do want to book a course withJohn Lovell, you certainly want
to get it while the getting'sgood, because they usually those
courses sell out pretty quickand also kd um kd with noc
training.
You know he does a great job.
Also my friend ken at perfectus, so there's lots of folks that

(37:59):
do amazing training here,especially and I'm speaking more
from georgia than I am otherstates.
There's obviously several othergreat trainers in other states
as well, but here in georgia, Imean, we've got some really
great trainers here.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
We do, we do, we have , we have access to a lot of
different areas to train as well.
So with us being in the South,we have a litany of different
areas.
We have mountainous terrain, wehave like forests, we have open
fields, flat, flat ranges.
We have all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, a lot of topography, a lot of different.
you know areas that we can shootin Shoot houses all kinds of
stuff, shoot houses, and onething I'll say is, like John
Lovell and I were having adiscussion about shotguns, I
guess that'll be a good way tosegue into shotguns, and I want
to sort of get into thisconversation, based on a
conversation that I have withJohn Lovell about shotguns.

(38:54):
One thing that John and Idisagreed on was the application
of shotguns and how importantthey are or aren't and why, and
I think the question that I hadfor him.
I was like hey, john, why do,why do less trainers teach
shotgun course?
You always see pistol and rifle, but you don't always see a
shotgun course for, uh, trainingpurposes.

(39:15):
And I think his response wasmore along the lines of well,
shotguns aren't as practical forwhat we do, as you know, a
rifle or a pistol, which I wouldagree.
I mean, if I had a choicebetween a rifle or a shotgun,
I'd probably choose a rifle.
Yep, that makes sense.
You're reaching for a long gunand you have a choice.
Well then, sure, your DanielDefense Mark 18 is going to be

(39:35):
the ticket, right.
But I didn't fully feelsatisfied by that and I was like
well, john, do you own ashotgun?
He's like I'm not really intoshotguns.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
I'm like bro, come on .

Speaker 2 (39:46):
But I noticed, like I saw some of the Warrior Poet
Network things that he wasposting and he's been talking
about shotguns more and I'mthinking, okay, maybe I got to
John a little bit, because youknow he, he's been showing off
shotguns and having some fun andjust doing some general like
fun videos, not necessarily justtraining but just showing off
cool stuff.
Which I remember when John and Iand this has been probably four

(40:09):
, maybe five years ago he and Ihad this discussion because he
came to my house and of coursehe saw my gun collection, he was
like, wow, like you have somuch crap that I have no idea
what this is Like.
He had such a sort of one trackmind on the tools of his trade.
You know, hey, he's got hisGlock 19.
He's got his, you know, hisrifle and that's it, like for

(40:31):
his job and what he did in themilitary.
Those are the tools of thetrade.
So you can't blame a person forbeing proficient with the tools
.
No-transcript.

(40:57):
I've noticed he's been playingwith some military rifles and
just coming out of his shell alittle bit and enjoying a little
bit of other guns than just aMark 18 and a Glock.
So I'm glad to see that, becauseproficiency, in my opinion, is
a universal thing.
I always go back to that movie,black Hawk Down.
I mean, look, I know Black HawkDown is a great movie, it's a

(41:20):
great war movie.
And in Black Hawk Down there'sa scene where the Rangers take
control of a recoilless rifleattached to a truck.
They capture this recoillessrifle, at least briefly and not
long enough to shoot a fewrounds out of it.
Yep, well, if you didn't knowhow to use a recoil-less rifle,
you'd be in trouble, wouldn'tyou?
So it's probably important toknow how to use guns that you

(41:41):
may not be familiar with,because you might have to
commandeer something that you'renot familiar with and guess
what?
You're going to be at adisadvantage if you've never
held an AK or an SKS orrecoilless rifle or an SVD or
whatever.
It could be a Ventures, itcould be anything, you know.
I'm sure even the dumbest gruntcould figure it out in not a

(42:03):
lot of time, but wouldn't it benice to have a little bit of a
working knowledge of some ofthose things?
So I'm glad to see him, sort of, you know, having fun with some
other stuff.
Yeah and there was.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
There were very few trainers that are, you know,
shotgun specific and that's dueto the fact that it's hard to
run a shotgun Like.
It's hard to run itproficiently, it's hard to load
it quickly, it's hard to carryenough ammunition to keep it fed
, to load it quickly, it's hardto carry enough ammunition to

(42:35):
keep it fed.
It's it's just way moretechnical and and like and the
application.
So if you watch some of theseuh training sessions because
I've seen some like some of thehigher level combat shotgun
training sessions like dude,these guys have their fingers
taped up because all they'redoing is just shucking shells
into a shotgun.
If they you know failure toextract, they're doing is just
shucking shells into a shotgun.
If you know failure to extract,they're trying to like pull

(42:56):
these shells out.
It's not as easy, as you know.
You're trying to run an AR, ar.
You just kind of bang it arounda couple of times like shotgun.
It Boom, something comes out.
You're ready to go.
But I'll tell you what ifyou're on the other side of

(43:17):
cover and you have someonethrowing eight or nine rounds of
double up buck, you know itlike it is, it is definitely
something you don't want comingyour way.
So it's just like you.
Just, it's just, you're gettingpeppered with it.
Um, it's, I like shotguns, butI, I, I am in agreements with
you.
I think that if you said, hey,pick one, I would definitely
pick a, uh, ar or a carbine.

(43:38):
Um, I think I can just get alittle bit more surgical with it
.
Yeah, um, and I know I cancarry enough ammunition to keep
it fed, true I think there's amisconception that shotguns are
not precise.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
I think that's another big thing is a lot of
whether it's a trainer orwhether it's the end user.
Going well, you know, they takethe Hollywood route and they go
well.
Shotguns just throw a giantspread and they're just
inaccurate.
Spray and pray and you just aimin the general direction.
That's not true, especially whenyou're talking the buckshot
rounds, like the federal flightcontrol buckshot which has the
flight control wad.

(44:11):
Talking the buckshot rounds,like the Federal Flight Control
buckshot which has the flightcontrol wad, it's very accurate
buckshot ammo I'm talking.
It can print a tiny buckshotgroup at like 30 yards, which is
absolutely crazy.
Now that's flight control,which is really really good ammo
.
Not all buckshot is going topattern like that, but it is not
impossible to get a tightbuckshot pattern out of a good
Benelli or really even some ofthe lesser expensive shotguns

(44:32):
still pattern well with thatammo, which is wild to me,
because it's really that WODdesign that makes a difference.
And um, I think that people tendto think that shotguns are not
precise, that they're notprecise tools, and that's
completely untrue.
I mean, a good shooter with a,with a good shotgun that knows
what they're doing, canabsolutely lay slugs down at 100
yards and they still havevisceral energy at 100 yards.

(44:53):
So I think that a shotgun is amuch more precise tool than
people you know maybe give itcredit for.
And that might intimidate a lotof trainers who maybe they
don't really know the way toapply a shotgun properly, and it
is true that, yes, you're.
Even with the mostwell-equipped sem-auto shotgun,

(45:13):
you're still dumbing yourselfdown to a third of the ammo you
can carry in one AR magazine.
So the logistics of, let's justsay, supply and demand of the
ammo you have on hand.
I think someone would rathergrab an AR that has a 30-round
magazine in it than a shotgunthat has nine rounds in it On
its best day.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
It has nine rounds in it.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Usually it's seven or eight, and what are you going
to do with those seven in it?
Than a shotgun that has ninerounds in it on its best day has
nine rounds in it usually isseven or eight.
And what are you going to dowith those seven or eight rounds
?
Well, let's go all the way backto the original discussion
where we talked about distances.
All right, and the averagedefensive distance for any gun.
Let's just say most defensivedistances.
Let's just say 21 feet.
Now, if I have seven rounds ofbuckshot or seven slugs and

(45:52):
you're 21 feet away from me, itdoesn't take a rocket scientist
to make that shot with a shotgun.
Yeah, You're not going to bethere much longer, and trust me
you are not going to require atrip to the hospital, you're
going to require a trip to themorgue.
That's it.
Bring a, bring a bag, zip it up.
That's it.
Put the tag on the toe.
Don't even take it to thehospital.
They're done A center mass shotfrom a good slug at that

(46:16):
distance out of a shotgun.
Don't even bother calling theambulance.
Call the morgue.
They're not getting up.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
I would even go as far to say like if you're
wearing plates like you wouldcall an ambulance.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
You're going to have some broken ribs.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
Yeah, it's going to cause some heavy, heavy
contusions.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
It's going to knock your breath out and you're going
to be dropping some ribs.
I mean it's definitelyespecially like a one and
three-eighth ounce Berniki BlackMagic Slug.
So I think there's also thissort of oddly sort of
romanticized application thatshotguns have, like everyone
thinks of the.
You know the sound that themedia uses and the Hollywood

(46:55):
always uses a shotgun and thenlike the sound of racking it and
people Ooh, they run away, theyget scared.
I suppose there is maybe apsychological factor to that,
but I think people get way tooromanticized on that aspect of
it and not really think aboutthe actual applications that
shotguns can have.
I mean, at close range they area very powerful tool.
I mean you're talking a goodslug like a one and three eighth

(47:19):
ounce Bernicke Black Magic.
I always bring up the BlackMagic slug because that's my
slug of choice, because it'sheavy and it's moving fast and
it's well made.
But that slug is generatingsome ridiculous foot pounds of
energy.
Now we're not talking like fourbore territory.
We're not talking 577 nitroexpress, big bore stalking rifle

(47:39):
territory, but we might betalking, you know, at the right
range.
You're talking a gun that couldcould potentially, you know,
kill very large game like you'retalking very similar foot
pounds of energy to some bigbore rifles like hunting rifles
so if you think about it interms of energy and don't think
about it in terms of birdshot,everybody thinks a shotgun, they

(48:02):
think birdshot that they don'trealize it shoots solids too,
and and powerful ones, likethere's a very powerful gun and
if you know how to use it right,it can, you know, shoot through
walls, you can shoot throughcar doors, so that has an
application.
It will do things that riflebullets won't in certain limited

(48:23):
situations.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Not to sound like berninke, is uh sponsoring the
show because they're definitelynot but they actually have talk
to us by the

Speaker 2 (48:31):
way.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
If you want call us um, but they have a barrier
penetrator around the specialforces.
It's actually called thebernieke, like special forces,
right it's?
Special forces barrierpenetrator specifically made
like barrier penetration.
So it's like, hey, car doors,metal door.
Because then I know in iraqmetal doors were a big thing,
like a lot of the doors therewere metal those shotgun slugs

(48:53):
will do things that riflebullets won't.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yep, now again we're going to go all the way back
around, full circle.
We talked about pistols andshotguns.
We picked on John Lovell alittle bit Good guy, by the way,
yeah, definitely a good guy butwe save rifles for last.
We're not going to spend a lotof time talking about rifles,
because I feel like rifles arethis universal tool that we're
all going to fight towards.
If you had a choice between ashotgun, a pistol or a rifle,

(49:17):
most people would grab a rifle.
If we did a poll, I guarantee90% would grab the rifle.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
And if you don't, if you're concerned about not
having ever shot a rifle, Iguarantee you you will shoot
better with that rifle, havingnever shot one, than shooting
that handgun or a shotgunespecially.
Yeah because I mean just thefact that they have like I think
we talked about this beforeI've never met someone that

(49:44):
didn't shoot better with a stockor a brace that doesn't shoot
with one.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
Just because it just gives you so much more stability
, or has never shot a gun at all.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Yeah, so that's a factor too.
I mean, if, if someone's a newshooter, you know they're all if
, if.
If you don't want to train themon a pistol right out the gate,
let's say they're recoil shy orthey're sound shy, they're
worried about the sound andrecoil.
You start them out on a 10-22with a suppressor on it.
You know they realize itdoesn't kick, they realize it's
not loud, they realize it'saccurate.

(50:12):
They can work on thefundamentals, they can work on
everything.
You can talk to them whileyou're shooting, don't have to
worry about the sound.
So those things from a trainingelement can, can really look
rimfires, make a big deal onthat.
It's really good to get some ofthat, some of that you know,
into play there.
But at the end of the day, yes,rifles are way easier to shoot
than shotguns.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
It gives you a much better natural point of aim,
like the way that you hold arifle or even let's just say,
like a pd, pdw or a flux,anything that kind of puts that
those sights out in front of youjust gives you a much better
natural point of aim yeah, youcan hold the gun a lot more
stable yeah, like that, whenyou're shooting a handgun,
unless you practice likegenuinely practice a lot, you're

(50:54):
going to get a lot of floating,you're going to get a lot of
like down into the left action,because that's that's where
everybody tends to go.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
I know very few people matt that can come out of
a holster with a glock 19 andand place a couple of rounds in
quick succession on a on a plateat like 100 yards or something
yeah, that's.
It's not a common skill for youraverage shooter to be able to
just do on the regular right.
It takes a lot of practice toshoot that.
Well now could a person ofaverage skill you know, maybe

(51:25):
they've worked on the draw couldthey engage a steel plate at
seven yards with relativeproficiency.
Maybe they don't get them allin the A zone, but they hit the
plate.
That's much more achievable.
Work on getting fast andaccurate at the ranges you're
going to use the pistol in in acombat situation first.
Then you can worry about doingtrick shots at 100 yards,

(51:48):
because really a 100-yard shotis a trick shot at the end of
the day.
You're not practically going toshoot a handgun at 100 yards.
Really a 100 yard shot is atrick shot at the end of the day
.
Like you're, you're notpractically going to shoot a
handgun 100 yards.
You can get away.
You can get to a better gun, Ican get to a rifle.
Why would I want to go out ofmy way?
And this kind of gets in theargument of if PCCs are
worthless or not, which we'renot going to go there.
That's a whole nother bag ofapples that we're not going to
open right here at the end ofthe show, but I think that I

(52:09):
think that people tend to placetoo high of an emphasis on
shooting handguns at long rangewhen there may not always
necessarily be a tacticalapplication to shoot it that far
.
I'm not saying don't be good atit, because I do it all the
time, I love it.
But I also realize thatpractically I'm not going to go
there, I'm going to grab a longgun.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Yeah, I mean, why lob a Nerf football at somebody
when you can send a laser beam,you know that's?
I mean that's basically, ifyou're trying to lob in at 100
yards a 9 mil like, you can justpick up, you know, your rifle
and send a 5.56.
Like, because that same exactshot, completely different hold.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
I think I've never really been a fan of subsonic
300 blackout.
I like the two twenties you know, two twenties out of a
suppressor.
Yeah, they're quiet, but butyou might as well just shoot a
45 ACP at that point.
I mean it it, it drops similar,it's a similar weight.
Maybe the two twenties out ofthe 300 blackout have a better
ballistic coefficient, becausethe bullet more bullet shaped

(53:11):
versus a 45 is kind of a bowlingball just falls out of the air.
Sure, okay, but you could zeroa 45 caliber carbine for 100
yards with with a can and justhave it for that distance I'm
glad you said that, I'm glad youbrought that out, that 110
triple shock, now is anotherstory now, that's a monster out
of a 16 inch barrel you'retalking.
That's a nice little honestcontender in a 300 blackout.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Well, I'm glad you mentioned that about 300
blackout, because I've neverreally liked it.
Um, you know, it's a fun roundto shoot and it's it's fun for
the range.
But that is a prime example ofhow something was designed for a
very, very specific mission.
It was designed for a very,very specific mission.

(53:53):
It was designed for specialunit operators to be able to go
in shoot something subsonic,very quiet, little recoil, very
close range, no body armor.
The combatants that you'reusing this against in the Middle
East don't wear body armor, soyou don't have the contention,
you don't have to worry abouthaving high velocities coming in
to penetrate.
It's very, very missionspecific and that's because the

(54:17):
you know what is it.
Usasoc put out RFQ or a requestfor a proposal on this specific
round and then it got out to thepublic and everybody's like, oh
, the special forces uses it.
It must be like really good inhigh speed, but it's for a very
specific mission set.
If you hit somebody with levelfour plates with that, it's

(54:38):
gonna like it doesn't have thepower, it doesn't have the speed
to really do anything.
It's coming out of a seven toeight inch barrel.
Yeah, you know, very closerange work, um, so I've just
never been a fan.
It's super expensive, likeyou're talking two dollars,
three dollars around um.
On the civilian side, if you goand look it up, um, and it has
a place, as you know, it's funat the range.

(54:59):
Or if you have some you knowdelusions of grandeur that you
know you're gonna go out andlike need to use this in in real
life it'll work, but notagainst people that are armored
up.
It just doesn't work that way,um, and I know there's gonna be
people out there that are 300blackout.
You know they love it, butlet's just face the facts, man.

(55:20):
That's what it is it's?
it's designed for a veryspecific mission set that
doesn't.
It's not applicable, uh, to thecurrent situation, which is
probably why they're not usingit right now.
Right now, they've kind of wentopposite.
Now they're like oh man,everybody's got armor, we need
penetrators.
So now they're going with uh,what is it this?

(55:41):
The fury, what do they callthat?
Whatever that new round, thesig came out with 277 whatever
it is yeah, I mean they went thecomplete opposite direction.
Let's make it bigger, stronger,faster, instead of smaller,
slower, quieter.
I think they're gonna regretthat.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
I believe I think in in the long term they're.
I mean not, I'm not trying totake a dump on sig, because I
think they're a fantasticcompany and they make some
really good stuff um, but I feellike they're gonna regret that
decision.
Um, well, I already.
I mean, look at some of thesoldiers you saw recently.
Like you know, they ain'tpassing a tape test.
And that's a hefty rifle totote around.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
I was just talking about it.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
today, you're asking an infantryman to tote around a
bigger rifle.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Yep, I just don't see it in them.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Well, and I think they have had some issues.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
They've had some issues with the chamber
pressures and and stuff, becauseit's it's another work all yeah
, it's an extremely high chamberpressure in that particular
round, um, but I mean, as far asrifles go, uh, you're right.
So everything should be tofight back to the rifle, right,
and once you get the rifle.
And so what are we looking at,like practicing with a rifle?
Again, we're not talking.

(56:51):
We need to work on the stuff.
That's not sexy so, like youknow, it's easy to get in line,
get that natural point of aimand shoot.
Now we got to work on up drillslike hey, getting up to it, how
are you presenting that rifle?
Like when you're coming up, areyou are?
There's different rules ofthought.
There's guys that carry highport and come down.
There's guys that carry lowready and come up, and then you

(57:13):
have the high speed guys thatpunch out when they do it.
You just have to find out, like, what works best for you.
How are you going to presentthat, that rifle for for the
best outcome?

Speaker 2 (57:23):
yeah, and you know, practicing your offhand shooting
, which I know I'm guilty ofshooting from a bench a lot
because I I kind chase accuracyand I love kind of seeing how
accurate guns can be and I getpigeonholed into.
Well, I don't shoot offhand asmuch as I really should,
primarily in videos.
I mean, when I'm filmingYouTube videos on rifles, I like
to shoot from the bench becauseI want to show the potential

(57:44):
the rifle can do.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
It's not about how good I can shoot.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
This is how good the rifle can do, and I want people
to get an honest representationof what the rifle's capable of,
not what I'm capable of.
So that's at least that's thestory I'm going to tell, but you
know it is important to shootoff hand Before we get any
further in the show.
We're going to probably wrapthings up here in a moment.
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Speaker 3 (59:20):
Heck yeah $5,000.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
$5,000 worth of gold.
It would have to be one heck ofan initial purchase.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Well, I mean, if you're in the market to get that
and start investing, thenthey're just kind of putting a
little bit of icing on the cake,that's right.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
So in in closing, I guess we could say that training
is an investment in your future.
Absolutely, I mean you.
You should gather proficiencyin everything you do in life,
whether you know if, if you'retrying to, you're going to be in
a car owner, I mean for anyamount of time.
Eventually you're going toprobably need to learn how to
turn a wrench or two and try toassess a few problems on your

(59:55):
own.
Yep, same thing for motorcycles, same thing for owning a gun.
So owning a gun means knowinghow to use the gun, knowing how
to clean the gun, how to draw it, how to use it, what your
rights and responsibilities areand everything in between.
So you know there is anall-encompassing circumstance
that goes into the way that weview firearms ownership, and you

(01:00:16):
know those of us that, I think,think more like you and I do.
You know we understand the sortof totality of it and there are
people that wind up getting agun and maybe they don't always
necessarily think abouteverything that goes into it.
They buy a cheap little holster, they buy some ball ammo, they
throw some ammo in it and theygo about their day.
Will that work out for them?
Hopefully, I mean.

(01:00:37):
We can only hope that it wouldRealistically, will it?
I mean, I guess that's a riskyou have to be willing to take
If you, you know, don't want toput in the time to be really
truly proficient with thefirearm that you've purchased.
You're kind of gambling withyour own life at that point,
because introducing a firearm tothe scenario may actually be
detrimental to you if you aren'tactually really prepared to

(01:01:00):
deploy it in a way that's goingto make a difference.
So having a gun is great,that's a first good step.
But deploying it in a way thatis actually going to change the
tide of the battle, so to speak,is equally important.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
No, you're right, and I think that's exactly when
people say don't become aliability, like don't you
pulling that firearm out, youbetter know how to use it.
Hopefully and I would say, youknow, I think we had a great
conversation and I think what,hopefully, what everybody
understands is that you need totrain the unsexy part of

(01:01:36):
everything.
It's always the unsexy stuffthat you know we'll get the job
done, um, that's right.
So hopefully we, you know youguys get out there and you can
train a little bit more, um, ifyou want to, and then go from
there, Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Well, guys to and then go from there.
Absolutely well, guys.
Thanks so much for tuning in totoday's podcast.
We hope you enjoyed today'sshow.
Uh, remember we post everywherethat you can find all your
favorite podcasts stitcher,spotify, apple podcasts, etc.
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Uh, you can drop in um acomment if you want or give us
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We're more than happy to answerquestions on the air, uh, which

(01:02:12):
I actually forgot to do intoday's show.
I do have some questions, butthey'll have to wait till next
show.
Get it next time.
We'll get them next time, but Iwill.
I will take those questionsdown that were recently
submitted and answer them in thenext show.
Also, follow us at iraq veteran8888 on twitter as well.
As you know, we do post theshow every monday at 9.m Eastern
Standard Time here on theYouTube channel if you want to

(01:02:33):
watch this in video form as well, and the Instagram is
LLPpodcast underscore official.
That is correct.
Follow us on Instagram as well,and you can also follow me at
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I share a lot of the LLPcontent over there as well.
You have to type the wholething in, though.
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(01:02:54):
and you're wondering why I'm notshowing up, that's why.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
I'm shadow banned.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Anyway, thanks so much for tuning in many more on
the way.
You guys have a good one.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
Train hard.
Thanks for listening to life,liberty and pursuit.
If you enjoyed the show, besure to subscribe on Apple
Podcasts, spotify and anywhereelse podcasts are found.
Be sure to leave us a five-starreview.
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Ballistic Inc by pickingyourself up some merch and
remember guys, dangerous freedom.
Have a good one.