LLP Ep129: Sig Sauer's Safety Crisis

Ask us a question. We will answer it on the podcast.

Show sponsors:
My Patriot Supply
MyPatriotSupply.com/LLP
FREE 4-Week Food Supply

A U.S. airman's death from an unintended SIG Sauer M-18 discharge has thrust a long-simmering controversy into the spotlight. For years, SIG's P320 platform—which includes the military's M17 and M18 pistols—has faced accusations of firing when they shouldn't, leaving a trail of injuries across police departments and military units nationwide.

Eric and Matt examine the mechanics behind these dangerous malfunctions, explaining how a slightly depressed trigger combined with kinetic force can cause the striker to fall without warning. What's particularly troubling is SIG's apparent knowledge of the issue. As Eric reveals, "One of the engineers at SIG told me that they know the problem, they know the fix, but it's kind of difficult to know which guns are affected."

The stakes couldn't be higher. With billions in military contracts on the line, SIG faces an impossible calculation: recall thousands of pistols or continue to deflect blame while risking more injuries or deaths. For military personnel who don't have the luxury of choosing their sidearm, this corporate risk analysis becomes a matter of life and death.

Between serious discussions, the hosts lighten the mood with a taste test of viral Dubai chocolate and reflections on firearms innovation. They emphasize that while all new designs face challenges, the difference lies in how companies respond—fix the problems transparently or prioritize profits over safety.

Whether you're a firearms enthusiast, military member, or concerned citizen, this episode offers crucial insights into a controversy that raises profound questions about corporate responsibility, military procurement, and the trust we place in the tools designed to protect us. Have you experienced issues with your SIG? Should manufacturers be held to a higher standard when lives are at stake?

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back everybody.
This is Eric and Matt, and thisis Life, liberty and the
Pursuit, your beacon of freedomand the American way of life.
Tune in every Monday for a newepisode as we dive into the
world of liberty and what makesour country great.
And welcome back everybody.
This is Eric and Matt, herewith LLP.
I hope you've all had a greatweek.
You're home, for all thingsnormal in a world of debauchery,

(00:24):
in a world gone mad.
Here we are, your beacon offreedom in this crazy little
rude world we live in.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yes, if they could hear us like 30 seconds before
the mics go.
Live man, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Sometimes I wonder if we should just record, like the
hour leading up to it and justnot even record a normal show,
because that might be actuallymore damn entertaining.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, be the podcast right there.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, it'd be one doozy of a podcast today's show.
Uh, we're going to focusprimarily on sig.
Okay, and and look, I know whatpeople are thinking.
You know this is not someattempt to bash anybody or
anything, but we have questions.
I think a lot of people theinternet in general.

(01:07):
They have their pitchforks andtorches out right now.
We had an airman thatunfortunately had an M-18
discharge when it was notsupposed to and he died.
That sucks, that's no good.
Of course we hate to see thesekind of things happen.
There's a certain level ofacceptance that soldiers and

(01:29):
airmen and anyone who's in themilitary has to have some form
of acceptance that trainingaccidents can and will occur and
you know what it's part of thejob is the accepted risk that
sometimes things happen andthat's just.
That's the fact of it.
Now, was this just a fact of?
Oh, something just happened, itwas a fluke incident, or is

(01:51):
there something a little bitmore to this situation that
meets the eye and I think we allknow, based on what people have
been saying in the past aboutSIG and some of the well-known
and well-documented cases ofthese guns discharging when
they're not wanted to dischargehas been kind of a well-known

(02:12):
and well-documented fact.
Now I've talked to SIG here andthere.
One of the engineers from SIGI'm not going to say his name
because I certainly don't wantto get him any trouble with his,
with his employer, okay, yes,of course, obviously not.
But one of the engineers at sigtold me that they, they know
the problem, they know the fix,but that that is kind of

(02:40):
difficult to know which guns areaffected and which ones aren't
I can see that because there'sso many of them out out in the
wild, um, because it not only isnot m17s and 18s is also like
320s all right, so it's all thesame basic mechanism, correct in
terms of the way they work.
So, in case you guys don't knowhow more or or less how these

(03:02):
pistols not necessarily how theywork, but one of the big sort
of selling points andinteresting things about these
guns what it actually is, it'swhat's called a fire control
unit.
Okay, so the serial numberedportion on this gun is actually
just a removable sort of triggerchassis, okay, and that is the

(03:27):
serialized portion of the gunthat is for the purposes of
transferring and calling it afirearm.
It is actually just thistrigger housing assembly.
I'll show you real quick.
Okay, so we just bring thislever down.
Now.
This is a Wilson Combat gripframe assembly, okay, that I

(03:47):
added on here, but I'm not goingto pull the whole thing apart,
but it's basically just thisassembly right here and if you
look through the window, you cansee the serial number and
there's a micro-stamped sort ofcode that you can scan.
That'll give you all sorts ofinformation, of course, the
model of the gun and the serialnumber of the firearm.
This is a Wilson combat gripmodule and this is my stock M17

(04:11):
pistol direct from SIG.
Now, what problem are these gunsexperiencing.
Well, there's been some randomtests and there's been some
well-documented type ofsituations.
But I am going to, in thefuture, go out on the range and
live with live ammunition.

(04:32):
I guarantee you that I canreplicate what is going on with
these guns.
And it's not just me, it'sother people that have kind of
done a little bit of playingaround and figured out how to
replicate the issue when thetrigger is slightly depressed,
just a bit.
Okay if the, if the trigger isslightly depressed and the gun

(04:53):
experiences some sort of kineticforce, such as being dropped or
something to that effect.
Or let's say the pistol dropslike this and it hits in this
manner.
Okay, if it hits, let's justsay, where the slide is still
forced into battery.
Right, if the pistol hits onthe back part of the, the grip,

(05:15):
uh, safety area, or let's justsay the part of the frame, then
the pistol could theoreticallyshift out of battery, which
would prevent the pistol fromdischarging if there were some
failure in the mechanism.
I think most of the situationswhere these pistols are being
dropped and going off involvethe pistol landing on the actual

(05:36):
slide and the kinetic energyslightly depressing that trigger
and it doesn't take much forcein just the right spot to make
the striker fall.
Okay, and that's a very unsafesituation.
Now, is that to say that justbecause somebody has an M17 or

(05:57):
M18 strapped on their hip thatit's dangerous and they're going
to kill themselves with it?
No, these are extremelyisolated situations that happen
under apparently extremelyspecific circumstances.
How many thousands of theseguns are out there?
Thousands, right.
How many do you actually seehurting people?

(06:18):
Now the accepted answer, matt,should be that no gun should
discharge when you don't want itto Correct.
Of course, I understand wherepeople are coming from.
Okay, I'm not trying to defendSIG.
I'm not trying to defend thisgun design.
I like this gun design.
I love the M17.
This is one of my favoritehandguns.
It has forced me to questionwhether or not I really trust

(06:47):
this gun to carry my battle beltor whether or not I'm gonna
switch back to my glock 19x,which I think we know what the
answer is there at this point.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, you know you have to ask yourself how many.
So when you look at the grandscheme of things in the big
picture, this only came to lightmainly because the police
forces were using this firearmand they were experiencing nds.
And there are a lot of reports,like you know guns going off in

(07:13):
the holster, guns going off inthe holster at training, guns
going off in the holster whilethey're in their briefing room
and, like you know, they'resitting down in this.
It's hitting.
But they all had the samecommon denominator they were all
SIG how many of those-?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
And they were all in holsters Exactly.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Now they started saying, oh, that's a customized
holster like this, that's notthe right holster for that.
It shouldn't really matter,because the trigger is covered.
There was no action on thetrigger, right?
But now look back and say manynds did you see reported with
glocks, like they didn't happen.
They didn't exist because theproblem didn't exist, right,

(07:53):
they only happen with sigs, andI mean I'm I'm not a sig fan boy
, I don't shoot sig, but theyare known as a premium firearm.
And then you have to askyourself the reports were there,
it happened with the police andthen it started happening in
the military.
And then now we have the airmanthat unfortunately was shot in

(08:16):
the chest with his own firearmwhile it was sitting on the
shelf.
Who is going to take care ofthat airman's family?
Because that's not with all ofthe stuff that sig has been
putting out and, unfortunately,with us being in the military
previously, we know that they're.
The sgli is probably going tocover some of that, but in my

(08:40):
opinion that's something thatone should have never happened.
That family should be takencare of for the rest of their
life because that's something.
He was using a weapon that wasissued by the military.
He had no choice.
It's not like you have a choicein the matter of what you, what
you carry, what you're issuedunless you're like jay sock or

(09:01):
whatever and those guys can kindof pick and choose what they
want and truthfully, those guyscan probably break anything
eventually, if you give enoughtime.
But, you know, given thecircumstances, you know, think
of all the police, the policemenand policewomen.
They got shot in the leg Likethey're shooting themselves in
the leg.
You know, they might haveruined their careers.
And Sig is denying no, it's notus.

(09:22):
Well, now the cat's out of thebag.
All right, something has to bedone, as far as you know,
compensating the people thatwere injured, whether they're
shot themselves in the leg,whether you know, unfortunately,
the airmen that that died.
So what are the next steps now?
Because now you have a firearmscompany that has, you know,

(09:45):
tens of thousands of firearmsout in the, out in the wild.
I think the Marine Corps aloneordered like 50,000.
Well, so the Marine, the, themilitary, is a little bit of an
easier fix because they can justcollect it.
It's the civilian side.
Yeah, that is going to be thethe problem, because, again, on
the military side there's noliability as far as what the

(10:09):
military does, but on thecivilian side there's a ton of
liability.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
And, generally speaking, the one good thing
that they have going for them isthat generally most people use
a military issue holster.
So if the holster is causingsome depressing of the trigger
or some sort of inducing amalfunction, somehow they can
narrow that down.
Okay, maybe it's the holsterdesign that's causing it.

(10:35):
Of course we know the gun isthe culprit.
Because the gun is the culprit,I mean, at the end of the day,
if a gun goes offunintentionally and it's not
related to ammo or not relatedto some faulty component, that
maybe it just failed, in that,you know, any component can fail
once in a blue moon.

(10:56):
Right, have I broken a strikeron a Glock before?
Yes, I have.
Did it cause the gun touncontrollably go off?
No, it just means the strikerbroke.
It happens.
It's a consumable part and ittakes mere minutes, if not even
a minute.
I could change it out in 60seconds.
It's a super easy component tojust swap back out and you're

(11:17):
back to the races.
We're not talking about a flattire here, okay.
We're talking about somethingyou know.
We're talking about a bolt inthe engine from the factory.
This is something that cannotbe, you know, ignored.
Okay, now is SIG doing their duediligence to properly address
the issue and and and see to itthat these types of things don't

(11:39):
happen again.
Well, the air force released astatement saying that all of the
guns in that unit are beingpulled.
And you know, ok, yeah, likeyou said, pull the guns, get
them back in the armory, sendthem back to SIG, no telling
what SIG's going to do to them.
I will tell you this.
Now, I'm not going to saywhether or not I heard this

(12:01):
direct from this engineer or not.
I'm not going to go there andlook, I don't want to get anyone
in hot water and I don't wantto get myself no one in hot
water, I don't want sick in hotwater.
The truth is, I'm sure there'sa fix.
Wink, wink, there's a fix.
Anything mechanical that canhave a problem can be fixed.
The situation can be probablyresolved.

(12:25):
Okay, the question is at whatpoint does someone decide?
You know what?
Maybe the juice isn't worth thesqueeze here?
You know, yeah, can they fixthe issue?
Yeah, they can.
Does that mean that someone'sgoing to trust the gun anymore?
Are people going to have a badtaste in their mouth?
I mean like, okay, the originalM16s came out.

(12:46):
Soldiers in Vietnam.
Some of them were running M14sand the first guy to be handed
an M16.
No cleaning kit, crummy ballpowder.
The gun was rushed into servicetoo quick.
Now, the list of people whothink that the AR-15 is not a
good gun design now, all theseyears after Vietnam, now that

(13:08):
list of people is probably veryshort.
Most of those guys ain't aroundanymore.
They're not with the livinganymore or they're very old and
they don't care.
But was the AR, was the M16 asa gun design?
Was it always perfect?
It wasn't without its problems,but that's bureaucracy that
caused those problems.
Right Ball powder?
That wasn't the correct powder.

(13:29):
Right Twist rate issues, wrongpowder, not issuing the proper
cleaning kits those arelogistical and leadership
failures and failures in all ofthose sorts of things.
That's not necessarilyengineering failure from Cole or
whoever right.

(13:50):
Okay, the M16 was and alwayshas been a great gun from day
one.
It's the logistics that failedthat gun.
Is that the same here, though?
That gun?
Is that the same?
Here, though Not so much.
These guns clearly have somesort of an issue.

(14:11):
Now the SIG P365, which is themore compact micro nine version
of essentially a sort of shrunkdown version of the M18 and M17
series.
The 365 is a very popular gunand it wasn't without its little
teething issues.
Early on, in fact, you and I'mat, we tested, we did a thousand
round torture test on the SIG Pthree 65 and you know it was

(14:34):
having that primer swipe issuewhere it was putting those marks
on the primers and some peoplewere experiencing some issues.
We didn't experience any issues.
Is that to take away fromsomeone that did Well?
No, we didn't experience anyissues.
Is that to take away fromsomeone that did well?
No, if someone experienced anissue, they experience an issue.
But now they're saying is thatthe, the 365, can also
potentially discharge in thesame manner.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
If the trigger's slightly depressed and the stars
align in the perfect way and ittakes some kinetic force,
theoretically the gun coulddischarge I mean, I think that
there was some complicity,complicit arrogance, I would

(15:16):
even say um in the whole deal,because sig had such a big
contract with the military thatit was in their favor and their
benefit to ignore the issue orpass the buck to the actual
firearm owner, because they knowthat if they were to admit

(15:39):
fault on anything they wouldlose, I would even say, billions
of dollars.
All the military contracts, notjust with the US, but a lot of
these firearms companies havecontracts with foreign
militaries as well.
You know how much money theywould lose.
If there was any admission offault for anything that was

(16:03):
issued to the military, theywould file for bankruptcy that
contract.
Not only did they have the M17,m18 contracts, they had the
ammo contracts, they had the newrifle contracts, they had the
new LMG contracts, they had thenew.
Every single thing relied onnothing being proven.

(16:29):
So you just kept seeing, saylike past the buck along, past
the buck along.
First it was holsters and thenit was like oh, they had lights.
So the holster was like moldedover the light Didn't give good
trigger protection, somethingdropped down inside the trigger

(16:51):
depressed the trigger.
But when it comes down to it,it wasn't just SIG.
It was also a lot of thetrainers that were a lot of the
very well-known trainers, wereaware.
There were some that stood upand said, hey, we're not
allowing SIG P320s in ourtraining classes.
There's video of 320s going offon the firing line.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
That's cold-hearted man.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
Hey.
But you have to look at it.
If you're from a businessaspect, if you are a private
trainer and you're hostingclasses, the last thing you want
on the line is a discharge likehurting somebody to your left
or your right.
So you had the trainers thatwere complicit in saying, oh,
this is a perfectly fine gun.

(17:30):
Absolutely not, it's not.
You had the military kind oflockstep with Sig because the
military doesn't want to lookbad.
The military is not going to belike, oh, we should have went
with Glock.
Obviously they should have wentwith Glock.
Obviously they should have wentwith Glock.
Uh, my personal opinion causethat if the, if the deciding
factor was oh, one had, um, asafety and one didn't, you can

(17:54):
make one with a safety.
It is possible.
Ask California, everything overthere has a safety, all right,
um.
But also you have the way thatthe recalls work.
If you guys are familiar with,you know, vehicle and insurance
actuaries.
They look at the numbers andthey say what is the break even

(18:18):
analysis on when we do a recall,when we do a recall?
So SIG is not quite at thatnumber, I suppose, where they
say, hey, the amount of moneyit's going to cost us legally is
still less than any type oflawsuit that we have to pay out.
That's what they're looking at.
Is it going to cost us more torecall all of these firearms and

(18:43):
fix them and send them backRight, or is it going to be less
for us to pay out a lawsuit forsomeone that that dies and at
this point in time it's cheaperto pay out the lawsuit than it
is to recall?

Speaker 1 (18:56):
to rehab, yeah, to rehab everything.
That's a very good point.
Well, matt, I'm not gonna.
I'm not gonna put the cartbefore the horse, because I do
want to make a dedicated YouTubevideo on trying to induce some
failures in this gun.
Not to put the cart before thehorse.
I think I know what's causingthat issue.
I really do.
I'm not going to say it, though, because I don't want to
implicate Tune in.
Well, I don't want to implicateany engineers that I've talked

(19:21):
to.
I don't want them getting introuble and, plus, I promised
them I wouldn't say anything.
That's the reality.
I care about relationships andthere is a fix, and it's a
simple fix.
I think it's a simple fix.
What a shame, because I reallydo like this gun, matt.

(19:44):
I do this gun, matt.
They're great shooters.
I love this gun.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
They're great guns.
I mean, if you can just get onethat won't kill you.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
I know right.
So I do want to give a quickmoment here to give a shout out
to our sponsor for today's show,and that is MyPatriotSupplycom.
They are a long-term supporterof LLP.
Big thanks to them forcontinuing to work with us for
the long term.
They're such a great group ofpeople and a big thanks to them.

(20:12):
This summer isn't just hot, it'shistoric Flash flood warnings
are at a 40-year high and it'snot slowing down.
Towns are underwater, roads arewashed out, and in every crisis
zone the same scene Crowds areunderwater, roads are washed out
and in every crisis zone, thesame scene Crowds are standing
in line and they're waiting,waiting for bottled water,
waiting for food, waiting forsomeone to show up and save them
.
And they tell you that help ison the way.

(20:34):
But what if it isn't?
What if the help takes days orit never comes at all?
You think this system is builtto protect you.
They can barely handle oneemergency, let alone dozens.
I don't know about you, but I'mnot going to be the one caught
empty-handed.
And right now MyPatriotSupplyis giving away four weeks of
emergency food.
Just go to MyPatriotSupplycomslash LLP, that's Lima, lima,

(20:57):
papa to find out how to claimyour free four-week food supply
and join millions of Americanswho are preparing with
MyPatriotSupply.
Claim your free four-week kittoday at MyPatriotSupplycom.
Forward slash LLP.
That's MyPatriotSupplycom.
Forward slash LLP.
That is Lima, lima, papa, fourweeks worth of food doesn't suck

(21:21):
.
Yes, now I could probably eatit in two weeks, but that's
another story I will tell you.
I mean thanks so much.
I've been eating some.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah Well, thanks so much to my Patriot Supply Great
company Always supported theshow.
So yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Getting back to Sig.
So we are going to sort ofdivert on the show today.
I mainly wanted to discuss theSIG stuff and everything like
that, but we are going to talkabout some other stuff in
today's show.
But real quick, I will say Ilove SIGs.
It's very hard for someone toremove their bias from the

(21:59):
situation.
No one wants to be told Matt,that their gun is dangerous,
especially now.
Now, look, I'm just beinghonest here.
Y'all I own sigs.
Okay, nobody wants to be toldtheir sigs a piece of crap, it's
a sig.
Look, sigs aren't cheap sig youmake people consider sig to be
kind of a high-end brand, likenot you know.

(22:21):
And when someone hears sixhours like, oh yeah, sig, you
know, I mean, who doesn't lovetheir 226?
What a great gun, right, thenavy seals loved it and still
love it, and I guarantee you, asnavy seals, rather have a dusty
old 226 than this now, is thatto say that sig hasn't put out
some doozies?
They have.
Sig has put out some great gunsand I really hate, you know.

(22:44):
I truly know in my heart thatnone of this is malicious.
You know, nothing's malicious.
They didn't go out of their wayto try to make this happen.
Obviously, no one, nobody,wants to put out a gun that's
going to discharge when it's notsupposed to.
Maybe they, you know, wentthrough a little too quick and
maybe it's just something theydidn't find in testing.
Yeah, I seriously doubt that intesting, if this issue came up,

(23:09):
that they would allow this gunto go out the door.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, the running joke-.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Maybe they just didn't know.
Given the benefit I'm willingto give them benefit of the
doubt that maybe they justdidn't damn know.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Well, you know, eric, the running joke is that you
know, the testing is the public.
With SIG, like that was kind oflike their thing.
They kind of put it out there,people like they let the general
public be the, the testers, the, the beta testers, and then
they come back and that startedwith the 365, everybody's like
hey, we got to do this, we gotto fix that.
So it's always it's kind of beentheir thing for a few years now

(23:44):
.
Um, but you're right, sig isknown as a premium product, like
you know, very similar to likewhen you.
There's companies out therethat are in that same vein, like
hk, like when you, when youlike, oh what do you shoot?
I shoot hk, I shoot a sig.
You know, I shoot a staccato,like those are.
There are certain brands thatare just a little bit higher
tier than other guns.

(24:07):
Um, you know, I would even saythat I've heard people um
blaming the chassis system.
They're like oh it's, you know,you don't see this because
that's the chassis system and Iwould and I always this is
aftermarket, but I tell you,ever seen this script?
yeah, yeah, the wilson combatgrips.
Yeah, have you held it oh?

Speaker 1 (24:26):
it's not bad.
Can you reach?
I cannot.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Damn it, man, one second, come on come on, come on
, there you go.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Don't worry, there's nothing in it.
It is unloaded, guys.
It's unloaded, dude, yep,unloaded.
But, I mean, isn't that nice?

Speaker 2 (24:38):
It is.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
I mean, but SIGs they shoot, so so I want it.
So I feel like I have toregister this, this one opinion.
So one of my viewers left amessage I thought was really,
really funny.
Uh, they said I wonder how manypenises have been shot off
because of this gun?
What?

Speaker 2 (24:58):
I mean it's a very valid question.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Anyone it'll come out in, uh, in discovery, you know,
yeah, yeah, yeah there's gonnabe like a little column, you
know, and it'll have, like youknow, genitalia mutilation.
Oh man, oh, how terrible.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, to get back to that, people were blaming the
chassis system, kind of whatmade this weapon what it is.
And I always argue back I'mlike that's not true, because
there's other chassis systems onthe market that don't have any
issues.
Um, my gun has a chassis systemand it never had any issues

(25:35):
with it.
But god it just.
I mean, it's a, it's a goodpointing gun.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
It shoots very well very well, velocity reasonably
long barrel you know, recoilimpulse is very good.
It's not like popping hoppingall over the place, I mean and
let's face, it is a really coollooking pistol too, like I think
it's a very, very handsomelooking gun I mean, like you
know, it looks good.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
I don't mind it I don't mind it, I do not hate it
I mean, it looks a lot better onyour battle belt than a m9.
You know, it's like that chonkygun of an m9, so yeah, but
that's that's the thing.
Like chassis is the chassissystems aren't an issue, it's,
it's the gun itself but uh, I dolike the the wilson combat grip

(26:21):
module it feels good.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Wilson combat also makes the 365 grip module as
well, and they're.
They're both great, and, andthey have a few different
versions.
This one's the one with thefull rail, but, um, they, they
have one for the m18 as well.
So what I'll do?
Um, just as full disclosure, uh, when I do attempt to.
Well, there ain't gonna be noattempt to it I think I know how

(26:43):
to induce a failure in this gunI, within a 90 percentile
protocol, I believe I can inducea failure in this gun
consistently, over and over andover.
In fact, I'll induce a failureand still hit the target.
How about that, nice?
I'll point the gun and I'll hitthat.
We'll see.
I only put the cart before thehorse, but I just will say that

(27:06):
with this particular gun in thegrip modules, I will test it
with the Wilson Combat gripmodule as well as the OG OEM
frame as well just to make surethat there's no, because if I
can induce the stoppage withboth the aftermarket frame and
the factory frame, then they'lltell us that has nothing to do
with the damn frame.
So we're eliminating somevariables, I'll start with the

(27:28):
OEM.
If I induce eliminating somevariables, I'll start with the
OEM.
If I induce the stoppage, I'llput the Wilson Combat on and see
if I can induce the issue.
So, that way we know.
In fact, I might even try toinduce the issue with the Raider
, the.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Flux Raider.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
So it uses a P320.
Yeah, I'll see if I can get theRaider to discharge.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
discharge, you're gonna get flux on my and look
that's that's not a dig.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Look, that's not a dig on ben or flux raider,
because, you know, look, um ben,just uh signed a deal with sig
to offer, you know, the, thechassis his his raider chassis
and he also does them for glocksum, I love my flux raider.
It's such a freaking great chat.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
It is awesome isn't that a great story, though?
Like he made that product andit just kind of got picked up
with, you know, the military andall.
Like I was like, okay, that'slike that rags to riches type
story.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Well, you know it's crazy.
I I wish I would have thoughtabout it.
I would have produced theletter.
I remember ben wrote me aletter early on.
He sent me a Raider and waslike hey, I want you to check
this out.
He had just mentioned hey, I'vebeen watching your stuff.
It's just so wild.
I remember I met him at SHOTShow.
He was just carpetbagging.

(28:39):
He didn't have a booth.
Look y'all, technically you'renot supposed to carpetbag at.
SHOT Show they don't allow ittechnically.
So I'm not trying to callanyone out here, but there are
people, there are vendors thatwill just bring a bag of crap to
SHOT Show and walk around andshow it to people.
They're not supposed to do that.
They don't allow carpet bagging.
But I remember he walked up tome and showed me he's like what

(29:01):
do you think about this?
Wow, man, it's really cool and Ilove that type of story where
someone has an idea and they seeit through and they see it to
fruition and it produces forthem.
I admire that.
I love American ingenuityNothing finer.
And Dan is a great guy.
I love the Raider.
I think it's a fantastic setup.

(29:22):
I have a B&T USWG with a Glock17L and that gun's fantastic.
I love it.
So for glock, if I'm gettingthe, the pcc treatment for the
glock, I kind of prefer the, thebnt for that glock 17l.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
I was gonna say you got the long slide and then I do
the raider.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
but if, if, I am going to run a Sig, you better
believe that that Raider isfantastic.
So make no mistake, I love theplatform.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
And real quick.
Just on the carpet baggingthing, it's not that you can't
afford a booth at SHOT Show,it's that the seniority doesn't
allow you to get where the mainpeople are.
So it could have been been verywell like, hey, you can afford
a booth, but you just can't geta booth.

(30:18):
They'll put you down in thebasement, in the dungeon, where
you just don't get as much foottraffic.
And for those that don't knowhow it works, you have to kind
of pay your dues in the dungeonof shot show and work your way
out.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
But a lot of times the innovation is in the dungeon
.
Now, you do find someinnovative stuff in the dungeon,
yeah, and honestly, if, ifsomeone was going to go to shot
show and let's say they onlyhave one day to spend, which is
hard because there's a lot ofground to cover personally is it
two places that you'd want togo?

(30:54):
in my opinion and this is just,we're getting off subject a
little, but I'll just it's apodcast to piggyback on what
you're saying, that the lawenforcement section, with all
the cool grenade launchers andmachine guns and less and lethal
and shields and riot shields, II always find that to be
fascinating.
I like that just to see what'sout there.
And I like the dungeon.

(31:14):
Yeah, those are the two areas Ilike the most, because you see
so much interesting stuff.
I remember the year that I metthe guys at Royal Tiger imports
and they had that reloadableflashbang, which was a big deal.
You know, when it was made ithad this um, spring-loaded
firing pins like a plunger thathad a springiness to it and when
it hit in a certain way itwould.

(31:34):
It was set off, yeah, and youjust loaded like a shotgun blank
in it.
It's a reloadable flashback.
I remember they sent me a video, uh, sent me the unit to do a
video on, and they're like, well, we have to have it back though
, because, uh, I guess they're aDD or something.
There's some stipulation as towhy they couldn't really have it

(31:54):
out there that much, but Ithought that was such a clever
thing that they had a reloadableflashback.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, like a reusable one.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah, what a great way to save waste versus.
You know if we're talking asmoke grenade and this is a real
DM-18, by, by the way, don'task how I got it.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
I will never tell which is a shame that they
consider that a dd, but yeah,it's a smoke grenade right.
It is an inert one by the way,it's not a real functional one.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
But if this thing were used, I I wonder if I could
just set this off in thebasement right now.
I mean, holy crap, dude, thatwould suck, that would suck.
And this is yellow too.
That's the worst one.
But when you use a smokegrenade, that's it.
I mean one use One done.
But I think that's smart.
If I have unit replacementcosts to run a reloadable

(32:46):
flashbang, that that's, that'snext level, that's great that
reminds me of a funny story.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Man, we're at the mount site at stewart and you
know, I remember, do youremember?
It was all concrete buildingsand like the, it was all like
concrete driveways, and likeyou're running around on
concrete into the buildings andwe're we're practicing, you know
, room clearing and clearingbuildings, yeah, well, well, we
had smoke grenades and I had tothrow a smoke grenade to cover

(33:13):
our movement to go from onebuilding to another.
And I remember the cadre saidhey, make sure you throw the
smoke grenade in the grass.
And I threw it and I missed andI hit the concrete and I rolled
on the concrete and I didn'trealize why he wanted me to
throw it in the grass because itwas purple.

(33:33):
It was a purple smoke grenadeand it just like started
blasting out purple smoke, whichwe were like okay, cool.
But when it stopped there waslike purple burnt smoke all over
.
They were so pissed.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Oh yeah, they were so pissed.
Yeah, they're not happy.
Someone's got to break thepressure washer out, somebody
had to come out there and clean.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
It wasn't us, but somebody had to clean that.
They were like super pissed.
It's so funny how down atstewart.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
They used to always give us so much crap about the
slit latrines like so whenyou're out in like these random
rural places on on militaryposts, like they don't have
plumbing, a lot of times they'rejust the, they're latrines,
they're, you know, wooden, metalor sometimes concrete, usually
just like a metal tin sort ofbuilding.
We're just like universalshitters in there that and

(34:24):
basically it's an over glorifiedouthouse.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
It's like a piece of wood with a with a tub
underneath.
Yeah Well, not eventhat-glorified outhouse, it's
like a piece of wood with a tubunderneath.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah Well, not even that, Just a hole in the ground.
And once they get really full,they just bring the little poop
truck out there and they cleanthem out from time to time.
And I remember one time theywere like yeah, don't throw.
MRE bags in there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And he said because it clogs upthe little poop sucker thing

(34:52):
and and and they were.
They wanted to make it soadamant that you, you don't
throw mre bags and plastic andthings, because they were so
worried about the little pooptruck man getting his little
hose clogged up that they had to, you know, spend 10 minutes
talking about why you don'tthrow it in there.
And it's just, it's just sofunny you think that, like, who
does that?
yeah joe will oh, yeah, yeah youknow, and there's no telling,

(35:16):
and uh, anyway, not to divulgetoo far down this rabbit hole,
but I remember, uh, I was atfort benning and this is when I
was doing basic training, wayback when and uh, I remember we
were out at a, uh, a, I believeit was the moving target range
where they have the.
They have the, the little popup, and you know, no one can

(35:37):
ever hit the damn thing.
So like, yeah, I mean you mightI don't think they work man
like at 100 meters?
you can probably, but you knowthey have one is 300 yards.
You know damn well we can hitthose things yeah so, anyway,
the moving target range, yep,and it hadn't been used in
months.
All right, we were the firstcycle to use it after a long
hiatus of it not being used justbecause they weren't doing

(35:59):
rifle training at that time ofthe year, whatever, anyway.
And I remember one of the guysopened the door to the latrine
to go in and, I kid you not,this snake came out of the
latrine.
I swear to god, this was eightfeet long I don't know none of
us stopped long enough to lookat at him or take.

(36:21):
You know we couldn't takepictures and none of us had our
phones on us, but but I tell youthat some bitch looked like a
freaking radiator hose justpumping along and and it's like
he never ended.
It was just he's like holy crap, that's the biggest freaking.
I think it was a giant kingsnake, I think it was the
biggest snake I've ever seen.
Holy cow, and whatever he waseating in that latrine he had a

(36:42):
lot of it, let's put it that waybut he was in there chilling in
the shade, I guess, and he, uh,he didn't have a care in the
world that that guy opened thatdoor.
He just came out like he wasinvited and he didn't mind us
one bit.
He just slithered on out andwent about his way and we all
just kind of looked each otherlike damn and of course you know
the first person to sit downyeah, dude, I'm like nobody on

(37:03):
the toilet.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
No one's doing that.
What else is in?

Speaker 1 (37:06):
there what is is going to come up and bite my ass
.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
You know so anyway, interesting story.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
So we're going to roll back a little bit here.
This is a part of the showwhere we'll always either do
some show and tell or somethingkind of fun.
So some of you may rememberwhen we used to do our fight or
flight episodes here on LOPwhere we would take a bunch of
food items and just testeverything out.
We've done like hot peppersbefore.

(37:34):
We've done all sorts ofdifferent alcohol and libations
and things like that.
You know the pepper one was fun.
We did the one chip challenge.
So sometimes we just eat randomthings and discuss it.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
That was not fun.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
No, and it's crazy, you dude.
You were suffering big time anddon't get me wrong, it's
freaking hot, but I don't knowlike my scale for hot.
It just didn't really bother methat much.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
And then we did what the ghost pepper yeah, the dried
peppers, something man, I'mlike I was.
Yeah, I was not happy, I wasnot good anyway, I digress.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Today we're gonna do just a super little quick mini
flight.
I know some of you probablyheard about this Dubai chocolate
.
All right, everyone's talkingabout this Dubai chocolate.
All right, what is so specialabout it?
What is it?
What does it taste like?
Is it any good?
One of the most notable reasons, I suppose, that people talk
about this freaking chocolateNow, look, these guys aren't

(38:29):
paying us to talk about thischocolate.
I just thought it'd beinteresting to you know to talk
about, because it's cool, youknow, and it's kind of famous
right now.
It's like a $15 bar ofchocolate.
Ok, so you're talking a $15chocolate bar.
That ain't no Hershey's.
Now, it's a very expensive barof chocolate.
Is it worth the $15?

(38:49):
Is it all that great?
You know, we're going to findout.
We're going to find out.
It's made in Turkey.
It's Turkish, it is.
Yep so it's got All right.
What do we see on the labelthere?

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Pistachios.
Yep, it's a nice, nice goldregal.
Not just a label, but like awhole case.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
It is fancy.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
It is beholden to the name of Dubai.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Want to try it?
Yes, crack a rope.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Nice little case.
This is a non-GMO, so they'retrying to be all nice and fancy.
Milk chocolate with kadayif andpistachio cream.
We shall see you.
Never had it, never had it,never had it.
I remember you asked me.
I was like nope, never had it.

(39:35):
He was like all right.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Full disclosure.
I've had it.
I didn't feel my initialreaction when I first tried it.
That seems to be a thing now.
People want to film theirreaction.
What a clever marketingscheme's like oh, let me take
something really common andcharge a lot of money for it,
and then people will film thereaction to justify why they

(39:57):
spent all the money on thereally common item.
But what we want to discernhere is is it a 15 bar of
chocolate?

Speaker 2 (40:05):
well, I mean they're doing a good job with the
packaging.
It came in a nice cardboardpackage like the nice gold foil.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah it's got the golden ticket vibe willy wonka
definitely now what would a?

Speaker 2 (40:15):
turkish willy wonka look like I don't know, but his
name wouldn't be willy wonka.
No, it'd be.
Uh well, I'm not gonna go downthat road.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, let's not go there.
I'm gonna get in trouble.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Let's not go there all right, let's to get in
trouble, let's not go there Allright.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Let's see if I can get this thing open.
I think you're going to besurprised at the consistency of
this chocolate.

Speaker 2 (40:34):
All right, I want you to make note of that.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
When you open it, when you touch it for the first
time, you're going to be likeit's definitely like soft.
So it's got like a filling, anougat filling.
Yeah, Break you off a piece son.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
All right, let's see here.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Yeah, just tear a piece off, you're good.
All right, so I'm going to take.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
It's broken up into four sections.
Show them what it looks like.
So it looks like this.
So it's got four sections in it.
I'm going to take the bottomsection.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Oh, it's got like a nice little filling in there.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Here you go.
I'm going to pass this over toyou, Eric.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
There you go, I got it All right.
You don't ever have to freaking.
Convince me to use somechocolate, all right.
All right, I'll grab the otherpiece.
Wow, and what I always thoughtis so strange is the consistency
of this chocolate.
Yeah, it's very soft, but notmelt in your hand.
Yeah, like it doesn't Go aheadyeah.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Okay, okay, let it marinate.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Let it marinate.
All right, I'm going to take abite.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Damn son.
I mean not going to lie.
What's your initial thoughts?
It?
was very good, like what aresome things that come to mind it
reminds me of like a baklava,like a Lebanese baklava, or like
a truffle.
So for me I get like the phyllodough.

(42:15):
It's like a phyllo dough withlike nuts creamy.
It has like that honey flavorand you can definitely tell they
put a little bit of honey inthere.
It's got a good consistency.
It's almost like a Rice ricecrispy treat kind of crunch to
it.
The filling, the chocolate, isvery good.
It's not like super sweetthough, which I like.

(42:38):
Like I'm not a huge fan of likesweets and my it's like it's
really good.
It's not super sweet at all.
It's got a good mouthfeel, likeit still feels like it has some
substance to it.
It's satiating, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
You notice that, like it's kind of filling.
I would agree you get that vibethat it's like if it were just
a plain chocolate bar, itwouldn't have, it, wouldn't hit
the same.
Like it's kind of filling likeit makes you feel full right.
I wonder if that's for thepistachio.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
That's in there.
I was gonna say like I wouldn'teat more than one piece, like
one little section, like I'mgonna finish this and I would
feel that's great with somecoffee afterwards, like that's a
very satisfying feel to it,like you don't need to eat the
whole thing, could you?
Yes, yes, you could yeah, doyou feel like?

(43:30):
Do you feel the urge to finishthe whole thing?
Not really all right, anycomplaints?
No man, it was good, it's, it'svery good.
I got one more little pieceleft have at it.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Son, don't be shy, get in there I mean it is, I
mean 15.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
I wouldn't be mad like I would not be upset paying
.
I think that's worth the 15yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
So like, if you're a chocolate person and you just
like you just love a bar ofchocolate, it's kind of beyond
that, though it's like a it'slike a, a completely different
vibe than just a bar ofchocolate, though this is not
something that you would eat inone sitting.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, you know it's like I'm not saying it's on the
same level as like wagyu beef orkobe beef, but it's moderation
is key.
Like you're not gonna eat likea freaking 32 ounce you know
wagyu steak.
Like you're gonna eat a smallyou well, it is best, like

(44:39):
moderation, to get yourself anice little piece eat it enjoy
it.
Could you eat a 32 ounce wagyu?
Yes, is that the normal portionsize?
No, um, so if I was to spend 15on this and I ate it over the
course of two or three days,like one little section, like

(45:01):
every day, yeah, no problem.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
If I brought this home and immediately just shoved
the whole fricking bar in mymouth and like 15 bucks gone in,
you know 30 seconds.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
You don't do that.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Okay, oh man, all right.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
No, any complaints.
I would say my initial reaction.
It's very good chocolate I got.
I got no problem with it as adelicacy um I kind of feel like
I would love to have this, likewhen I'm out hiking or something
.
You know.
Have a little piece of it.
Just it's very satiating.
Even a small piece is verysatiating.

(45:40):
But the problem is, you know,dang well, if it's not going to
travel, well, oh no, it's soft.
You know it's going to get allooey gooey from the heat.
So I mean, that's really anychocolate.
I'm not saying this is it makesthis, this chocolate, unique to
melting?
But it does have that meltysort of vibe to it, I mean, even
here at room temperature it'salready a little soft and gooey.

(46:03):
I would imagine a slight raisein the temperature would
probably this will not travelvery well yeah no, I agree.
That would be really.
My literally only complaint isthat I can't take it with me
when I hike or something.
But beyond that, damn if itisn't good.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
It is very good and I'm glad this was my first shot,
my first time eating dubaichocolate with you guys, our,
our listeners and our viewers.
It's kind of a meme.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Like you know, everyone's all about it.
So, uh, before we get back intothe show on, uh, the intended
subject matter, I do want togive a a quick shout out to the
new merch uh store that we'vegot set up, based and Mad.
I mentioned it in last week'sepisode but I'll just kind of
mention it.
The based part is hey, we knowwhat it means to be based.

(46:47):
You've probably seen the magnetback here We've got cups, we've
got hats, we've got all kindsof shirts.
Here we've got the RhodesianArmy um army ad, which is a
pretty cool there and uh, basedin mad it's.
It's kind of a lifestyle brand.
It's.
It's a lifestyle brand forpeople who are absolutely fed up

(47:08):
with the crap and uh and have a, you know, unapologetic view of
freedom and their own intuitionand, you know, seeking the
truth and all things that theysee in life.
So you know it's not an unknownthing that I've been very vocal
on a lot of different subjectsand you know it's been very

(47:31):
tough.
I've been canceled, I've beendragged through the mud.
You know people try to censorme and cancel me left and right.
So I really came up with thisbrand overall as a way for
people to show their support forpeople that aren't afraid to
draw outside the lines, andthat's really what it would be
about.
So pick you up a mug, a hat, ashirt, show your support, and

(47:54):
it's a good way to support myefforts and get something cool
in the process.
So check it out, bastinmadcom.
Get yourself a Based in Mad mug.
Show everybody how damn basedin mad you are.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Send in the pictures.
You may wind up on the show.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Send me a picture and you might wind up on the
freaking show.
Make it as offensive aspossible.
We aim to offend.
We want to make borderlineunwearable t-shirts, but only
borderline.
I promise you can still wearthem and maybe you won't get an
altercation with somebody at thegas station.
But, hey, if you do, maybethat's your vibe, you know

(48:29):
that's fine too, but anyway.
So let's talk a little bit.
I know we really spent a lot oftime talking about Sig.
We've got a few minutes left inthe show.
I kind of want to get back tothat subject for a minute.
I want to make it clear that Iwould never try to go out of my
way to talk crap about a company.
I mean, if you look at Sigholistically over everything

(48:51):
they've ever made and judge acompany on that, okay, yeah, a
fluke of a product Now, granted,a hell of a fluke, because
that's a very big mistake.
But I think overall,holistically, they've put out
some very good products over theyears.
I have no problem with SIG.
I know it's sort of the popularthing to do is to talk trash
about SIG, because you knowthat's what the Internet does

(49:14):
when there's blood in the water.
The Second Amendment communityloves to circle like sharks and
they love that blood in thewater.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
They do.
Unfortunately, the SecondAmendment community loves to
circle like sharks and they lovethat blood in the water and
they love that drama and theylove it all.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Now, are there merited reasons for that blood
to be in the water?
There are, and they're going tohave to come to terms with how
they're going to sort out thatPR issue on their point, whether
it's going to be correcting thepistols, paying out lawsuits or
whatever in between.
It could be any number ofsolutions that they're going to
have to come up with.
Let's get away from that for amoment and just talk a little

(49:45):
bit about quality control and QCin the 2A community or in the
gun world, let's just say themanufacturing world as it
pertains to firearms.
Have there been othersituations where QC has been,
let's just say, not a majorissue, but an issue, a point of
contention that must beconsidered?
Now I'm not trying to shine thelight towards another company

(50:08):
just to take the heat off SIG.
I'm just saying there aresituations like the Hudson.
Okay, the Hudson 9,.
All right, daniel Defensebought the Hudson and now they
make you know they essentiallyhave their version of that gun
that Daniel Defense has theirown pistol now, yep, it's a
modified version of the Hudson.
What do they do?
They took the known issues withthe Hudson and they fixed it

(50:30):
right, the new Daniels are great.
Okay, it is not even really thesame gun anymore.
I mean, it's a shadow of whatit used to be.
But the old Hudson had somebarrel issues and a few teething
problems.
The original engineer of thegun was a brilliant guy.
He built a really cool gun andI think people really wanted to
like it and they wanted tosupport this guy because he was

(50:51):
a veteran.
Again, I have never made avideo where I took a crap on the
Hudson, even though the gunswere giving some issues,
primarily really bad accuracy.
They were having some accuracyissues, not so much issue of
functionality.
They were perfectly functional,just wasn't quite there.

(51:11):
There were just a few thingsthat needed some tweaking and,
for whatever way, shape or form,maybe the original engineer
just was not prepared to fix theproblems.
I'm not going to get into that.
I don't not even.
That's above my pay grade.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Point is.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Marty came in, made him an offer and now it's now
it's a Daniel Defense product.
What do you think he's going todo with it?
He's going to go through andpick it apart with a fine tooth
comb.
He's going to fix the issuesand it's going to be something
worthy of the annual defensename.
You know, again, are thereissues where products have
failed to deliver?
There are the Hudson, I mean.

(51:47):
That's one example, you know.
I'm sure I can think of someothers, you know, if you think
about long enough, I mean.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
One that comes to mind is Remington.
They had the issue with theRemington 700 actions and that
was a big thing with themilitary.
That was a big thing with themilitary, because all of their
M24 sniper rifles were basicallyfiring.
Think about how many.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Remington 700s have been made over the years.
Think about how long theRemington 700 has been a model
designation for Remington A verylong time.
It's not like it's anything newthat gun has been around model
designation for.
Remington.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
A very long time it's not like it's anything new.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
That gun has been around a long time in various
ways, shapes or forms.
So you have some 700s that gotout and have an issue
discharging or something.
Does that mean that Remingtongets a pass?
I mean, if they corrected theissue, sure.
I mean, how many Remington 700sare perfectly functional 50

(52:45):
years later and have never had aproblem never will versus the
ones that actually made it outthat, okay, had a SEER
engagement problem or it couldbe an issue with the stock
clearance.
Maybe they used someone'saftermarket stock and didn't
realize that there was something, you know, not coming into
contact.
Now they should know thesethings before they send the gun
out the door.
But how do we know that therewasn't some minor fitment issue

(53:07):
that, oh, it was pushing on thesear or it was doing this or
doing so?
There's always going to be,like you know, when a company
partners OEM with anothercompany, you know, like, for
instance, when we look at Benwith the Flux Raider and then
being able to buy a Flux RaiderSIG package directly from SIG,
right, that means that SIG isputting their name on his

(53:28):
product and he's putting SIG'sname on his product, that they
are saying, hey, our productsare one in the same Right.
Yes, on an OEM level, companieswill purchase components from a
major brand and then integratethem into their guns.
Ruger's done it.
You could buy the ATI stockRuger 1022s direct from Ruger.

(53:50):
They take the ATI stock, theyinstall Ruger 1022 in it boom,
they send it out the door.
It goes to the retailer.
This makes the process easier.
A customer doesn't have to buyaftermarket stock.
They can simply buy Ruger 1022with an ATI stock already
installed.
Same thing with Magpul.
Right, ruger has a 1022 Magpulkit.
You buy the Magpul 1022 readyto go directly from them are not

(54:16):
a mysterious, unknown thing.
They happen all the time.
There are plenty of situationswhere companies will integrate
the products of other companiesinto their product at an OEM
level where, hey, you're buyingit from us, you're buying it
direct from us and it haswhatever widget installed.
And hey, we're saying that thisis a quality component that
we're willing to put our name on, just like they're willing to

(54:37):
partner with us.
So there's a lot of strategicpartnerships that go on in that
type of regard.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
That's a good example .
Sometimes it can not work outthat well, like in this
particular case.
You know, I know that Fluxdoesn't have any issues, but
being attached to the SIG namenow might raise some eyebrows
for people in the future.
If they're cause, you can buyjust the you can buy.
I don't know about the Raider,but you can buy a Flux product

(55:06):
on its own.
I don't know if you can buy aRaider on its own.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Yeah, you can buy just the, just the Raider.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Okay, I didn't know if there was like a backlog of
you know a wait list, cause Iknow for a long time he had a
wait list for for a couple ofhis products.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
So I do want to give a shout out as well to our
friends at Dark Mountain Arms.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with Dark Mountain.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Not off the top of my head.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Yeah, they make these like crazy little compact bolt
action pistols.
Okay.
That are like kind of like asurvival rifle.
Okay, right, so they have onein 5.7 by 28 and they have one
in 22.
Now they're, from what I hear,they're working on one in 45 acp
.
So the idea is you could havelike a suppressed 45 acp little
compact bolt action rifle, thatsort of thing, you know.

(55:52):
But they make these little likecompact survival uh guns right
and um, I just think that's aninnovative thing you know, what
I mean.
I just want to I an innovativething.
You know what I mean.
I just want to.
I want to mention that.
You know.
It seems that there's so muchlack of innovation in the
firearms world and sometimeswe're jaded that we throw so
much shade against a productlike the H9, right, the Hudson,

(56:13):
go back to the Hudson.
Everyone throws so much shadeon it because it didn't work the
way that they really wanted itto out the gate.
Hello, are you designinganything new?
I don't see you making anythingnew.
Everyone just wants to copyeverybody else's stuff.
Ruger just made a copy of theGlock.
Essentially, everybody did that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
That Gen 3?

Speaker 1 (56:33):
No one's got any right to complain about
something working or not workingwhen they're not the ones with
putting the blood, sweat andtears and putting in the sweat
equity to make something new?

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Well, that, and a lot of people don't realize how
difficult it is to design orcreate something.
Because I remember there wasthis project that we had to do
when I was in school and it wasa system of levers.
So you had like six or sevenlevers that you had to pull, but

(57:04):
you had to pull them in acertain order to create, to, to
complete the, the project,complete the puzzle, and every
time you would pull one,something it would cause a
reaction.
There was never a point in timewhere you pulled a lever to fix
something that something elsedidn't change.
So imagine the guy that'sdesigning the H9, like the

(57:28):
engineer, every time he tried tofix something, something else
would change.
That's just the nature of thebeast, especially when you're
creating something, when'reconcepting something, something
as simple as oh, I need tocreate a little bit of clearance
for the barrel, so it's notlike right up against the, the
frame.
I'm not like harmonics are, I'mmessing up the harmonics.

(57:49):
You change that one littlething, something else changes,
and now you've created anotherproblem.
So is this this ever ongoingissue of like pulling levers and
other levers, moving until youfind that perfect, that perfect
setting where everything works?
It is difficult, um, especiallyif you're a smaller company and

(58:10):
you don't have, you know,millions of dollars to throw at
a project, yeah, and you don'thave the time.
Like you're invested, likethat's another thing.
You, you're in a lot of thesesmaller companies, they've
mortgaged their house, they'vetaken out loans.
Like I don't want to say, oh,you're on a time crunch, but at
the same time, you don't haveyou know years to figure this

(58:33):
out like you need it now.
So, honestly, him being boughtout by marty probably the best
thing, the best thing that everhappened to him.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
He really did have a lot at stake with that.
And uh, you know, hey, I I havenothing but respect for people
who who risk at all, cause Imean that that's really what
makes our country as beautifulplace as it is that you can,
that you can put all the chipson the table when you want to,
that you can have a dream, andyou can.
You can chase it.
And I'll just end today's show.

(59:03):
My final thoughts for the showwould be today that anyone can
make one thing work.
Well, it's it's.
It's one thing to prototypesomething and have it work
precisely the way you want it,and it's another thing to take
that item and put it into massproduction and produce it.
Manufacturing and prototypingare two different things.

(59:24):
And I think where we begin tosee a little bit of issue and
listen, I'm, I am never going tosay a damn word negative about
George Kellgren.
Okay, I love Kel-Tec.
I love.
Kel-Tec's guns.
So, quirky, but they have hadtheir share of teething issues

(59:44):
over the years.
Now they always figure it outhey, all good.
But he is such a brilliant guyand everything is so new and
groundbreaking that, of course,when you're making so many new
things that literally just cameout of that brilliant head of
his, of course there's going tobe some room for kind of playing
around to get it right.
So, um, I think sometimesthey'll, they'll throw things

(01:00:08):
into production and it's likeyou know, maybe a little little
little tweak or two might benecessary.
You know, yeah, but, um, I willtell you I, um, I will tell you
I love their gun designs.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
They're very they really do.
Yeah, I mean you want to talkabout-.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
He's a brilliant guy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
The groundbreaking design, like the shotguns, the
Kel-Tecs yeah, I mean, whenthose things first hit the
market, man, there was nothingon the market like that, just
the design itself drew people toit.
I know, did they function 100percent of the time?

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
when they first came out, they had their teething
issues, like you said, like allcaltechs yeah, my, um, my og,
ksg, my, I have an early ksg orlike one of the first 5 000 or
whatever that was put out worksfine, no problem, out of it
that's what made mini shellsfamous, if it wasn't for the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
KSG.
Nobody would give a damn aboutmini shells, that's true, that's
very true.
But as soon as you say I canhold like 30 mini shells in this
one shotgun, all of a suddeneverybody loses their minds.
Yeah, and then what?

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
did Mossberg do?
They released the 590S, Exactlythat can shoot mini shells, and
first it was a conversionadapter that allowed the mini
shells to function in the pumpaction.
Then they just made it a thingLike well, let's just make all
the 590s compatible with minishells, Because, hey, you can
increase the capacity and youknow the slugs at close range,

(01:01:36):
they still hit pretty hard.
Yeah, even though it's not afull power slug, it's still
powerful enough I mean, I can,you, can you be?

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
can you imagine being the guy at aguila and like,
overnight, you're like what inthe hell?
Why are so many people buyingthese, like boxes and boxes of
these mini shells that have beensitting here on this shelf for
probably 10 years?
And all of a sudden, you soldan entire warehouse full of mini
shells.
Right, and that's why.
Oh yeah, ksg was like let's doit yeah, I mean, why not?

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
so you can't make an omelet, boys and girls, without
cracking a few eggs.
Now, all, right, now, that'sone egg to crack, right there,
now, I you know, we'll see howit all plays out.
I just I want to make it clearthat I admire Suga as a company.
I appreciate the innovation.

(01:02:27):
And here's the thing Like Isaid, you can't make an omelet
without cracking some eggs.
Well, guess what?
You know, you're going to makea new product, right, a new
rifle, a new machine gun, likethey did that belt fed, they did
that, that, that new rifle,that the military's issuing the
new cartridge right what 277?
fury whatever they call thatthing right, I'm a little behind
on some of that stuff.

(01:02:48):
I follow it enough to know.
But you know, yeah, you'regonna make something new, you're
gonna innovate and designsomething.
It's gonna come with someteething problems here and there
, you know, and if you, ifnothing is ventured, nothing is
gained.
I just hope we can learnsomething from the process and
make a better product.
And if it's one thing that Iknow about SIG is they're going

(01:03:13):
to get to the bottom of theissue and they're going to fix
it, bottom line.
Now, how they apply that andhow it happens, how it pans out,
is yet to be seen, but I knowthey're going to fix it, I know
they have the capability to fixit, I know they have the
expertise to fix it and, dare Isay, they have the solution for
this gun already.
Hear me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
But at the same time, I don't think it should come at
the cost of anybody's life orlivelihood or anything and cost
of anybody's life or livelihoodor anything, and that that is
the absolute, you know, crusherof of the situation is that it
had to get this far.
Yeah, for, dare I say, themilitary to even acknowledge it,

(01:03:54):
because, after everything thathappened, the military, it took
someone dying for them to pullthem off, to remove them from
service, just for that unit.
Not even like, not even yeahmilitary like military wide,
imagine, that fiasco yeah sounfortunate um as it is, and
yeah hopefully, hopefully thatfamily gets gets taken care of

(01:04:15):
man, I sure hope yeah, that'llbe a real disaster right there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Yeah, I really hope they get taken care of and I
hope that whatever issue isunderlying with these guns, that
it's solved quickly.
Because you know we got our menand women have to have a way to
protect themselves.
Yep, personally, I would havewent with the Glock.
That's just me.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
People say what they want aboutGlocks.

(01:04:39):
People accuse me of being aGlock fanboy.
People accuse me of being somepaid show for Glock, like that.
The truth is I know what I can,like anything I want.
Okay, I don't have to havesomeone's permission to say tell
me what my opinion is.
My opinion is based onexperience.

(01:05:00):
Okay, tell me what my opinionis.
My opinion is based onexperience.
Okay, my experience.
My opinions are based on whatI've seen and and and
acknowledged and witnessed.
And I can count on one hand theentire time I've ever ran
Glocks, dozens and dozens ofGlocks over the years.
I can count on one hand theamount of stoppages I've seen.
I believe it.

(01:05:20):
They're just, they work.
And I'll tell you what.
Those mnps.
I love my.
I love my smith and wesson mmp.
it's such a fantastic gun, oneof the best guns I ever had I
would absolutely feel 110confident protecting my life, in
the moment of life and death,with an M&P 100%, 100%, this gun

(01:05:45):
right here.
Son, let me tell you something.
This Performance Center 9L.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
Look out, man.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Oh no, dude, that's a shooter, this is a freaking
great gun and you know, dare Isay, matt, I almost would prefer
this to my Glock.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
I mean, you got ports .
It was magna ported.
It's a good gun man.
This is a fantastic pistol, Oneof the best guns I've shot with
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
People who say what they want.
If I say that a Glock is good,if I say an M&P is good, it's
because I own the damn thing.
I've used it for years.
It's not just some conjecture.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
But at the same time, Smith Wesson has had their
issues with maybe not with theirpolymer guns, but I know they
had their issues with the wheelguns and that's something they
worked out as well.
They were just you know theythey fixed it.
That wasn't something they kindof like swept under the rug.
It was like, hey, we have someissues, let's fix it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
And that was it I think some of the first gen.
Um, what is that?
Uh like that ksg copy, more orless, that smith and wesson made
.
Uh forget what they call thatshotgun.
They had some initial littleteething issues with that gun.
Of course, smith and Wesson'shighly capable company, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Boom.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Very quick and easy to fix the issue and then move
on with life, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
But they also are really easy to work with, with
sending stuff back, like if youhave an issue, like they take
care of it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Smith and Wesson's customer service, yep, second to
none.
They are fantastic in every waywhen it comes to taking care of
their customers and I must sayI've had the same experience
with SIG.
Anytime I've had a problem witha SIG, turnarounds really quick
.
Had a problem with a CZ onetime Fast turnaround, nice.

(01:07:38):
I got well taken care of by CZ.
I got well taken care of by S.
I got well taken care of by sig.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Uh, never had to send anything back glock.
Yeah, I mean, let's just callit what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
I never had to send a glock back.
I had a mossberg one time thatI had a problem with a 590 a1
that uh, that was having somemajor issues sent it back and
they had it back to me in a weekreally fast turnaround.
Mossberg always take care of me.
So a good company.
There's a good mainstreamcompany.
They're going to be legit.
They're going to handle it.
If there's a problem, youbetter believe they want to fix

(01:08:10):
that problem.
They do not want a faulty gun,especially Daniel Defense.
If you talk to Marty he'll sayoh yeah, I'd rather give him a
whole new gun than have a DanielFins product out there that has
a problem.
They'll just replace the gun Ifit's that bad.
Of course they're going to doan internal review and figure
out what the problem is.
But if you think they're goingto put a bad gun back out, no

(01:08:33):
way.
They'd rather replace the gunthan do that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Yeah, man, I know we're talking about firearm OEMs
, but I mean, I had the greatexperience with MeproLite, just
with one of their red dots, man,yeah, like they take care of it
.
Way out of warranty.
Way out of warranty If theymade it right.
Oh yeah, 100% Because thinkabout it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
Do they really want someone out there trashing their
product?

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Yeah, what is your reputation worth to you?

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
I mean, if you're making a $400 red dot, what does
it really cost you to justreplace the damn red dot, even
if it's out of warranty?
I mean, that ounce ofprevention prevents a pound of
mishap.
And guess what?
If you ever decide to buyanother Meprolite, it won't be

(01:09:20):
an issue of oh well, I don'tknow if I can trust it.
Well, if they make it right, nomatter what, who cares if you
can trust it or not?
If price is a consideration, ifthe warranty is good, give it a
chance.
What do you have to really lose?
That's why I don't understandwhy people give Olight such a
hard time.
I know that I've been at thecenter of a lot of controversy
regarding Olight because of theamount of content that I've made
for Olight in the past.

(01:09:40):
That's fine, but again, Ialways sort of challenge people
like well, if the lights are sobad, why do they warranty them
in the way they do?
If you have a problem, they'regoing to fix it, right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
What's the big deal?
How are they still in existence, right?
Why are they still around?
Yeah, how are they still around.
How are they still in existence, right?
Why are they still around?
I mean, yeah, how are theystill around?
How are they?

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
still operating.
I don't understand what thecontroversy is.
If it's a product that's pricedreasonably and it's got a good
warranty, let them compete.
As far as I'm concerned, Idon't see any American-made
flashlight manufacturersreaching out to me and telling
me hey, beat my light up, dothis, do that.

(01:10:22):
They're like no way.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
They don't care.
Think about how many have comeand gone.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
I'm not saying they're not good good lights.
I mean, I love my surefires.
You know all, all of my, all ofmy sort of fighting rifles and
life and Liberty guns.
Yeah, I run six, 40 dual fuelson everything.
I love surefire.
Is that to say that I haven'thad an issue with a surefire end
cap going out or a bad switchSometimes?
Does it change my opinion ofsurefire?

(01:10:49):
Well, if I can't get anyone onthe phone and remedy the issue,
it's actually cheaper for me tojust go buy a new freaking
switch and not even bothertrying to go to them for
anything.
So whose company's better?
Is Olight really that bad ifthey actually respond and just
handle the problem, versus youhave to go through this glowing

(01:11:11):
bureaucracy at surefire and thenstill not even get an answer.
What's your time really worthto you at that point?
It's almost cheaper to just buythe freaking switch myself and
just change it out and throw theold one away and not even
bother trying to even contacthim for anything.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
Man surefire brings back memories.
Well, I mean, look I.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
I love surefire lights.
You know it's funny, chad.
Always you tell me the storyabout his little backup.
You know, surefire backup.
I always tell the story.
I think it's so funny and and Iknow we're going way over on
time, but that that's all right,it's our show, we can do it.
Yeah, our show.
We'll end on this note.
But uh, he lost his backup,couldn't find it.
You know, a little bitty lightone day and there's this one

(01:12:02):
area where you know the waterkind of puddles up a lot and he,
I guess, dropped it in a puddleof water.
He's mowing grass and of coursethe water had already dried up
and all he's mowing the grassand he heard a clang, just
looked over and noticed, oh,there's my backup.
He dropped it out of his pocketwhen he was mowing and this was
two or three weeks it took himweeks of that thing laying out
in the yard.
He finally found it, but youbetter believe it still worked

(01:12:23):
after being submerged and out inthe weather and getting hit by
a lawnmower.
So it's like you know, say whatyou want, but that's a
fantastic light, yeah.
And it's an industry standard.
For a reason it's a good light.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Probably he was reaching into his pocket to get
his cell phone pulled out.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
I mean, it happens, it happens.
But I think we dove into someinteresting territory on this
show and we have a lot more onthe way.
Y'all, I really appreciate youbearing with us here.
I'd love to kind of go off therails and just discuss lots of
different things.
I love the story-driving sortof idea of podcasts, like how

(01:13:00):
you can just really allow it togo any direction you want, and I
enjoy that I enjoy it too and Ithink our listeners enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
There's there's a very small uh you know group
that don't, I guess, quiteunderstand the concept of a
podcast, and but the majority ofyou guys thank you so much you
guys completely get it andunderstand what a podcast is.
It is just a story-drivenconversation.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
So, yeah, use the chapter markers if you don't,
yeah, we do have chapter markers, y'all, so you can drop around,
slide around wherever you want.
Thanks so much for tuning inMany more on the way.
Remember you can find us onStitcher, spotify, apple
Podcasts anywhere that podcastsare found.
Also on IRAC Veteran 8888, youcan find us if you want to see
our smiling mugs in video form.

(01:13:49):
Here we are for your amusementand perhaps scrutiny.
Yes, whatever you want to dothere, but we are on YouTube as
well, so thanks so much fortuning in Many more podcasts on
the way.
We'll see you guys next weekEvery Monday, 9 o'clock,
theoretically, if I remember toupload the show on time, but
yeah we post every Monday, 9 amEastern Standard.

(01:14:12):
Have a good one.
Bye everybody.
Thanks for listening to Life,liberty and Pursuit.
If you enjoyed the show, besure to subscribe on Apple
Podcasts, spotify and anywhereelse podcasts are found.
Be sure to leave us a five-starreview.
We'd really appreciate that youcan support us over on
Ballistic Inc by pickingyourself up some merch and
remember, guys, dangerousfreedom.

(01:14:32):
Have a good one.