March 11, 2025 • 58 mins
In this exciting episode of Life on Mars, Alex have a great conversation with Simone van Neerven, founder of reBel.la, to explore how challenging the status quo can drive creativity and change. With a career that began at KLM and evolved into building her own brand, Simone shares her personal journey—from corporate life to embracing her rebellious spirit—and how it’s helped her break barriers and inspire others.
Through honest stories and sharp insights, Simone highlights the powerful role rebels play in driving innovation within companies. She emphasizes the value of building community, fostering collaboration, and embracing individuality to spark new ideas.
This conversation goes beyond theory—it’s a practical guide to finding and embracing your inner rebel, even in environments that resist change. Simone offers actionable advice for anyone looking to challenge corporate norms and create space for bold, fresh thinking.
Whether you're feeling boxed in by traditional systems or just curious about how rebellion can fuel innovation, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical takeaways.
Tune in, and discover how embracing your unique perspective can unlock new possibilities.
🎬 You can watch the video of this episode on the Life on Mars podcast website: https://podcast.marsbased.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to Life on Mars.
I'm Alex, ceo and founder ofMarsBase, and in this episode
I'm joined by Simone van Nierpen, the founder of Rebella, a
company bringing innovation torebellious attitude, around
which she has created her ownpersonal branding and how being
(00:27):
rebellious in corporateenvironments can pay off very,
very big dividends if you havethe right attitude.
So, without further ado, let'sjump right into this episode.
Welcome, simone.
How are you doing Good toreconnect?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yes, good to see you again.
I'm doing well over here inAmsterdam.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Great.
It's funny that we I think it'skind of coincidental that we
connected for the event, theCorporate Innovation Summit we
put together in March 2020 orlate February 2020, right before
COVID hit.
It was on the evening ofsupposedly, there had to be
(01:14):
Mobile World Congress, but itgot canceled.
That year, however, a few of usdecided we were going to
continue with our events.
There was a text period, therewas our event In hindsight not
the most brilliant idea, but thefeeling of community that we
got in those trying times wasvery intense, but that was right
(01:35):
away.
You left Barcelona, so are youmissing Barcelona at all in our
ecosystem?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, I miss Barcelona a lot, and not only
because of the nice atmosphere,but also I had such a great team
over there.
So I miss my team and I alsomiss like.
It was like a small communityand everybody knew each other,
and the difference betweenAmsterdam and Barcelona is, I
(02:02):
think people here are more Idon't know how to say that more
closed, while in Barcelona it'slike, hey, join, and if you know
someone else, bring them along,and it's more free, and I
really love that.
There was a lot of serendipitygoing on and I think that's also
one of the reasons how we metand I met within a couple of the
(02:24):
reasons how we met and I metwithin a couple of months.
Living in Barcelona, I think Iknew a lot of people in the
innovation space over there.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Two more coincidences that today we woke up to the
news that our venue for thisyear's Corporate Innovation
Summit had been Our contract wascanceled single-handedly by the
venue, which is prettydisastrous news to wake up to.
Yeah, fortunately we've got abackup, but this is the fourth
edition of that event.
(02:52):
The other coincidence that youmight not be aware of is because
I got to know you in that event.
I kind of like dug deeper intowhat Vueling does in technology,
and so I started meeting peopleat Vueling.
And now we're into what Vuelingdoes in technology, and so he
started meeting people atVueling and now we're providers
of Vueling.
Vueling is our client.
We signed Vueling last year butwe started meeting people and
(03:13):
then I was fascinated by all thethings going on, which is kind
of strange considering the shitwebsite and the terrible
experience that Vueling has.
But the things that they investin technology and innovation
are pretty impressive.
So don't worry, you will notget in trouble, Only me.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, I know it's interesting because before I did
my assignment at Voiling, Iworked a long time for KLM and
then everybody was like, oh, klm, but Voiling was and is much
more innovative and because theyalso still well.
When I was like, oh, klm, butVuelingen was and is much more
innovative and because they alsostill well when I was there I
(03:52):
don't know now five years later,but they had really like this
startup mindset still and what Idid with my team I don't know
if you, I have lots of storiesthere, but my assignment was for
two years so I decided that Ineeded to push and if I didn't
get any pushback I wasn't doinga good job.
So I tried to dwell on the edgeand see, okay, how far can we
(04:15):
go?
I had like a secret developersteam in Valencia, so that was
sort of like outside of theorganization, so we could very
quickly build prototypes andinvestigate new technologies and
innovations and they could helpus a lot without being bothered
by this headquarter, legalstuff and all that kind of thing
(04:40):
.
So that was nice.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
That's something that's still there.
I think we work for theinnovation department and they
move pretty fast, consideringit's a corporation, right, and
considering it's within.
You know the main holding andthis intricate relationship of
all like the big brands of thegroup and whatnot, but I find it
very surprising that they werelike you guys choose your
technologies, you guys chooseyour methodology, you're allowed
(05:05):
to do 100%, whatever the fuckyou want to do.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Which doesn't happen like this in corporate.
So so far we're very happy, andso I can.
I can attest to what you'resaying.
It's still.
It's still holding truenowadays.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, and it's, so.
I reported to Jorge Sacco.
He's the CFO of Willing.
And yeah, and so I reported toJorge Sacco.
He's the CFO of Willing and Ithink he's still there and,
unlike many other CFOs, he wasvery visionary and he was very
open to investing in new thingsand trying things out, so that
was very helpful too, and maybethat's also one of the reasons
(05:41):
why this vibe is still there.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So, yeah, so you mentioned the thing about the
pushback.
Was it a good assist, a goodsegue to get into what you're
doing right now?
The Revelleus actually that youthink brings innovation Was it
a plot, so I've always been arebel.
But now I dare to show it more.
(06:03):
That's your brand.
How did that come to be?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
first of all, yeah, um, it's it.
So when I quit my job at klmseven years ago, um, that was
because I was approached for bywelling for their head of
innovation position, and I saidI don't want to do it if I.
And how do you say that?
If I, if you give me apermanent contract so you can
(06:30):
hire me as a freelance or umyeah and then we negotiate a
little bit and then they said,yeah, okay, let's do that.
And I was like shit.
Now I have to uh to how do yousay that?
To build my brand or to go tothis government here in holland?
To how do you I don't know howyou call that, but you have to
have your um chamber of commerceor something.
(06:52):
Your yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Chamber of color yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
so shit, I need a name.
And then I I asked some friendsand, uh, I popped some ideas
and everybody liked rubella themost.
It's from Rebel and Bella andthis combination.
And then I was like, okay,let's do it.
And that's how the name wasborn.
But if I look back at my youthand everything, I've always been
(07:17):
quite rebellious, so I think itwas unconscious or subconscious
choice.
And now I dare also to build itbigger.
And the reason why I say I dareto?
Because with this Rebella nameI also push clients away Because
(07:42):
they're like we don't needrebels and we don't need
anything of that, so let's notgo there.
But for me I'm like, hey, ifclients don't want to work with
me because of this name, we arenot a good match in the first
place.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I don't know if I'm crossing a line here, but
rebellion doesn't come fromplaces of comfort or from
upbringings of, you know,environments of abundance, and
so I've always been prettyrebellious myself.
Uh, that's why we have thissort of symphony going on.
But because my family had camefrom a very I wouldn't say poor,
(08:21):
but like modest, humble,working class background, right,
we had very little to live withand I had to kind of like fight
my way through, you know,divorced parents, like living
off subsidies from the state andstuff like that.
I'm also left-handed, so I'vegot, I had like all the
constraints in the world, jokesaside, but that maybe brought me
(08:44):
to certain cultural tribes,right, even though I never kind
of like associated with any ofthem a hundred percent, because
back then you know there wouldbe like, oh, the skinheads, the
metalheads, the whatever, likethis and that.
And uh, I've always beenrebellious through music.
For instance.
And for me, certain music likepunk, rock and metal spoke to me
(09:04):
because it was rebellious.
I don't know if you had somesort of connection to music at
all, or is it just only business?
I don't know in your case.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
No, it's also the way I live.
When I was 13 years old, I saidto my parents I don't want to
have children.
And they're like, yeah sure,you're 30 years old, but I
already deeply knew inside thatI didn't want that.
But it's not a choice.
Many people don't make thiskind of choice at that age, and
(09:40):
it was against how do you saythat?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Establishment, yeah, establishment, tradition, even
yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So my parents are also from working class and my
grandparents had a farm andwhenever I wanted something to
buy, something like a stereo orwhatever my parents said, good,
great idea, go I, go at work andearn your own money and then
buy whatever you want.
So so I also learned a lot towork really hard and not to give
(10:07):
up.
And in my upbringing, I thinkwhat is also very
transformational for me iseverybody always said ah, you're
a girl, so don't leave it anddon't bother that much.
And why, why are you trying sohard and just leave it?
And I was like leave it, fuckit.
(10:27):
And so I I have like a strong,deep urge to maybe to prove
myself or to show the world thatI, um, I can do stuff, and
that's also a big driver for me,um, and maybe, yeah, a small, a
short story, because it's a funstory, but also it shows that
(10:51):
I'm passionate about like thisfemale male thing, because I
experience as a female sometimesthat I'm treated differently.
So when I was four years old, wewere in kindergarten I don't
know how you say that in Spanish, but like preschool right and
then in Holland we don't havethe Christmas, we don't have
(11:14):
Santa Claus at Christmas, but wehave Sinterklaas, which is at
December 5th.
Similar guy whatever, he alsogives presents.
So he came to the kindergartenschool and he had presents for
everyone.
So he had for the boys he had atoy truck and for the girls he
had a doll and yeah I have been.
(11:35):
I screamed for a very long timeuntil I got this toy truck
because I really want.
I didn't want to have the dolland so.
So I think I was already like,yeah, I don't know pushing the
limits fighting against.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, fighting against the establishment.
Finally, when I was a kid, Iwas always playing with dolls
myself, so we should havechanged places.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, but probably I don't know if in your case, like
in my case, when I grew up, Istarted working, you know, even
though you have yourpreconceptions and you can be as
rebellious as you want insociety, you know, going to I
remember going to the traditionsor what you read on the news
(12:27):
what is passed on is at work.
You don't discuss politics, youdon't discuss.
You know, no football, nopolitics, no religion, stuff
like that, so that.
And back then you couldn't belike left wing, at least in
Spain, right, the zeitgeist wasanother and so for me it was
(13:03):
pretty shocking.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I had to bite my tongue pretty often when I was
at.
I started at Deloitte, like themost corporate environment.
So how did you manage theinternal frustration of having
to bite your tongue?
If you had to, I'm assuming youhad to in your corporate years.
Yeah, so it's funny, right,because in the time that I
graduated from university it wasnormal to go to a large
corporate, right?
But today it's very cool to goand build your own startup.
So I wish I was born like 20years later, because I think I'm
(13:37):
much more like an entrepreneurthan someone who fits in the
corporate culture.
So what happened is I startedwith first the Royal Dutch Mail
Company, which is a hugecorporate, and then after two
years, I switched to KLM.
So I have been at KLM for like16 years and it's interesting
because you already see on theuniforms how important someone
(13:57):
is the more stripes, the moreimportant.
So it was a very hierarchicalorganization and there I was.
I was like fuck hierarchy, andif I have an idea, I'm going to
do it.
And so, yes, I had to bite offmy tongue quite often.
On the other hand, I also builtor created my own job five or
six times just out of nothing.
(14:18):
Then I had my normal job andthen I saw some things that were
not going well, or I had anidea, and then I was like, oh,
maybe we can do something withthat.
And then it started to work out, and then they made it my job
and then I got bored again andthen the same happened.
So, um, although so what?
(14:40):
I I, I have been rebellious inthat sense, but I, I always made
sure that I, um, um, achievedvery well results, so they could
never say, well, you're doingsomething strange and you're not
performing, so we're going tokick you out.
They were always like, yeah,she might be pushing the
boundaries, but she is kickingass also.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You're delivering right.
That's the whole thing.
Well, I don't know.
I remember when I was atDeloitte, a company I moved
afterwards similar kind ofcompany.
I was always hitting theceiling of the corporate.
They had the progression, thecareer plan, and because I
(15:28):
mentally didn't fit any of thesemodels, I was always kidding
like roadblocks, walls and allthat.
We don't do things this way,and I'm like I was seeing the
same things happening in societyand in work, right?
in the workplace which is wealways have done things like
this way, tradition, blah, blah.
It's like this shit is not forme, maybe because I'm I'm new to
(15:51):
the divergent right, so I'mdiagnosed asperger's, so for me
it's really hard to acceptauthority and my preconception
of law and and and rules, likeit's pretty diffuse.
And so you try to beentrepreneurial.
I discovered I was trying to beentrepreneurial in an
(16:14):
environment that this kind ofcreativity wasn't allowed.
Right, because it's built forthe 80% power law of people.
Right, if you're an outlier,you're not built for these kind
of companies.
But maybe that taught me notonly how to do things but how
not to do things.
So, that accumulation offrustration biting my tongue.
(16:35):
Maybe that's what gave me theinspiration to start a company
like Marsways, which is hey,it's 100% the opposite of what
these guys are doing over here.
So my point, the question beingand I know it's a very long
preface to this question is hadI not had all of this
accumulated frustration, maybewe wouldn't have had the idea to
(16:59):
innovate so much in creating aconsultancy.
That's DNA of a startup 100%remote, more expensive than the
rest, specialists versusgeneralists and stuff like that.
Where did you get your ideasfrom?
Did you experience this sort oflike relief after getting out
of the corporate and now playingon your terms?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my foundation with KLM isvery beneficial because I know
how these large corporationswork.
I know how to make results orget to results.
I know how the politics areplayed, so that's very
fundamental for the things I doright now.
(17:42):
I work with large brandssometimes, but also small brands
, ngos, foundations.
It's like everybody is alwayslooking like me.
There's no logical sense in myclient portfolio, and that's
exactly what I want, because Ialso love the diversity of all
(18:04):
these different kind oforganizations and although these
organizations are different,they have similarities.
What I learned from KLM is thatyou can achieve fucking great
results by being rebellious, andI want to inspire organizations
(18:27):
that they should listen moreand embrace their rebels,
because those are the ones whoget the ball rolling, and now
most of the time, they arestopping this ball from rolling
and what I see is I get a lot ofprivate messages from people
who identify as a rebel and theyget super frustrated and they
(18:49):
ask me to mentor them or whatare my tips for them, and I
think that's so much lostpotential for large
organizations.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So for me me, the biggest driver of what I do, the
things I do, that I do comesfrom a lot of frustration that I
have from my corporatebackground yeah, you refer a lot
to rebels, but I wonder ifthere's any difference between a
(19:23):
rebel in a corporate and anintrapreneur, which is a word
that's overutilized to rebels,but I wonder if there's any
difference between a rebel in acorporate and an entrepreneur,
which is a word that'soverutilized.
I don't know if you, if youthink they are the same or not.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Just to understand this role a little bit better,
it's difficult because everybodyhas so many different kind of
definitions.
For for me, entrepreneur arepeople who are most of the time
dedicated to innovation orbringing new stuff.
Well, rebels can also be theones who just have a normal job
(19:54):
in a normal team and they're notworking on the next big thing,
but they can still challenge thestatus quo, come up with new
ideas to improve the workenvironment.
So there's overlap betweenintrapreneur and rebels.
But I also think rebels areeverywhere and some show it more
(20:19):
than others.
So intrapreneur is more of likea job description and the rebel
is more like how do you saythat?
It's within people?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
It's an attitude, right, yeah, which, okay.
Now it's much more clear to mebecause fundamentally, you know
working.
We don't technically work ininnovation as such, but every
now and then we get projectsthat are innovative right,
usually for the innovationdepartment.
Don't technically work ininnovation as such, but every
now and then we get projectsthat are innovative right,
usually for the innovationdepartment.
But sometimes the innovationlies outside of the innovation
(20:52):
departments, right?
Because from the outsideperspective, when you see like a
large corporation, say likeWelling or FC Barcelona or Ford
or whatever, you think like, oh,the innovation of Ford is
creating flying cars, that'swhat their innovation department
is working on.
Probably that's not true.
Probably it's like hey, no, weneed to change the material of
(21:13):
the tires so that it degradesless over time.
Or we have to make it 5% moreaerodynamic, or you know things
like that.
They look minuscule but becauseof the sheer volume of cars
they produce, the gains might bepotentially in hundreds of
millions every year.
Right, so innovation, I think,in a corporation.
(21:35):
You tell me this, but it canhappen in every department.
But it will only happen if ithas a rebel.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
If you get a rebel in the accounting department,
like're like.
No, we will start using thistool or we'll do it this way.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Exactly, yeah.
So when I was head ofinnovation at Voiling, I worked
in three different horizons, andI use this a lot because in
horizon one it's more like howcan we improve the current
business right?
How can we come up with abetter website, or stuff like
(22:09):
that, just to mention somethingyeah, just casually.
Yeah, so when we worked onHorizon 2, it was more like what
would be the future customerexperience for like in five
years from now, customerexperience for like in five
years from now.
So we created, like also avideo or an animation where we
(22:30):
started at home and we had umluggage pickup at home and we
had transport from the airportto, uh, to the airport at, from
home to the airport, and everyit was all integrated.
So that was already pushing alittle bit like the comfort zone
of Vueling.
And then for Horizon 3, I wasworking on this complete crazy
(22:51):
shit and I remember.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Give an example or two.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I remember.
So this is a true story.
We had reframed the vision ofVueling and Vueling said we want
to have the best customerexperience, low cost airline
with the best customerexperience, and blah blah, and I
didn't find that very inspiring.
So, with my team, we flipped itand we rethought the
(23:16):
assumptions underlying thisvision and then we came to the
conclusion that it should be.
An airline is in the businessof making connections everywhere
every day, and it's so.
And coming to that conclusion,we said, okay, that opened up
the space.
So we started to see how can weconnect people more with other
(23:41):
ways than just bringing themfrom airport A to airport B.
And then we did some research,and this was early 29.
And we did some research and wefound something.
So I went to the CEO of Wellingand I said I have a brilliant
idea.
I have a small company and theydo something in online
(24:02):
connections.
We need to invest in them, andthey are called Zoom.
No way, yeah, yeah yeah, no way.
And the CEO looked at me likewow, she's crazy.
And so we were not allowed todo any more research.
And a year later, no one was inthe plane and everybody was
Zooming.
So, yeah, Lost opportunity.
(24:25):
Yeah, but that's for me.
An innovation team should workon all these three things, or at
least an organization shouldhave teams working on these
three horizons.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, I like your approach to innovation because
it's let me put it bluntly, it'sno bullshit, it's straight to
the point.
It's like your book, right,it's short, straight to the
point and um.
So most business books are fullof fluff.
(25:02):
It's hard to separate the grainfrom the chaff, or they are
like I don't know if you'refamiliar like.
One of the books that I justdon't like but people seem to
love is the Subtle Art of NotGiving a Fuck by Mark.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Manson.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So that book was a perfect blog post with 400
filler pages.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Because it's just like example after example after
example, and most businessbooks are like that.
Very few business books deservemy recognition because it was
like 80 pages of great stuff andthen 400 pages of shit, of shit
.
Um, your content and yourmessage has always been, has
(25:47):
always struck me.
As you know, you're probablyfamiliar with base camp or 37
signals.
They're no nonsense, nobullshit.
They've got like very shortbooks as well, that they are
basically just blog posts.
Yeah, that they have read,adapted a little bit, and so
there are small pills of wisdomto call them, and easy to read,
like maybe in a day you readthem through and all of it is
(26:10):
actionable, all of it like youdon't have to actually spend
hours and hours trying tounderstand a concept.
It's like, oh, no meetings orno email, or one free day a week
, stuff like that.
Good, simple concepts and, uh,I don't know.
I think these, your valuespirit, is finding more
(26:33):
acceptance in the general public, because it resonates with
people, because it's genuine andauthentic, like is that
something permeditated or justcame to be, like naturally and
organically?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
like this so, uh, I studied mathematics.
Oh wow, yeah quite a plot twistyeah, yeah, but the reason why I
say that is that I was not likea natural born uh, I didn't
have to read anything and Iunderstood it.
(27:04):
I had to work for it, but stillI managed to get my degree
there.
What mathematics learned me isthere is always a solution.
Just try what, the first.
If the first thing is notworking, try the next and the
next.
So it taught me there is alwaysa solution which comes in handy
(27:24):
with innovation, and I'm notscared for complex stuff.
But during my four years or fiveyears at university, I also had
the opportunity to pick somecourses myself.
So we were allowed to do thatand everybody was was choosing
(27:47):
this kind of traditional classesand I looked at psychology and
stuff like that and I then Ifound a course which was, um, I
don't know how you call it,journalism, but then scientific
journalism, and then I hadassignments that I had to
interview like physicists whowere doing a PhD on a topic I
(28:13):
had no idea about, and then Ihad to write down a piece that
everybody would understand.
So that really pushed me totranslate really complex stuff
to basic stuff that everybodycould read, and I think that was
a seed that was planted.
That I really like to do.
(28:35):
I like to translate complexstuff into very simple, easy to
understand things, because Ialso learned during my corporate
career that if it's going to becomplex, people don't accept it
, they walk away and nothingever happens.
But if you make it easy tounderstand and fun and maybe
(28:58):
also inspiring or maybe evenpushes for some critical
thinking or yeah, maybesometimes provoking, then
something happens right.
Then other people you tap intheir emotions and then you can
build on that forward.
So, um, long, long answer.
(29:20):
But I love to create, so I alsodo a lot with visuals.
Sometimes it's just much betterto have one visual than 10
pages, so I also put a lot oftime in.
When I'm on stage and doingkeynotes, I always have a lot of
visuals and people always saythat they like my visuals,
(29:42):
because I think that is also away to communicate a message.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
In fact, I think it's kind of complex to try to
explain your methodology,because one thing you mentioned
that really resonates with me isyou don't have an ideal
customer profile.
You don't have an idea, likeyou work for NGOs, you work for
startups, you work forcorporates, you work for this
and that which is sort of likewhat we do here, like when they
(30:12):
ask me like who's your idealcustomer?
So like I don't know, I don'tknow, like not that I don't know
, I do know.
It's like pretty much everybodyis.
If, if you want to work with me, you're my ideal customer,
right, but we don't have aprepackaged solution for sports
companies or for SMBs or forpublic administration.
(30:33):
Why?
Because we do bespoke stuff.
It's very artisanal, right?
I've got the feeling that yoursis the same approach, right?
You don't have a prepackagedmethodology.
You have some common points,right?
But you enter a company andit's a consultation process,
right?
How do you start buildingsomething for a company from day
(30:57):
zero, for instance?
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, I love that you say that, because I really
don't believe there is a onesize fits all approach to
anything.
So whoever wants to sell you aone a one size fits all approach
, I would walk away immediatelyif I would be a company.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Okay.
Yeah, right For innovation,like you say in general.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I mean in general, I, because I do, I believe in
there are frameworks that youcan use, but you you have to
make it modular, right.
So I, I have like a lot oftools I can use, but it's not
like okay, clients, are we goingto do a, b, c, d?
No, I'm like I think you needthis framework and maybe that
approach, and then I do thisworkshop to get create the right
(31:43):
mindset.
And then, with another customer, it's like totally different
because, yeah, I've seen so manydifferent kind of leadership
styles and environments that Ithink it's much more valuable to
.
But typically what I do is, whenI have long-term collaborations
(32:04):
with organizations, I try toget a sense of the organization.
So I visit the plans or I visitthe organization several times
and I try to work with teams sothat I really get a much better
understanding of what they areabout and what the people are
about and what the culture is.
And then I come to somesolutions or I start working,
(32:28):
but my assignments always startvery vague.
They call me and like, hey,simona, we need to do something
with innovation or change, canyou help us?
And then I always say, oh, yeah, sure, and that's how it starts
and we both know it's theirsource, sort of like a trust
base.
Like she has done well in thepast, so she will do well here
(32:53):
too.
And I believe that everyorganization you have a lot of
people who are motivated.
You have a lot of rebels Someare hidden who can help you
forward, to get the organizationmoving forward.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
That's a perfect assist, because I was going to
ask you know your methodologist.
You said like it's notprepackaged.
At the same time, you're alsolike rebellious in nature.
You've got these not aggressivebut a bit like blunt opinions
and so that come across as easyto dismiss by a big corporation
(33:29):
like, oh no, we don't like thatprofile.
It's a hard sell, right?
Yeah, it is.
So.
You know, it's mostly you startworking for our company because
of recommendation, because ofyour credentials in the past.
So, but how do you measure theimpact of your projects?
Is there any sort ofstandardized KPI in all of the
projects that you've done so far?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
True answer.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I assume it's no, there isn't right.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
No, but my clients are always very enthusiastic.
So yeah, how do you measure?
Speaker 1 (34:07):
the return on investment, but my clients are
always very enthusiastic.
I mentioned the return oninvestment in this kind of
project.
I don't really ask this toinnovation people and most of
the time it's like well, wedon't know.
Or sometimes it's just likerevenue and, for instance,
corporate venturing right orcorporate innovation.
It's like usually somethingwill not work but because they
have an innovation departmentthey've got better employee
(34:29):
retention.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, and that's enough.
Yeah, right, wow.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah, so I worked for Chanel, right?
Did you know or not?
Chanel?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Chanel.
Yeah, I remember that, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember
that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, it's funny because, well, you only see this
, but I never have a bag or soI'm not like the typical Chanel
person.
Yeah, and then they asked me,hey, would you like to help us
out?
And I was like, are you sure?
Because, well, look at me.
And I also said, like, mycompany name is Rebella, are you
(35:07):
really?
That's not just because itsounds nice.
And they say, yeah, yeah, wereally need that.
So I helped the CIO of Europefor two or three years and my
main assignment was to boost theinnovation mindset of the team.
How do you measure that?
So I gave workshops and Iexperimented in some boutiques
(35:27):
and stuff like that, yeah, butpeople were starting to ask
different kind of questionsbecause I was always challenging
them.
So maybe that was enough forthe CIO that he saw that his
team was growing, or yeah, yeah,because that's that's the thing
(35:49):
, like in innovation.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Like, for instance, I remember in that event in
corporate summit 2020, one ofthe somebody shared that I don't
remember which was itDefinitely I think it was not
you but somebody said like look,one of the hard truths of
corporate innovation is thatjust by saying that you're
(36:12):
innovating, the share value goesup and that's enough.
You're getting paid back andfeedback and you know price per
share, exposure or advertisingyeah I'm like, wow, that is
terrible yeah, at the same timeit's like oh, it works, you know
yeah, but, and so I reallydon't like that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
So early on we talked about result driven and I get
really excited if I accomplishsomething, if I really am able
to make a change.
But for me, making a change isnot only implementing a new
service or improving somethingor coming up with a total new
business idea, getting moreconfident in that they can be
(37:07):
themselves, that they are ableto ask questions that they
didn't dare to ask before, thatthey start to think more
critically, that they learn howto do that in a constructive way
.
So that's not destructive,because I also know some rebels
who can be quite destructive.
I've been there too.
Sounds like me, but I thinkyeah, so that's also for me a
(37:31):
big result, and I get quite alot of messages from people who
say so.
I also write this newsletterevery two weeks.
I don't know if you have seenit, but it's called Ask Dr Rebel
, and then people can ask me anykind of question about
rebellious behavior.
And it can be a rebel, but itcan also be a coworker or a
manager, and what I try to do isgive like a different kind of
(37:54):
perspective on a topic.
So the other day I wrotesomething about yes, but,
because everybody's alwayscomplaining about people who say
yes, but, but I think they'revery valuable.
Well, you need them.
You don't need them duringideation, but you need them
during implementation, or uh.
So people have ideas aboutrebels and I try to flip that
(38:18):
and I try to say but look at thegood side of this kind of
behavior, yeah, so for me, agreat result is also creating an
environment where people can bethemselves when there are
(38:39):
rebels.
They are not avoided or butthat they're actually embraced
and that their skills areactually used to make the team
result even better.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
So, yeah, but certainly team satisfaction is
not how we say it.
Like doesn't sign contracts,right.
There must be something else,at least in the short term.
We know innovation might taketime.
Some innovation might be likereflect on the branding and it
(39:14):
comes back seven years afteryou've left the company, right.
But there have to be some sortof like goals or milestones or
KPIs you have to hit, Otherwisethey don't renew your contract,
Right?
So how do you approach this?
Is that something that yourclients define?
You define Like how does itwork in your methodology?
(39:37):
Yeah, I know I'm resultsoriented and I don't know, like
maybe I'm being too much of anengineer oriented and I don't
know, like maybe I'm being toomuch of an engineer.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It's um, uh, I, with many clients I don't have like a
real specific kpi, as crazy asit sounds, and, and some clients
it's.
Then it's me who decides tostop the contract, and not the
client.
Most often, most often aftertwo, three years, it's like okay
, the energy is out.
Now I think I'm I've I've getthe ball moving or get the
(40:11):
things moving, and now it's upto you.
And during the two or threeyears that I'm working with with
organizations, I also try to um, lead, guide people or learn
people how to facilitate andstuff like that, so that it
still can continue when I'm away.
(40:31):
So, um, I teach people how todo things, um, and then after
two, three years, then my timeis.
Then for me it feels like okay,I think now is the time to
leave.
So most of the time it's mewho's leaving, it's not the
(40:54):
client who says okay, simona,thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So you're creating some sort of sense of scarcity
as well, like, or putting somesense of urgency that, look, I
typically don't renew mycontracts after year two, and so
that signals that you're inhigh demand, right, and there's
somebody else waiting with acontract for you and they're
like, okay, fine, we'll dowhatever, right?
(41:21):
Do they actually take action,or not really because they're
slow movers?
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah, it depends.
Different kind of clientsdifferent.
So yeah, I don't know ifclients think like that.
It's just for me, I really wantto do the best for the company
and it's not that I want tocreate some kind of sense around
me like, hey, yeah, it's maybehard to explain and sometimes I
(41:54):
have to think about my own.
Sometimes I'm reflecting onwhat am I doing, what am I
bringing for organizations, howare things going?
Is this what I want or do Ineed to be more specific and
define KPIs?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
But yeah, no worries, I don't know.
I get the feeling because whenI was freelancing 15 years ago
Jesus Christ, that reveals myage I was like that just because
I didn't need it, right, I wasdoing a project here and there I
was like, ah, this project,yeah, this other e-commerce not
(42:35):
interesting?
Right, yet another website orWordPress?
Like, no, not gonna touch thatshit.
Um, so I, I can totally relateto that and so if you play on
your terms, it's much more fun.
Um, let's, let's give a coupleminutes to like the, the, the
newsletter you mentioned and thebook, right.
Um, building a personal brandlike you have built over the
(42:55):
years, yeah, comes with acommunity, with a tribe, right,
I don't know if that'sintentional or not, but I didn't
know about the newsletter, Iknew about the book and so, but
it comes also with a high price,which is the pressure of having
to put out original contentevery now and then.
I don't know what is your ideamachine Like.
(43:19):
Three months ago, I alsolaunched my own personal
newsletter, right, and I havebig opinions that I cannot
express on the Mars Base blogsometimes, and so it's more like
personal stuff.
Fine, there's a clearerdistinction For you.
Business and your own opinionsare probably the same.
Right, because you're a personand a personal brand, but not a
(43:43):
company, right?
Exactly, yeah, how do you, howdo you work with that and how?
How is the public react?
Reacting?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
it's um, so I get my I.
I'm overloaded with ideas, sothere is no problem?
Yeah, there isn't so, and I getmy inspiration from very
different kind of sources,mostly not thick books, but
(44:11):
every now and then, but a lot ofpodcasts I listen.
I randomly listen podcasts, sosometimes it's like, okay, this
is someone.
I'm part of a WhatsApp grouphere in Holland and it's called
the Podcast Club and a lot ofpodcasts are shared and it's a
very diverse group.
So a lot of diversity ofpodcasts and it forces me to
(44:32):
listen to stuff that are outsideof my bubble and it's fun
because it brings me new stuff.
Are outside of my bubble andit's fun because it brings me
new stuff.
So I get a lot of ideas andsometimes it's just a simple
sentence that makes that's forme the start of a whole new
(44:54):
newsletter.
So now, for instance, I'mworking on the newsletter about
focus, because I think there'stoo much focus on focus.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Yeah, I think sometimes you need to let go.
And then that's because I wasin an organization and everybody
was pushing each other and thensomeone was looking outside the
window and then others werecomplaining about that and I
said, said, well, probably thisguy is getting now his ideas,
and so what I try to do with mynewsletter is make people think.
(45:32):
So I just mentioned about, yes,but everybody's always
complaining about that and Igive the opposite perspective on
that, and I think this is alsowhat my brand is all about.
It's like, okay, what I say,you don't necessarily have to
agree with what I say, but forme, a discussion is not about
(45:54):
who is winning the discussion,but a discussion is about that.
You make the other person thinkRight, I love it when I have
conversations.
When I walk away, I'm like shit, I didn't think about it that
way, and that's also what I wantto do.
That's also what my brand isabout.
And my books you say one book, Ihave three, it's a series.
(46:17):
One book I have three, it's uh,it's a series.
Um is I want to bring the rebelperspective, the, the rebel
mindset, from differentperspectives.
So one is for the rebel, it'suh themselves, because it's
called oh no, we have a oh no,I'm a rebel.
Now what?
Yeah?
And and then I have one formanagers.
It's like, oh shit, our rebelsare leaving.
(46:39):
I want to bridge these worldsbecause I see so much
polarization in the world ingeneral, but also on the work
floor, between rebels or peoplewho can think differently,
versus people who followestablishment, and I want to
(47:00):
show that you need both and it'sokay.
So that's what my brand is allabout, and then knowing that
it's not hard to write, to findmy topics and write or publish
about that.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
From that perspective , Is that somehow like bringing
you new clients Because you havebecome a thought leader, right?
And so when you have a trulydistinct voice like yours that
creates a drive and thatattracts also potential
customers, like, hey, I likewhat she's saying, I want to
(47:43):
work with her, right, uh, itattracts talent as well, but I
don't know if you're hiring oryou're still working alone, but
uh, yeah, um, it happens to us.
But uh also brings clientsbecause you think differently
yeah, and and so what I alsosaid?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
it also pushes away clients because they're like, oh
, she's too rebellious, butthat's fine, because then we
were the match in the firstplace.
But I often get requests forkeynotes because people read
articles.
I also publish for the largestmanagement platform here in
Holland.
I write monthly columns forthem, so that's also fun and um,
(48:20):
yeah.
But so what I also see is youasked me, so ask me about.
How do you get to originalcontent?
Yeah, and it's what I strugglewith a lot is that, for instance
, on linkedin, you see a lot ofposts that get thousands of
likes and then I look at it andthen I think the content is like
(48:41):
it's fucking garbage, right,yeah, yeah, it's optimized for
the algorithm I know, I know,but that I'm like I really don't
want to go there, I don't wantto play the game and then but
but sometimes I'm like then Ithink I have written something
really cool and it doesn'tresonate.
(49:02):
You really have to be resilientto keep going, because it's easy
to quit.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, for me.
I share that frustration.
When I open LinkedIn and I seethat mostly it's garbage, I'm
like how is this fucking shitgetting 10 000 likes?
Um?
And I put some interestingthought or like maybe the next
event or whatever blog post.
I spent five hours writing yeah, it gets one thumbs up yeah,
(49:34):
I'm like this is horrible.
At the same time, I'm thinkinglike well, in the long term,
this other prefabricated chatGPD generated garbage will be
dismissed, it will be forgotten,and the ones having like an
authentic vision, solution,discourse and all of that, we
(49:57):
will be highly esteemed.
I would say, like we will beremembered.
Right, yeah, we'll havedetractors of course, many but
it will be remembered because weare we're we're sharing
original content.
Yeah, not like stuff that it'sframed to or design architected
to kind of like fit in intoalgorithm but in two years it
(50:20):
disappears because no one isgoing to like all of these
bullet points with emojis andwhatever like optimized for
LinkedIn.
It just doesn't resonate withanybody.
Right, it's like nowadays youcreate stuff that creates
outreach, it performs like.
I tried a a few weeks ago.
I did an experiment and withina couple weeks I posted three or
(50:43):
four things out of my scope,but they created outrage, right?
Yeah and uh, just to test thewaters yeah and it went boom, it
went massive right.
And so now I'm starting to dosome shit posting on LinkedIn,
basically like ditchingcompanies like Lobo and stuff
like that, but it's just hittingmassive scale.
I'm like this is horrible.
(51:04):
I mean it works to get mymessage out there.
It's original content, don'tget me wrong, but that's not
what I want to be known for.
Yeah Right, so you have thesecognitive dissonance of like
saying, saying like I reallydon't want to do that.
At the same time, dopamine hitsand the reach.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
If you leave off exposure, you have to do it, so
I understand why people sell out.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah, no, I still keep my rebellious mind.
I'm like I'm going to stickwith what I do.
And then I don't care, but Idon't want to follow the crowd
here, and then I don't care, butI don't want to follow the
crowd here.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
I'm just going to continue, but it's difficult and
it's tempting to go along withwhat everybody else does, but
yeah, it is difficult because,like well, I mean, if you
there's this saying ininnovation right, that there is
if you follow everybody else'sor someone else's paths, you're
never going to go somewhere new,right, yeah, and so I
(52:04):
understand.
At the same time, it works.
So sometimes you got to do itto get from A to B, because in
point B you will have moreresources and if you are
rebellious too early, maybe thatwill close all of the doors.
So it's a compromise, it's atrade-off that is very
complicated to solve.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
Yes, we only know if we meet again in a couple of
years, and then we can look backand then say, well, did it work
or not?
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, Well, I mean to your point, seeing like
sometimes it just like itqualifies your clients right.
I know like, for instance,we've been very political in
certain things publicly as acompany, and I know we're never
going to work with certaincompanies because they will be
like oh no, we don't want towork with them.
Like 2017, when the Catalanindependence process was going
(52:52):
on, like we're super publicabout that, we're in favor,
we're pro-Catalan independence,and we probably lost some
potential clients At the sametime, some companies were like
we want to work with you guys.
So it qualified.
It just removed the filter.
It accelerated the process,right?
Maybe we lost some potentialcandidates that they will never
work for us?
I don't know.
If you don't want to work withme because of my political views
(53:15):
, then I don't want to work withyou, right?
I totally respect differentopinions, but if you have a
problem with that, then youdon't have a place here.
Simone, before wrapping it up,we got a signature question in
the podcast that totally caughtyou off guard, because it
totally catches everybody offguard.
But it's basically what hasbeen your most expensive fuck up
(53:36):
in the company that you have toown up to it.
It's got to be yours.
Something you did, a decisionof yours that was like, oh wow,
yeah, that cost a lot of moneyto the company.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Oh, shit, that's a difficult one.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Take your time.
I share thousands of my fuckups every now and then, so
probably one per episode.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, you, you asked the most expensive one, right?
So that means yeah, or?
Speaker 1 (54:06):
it has to be expensive, like probably.
But uh, some people say like,oh yeah, we totally squandered,
like we built a prototype wedidn't need and we never
launched that.
We spent like 100k on that orsomething like that.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
Well, when I was at Voiling there's one example, but
there are more but when I wasat Voiling, I had the vision to
work on a platform that wouldrecommend the opposite, so that
you would not like the sort oflike the recommendations, like
(54:40):
the obvious things.
If you like this, then you likethat.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
All right.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
I wanted to do, to have like a surprise in there.
So I said I wanted to like thatwe have a recommender and then
said, if you like this, and thencome up with something very
surprising, but still a match.
But not something verysurprising, but still a match.
So we spent like, I think,100,000 euros to work out that
(55:04):
idea, because it was also basedon personalization.
So we needed to personalize andthen say, okay, we're not going
to do the obvious thing, butthe non-obvious.
But it was hard to get peopleconvinced, but I'd spend like
100,000 euros on that, I think.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Nice.
Thank you for sharing.
I remember we had Bisset Smartywho used to be the COO or CFO
back in the day and he sharedsomething about willing.
He was in charge of thecheckout process, for whatever
reason, and then he triedsomething else, but in the
process of doing so he removedthe credit card validation and
so for like a day they couldn'tcharge customers.
(55:44):
They lost like I don't know howmany hundreds of thousands of
of of euros in revenue becausepeople couldn't fucking buy the
plane tickets.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
So yeah, exactly.
And then it went viral, andthen everybody yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Well, one more minute for you to share.
I'm rolling out the red carpethere, so what have you got in
store to share?
Like, what can we expect of you?
New books, new Plug in yournewsletter as well, so?
Anything you want to say andshare.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, so books I started with one, it became
three because someone said to meoh, it's going to be a series,
so probably there are going tobe more editions.
I'm thinking about a rebel toolbook, so that helps you to
become more rebellious or todeal with rebels.
There are already a lot ofrebel tools on my website, so if
(56:33):
you want a preview of the toolsyou can assess your Taylor
Swift innovation-ness on mywebsite and all that kind of
crazy stuff.
I do that for fun.
My newsletter if you want tosubscribe, you can subscribe on
LinkedIn, but also on Substack,whatever you want, and I would
(56:55):
appreciate if people would dothat, if they really like it and
sometimes let me know that theylike it, so that all the effort
I put in is also not fornothing.
Right that you write for awhole day on the newsletter and
then you don't get any response?
So it would be nice if peoplealso sometimes say, hey, that
(57:16):
was a really nice thought orwhatever that's it.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Yeah, let me echo that I.
I know the feeling, I shared afeeling and then when you ask
people directly, they're like no, I totally love it, like I like
that one and this one.
When you talk about this andthat, I'm like, then fucking
reply to it, motherfuckerbecause, it feels like talking
to the void, you know, but I Iunderstand.
Like you don't know, you canactually reply to a newsletter,
(57:40):
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (57:41):
and if you have friends over there in Barcelona
or wherever who want athought-provoking but fun
keynote, they can also reach outto me.
I think more rebelliousness onstage.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
I assume you don't get free flights from Willing
for Life, right?
Because?
You haven't worked there andalso not for KLM.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
No.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
No no.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
But I did an assignment for KLM and that was
during COVID, and then they hadno money and I said, oh, you can
pay me in business classtickets.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
And they did.
Oh wow, I'm open to.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
How do you say that?
Yeah, exchange, I'm open to.
How do you say that to?
Speaker 1 (58:19):
exchange right, so it's kind of like swapping the
services exactly nice.
Simone, thank you, yes, thankyou, for being here looking
forward to.
I will sign up to thenewsletter and sounds like
something interesting.
Hopefully we can coincide inanother event exactly in
Barcelona.
That's it, thanks thanks forthe time and Coinsight in
(58:40):
another event, exactly inBarcelona.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
That's right, thanks.
Thanks for the time.
Hello everybody and welcome to Life on Mars.
I'm Alex, ceo and founder ofMarsBase, and in this episode
I'm joined by Simone van Nierpen, the founder of Rebella, a
company bringing innovation torebellious attitude, around
which she has created her ownpersonal branding and how being
(00:27):
rebellious in corporateenvironments can pay off very,
very big dividends if you havethe right attitude.
So, without further ado, let'sjump right into this episode.
Welcome, simone.
How are you doing Good toreconnect?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yes, good to see you again.
I'm doing well over here inAmsterdam.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Great.
It's funny that we I think it'skind of coincidental that we
connected for the event, theCorporate Innovation Summit we
put together in March 2020 orlate February 2020, right before
COVID hit.
It was on the evening ofsupposedly, there had to be
(01:14):
Mobile World Congress, but itgot canceled.
That year, however, a few of usdecided we were going to
continue with our events.
There was a text period, therewas our event In hindsight not
the most brilliant idea, but thefeeling of community that we
got in those trying times wasvery intense, but that was right
(01:35):
away.
You left Barcelona, so are youmissing Barcelona at all in our
ecosystem?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, I miss Barcelona a lot, and not only
because of the nice atmosphere,but also I had such a great team
over there.
So I miss my team and I alsomiss like.
It was like a small communityand everybody knew each other,
and the difference betweenAmsterdam and Barcelona is, I
(02:02):
think people here are more Idon't know how to say that more
closed, while in Barcelona it'slike, hey, join, and if you know
someone else, bring them along,and it's more free, and I
really love that.
There was a lot of serendipitygoing on and I think that's also
one of the reasons how we metand I met within a couple of the
(02:24):
reasons how we met and I metwithin a couple of months.
Living in Barcelona, I think Iknew a lot of people in the
innovation space over there.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Two more coincidences that today we woke up to the
news that our venue for thisyear's Corporate Innovation
Summit had been Our contract wascanceled single-handedly by the
venue, which is prettydisastrous news to wake up to.
Yeah, fortunately we've got abackup, but this is the fourth
edition of that event.
(02:52):
The other coincidence that youmight not be aware of is because
I got to know you in that event.
I kind of like dug deeper intowhat Vueling does in technology,
and so I started meeting peopleat Vueling.
And now we're into what Vuelingdoes in technology, and so he
started meeting people atVueling and now we're providers
of Vueling.
Vueling is our client.
We signed Vueling last year butwe started meeting people and
(03:13):
then I was fascinated by all thethings going on, which is kind
of strange considering the shitwebsite and the terrible
experience that Vueling has.
But the things that they investin technology and innovation
are pretty impressive.
So don't worry, you will notget in trouble, Only me.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, I know it's interesting because before I did
my assignment at Voiling, Iworked a long time for KLM and
then everybody was like, oh, klm, but Voiling was and is much
more innovative and because theyalso still well.
When I was like, oh, klm, butVuelingen was and is much more
innovative and because they alsostill well when I was there I
(03:52):
don't know now five years later,but they had really like this
startup mindset still and what Idid with my team I don't know
if you, I have lots of storiesthere, but my assignment was for
two years so I decided that Ineeded to push and if I didn't
get any pushback I wasn't doinga good job.
So I tried to dwell on the edgeand see, okay, how far can we
(04:15):
go?
I had like a secret developersteam in Valencia, so that was
sort of like outside of theorganization, so we could very
quickly build prototypes andinvestigate new technologies and
innovations and they could helpus a lot without being bothered
by this headquarter, legalstuff and all that kind of thing
(04:40):
.
So that was nice.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
That's something that's still there.
I think we work for theinnovation department and they
move pretty fast, consideringit's a corporation, right, and
considering it's within.
You know the main holding andthis intricate relationship of
all like the big brands of thegroup and whatnot, but I find it
very surprising that they werelike you guys choose your
technologies, you guys chooseyour methodology, you're allowed
(05:05):
to do 100%, whatever the fuckyou want to do.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Which doesn't happen like this in corporate.
So so far we're very happy, andso I can.
I can attest to what you'resaying.
It's still.
It's still holding truenowadays.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, and it's, so.
I reported to Jorge Sacco.
He's the CFO of Willing.
And yeah, and so I reported toJorge Sacco.
He's the CFO of Willing and Ithink he's still there and,
unlike many other CFOs, he wasvery visionary and he was very
open to investing in new thingsand trying things out, so that
was very helpful too, and maybethat's also one of the reasons
(05:41):
why this vibe is still there.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So, yeah, so you mentioned the thing about the
pushback.
Was it a good assist, a goodsegue to get into what you're
doing right now?
The Revelleus actually that youthink brings innovation Was it
a plot, so I've always been arebel.
But now I dare to show it more.
(06:03):
That's your brand.
How did that come to be?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
first of all, yeah, um, it's it.
So when I quit my job at klmseven years ago, um, that was
because I was approached for bywelling for their head of
innovation position, and I saidI don't want to do it if I.
And how do you say that?
If I, if you give me apermanent contract so you can
(06:30):
hire me as a freelance or umyeah and then we negotiate a
little bit and then they said,yeah, okay, let's do that.
And I was like shit.
Now I have to uh to how do yousay that?
To build my brand or to go tothis government here in holland?
To how do you I don't know howyou call that, but you have to
have your um chamber of commerceor something.
(06:52):
Your yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Chamber of color yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
so shit, I need a name.
And then I I asked some friendsand, uh, I popped some ideas
and everybody liked rubella themost.
It's from Rebel and Bella andthis combination.
And then I was like, okay,let's do it.
And that's how the name wasborn.
But if I look back at my youthand everything, I've always been
(07:17):
quite rebellious, so I think itwas unconscious or subconscious
choice.
And now I dare also to build itbigger.
And the reason why I say I dareto?
Because with this Rebella nameI also push clients away Because
(07:42):
they're like we don't needrebels and we don't need
anything of that, so let's notgo there.
But for me I'm like, hey, ifclients don't want to work with
me because of this name, we arenot a good match in the first
place.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I don't know if I'm crossing a line here, but
rebellion doesn't come fromplaces of comfort or from
upbringings of, you know,environments of abundance, and
so I've always been prettyrebellious myself.
Uh, that's why we have thissort of symphony going on.
But because my family had camefrom a very I wouldn't say poor,
(08:21):
but like modest, humble,working class background, right,
we had very little to live withand I had to kind of like fight
my way through, you know,divorced parents, like living
off subsidies from the state andstuff like that.
I'm also left-handed, so I'vegot, I had like all the
constraints in the world, jokesaside, but that maybe brought me
(08:44):
to certain cultural tribes,right, even though I never kind
of like associated with any ofthem a hundred percent, because
back then you know there wouldbe like, oh, the skinheads, the
metalheads, the whatever, likethis and that.
And uh, I've always beenrebellious through music.
For instance.
And for me, certain music likepunk, rock and metal spoke to me
(09:04):
because it was rebellious.
I don't know if you had somesort of connection to music at
all, or is it just only business?
I don't know in your case.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
No, it's also the way I live.
When I was 13 years old, I saidto my parents I don't want to
have children.
And they're like, yeah sure,you're 30 years old, but I
already deeply knew inside thatI didn't want that.
But it's not a choice.
Many people don't make thiskind of choice at that age, and
(09:40):
it was against how do you saythat?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Establishment, yeah, establishment, tradition, even
yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So my parents are also from working class and my
grandparents had a farm andwhenever I wanted something to
buy, something like a stereo orwhatever my parents said, good,
great idea, go I, go at work andearn your own money and then
buy whatever you want.
So so I also learned a lot towork really hard and not to give
(10:07):
up.
And in my upbringing, I thinkwhat is also very
transformational for me iseverybody always said ah, you're
a girl, so don't leave it anddon't bother that much.
And why, why are you trying sohard and just leave it?
And I was like leave it, fuckit.
(10:27):
And so I I have like a strong,deep urge to maybe to prove
myself or to show the world thatI, um, I can do stuff, and
that's also a big driver for me,um, and maybe, yeah, a small, a
short story, because it's a funstory, but also it shows that
(10:51):
I'm passionate about like thisfemale male thing, because I
experience as a female sometimesthat I'm treated differently.
So when I was four years old, wewere in kindergarten I don't
know how you say that in Spanish, but like preschool right and
then in Holland we don't havethe Christmas, we don't have
(11:14):
Santa Claus at Christmas, but wehave Sinterklaas, which is at
December 5th.
Similar guy whatever, he alsogives presents.
So he came to the kindergartenschool and he had presents for
everyone.
So he had for the boys he had atoy truck and for the girls he
had a doll and yeah I have been.
(11:35):
I screamed for a very long timeuntil I got this toy truck
because I really want.
I didn't want to have the dolland so.
So I think I was already like,yeah, I don't know pushing the
limits fighting against.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, fighting against the establishment.
Finally, when I was a kid, Iwas always playing with dolls
myself, so we should havechanged places.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, but probably I don't know if in your case, like
in my case, when I grew up, Istarted working, you know, even
though you have yourpreconceptions and you can be as
rebellious as you want insociety, you know, going to I
remember going to the traditionsor what you read on the news
(12:27):
what is passed on is at work.
You don't discuss politics, youdon't discuss.
You know, no football, nopolitics, no religion, stuff
like that, so that.
And back then you couldn't belike left wing, at least in
Spain, right, the zeitgeist wasanother and so for me it was
(13:03):
pretty shocking.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I had to bite my tongue pretty often when I was
at.
I started at Deloitte, like themost corporate environment.
So how did you manage theinternal frustration of having
to bite your tongue?
If you had to, I'm assuming youhad to in your corporate years.
Yeah, so it's funny, right,because in the time that I
graduated from university it wasnormal to go to a large
corporate, right?
But today it's very cool to goand build your own startup.
So I wish I was born like 20years later, because I think I'm
(13:37):
much more like an entrepreneurthan someone who fits in the
corporate culture.
So what happened is I startedwith first the Royal Dutch Mail
Company, which is a hugecorporate, and then after two
years, I switched to KLM.
So I have been at KLM for like16 years and it's interesting
because you already see on theuniforms how important someone
(13:57):
is the more stripes, the moreimportant.
So it was a very hierarchicalorganization and there I was.
I was like fuck hierarchy, andif I have an idea, I'm going to
do it.
And so, yes, I had to bite offmy tongue quite often.
On the other hand, I also builtor created my own job five or
six times just out of nothing.
(14:18):
Then I had my normal job andthen I saw some things that were
not going well, or I had anidea, and then I was like, oh,
maybe we can do something withthat.
And then it started to work out, and then they made it my job
and then I got bored again andthen the same happened.
So, um, although so what?
(14:40):
I I, I have been rebellious inthat sense, but I, I always made
sure that I, um, um, achievedvery well results, so they could
never say, well, you're doingsomething strange and you're not
performing, so we're going tokick you out.
They were always like, yeah,she might be pushing the
boundaries, but she is kickingass also.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You're delivering right.
That's the whole thing.
Well, I don't know.
I remember when I was atDeloitte, a company I moved
afterwards similar kind ofcompany.
I was always hitting theceiling of the corporate.
They had the progression, thecareer plan, and because I
(15:28):
mentally didn't fit any of thesemodels, I was always kidding
like roadblocks, walls and allthat.
We don't do things this way,and I'm like I was seeing the
same things happening in societyand in work, right?
in the workplace which is wealways have done things like
this way, tradition, blah, blah.
It's like this shit is not forme, maybe because I'm I'm new to
(15:51):
the divergent right, so I'mdiagnosed asperger's, so for me
it's really hard to acceptauthority and my preconception
of law and and and rules, likeit's pretty diffuse.
And so you try to beentrepreneurial.
I discovered I was trying to beentrepreneurial in an
(16:14):
environment that this kind ofcreativity wasn't allowed.
Right, because it's built forthe 80% power law of people.
Right, if you're an outlier,you're not built for these kind
of companies.
But maybe that taught me notonly how to do things but how
not to do things.
So, that accumulation offrustration biting my tongue.
(16:35):
Maybe that's what gave me theinspiration to start a company
like Marsways, which is hey,it's 100% the opposite of what
these guys are doing over here.
So my point, the question beingand I know it's a very long
preface to this question is hadI not had all of this
accumulated frustration, maybewe wouldn't have had the idea to
(16:59):
innovate so much in creating aconsultancy.
That's DNA of a startup 100%remote, more expensive than the
rest, specialists versusgeneralists and stuff like that.
Where did you get your ideasfrom?
Did you experience this sort oflike relief after getting out
of the corporate and now playingon your terms?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my foundation with KLM isvery beneficial because I know
how these large corporationswork.
I know how to make results orget to results.
I know how the politics areplayed, so that's very
fundamental for the things I doright now.
(17:42):
I work with large brandssometimes, but also small brands
, ngos, foundations.
It's like everybody is alwayslooking like me.
There's no logical sense in myclient portfolio, and that's
exactly what I want, because Ialso love the diversity of all
(18:04):
these different kind oforganizations and although these
organizations are different,they have similarities.
What I learned from KLM is thatyou can achieve fucking great
results by being rebellious, andI want to inspire organizations
(18:27):
that they should listen moreand embrace their rebels,
because those are the ones whoget the ball rolling, and now
most of the time, they arestopping this ball from rolling
and what I see is I get a lot ofprivate messages from people
who identify as a rebel and theyget super frustrated and they
(18:49):
ask me to mentor them or whatare my tips for them, and I
think that's so much lostpotential for large
organizations.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So for me me, the biggest driver of what I do, the
things I do, that I do comesfrom a lot of frustration that I
have from my corporatebackground yeah, you refer a lot
to rebels, but I wonder ifthere's any difference between a
(19:23):
rebel in a corporate and anintrapreneur, which is a word
that's overutilized to rebels,but I wonder if there's any
difference between a rebel in acorporate and an entrepreneur,
which is a word that'soverutilized.
I don't know if you, if youthink they are the same or not.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Just to understand this role a little bit better,
it's difficult because everybodyhas so many different kind of
definitions.
For for me, entrepreneur arepeople who are most of the time
dedicated to innovation orbringing new stuff.
Well, rebels can also be theones who just have a normal job
(19:54):
in a normal team and they're notworking on the next big thing,
but they can still challenge thestatus quo, come up with new
ideas to improve the workenvironment.
So there's overlap betweenintrapreneur and rebels.
But I also think rebels areeverywhere and some show it more
(20:19):
than others.
So intrapreneur is more of likea job description and the rebel
is more like how do you saythat?
It's within people?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
It's an attitude, right, yeah, which, okay.
Now it's much more clear to mebecause fundamentally, you know
working.
We don't technically work ininnovation as such, but every
now and then we get projectsthat are innovative right,
usually for the innovationdepartment.
Don't technically work ininnovation as such, but every
now and then we get projectsthat are innovative right,
usually for the innovationdepartment.
But sometimes the innovationlies outside of the innovation
(20:52):
departments, right?
Because from the outsideperspective, when you see like a
large corporation, say likeWelling or FC Barcelona or Ford
or whatever, you think like, oh,the innovation of Ford is
creating flying cars, that'swhat their innovation department
is working on.
Probably that's not true.
Probably it's like hey, no, weneed to change the material of
(21:13):
the tires so that it degradesless over time.
Or we have to make it 5% moreaerodynamic, or you know things
like that.
They look minuscule but becauseof the sheer volume of cars
they produce, the gains might bepotentially in hundreds of
millions every year.
Right, so innovation, I think,in a corporation.
(21:35):
You tell me this, but it canhappen in every department.
But it will only happen if ithas a rebel.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
If you get a rebel in the accounting department,
like're like.
No, we will start using thistool or we'll do it this way.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Exactly, yeah.
So when I was head ofinnovation at Voiling, I worked
in three different horizons, andI use this a lot because in
horizon one it's more like howcan we improve the current
business right?
How can we come up with abetter website, or stuff like
(22:09):
that, just to mention somethingyeah, just casually.
Yeah, so when we worked onHorizon 2, it was more like what
would be the future customerexperience for like in five
years from now, customerexperience for like in five
years from now.
So we created, like also avideo or an animation where we
(22:30):
started at home and we had umluggage pickup at home and we
had transport from the airportto, uh, to the airport at, from
home to the airport, and everyit was all integrated.
So that was already pushing alittle bit like the comfort zone
of Vueling.
And then for Horizon 3, I wasworking on this complete crazy
(22:51):
shit and I remember.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Give an example or two.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I remember.
So this is a true story.
We had reframed the vision ofVueling and Vueling said we want
to have the best customerexperience, low cost airline
with the best customerexperience, and blah blah, and I
didn't find that very inspiring.
So, with my team, we flipped itand we rethought the
(23:16):
assumptions underlying thisvision and then we came to the
conclusion that it should be.
An airline is in the businessof making connections everywhere
every day, and it's so.
And coming to that conclusion,we said, okay, that opened up
the space.
So we started to see how can weconnect people more with other
(23:41):
ways than just bringing themfrom airport A to airport B.
And then we did some research,and this was early 29.
And we did some research and wefound something.
So I went to the CEO of Wellingand I said I have a brilliant
idea.
I have a small company and theydo something in online
(24:02):
connections.
We need to invest in them, andthey are called Zoom.
No way, yeah, yeah yeah, no way.
And the CEO looked at me likewow, she's crazy.
And so we were not allowed todo any more research.
And a year later, no one was inthe plane and everybody was
Zooming.
So, yeah, Lost opportunity.
(24:25):
Yeah, but that's for me.
An innovation team should workon all these three things, or at
least an organization shouldhave teams working on these
three horizons.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, I like your approach to innovation because
it's let me put it bluntly, it'sno bullshit, it's straight to
the point.
It's like your book, right,it's short, straight to the
point and um.
So most business books are fullof fluff.
(25:02):
It's hard to separate the grainfrom the chaff, or they are
like I don't know if you'refamiliar like.
One of the books that I justdon't like but people seem to
love is the Subtle Art of NotGiving a Fuck by Mark.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Manson.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So that book was a perfect blog post with 400
filler pages.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Because it's just like example after example after
example, and most businessbooks are like that.
Very few business books deservemy recognition because it was
like 80 pages of great stuff andthen 400 pages of shit, of shit
.
Um, your content and yourmessage has always been, has
(25:47):
always struck me.
As you know, you're probablyfamiliar with base camp or 37
signals.
They're no nonsense, nobullshit.
They've got like very shortbooks as well, that they are
basically just blog posts.
Yeah, that they have read,adapted a little bit, and so
there are small pills of wisdomto call them, and easy to read,
like maybe in a day you readthem through and all of it is
(26:10):
actionable, all of it like youdon't have to actually spend
hours and hours trying tounderstand a concept.
It's like, oh, no meetings orno email, or one free day a week
, stuff like that.
Good, simple concepts and, uh,I don't know.
I think these, your valuespirit, is finding more
(26:33):
acceptance in the general public, because it resonates with
people, because it's genuine andauthentic, like is that
something permeditated or justcame to be, like naturally and
organically?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
like this so, uh, I studied mathematics.
Oh wow, yeah quite a plot twistyeah, yeah, but the reason why I
say that is that I was not likea natural born uh, I didn't
have to read anything and Iunderstood it.
(27:04):
I had to work for it, but stillI managed to get my degree
there.
What mathematics learned me isthere is always a solution.
Just try what, the first.
If the first thing is notworking, try the next and the
next.
So it taught me there is alwaysa solution which comes in handy
(27:24):
with innovation, and I'm notscared for complex stuff.
But during my four years or fiveyears at university, I also had
the opportunity to pick somecourses myself.
So we were allowed to do thatand everybody was was choosing
(27:47):
this kind of traditional classesand I looked at psychology and
stuff like that and I then Ifound a course which was, um, I
don't know how you call it,journalism, but then scientific
journalism, and then I hadassignments that I had to
interview like physicists whowere doing a PhD on a topic I
(28:13):
had no idea about, and then Ihad to write down a piece that
everybody would understand.
So that really pushed me totranslate really complex stuff
to basic stuff that everybodycould read, and I think that was
a seed that was planted.
That I really like to do.
(28:35):
I like to translate complexstuff into very simple, easy to
understand things, because Ialso learned during my corporate
career that if it's going to becomplex, people don't accept it
, they walk away and nothingever happens.
But if you make it easy tounderstand and fun and maybe
(28:58):
also inspiring or maybe evenpushes for some critical
thinking or yeah, maybesometimes provoking, then
something happens right.
Then other people you tap intheir emotions and then you can
build on that forward.
So, um, long, long answer.
(29:20):
But I love to create, so I alsodo a lot with visuals.
Sometimes it's just much betterto have one visual than 10
pages, so I also put a lot oftime in.
When I'm on stage and doingkeynotes, I always have a lot of
visuals and people always saythat they like my visuals,
(29:42):
because I think that is also away to communicate a message.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
In fact, I think it's kind of complex to try to
explain your methodology,because one thing you mentioned
that really resonates with me isyou don't have an ideal
customer profile.
You don't have an idea, likeyou work for NGOs, you work for
startups, you work forcorporates, you work for this
and that which is sort of likewhat we do here, like when they
(30:12):
ask me like who's your idealcustomer?
So like I don't know, I don'tknow, like not that I don't know
, I do know.
It's like pretty much everybodyis.
If, if you want to work with me, you're my ideal customer,
right, but we don't have aprepackaged solution for sports
companies or for SMBs or forpublic administration.
(30:33):
Why?
Because we do bespoke stuff.
It's very artisanal, right?
I've got the feeling that yoursis the same approach, right?
You don't have a prepackagedmethodology.
You have some common points,right?
But you enter a company andit's a consultation process,
right?
How do you start buildingsomething for a company from day
(30:57):
zero, for instance?
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, I love that you say that, because I really
don't believe there is a onesize fits all approach to
anything.
So whoever wants to sell you aone a one size fits all approach
, I would walk away immediatelyif I would be a company.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Okay.
Yeah, right For innovation,like you say in general.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I mean in general, I, because I do, I believe in
there are frameworks that youcan use, but you you have to
make it modular, right.
So I, I have like a lot oftools I can use, but it's not
like okay, clients, are we goingto do a, b, c, d?
No, I'm like I think you needthis framework and maybe that
approach, and then I do thisworkshop to get create the right
(31:43):
mindset.
And then, with another customer, it's like totally different
because, yeah, I've seen so manydifferent kind of leadership
styles and environments that Ithink it's much more valuable to
.
But typically what I do is, whenI have long-term collaborations
(32:04):
with organizations, I try toget a sense of the organization.
So I visit the plans or I visitthe organization several times
and I try to work with teams sothat I really get a much better
understanding of what they areabout and what the people are
about and what the culture is.
And then I come to somesolutions or I start working,
(32:28):
but my assignments always startvery vague.
They call me and like, hey,simona, we need to do something
with innovation or change, canyou help us?
And then I always say, oh, yeah, sure, and that's how it starts
and we both know it's theirsource, sort of like a trust
base.
Like she has done well in thepast, so she will do well here
(32:53):
too.
And I believe that everyorganization you have a lot of
people who are motivated.
You have a lot of rebels Someare hidden who can help you
forward, to get the organizationmoving forward.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
That's a perfect assist, because I was going to
ask you know your methodologist.
You said like it's notprepackaged.
At the same time, you're alsolike rebellious in nature.
You've got these not aggressivebut a bit like blunt opinions
and so that come across as easyto dismiss by a big corporation
(33:29):
like, oh no, we don't like thatprofile.
It's a hard sell, right?
Yeah, it is.
So.
You know, it's mostly you startworking for our company because
of recommendation, because ofyour credentials in the past.
So, but how do you measure theimpact of your projects?
Is there any sort ofstandardized KPI in all of the
projects that you've done so far?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
True answer.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I assume it's no, there isn't right.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
No, but my clients are always very enthusiastic.
So yeah, how do you measure?
Speaker 1 (34:07):
the return on investment, but my clients are
always very enthusiastic.
I mentioned the return oninvestment in this kind of
project.
I don't really ask this toinnovation people and most of
the time it's like well, wedon't know.
Or sometimes it's just likerevenue and, for instance,
corporate venturing right orcorporate innovation.
It's like usually somethingwill not work but because they
have an innovation departmentthey've got better employee
(34:29):
retention.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, and that's enough.
Yeah, right, wow.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah, so I worked for Chanel, right?
Did you know or not?
Chanel?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Chanel.
Yeah, I remember that, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember
that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, it's funny because, well, you only see this
, but I never have a bag or soI'm not like the typical Chanel
person.
Yeah, and then they asked me,hey, would you like to help us
out?
And I was like, are you sure?
Because, well, look at me.
And I also said, like, mycompany name is Rebella, are you
(35:07):
really?
That's not just because itsounds nice.
And they say, yeah, yeah, wereally need that.
So I helped the CIO of Europefor two or three years and my
main assignment was to boost theinnovation mindset of the team.
How do you measure that?
So I gave workshops and Iexperimented in some boutiques
(35:27):
and stuff like that, yeah, butpeople were starting to ask
different kind of questionsbecause I was always challenging
them.
So maybe that was enough forthe CIO that he saw that his
team was growing, or yeah, yeah,because that's that's the thing
(35:49):
, like in innovation.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Like, for instance, I remember in that event in
corporate summit 2020, one ofthe somebody shared that I don't
remember which was itDefinitely I think it was not
you but somebody said like look,one of the hard truths of
corporate innovation is thatjust by saying that you're
(36:12):
innovating, the share value goesup and that's enough.
You're getting paid back andfeedback and you know price per
share, exposure or advertisingyeah I'm like, wow, that is
terrible yeah, at the same timeit's like oh, it works, you know
yeah, but, and so I reallydon't like that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
So early on we talked about result driven and I get
really excited if I accomplishsomething, if I really am able
to make a change.
But for me, making a change isnot only implementing a new
service or improving somethingor coming up with a total new
business idea, getting moreconfident in that they can be
(37:07):
themselves, that they are ableto ask questions that they
didn't dare to ask before, thatthey start to think more
critically, that they learn howto do that in a constructive way
.
So that's not destructive,because I also know some rebels
who can be quite destructive.
I've been there too.
Sounds like me, but I thinkyeah, so that's also for me a
(37:31):
big result, and I get quite alot of messages from people who
say so.
I also write this newsletterevery two weeks.
I don't know if you have seenit, but it's called Ask Dr Rebel
, and then people can ask me anykind of question about
rebellious behavior.
And it can be a rebel, but itcan also be a coworker or a
manager, and what I try to do isgive like a different kind of
(37:54):
perspective on a topic.
So the other day I wrotesomething about yes, but,
because everybody's alwayscomplaining about people who say
yes, but, but I think they'revery valuable.
Well, you need them.
You don't need them duringideation, but you need them
during implementation, or uh.
So people have ideas aboutrebels and I try to flip that
(38:18):
and I try to say but look at thegood side of this kind of
behavior, yeah, so for me, agreat result is also creating an
environment where people can bethemselves when there are
(38:39):
rebels.
They are not avoided or butthat they're actually embraced
and that their skills areactually used to make the team
result even better.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
So, yeah, but certainly team satisfaction is
not how we say it.
Like doesn't sign contracts,right.
There must be something else,at least in the short term.
We know innovation might taketime.
Some innovation might be likereflect on the branding and it
(39:14):
comes back seven years afteryou've left the company, right.
But there have to be some sortof like goals or milestones or
KPIs you have to hit, Otherwisethey don't renew your contract,
Right?
So how do you approach this?
Is that something that yourclients define?
You define Like how does itwork in your methodology?
(39:37):
Yeah, I know I'm resultsoriented and I don't know, like
maybe I'm being too much of anengineer oriented and I don't
know, like maybe I'm being toomuch of an engineer.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It's um, uh, I, with many clients I don't have like a
real specific kpi, as crazy asit sounds, and, and some clients
it's.
Then it's me who decides tostop the contract, and not the
client.
Most often, most often aftertwo, three years, it's like okay
, the energy is out.
Now I think I'm I've I've getthe ball moving or get the
(40:11):
things moving, and now it's upto you.
And during the two or threeyears that I'm working with with
organizations, I also try to um, lead, guide people or learn
people how to facilitate andstuff like that, so that it
still can continue when I'm away.
(40:31):
So, um, I teach people how todo things, um, and then after
two, three years, then my timeis.
Then for me it feels like okay,I think now is the time to
leave.
So most of the time it's mewho's leaving, it's not the
(40:54):
client who says okay, simona,thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So you're creating some sort of sense of scarcity
as well, like, or putting somesense of urgency that, look, I
typically don't renew mycontracts after year two, and so
that signals that you're inhigh demand, right, and there's
somebody else waiting with acontract for you and they're
like, okay, fine, we'll dowhatever, right?
(41:21):
Do they actually take action,or not really because they're
slow movers?
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah, it depends.
Different kind of clientsdifferent.
So yeah, I don't know ifclients think like that.
It's just for me, I really wantto do the best for the company
and it's not that I want tocreate some kind of sense around
me like, hey, yeah, it's maybehard to explain and sometimes I
(41:54):
have to think about my own.
Sometimes I'm reflecting onwhat am I doing, what am I
bringing for organizations, howare things going?
Is this what I want or do Ineed to be more specific and
define KPIs?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
But yeah, no worries, I don't know.
I get the feeling because whenI was freelancing 15 years ago
Jesus Christ, that reveals myage I was like that just because
I didn't need it, right, I wasdoing a project here and there I
was like, ah, this project,yeah, this other e-commerce not
(42:35):
interesting?
Right, yet another website orWordPress?
Like, no, not gonna touch thatshit.
Um, so I, I can totally relateto that and so if you play on
your terms, it's much more fun.
Um, let's, let's give a coupleminutes to like the, the, the
newsletter you mentioned and thebook, right.
Um, building a personal brandlike you have built over the
(42:55):
years, yeah, comes with acommunity, with a tribe, right,
I don't know if that'sintentional or not, but I didn't
know about the newsletter, Iknew about the book and so, but
it comes also with a high price,which is the pressure of having
to put out original contentevery now and then.
I don't know what is your ideamachine Like.
(43:19):
Three months ago, I alsolaunched my own personal
newsletter, right, and I havebig opinions that I cannot
express on the Mars Base blogsometimes, and so it's more like
personal stuff.
Fine, there's a clearerdistinction For you.
Business and your own opinionsare probably the same.
Right, because you're a personand a personal brand, but not a
(43:43):
company, right?
Exactly, yeah, how do you, howdo you work with that and how?
How is the public react?
Reacting?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
it's um, so I get my I.
I'm overloaded with ideas, sothere is no problem?
Yeah, there isn't so, and I getmy inspiration from very
different kind of sources,mostly not thick books, but
(44:11):
every now and then, but a lot ofpodcasts I listen.
I randomly listen podcasts, sosometimes it's like, okay, this
is someone.
I'm part of a WhatsApp grouphere in Holland and it's called
the Podcast Club and a lot ofpodcasts are shared and it's a
very diverse group.
So a lot of diversity ofpodcasts and it forces me to
(44:32):
listen to stuff that are outsideof my bubble and it's fun
because it brings me new stuff.
Are outside of my bubble andit's fun because it brings me
new stuff.
So I get a lot of ideas andsometimes it's just a simple
sentence that makes that's forme the start of a whole new
(44:54):
newsletter.
So now, for instance, I'mworking on the newsletter about
focus, because I think there'stoo much focus on focus.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Yeah, I think sometimes you need to let go.
And then that's because I wasin an organization and everybody
was pushing each other and thensomeone was looking outside the
window and then others werecomplaining about that and I
said, said, well, probably thisguy is getting now his ideas,
and so what I try to do with mynewsletter is make people think.
(45:32):
So I just mentioned about, yes,but everybody's always
complaining about that and Igive the opposite perspective on
that, and I think this is alsowhat my brand is all about.
It's like, okay, what I say,you don't necessarily have to
agree with what I say, but forme, a discussion is not about
(45:54):
who is winning the discussion,but a discussion is about that.
You make the other person thinkRight, I love it when I have
conversations.
When I walk away, I'm like shit, I didn't think about it that
way, and that's also what I wantto do.
That's also what my brand isabout.
And my books you say one book, Ihave three, it's a series.
(46:17):
One book I have three, it's uh,it's a series.
Um is I want to bring the rebelperspective, the, the rebel
mindset, from differentperspectives.
So one is for the rebel, it'suh themselves, because it's
called oh no, we have a oh no,I'm a rebel.
Now what?
Yeah?
And and then I have one formanagers.
It's like, oh shit, our rebelsare leaving.
(46:39):
I want to bridge these worldsbecause I see so much
polarization in the world ingeneral, but also on the work
floor, between rebels or peoplewho can think differently,
versus people who followestablishment, and I want to
(47:00):
show that you need both and it'sokay.
So that's what my brand is allabout, and then knowing that
it's not hard to write, to findmy topics and write or publish
about that.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
From that perspective , Is that somehow like bringing
you new clients Because you havebecome a thought leader, right?
And so when you have a trulydistinct voice like yours that
creates a drive and thatattracts also potential
customers, like, hey, I likewhat she's saying, I want to
(47:43):
work with her, right, uh, itattracts talent as well, but I
don't know if you're hiring oryou're still working alone, but
uh, yeah, um, it happens to us.
But uh also brings clientsbecause you think differently
yeah, and and so what I alsosaid?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
it also pushes away clients because they're like, oh
, she's too rebellious, butthat's fine, because then we
were the match in the firstplace.
But I often get requests forkeynotes because people read
articles.
I also publish for the largestmanagement platform here in
Holland.
I write monthly columns forthem, so that's also fun and um,
(48:20):
yeah.
But so what I also see is youasked me, so ask me about.
How do you get to originalcontent?
Yeah, and it's what I strugglewith a lot is that, for instance
, on linkedin, you see a lot ofposts that get thousands of
likes and then I look at it andthen I think the content is like
(48:41):
it's fucking garbage, right,yeah, yeah, it's optimized for
the algorithm I know, I know,but that I'm like I really don't
want to go there, I don't wantto play the game and then but
but sometimes I'm like then Ithink I have written something
really cool and it doesn'tresonate.
(49:02):
You really have to be resilientto keep going, because it's easy
to quit.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, for me.
I share that frustration.
When I open LinkedIn and I seethat mostly it's garbage, I'm
like how is this fucking shitgetting 10 000 likes?
Um?
And I put some interestingthought or like maybe the next
event or whatever blog post.
I spent five hours writing yeah, it gets one thumbs up yeah,
(49:34):
I'm like this is horrible.
At the same time, I'm thinkinglike well, in the long term,
this other prefabricated chatGPD generated garbage will be
dismissed, it will be forgotten,and the ones having like an
authentic vision, solution,discourse and all of that, we
(49:57):
will be highly esteemed.
I would say, like we will beremembered.
Right, yeah, we'll havedetractors of course, many but
it will be remembered because weare we're we're sharing
original content.
Yeah, not like stuff that it'sframed to or design architected
to kind of like fit in intoalgorithm but in two years it
(50:20):
disappears because no one isgoing to like all of these
bullet points with emojis andwhatever like optimized for
LinkedIn.
It just doesn't resonate withanybody.
Right, it's like nowadays youcreate stuff that creates
outreach, it performs like.
I tried a a few weeks ago.
I did an experiment and withina couple weeks I posted three or
(50:43):
four things out of my scope,but they created outrage, right?
Yeah and uh, just to test thewaters yeah and it went boom, it
went massive right.
And so now I'm starting to dosome shit posting on LinkedIn,
basically like ditchingcompanies like Lobo and stuff
like that, but it's just hittingmassive scale.
I'm like this is horrible.
(51:04):
I mean it works to get mymessage out there.
It's original content, don'tget me wrong, but that's not
what I want to be known for.
Yeah Right, so you have thesecognitive dissonance of like
saying, saying like I reallydon't want to do that.
At the same time, dopamine hitsand the reach.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
If you leave off exposure, you have to do it, so
I understand why people sell out.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah, no, I still keep my rebellious mind.
I'm like I'm going to stickwith what I do.
And then I don't care, but Idon't want to follow the crowd
here, and then I don't care, butI don't want to follow the
crowd here.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
I'm just going to continue, but it's difficult and
it's tempting to go along withwhat everybody else does, but
yeah, it is difficult because,like well, I mean, if you
there's this saying ininnovation right, that there is
if you follow everybody else'sor someone else's paths, you're
never going to go somewhere new,right, yeah, and so I
(52:04):
understand.
At the same time, it works.
So sometimes you got to do itto get from A to B, because in
point B you will have moreresources and if you are
rebellious too early, maybe thatwill close all of the doors.
So it's a compromise, it's atrade-off that is very
complicated to solve.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
Yes, we only know if we meet again in a couple of
years, and then we can look backand then say, well, did it work
or not?
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, Well, I mean to your point, seeing like
sometimes it just like itqualifies your clients right.
I know like, for instance,we've been very political in
certain things publicly as acompany, and I know we're never
going to work with certaincompanies because they will be
like oh no, we don't want towork with them.
Like 2017, when the Catalanindependence process was going
(52:52):
on, like we're super publicabout that, we're in favor,
we're pro-Catalan independence,and we probably lost some
potential clients At the sametime, some companies were like
we want to work with you guys.
So it qualified.
It just removed the filter.
It accelerated the process,right?
Maybe we lost some potentialcandidates that they will never
work for us?
I don't know.
If you don't want to work withme because of my political views
(53:15):
, then I don't want to work withyou, right?
I totally respect differentopinions, but if you have a
problem with that, then youdon't have a place here.
Simone, before wrapping it up,we got a signature question in
the podcast that totally caughtyou off guard, because it
totally catches everybody offguard.
But it's basically what hasbeen your most expensive fuck up
(53:36):
in the company that you have toown up to it.
It's got to be yours.
Something you did, a decisionof yours that was like, oh wow,
yeah, that cost a lot of moneyto the company.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Oh, shit, that's a difficult one.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Take your time.
I share thousands of my fuckups every now and then, so
probably one per episode.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, you, you asked the most expensive one, right?
So that means yeah, or?
Speaker 1 (54:06):
it has to be expensive, like probably.
But uh, some people say like,oh yeah, we totally squandered,
like we built a prototype wedidn't need and we never
launched that.
We spent like 100k on that orsomething like that.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
Well, when I was at Voiling there's one example, but
there are more but when I wasat Voiling, I had the vision to
work on a platform that wouldrecommend the opposite, so that
you would not like the sort oflike the recommendations, like
(54:40):
the obvious things.
If you like this, then you likethat.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
All right.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
I wanted to do, to have like a surprise in there.
So I said I wanted to like thatwe have a recommender and then
said, if you like this, and thencome up with something very
surprising, but still a match.
But not something verysurprising, but still a match.
So we spent like, I think,100,000 euros to work out that
(55:04):
idea, because it was also basedon personalization.
So we needed to personalize andthen say, okay, we're not going
to do the obvious thing, butthe non-obvious.
But it was hard to get peopleconvinced, but I'd spend like
100,000 euros on that, I think.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Nice.
Thank you for sharing.
I remember we had Bisset Smartywho used to be the COO or CFO
back in the day and he sharedsomething about willing.
He was in charge of thecheckout process, for whatever
reason, and then he triedsomething else, but in the
process of doing so he removedthe credit card validation and
so for like a day they couldn'tcharge customers.
(55:44):
They lost like I don't know howmany hundreds of thousands of
of of euros in revenue becausepeople couldn't fucking buy the
plane tickets.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
So yeah, exactly.
And then it went viral, andthen everybody yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Well, one more minute for you to share.
I'm rolling out the red carpethere, so what have you got in
store to share?
Like, what can we expect of you?
New books, new Plug in yournewsletter as well, so?
Anything you want to say andshare.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, so books I started with one, it became
three because someone said to meoh, it's going to be a series,
so probably there are going tobe more editions.
I'm thinking about a rebel toolbook, so that helps you to
become more rebellious or todeal with rebels.
There are already a lot ofrebel tools on my website, so if
(56:33):
you want a preview of the toolsyou can assess your Taylor
Swift innovation-ness on mywebsite and all that kind of
crazy stuff.
I do that for fun.
My newsletter if you want tosubscribe, you can subscribe on
LinkedIn, but also on Substack,whatever you want, and I would
(56:55):
appreciate if people would dothat, if they really like it and
sometimes let me know that theylike it, so that all the effort
I put in is also not fornothing.
Right that you write for awhole day on the newsletter and
then you don't get any response?
So it would be nice if peoplealso sometimes say, hey, that
(57:16):
was a really nice thought orwhatever that's it.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Yeah, let me echo that I.
I know the feeling, I shared afeeling and then when you ask
people directly, they're like no, I totally love it, like I like
that one and this one.
When you talk about this andthat, I'm like, then fucking
reply to it, motherfuckerbecause, it feels like talking
to the void, you know, but I Iunderstand.
Like you don't know, you canactually reply to a newsletter,
(57:40):
right yeah?
Speaker 2 (57:41):
and if you have friends over there in Barcelona
or wherever who want athought-provoking but fun
keynote, they can also reach outto me.
I think more rebelliousness onstage.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
I assume you don't get free flights from Willing
for Life, right?
Because?
You haven't worked there andalso not for KLM.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
No.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
No no.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
But I did an assignment for KLM and that was
during COVID, and then they hadno money and I said, oh, you can
pay me in business classtickets.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
And they did.
Oh wow, I'm open to.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
How do you say that?
Yeah, exchange, I'm open to.
How do you say that to?
Speaker 1 (58:19):
exchange right, so it's kind of like swapping the
services exactly nice.
Simone, thank you, yes, thankyou, for being here looking
forward to.
I will sign up to thenewsletter and sounds like
something interesting.
Hopefully we can coincide inanother event exactly in
Barcelona.
That's it, thanks thanks forthe time and Coinsight in
(58:40):
another event, exactly inBarcelona.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
That's right, thanks.
Thanks for the time.
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