November 28, 2023 • 49 mins
The World Health Organisation has declared loneliness as a global health priority.
Stats show that young people feel more lonely than any generation before but it seems as though we should be the most connected because of technology. So why are we all feeling lonely when we have a phone in our hand most hours of the day?
Joining the podcast today is Dr Ali Walker is a Human Connection Scientist & Mediator with a PhD in group dynamics and the author of click and clash. Ali previously joined the podcast in April for an episode called Is your name wi-fi cause I'm feeling a connection - Talking connection and compatibility with Dr Ali Walker.
We chat:
- How we feel so lonely in a world where we've never been more connected through social media
- How social media creates fake connection
- Solitude v Loneliness
- How introverts and extroverts experience loneliness differently
- The long term effects of loneliness
- How to 'fix' your loneliness
You can read Ali's book (and it's one of our favourites) Click or Clash
And check out her website here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Life on Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose
lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their
elders past and present.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
recorded on Drug Wallamuta Land Hut Eyes and welcome back
to another episode of Life on Cut. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany,
and we have such a special interview and conversation for
(00:30):
you guys today heading into the Christmas period. This is
something that I mean, we've touched on it quite a
few years now, but it's something that always comes up
this time of year, a time of you when you're
supposed to feel the most connected, a time of you
when you're supposed to prioritize your friendships, prioritize your relationships,
prioritize all of the things in life that have and
give you meaning. But it's also a time for so
(00:52):
many people when you are lacking in those areas of
your life where you can feel incredibly lowly. It's almost
like it puts a spotlight on your feelings where when
the world is telling you that Christmas is such a
happy time, and then if you're dealing with these feelings
of loneliness or loss or anxiety, that it can really
highlight the space between where you are at and how
(01:12):
you're supposed to be feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, and who The World Health Organization has literally just
declared that loneliness is a global health priority. Like this
is a pretty big thing, and this is a pretty
serious issue. We also have some stats from the National
Youth Mental Health Foundation. Nearly two thirds of young people
say they feel lonely and left out, like two thirds.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That is a huge amount, which is insane when you
think that we live in a world which is so
incredibly connected. Like we look at social media, we look
at the ease of which community and I say community
with like you know, Bunny is quote unquote but like
that it should be access whereas during this time, it's
actually something that even though we have accessibility to it,
people still feel so incredibly lonely at the same time.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
You know, something I found really interesting though, is when
you think of loneliness. If I asked you, Laura, like loneliness,
age demographic do you think would experience the most loneliness?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I mean originally, I mean before I read the stats,
because I know the answers to this, but I would
have attributed it to the elderly. I would have attributed
loneliness to sitting alone in a nursing home and your
family not coming and visiting you anymore, and that feeling
of looking into the future of your life and seeing
that there's not that much left of it. And I've
thought that that would have been the most lonely time
(02:23):
of life.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, because I feel like as you age, it's highly
likely you've lost more people in your life. And that's
just a general blanket statement. But this year it has
been found that young Australians age between fifteen and twenty
four experience loneliness more than older Australians fifty five plus,
which really really surprised me.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think that this conversation could
have come at a better time, to be honest. And
we're talking to doctor Ali Walker, who we've spoken to
on the podcast before. We spoke to Ali around connection
and that has such an obvious link to loneliness. So
the connections that we have in our relationships and to
people can either make us feel fulfilled and like we
have community around us, or can add to this feeling loneliness.
(03:01):
The other thing as well, is, and I think we
never really speak about loneliness in this way, but it's
this idea that it's not just a feeling. It can
have physiological effects on our body. And the research that
was done has shown that for people who feel chronic loneliness,
it can increase things like an early death, the likelihood
of stroke, and it can also increase the risk of
dementia by up to fifty percent, which is just so
(03:23):
incredibly alarming. So if you have ever or do at
times feel incredibly lonely, even though you may be surrounded
by people, just know that you are not alone in
those feelings. And I hope that this conversation brings you
a little bit of solace and it also gives you
some tools as to how to manage those feelings.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, we cover a bunch of topics with Ali. We're
going to get into solitude versus loneliness, how introverts and
extroverts experienced loneliness differently, because that's really really interesting, the
long term effects of loneliness and how you can fix
your loneliness. So it's a really important episode for us,
and we hope you get something out of it too.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We had doctor Ali Walker on the podcast back in
I think it was January. She is a human connection
specialist and a mediator with a PhD in group dynamics.
She's also the author of Click and Clash, which is
what we were speaking about on that episode, all around
talking about connections and compatibilities. That episode was is your
name wi Fi? Because I'm feeling a connection? You can
(04:19):
go about better names, wasn't it. You can go back
and have a listen to it. We'll put all the
details in the show notes if you want to go
back and have a listen to that app. But we
spoke about something on that episode and we touched on
it very very briefly, and that was loneliness. This epidemic
of loneliness. We've seen it spoken about so much across
social media, and in a world where we are supposed
to be so connected, how is it that we can
(04:41):
be and feel so lonely. Now we've been speaking about
doing this episode for so long, and I think we
are all very excited that finally it is happening. Ali,
welcome back to Life on card.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I think this is going to be a conversation that
for so many people, we're going to be able to
relate to it, because loneliness is something that we are
all going to feel at different points in time in
our lives. But I do think it's so interesting, And
like I said earlier, we live in this time where
we are so hyper connected. We have so many networks
across social media. There are so many activities that we
can do, like, we couldn't be more connected, but the
(05:17):
disconnect also couldn't be further from the truth. For a
lot of people. What is it? And I guess the
difference between being alone in life and having solitude versus
feeling lonely.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I can't
think of a more important one, and in this time,
because so many people that I speak to are suffering,
and they're suffering in a way that I don't even
think they can identify what's going on. And so it's
really important to be clear about what we're talking about
when we refer to loneliness. So loneliness is simply the
(05:50):
negative feelings that arise when there is a gap between
what we want to be experiencing and what we are experiencing.
That's it. That's why it is so general and so
all encompassing. So if you are on your own, and
often when I'm giving workshops or talks on this, and
I'll say to people, put your hand up if you
enjoy being on your own, and the majority of people
(06:12):
in the audience will put their hands up and they're
sort of laughing about it, like I love being on
my own. Now, that is not loneliness. That is solitude. Now.
Solitude is when there is a positive feeling because there
is no gap between what you want to be experiencing
and what you are experiencing. So I think everyone can relate.
If you've had a massive day, come home and whatever
(06:33):
it is that you do to unwind. You might be
going for a run, you might hop in the bath,
you might go and have a sauna, whatever it is.
That's not loneliness because that's exactly what you want to
be feeling at that time. Loneliness happens when you have
an idea of what you would like to be experiencing,
but there is a big gap between that and what
you actually are experiencing in your reality. So I speak
(06:56):
to people who feel lonely at work because they might
be in troverted, and they're surrounded by people and they're
in constant meetings and they just feel like they cannot
have a moment to themselves. They are lonely, but they
don't necessarily experience it as loneliness. They might feel overwhelmed
or anxious, but actually the feeling is loneliness. So just
(07:16):
remember it's the negative feeling that arises from the gap
between what you want and what you're getting.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I think it's interesting when you say this idea of solitude,
and it's like that we can all enjoy solitude, but
does there come a point where too much solitude can
then be a negative impact, like it can then lead
to feeling lonely?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Anyway I can answer this, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Sometimes we can cut ourselves off a bit and be like,
you know, I'm happy being on my own. I'm happy
being on my own. But if you're not nurturing those connections,
then when you are lonely, all of a sudden, you're like,
I'm on my own.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Absolutely, there's a point where think of it like your
appetite just for eating, so you might feel full and
then feel like, Okay, I really don't need to eat
for several hours or a few hours however long it is.
But then you get to a point where, Okay, I'm
hungry again. It's exactly the same with human connection. Human
connection is our greatest psychological need. So when we say
(08:11):
that it's a need, it's something that we have to
fulfill or else we die or else we stop thriving.
So psychologically, it's not something that we can opt out of.
And this is what I'm so passionate about talking to
people about because we need to understand that this is
it's something that we have to work on. So I
(08:32):
don't know about you, but I get to the point
where if I haven't been working on my physical health,
if I haven't exercised in a couple of days, if
I've been eating crap, I will get to a point
where I go, Okay, enough, I've got to start being
serious about this. I've got to invest in this. I've
got to eat some good meals. I've got to get
out and exercise. I feel that something kicks in in
my body because it doesn't feel right. I want people
(08:53):
to be in the same way, aware of their human
connection instinct. So, Okay, I've had some time on my own,
I'm starting to feel a bit restless, and for everyone
it might be different. Some people, it might you might
feel a little bit sad, you might feel a little
bit anxious, you might feel a little bit depressed. Loneliness
will show up for people in different ways, so at
some point there will be a feeling that will kick
(09:16):
in that is your signal to go and connect with
other people.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Do you think that they can live alongside each other
simultaneously and in some form of harmony. And I say
that because I have lived alone for many many years.
I've been on my own for many many years, and
I love it. I don't feel lonely. But I was
just trying to understand and put myself into your statement
at the start that it's the difference between what you
(09:41):
want and what you don't have. So I really want
to live with my partner, but I'm so happy on
my own at the same time, so I actually don't
know if I'm lonely.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So I would just say that the gap for you
is not that wide because both realities would be great.
So you're happy with your current reality, and also you'd
be happy living with your partner if you were there
feeling profoundly lonely living on your own and you really
wanted to live with your partner, then your loneliness would
be greater. It sounds for you like you have a
(10:16):
both and rather than an either or, so the gap
is just not as wide. And it also seems like
from I mean, we don't know each other that well,
but it seems like you get a lot of your
connection needs met from other sources. From my dog, Well,
you've got each other, and you've got your huge community
that you connect with. You've got so many other sources
(10:37):
of connection, so you're not just there. And this is
then leads to the next one, which I talk about
diversifying our connections.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, I just wanted to make the point for anyone
else that was sitting at home thinking, oh, if they're
not in a relationship or they live on their own, like,
that doesn't necessarily because you want something, you want that relationship,
that doesn't necessarily mean you're lonely, because I think there
are a lot of people that battle with that idea
of I must be lonely because I'm alone. But it
doesn't They can live in harmony. And I think that's
(11:04):
really important for people to understand because it is a
really hard concept to understand that how can you not
be lonely if you live on your own all the time.
How can you not be lonely if you don't have
that many friends. But I think it's really important for
people to think, Okay, just because I am on my
own doesn't necessarily mean I'm at the depths of my despair.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
No, of course not. And in fact, I've met some
people who want to live on their own. That is
their preferred state. And this is where my book came from.
And I know we've spoken about this in the past,
but that's why it's so important to be talking about
loneliness through the lens of these two concepts of your
frequency and your intensity. Because all of us have different
(11:42):
connection profiles. So if you have someone who is introverted
and quite reserved and really prefers to be in their
own world, living alone would actually be their preferred state.
So when we're saying to people what loneliness is, that's
why I keep it very general and say it's the
gap between what you want and what you have. For
(12:04):
some people, what they want is to live alone. So
I've met people who and I say, oh, because they
come up on my profile as being low frequency, low intensity,
and I say, do you live alone? Someone's once said
to me no, And I'm annoyed about it because I've
got someone staying with me at the moment. Or someone
might say yes, and my nearest neighbor is sixty k's away,
and that's how I like it. So I don't think
we can put a label on a physical state or
(12:27):
a physical reality and say that will make you lonely.
What we need to do is say what kind of
connector are you and what are your connection needs? Rather
than putting labels and saying people must be in a relationship,
people must live with others, people must go out to
work in an office. Absolutely not. Everybody's different in the
(12:47):
same way that we all eat differently, we all have
different dietary requirements. I don't think you can put rules
on connection.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Do you think in today's society we're prioritizing the wrong
types of connections that we're not necess necessarily leaning into
communities or people whose relationships have a deep and meaningful
impact on us. But because of like the social media
side of things, because of this instant gratification, because of
having like big but loosely connected networks, we kind of
(13:14):
feel like we've got people around us, but can't quite
pinpoint why it is that we're not feeling that connection.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I think that social media and connecting via digital means
is a little bit like sugar is to food. So
you can go through your entire day eating food that's
not great for you, but feel like you're eating So yes,
I've eaten, Yes I've eaten, but is it nourishing food?
And in the same way, I think of social media
(13:42):
like that, I think of connecting over digital means like that.
So absolutely it has a function, but it should be
a way to enhance existing fundamental connections with deep roots,
deep sources. It shouldn't be in place of that. So
I was doing a radio segment last night on love bombing.
(14:02):
So I was talking about how it's actually really common
now for younger people to be love bombed, not only
in romantic relationships but in friendships. And so love bombing
is just when someone is overwhelming you initially with that
connection and then goes to a period of devaluing and
discarding or ghosting you after that, leaving the person feeling
(14:23):
what happened. It's like a whirlwind. And I think that
the reason we have the ingredients for love bombing is
because you can actually fake connection online, so you can
send someone ten WhatsApp messages in a row or a
photo of here I am now, and it's almost like
fake intimacy because it hasn't built up over time and
it's not based on genuine connection. So I think a
(14:46):
lot of people are thinking, yeah, I've got these friends,
I've got these people who really care about me, and
we share the daily details of our lives, but it's
not actually built on time and an authentic convers station
and connection and experience together, real experience. So you can
absolutely have constant WhatsApps with someone if it is also
(15:09):
balanced with that authentic time together and genuine conversation, because
research has shown there's just no replacement for in person
and even this, we're able to see each other's facial expressions,
we're able to connect with each other face to face.
Even this is more meaningful than texting or sending snapchats
or WhatsApp messages. So I think it's just about remembering
(15:31):
that it can't be a replacement for genuine connection. I
think we get into trouble when we look at our
friendships that are based primarily on those means of connection
and think that they are deep and strong and enduring.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
What do you think about I think it's a really
common concept for people to say that they feel lonely
in a relationship. They might have been in a relationship
for a long time. It might be a marriage, it
might be a couple of years, might be a couple
of months, but they're like, I have this person that
I love, they love me, but I feel really alone
and lonely in that relationship. What are some of the
reasons people experience that When you're.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
In a marriage, when you're in a relationship with someone,
you are constantly with each other on the basis of
frequency and intensity. Frequency is just how much time together,
how many conversations. Intensity is what type of connection. Are
we playing cards together? Are we sitting watching a show
or a sports game or watching TV? Low intensity? Or
are we talking and making eye contact and having an
(16:29):
intense emotional connection high intensity. So when people feel lonely
in a relationship, it's because there's a gap. It's because
you might have a partner who is a low frequency connector,
which means you're there going do you do you want
to go for a weekend away? Do you want to
go out for dinner? Do you want to go for breakfast?
Do you want to go for a walk? And they're no,
I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. But I love you,
(16:49):
but I don't want to do those things. So you
have a frequency mismatch that can be the first reason
you might feel lonely. So someone's there thinking, hold on,
we're meant to love each other, and you don't even
want to go for breakfast with me. You don't even
want to go out for dinner with me on a
Saturday night, And so you've just got different preferences when
it comes to how much connection together. My boyfriend in
first year UNI classic frequency mismatch. So he was low frequency.
(17:13):
I'm high frequency, and he would kind of get in
touch with me every couple of days every and when
you're at UNI nothing else to do. I look now
and think what did I do with my time? I
was working and I was studying, But in terms of
free time, I wanted to see him and talk to
him every day. I didn't necessarily have to see him
every day, but most of my friends had boyfriends that
(17:35):
they saw a lot, and he was low frequency, and
I would sort of say to him, it's okay, we
don't have to be together, and I give him an out,
like you don't if you're not into me, and he
would genuinely say, no, I really want to be with you.
I really But then how do you ask that next question?
But why don't you ring me every day? You don't?
And that's just a frequency of incompatibility and frequency. Now,
(17:57):
that's the first reason you can feel lonely. I felt
really lonely that relationship. Second reason you can feel lonely
is an intensity mismatch or gap. So you have someone
who is a low intent. Now, typically my research shows
men tend to be low intensity, women tend to be
high intensity. No rocket science there, but I do actually
have the data to show that that is the case.
Doesn't mean that men can't be high intensity women can't
(18:19):
be low intensity, Obviously we have exceptions. So if you
have two people in a relationship and one is low intensity,
they will want to connect using ways of being together
that don't necessarily involve talking. So imagine you've been waiting
all week to see this person and you're a high
intensity connector, and all you want to do is talk
(18:40):
to them and understand them and feel like you've had
a really deep and meaningful connection through conversation. And this
person says, do you want to go to a movie?
Or do you want to go and see a concert?
Or do you want to go to the gym. Now,
if you're a high intensity connector, you might then feel
lonely and think, well, I've been waiting to to see you.
(19:00):
All I want to do is talk to you. And
you want to go to the gym or you want
to go to see an NRL game? What are you
talking about? Do you even want to spend time with me?
And that is simply an intensity gap, because the high
intensity person is saying, I want to connect with you
through talking. I want to go out for dinner, I
want to go out for drinks. I want to have
(19:22):
a high intensity emotional experience with you where I can
let my guard down, share my feelings, go into full disclosure.
Because that's what love looks like for that person, whereas
love for the other person it's slower, it's more about
actions than words. And so this is where when people
say to me that they feel lonely in a relationship,
typically then the next line will be he doesn't talk
(19:44):
to me, or she makes me feel like I'm not
good enough for her or nothing I do is good enough.
And then also that can be reversed absolutely depending on
the personality of the partners. And so then it's all
about getting the other person to understand this is not
personal to you. It's not as though this person. So
let's go back to my boyfriend in UNI. It's not
(20:07):
as though if he was with another girl he'd be
calling her every day. That's his preference for Oh, actually
I hope not. We'll never know. But knowing him now,
reflecting on that, as I can now from my perspective,
that's him. That's just his frequency preference, and that's just
how he has friendships and relationships. So the hardest part
(20:30):
is not taking it personally. And I remember, I think
I may have mentioned this in the last interview we
talked about my husband and I used to go out
for dinner and it would almost feel awkward, and then
we actually I had to go. But we're great. We are,
you know, nine out of ten compatible, eight out of
ten compatible. Why is it so weird to sit at
a table and look at each other when we work
(20:52):
so well in so many other ways? And so then
we started going on those day dates, and we started
going for walks, and we started doing other things. We
started going for an ocean walk and swim and then
we go and have a quick dinner afterwards. But the
focus wasn't on that intense eye contact, deep talking connection
because that for him is not his preferred mode. So, yeah,
(21:13):
if you're lonely in a relationship, it doesn't mean you
shouldn't be together. It's the one thing I want to say.
And it's just about finding out your preferences for connection
and then just experimenting with what works for both of you.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Do you think that there's times in life, like whether
it's milestones or situations that happen to people that obviously
impact your happiness. You know, we say that in relationships
it could be this mismatch in the frequency of which
you're showing up or how you like to have connection.
But can it not also be circumstantial, like the things
that happen to you in your life obviously make you
(21:46):
feel more lonely of course.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And in fact, my research has shown that when people
have experienced some kind of shock or tragedy or some
kind of grief in their life, it absolutely affects the
way that connect. So I interviewed a woman who was
going through breast cancer treatment, and she reported that her
frequency stayed the same, but her intensity went down, so
(22:11):
she still wanted to be around people as much, she
didn't want to talk because she had enough going on
in her head. So other people who I've worked with,
I've worked with injured workers who might have had a
psychological injury at work or a physical injury, so they've
lost their social identity, they've lost their ability to work,
they've totally changed their way that they live their life.
(22:32):
And absolutely generally what will happen is people's frequency, so
how much connection they want will go down.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
What type of effect does loneliness in general have on us? Like,
I mean, we all know it emotionally affects us and
makes us feel sad, But what are the long term
impacts and why is it something that we need to address.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
It's hard to keep this answer upbeat because of the
impact that it does have on us, So I'll start
with some basic Okay, so the mental health impact, So
it's more likely if you're profoundly lonely, I'm talking about
chronic loneliness, because sometimes people come up for you and
say so should I get out more? How often should
I be going out? And they've started to panic. This
is people who are chronically lonely, who feel like they
(23:16):
have no power to do anything about it. What it
can do is it can make us more susceptible to depression, anxiety,
mental health repercussions. Older people are more likely to age faster,
so they're more likely to develop dementia, Alzheimer's, or just
go into decline in physical and mental ways. It has
(23:36):
mental health impacts, but it also is worse for us
than smoking, obesity, and substance abuse. We need to sort
of remember I go back to it being our greatest
psychological need. It's a need meaning that if it is
not met, all sorts of things will start to happen
in terms of decline. So our physical health time spent
asleep when you go to bed, you're not asleep in
(23:58):
your bed as long, more likely to be up through
the night, so your sleep is affected, your mindset is affected,
your physical health is affected, your appetite is affected. You're
more likely to engage in anti social behaviors, including addictions,
and then there's sort of a feedback loop. You're less
likely to seek out human connection because you don't feel
(24:19):
so good. On the flip side, when we get human
connection right, it helps us heal faster, it helps us
learn faster, and we have fifty percent less risk of
dying early because of strong connections.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Alie, can you just explain a little bit further that
loneliness is actually worse for your mental health and things
like addiction and smoking and drug use.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
What is it actually doing to our body?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
It sends us into decline faster, so it has all
sorts of physical and mental health impacts. Say you're smoking
cigarettes or vaping, and you have strong relationships with friends
and family, the impact of not smoking but being chronically
lonely is worse for that person. If you're someone who
(25:07):
smokes five cigarettes a day, loneliness is the equivalent of
smoking twenty cigarettes a day. So that's what I mean.
It's not that smoking is fine for you if you
have strong relationships, or that having an addiction or having
a substance abuse problem is fine as long as you're
not lonely. That's not what I mean at all. It's
almost like it's the equivalent of having one of those
(25:29):
addictions or being obese.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And I guess also the reality is is that for
people who are lonely and you touched on it, that
you then seek out those behaviors anyway. I mean, there's
ways in which you can find connection, which is healthy
ways in terms of like family, friends, building that network
around you, or people who are feeling very lonely who
haven't been able to seek out those connections can seek
them out in unhealthy ways as well. I guess if
(25:52):
somebody is in that feeling, it must be so hard
to even know where to start, because I mean, one
of the biggest questions we get, which comes in and
ask cuts every week, is like, how do I make
friends as an adult because there's so many people. I
think as when you're young, making friends, expanding those connections,
it's an easier process. And as we get older, people's
friendship circles get tighter, making new friends building those connections
(26:14):
get harder. And so if someone is experiencing that, how
do they then break into it and how do they
then start to fix the problem.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
The antidote to loneliness is belonging and connection. Everyone gets
on board with that. Great, I'd love to belong That
sounds wonderful, but no one talks about how to do it.
So the four step process is actually to start with yourself.
Natural belonging or time with self is the key to
actually having strong relationships. However, if you're someone who is
(26:47):
in that state where you're feeling profoundly lonely, then more
time to yourself is probably not the answer. So what
I would suggest to people is, rather than going out
with the purpose of making friends, I would suggest to people.
And I remember talking to a lady from the country
who was really positive and really happy but moved to
(27:07):
the city. And she said, I came from this small
town where I knew everyone and felt really strong in
my connections to living in the city, and she said,
I was so lonely. And then I just thought, you
know what, I'm going to do the same thing every day.
I'm going to go to the same person in the
same checkout counter at the local grocery shop. I'm going
to go to the same cafe every day around the
(27:28):
same time. I'm going to go to the same class
at the gym. I'm going to go and as you
can imagine, over time, she started just developing those incidental connections,
and so I would call that collective belonging. So it's
just connections out in the world that make you feel
recognized and seen. So I would say to someone, if
you're feeling lonely, start by doing the same things every day.
(27:50):
Start with a routine. And initially that routine may not
feel like it's getting you anywhere. You might go three
times in a row to the same class, the same
yoga class, or the same gym class. So what, but
maybe on the fourth time you have a little chat
with someone who also, oh, I've seen you here a
couple of times, oh are you? Are you from around here?
And then maybe the next week do you want to
(28:11):
go and get a coffee or do you do any
other classes here? Now, the routine is something that builds
up relationships. Now, think of a time when it was
really easy to make friends. You were in preschool and school. Now,
why was it so easy to make friends because you
had the same routine. You did the same thing every day,
so you knew that you could invest in the people
around you because you knew they'd be there tomorrow. And
(28:34):
that's in your mind, what made it worth making that connection.
The problem now is that everyone is on so many
different timelines and routines that it's very difficult to think, well,
who am I going to invest in because I don't
know if you're going to be here tomorrow. I don't
know if I can rely on you for me to
invest in this connection. So what I would say to
(28:55):
people is start by working out what are the things
that you joy, and then go and seek them out.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
In the world.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
So if you love doing yoga, go and find a
great yoga studio that brings you joy to be there.
If you love swimming, go and find an ocean swimming
club that you can join. If you love art, go
and find an art class that you can join. Like,
all of these things seem like they are massive leaps,
but I know people who are single and who have
(29:25):
really thriving social lives because they are based on this routine,
day to day things that you like to do. So
if you were giving advice to a child about how
to make friends at school, you'd probably say something along
the lines of you just do the things that you
like to do and then you'll find other people who
you share that in common. Now that is still the
case even for adults. What I would also say is
(29:48):
we absolutely care about being vulnerable, so it shifts, you know,
when we're younger, I think we get more embarrassed because
we put ourselves out there more. We're less worried about
taking those emotional risks. Get you get a bit safer,
and it's that whole once bit and twice shy, and
we'd just start going, oh, actually, easier not to send
that text, easier not to ask that person if they
(30:09):
want to have coffee, And absolutely I would say, you
really need to still keep trying and still realize that
these things take effort and they take work. I made
a really, really good friend last year as an adult,
and it was delightful. And she is someone who would say, Hey,
I'm going to spin class day, do you want to come? Hey,
(30:30):
I'm doing this, and she would just ask me to.
Thinks it was as basic as that. And even if
I couldn't make it, I would then come back and say,
can't do this morning, but hey, would you like to
do this together? Yeah? I think it's just about remembering
that we've got to still make an effort, like as
though you're dating, have this dating mindset, except for friends.
(30:50):
Having friends is so important and especially there's been studies
on the importance of friendship in terms of being able
to weather the transitions of life, particularly for women. It
was the Harvard Nurses study that was done and they
found that women with a strong group of friends, or
women with friends they could count on throughout life, they
were healthier, they were happier, they were much able to
(31:12):
withstand transitions. So I just want to say to me,
we've got to go after these things with as much
vigor as we go after, say making money, because it's
so important.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
And I think that that is such unique advice because
we have spoken so much around like, well, if you
want to make friends, like go put yourself out there,
go do your hobbies, go do this, blah blah blah.
And I think that that is quite obvious. You know,
you can make friends by doing things that you like
and go do team sports and all that sort of stuff.
But I don't think we'd ever really considered this idea
of repetition. And I think that that's potentially where friendships
(31:44):
have let us down in that you know, you might
be putting yourself out there and doing all the same things,
but if you don't have the security and knowing that
that person's going to be there, tomorrow, then what is
the incentive to invest in that person. I do think
the other part of this is as we get older
our friendship groups, the time that we have to invest
in our friends is smaller, so often we start to
(32:05):
close those circles off a little bit because we pick
and choose who we want to give our time to.
And that happens as we age as well.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
Totally, And I think it's all about the energy drains
or the energy gains. So I think they're the decisions
that we're making. Who are the people around me that
give me energy that make me feel uplifted versus who
are the people that drain my energy? And over time
we definitely do start to make those choices. But absolutely,
(32:34):
if you consider a romantic relationship, we all have this
internalized view of that conveyor belt for better or for worse,
so to speak. But you understand that a relationship that's
romantic should sort of follow a general pattern. You know,
you might start off and it's initially you might have
dinners or catch up, and then eventually you go on
(32:57):
and it just grows to something more or more. You
might move, you might do this, you might do that.
You might have children, and so we understand that conveyor belt,
but I think the friendship convey a belt is a
little less clear. But what people need to realize is
that absolutely the routine and the predictability and the commitment,
and it has to come from both sides. You both
have to commit to wanting to invest in that friendship.
(33:21):
And I don't think enough people because it's easy to
let friendships go. It's just easier if you think about
if you have children, you have a job, and you
have a partner. It's not that you would necessarily say, yeah,
I don't my friendships. In fact, they're probably the most
rewarding parts, but they're not as immediate in terms of
their demands, so I think they are things that often
(33:42):
fall by the wayside. So people really need to remember
that it's just like investing in your physical health.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Do you think as well we over prioritize the importance
of romantic relationships and deprioritize how fundamental friendship is in
terms of our long term happiness and our long terms
of not being lonely.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Absolutely, And in my book I talk about the eight
different sources of connection, so I call it the connection wheel,
and your romantic partner is one of those. So if
you think about the eight sources of connections as like
a pizza, and so it's your connection pizza with eight slices.
Your romantic relationship is one slice of that pizza. But
(34:23):
we've been told that it's the whole pizza or seven slices.
We've been told it's the reverse. And so we invest
so much in that romantic relationship, and we have the
rituals with that person, and we want them to know
that we're committed, But in fact, a healthy life is
much more diversified. Absolutely, you're going to have to prioritize
(34:44):
a romantic partner in certain ways that you may not
prioritize anyone else. But it doesn't mean that you don't
have sources. So, now knowing this stuff, I never I
didn't research this stuff until a few years ago. Now
that I know it, I will look at my calendar
and I will think of the different sources of connection.
So we're talking about friendships here, but I think the
(35:07):
greatest source of loneliness is the relationship that we all
have with ourselves. So I think it's that most people
are on their own and feel a profound sense of
I don't want to label it because for everyone it's different.
But different people will say to me that on their own,
they feel anxious on their own, they feel depressed on
their own, they feel sad, despair, a lack of hope.
(35:27):
Are just confusion. I don't know what to do. I
think my main message would be if you can figure
out a way to feel happy on your own, that's
the first step that you have nailed. And this is
something that I've really struggled with. I'm one of five children,
so I was never on my own growing up. It
was just it was not something that so I've had
(35:47):
to work on that and that is still something that
I have to consciously say to myself, Okay, by the
end of today, how do I want to feel? What
are the things that I would love to have done
on a Sunday or on a Monday, even do that
at work? How would I love to feel going off
to sleep tonight? And what would I love to have accomplished?
And I think if we start asking those questions, the
(36:10):
way we spend our time alone or with others is
very different, because what we tend to do is we
think we're on our own. We're not intentional about it.
We're not conscious about it. And then we might go
on social media and we might say, oh, that person
just went paddle warning at the beach. I'm a loser.
Why don't I do things like that? Oh they've gone
for an ocean, so we oh they're out at brunch.
Oh my gosh. And then we just go into this
(36:31):
spiral which then piles on and makes the time alone
even worse or even harder. So what I'd love for
people to do, it's not just about like find hobbies.
Whenever anyone says that to I don't think I have
any hobbies. But then someone if someone was to say,
but what do you like to do? I'd go, oh, well,
that and that and that and but I would never
think of them as a list of hobbies. But if
you can stop that spiral of comparison of how you
(36:55):
think your life or your day or your weekend should
look and start to actually sit down, get pen and paper,
go old school. What are the things I love to do?
And I actually went through this whole process a few
years ago, and I made a list. I've a list
on my phone of things that I love to do.
So whenever I start to go in a spiral. If
I am on my own, I'll consult the list and
(37:17):
actually go oh oh yeah, actually I do there are
things that I really do love to do. And once
you get okay with that time on your own, people
pick up on that. People pick up that you're bouncing
on this vibe where you're okay on your own, you're
okay in a group, and you're okay one on one.
And what's really interesting as well is in my research
five thousand people of research, sixty percent of people say
(37:39):
that their preferred mode of connection is in a group
of three to five is golden number. So again, if
that's where psychological safety is, maybe think about that, Maybe
think about organizing some things with three to five people,
because a lot of people find time alone very confronting,
a lot of people find one on one very confronting.
(38:00):
But in a small group that seems to be the
golden number for psychological safety.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Alie, can you tell us as well? You mentioned that
there's eight pieces of the pie. What are the full
eight pieces?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So we've got self time with self time in nature,
so connection to land, This is something that I think
all of us need to think more about. So sense
of place, so that's the second one. And then we
have family of origin. So if you have people who
were parents, you brothers and sisters, that kind of thing.
Your current family, so that could be your partner, your children,
(38:35):
whatever family you have. Now friends, community, and then your
so this is your community as in I go to
my son's rugby and see the people on the sidelines,
or I'm at the school and I'm involved in the
school in that way. And then what I call collective
belonging or out in the world. So people I might
see at the dog park, I don't know their name,
but we see each other every morning. Hi, Hey, you going,
(38:57):
and just it's that kind of local identity, national identity.
Collective belonging is really potent when we go overseas and
you might see another Australian or you might see another
person from your country and you just have this moment
of oh, you feel connected to that person. That's collective belonging.
It's we are connected because of our shared circumstance. So
they're the eight sources and each of them are equally important.
(39:21):
And so what COVID did is it actually removed the
social group and the community and the collective belonging. So
we lost that top layer of connections, and I think
that's why so many people couldn't really name what was wrong,
because they might have been like, well, what you know,
I can go for a walk, I'm here, I can
see people in my loco, in my street, or in
(39:42):
my house.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I'm still zooming people every day. I'm on FaceTime, I'm
on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, why is it weird that I can't just sit
in a cafe and sort of see the people that
I would normally see in my day to day. So
I think that's a shock to people that all eight
of those connection sources are equally important. So yesterday, as
an example, I took myself for a walk up to
the local shopping center and I just wanted to get
my toenails done. Too much detail, sorry, but I just
(40:10):
thought I'll walk there.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
That would be too much detail. Put them on the screen.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Nothing out of the ordinary, just your standard pedicure anyway.
But there were people that I saw the way on
that walk. There was this lovely older lady and she
she sort of stopped at the top of these edges,
just catching my breath, and I just stopped and had
a chat with her. That is collective belonging, and people
don't realize that those sorts of incidental connections are so
key to our health and well being. And I think
what happens is a lot of people. Let's do a
(40:37):
typical day in the life for someone, and this is
what people don't realize is a lot of younger people
suffer from loneliness more so than any other demographic. So
eighteen to thirty is the highest experience of loneliness. So
if you I mentioned a day in the life of someone,
so they don't know anything about loneliness, they don't even
know how to identify it in themselves. They might wake up,
they might have been out the night before not feeling great.
(40:58):
The we so they wake up, that's help their phone,
that's their first source of connection, and they start saying,
you know, they fall into that comparison spiral on social media, Oh,
this person's doing this, this person's doing this, and then
they just feel a bit like they're in despair. I
want to say to that person, if you go through
your I whittle it down to four stages of belonging.
(41:21):
So we start off with natural belonging. Okay, so I've
got to work on my intention for today how do
I want to feel the end of today? Oh, well,
I want to feel even if it feels unreal or unrealistic.
I would love to feel happy, and I'd love to
feel like I've exercised, and I'd love to feel like
I've eaten well, and I'd love to anyway, So set
an intention. Then the second one is belonging with one
(41:43):
other person. So belonging in a meaningful connection. Who is
a person that you might be able to send a
text to or make a phone call to. Could be
your mom and your dad, your brother's sister, your friend,
anyone that you care about, your auntie, anyone in your circle.
So then you have The next one is connection. The
next one is collective belonging. You might not get through
all four of those in one given day, but all
(42:06):
of those are equally important. So now let's shift back
to this person who's lying down on their phone. Oh
hold on, this isn't making me feel good. I'm actually
feeling lonely, scrolling through social media to put my phone down.
How I want to feel today is I actually want
to feel really vital. Actually I might go and go
for a swim somewhere. Actually I might go and do
a class somewhere. Actually, I might go and get my
(42:27):
nails done. Actually I might go and see if I
can catch up with a friend. I know that they've
just had a baby and they might be feeling lonely.
Do you see how once you shift out of the
comparison spiral into intentionality, you start having thoughts that had
not occurred to you previously. You start having insights, You
start thinking of others. You start realizing, actually, common humanity,
(42:47):
we're all in this together. Everyone struggling, Everyone struggles with
this stuff because we no longer live in a village
of two hundred people where I walk out of my
door and I know everyone's name and that's the extent
of my community.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I also think it's interesting that you say it's for
people eighteen to thirty, and I would say that the twenties,
in terms of when I unpacked my own life, were
the hardest years of knowing who I was, and it
was this still trying to figure out what I wanted
in life, who I wanted to be in life, trying
to find someone to be with. Like, it's a real
(43:18):
period for so many people of longing to fit in
and figuring out who you actually are, which I totally
think contributes to that. So there's no surprise to me
that that is the age of which people feel it
the most overall. But I also would love to know.
Do you think that people are more lonely now or
just that we're talking about it more now, just that
(43:40):
we have words for what people are experiencing.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
No. I think people are more lonely now, and I
think it's because the world has changed so much that
people are really unclear on social roles. So it used
to be that if you were born, let's say one
hundred years ago, your life was pretty much mapped out
from birth, so you could say this is what will happen.
I will be married at some point. All of my
(44:04):
friends will go through the exact same thing. I will
probably have children. I'm talking about the three of us,
by the way, and so it was all mapped out
for us. Now that caused its only loneliness. I'm not
saying that was a perfect condition. I'm not in any
way saying that was an ideal state. But there was
something comforting in that. There was relief in that, even
in our mother's generation or the one above, if they
(44:26):
were at home with children, you could probably bet that
there was someone on that street also at home with children. Now,
if you have a baby, there's no guarantee that there's
anyone on your street who is at home with the baby.
The baby may be with a nanny, the baby may
be in daycare, the baby may be who knows everyone's life.
Similar to what I was saying before about the routine.
So if you think about going from school to going
(44:48):
to add into the world in terms of what happens
to our routines, the exact same thing has now happened
with social roles. So all of the decline of religion,
the move from regional and rural communities to urban communities,
the increase in office work and also working from home,
the nuclear family is no longer all of these, so
(45:09):
that we've changed more in the last fifty years than
sort for hundreds of years before it. So I think
people are a lonely because they're confused, existentially confused. What
on earth am I supposed to be doing with my life?
A woman now is should I have children at all?
Versus someone who might say, well, I know I want
(45:32):
to have children, but how many.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
There's so many options, and the grass is always greener.
So now we can sit at home and be like, well,
maybe I should have been doing that. Maybe I can
still do that. Maybe I don't have to stay at
home with my baby, because no other mother on the
streets staying home with the baby. Everyone else is going
to work and getting a nanny and putting their kids
in school. And there's this constant snowball effect of never
(45:54):
being comfortable in what you have and never been content
in what you have, and always wanting more. And I
think that indirectly circles to that feeling of loneliness.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I totally agree. It's almost like loneliness is the inevitable
conclusion of a world where we are conditioned to never
be content with the moment that we're in. And I
think this is everybody's struggle. And if we all can
acknowledge that we're all going through that struggle, that am
I on the right track? Am I doing what I
(46:23):
should be doing? Is there a better option? All they
seem to be doing something great? Should I be doing
that as well? I think we need to get rid
of that existential angst about what we're supposed to be
doing and get back to our values. So I would
just love I mean, if I could jump into the
home or the sound, that's going to sound a bit creepy,
but every single person listening, I would love to be
(46:45):
able to sit with them and say, Okay, let's figure
out your values. What matters to you most deeply? When
you pull away all of the dressing on top, you know,
all of the noise, take away all the noise, what
do you deeply care about? Let's get to the end
end of your life and look back. What is going
to make you most proud, what is going to make
you most gratified, and what's going to be most meaningful
(47:07):
for you. That's a good place to start to figure
out what loneliness is going to be for that person,
because it's different for everyone. And so I think these
are the conversations that we need to start having rather
than what are they doing? That's what we're asking, what's
this other person doing because maybe that's what I should
be doing. No, you need to start by saying what
(47:30):
do I deeply value and what is going to make
me most proud? Because your answer is going to be
different to somebody else's answer. And the most powerful people
on the planet are the people who know what they
want and have the courage to go after it.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Ali, thank you so much for sharing. And also we
enjoyed the conversation we had around connections so much earlier
this year, and I know we touched on it then
around loneliness and how this is such a part of
the topic that's expanded from what you have spoken about
in Click and Clash, and we so appreciate you sharing
your wisdom, your pizza, your pizza with us and not
(48:09):
giving us a slice and making us feel like we belong.
And also, you know, at the end of the day,
I think one of the big driving forces around us
creating Life Uncut was the incredible community that we have
been able to build off the back of it. And
like I said earlier, one of the big questions that
we get week in week out is around friendship and
how can we make more friends and how can we
feel like we have a community. And so I think
(48:30):
it's these kinds of conversations that really help to drive
people in the right direction and give them the tools
to do that.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, and to anyone that's listening now to this episode
on loneliness, maybe you've come here and you're not a
listener of Life Uncut, maybe WHI are a listener of
Life Uncut, but I cannot stress enough join our Life
Uncut discussion group because the feedback that we get from
that is a sense of belonging, is the community. It
circles back to what you spoke about before, Ali, where
we want to feel like we're a part of something.
(48:58):
And the number of people that have come in to
Life on Cut and that discussion group alone and left
with so many friends and so many connections is the
best part of the job. So if this is you
and you have been brought to this episode for whatever
reason and you're not a part of that Life Discussion
group community, please like that is like the number one
step I feel like to go and make friends as
(49:19):
an adult and to feel that connection and that sense
of community and belonging.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
Yeah, you've genuinely created collective belongso for people.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Thank you so much, Ali, Thank you
Life on Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose
lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their
elders past and present.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
recorded on Drug Wallamuta Land Hut Eyes and welcome back
to another episode of Life on Cut. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany,
and we have such a special interview and conversation for
(00:30):
you guys today heading into the Christmas period. This is
something that I mean, we've touched on it quite a
few years now, but it's something that always comes up
this time of year, a time of you when you're
supposed to feel the most connected, a time of you
when you're supposed to prioritize your friendships, prioritize your relationships,
prioritize all of the things in life that have and
give you meaning. But it's also a time for so
(00:52):
many people when you are lacking in those areas of
your life where you can feel incredibly lowly. It's almost
like it puts a spotlight on your feelings where when
the world is telling you that Christmas is such a
happy time, and then if you're dealing with these feelings
of loneliness or loss or anxiety, that it can really
highlight the space between where you are at and how
(01:12):
you're supposed to be feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, and who The World Health Organization has literally just
declared that loneliness is a global health priority. Like this
is a pretty big thing, and this is a pretty
serious issue. We also have some stats from the National
Youth Mental Health Foundation. Nearly two thirds of young people
say they feel lonely and left out, like two thirds.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That is a huge amount, which is insane when you
think that we live in a world which is so
incredibly connected. Like we look at social media, we look
at the ease of which community and I say community
with like you know, Bunny is quote unquote but like
that it should be access whereas during this time, it's
actually something that even though we have accessibility to it,
people still feel so incredibly lonely at the same time.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
You know, something I found really interesting though, is when
you think of loneliness. If I asked you, Laura, like loneliness,
age demographic do you think would experience the most loneliness?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I mean originally, I mean before I read the stats,
because I know the answers to this, but I would
have attributed it to the elderly. I would have attributed
loneliness to sitting alone in a nursing home and your
family not coming and visiting you anymore, and that feeling
of looking into the future of your life and seeing
that there's not that much left of it. And I've
thought that that would have been the most lonely time
(02:23):
of life.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, because I feel like as you age, it's highly
likely you've lost more people in your life. And that's
just a general blanket statement. But this year it has
been found that young Australians age between fifteen and twenty
four experience loneliness more than older Australians fifty five plus,
which really really surprised me.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think that this conversation could
have come at a better time, to be honest. And
we're talking to doctor Ali Walker, who we've spoken to
on the podcast before. We spoke to Ali around connection
and that has such an obvious link to loneliness. So
the connections that we have in our relationships and to
people can either make us feel fulfilled and like we
have community around us, or can add to this feeling loneliness.
(03:01):
The other thing as well, is, and I think we
never really speak about loneliness in this way, but it's
this idea that it's not just a feeling. It can
have physiological effects on our body. And the research that
was done has shown that for people who feel chronic loneliness,
it can increase things like an early death, the likelihood
of stroke, and it can also increase the risk of
dementia by up to fifty percent, which is just so
(03:23):
incredibly alarming. So if you have ever or do at
times feel incredibly lonely, even though you may be surrounded
by people, just know that you are not alone in
those feelings. And I hope that this conversation brings you
a little bit of solace and it also gives you
some tools as to how to manage those feelings.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, we cover a bunch of topics with Ali. We're
going to get into solitude versus loneliness, how introverts and
extroverts experienced loneliness differently, because that's really really interesting, the
long term effects of loneliness and how you can fix
your loneliness. So it's a really important episode for us,
and we hope you get something out of it too.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We had doctor Ali Walker on the podcast back in
I think it was January. She is a human connection
specialist and a mediator with a PhD in group dynamics.
She's also the author of Click and Clash, which is
what we were speaking about on that episode, all around
talking about connections and compatibilities. That episode was is your
name wi Fi? Because I'm feeling a connection? You can
(04:19):
go about better names, wasn't it. You can go back
and have a listen to it. We'll put all the
details in the show notes if you want to go
back and have a listen to that app. But we
spoke about something on that episode and we touched on
it very very briefly, and that was loneliness. This epidemic
of loneliness. We've seen it spoken about so much across
social media, and in a world where we are supposed
to be so connected, how is it that we can
(04:41):
be and feel so lonely. Now we've been speaking about
doing this episode for so long, and I think we
are all very excited that finally it is happening. Ali,
welcome back to Life on card.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I think this is going to be a conversation that
for so many people, we're going to be able to
relate to it, because loneliness is something that we are
all going to feel at different points in time in
our lives. But I do think it's so interesting, And
like I said earlier, we live in this time where
we are so hyper connected. We have so many networks
across social media. There are so many activities that we
can do, like, we couldn't be more connected, but the
(05:17):
disconnect also couldn't be further from the truth. For a
lot of people. What is it? And I guess the
difference between being alone in life and having solitude versus
feeling lonely.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I can't
think of a more important one, and in this time,
because so many people that I speak to are suffering,
and they're suffering in a way that I don't even
think they can identify what's going on. And so it's
really important to be clear about what we're talking about
when we refer to loneliness. So loneliness is simply the
(05:50):
negative feelings that arise when there is a gap between
what we want to be experiencing and what we are experiencing.
That's it. That's why it is so general and so
all encompassing. So if you are on your own, and
often when I'm giving workshops or talks on this, and
I'll say to people, put your hand up if you
enjoy being on your own, and the majority of people
(06:12):
in the audience will put their hands up and they're
sort of laughing about it, like I love being on
my own. Now, that is not loneliness. That is solitude. Now.
Solitude is when there is a positive feeling because there
is no gap between what you want to be experiencing
and what you are experiencing. So I think everyone can relate.
If you've had a massive day, come home and whatever
(06:33):
it is that you do to unwind. You might be
going for a run, you might hop in the bath,
you might go and have a sauna, whatever it is.
That's not loneliness because that's exactly what you want to
be feeling at that time. Loneliness happens when you have
an idea of what you would like to be experiencing,
but there is a big gap between that and what
you actually are experiencing in your reality. So I speak
(06:56):
to people who feel lonely at work because they might
be in troverted, and they're surrounded by people and they're
in constant meetings and they just feel like they cannot
have a moment to themselves. They are lonely, but they
don't necessarily experience it as loneliness. They might feel overwhelmed
or anxious, but actually the feeling is loneliness. So just
(07:16):
remember it's the negative feeling that arises from the gap
between what you want and what you're getting.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I think it's interesting when you say this idea of solitude,
and it's like that we can all enjoy solitude, but
does there come a point where too much solitude can
then be a negative impact, like it can then lead
to feeling lonely?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Anyway I can answer this, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Sometimes we can cut ourselves off a bit and be like,
you know, I'm happy being on my own. I'm happy
being on my own. But if you're not nurturing those connections,
then when you are lonely, all of a sudden, you're like,
I'm on my own.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Absolutely, there's a point where think of it like your
appetite just for eating, so you might feel full and
then feel like, Okay, I really don't need to eat
for several hours or a few hours however long it is.
But then you get to a point where, Okay, I'm
hungry again. It's exactly the same with human connection. Human
connection is our greatest psychological need. So when we say
(08:11):
that it's a need, it's something that we have to
fulfill or else we die or else we stop thriving.
So psychologically, it's not something that we can opt out of.
And this is what I'm so passionate about talking to
people about because we need to understand that this is
it's something that we have to work on. So I
(08:32):
don't know about you, but I get to the point
where if I haven't been working on my physical health,
if I haven't exercised in a couple of days, if
I've been eating crap, I will get to a point
where I go, Okay, enough, I've got to start being
serious about this. I've got to invest in this. I've
got to eat some good meals. I've got to get
out and exercise. I feel that something kicks in in
my body because it doesn't feel right. I want people
(08:53):
to be in the same way, aware of their human
connection instinct. So, Okay, I've had some time on my own,
I'm starting to feel a bit restless, and for everyone
it might be different. Some people, it might you might
feel a little bit sad, you might feel a little
bit anxious, you might feel a little bit depressed. Loneliness
will show up for people in different ways, so at
some point there will be a feeling that will kick
(09:16):
in that is your signal to go and connect with
other people.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Do you think that they can live alongside each other
simultaneously and in some form of harmony. And I say
that because I have lived alone for many many years.
I've been on my own for many many years, and
I love it. I don't feel lonely. But I was
just trying to understand and put myself into your statement
at the start that it's the difference between what you
(09:41):
want and what you don't have. So I really want
to live with my partner, but I'm so happy on
my own at the same time, so I actually don't
know if I'm lonely.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So I would just say that the gap for you
is not that wide because both realities would be great.
So you're happy with your current reality, and also you'd
be happy living with your partner if you were there
feeling profoundly lonely living on your own and you really
wanted to live with your partner, then your loneliness would
be greater. It sounds for you like you have a
(10:16):
both and rather than an either or, so the gap
is just not as wide. And it also seems like
from I mean, we don't know each other that well,
but it seems like you get a lot of your
connection needs met from other sources. From my dog, Well,
you've got each other, and you've got your huge community
that you connect with. You've got so many other sources
(10:37):
of connection, so you're not just there. And this is
then leads to the next one, which I talk about
diversifying our connections.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, I just wanted to make the point for anyone
else that was sitting at home thinking, oh, if they're
not in a relationship or they live on their own, like,
that doesn't necessarily because you want something, you want that relationship,
that doesn't necessarily mean you're lonely, because I think there
are a lot of people that battle with that idea
of I must be lonely because I'm alone. But it
doesn't They can live in harmony. And I think that's
(11:04):
really important for people to understand because it is a
really hard concept to understand that how can you not
be lonely if you live on your own all the time.
How can you not be lonely if you don't have
that many friends. But I think it's really important for
people to think, Okay, just because I am on my
own doesn't necessarily mean I'm at the depths of my despair.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
No, of course not. And in fact, I've met some
people who want to live on their own. That is
their preferred state. And this is where my book came from.
And I know we've spoken about this in the past,
but that's why it's so important to be talking about
loneliness through the lens of these two concepts of your
frequency and your intensity. Because all of us have different
(11:42):
connection profiles. So if you have someone who is introverted
and quite reserved and really prefers to be in their
own world, living alone would actually be their preferred state.
So when we're saying to people what loneliness is, that's
why I keep it very general and say it's the
gap between what you want and what you have. For
(12:04):
some people, what they want is to live alone. So
I've met people who and I say, oh, because they
come up on my profile as being low frequency, low intensity,
and I say, do you live alone? Someone's once said
to me no, And I'm annoyed about it because I've
got someone staying with me at the moment. Or someone
might say yes, and my nearest neighbor is sixty k's away,
and that's how I like it. So I don't think
we can put a label on a physical state or
(12:27):
a physical reality and say that will make you lonely.
What we need to do is say what kind of
connector are you and what are your connection needs? Rather
than putting labels and saying people must be in a relationship,
people must live with others, people must go out to
work in an office. Absolutely not. Everybody's different in the
(12:47):
same way that we all eat differently, we all have
different dietary requirements. I don't think you can put rules
on connection.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Do you think in today's society we're prioritizing the wrong
types of connections that we're not necess necessarily leaning into
communities or people whose relationships have a deep and meaningful
impact on us. But because of like the social media
side of things, because of this instant gratification, because of
having like big but loosely connected networks, we kind of
(13:14):
feel like we've got people around us, but can't quite
pinpoint why it is that we're not feeling that connection.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I think that social media and connecting via digital means
is a little bit like sugar is to food. So
you can go through your entire day eating food that's
not great for you, but feel like you're eating So yes,
I've eaten, Yes I've eaten, but is it nourishing food?
And in the same way, I think of social media
(13:42):
like that, I think of connecting over digital means like that.
So absolutely it has a function, but it should be
a way to enhance existing fundamental connections with deep roots,
deep sources. It shouldn't be in place of that. So
I was doing a radio segment last night on love bombing.
(14:02):
So I was talking about how it's actually really common
now for younger people to be love bombed, not only
in romantic relationships but in friendships. And so love bombing
is just when someone is overwhelming you initially with that
connection and then goes to a period of devaluing and
discarding or ghosting you after that, leaving the person feeling
(14:23):
what happened. It's like a whirlwind. And I think that
the reason we have the ingredients for love bombing is
because you can actually fake connection online, so you can
send someone ten WhatsApp messages in a row or a
photo of here I am now, and it's almost like
fake intimacy because it hasn't built up over time and
it's not based on genuine connection. So I think a
(14:46):
lot of people are thinking, yeah, I've got these friends,
I've got these people who really care about me, and
we share the daily details of our lives, but it's
not actually built on time and an authentic convers station
and connection and experience together, real experience. So you can
absolutely have constant WhatsApps with someone if it is also
(15:09):
balanced with that authentic time together and genuine conversation, because
research has shown there's just no replacement for in person
and even this, we're able to see each other's facial expressions,
we're able to connect with each other face to face.
Even this is more meaningful than texting or sending snapchats
or WhatsApp messages. So I think it's just about remembering
(15:31):
that it can't be a replacement for genuine connection. I
think we get into trouble when we look at our
friendships that are based primarily on those means of connection
and think that they are deep and strong and enduring.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
What do you think about I think it's a really
common concept for people to say that they feel lonely
in a relationship. They might have been in a relationship
for a long time. It might be a marriage, it
might be a couple of years, might be a couple
of months, but they're like, I have this person that
I love, they love me, but I feel really alone
and lonely in that relationship. What are some of the
reasons people experience that When you're.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
In a marriage, when you're in a relationship with someone,
you are constantly with each other on the basis of
frequency and intensity. Frequency is just how much time together,
how many conversations. Intensity is what type of connection. Are
we playing cards together? Are we sitting watching a show
or a sports game or watching TV? Low intensity? Or
are we talking and making eye contact and having an
(16:29):
intense emotional connection high intensity. So when people feel lonely
in a relationship, it's because there's a gap. It's because
you might have a partner who is a low frequency connector,
which means you're there going do you do you want
to go for a weekend away? Do you want to
go out for dinner? Do you want to go for breakfast?
Do you want to go for a walk? And they're no,
I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. But I love you,
(16:49):
but I don't want to do those things. So you
have a frequency mismatch that can be the first reason
you might feel lonely. So someone's there thinking, hold on,
we're meant to love each other, and you don't even
want to go for breakfast with me. You don't even
want to go out for dinner with me on a
Saturday night, And so you've just got different preferences when
it comes to how much connection together. My boyfriend in
first year UNI classic frequency mismatch. So he was low frequency.
(17:13):
I'm high frequency, and he would kind of get in
touch with me every couple of days every and when
you're at UNI nothing else to do. I look now
and think what did I do with my time? I
was working and I was studying, But in terms of
free time, I wanted to see him and talk to
him every day. I didn't necessarily have to see him
every day, but most of my friends had boyfriends that
(17:35):
they saw a lot, and he was low frequency, and
I would sort of say to him, it's okay, we
don't have to be together, and I give him an out,
like you don't if you're not into me, and he
would genuinely say, no, I really want to be with you.
I really But then how do you ask that next question?
But why don't you ring me every day? You don't?
And that's just a frequency of incompatibility and frequency. Now,
(17:57):
that's the first reason you can feel lonely. I felt
really lonely that relationship. Second reason you can feel lonely
is an intensity mismatch or gap. So you have someone
who is a low intent. Now, typically my research shows
men tend to be low intensity, women tend to be
high intensity. No rocket science there, but I do actually
have the data to show that that is the case.
Doesn't mean that men can't be high intensity women can't
(18:19):
be low intensity, Obviously we have exceptions. So if you
have two people in a relationship and one is low intensity,
they will want to connect using ways of being together
that don't necessarily involve talking. So imagine you've been waiting
all week to see this person and you're a high
intensity connector, and all you want to do is talk
(18:40):
to them and understand them and feel like you've had
a really deep and meaningful connection through conversation. And this
person says, do you want to go to a movie?
Or do you want to go and see a concert?
Or do you want to go to the gym. Now,
if you're a high intensity connector, you might then feel
lonely and think, well, I've been waiting to to see you.
(19:00):
All I want to do is talk to you. And
you want to go to the gym or you want
to go to see an NRL game? What are you
talking about? Do you even want to spend time with me?
And that is simply an intensity gap, because the high
intensity person is saying, I want to connect with you
through talking. I want to go out for dinner, I
want to go out for drinks. I want to have
(19:22):
a high intensity emotional experience with you where I can
let my guard down, share my feelings, go into full disclosure.
Because that's what love looks like for that person, whereas
love for the other person it's slower, it's more about
actions than words. And so this is where when people
say to me that they feel lonely in a relationship,
typically then the next line will be he doesn't talk
(19:44):
to me, or she makes me feel like I'm not
good enough for her or nothing I do is good enough.
And then also that can be reversed absolutely depending on
the personality of the partners. And so then it's all
about getting the other person to understand this is not
personal to you. It's not as though this person. So
let's go back to my boyfriend in UNI. It's not
(20:07):
as though if he was with another girl he'd be
calling her every day. That's his preference for Oh, actually
I hope not. We'll never know. But knowing him now,
reflecting on that, as I can now from my perspective,
that's him. That's just his frequency preference, and that's just
how he has friendships and relationships. So the hardest part
(20:30):
is not taking it personally. And I remember, I think
I may have mentioned this in the last interview we
talked about my husband and I used to go out
for dinner and it would almost feel awkward, and then
we actually I had to go. But we're great. We are,
you know, nine out of ten compatible, eight out of
ten compatible. Why is it so weird to sit at
a table and look at each other when we work
(20:52):
so well in so many other ways? And so then
we started going on those day dates, and we started
going for walks, and we started doing other things. We
started going for an ocean walk and swim and then
we go and have a quick dinner afterwards. But the
focus wasn't on that intense eye contact, deep talking connection
because that for him is not his preferred mode. So, yeah,
(21:13):
if you're lonely in a relationship, it doesn't mean you
shouldn't be together. It's the one thing I want to say.
And it's just about finding out your preferences for connection
and then just experimenting with what works for both of you.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Do you think that there's times in life, like whether
it's milestones or situations that happen to people that obviously
impact your happiness. You know, we say that in relationships
it could be this mismatch in the frequency of which
you're showing up or how you like to have connection.
But can it not also be circumstantial, like the things
that happen to you in your life obviously make you
(21:46):
feel more lonely of course.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And in fact, my research has shown that when people
have experienced some kind of shock or tragedy or some
kind of grief in their life, it absolutely affects the
way that connect. So I interviewed a woman who was
going through breast cancer treatment, and she reported that her
frequency stayed the same, but her intensity went down, so
(22:11):
she still wanted to be around people as much, she
didn't want to talk because she had enough going on
in her head. So other people who I've worked with,
I've worked with injured workers who might have had a
psychological injury at work or a physical injury, so they've
lost their social identity, they've lost their ability to work,
they've totally changed their way that they live their life.
(22:32):
And absolutely generally what will happen is people's frequency, so
how much connection they want will go down.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
What type of effect does loneliness in general have on us? Like,
I mean, we all know it emotionally affects us and
makes us feel sad, But what are the long term
impacts and why is it something that we need to address.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
It's hard to keep this answer upbeat because of the
impact that it does have on us, So I'll start
with some basic Okay, so the mental health impact, So
it's more likely if you're profoundly lonely, I'm talking about
chronic loneliness, because sometimes people come up for you and
say so should I get out more? How often should
I be going out? And they've started to panic. This
is people who are chronically lonely, who feel like they
(23:16):
have no power to do anything about it. What it
can do is it can make us more susceptible to depression, anxiety,
mental health repercussions. Older people are more likely to age faster,
so they're more likely to develop dementia, Alzheimer's, or just
go into decline in physical and mental ways. It has
(23:36):
mental health impacts, but it also is worse for us
than smoking, obesity, and substance abuse. We need to sort
of remember I go back to it being our greatest
psychological need. It's a need meaning that if it is
not met, all sorts of things will start to happen
in terms of decline. So our physical health time spent
asleep when you go to bed, you're not asleep in
(23:58):
your bed as long, more likely to be up through
the night, so your sleep is affected, your mindset is affected,
your physical health is affected, your appetite is affected. You're
more likely to engage in anti social behaviors, including addictions,
and then there's sort of a feedback loop. You're less
likely to seek out human connection because you don't feel
(24:19):
so good. On the flip side, when we get human
connection right, it helps us heal faster, it helps us
learn faster, and we have fifty percent less risk of
dying early because of strong connections.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Alie, can you just explain a little bit further that
loneliness is actually worse for your mental health and things
like addiction and smoking and drug use.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
What is it actually doing to our body?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
It sends us into decline faster, so it has all
sorts of physical and mental health impacts. Say you're smoking
cigarettes or vaping, and you have strong relationships with friends
and family, the impact of not smoking but being chronically
lonely is worse for that person. If you're someone who
(25:07):
smokes five cigarettes a day, loneliness is the equivalent of
smoking twenty cigarettes a day. So that's what I mean.
It's not that smoking is fine for you if you
have strong relationships, or that having an addiction or having
a substance abuse problem is fine as long as you're
not lonely. That's not what I mean at all. It's
almost like it's the equivalent of having one of those
(25:29):
addictions or being obese.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And I guess also the reality is is that for
people who are lonely and you touched on it, that
you then seek out those behaviors anyway. I mean, there's
ways in which you can find connection, which is healthy
ways in terms of like family, friends, building that network
around you, or people who are feeling very lonely who
haven't been able to seek out those connections can seek
them out in unhealthy ways as well. I guess if
(25:52):
somebody is in that feeling, it must be so hard
to even know where to start, because I mean, one
of the biggest questions we get, which comes in and
ask cuts every week, is like, how do I make
friends as an adult because there's so many people. I
think as when you're young, making friends, expanding those connections,
it's an easier process. And as we get older, people's
friendship circles get tighter, making new friends building those connections
(26:14):
get harder. And so if someone is experiencing that, how
do they then break into it and how do they
then start to fix the problem.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
The antidote to loneliness is belonging and connection. Everyone gets
on board with that. Great, I'd love to belong That
sounds wonderful, but no one talks about how to do it.
So the four step process is actually to start with yourself.
Natural belonging or time with self is the key to
actually having strong relationships. However, if you're someone who is
(26:47):
in that state where you're feeling profoundly lonely, then more
time to yourself is probably not the answer. So what
I would suggest to people is, rather than going out
with the purpose of making friends, I would suggest to people.
And I remember talking to a lady from the country
who was really positive and really happy but moved to
(27:07):
the city. And she said, I came from this small
town where I knew everyone and felt really strong in
my connections to living in the city, and she said,
I was so lonely. And then I just thought, you
know what, I'm going to do the same thing every day.
I'm going to go to the same person in the
same checkout counter at the local grocery shop. I'm going
to go to the same cafe every day around the
(27:28):
same time. I'm going to go to the same class
at the gym. I'm going to go and as you
can imagine, over time, she started just developing those incidental connections,
and so I would call that collective belonging. So it's
just connections out in the world that make you feel
recognized and seen. So I would say to someone, if
you're feeling lonely, start by doing the same things every day.
(27:50):
Start with a routine. And initially that routine may not
feel like it's getting you anywhere. You might go three
times in a row to the same class, the same
yoga class, or the same gym class. So what, but
maybe on the fourth time you have a little chat
with someone who also, oh, I've seen you here a
couple of times, oh are you? Are you from around here?
And then maybe the next week do you want to
(28:11):
go and get a coffee or do you do any
other classes here? Now, the routine is something that builds
up relationships. Now, think of a time when it was
really easy to make friends. You were in preschool and school. Now,
why was it so easy to make friends because you
had the same routine. You did the same thing every day,
so you knew that you could invest in the people
around you because you knew they'd be there tomorrow. And
(28:34):
that's in your mind, what made it worth making that connection.
The problem now is that everyone is on so many
different timelines and routines that it's very difficult to think, well,
who am I going to invest in because I don't
know if you're going to be here tomorrow. I don't
know if I can rely on you for me to
invest in this connection. So what I would say to
(28:55):
people is start by working out what are the things
that you joy, and then go and seek them out.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
In the world.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
So if you love doing yoga, go and find a
great yoga studio that brings you joy to be there.
If you love swimming, go and find an ocean swimming
club that you can join. If you love art, go
and find an art class that you can join. Like,
all of these things seem like they are massive leaps,
but I know people who are single and who have
(29:25):
really thriving social lives because they are based on this routine,
day to day things that you like to do. So
if you were giving advice to a child about how
to make friends at school, you'd probably say something along
the lines of you just do the things that you
like to do and then you'll find other people who
you share that in common. Now that is still the
case even for adults. What I would also say is
(29:48):
we absolutely care about being vulnerable, so it shifts, you know,
when we're younger, I think we get more embarrassed because
we put ourselves out there more. We're less worried about
taking those emotional risks. Get you get a bit safer,
and it's that whole once bit and twice shy, and
we'd just start going, oh, actually, easier not to send
that text, easier not to ask that person if they
(30:09):
want to have coffee, And absolutely I would say, you
really need to still keep trying and still realize that
these things take effort and they take work. I made
a really, really good friend last year as an adult,
and it was delightful. And she is someone who would say, Hey,
I'm going to spin class day, do you want to come? Hey,
(30:30):
I'm doing this, and she would just ask me to.
Thinks it was as basic as that. And even if
I couldn't make it, I would then come back and say,
can't do this morning, but hey, would you like to
do this together? Yeah? I think it's just about remembering
that we've got to still make an effort, like as
though you're dating, have this dating mindset, except for friends.
(30:50):
Having friends is so important and especially there's been studies
on the importance of friendship in terms of being able
to weather the transitions of life, particularly for women. It
was the Harvard Nurses study that was done and they
found that women with a strong group of friends, or
women with friends they could count on throughout life, they
were healthier, they were happier, they were much able to
(31:12):
withstand transitions. So I just want to say to me,
we've got to go after these things with as much
vigor as we go after, say making money, because it's
so important.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
And I think that that is such unique advice because
we have spoken so much around like, well, if you
want to make friends, like go put yourself out there,
go do your hobbies, go do this, blah blah blah.
And I think that that is quite obvious. You know,
you can make friends by doing things that you like
and go do team sports and all that sort of stuff.
But I don't think we'd ever really considered this idea
of repetition. And I think that that's potentially where friendships
(31:44):
have let us down in that you know, you might
be putting yourself out there and doing all the same things,
but if you don't have the security and knowing that
that person's going to be there, tomorrow, then what is
the incentive to invest in that person. I do think
the other part of this is as we get older
our friendship groups, the time that we have to invest
in our friends is smaller, so often we start to
(32:05):
close those circles off a little bit because we pick
and choose who we want to give our time to.
And that happens as we age as well.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
Totally, And I think it's all about the energy drains
or the energy gains. So I think they're the decisions
that we're making. Who are the people around me that
give me energy that make me feel uplifted versus who
are the people that drain my energy? And over time
we definitely do start to make those choices. But absolutely,
(32:34):
if you consider a romantic relationship, we all have this
internalized view of that conveyor belt for better or for worse,
so to speak. But you understand that a relationship that's
romantic should sort of follow a general pattern. You know,
you might start off and it's initially you might have
dinners or catch up, and then eventually you go on
(32:57):
and it just grows to something more or more. You
might move, you might do this, you might do that.
You might have children, and so we understand that conveyor belt,
but I think the friendship convey a belt is a
little less clear. But what people need to realize is
that absolutely the routine and the predictability and the commitment,
and it has to come from both sides. You both
have to commit to wanting to invest in that friendship.
(33:21):
And I don't think enough people because it's easy to
let friendships go. It's just easier if you think about
if you have children, you have a job, and you
have a partner. It's not that you would necessarily say, yeah,
I don't my friendships. In fact, they're probably the most
rewarding parts, but they're not as immediate in terms of
their demands, so I think they are things that often
(33:42):
fall by the wayside. So people really need to remember
that it's just like investing in your physical health.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Do you think as well we over prioritize the importance
of romantic relationships and deprioritize how fundamental friendship is in
terms of our long term happiness and our long terms
of not being lonely.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Absolutely, And in my book I talk about the eight
different sources of connection, so I call it the connection wheel,
and your romantic partner is one of those. So if
you think about the eight sources of connections as like
a pizza, and so it's your connection pizza with eight slices.
Your romantic relationship is one slice of that pizza. But
(34:23):
we've been told that it's the whole pizza or seven slices.
We've been told it's the reverse. And so we invest
so much in that romantic relationship, and we have the
rituals with that person, and we want them to know
that we're committed, But in fact, a healthy life is
much more diversified. Absolutely, you're going to have to prioritize
(34:44):
a romantic partner in certain ways that you may not
prioritize anyone else. But it doesn't mean that you don't
have sources. So, now knowing this stuff, I never I
didn't research this stuff until a few years ago. Now
that I know it, I will look at my calendar
and I will think of the different sources of connection.
So we're talking about friendships here, but I think the
(35:07):
greatest source of loneliness is the relationship that we all
have with ourselves. So I think it's that most people
are on their own and feel a profound sense of
I don't want to label it because for everyone it's different.
But different people will say to me that on their own,
they feel anxious on their own, they feel depressed on
their own, they feel sad, despair, a lack of hope.
(35:27):
Are just confusion. I don't know what to do. I
think my main message would be if you can figure
out a way to feel happy on your own, that's
the first step that you have nailed. And this is
something that I've really struggled with. I'm one of five children,
so I was never on my own growing up. It
was just it was not something that so I've had
(35:47):
to work on that and that is still something that
I have to consciously say to myself, Okay, by the
end of today, how do I want to feel? What
are the things that I would love to have done
on a Sunday or on a Monday, even do that
at work? How would I love to feel going off
to sleep tonight? And what would I love to have accomplished?
And I think if we start asking those questions, the
(36:10):
way we spend our time alone or with others is
very different, because what we tend to do is we
think we're on our own. We're not intentional about it.
We're not conscious about it. And then we might go
on social media and we might say, oh, that person
just went paddle warning at the beach. I'm a loser.
Why don't I do things like that? Oh they've gone
for an ocean, so we oh they're out at brunch.
Oh my gosh. And then we just go into this
(36:31):
spiral which then piles on and makes the time alone
even worse or even harder. So what I'd love for
people to do, it's not just about like find hobbies.
Whenever anyone says that to I don't think I have
any hobbies. But then someone if someone was to say,
but what do you like to do? I'd go, oh, well,
that and that and that and but I would never
think of them as a list of hobbies. But if
you can stop that spiral of comparison of how you
(36:55):
think your life or your day or your weekend should
look and start to actually sit down, get pen and paper,
go old school. What are the things I love to do?
And I actually went through this whole process a few
years ago, and I made a list. I've a list
on my phone of things that I love to do.
So whenever I start to go in a spiral. If
I am on my own, I'll consult the list and
(37:17):
actually go oh oh yeah, actually I do there are
things that I really do love to do. And once
you get okay with that time on your own, people
pick up on that. People pick up that you're bouncing
on this vibe where you're okay on your own, you're
okay in a group, and you're okay one on one.
And what's really interesting as well is in my research
five thousand people of research, sixty percent of people say
(37:39):
that their preferred mode of connection is in a group
of three to five is golden number. So again, if
that's where psychological safety is, maybe think about that, Maybe
think about organizing some things with three to five people,
because a lot of people find time alone very confronting,
a lot of people find one on one very confronting.
(38:00):
But in a small group that seems to be the
golden number for psychological safety.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Alie, can you tell us as well? You mentioned that
there's eight pieces of the pie. What are the full
eight pieces?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
So we've got self time with self time in nature,
so connection to land, This is something that I think
all of us need to think more about. So sense
of place, so that's the second one. And then we
have family of origin. So if you have people who
were parents, you brothers and sisters, that kind of thing.
Your current family, so that could be your partner, your children,
(38:35):
whatever family you have. Now friends, community, and then your
so this is your community as in I go to
my son's rugby and see the people on the sidelines,
or I'm at the school and I'm involved in the
school in that way. And then what I call collective
belonging or out in the world. So people I might
see at the dog park, I don't know their name,
but we see each other every morning. Hi, Hey, you going,
(38:57):
and just it's that kind of local identity, national identity.
Collective belonging is really potent when we go overseas and
you might see another Australian or you might see another
person from your country and you just have this moment
of oh, you feel connected to that person. That's collective belonging.
It's we are connected because of our shared circumstance. So
they're the eight sources and each of them are equally important.
(39:21):
And so what COVID did is it actually removed the
social group and the community and the collective belonging. So
we lost that top layer of connections, and I think
that's why so many people couldn't really name what was wrong,
because they might have been like, well, what you know,
I can go for a walk, I'm here, I can
see people in my loco, in my street, or in
(39:42):
my house.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I'm still zooming people every day. I'm on FaceTime, I'm
on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, why is it weird that I can't just sit
in a cafe and sort of see the people that
I would normally see in my day to day. So
I think that's a shock to people that all eight
of those connection sources are equally important. So yesterday, as
an example, I took myself for a walk up to
the local shopping center and I just wanted to get
my toenails done. Too much detail, sorry, but I just
(40:10):
thought I'll walk there.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
That would be too much detail. Put them on the screen.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Nothing out of the ordinary, just your standard pedicure anyway.
But there were people that I saw the way on
that walk. There was this lovely older lady and she
she sort of stopped at the top of these edges,
just catching my breath, and I just stopped and had
a chat with her. That is collective belonging, and people
don't realize that those sorts of incidental connections are so
key to our health and well being. And I think
what happens is a lot of people. Let's do a
(40:37):
typical day in the life for someone, and this is
what people don't realize is a lot of younger people
suffer from loneliness more so than any other demographic. So
eighteen to thirty is the highest experience of loneliness. So
if you I mentioned a day in the life of someone,
so they don't know anything about loneliness, they don't even
know how to identify it in themselves. They might wake up,
they might have been out the night before not feeling great.
(40:58):
The we so they wake up, that's help their phone,
that's their first source of connection, and they start saying,
you know, they fall into that comparison spiral on social media, Oh,
this person's doing this, this person's doing this, and then
they just feel a bit like they're in despair. I
want to say to that person, if you go through
your I whittle it down to four stages of belonging.
(41:21):
So we start off with natural belonging. Okay, so I've
got to work on my intention for today how do
I want to feel the end of today? Oh, well,
I want to feel even if it feels unreal or unrealistic.
I would love to feel happy, and I'd love to
feel like I've exercised, and I'd love to feel like
I've eaten well, and I'd love to anyway, So set
an intention. Then the second one is belonging with one
(41:43):
other person. So belonging in a meaningful connection. Who is
a person that you might be able to send a
text to or make a phone call to. Could be
your mom and your dad, your brother's sister, your friend,
anyone that you care about, your auntie, anyone in your circle.
So then you have The next one is connection. The
next one is collective belonging. You might not get through
all four of those in one given day, but all
(42:06):
of those are equally important. So now let's shift back
to this person who's lying down on their phone. Oh
hold on, this isn't making me feel good. I'm actually
feeling lonely, scrolling through social media to put my phone down.
How I want to feel today is I actually want
to feel really vital. Actually I might go and go
for a swim somewhere. Actually I might go and do
a class somewhere. Actually, I might go and get my
(42:27):
nails done. Actually I might go and see if I
can catch up with a friend. I know that they've
just had a baby and they might be feeling lonely.
Do you see how once you shift out of the
comparison spiral into intentionality, you start having thoughts that had
not occurred to you previously. You start having insights, You
start thinking of others. You start realizing, actually, common humanity,
(42:47):
we're all in this together. Everyone struggling, Everyone struggles with
this stuff because we no longer live in a village
of two hundred people where I walk out of my
door and I know everyone's name and that's the extent
of my community.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I also think it's interesting that you say it's for
people eighteen to thirty, and I would say that the twenties,
in terms of when I unpacked my own life, were
the hardest years of knowing who I was, and it
was this still trying to figure out what I wanted
in life, who I wanted to be in life, trying
to find someone to be with. Like, it's a real
(43:18):
period for so many people of longing to fit in
and figuring out who you actually are, which I totally
think contributes to that. So there's no surprise to me
that that is the age of which people feel it
the most overall. But I also would love to know.
Do you think that people are more lonely now or
just that we're talking about it more now, just that
(43:40):
we have words for what people are experiencing.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
No. I think people are more lonely now, and I
think it's because the world has changed so much that
people are really unclear on social roles. So it used
to be that if you were born, let's say one
hundred years ago, your life was pretty much mapped out
from birth, so you could say this is what will happen.
I will be married at some point. All of my
(44:04):
friends will go through the exact same thing. I will
probably have children. I'm talking about the three of us,
by the way, and so it was all mapped out
for us. Now that caused its only loneliness. I'm not
saying that was a perfect condition. I'm not in any
way saying that was an ideal state. But there was
something comforting in that. There was relief in that, even
in our mother's generation or the one above, if they
(44:26):
were at home with children, you could probably bet that
there was someone on that street also at home with children. Now,
if you have a baby, there's no guarantee that there's
anyone on your street who is at home with the baby.
The baby may be with a nanny, the baby may
be in daycare, the baby may be who knows everyone's life.
Similar to what I was saying before about the routine.
So if you think about going from school to going
(44:48):
to add into the world in terms of what happens
to our routines, the exact same thing has now happened
with social roles. So all of the decline of religion,
the move from regional and rural communities to urban communities,
the increase in office work and also working from home,
the nuclear family is no longer all of these, so
(45:09):
that we've changed more in the last fifty years than
sort for hundreds of years before it. So I think
people are a lonely because they're confused, existentially confused. What
on earth am I supposed to be doing with my life?
A woman now is should I have children at all?
Versus someone who might say, well, I know I want
(45:32):
to have children, but how many.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
There's so many options, and the grass is always greener.
So now we can sit at home and be like, well,
maybe I should have been doing that. Maybe I can
still do that. Maybe I don't have to stay at
home with my baby, because no other mother on the
streets staying home with the baby. Everyone else is going
to work and getting a nanny and putting their kids
in school. And there's this constant snowball effect of never
(45:54):
being comfortable in what you have and never been content
in what you have, and always wanting more. And I
think that indirectly circles to that feeling of loneliness.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I totally agree. It's almost like loneliness is the inevitable
conclusion of a world where we are conditioned to never
be content with the moment that we're in. And I
think this is everybody's struggle. And if we all can
acknowledge that we're all going through that struggle, that am
I on the right track? Am I doing what I
(46:23):
should be doing? Is there a better option? All they
seem to be doing something great? Should I be doing
that as well? I think we need to get rid
of that existential angst about what we're supposed to be
doing and get back to our values. So I would
just love I mean, if I could jump into the
home or the sound, that's going to sound a bit creepy,
but every single person listening, I would love to be
(46:45):
able to sit with them and say, Okay, let's figure
out your values. What matters to you most deeply? When
you pull away all of the dressing on top, you know,
all of the noise, take away all the noise, what
do you deeply care about? Let's get to the end
end of your life and look back. What is going
to make you most proud, what is going to make
you most gratified, and what's going to be most meaningful
(47:07):
for you. That's a good place to start to figure
out what loneliness is going to be for that person,
because it's different for everyone. And so I think these
are the conversations that we need to start having rather
than what are they doing? That's what we're asking, what's
this other person doing because maybe that's what I should
be doing. No, you need to start by saying what
(47:30):
do I deeply value and what is going to make
me most proud? Because your answer is going to be
different to somebody else's answer. And the most powerful people
on the planet are the people who know what they
want and have the courage to go after it.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Ali, thank you so much for sharing. And also we
enjoyed the conversation we had around connections so much earlier
this year, and I know we touched on it then
around loneliness and how this is such a part of
the topic that's expanded from what you have spoken about
in Click and Clash, and we so appreciate you sharing
your wisdom, your pizza, your pizza with us and not
(48:09):
giving us a slice and making us feel like we belong.
And also, you know, at the end of the day,
I think one of the big driving forces around us
creating Life Uncut was the incredible community that we have
been able to build off the back of it. And
like I said earlier, one of the big questions that
we get week in week out is around friendship and
how can we make more friends and how can we
feel like we have a community. And so I think
(48:30):
it's these kinds of conversations that really help to drive
people in the right direction and give them the tools
to do that.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, and to anyone that's listening now to this episode
on loneliness, maybe you've come here and you're not a
listener of Life Uncut, maybe WHI are a listener of
Life Uncut, but I cannot stress enough join our Life
Uncut discussion group because the feedback that we get from
that is a sense of belonging, is the community. It
circles back to what you spoke about before, Ali, where
we want to feel like we're a part of something.
(48:58):
And the number of people that have come in to
Life on Cut and that discussion group alone and left
with so many friends and so many connections is the
best part of the job. So if this is you
and you have been brought to this episode for whatever
reason and you're not a part of that Life Discussion
group community, please like that is like the number one
step I feel like to go and make friends as
(49:19):
an adult and to feel that connection and that sense
of community and belonging.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
Yeah, you've genuinely created collective belongso for people.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Thank you so much, Ali, Thank you
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