The Subtle Art of compromise, priorities and not bullshitting yourself - UNCUT with MARK MANSON

Today's episode is with one of the most successful authors of our time and the man who is known globally for not giving a f*ck. Mark Manson's book the subtle art of not giving a f*ck sold more than 10 million copies. Mark brought his unique perspective on happiness, relationship dynamics, and the delicate art of recognising when it's time to break up.

We spoke about:

• When is it time to break up vs what is a normal ebb and flow of a long term relationship?
• What's good compromise and what's people pleasing and lacking boundaries?
• What indicates whether a couple can survive one of them cheating?
• The need for healthy conflict and how to have healthy conflict
• Opportunity costs and inherent sacrifice 
• Fleeting happiness

You can find all of Mark's work here! His newsletter, books and podcasts are fantastic.

If you have an question please send it on it to life uncut podcast on Instagram here

Join us on tiktok

Or join the facebook group here

Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xx

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands
were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders
past and present, Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
This episode was recorded on Drug Wallamuta Land. Hi guys,

(00:23):
and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany, and we have a bloody good
interview for you guys today. Now, if you've been listening
to podcasts for a very long time, you may have
heard a couple of years ago we interviewed Mark Manson.
It was one of our most downloaded episodes. And we
have Mark Manson back and he's joining us on today's episode.
If you don't know who Mark Manson is, you definitely

(00:47):
know his work. He is the writer of the book
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. He has
authored four books in total, and his second one, which
is Everything is Fucked, a book about hope. It's truly
incredible how he manages to unpack all of the self
help jargon, all of the things that we know we
should be doing in our lives, but he does it
in such a way that is very relatable and it

(01:08):
is also not necessarily done in the way that you
would expect from a self help guru. The other thing
as well that Mark has, if you guys, are not
subscribed to it, is that he does a weekly newsletter.
I have been subscribed to his weekly newsletter four years.
I genuinely love so much his insight and his deep dives.
His weekly deep dives into different aspects of life and

(01:29):
how to navigate love, relationships, and just be a better
human without all the fluffy woo woundness that sometimes comes
with the self help industry.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I feel like he's that type of person that doesn't
tell you what you want to hear, even though it is,
like you just said, Laura, it's a self help book,
but it's not. He gives it to you hard, but
he does it in a way that's so caring as
well and so insightful, and you know he's been there himself.
You know he's experienced it, and it makes you want
to be harder.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
And better on yourself simultaneously.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
I don't know if that makes sense, but it gives
yourself tough love because sometimes you don't want to hear
something and you'll go around it's like this bias, right,
you go around and ask all these people their opinions
until somebody tells you what you want to hear. Mark
does do that, and I think that's one of my
favorite things about him.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
If you kind of weren't in the world of Mark Manson,
and you hadn't really listened to or read any of
his stuff, if you looked at one of his pieces
of self help, you may think that he's quite a pessimist.
You might think that he's quite pessimistic in the way
in which he delivers the information that he has. But
I think so much that it's not pessimism, it's realism.
And sometimes I think we can show up to this

(02:34):
idea of, like, you know, being a better person, this
self help ideology, and it can be so aspirational that
it's not achievable. And we all know the right things
that we should be doing with our life, we know
the right way to behave in a relationship, We've read
the books, we know the information, but it doesn't mean
that that's actually how you apply it in your own life.
Like we can all give the advice, sometimes we can't

(02:55):
take it for ourselves. And that's what I love about
the way in which Mark gives the information and the
way in which he unpacks it. He is very realistic
to how we show up in relationships, talking about happiness,
talking about fighting and conflict in relationships, talking about resolution,
and I guess ultimately how we are all flawed and
how we all make mistakes, but what can we do

(03:17):
to be better people at the end of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Some of the other stuff that we talked about is
healthy conflict, how to have healthy conflict. A question that
we get all the time, which is should you break
up or is it a normal ebb and flow? Like
should you see something out? Is this normal part of
a relationship? Should I pack up and leave shop? Which
I think resonates with a lot of people. We speak
about if people can survive cheating, opportunity costs, and inherent sacrifice,

(03:42):
what they mean and what the difference is. It's truly
a very insightful chat. I learned a lot from it
and I'm really excited to bring it to you today. Now,
last time you joined the pod Mike, it was about
three years ago you probably don't even remember now, and
you were in New Zealand at the time. You shared
an accidentally unfiltered your embarrassing story from when you were
a kid and you ran across the street naked on
a deer.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Your brother and his friends had.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Stolen your clothes and locked the door, and we had
we had a good old chuckle about that.

Speaker 4 (04:07):
Welcome back to the podcast.

Speaker 5 (04:09):
Thanks thanks for reminding me of that mtatic memory.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
The deep trauma that you hit suppressed over all these years. Mark,
before we get into all of the unpacking of relationships,
we are not going to let you off scott free.
I am hoping that you've done something since the time
you run naked through the streets to embarrass yourself again.

Speaker 5 (04:26):
Oh I know, I was thinking about this earlier. So okay.
Twenty nineteen was maybe one of the busiest years of
my career. I was simultaneously working on three books at
the same time. So my follow up to Subtle Art
was coming out. She's called Everything As Fucked Got Hope.
I was finishing an audiobook original for Amazon, and then

(04:48):
I was also starting on the Will Smith book. So
all this was happening at the same time. And right
in the middle of this, my agent came to me
and she said, Oh, we're so excited about your book launch.
We want a book like a twenty City speaking tour
for you, and of course my dumb ass who can't
say no to anything, was like, sure, that sounds great.

(05:08):
And it literally got to be the night before my
speaking tour start and I still didn't have a talk ready.
So the first date was in New York City. It
was a sold out theater of probably like six hundred people,
and I basically got up on stage and started winging
the talk and I kind of just followed where the

(05:29):
chuckles went, and I made a joke about sex robots
and I got a really big laugh, and I'm like, oh, cool,
so this is this is my thing. Tonight I went
on like a ten minute diversion in the sex robots
and the place got so quiet. It's so awkward that
I honestly like I didn't think I was going to recover.
And then finally, like the MC got on stage, it

(05:50):
was like, uh, okay, so many questions. That was the
kickoff of my speaking tour of twenty nineteen.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
I mean, it's a good.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Hunt pivot when you've done it once, you know, Okay,
maybe that gear is not going to land. I'll change
it for the next show. But did this come from
like unbridled confidence? Or was it just total lack of preparation.

Speaker 5 (06:09):
Complete lack of preparation. It was so that first date
was a complete and utter disaster, one of the most
embarrassing public appearances of my life. The second date was okay,
it was hit or miss. I think by like the
third or fourth date, I had kind of gotten a
talk together and then and then I actually finished the

(06:30):
tour in Australia, So by the time I got to Australia,
it was like nailed practice, knew everything front the back.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
There's so many things that we wanted to talk to
you about because the topics in which you cover they're
so diverse. Most of it comes back down to relationships.
But we thought we would navigate this conversation more so
around the questions we get asked on our podcast by
our listeners and have someone who truly has experience to
answer some of them. Now, one of the things that
we face pretty often is a conversation around and longtime

(07:01):
relationships and understanding whether something is just like going through
a rocky patch in a relationship or whether it's an
irreparable difference, and when to know how to leave a
relationship or when you should leave a relationship for you,
What are the key indicators that a relationship has come
to the end of its lifespan.

Speaker 5 (07:18):
I think the first thing you have to ask yourself,
and the most important thing, is, first of all, are
both people aware of the problem, Because sometimes one person
thinks there's a problem and the other person doesn't. Are
both people aware there's a problem and are both people
willing to work on it. If one person in the
relationship is not willing to work on it, and no
matter what you say to that person, it doesn't change

(07:41):
their mind, nothing's going to change. There's nothing you can
do other than wait around and hope. But if both
people aren't on the same page and recognizing the problem
and being willing to work on the problem, then everything
else is just off the table, like there's not even
really anything else to talk about, nothing's going to change.
So assuming both people are on the same page that
there's a problem, there's an issue it needs to be

(08:02):
worked on. I think the second question is, in the
process of working on the relationship, does it feel like
things are getting better or are they getting worse? Because
a lot of times what happens is people recognize the problem,
they start working on the problem, they start trying to
compromise on things and they actually end up making themselves
even more miserable. And to me, that's usually an indication

(08:24):
that there are just some very fundamental differences in values
or philosophies or wherever each person is in their life,
and it's going to be very very hard to come
back from that. Generally speaking, when you are both in
a good relationship or a healthy relationship, that's going to
improve the more you work on it, the more you
get back from it. And obviously, like it's not always

(08:45):
like that from like the first minute, but generally speaking,
within a couple of weeks or a few months, you
should start feeling things get better and not just worse.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
What do you think about these general normal ebbs and
flows in a relationship where you go through these times
in a long term lationship where you're like, mm, we're
not fighting, like there's nothing wrong, but the chemistry is
not there anymore.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
It's plateaued a little bit. You're just cruising through life.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Because a lot of people will then write in and say,
you know, I feel like we're just living, we're coexisting,
or it's boring.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
People love to say relationships shouldn't be work. It should
just be happy and connecting, and the sexual chemistry should
just be there. What are your thoughts on this.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
I think it's unrealistic to think that a relationship is
going to be ten out of ten in every category
until the end of time. Things are going to come
and go. You know, things are going to dip to
a six or seven in one category, and then they'll
come back a year or two later, they'll dip into
a five and another category, they'll come back a year later.
As long as it's not like a five in every category.

(09:47):
From you're probably okay. It's just a natural process of life.
You said something really interesting there, which is And I
hear this a lot too, as people complain that the
relationship is not fun anymore. And I think this is
a really serious misconception that a lot of people have.
Relationships are not supposed to be fun. You're not like

(10:08):
going to Disney World. It's this is life. It's a
life partner. That means that they're with you through the
sucky and unexciting parts of your life. They're there when
you have health problems, they're there when you have career problems.
You're there for them. When they have family problems, like
there's going to be long stretches that it's not necessarily

(10:29):
fun to be together, but you should still like being together.
You need something more than just fun keeping you together
because the fund's going to go away at some point.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
Everyone knows this.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Everyone knows that it's not something that is consistent and
can be maintained. But I think we all want to
think that we can have it, Like we will want
to think that our relationship will be the exception. And
then you get seven years in and you're like, is
this what we've become? I guess you touched on something earlier.
You talked about compromise, and I would love to know
in your eyes. I guess the balance and how important

(10:59):
comprom is in a relationship. But then how do you
ensure that you don't lose yourself within that relationship because
of compromise.

Speaker 5 (11:06):
Compromise is absolutely fundamental to any relationship. I think the
important thing to understand about compromise is that it's not
about making both people happy all the time. It's about
preventing misery. The example I give a lot is that
my wife is super super clean and I'm not. I
think most relationships have one person who's the clean person

(11:27):
and one person who's not. She is very very high
standards of cleanliness, and it would be unreasonable for me
to try to match her expectations perfectly. But what we've
realized is that if I just make myself like ten
percent cleaner, it reduces her stress and pain by like

(11:50):
ninety percent, right, So that's like a really good return.
If I just do these things every once in a while,
if I just pick this up when I'm done with it,
it makes her like fifty percent happier that day. So
those are the sorts of compromises that you want to
look for, is like, what are the things that doesn't
bother me a whole lot to give up, but it
increases the other person's happiness significantly. The mistake that a

(12:11):
lot of people make is they give up too much.
They give up fifty percent of themselves to make the
other person ten percent happier, and that's just a terrible
trade off.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
So how do you manage that compromise then, especially if
you are a pay per plays off?

Speaker 5 (12:23):
Yeah, Actually, the most important thing I think is for
both people have to realize that you're different people. So
you're gonna have different standards around stuff. Everybody has different
standards around cleanliness, around money, around raising kids, lifestyle preferences,
lifestyle habits, like, we're all going to be different, and
I think the first thing is that you need it
needs to be okay to be different. You can't judge

(12:45):
your partner, or your partner can't judge you for having
a different standard of cleanliness or whatever. We just have
to understand, like, Okay, you have a higher standard of cleanliness,
I have a higher standard of spending money, or you know,
whatever it is. Once you're able to acknowledge those things
in each then you can discuss it. That's when you
can start finding the compromise, Like, Okay, you like to
spend more than I do, So what's the amount that

(13:07):
I'm fine with that can still make you happy? You
want things to be cleaner than I do, So what's
the amount that I can get? You know, if I
spend fifteen minutes a day doing this, this, and this,
how much happier will that make you? It's almost like negotiating.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
I would love to know from your perspective. I mean,
you received so many questions. I can only assume from
your listeners, what do you think of the number one
relationship or life questions that people are struggling with, I.

Speaker 5 (13:32):
Mean, I would say two thirds of the relationship questions
I get are some permutation of a boundaries issue of
somebody who is taking on too much responsibility for their
partner's life, or is allowing their partner to control too
much of their own life and isn't aware of it
or doesn't realize it, and it shows up in so

(13:53):
many different forms. I personally have found that just a
basic understanding around boundaries and having strong, communicating strong boundaries
within a relationship is like the simple thing that immediately
makes a relationship eighty percent better.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
If you have been very weak in your boundaries throughout
your entire relationship, and it's something that's eroded over time,
how do you then kick into gear. Okay, this is
mam Manson says, this is going to fix our relationship.
How are we going to start implementing some boundaries here,
because I would assume that usually from the person who
is breaching those boundaries, they would respond to that poorly.

Speaker 5 (14:27):
They usually do. Yeah, if you take a relationship with
really poor boundaries and then you start implementing good boundaries
in it, one of two things happens. Either it fixes
the relationship and it's kind of an ugly messy process,
or it just ends because the other person is no
longer getting what they're there for. But generally, boundaries, like anything,

(14:50):
it's starting with the small stuff and working up, you know,
I think people generally, if you're a people pleaser or
somebody really really struggles to have difficult, uncomfortable conversations, then
it's best to start with the small, uncomfortable conversations, the
little things. Why did you use my car without asking
me where were you last night? Why didn't you call?

(15:11):
Little things like that? And again, you're not trying to
pick a fight, which I think this is a mistake
a lot of people make. They're like, oh, he did
something wrong or she did something wrong, let me get
them for it. It's not about that. It's about Look,
you've just been doing shit wrong whenever you feel like it,
without any consequences. I want you to know now that

(15:31):
there are going to be consequences, because that's essentially what
a boundary is is. It's kind of creating like an
if then statement for the relationship. If you go out
at night and don't call me, then I'm just going
to assume the worst. Or if you take my car
without permission, you know, you know, I'm going to do
X y Z, like you have to start implementing rules

(15:53):
and consequences. And this makes people who are bad at boundaries,
this always makes them feel really uncomfortable because they tend
to have these romantic notions of like, well, you know,
I don't want to put limits on each other, and
you know we should just be able to like live
in harmony as no, no, no, we're fucking humans and we
if you give us an inch, we'll take a mile,
and we're fundamentally selfish, even with people that we love.

(16:15):
So rules are good for everybody. Rules are good for
your partner and they're good for you, and they make
sure that you don't fuck each other over and you
don't take advantage of each other. So it's like good
to get really clear on them what you expect from
each other, what you'll tolerate, what you won't tolerate in
each other, and get on the same page and then
consistently have those conversations that stay on the same page.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
But I think.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Boundaries are only going to work and only be going
to be a positive thing in your relationship, if you're
actually going to stick to them, Like you have to
ask yourself if you are going to stick to these
boundaries or not.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
There's no point setting them.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
And then when it happens like you know, my non negotiable,
my boundary is cheating. They cheat, You're like, oh, it's
okay because I'm too weak and too scared to be
alone and leave. If you don't or you are not
going to stick by them, don't set them one hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (16:56):
Words don't mean shit. People really overestimate words. They're like,
but I told you not to do that. It's like, well,
you're not doing anything. It's like it's like if you
were raising a kid, like a three year old I am.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
I can imagine it.

Speaker 5 (17:11):
Always testing boundaries, right, They're always testing your boundaries, and
you can tell them don't do that, don't do that,
don't do that. If they do it and nothing happens,
you just kind of sit there and yell at them.
They're going to keep doing it. And that's just human nature.
It's not about being a good person or bad parton
it's just human nature. We operate on incentives, and so
unless there is some sort of negative consequence for our actions,

(17:32):
we're going to keep doing the action.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
What's the impact though, that it has on our I
guess our self worth. Like, if we are in a
situation where you're prioritizing maintaining the relationship, keeping the relationship
because you're so scared of losing it that therefore you
compromise some of those boundaries that you've put in place,
what is the negative impact that has.

Speaker 5 (17:49):
So it's a spiral that works in both the directions.
So you know the downward spiral is you have no
self worth. So you're so desperate to keep the relationship
that you let your partner walk all over you and
you don't enforce any boundaries because you have no self worth.
And the fact that you don't enforce the boundaries lowers
your self worth, which makes it harder to enforce boundaries.
Which you know, it's a feedback loop that just keeps

(18:11):
going into TIA. Sure, but you can spin that around
the other way because as soon as you start enforcing boundaries,
what you're essentially telling your unconscious brain is I matter,
My values and my expectations matter, and in this case
they matter more than my partner's behavior. And you are
putting into practice that belief, and so that builds self esteem.

(18:34):
And the more you do that, the more self esteem
it builds, the easier it becomes to enforce other boundaries.
And so this kind of comes back to to start
small and kind of work your way up to the
big conversation. And generally what you'll find too is the
big conversation will show up anyway if you start the
small convers Like if you start the conversation about taking
the car out without your permission, suddenly you end up

(18:54):
at like, well, you never respected me, and you fucking
cheated on me with this person, and now everything's out
in the open. So you need to flip the script
and get the spiral working in the other direction.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Well, what do you think about cheating in a relationship
and coming back from cheating in a relationship? Do you
think cheating has to be the end of the relationship
or do you think it's something that you know you
can find forgiveness and can make the relationship better and
you can move forward.

Speaker 5 (19:18):
I don't think it has to be the end. I
think obviously it often is, but I think that the
thing that is the end of the relationship, that cheating
causes is the breach of trust. So you can't have
a relationship without trust, and so if cheating happens, the
project afterwards is it's really about rebuilding trust within the relationship.

(19:39):
And it's a very very difficult process and obviously a
lot of it has to do with the circumstances that
the cheating happened under and how each person reacts to it,
et cetera.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
I think an interesting question off the back of this
is we often sort of unpack is cheating the end
of a relationship and we kind of go, no, it
doesn't have to be, which you know, it doesn't have
to be.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
I believe that. Have I experienced it, No, it's always
been the end of my relationships. To be honest, I.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Think it's easy to say, oh, it doesn't have to
be the end of your relationship. You can work through it,
But like, it's fucking hard to And I think anyone
who's ever been cheated on realistically would say ninety nine
point nine percent of the times it does. It is
the start of the demise. What are the relationships that
are different, What are the ones that actually are able
to overcome the cheating? Like, what is the thing that
if you are cheated on, should be the indicator that

(20:25):
you can actually work through it, rather than knowing, okay,
well this is the beginning of the end.

Speaker 5 (20:29):
Well. I think a lot of it boils down to
the person who cheated needs to have some degree of
understanding or awareness of why they cheated. I think cheating
rarely just happens in a vacuum, Like it's rare that
a person simply cheats because they're bored or horny and
there's an attractive stranger next to them. And if it
does happen in that circumstance, they're a fucking terrible partner anyway.

(20:51):
So the cheating's not even the biggest issue. Usually cheating
happens because there's some other underlying issue that's gone on
for a long time and hasn't been discussed or resolve.
And so I think a lot of the work around
the cheating is to figure out what is actually the
motivation here, Like why would you why would it feel

(21:13):
worth it to break that trust that you've built over
so many years for just like a simple one night
stand or whatever. And that's a really important discussion to
have and to figure out, and it can take a
long time to figure that out, and it's probably different
for a lot of people. So I think until if
you can get an understanding around that, like if you

(21:33):
can get the person who cheats is like, you know what,
like I've been really unhappy and depressed for a long time,
and you know, we've grown distant and I feel disconnected
from you and I'm just in a bad place and
I met this person And if they show an awareness
or an understanding of that, and then you can actually
start talking about the more fundamental issue of like, Okay,
well why were you depressed, why were we disconnected? Why

(21:54):
weren't you coming to me with these issues before? Why
weren't we talking about this? Then you can start to
rebuild that trust and understanding. But if the person doesn't
have that awareness to begin with, then you're probably not
going to get anywhere.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
You spoke about conflict and you said that, you know,
we can talk about boundaries and we can initiate these
small conversations and it's not about having a fight. But
is there ever a positive from having real conflict in
your relationship? Obviously there's healthy ways to have conflict, in
very unhealthy ways to have conflict, but surely in some
of these instances when you are setting boundaries, it's actually
healthy to have a fight and to have some sort

(22:31):
of conflict.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
You have to have conflict because again it comes back
to both people are different. Both people have different values,
Both people have different expectations for their lives, and sometimes
those expectations or values are going to clash or contradict.
And so if you're not occasionally having a fight about it,
or at least arguing about it, then that probably means

(22:52):
both of you aren't being one hundred percent open or
forthright with what you feel or believe. This also relates
to the trust piece too, because if you never fight
about anything in a way, so you know, people pleasers,
they never want to fight because there ultimately it's like
a fear of abandonment. It's like, well, if I fight
about this, then maybe he or she will leave me

(23:13):
and then I'll be alone. But if you're never fighting
about anything, then you never actually know how either of
you really feels. And if you're actually committed to the relationship,
if you have the fight and then you wake up
the next day and the person's still there and they
still love you and they still respect you, then that
actually affirms the trust because you're like, well, we just

(23:36):
had this big fight. We see this thing completely differently.
We're struggling through it, but they're still here and they're
still showing up, and they still love me just as
much as they did yesterday. That sense, it's actually really
good for the relationship. Fighting is again it can be
done in a healthy in an unhealthy way, and I
think healthy fighting is not only inevitable, but it's probably good. Mark.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Two things I've heard you talk about inherent sacrifice and
opportunity costs, and I think the two link together.

Speaker 4 (24:03):
And something you.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Said at the very beginning of the episode was, you know,
they asked me to do a twenty city book to
our and of course, because I can't say no an opportunity,
I said yes, and I jumped in, can you talk
to us about inherent sacrifice opportunity cost How they link.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
It's the economics one on one. There is no free lunch.
Everything has an opportunity cost. Anything you prioritize in your life,
it means you have to deprioritize something else. And I
think this is another thing that a lot of people
kind of delude themselves about. You'll meet a guy who
works eighty hours a week and he's like, oh, family's
everything to me, So well, dude, you haven't been home
in like three days. So we can trick ourselves a

(24:39):
lot by telling ourselves that we value something, but we're
continually compromising that thing to chase something else. And this
is an area where I think, I'm a very deep
believer that the quality of our relationships with other people
is very much a reflection of our relationship with ourselves.
So if we are bullshitting ourselves, if I'm telling myself

(24:59):
that that, you know, oh, my family's everything, I would
give up anything for them, and I'm like running off
and doing three months speaking tours every year, I'm bullshitting myself.
That's an issue with my relationship with myself. I am
lying to myself. I'm in denial about something. I'm like
not owning up to some of my own values and prioritizations.

(25:20):
And then that's going to bleed into my relationship with
my wife. She's gonna be like, well, what the fuck
You're never home? You know, I thought I thought we
were number one. And I'm not going to be prepared
for that conversation because I'm lying to myself. So I
can't even defend myself properly because I'm just full of shit.
So I think we all do this to a certain extent,
and I think this is where kind of improving our

(25:42):
awareness and our relationship with ourselves has like knock on
effects with other people. And I think for me at
that time in my life, I really you know, I
went through a situation where my career just kind of
blew up like ten x very very quickly, within the
span of like a year, year and a halfuddenly found
myself with all these crazy opportunities that I was like,

(26:03):
oh my god, I can't believe I'm getting offered this
right now. I just said yes to everything, because shit,
who knows if this will ever come around again, And
to a certain extent, I don't necessarily regret that, but
it definitely ended up causing a lot of problems in
other areas of my life because I was again, I
wasn't aware that I was necessarily deprioritizing other things in

(26:24):
my life when I did that.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
I actually love this example because I deeply relate to it,
and also I've seen it play out in so many
of my friends' relationships. It's so easy to say that
the most important thing to you is your family. The
most important thing to you is your relationship. And then
you know, I'm doing all this for the family. I'm
working so hard to make money so that we can
pay off our mortgage and we can do this and

(26:47):
do that. But really, and it's a conversation I've had
with my husband a lot recently. The reason why I
personally work so hard is because I love working. And
it's actually not to pay off the mortgage, because as
much as that's important, we both contribute to it. How
do you, I guess, like front up those realizations, like
when you have been and maybe it's because their priorities shift,

(27:08):
so like maybe in that year of your life, those
priorities did shift. For that year, the most important thing
to you was your work and without realizing it. But
then how do you have those conversations around us shift
in priorities or making space to juggle both with the
people that are important to you. Because we've kind of
been fed this idea that you can have it all
and you can have it all at the same time

(27:28):
and you can do all the things, but we actually
fucking can't. And when we try and do it all,
we do it all really poorly. So how would you
suggest people have those conversations with their partners?

Speaker 5 (27:39):
Well, the nice thing. It's funny because back then I
did have a conversation with my wife about it, and
I remember saying, like, hey, this could be my fifteen minutes.
These are contracts with a lot of zeros at the
of the number. You know this might go away. So
I'm still young, I should probably just say yes to everything.
And she was on board. So again it just comes

(28:00):
back to like and it's something you practice as a
couple too, of like, hey, I'm in a situation in
my life right now. These are my priorities or this
this is what makes sense to me. This is kind
of where I'm at. What I'm thinking. What do you
think does that work for you? Is this going to
cause problems for you? If it's going to cause problems, like,
how can we compromise and figure this out? What should

(28:20):
the compromise be. I just think it's like good relationship
hygiene to have these check ins whenever something significant in
either of your lives starts happening. And I know there's
even some people these days they have like a they'll
have like an annual review, like relationship review where they
kind of go through like like a health check. Yeah, like,

(28:42):
here are five categories. Here's how I'm feeling in this category.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Here's how I'm feeling about this is what you can
work on.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
It's so unromantic, but it's also so practical. And this
kind of comes back to like the long term relationships
are not necessarily fun, but they're good and they're very
satisfying and so but that's very different. And so I
think having some of these dull conversations about like how
are we feeling about our finances this year? How are
we feeling about our intimacy this year? How are we

(29:09):
feeling about our relationships with each other's families this year?
It's dull as shit, but like it probably needs to
be done at least once a year. So anyway back
to twenty nineteen, you know, I had that conversation with
my wife, and she was totally supportive and on board
with it, and it sucked for her. She spent a
lot of time at home that year, but it was fine,

(29:31):
Like we both kind of signed up for it beforehand.
What I didn't consider is how it would affect other
areas of my life. The two big ones, namely being
health and friendships, social relationships. I was never around. I
was on the road all the time. I was eating
garbage and being jet lag constantly and drinking way too much.
And it took a toll on a number of areas

(29:53):
in my life. And again, to your point, I think
I naively thought that I could have it all that,
all this other stuff, all these other areas of my
life that I had worked really hard on, I completely neglected,
and by the end of that period it was kind
of a mess.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Was this a very humbling experience for you? And I
asked this because as someone who gives advice around like
the philosophies of life, of how to be happy, of
like what is important in terms of figuring out priorities,
to then go through this period yourself where you're like.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
Oh, how did we end up here?

Speaker 5 (30:25):
It's terrible. It's like I can't tell you how many
times I would like talk to friends during this period.
I'd be like, man, I'm so stressed out and I
don't know what to do and blah blah blah blah blah.
And then my friend would look at me and be like,
you know, there's this book called and the guy, is
this really good point about choosing your problems?

Speaker 6 (30:42):
And I was just like, ah, it's so ironic, but
it's really affirming that if even you can find yourself
in these situations and you've done all the work, you've
done all the research, like you know the things and
the ways to apply it, Like what helped to the
people who haven't started to kind of chip away at
the self help?

Speaker 4 (30:57):
What help did they have? You know?

Speaker 2 (30:59):
And like I guess it's kind of almost giving yourself
a bit of grace that we all go through these
periods in life.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
But that just comes back to, like I mean, think
of how many times you can give advice to other
people because you know that's what they.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Should be doing. You don't take your own advice.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I guess you know, Mark's not immune to that.
Can Magie's career on giving the advice, But it's a
different kettle of.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Fish, and you've got to accept it yourself.

Speaker 5 (31:20):
I don't think we ever escape these issues. And it's
funny because I look back now at like the stuff
in the Subtle Art was very much motivated by the
problems in my life. Previous to Subtle Art, I naively
didn't think about the fact that I would be caught
off guard in the same way by the problems post
subtle art in the same way. So I just think,

(31:42):
to a certain extent, so much of this is just
baked into our nature, and it's we constantly have to
check ourselves and kind of fight against it. But even then,
none of us are going to be perfect. None of
us are going to get it right all the time.
It's almost like you just get better at stomaching the mistakes,
quicker at correcting them than really preventing them at all.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
With all the newsletters you've written, with all the thoughts
that you've put down pen to paper, what have been
and I guess the life lessons that have kind of
been the catalyst to have those conversations, What has been
the most profound moment where you've been like, well, that
was a real life changing revelation to me, Like, was
there something specific that happened to you or was there

(32:23):
a specific teaching that you were like this had the
biggest effect on my life personally.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
Well, it's hard because at this point I've been doing
this for almost fifteen years, and I think in every period,
like anybody, it's almost like you have like a greatest
Hits album from each decade of your life. You know,
It's like I can look at I can look at
my twenties and I'm like, yeah, those three or four
moments are kind of top of the charts, and my
thirties are kind of shaping up the same way. They're

(32:50):
a handful of moments that really were really formative. But
it's hard to point to just one. I know that's
kind of a cop out, but I mean what I
try to do with my work is to just stay
as honest as possible with I guess kind of whatever
I'm thinking about and whatever I'm going through, so that
it does evolve along kind of in parallel as my
personal evolution. And I'm always very careful to like never

(33:15):
hide the fact that I fucked these things up too,
because I think one of the things that I always
disliked about the self help industry is this guru idea
of like, ah, this is the guy on stage who's
got it all figured out. I just think that's bullshit.
I think that's completely unrealistic. I think it's much more
valuable to be open about the fact that, like, hey,

(33:35):
I got over that shit that I wrote about in
my twenties, but now I'm pushing forty and it's a
whole new bag of problems that I'm struggling with.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
So I think that's going to be our title of
the episode. I fuck this I fuck this stuff up too.
I think that's really important. I think what you just said,
everybody makes mistakes. It doesn't matter how many time you
give yourself your own advice. You know, you live and
you learn, and you're you're not also going to always
agree with something that you put out to the world
fifteen years ago, Lauren, I think that all the time.
Like we have five hundred episodes, and I think if

(34:03):
we went back and listened to some things we've said,
our opinion has probably changed on that in some capacity.
Because you grow with life, problems hit you differently, and
I think that's part of human nature, It's part of
the cycle. What are the three questions that we can
ask ourselves that determine ninety nine percent of happiness?

Speaker 5 (34:21):
I'm so glad you asked. I think about this all
the time.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
There may have been a conversation that just got deleted.
It this seems like a very different energy that you
listen to.

Speaker 5 (34:37):
All right, No, the three questions that determine ninety nine
percent of your happiness is who are you spending your
time with, what are you spending your time working on?
And how well are you treating your body?

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Why are they the three most important with psychological concepts.

Speaker 5 (34:52):
This stuff's not complicated. Our psychology is not changed at
all in the last ten thousand years. Society has changed,
so I think we have a tendency to make this
stuff way more complicated than it actually is. I think
the actual challenge is staying with the simplicity of this stuff.
If you look at the research on what drives life satisfaction,

(35:15):
the vast majority of it really comes down to are
you surrounded by people who care about you and that
you care about Are you working on something that feels
meaningful or worthwhile? And are you not treating your body
like shit like? Are you sleeping in a decent amount
or are you eating relatively healthy? Are you not you know,
drinking or doing drugs every night? As long as you're

(35:37):
basically doing decently on all three of those things, you're
probably gonna be a relatively happy person. You may not
be like maxed out, you know, skipping down the sidewalk
every morning, but who is And if you're lacking in
one of those three categories, then you're definitely gonna feel it.
And so I think sometimes people get so caught up

(35:57):
in all these like productivity systems and lifestyle seminars and
crazy relationship courses and all this stuff, and it's it's like, Okay,
are those three things in check? Because if they're not, like,
just start there. That's the most basic and fundamental thing
you can do. It's not exciting, it's not sexy, it
doesn't mark it super well, but that's actually probably what

(36:21):
most people need to hear.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
I also think we have such an aversion to feeling
anything other than that, because no one wants to feel uncomfortable.
No one wants to feel sad, no one wants to
feel angry, no one wants to feel grief. Like all
of those feelings, but they are a fundamental and equally
as valid an important part of the cycle of life
as happiness is. But we work so hard not to
feel any of those things, and sometimes when you're fighting

(36:43):
so much against it, but I think I give yourself
anxiety so you're gonna have something else to deal with.

Speaker 5 (36:48):
You should have all three of those categories. At a
at least a seven out of ten, and I think
as long as you've got all three of them there,
you're probably in a good spot. I think take a
lot of people make is that they'll kill themselves to
get one of the categories as a ten out of ten,
and then they'll sacrifice the other two to get there.
So they'll like completely screw their relationships and screw their

(37:10):
health like I did, to get what they're working on
at a ten out of ten, or they'll screw what
they're working on and screw their relationships to get their
health at a ten out of ten. It's really just
trying to be a seven or eight at all three
of them, and that's basically a life well lived.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
I think one of the ones and the relationships that
we deprioritize is often friendship, and that's one that you
touched on in terms of your own personal life. Like
we put so much importance, in so much weight on
romantic relationships, but I don't think that friendships get enough airtime,
and they're so important to our general happiness and to
fulfilling the cup in other areas and also like kind

(37:47):
of lightening the load on our romantic relationships.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
So we're not expecting every single thing from that person.

Speaker 5 (37:51):
Yeah, I feel like friendships are underrated, especially in this
day and age. It's interesting if you look at research
on people who are just single, by and large, they're
not any less happy than people who are in relationships.
I think people who are married are slightly happier, but
it also that varies a lot based on the quality
of the marriage. The point is is that nobody's miserable

(38:14):
as an average on a population level. People aren't miserable
if they're not in a relationship. But if you look
at friendships, if you look at people who don't have friendships,
it's fucking death. Like it's people with no social ties
or relationships. Their life expectancy is shorter than smokers, alcoholics,
you know, people who play in traffic.

Speaker 4 (38:34):
People who place trust.

Speaker 5 (38:35):
It's shocking, it's shocked. If you look at the psychological
data on loneliness and people who don't have any significant
social connect it's shocking. It's shockingly bad. It's absolutely atrocious.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Which is why, like, I think there needs to be
this reframe because I know that romantic relationships are important
and we I can't tell you how many questions we
receive from people who are who say, you know, my
friends are in relationships and all I want and I'm
you know, I can't stand another baby announcement, I can't
stand another happy couple photo.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
And I understand why.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
You know, it's very easy to be in a relationship
and then be like, don't worry about wanting to be
in a relationship. But at the same time, I do
think that sometimes we devalue how important friendships are and
how much they can fill the space of the longing
for a romantic relationship. And often people get into romantic
relationships and then they discard their friendships.

Speaker 5 (39:24):
Yeah, I think that's really unhealthy. I think in general,
it's unhealthy to make your romantic relationship your identity in
your life. It's healthy for both people to maintain an
independent identity outside of the relationship. But the other caveat
of that, what you just said is that if you're
not able to be happy single, then you're going to

(39:45):
attract a bad relationship.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (39:48):
It's only people who are a happy single that attract
happy relationships because they're already happy with themselves, they have
their own identity, they feel very satisfied with their lives,
they've got friends, they've got hobbies, they've got careers. It's
the people who feel like they're lacking something, who like,
I don't have a relationship, My life sucks, this is miserable.
They are the ones who are going to settle for

(40:09):
somebody who doesn't treat them well. They're the ones who
are going to not put up boundaries and enforce healthy
boundaries or have good communication within the relationships. They're going
to invite a toxic relationship into their life, and it's
not going to solve anything.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
I've spoken many times on the podcast about how I
was single for the better part of ten years. But
one thing I can say now that I haven't said
is that I've been in a relationship for a year
now and my happiness isn't more and it's not less,
but it's different. So my happiness level is the same.
I don't feel like I'm more complete because I've been
in a relationship. I don't feel exponentially happier, but the

(40:42):
happiness has shifted in the way that I feel it.
And that's because I think it's really important to have
all these other aspects of your life, the hobbies, the travel,
the friends, A lot of people automatically link being single
with like it's the worst time of your life and
you couldn't get lower and you're so unwanted and so onloved,
which is ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
It is hard when you live in a world of
social media and like, of course people's relationships look so
good like people. Of course, it's we know it's a
highlight reel, but equates to the highlight reel for relationships too,
And like I understand why looking in from the outside,
it can be like that's the thing I want because
I don't have it and it looks so good, But
also it is often for with a whole lot other
issues as well.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
This is just personal anecdote, but what I've noticed in
my personal life is that the couples that are always
posting the perfect pictures and everything's amazing and oh my god,
we're so happy all the time, those are the couples
that are miserable and constantly fighting and just completely toxic,
and they're usually the ones that end up getting divorced too,

(41:41):
in my experience. And it's like, when I think about
all the happiest couples that I know, they never post
like it's very rare like maybe an anniversary or a
Christmas or something, and they'll post a little bit, as
you know, a photo or two, but it's it's not
this like constant barrage of look at my life, Look
how great it is. So I think it's important for

(42:02):
people to keep perspective about that.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
I want one hundred percent agree, and I know that
probably to our listeners there's going to be some irony
in that because we have very public Instagrams, but we
also keep it very real in talking about the fact
that Instagram's the highlight and we talk about all the
rest of the shit on the podcast, do you know
what I mean.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
So it's got a balance to it.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
But I see it in people who are in my life,
who are friends, who I know the intricacies of their relationships,
I know some of the big struggles that they've been through,
and then I see the incredible loving accolade post of like, oh,
you know, my amazing husband, and I'm like, your husband's
fucking soft. Yeah, Like I see that play out, and
I think we all do in different ways. But it
is still hard to sometimes, you know, especially when you're

(42:40):
longing for it, to kind of see the forest through
the trees.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
I guessed Mark, it's a new year. What do you
think about New Year's resolutions?

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Do you think it's something that we set like unrealistic
expectations for ourselves. Do you think it's something that we
should stop doing. Do you think it's a motivation clean slake? Yeah, because,
like you know, New Year knew me, because it's fucking
never knew you.

Speaker 4 (42:58):
It's like it's to.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Say you saying you, they're not try it hard.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
But sometimes it's nice. Sometimes it's nice to think it'll
be a new yu.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, you know, you've never stuck to a news resulution.

Speaker 4 (43:08):
No, I'm alright with me. I'll stick with this. It
could be worse.

Speaker 5 (43:12):
I think it's fine. I mean, look, that was convincing. Yeah,
it's I think it's a good It's a good habit
to periodically kind of sit down and ask yourself how
would I like the change in my life and then
set goals around that. Like, I think that's just a
healthy practice. And the fact that New Year's gets so

(43:33):
many people to do that. In many cases it's probably
the only time during the year that they do that.
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I think
the problem is most people just are maybe a little
bit under educated in terms of what goals to pursue
and maybe realistic means of pursuing them, just because it's
I think that the classic the stereotype, right is everybody

(43:55):
at New Year's is like, I'm going to finally lose
that ten kilo or whatever, and you know, they joined
the gym, and by February they you know, they're back
on the couch.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
February is generous. It's like middle of jazz.

Speaker 5 (44:06):
Yeah, right. You know, I've written on my website a
few times that I think we should kind of change
the narrative away from goals to habits. Instead of like
what goals am I setting this year, it should be
like what habit am I going to adopt this year
that I don't I haven't had in the past, just
because habits are way more sustainable. You know, Goals you
get this like initial burst of excitement, you go to

(44:29):
the gym a few times, but by like the second
or third week, it becomes a chore. And so I
think that having a more realistic expectation of like Okay,
I'm not setting a goal, I'm trying to build a
habit what's the habit I'm going to build. I'm going
to start small. I'm going to like plan it into
my day, set up incentives for myself, get a friend

(44:51):
on board. You know, like if you can do all
those things, then you're actually like way, way way more
likely to succeed. And then once you have the habit,
then you actually are a new person. But it's you know,
until you actually have done the thing dozens of times,
it's just wishful. Thank you Mark.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Every week on our podcast we do ask on Cut,
where we have so many of our listeners right in
with their life questions, the things that they're facing, and
being that this is something that you are literally an
expert in and something that you deal with every day
to day in your own community, we wanted to bring
you some of our ask gun Cut questions and get
your take on what would be the right way for

(45:28):
our listeners to navigate the issues that they have in
their life.

Speaker 4 (45:31):
All right, question number one.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
I'm having a bit of a quarter hopefully maybe third
life crisis, and I think I need your advice. After
finishing school, I took a gap year and worked slash,
went on a few holidays here and there, I then
went to UNI did a Bachelor of Business. I finished
got a job essentially working in marketing. I've been there
for just over two years now. It's a decent job.
My pay is fine, I get along with most of

(45:54):
the people I work with. I don't really know why,
but I just feel like something huge is missing in
my life. Some days I feel like I want to
quit my job, kind of blow up my life, go
traveling or move somewhere different.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
But then I don't really want to throw.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Away what I've got and what I've built, because it's
a pretty good situation. I guess I'm wondering if this
is just how it is when you have a full
time job and I need to get over it, or
whether I'm just not going to be happy doing this forever.
I think everyone has felt this conundrum totally.

Speaker 5 (46:22):
Isn't this when we like look at the young people
and we're like, welcome to adult.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
I was gonna say, She's like, is this just adulthood?

Speaker 5 (46:29):
Yes, this is certainly part of it. I would just
say that I think people One thing that happens a
lot of times is when people aren't happy, they overestimate
how much needs to change to actually make them happy.
You know, so instead of just maybe I need a
job that I like a little bit more, which is
probably the case here, they think, oh I should just

(46:50):
blow everything up and move to a new country and
you know, completely start become a surf instructor. You know,
it's like whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't you don't need
the the fact step back from the edge. Yeah, you
don't serve. So let's uh, let's start start a square one.
You know, I would start here with simply, why don't
you look around at other jobs in your industry that

(47:11):
you're qualified for. Maybe it could be something as simple
as change the company you work for. It could be
something as simple as changing the culture the work culture
that you work in. It could be as simple as
like moving through a different town. You know, start small,
see if that changes anything. If it doesn't, at least
it gives you a lot more information, Like if you're
now if you're miserable at two companies, that tells you something.

(47:32):
So yeah, start simple, don't blow everything up.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
I agree, But what I will say is, you know
I fall into this. I'm thirty six, I'm not twenty.
I have just started my career. I'm thirty six, and
I'm living my dream job. You know, I'm a radio
host and I do a podcast host, so I guess
the interview people like you. And I've traveled the world.
I've been too nearly sixty countries. But I still I
don't reckoon. There's a week that goes by that I
don't want to pack up and move to another country.
I still have that pool and I'm and I'm like,

(47:57):
I'm good, like I have a like I love my life,
but I still have that.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Pull to go.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
And you know, I have a real struggle with fomo
of the world, like of the entire world. I'm like,
there are so many different cultures out there and people
and languages and experiences and I'm not living them.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
And that's constant battle I have.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
But I think the happy medium is you know, and
maybe this girl, she's young, maybe she should pack up
and go and move to downside the world for a
couple of years. But there's no reason you can't move
to London, get a visa and still work in your job.
Get a marketing job over there, but see if the
different environment helps you in some capacity, because some people
won't ever outgrow that feeling.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
But there are little things you can do.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
To get that balance.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Maybe it's a few more extra trips, a few different
you know, long weekends here or there to try and
fill that cup.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
But some people would just like never grow out of it.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, but I also think, I mean, my only input
of this is that I think that age and circumstances
are a defining factor. If you're a twenty one and
you are having these urges, you're way more inclined to
explore them and to kind of learn the lessons yourself
than if you're thirty seven, have two kids and are married,
you know. So like I think it's well you care. Yeah,
it's depending on where you are in your life. And
if those urges are profound and you want to do

(49:06):
them when you're young, then there's not going to be
any backlash of packing your life up and going fuck
it for a couple of years and doing that, whereas
the fallout would be far more significant later in life.
And I think that that's the scale. You know, if
you do, say you do have another marketing job, you
do feel the same, and you do then need to
make a decision for yourself.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
What's the fallout going to be?

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Where are you at in your life that the impact
is going to you know, hurt other people or other things.
What are the consequences and if they're minimal, then go
for it. And if they're huge, then maybe consider how
much of an asshole it would make you if you
went and did all those things, because it would impact
a lot of other people.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
I love the point one thing I wrote article years
and years ago, but one of the things I said
is I said, even your dream job sucks thirty percent.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Of the time, even your dream partner sucks thirty percent
of the time.

Speaker 5 (49:51):
Sorry, absolutely, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I mean it like the fact that the person of
your dreams, who ticks every box, who is actually incredible
and way better than anyone else you've ever dated, still
is going to irritate you and stuck sometimes. Okay, I
have a question for you. I've been with my boyfriend
now for three years. I'm twenty two, he's twenty six.
We live together for the past year. Our relationship is good,
with no huge red flags.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
He treats me well, but I am starting to find
he's becoming quite hard to motivate. What I mean by
this is that he sleeps in every day, he works
from home, so sometimes he doesn't leave the house. He
doesn't really seem enthusiastic about doing anything at all, whether
it be with me or exercise. We have been wanting
to plan a trip to Europe for a long time,
but I'm basically becoming solely responsible for the planning. I

(50:32):
don't think he's depressed, but I'm finding it a lot
of work to be the only one trying to get
us up and go and do anything. Is he becoming
really lazy? Are we just not on the same path
or do you think that there might be something deeper
going on here?

Speaker 5 (50:44):
To me, it sounds like he's a little bit depressed.
I mean, those are the sorts of behaviors that happens
when somebody I mean, clearly he's going through something. And
I think this is a perfect example of how whatever
you're going through yourself bleeds over into your relationship. I'm
going to get it's not about her or the relationship,
because if it was, they would be fighting about stuff

(51:04):
or being having it like, she wouldn't say the relationship
is good. So the fact that she says the relationship
is good, yet he doesn't want to do anything, like
even things that he said he wanted to do a
year ago. He doesn't really show much interest in doing anymore.
I mean, something's going on with him. He's clearly unhappy
in some way. And I think you know her, I
don't want to say job or role because it's not
an obligation, but like, as his partner, she should try

(51:28):
to kind of help him figure that out. He probably
doesn't fully understand what's going on with him, so you know,
I think this is a great opportunity for her to
try to help him with that.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, I agree, And I also think it's easy to
say I don't think he's depressed because your relationship's not
as in, like you're not fighting, so like I think
if you were fighting and there was like problems, you
would probably be more inclined to be like, oh, I
think he's depressed because it's having an impact on your relationship.
But because you're you're like everything else seems fine, We
are fine, But this is just a hymn problem. But

(51:58):
I think that that's how depression manifest It very much
can look like just to him problem.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
But sometimes people just aren't planners, Like some people aren't
motivated by being organized and planned.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
So yeah, but maybe there's an.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Aspect of that that is being intensified by what he's
going through inside.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, but I think it's the you know, that's one
thing I'm not a planner, like unfortunately it kind of
is always up to my partner to do all of
the organization. But I'll get out of bed in the morning,
Like it's all the factors linked together that to me
would say exactly what you said, Mark, that there's something
much deeper going on here, And rather than pointing it
as lazy, I would be saying, like, why has his
behavior changed?

Speaker 4 (52:34):
What's changed?

Speaker 5 (52:35):
People don't magically become lazy at twenty six, If anything,
they magically stop being lazy at twenty six. In my experience,
if I was to make a list of all of
the initial signs of depression, I mean, let me put
it this way. It seems like maybe she isn't clear
on what depression is. But depression is a lack of
interest in things that you used to be interested in.

(52:56):
And so I would say that them not fighting is
actually also evidence of depression, because when you're depressed, you
don't care enough to fight with your partner. Yeah, It's
like if I'm depressed and my wife's doing something that
irritates me, Like that's a lot of work to yell
at her, like, you know, I'm just gonna let I'm
just gonna like roll over and pull covers over my head.
You know. It sounds like he's going through something right now,

(53:18):
and I think young men really struggle to be aware
of what they're feeling and what they're going through. I'm
sure he's aware that he's not motivated to do stuff,
but if he's like most young men, he's probably not
aware why he's not motivated to do stuff. And I
know when I was younger, my girlfriends were always very

(53:40):
very instrumental in helping me kind of being like, hey,
what's going on, Like how are you feeling? Why don't
you want to do this? You were excited about this
a month ago, Like why don't you want to do
this now? Sometimes guys, especially young guys, like you need
the problem a little bit to get them to kind
of like, oh, yeah, yeah, I am kind of feeling
this way. Yeah that sucks. I wonder what huh?

Speaker 4 (54:01):
Mark?

Speaker 2 (54:01):
You are an absolute joy and we love having you
back on the podcast as much as we love being
up to date on your newsletters. And everything else that
you're doing. Thank you so much for your time, Thank
you for joining us.

Speaker 5 (54:12):
Thank you too. It's always a pleasure.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
You can get Mark's books literally literally anywhere in the
entire world that you can get a book the best
sellers in every country, and you can listen to your
new podcast.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
We also highly recommend going to speaking tools, but maybe
book it if it's at the end of the speaking tool,
not the start.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
Yeah, I mean for all the assis, You'll probably catch
me once I'm a little bit rehearsed and the sex
robots have been cut out of the talk.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yes, are you making your way back this way anytime soon?

Speaker 5 (54:39):
No plans at them. I'd love to though, I mean,
Australia is like, it's one of my best markets. I
love it down there, always have great events down there,
so I'm sure I'll be back one day, but no point.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
Now, Mark, Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (54:50):
Thank you. Gay Pavakaa

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Kamada Themaam Kakabaa