March 31, 2024 • 30 mins
When the gavel falls, it's not just laws echoing through the courtroom but human stories and struggles. Today's profound discussion with our distinguished guest, a legal professional with a heart for service, reveals the delicate balance judges must strike between legal frameworks and the emotional complexities of those who stand before them. We delve into the nuances of family law and paternity cases, shedding light on the importance of recognizing the person behind the lawsuit and the need for more robust support systems for veterans, through proposals like a specialized veterans court.
The journey from the cap and gown to diapers and family court can be a tumultuous one for young adults in our fast-paced world. As local attorney, Ron Moore reflects on his 27-year legal career, our conversation underscores the value of mentorship programs and the crucial role of mediation in de-escalating conflicts, offering a beacon of hope for navigating life's choppy waters. We also look ahead at the potential for positive change within Wayne County's legal system, envisioning a future where judges play an instrumental role in community well-being and conflict resolution.
As our guest shares his own aspirations for the judiciary, we're reminded that the fabric of justice is woven with threads of experience, empathy, and wisdom. From his modest beginnings to his path toward a judgeship, we explore the qualities that define a capable guardian of the law. His personal commitment to return and guide us through the life of a judge, should he achieve his goal, promises to offer listeners an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at the intersection of justice and compassion in our legal system.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Life Inscripted with Kevin Shook.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
So in paternity cases it's mother and father, it's
husband and wife.
It's the idea that we can getthings worked out because we
have at some point in our livesseen eye to eye with someone
enough to have a child Right.
Yeah, have a child together,you know, have a family together
.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I feel like you just looked right through my soul
when you said, at some point inyour life you should have a
child, right?
Because I don't have any ofthat shit.
I have a cat.
I've seen a naked cat.
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm not sure it counts as a catch life
inscripted with kevin shook onyoutube bus sprout, spotify and
apple podcast nothing thathappens in this world is not
affected by the law and we can'thave a judiciary that's not
aware of that.
It's not a situation where youcan really sit back and say okay
(00:58):
, in a cold and detachedapplication of the law, without
an understanding of humanity,without an understanding of
what's going on and trulyaffecting people, whether it's a
divorce or a paternity case, orinability to pay child support,
or inability to pay yourstudent loans or your mortgages
in default, or any number ofthings that are painful to you,
that's creating stress in yourlife that has either caused you
(01:20):
to commit a crime or just simplyput you in a position where you
know you've lost hope, despair.
Those kinds of things havereally truly impacted me,
because I know that our job as ajudiciary has to be some
consideration of thoseindividual human elements.
(01:42):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, well said, and I'm thinking.
You know Wayne County, we'renot Marion County.
Can you imagine being a judgein Marion County?
You wouldn't.
You have such a largepopulation that you.
I don't think you'd be able toeffectively do what you're doing
, to go out in the community andreally grasp the concept of
(02:05):
what's going on with some ofthese people and why are they
really in the position they'rein and what's that actually?
You know you get them from A toB but you prevent them from
going back to A.
Yeah, you don't want to seethem backtrack.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think we're a small enough community that that's
really helpful community thatthat's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, and if a judiciary can really adopt that
and be put in a position wherethey can truly help people, then
I'm all aboard.
Right, those are the kinds ofthings I think we need to have.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh, absolutely we need to have that.
No, that's good stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It's an interesting dynamic.
You know, when you brought upMarion County, it really kind of
it tells me that we have todeal with the concept of our
court systems being overwhelmed.
Oh, and you have to know, and Iwant people to know, that that
is the case here.
Right, Our judges areoverwhelmed.
(02:55):
They're very hardworking.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So basically, the bandwidth is being taken up too
much and it's really hard forthem to get out in the community
and do some of the extra to getthe no, and I think that's what
you're saying it is and theproblem solving courts that we
have are going to require a lotof extra time from these judges,
and that's why you know I'mgoing to be dedicated to it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
You know, putting in the time and going into work
every day isn't really the issue.
The issue is whether or not youhave the support staff and
support systems in order to beable to use time effectively, to
put more dedication intoproblem-solving courts like
behavioral health courts, mentalhealth courts, substance abuse
courts, veterans courts, thosekinds of things.
(03:40):
You know, judges' jobs is notto apply law any differently
than what was intended by ourlegislature, and our legislature
has given a specific set ofwhat's criminal act and what's
not.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Are there any specific support systems that
you plan on implementing forveterans, maybe to help with
their mental health, with theiraddiction, with their lack of
support by the government?
Health?
With their addiction with theirlack of support by the
government.
Yeah, I mean, I'll openly saylike they're not supported
enough after they come back fromIraq and everything.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Man.
That's incredible, you know.
Let me back up a little bit.
I want to tell you a little bitabout my history.
My grandfather was in themilitary.
Both of my parents were over20-year veterans in the military
.
I swore the oath in 1987, gothurt and got an honorable
discharge in 1988.
I served stateside.
(04:31):
I didn't have any.
I was actually in ROTC at thetime and did some training but
never went active duty.
So I'm actually what's calledan Air Force ROTC, air Force
Veteran Reservist.
And then my son, our son, mywife and I.
Our son is Nick and he's acadet at the United States Air
(04:52):
Force Academy.
So when I tell you that youknow veterans programs are
important to me, I mean it'sreally genuinely earnest in
acknowledging that we need moreservices for veterans.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Now, what I find interesting is that we don't
have a veterans court here.
We don't have a lot of veteranshere who are committing
offenses.
We do have a VA here, we dohave an active VA.
We have a lot of active membersgoing and utilizing the VA
clinic that's here up on North JStreet.
Fortunately, we've got aprosecutor system that honors
(05:33):
our veterans, but I still thinkthat if a case is presented that
has veterans issues and I canthink of a few and I don't want
to talk about them specificallybut I think we have some real
issues in certain situations andyou hit it right on the head.
When veterans come back fromforeign wars and they come back
(05:55):
into stateside, their first jobor their first objective, rather
, is their first objective isthey want to go home.
And when they want to go home,they're going to tell the people
that are interviewing them allthe right answers and they're
not going to disclose the realissues that are going on in
their life.
So when, when veterans arecoming back and they're giving
(06:18):
all the right answers, eventhough it may not be the truth,
they get integrated back intothe society without any
treatment, without any supportsystem, and when stressors
happen, those stressors createsignificant problems for law
enforcement, because these menand women were trained they're
(06:39):
trained to kill In the militaryRight absolutely so they're
trained in ways to really be aproblem for our law enforcement
community.
So our objectives really areshould be to provide services
for them immediately.
And you know, it's nice to havea veterans court in Delaware
County that's Muncie but wedon't have one here and our
(07:03):
community is, you know, just asmuch veterans as anywhere else
and I think that we need to havethat availability for us to to
have a veterans court, just tosimply have it.
And I I I don't know thatnecessarily we're going to
receive a lot of pushback fromfrom the prosecutor's office or
anything like that.
(07:23):
But you know, if a judge has anopportunity to analyze a case,
again from the individual'sfacts, from the law that's
applied and knowing that theirindividual character of the
person who's involved in a case,whether it's a divorce or
whether it's a you know, a casethat needs a protective order,
or whether it's a paternity case, or their parenting style or
(07:46):
those kinds of things, if weknow they're a veteran, then I
think we should honor them andgive them the ability to be
better.
And again, I think those kindsof things are going to put us in
a position where our communityis tighter, our community is
stronger, our ability to have agreat quite know, quite honestly
, a better, tighter community isgoing to make us all safer.
(08:09):
It's going to make ourcommunity safer.
It's going to preserve familyvalues.
It's going to put us in aposition where we can uphold,
you know, uphold the rule of lawin a way that really makes us
all a better community.
You know, I hear people talkabout the great days of Richmond
.
Now, you know, my gosh, I, II've lived here for 27 years and
(08:29):
I still I wouldn't stay.
I wouldn't have stayed here ifI didn't love it.
To be quite honest, with you.
And I think Richmond is a great,great place, I think Wayne
County is a great place.
We have some real gems here andI, I tell you when I, when I
say that I love it here, Ireally truly mean it.
I tell you when I say that Ilove it here, I really truly
mean it.
And we have an opportunity tomake it even better.
Oh, absolutely.
(08:50):
And those things arerecognizing and honoring our
veterans, honoring our policeforce, honoring our firefighters
, honoring the people who makeus safer, and we have a lot of
those folks who still arehurting and again being
intimately tied to the affairsof people.
That's where you learn aboutthem, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, putting them first versus anything else,
because I know, you know, a lotof them coming back from war or
just serving and like, well, Ididn't even serve and I got
popped with PTSD and everythingelse.
So you get popped with allthese labels and stuff and it
makes things 10 times harder.
Sometimes, um, especially, Iimagine, um, I mean I've never
(09:35):
been locked up, but I imagine,um, you know, just taking that
person and not really knowingtheir whole story and
understanding the lack ofservices that they sought after
or that were offered to them,and blocking them up, man, that
would that just makes it worse.
That's like maybe thecommunity's safer but it's worse
(09:59):
on them.
So it's kind of like you know,there is a spot, there's a,
there's an area there, a greatarea, where you want to
rehabilitate at the same time.
So I, being a judge, it justyeah, kudos, that would be
really hard yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Um, it's taking all of the things that we know about
people and applying them sothat, so that there's a fair
opportunity to, to to reallymake a difference you know
Absolutely Um.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So another question um cultural change and courtroom
dynamics.
Uh, you talked about a winnertakes all mentality in
courtrooms.
Yeah, Um, how did you plan tofoster a culture of unity and
cooperation, especially infamily law?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Well, let me kind of couch that in a more broad
statement perspective.
Yeah, a little bit more of abroad perspective.
I got a phone call today abouttenants and how tenants get
along well with one anothertenants and how tenants get
(11:11):
along well with one another, andthe discussion that I had with
this individual was, quitehonestly, hostile.
Right, it was hostile.
If our job as an attorney is tohelp make people better, at the
end of it, the first thing wehave to do is ratchet down
tensions, ratchet down behaviors, calm people down so that we
can sit at the same table andtalk it out.
(11:33):
And, as an attorney, if ourobjectives are to make our
community safer and stronger andall the things I was talking
about preserving family valuesand upholding rules of law and
ultimately in rules of law andultimately in family law
situations boy it sure would benice if lawyers and judges
didn't have to get involved atall.
Right, absolutely as honest, assimple as that is to say yeah,
(11:58):
as simple as that is to say, wewant to be able to give people
tools to make their lives betterthemselves, so they don't end
up in a litigious situationbecause, quite honestly, in in
the courtroom, um, you've got ajudge or a jury making decisions
about facts that can impacttheir lives.
(12:22):
Who better to make decisionsabout your life than you, right?
So if we can empower them, putthem in positions whether it's
through mediation or alternativedispute resolution, or putting
them with a guardian ad litemthat they trust and like, or
having ombudsmen or communityleaders get together to enable
(12:45):
them to how to talk to oneanother, how to communicate with
one another, how to be a goodparent, if objectives are met in
that fashion, then, my gosh, Ithink we're going to be a better
off society because ourcourtrooms are going to be less
packed.
The interesting thing aboutthat process is that about, I
want to say, in 1997 or so,judge Horn was instrumental in
(13:08):
redrafting our family law rules,our local family law rules.
Some of the things that we dois, for example, in Marion
County other counties throughoutIndiana a husband and wife in a
litigation case are calledpetitioner and respondent.
Whoever files first is thepetitioner and whoever second
doesn't file is the respondent.
(13:29):
Well, in Wayne County our rulessay a person who files first
doesn't matter and it's thefather and the mother if they
have children right, or fatherand and, uh, you know, you have
litigants who are actuallylabeled by what they are and it
(13:49):
doesn't make someone apetitioner and a respondent
because it's so callous.
It doesn't foster the ideas ofresolving cases amicably.
So in paternity cases, it'smother and father, it's husband
and wife, it's the idea that wecan get things worked out
(14:11):
because we have at some point inour lives, seen eye to eye with
someone enough to Be moreconnected.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Have a child Right yeah, they.
Have a child Right yeah theyhave a child together.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
You know they have a family together.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I feel like you just looked right through my soul
when you said at some point inyour life you should have a
child, Right?
Because I don't have any ofthat shit.
I have a cat.
I've seen you A naked cat.
I'm not sure it counts as a cat.
Right, it acts like a dog.
I walked it the other day on aleash.
I saw that it's pretty cool.
But yeah, yeah, be morepersonable.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah.
So when Judge Horne rewrotethose rules again, I was part of
that committee and that processthat's still in place today is
absolutely foreign to attorneysfrom other counties.
They'll file stuff and it sayspetitioner and respondent and
the judges go no, no, no, we arehusband and wife, we are mother
(15:02):
and father.
And that's how the case has tobe recaptured, so that people
can start with the understandingthat they have to respect one
another as parents and as formerhusband and wife, so that they
can look towards an amicableresolution, not for themselves
but for their children.
And in family law cases we'veseen a development in the law
(15:35):
and in the courtroom wherelitigants had this
winner-take-all mentality.
It's an imperiousness, it's a,it's a callous behavior, it's
arrogance, it's young people notunderstanding that they have
brought a person into the worldthat needs both people both
sides, yeah, and you have toco-parent.
(15:55):
Yeah, exactly, or else we end upwith a chaotic society.
Right, I mean we have to have.
And when I say I believe inmentorship and young people and
needing people to lead them, Imean it.
I mean I've put my money wheremy mouth is.
I go out there and I've spent alot of time.
I spent 15 years maybe notquite that long 12 years with
(16:20):
Boy Scouts.
I spent many years with BigBrothers, big Sisters, because
we need young people to knowwhat it's like to have a good
influence.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, that kind of ties into one of our last
episodes.
That kind of ties into one ofour last episodes.
We talked about society'spressures on young people to
develop so fastly, to getmarried so quick, to have
children so fast.
And what happens is, well,they're urged to go to college
right after high school.
So, college, marriage, kid,before they're 25.
(16:56):
And it's kind of like, well,well, that's what mom and dad
told us to do, right, so theyend up going to college for the
wrong thing, working at a jobthat didn't need that degree,
having all that debt, and thengetting married to the wrong
person because they were in ahurry to get married, and then
having a kid with the wrongperson.
And now they're in thecourtroom, yeah, and you're, and
, and now it's you're kind, well, all right, let's sort this out
(17:21):
Exactly Because, you know, withthat whole scenario I just laid
out, you got financial stress,and then you got.
Now you're getting a divorce,and so there's so many things
compiled.
And it's not only that, but now.
But now, dad, if it's a winner,take all we want to, take all
(17:42):
dad's pension, something likethat.
Well, guess what?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
dad might go batshit crazy, yeah, and now we got a
whole different crime that'sgoing to be committed yeah, it's
the stressors, because begin toadd up and it's all started
with all of those things youwere talking yeah, yeah, so I
could see where the wholewinners take all, or that could
just lead to disaster.
Yeah, that mentality has beenmore prevalent in society in
(18:05):
general.
But you know, I see it in thecourtroom primarily, but I see
it in my office.
You know, when folks come inand they're like no, I'm rolling
the dice on this one, we'regoing to the box, we're taking
this case.
We're going to the box, we'retaking this case all the way,
we're going to make the judgemake the decision.
And my caution stems from awisdom that those kinds of
(18:27):
mentalities don't always workbest for either the children or
for themselves, or for whateverthe case might be.
We have to foster relationshipsand those relationships are on
both sides of the courtroom andI think that you know, for the
last 27 years I've beenrepresenting one person.
(18:48):
You know one side of thecourtroom and I've done a really
good job with that and I'vegained a lot of respect from my
peers and from the judges andit's put me in a position now
where I feel like I can helpboth sides of the courtroom.
So helping one side to come toterms with that concept of
mediation and middle ground hasbeen very effective for me and
(19:10):
I've really enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed helping peopleBecause, again, my mentality is
that our job isn't to navigatethem through the maze of a legal
case, but rather to help thembe better at the end of it.
I firmly believe that, and Iwill always believe that, and so
for that lengthy period of timethat I've been practicing law,
it's been a very interestingprocess, but now I think I can
(19:33):
help more people by being behindthe bench, and that's where
your experience, my experience,puts me in a position where I
know that I'm the right personfor the job.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
That's cool, man.
I couldn't agree more witheverything you've told me.
Last few questions you prettymuch hit already, so I'm going
to leave you with.
What does the future look likefor Wayne County's legal system
If you were the judge and youhad all the decision making to
(20:08):
do?
If you were the judge and youhad all the decision making to
do, so what would what with yourrole, that you would take, how
would you contribute to it andwhat is your vision?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Wow, yeah, that's a really big question.
I really appreciate it.
You know, my my take on thepractice of law is that it's a
noble profession and that wehave a responsibility to be fair
, to give everyone a voice, tomake sure that everyone is heard
and to enable them to help makedecisions jointly and
(20:38):
collectively.
Sometimes decisions have to bemade and you got to be a strong,
conservative person who canmake decisions if they can't.
And so where do I see myself?
I see myself continuing thelegacy of the prior judges that
we've had, who've been suchgreat persons to me and mentors
to me Maybe not directly as amentor, but at least you know
(21:02):
being in their courtrooms.
It's been baptism by fire for me.
You know it's a.
You go in there and you'rethere every day in the courtroom
as a litigator and you see howa courtroom works.
All of the court case typesthat I've been practicing for
the last, you know, two decadesor more have been the types of
cases that happen in superiorcourt one.
And when you know you have thatkind of relationship with the
(21:26):
current judges who are there andthe other attorneys that are in
that courtroom.
That baptism by fire has taughtme how to be the guy who can be
behind the bench right, and thelegacy that we have from our
judges has been phenomenal.
We've had an amazing bench,whether it's Judge Ranke or
Judge Van Middlesworth, judgeColger, judge Tom Snow.
(21:47):
You know, judge Horn, judge VanMiddlesworth, judge Kolger,
judge Tom Snow, judge Horn,judge Dallahaney these judges
have all put us in a positionwhere, you know, put me in a
position where I can truly seemyself behind the bench Exactly
so.
But what I, what people need tounderstand, is that, with Judge
Kolger leaving and we have theHonorable Judge Drake as the
(22:07):
judge in circuit court, withJudge Colger leaving and we have
the Honorable Judge Drake asthe judge in circuit court, we
have Judge Horn, who is talkingabout retirement in a couple
years.
We have Superior Court Ibecoming vacant and hopefully
that's the position that theelectorate puts me in.
And then we have Judge Cox,who's taking over Judge
Dolehaney's position In atwo-year period of time.
(22:27):
Our judiciary would probablyhave about just a few years of
experience.
All new judges in all fourcourts, and that is something
that you know.
I see, yeah, it's such a dynamicthat this election is important
(22:50):
for people to get it right,because we've got to put someone
in that position who is capable, who has worked in the areas of
this particular courtroom, whohas a lot of appellate
experience, like I do, right?
So you write opinions, you doresearch, you've done a lot of
work.
That's me right.
I'm the guy that's done a lotof that compared to my opponents
(23:12):
.
And when you are looking at arotation of the judiciary in
such a short period of time, youhave to make sure that you put
someone in those positions whoare capable.
Our governors made two gooddecisions about Judge Drake and
Judge Cox.
Now the electorate gets to makea decision about what happens
in Superior 1.
And so how do I see ourjudiciary looking over the next
(23:36):
few years?
It's going to be very strong,because I have confidence that
the electorate's going to electme.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
That's awesome.
That is great.
So when you are the judge, Iwant to do a spinoff of Night
Court, the television show.
I love that show.
That's like one of my favorite.
It's like on Prime no, notPrime Peacock, yeah, On
streaming Peacock every Tuesdayor something.
(24:05):
I love that show.
I'm not sure who wants to bepolled.
I don't know if we could doquite the spinoff of that, but
you got to get me in theresomehow.
I know we can't video cases,but I think it'd be cool to do a
follow-up episode after you getelected in the courtroom.
That would be crazy.
(24:26):
A lot of fun.
Oh yeah, just like today, yeah,so, um, when are we voting?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, the um.
You can register to vote allthe way up until April 7th, I
think as a Saturday, so maybeApril 6th, so you can register
all the way up until April 6th.
April 9th starts early votingand the early voting is at
certain locations, I think thecourthouse and then maybe on
weekends at like, the GolayCenter, first English Lutheran
Church.
(24:55):
There are certain locations inWayne County where you can vote
early and then all the votingcenters get opened up on May 7th
for the last day.
So early voting starts on April9th, last day of voting, may
7th.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Okay, and who are we voting for?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
We're voting for Ron Moore for judge of Wayne spirit
Number one not the Supreme court.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I'll leave that at the pizza place.
Yeah, that's right Superiorsuperior court.
I'll write it on my hand beforeI go in the vote.
There's not a Supreme on thisticket.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, I'm a Republican candidate, so you
have to pull the Republicanticket in order to vote.
You know all of the all of theRepublican.
Let me put it this way theRepublican ballot is very filled
this year, from thepresidential election to our
congressional congressionalcandidates, to to our judges
(25:47):
position.
There's some other down-ticketelections that are really
important too, but there'scertainly, like I said, a really
important reason why ourelectorate needs to get out and
vote this year Absolutely, andthat's because, quite honestly,
if you really think about itright, a judge's position has
probably more impact on ourcommunity than what people
(26:11):
really recognize.
It's incredibly important.
This is the first year the firsttime, I'm sorry, this is the
first time we've had a contestedjudicial election in 22 years.
So, the last contested judicialelection.
Now we've had some changes ofjudges.
Right, we've had changes ofjudges, but they've all been
gubernatorial appointments.
The governor has come out andsaid, okay, this is the person
(26:31):
we're going to have.
That takes it out of theelectorate's hands.
So the last time we've had acontested election has been 2002
between Judge Dolehany andJudge Holsher, and what we know
is Judge Dolehany won, created agreat legacy in Superior Court
III, created family court.
He's created a great legacy inSuperior Court.
Iii created family court.
He's created some really greatjuvenile court initiatives.
(26:54):
Those kinds of things don'tcome into play until the
electorate gets involved,because when the governor comes
out and appoints people, ittakes it out of the electorate's
hands, right.
So it's really important that wehave an active, active
electorate this year, because ajudicial position is truly
(27:15):
important.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Very cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
Is there anything?
We'll wrap it up.
Is there anything you want toleave us with at all?
I mean, we've covered a lot ofstuff.
I might.
We might actually have two orthree episodes out of this,
which would be really cool.
But if there's anything youwant to leave us with, Hopefully
you'll edit out a lot of thebad stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I'm stumbling over my words.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
No, that's all me.
I'm the one that can't talk.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Here's what I'd really like to leave you with.
To be quite honest with you, Icome from pretty humble
beginnings.
You know I'm not a I'm not thekind of guy where it's lost on
me that people have needs andpeople have.
People come into the legalsystem in pain, you know, and I
(28:07):
I just it's really important forpeople to know that I'm an
average person as far as likeunderstanding where people come
from.
I'm not average when it comesto intellect.
I'm not average when it comesto ability.
I'm not average when it comesto desire to be in a courtroom.
You know, I've wanted to be in acourtroom my entire life.
Uh, as far as you know, being alawyer, I wanted to be in a
(28:28):
courtroom from the day that Igraduated all the way till today
, and I still want to be in acourtroom.
I just want to be behind thebench and I know that that's my
calling.
It's a noble calling and I lovethe practice of law.
It is a noble profession wherewe can help people and I know
that behind the bench I can helpmore people.
It's really important peopleand I know that behind the bench
(28:49):
, I can help more people.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's really important and that's good, because from
my personal experience with youand I've told people I talked
I'm very vulnerable.
I like I've learned this wholepower of vulnerability thing and
throughout all my fuck-ups inlife and everything else, and
then sobriety and whatnot but wecan sit down at the country
club and shoot the shit withpeople.
(29:11):
We can also sit down at anylittle tavern, you know, and we
love all of these people equallyand we see all of them as human
.
I love, we understand.
You know what I mean, like, andthat's that's the thing, um is
that you're very empatheticeticand like we've talked about all
(29:31):
evening, it's about that humanbeing and what they need.
So that's what's really cool,man.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, I tell you it's .
You know, no one wants to talkabout their worst five moments
in their life.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And yet in the judicial system, in the legal
system, that's what we deal with, and you know, good people find
themselves in situations thatare not the best situation, but
that's where someone who hasempathy, compassion and talent
and ability has to all mergetogether.
It has to in order for there tobe an effective judge who
(30:07):
really can call those balls andstrikes in a way that really is
meaningful for them.
That's what we need absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, well, man, I appreciate you coming up here
hanging out so thank you for thetime.
I really appreciate theopportunity and I'm gonna hold
you to it.
You get elected and we have todo something in the courtroom.
You got some type of video.
I think it'd be cool, just afollow-up.
You can talk, I'll follow youfor a day or something like that
.
We'll see how that goes.
Yeah, I'm following youeverywhere.
(30:38):
I don't want to know everything, but that'd be fun.
So got it all right.
Thanks, that's it, man.
Appreciate you.
Life inscripted with kevinshook.
Life Inscripted with Kevin Shook.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
So in paternity cases it's mother and father, it's
husband and wife.
It's the idea that we can getthings worked out because we
have at some point in our livesseen eye to eye with someone
enough to have a child Right.
Yeah, have a child together,you know, have a family together
.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I feel like you just looked right through my soul
when you said, at some point inyour life you should have a
child, right?
Because I don't have any ofthat shit.
I have a cat.
I've seen a naked cat.
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm not sure it counts as a catch life
inscripted with kevin shook onyoutube bus sprout, spotify and
apple podcast nothing thathappens in this world is not
affected by the law and we can'thave a judiciary that's not
aware of that.
It's not a situation where youcan really sit back and say okay
(00:58):
, in a cold and detachedapplication of the law, without
an understanding of humanity,without an understanding of
what's going on and trulyaffecting people, whether it's a
divorce or a paternity case, orinability to pay child support,
or inability to pay yourstudent loans or your mortgages
in default, or any number ofthings that are painful to you,
that's creating stress in yourlife that has either caused you
(01:20):
to commit a crime or just simplyput you in a position where you
know you've lost hope, despair.
Those kinds of things havereally truly impacted me,
because I know that our job as ajudiciary has to be some
consideration of thoseindividual human elements.
(01:42):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, well said, and I'm thinking.
You know Wayne County, we'renot Marion County.
Can you imagine being a judgein Marion County?
You wouldn't.
You have such a largepopulation that you.
I don't think you'd be able toeffectively do what you're doing
, to go out in the community andreally grasp the concept of
(02:05):
what's going on with some ofthese people and why are they
really in the position they'rein and what's that actually?
You know you get them from A toB but you prevent them from
going back to A.
Yeah, you don't want to seethem backtrack.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think we're a small enough community that that's
really helpful community thatthat's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, and if a judiciary can really adopt that
and be put in a position wherethey can truly help people, then
I'm all aboard.
Right, those are the kinds ofthings I think we need to have.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh, absolutely we need to have that.
No, that's good stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It's an interesting dynamic.
You know, when you brought upMarion County, it really kind of
it tells me that we have todeal with the concept of our
court systems being overwhelmed.
Oh, and you have to know, and Iwant people to know, that that
is the case here.
Right, Our judges areoverwhelmed.
(02:55):
They're very hardworking.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So basically, the bandwidth is being taken up too
much and it's really hard forthem to get out in the community
and do some of the extra to getthe no, and I think that's what
you're saying it is and theproblem solving courts that we
have are going to require a lotof extra time from these judges,
and that's why you know I'mgoing to be dedicated to it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
You know, putting in the time and going into work
every day isn't really the issue.
The issue is whether or not youhave the support staff and
support systems in order to beable to use time effectively, to
put more dedication intoproblem-solving courts like
behavioral health courts, mentalhealth courts, substance abuse
courts, veterans courts, thosekinds of things.
(03:40):
You know, judges' jobs is notto apply law any differently
than what was intended by ourlegislature, and our legislature
has given a specific set ofwhat's criminal act and what's
not.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Are there any specific support systems that
you plan on implementing forveterans, maybe to help with
their mental health, with theiraddiction, with their lack of
support by the government?
Health?
With their addiction with theirlack of support by the
government.
Yeah, I mean, I'll openly saylike they're not supported
enough after they come back fromIraq and everything.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Man.
That's incredible, you know.
Let me back up a little bit.
I want to tell you a little bitabout my history.
My grandfather was in themilitary.
Both of my parents were over20-year veterans in the military
.
I swore the oath in 1987, gothurt and got an honorable
discharge in 1988.
I served stateside.
(04:31):
I didn't have any.
I was actually in ROTC at thetime and did some training but
never went active duty.
So I'm actually what's calledan Air Force ROTC, air Force
Veteran Reservist.
And then my son, our son, mywife and I.
Our son is Nick and he's acadet at the United States Air
(04:52):
Force Academy.
So when I tell you that youknow veterans programs are
important to me, I mean it'sreally genuinely earnest in
acknowledging that we need moreservices for veterans.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Now, what I find interesting is that we don't
have a veterans court here.
We don't have a lot of veteranshere who are committing
offenses.
We do have a VA here, we dohave an active VA.
We have a lot of active membersgoing and utilizing the VA
clinic that's here up on North JStreet.
Fortunately, we've got aprosecutor system that honors
(05:33):
our veterans, but I still thinkthat if a case is presented that
has veterans issues and I canthink of a few and I don't want
to talk about them specificallybut I think we have some real
issues in certain situations andyou hit it right on the head.
When veterans come back fromforeign wars and they come back
(05:55):
into stateside, their first jobor their first objective, rather
, is their first objective isthey want to go home.
And when they want to go home,they're going to tell the people
that are interviewing them allthe right answers and they're
not going to disclose the realissues that are going on in
their life.
So when, when veterans arecoming back and they're giving
(06:18):
all the right answers, eventhough it may not be the truth,
they get integrated back intothe society without any
treatment, without any supportsystem, and when stressors
happen, those stressors createsignificant problems for law
enforcement, because these menand women were trained they're
(06:39):
trained to kill In the militaryRight absolutely so they're
trained in ways to really be aproblem for our law enforcement
community.
So our objectives really areshould be to provide services
for them immediately.
And you know, it's nice to havea veterans court in Delaware
County that's Muncie but wedon't have one here and our
(07:03):
community is, you know, just asmuch veterans as anywhere else
and I think that we need to havethat availability for us to to
have a veterans court, just tosimply have it.
And I I I don't know thatnecessarily we're going to
receive a lot of pushback fromfrom the prosecutor's office or
anything like that.
(07:23):
But you know, if a judge has anopportunity to analyze a case,
again from the individual'sfacts, from the law that's
applied and knowing that theirindividual character of the
person who's involved in a case,whether it's a divorce or
whether it's a you know, a casethat needs a protective order,
or whether it's a paternity case, or their parenting style or
(07:46):
those kinds of things, if weknow they're a veteran, then I
think we should honor them andgive them the ability to be
better.
And again, I think those kindsof things are going to put us in
a position where our communityis tighter, our community is
stronger, our ability to have agreat quite know, quite honestly
, a better, tighter community isgoing to make us all safer.
(08:09):
It's going to make ourcommunity safer.
It's going to preserve familyvalues.
It's going to put us in aposition where we can uphold,
you know, uphold the rule of lawin a way that really makes us
all a better community.
You know, I hear people talkabout the great days of Richmond
.
Now, you know, my gosh, I, II've lived here for 27 years and
(08:29):
I still I wouldn't stay.
I wouldn't have stayed here ifI didn't love it.
To be quite honest, with you.
And I think Richmond is a great,great place, I think Wayne
County is a great place.
We have some real gems here andI, I tell you when I, when I
say that I love it here, Ireally truly mean it.
I tell you when I say that Ilove it here, I really truly
mean it.
And we have an opportunity tomake it even better.
Oh, absolutely.
(08:50):
And those things arerecognizing and honoring our
veterans, honoring our policeforce, honoring our firefighters
, honoring the people who makeus safer, and we have a lot of
those folks who still arehurting and again being
intimately tied to the affairsof people.
That's where you learn aboutthem, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, putting them first versus anything else,
because I know, you know, a lotof them coming back from war or
just serving and like, well, Ididn't even serve and I got
popped with PTSD and everythingelse.
So you get popped with allthese labels and stuff and it
makes things 10 times harder.
Sometimes, um, especially, Iimagine, um, I mean I've never
(09:35):
been locked up, but I imagine,um, you know, just taking that
person and not really knowingtheir whole story and
understanding the lack ofservices that they sought after
or that were offered to them,and blocking them up, man, that
would that just makes it worse.
That's like maybe thecommunity's safer but it's worse
(09:59):
on them.
So it's kind of like you know,there is a spot, there's a,
there's an area there, a greatarea, where you want to
rehabilitate at the same time.
So I, being a judge, it justyeah, kudos, that would be
really hard yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Um, it's taking all of the things that we know about
people and applying them sothat, so that there's a fair
opportunity to, to to reallymake a difference you know
Absolutely Um.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So another question um cultural change and courtroom
dynamics.
Uh, you talked about a winnertakes all mentality in
courtrooms.
Yeah, Um, how did you plan tofoster a culture of unity and
cooperation, especially infamily law?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Well, let me kind of couch that in a more broad
statement perspective.
Yeah, a little bit more of abroad perspective.
I got a phone call today abouttenants and how tenants get
along well with one anothertenants and how tenants get
(11:11):
along well with one another, andthe discussion that I had with
this individual was, quitehonestly, hostile.
Right, it was hostile.
If our job as an attorney is tohelp make people better, at the
end of it, the first thing wehave to do is ratchet down
tensions, ratchet down behaviors, calm people down so that we
can sit at the same table andtalk it out.
(11:33):
And, as an attorney, if ourobjectives are to make our
community safer and stronger andall the things I was talking
about preserving family valuesand upholding rules of law and
ultimately in rules of law andultimately in family law
situations boy it sure would benice if lawyers and judges
didn't have to get involved atall.
Right, absolutely as honest, assimple as that is to say yeah,
(11:58):
as simple as that is to say, wewant to be able to give people
tools to make their lives betterthemselves, so they don't end
up in a litigious situationbecause, quite honestly, in in
the courtroom, um, you've got ajudge or a jury making decisions
about facts that can impacttheir lives.
(12:22):
Who better to make decisionsabout your life than you, right?
So if we can empower them, putthem in positions whether it's
through mediation or alternativedispute resolution, or putting
them with a guardian ad litemthat they trust and like, or
having ombudsmen or communityleaders get together to enable
(12:45):
them to how to talk to oneanother, how to communicate with
one another, how to be a goodparent, if objectives are met in
that fashion, then, my gosh, Ithink we're going to be a better
off society because ourcourtrooms are going to be less
packed.
The interesting thing aboutthat process is that about, I
want to say, in 1997 or so,judge Horn was instrumental in
(13:08):
redrafting our family law rules,our local family law rules.
Some of the things that we dois, for example, in Marion
County other counties throughoutIndiana a husband and wife in a
litigation case are calledpetitioner and respondent.
Whoever files first is thepetitioner and whoever second
doesn't file is the respondent.
(13:29):
Well, in Wayne County our rulessay a person who files first
doesn't matter and it's thefather and the mother if they
have children right, or fatherand and, uh, you know, you have
litigants who are actuallylabeled by what they are and it
(13:49):
doesn't make someone apetitioner and a respondent
because it's so callous.
It doesn't foster the ideas ofresolving cases amicably.
So in paternity cases, it'smother and father, it's husband
and wife, it's the idea that wecan get things worked out
(14:11):
because we have at some point inour lives, seen eye to eye with
someone enough to Be moreconnected.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Have a child Right yeah, they.
Have a child Right yeah theyhave a child together.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
You know they have a family together.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I feel like you just looked right through my soul
when you said at some point inyour life you should have a
child, Right?
Because I don't have any ofthat shit.
I have a cat.
I've seen you A naked cat.
I'm not sure it counts as a cat.
Right, it acts like a dog.
I walked it the other day on aleash.
I saw that it's pretty cool.
But yeah, yeah, be morepersonable.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah.
So when Judge Horne rewrotethose rules again, I was part of
that committee and that processthat's still in place today is
absolutely foreign to attorneysfrom other counties.
They'll file stuff and it sayspetitioner and respondent and
the judges go no, no, no, we arehusband and wife, we are mother
(15:02):
and father.
And that's how the case has tobe recaptured, so that people
can start with the understandingthat they have to respect one
another as parents and as formerhusband and wife, so that they
can look towards an amicableresolution, not for themselves
but for their children.
And in family law cases we'veseen a development in the law
(15:35):
and in the courtroom wherelitigants had this
winner-take-all mentality.
It's an imperiousness, it's a,it's a callous behavior, it's
arrogance, it's young people notunderstanding that they have
brought a person into the worldthat needs both people both
sides, yeah, and you have toco-parent.
(15:55):
Yeah, exactly, or else we end upwith a chaotic society.
Right, I mean we have to have.
And when I say I believe inmentorship and young people and
needing people to lead them, Imean it.
I mean I've put my money wheremy mouth is.
I go out there and I've spent alot of time.
I spent 15 years maybe notquite that long 12 years with
(16:20):
Boy Scouts.
I spent many years with BigBrothers, big Sisters, because
we need young people to knowwhat it's like to have a good
influence.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, that kind of ties into one of our last
episodes.
That kind of ties into one ofour last episodes.
We talked about society'spressures on young people to
develop so fastly, to getmarried so quick, to have
children so fast.
And what happens is, well,they're urged to go to college
right after high school.
So, college, marriage, kid,before they're 25.
(16:56):
And it's kind of like, well,well, that's what mom and dad
told us to do, right, so theyend up going to college for the
wrong thing, working at a jobthat didn't need that degree,
having all that debt, and thengetting married to the wrong
person because they were in ahurry to get married, and then
having a kid with the wrongperson.
And now they're in thecourtroom, yeah, and you're, and
, and now it's you're kind, well, all right, let's sort this out
(17:21):
Exactly Because, you know, withthat whole scenario I just laid
out, you got financial stress,and then you got.
Now you're getting a divorce,and so there's so many things
compiled.
And it's not only that, but now.
But now, dad, if it's a winner,take all we want to, take all
(17:42):
dad's pension, something likethat.
Well, guess what?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
dad might go batshit crazy, yeah, and now we got a
whole different crime that'sgoing to be committed yeah, it's
the stressors, because begin toadd up and it's all started
with all of those things youwere talking yeah, yeah, so I
could see where the wholewinners take all, or that could
just lead to disaster.
Yeah, that mentality has beenmore prevalent in society in
(18:05):
general.
But you know, I see it in thecourtroom primarily, but I see
it in my office.
You know, when folks come inand they're like no, I'm rolling
the dice on this one, we'regoing to the box, we're taking
this case.
We're going to the box, we'retaking this case all the way,
we're going to make the judgemake the decision.
And my caution stems from awisdom that those kinds of
(18:27):
mentalities don't always workbest for either the children or
for themselves, or for whateverthe case might be.
We have to foster relationshipsand those relationships are on
both sides of the courtroom andI think that you know, for the
last 27 years I've beenrepresenting one person.
(18:48):
You know one side of thecourtroom and I've done a really
good job with that and I'vegained a lot of respect from my
peers and from the judges andit's put me in a position now
where I feel like I can helpboth sides of the courtroom.
So helping one side to come toterms with that concept of
mediation and middle ground hasbeen very effective for me and
(19:10):
I've really enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed helping peopleBecause, again, my mentality is
that our job isn't to navigatethem through the maze of a legal
case, but rather to help thembe better at the end of it.
I firmly believe that, and Iwill always believe that, and so
for that lengthy period of timethat I've been practicing law,
it's been a very interestingprocess, but now I think I can
(19:33):
help more people by being behindthe bench, and that's where
your experience, my experience,puts me in a position where I
know that I'm the right personfor the job.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
That's cool, man.
I couldn't agree more witheverything you've told me.
Last few questions you prettymuch hit already, so I'm going
to leave you with.
What does the future look likefor Wayne County's legal system
If you were the judge and youhad all the decision making to
(20:08):
do?
If you were the judge and youhad all the decision making to
do, so what would what with yourrole, that you would take, how
would you contribute to it andwhat is your vision?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Wow, yeah, that's a really big question.
I really appreciate it.
You know, my my take on thepractice of law is that it's a
noble profession and that wehave a responsibility to be fair
, to give everyone a voice, tomake sure that everyone is heard
and to enable them to help makedecisions jointly and
(20:38):
collectively.
Sometimes decisions have to bemade and you got to be a strong,
conservative person who canmake decisions if they can't.
And so where do I see myself?
I see myself continuing thelegacy of the prior judges that
we've had, who've been suchgreat persons to me and mentors
to me Maybe not directly as amentor, but at least you know
(21:02):
being in their courtrooms.
It's been baptism by fire for me.
You know it's a.
You go in there and you'rethere every day in the courtroom
as a litigator and you see howa courtroom works.
All of the court case typesthat I've been practicing for
the last, you know, two decadesor more have been the types of
cases that happen in superiorcourt one.
And when you know you have thatkind of relationship with the
(21:26):
current judges who are there andthe other attorneys that are in
that courtroom.
That baptism by fire has taughtme how to be the guy who can be
behind the bench right, and thelegacy that we have from our
judges has been phenomenal.
We've had an amazing bench,whether it's Judge Ranke or
Judge Van Middlesworth, judgeColger, judge Tom Snow.
(21:47):
You know, judge Horn, judge VanMiddlesworth, judge Kolger,
judge Tom Snow, judge Horn,judge Dallahaney these judges
have all put us in a positionwhere, you know, put me in a
position where I can truly seemyself behind the bench Exactly
so.
But what I, what people need tounderstand, is that, with Judge
Kolger leaving and we have theHonorable Judge Drake as the
(22:07):
judge in circuit court, withJudge Colger leaving and we have
the Honorable Judge Drake asthe judge in circuit court, we
have Judge Horn, who is talkingabout retirement in a couple
years.
We have Superior Court Ibecoming vacant and hopefully
that's the position that theelectorate puts me in.
And then we have Judge Cox,who's taking over Judge
Dolehaney's position In atwo-year period of time.
(22:27):
Our judiciary would probablyhave about just a few years of
experience.
All new judges in all fourcourts, and that is something
that you know.
I see, yeah, it's such a dynamicthat this election is important
(22:50):
for people to get it right,because we've got to put someone
in that position who is capable, who has worked in the areas of
this particular courtroom, whohas a lot of appellate
experience, like I do, right?
So you write opinions, you doresearch, you've done a lot of
work.
That's me right.
I'm the guy that's done a lotof that compared to my opponents
(23:12):
.
And when you are looking at arotation of the judiciary in
such a short period of time, youhave to make sure that you put
someone in those positions whoare capable.
Our governors made two gooddecisions about Judge Drake and
Judge Cox.
Now the electorate gets to makea decision about what happens
in Superior 1.
And so how do I see ourjudiciary looking over the next
(23:36):
few years?
It's going to be very strong,because I have confidence that
the electorate's going to electme.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
That's awesome.
That is great.
So when you are the judge, Iwant to do a spinoff of Night
Court, the television show.
I love that show.
That's like one of my favorite.
It's like on Prime no, notPrime Peacock, yeah, On
streaming Peacock every Tuesdayor something.
(24:05):
I love that show.
I'm not sure who wants to bepolled.
I don't know if we could doquite the spinoff of that, but
you got to get me in theresomehow.
I know we can't video cases,but I think it'd be cool to do a
follow-up episode after you getelected in the courtroom.
That would be crazy.
(24:26):
A lot of fun.
Oh yeah, just like today, yeah,so, um, when are we voting?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, the um.
You can register to vote allthe way up until April 7th, I
think as a Saturday, so maybeApril 6th, so you can register
all the way up until April 6th.
April 9th starts early votingand the early voting is at
certain locations, I think thecourthouse and then maybe on
weekends at like, the GolayCenter, first English Lutheran
Church.
(24:55):
There are certain locations inWayne County where you can vote
early and then all the votingcenters get opened up on May 7th
for the last day.
So early voting starts on April9th, last day of voting, may
7th.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Okay, and who are we voting for?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
We're voting for Ron Moore for judge of Wayne spirit
Number one not the Supreme court.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I'll leave that at the pizza place.
Yeah, that's right Superiorsuperior court.
I'll write it on my hand beforeI go in the vote.
There's not a Supreme on thisticket.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, I'm a Republican candidate, so you
have to pull the Republicanticket in order to vote.
You know all of the all of theRepublican.
Let me put it this way theRepublican ballot is very filled
this year, from thepresidential election to our
congressional congressionalcandidates, to to our judges
(25:47):
position.
There's some other down-ticketelections that are really
important too, but there'scertainly, like I said, a really
important reason why ourelectorate needs to get out and
vote this year Absolutely, andthat's because, quite honestly,
if you really think about itright, a judge's position has
probably more impact on ourcommunity than what people
(26:11):
really recognize.
It's incredibly important.
This is the first year the firsttime, I'm sorry, this is the
first time we've had a contestedjudicial election in 22 years.
So, the last contested judicialelection.
Now we've had some changes ofjudges.
Right, we've had changes ofjudges, but they've all been
gubernatorial appointments.
The governor has come out andsaid, okay, this is the person
(26:31):
we're going to have.
That takes it out of theelectorate's hands.
So the last time we've had acontested election has been 2002
between Judge Dolehany andJudge Holsher, and what we know
is Judge Dolehany won, created agreat legacy in Superior Court
III, created family court.
He's created a great legacy inSuperior Court.
Iii created family court.
He's created some really greatjuvenile court initiatives.
(26:54):
Those kinds of things don'tcome into play until the
electorate gets involved,because when the governor comes
out and appoints people, ittakes it out of the electorate's
hands, right.
So it's really important that wehave an active, active
electorate this year, because ajudicial position is truly
(27:15):
important.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Very cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
Is there anything?
We'll wrap it up.
Is there anything you want toleave us with at all?
I mean, we've covered a lot ofstuff.
I might.
We might actually have two orthree episodes out of this,
which would be really cool.
But if there's anything youwant to leave us with, Hopefully
you'll edit out a lot of thebad stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I'm stumbling over my words.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
No, that's all me.
I'm the one that can't talk.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Here's what I'd really like to leave you with.
To be quite honest with you, Icome from pretty humble
beginnings.
You know I'm not a I'm not thekind of guy where it's lost on
me that people have needs andpeople have.
People come into the legalsystem in pain, you know, and I
(28:07):
I just it's really important forpeople to know that I'm an
average person as far as likeunderstanding where people come
from.
I'm not average when it comesto intellect.
I'm not average when it comesto ability.
I'm not average when it comesto desire to be in a courtroom.
You know, I've wanted to be in acourtroom my entire life.
Uh, as far as you know, being alawyer, I wanted to be in a
(28:28):
courtroom from the day that Igraduated all the way till today
, and I still want to be in acourtroom.
I just want to be behind thebench and I know that that's my
calling.
It's a noble calling and I lovethe practice of law.
It is a noble profession wherewe can help people and I know
that behind the bench I can helpmore people.
It's really important peopleand I know that behind the bench
(28:49):
, I can help more people.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's really important and that's good, because from
my personal experience with youand I've told people I talked
I'm very vulnerable.
I like I've learned this wholepower of vulnerability thing and
throughout all my fuck-ups inlife and everything else, and
then sobriety and whatnot but wecan sit down at the country
club and shoot the shit withpeople.
(29:11):
We can also sit down at anylittle tavern, you know, and we
love all of these people equallyand we see all of them as human
.
I love, we understand.
You know what I mean, like, andthat's that's the thing, um is
that you're very empatheticeticand like we've talked about all
(29:31):
evening, it's about that humanbeing and what they need.
So that's what's really cool,man.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, I tell you it's .
You know, no one wants to talkabout their worst five moments
in their life.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And yet in the judicial system, in the legal
system, that's what we deal with, and you know, good people find
themselves in situations thatare not the best situation, but
that's where someone who hasempathy, compassion and talent
and ability has to all mergetogether.
It has to in order for there tobe an effective judge who
(30:07):
really can call those balls andstrikes in a way that really is
meaningful for them.
That's what we need absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, well, man, I appreciate you coming up here
hanging out so thank you for thetime.
I really appreciate theopportunity and I'm gonna hold
you to it.
You get elected and we have todo something in the courtroom.
You got some type of video.
I think it'd be cool, just afollow-up.
You can talk, I'll follow youfor a day or something like that
.
We'll see how that goes.
Yeah, I'm following youeverywhere.
(30:38):
I don't want to know everything, but that'd be fun.
So got it all right.
Thanks, that's it, man.
Appreciate you.
Life inscripted with kevinshook.
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