June 1, 2024 • 40 mins
Why does singing in a choir have such an impact on people that they cherish those moments for the rest of their lives? Our show today explores a few of the many stories people have shared with us about the importance of being in a choir. Today’s guest is M. Nicole Davis, an Assistant Professor of Choral Conducting and Choral Music Education at the University of Arizona. She’s an ideal person to speak to the meaning of being in a choir, because she intentionally cultivates connection and community in her choirs. Musical Memories by Thomas Gregg, Samantha Jackson, and Robert Groves lead our discussion.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Lifetimes of Listening.
(00:06):
Music is about making connections with human beings.
Singing is sharing a part of yourself.
And I told myself, that's something I want to do one day.
I want to be up on that stage.
Lifetimes of Listening.
Welcome to Lifetimes of Listening, a podcast that seeks to understand why music is important
(00:28):
in people's lives.
Today's topic, we're talking about on being in the choir.
So many of us have had rewarding, memorable experiences being in a choir or chorus at
some point in our life.
There's a quality to that experience which we'll reflect on with our guest.
And by listening to some people's musical memories of their experience at a choir or
(00:49):
chorus.
Dan, have you any particular memories associated with being in a vocal group?
Well, that's an interesting question.
I haven't done a lot of vocal group singing in my life.
Most of my life I've been as a musician, a percussionist, a drum set player, orchestral
percussion and so forth.
But when I was a teenager, I got involved in our church choir.
(01:13):
This is in suburban St. Louis at Faith Salem United Church of Christ.
And I was probably in the choir for a couple of years, maybe when I was 13, 14 years old,
because I remember my dad had to drive me to the rehearsals about a mile away at the
church.
And I don't remember the songs that we sang.
(01:33):
I don't remember their context in a religious sense or in terms of what hymns we were singing.
What I remember most about being in this choir is that there was this tremendous conductor
whose name I can't think of right now.
And he worked so hard with us to create a sense of group, a sense of belonging in this
group, a sense that we were really doing something special together.
(01:59):
That he made it that kind of an experience for me.
There was even a special, I won't get into it because it's rather bizarre and complicated,
there was a special welcoming ceremony with which new members to the youth choir would
be brought into the group.
It took about five minutes, but helped them to feel enveloped and cared about by the group
(02:20):
as a member of this youth choir.
I just remember how inspiring that was when I was welcomed to the choir that way and when
I welcomed others to the choir through this particular little ritual that he had.
So that's my primary recollection.
It's not so much a musical recollection, though every couple of Sundays we would be there
on Sunday morning for both services at the church.
(02:42):
The youth choir was going to sing this morning and we'd sing.
It was just being in that group and the wonderful spirit of this man, the conductor who led
us.
How about you?
I mean you're a real vocal guy, you're a real choir kind of guy, Brian.
So what memories do you have to share with us?
For me they're so tied up with what it is to be a musician and everything else, but
(03:02):
one that sticks out and in some ways I'm responding to your story, this person who understood
how to do a church choir right.
When I was 21 years old, my very first ever time that I was conducting a little country
church in Georgia, United Methodist Country Church Choir 15, first time I was ever a choir
(03:26):
director, you'll be surprised to hear this.
I was going on and on about the meaning of music in the middle of rehearsal and one of
the altos, this lovely lady that I became good close friends with, but this alto stood
up and she said, Brian it's nice to hear what you think this music means, but we just want
(03:47):
to sing.
Let's get down to business here.
So we started rehearsing and that was a really important lesson to learn as a choir director.
It is about singing.
People are there to sing.
So many people have memories of involvement in choral groups, choirs and choruses and
(04:09):
that's what today's episode is all about.
We're going to be welcoming our guest who is Dr. M. Nicole Davis.
She's an assistant professor of music and choral conducting and choral music education
here at the University of Arizona School of Music.
So stay with us.
That conversation with Dr. Davis is coming up on Lifetimes of Listening.
(04:44):
Our guest today on Lifetimes of Listening is Dr. M. Nicole Davis, assistant professor
of music, choral conducting and choral music education at the University of Arizona School
of Music.
An active researcher, Dr. Davis is a sought after guest lecturer and panelist and in the
past she's presented at numerous state, regional and national conferences including the National
(05:05):
Association of Negro Musicians and the National Association for Music Education.
And she's active in multiple service roles for her profession as the national scholarship
chair for NANM, a leadership team member for women in choral higher ed and a Voices for
Social Justice board member.
Her scholarly interest examined the intersectionality of social, racial and economic factors with
(05:30):
music education and performance.
Dr. M. Nicole Davis, Nicole, welcome to Lifetimes of Listening.
Thanks for having me.
You're a busy person.
Yes.
Well, that's a good thing.
It's great to have you.
Thanks so much.
Thank you for giving us some of your time.
Do you have a musical memory, a story about how you came to be a choir director?
(05:55):
Sure.
I was in high school.
I had been singing for many years, about since the fourth grade or so.
And I remember I had a very high GPA and so everyone was trying to get me to do, they
go into nursing or law or med school and all those things that they talk about, you know,
(06:16):
towards the end of your high school career.
And I just wasn't excited about those things.
But I realized maybe my junior year that I started to spend a lot of time in the choir
room.
And around that same time, we had a student teacher come from a local university.
And I think that was the first time it dawned upon me that you could get a degree that would
(06:39):
allow you to become a choral teacher.
I could do this for a living.
And I was like, I am hooked.
So I was very excited, instantly bonded to that teacher.
They actually ended up staying another year.
So I got to pick from your brain, find out so many things and they helped me prepare
for my audition thing.
So one thing led to another.
(07:00):
Here I am.
Would it be appropriate to name that?
Oh, yes.
Dr. Carlton Kilpatrick is a delightful human working now at a university in Louisiana.
All right.
Yeah.
So many of us have had that sort of figure in our life.
Somebody who just turns us on to whatever kind of music we happen to be moving toward.
I mean, I had a band director in high school who just was a hero.
(07:24):
Still is.
It's been 50 years since I was in high school.
The man's still a hero to me.
One thing, Nicole, I wanted to ask about is I've been just kind of at random keep coming
across articles wherever in the paper, the New York Times, online that talk about the
importance and the value of singing with people, people singing in a group, that it really
(07:46):
is an important thing for us on a social level, musical level, an emotional level, even maybe
a cognitive level, that just singing with other people is a good thing for us to be
doing.
What do you make on that?
And do you think, A, do you agree, which I think I know the answer to that question,
but what's behind that, do you think?
(08:07):
Well, obviously, yes, I agree.
I've built my whole life around this concept.
I know personally choir was a life-changing experience for me.
When I was quite young, I was very introverted.
I barely spoke to my family.
Didn't talk to anyone in class and was just very never made eye contact.
(08:29):
My mother said, you need to join the choir.
I was like, no, please don't make me do this.
There's people in there.
Once I did, she says that I started talking in the fourth grade and have never stopped.
There was just this thing that clicked out of my brain where I learned these social skills
personally for me, organizational skills, analytical skills.
(08:51):
For me, it's always been the tool that I learned best through.
I know that's not true for everyone, but it's certainly what it means to me personally.
As I've gone through years and taught and presented, I've noticed that for some folks,
it's just the simple joy of making music together.
They say, this is my favorite class of the day.
(09:14):
I came to school so I could go to choir today.
They may not always be the best singer in the choir, but they enjoy that experience.
I never wrote down their responses, but just the ways they would interact with each other,
intentionally building friendships across what would be a social barrier outside of
the choral classroom.
(09:36):
We had football players, cheerleaders, AP kids, kids who would not put themselves in
any of those categories.
Music and singing together serves as a mediator between people of different backgrounds and
interests.
Absolutely.
They can come together and do this thing together that they might not otherwise.
It's true community.
I think that's the term that comes up not just from music teachers, but also from the
(10:00):
students in the room.
They always say, it's a family, it's a community, it's ultimate togetherness.
I was curious.
Something you just said resonates with me a little bit.
This is something that I've said and I've gotten a few people's take on this in the
past, but I almost feel like there's a part of most choir directors, maybe not all, that
(10:23):
we're professional extroverts.
It's like, okay, I'm standing on the podium now and now I'm an extrovert.
Now I'm going to go into my room, where my piano and my recordings, put my headphones
back on and I'm back to my recharge mode where I study up to get ready to go back out there
again.
(10:44):
Do you have that?
Is that... Is there something about a choral director's mentality or is this just me projecting?
As typical people like me say, that would be an interesting study because it really
would be.
I know that I do have some colleagues that are extroverts and they're just always on,
(11:07):
but for myself and several other of my friends, it's just, this is what I live for.
It's that time where I'm talking about choral music, talking to people and with people about
it and making choral music is just the most alive I ever feel.
It's not even a conscious trade of energy one way or the other.
(11:29):
I just know that when I get up on the podium, I'm having the time of my life and I want
everyone in the room to be having the time of their life.
We're just building this great thing together and oh yeah, at the same time, the music gets
better.
That's my focus and philosophy, but then I've noticed that after a really great choir rehearsal,
(11:49):
I am exhausted, not just physically, but mentally, spiritually, all the adverbs you want to add.
Sometimes I'm hungry.
I have burned everything, but then I just go, it was worth it.
What you were just talking about, Brian, I think that theme also arose when we did a
(12:12):
podcast episode on mariachi music a few months ago.
In that context, young people getting into mariachi music are allowed and encouraged
to take a leadership role, maybe a solo or something, that they've got all this support.
Music acts as a vehicle for giving people that opportunity, people who might be introverted,
(12:32):
to do something that's a little out of their comfort range, but there's something about
music that makes that more possible for them, I think.
I can remember having little solos and orchestral things that I've been involved in because
I haven't done a lot of singing in my life, mainly a percussionist, but a little solo
that I have to prepare for and do scares the hell out of me.
(12:53):
Once it's done, and I've seen an audience respond to that, there's such a feeling of
empowerment.
There's a sense that I'm doing something with the support of other people here that's
good for us, that's good for them, and it's rewarding in that sense.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Well, okay, Dr. Nicole Davis.
Nicole, we really appreciate having you on our program today, Lifetimes of Listening.
(13:16):
In just a minute, we're going to share with you several musical memories that we've recorded
and gathered about that experience of being in the choir, and ask you to listen to those
three stories and then respond to them.
I expect you'll have some really interesting reflections on these stories and what these
people have shared with us.
So that's coming up shortly here.
Stay with us on Lifetimes of Listening.
(13:58):
And now we have some musical memories about being in a choir to play for our guest, Dr.
Nicole Davis.
And we're going to play these stories one at a time for you, and let you just reflect
on them with us in real time, and help us understand how they reflect what being in
(14:19):
a choir is all about a little bit.
So the first story that I have for you is by Robert Groves, who's a classics professor
and a long-time friend of mine.
He's one of the people on campus.
I've watched him teach in several contexts.
I've worked on him in committees.
He's just a very, very easy person to admire.
(14:42):
And I never knew for the longest time until I had this interview that he was a lifelong
choral singer.
And so it was lovely to discover.
So let me play for you Robert Groves' story.
My name is Rob Groves.
I'm a professor of practice in the classics department here at the University of Arizona.
I was in choir all throughout middle school and high school, but I have a very strong
(15:06):
memory of the sort of the choir class in my second school, in my second high school and
senior year, as being like the one place where I felt connected with other people in a way
that was not true in my other classes.
And not that people were bad or anything.
It's just I had a very strong sense of being an intruder amongst people who knew each other
(15:29):
very well.
And the boundaries were lower in choir.
And that was a pretty important place for me.
Choir forces you to be vulnerable, right?
I mean, singing maybe even more than playing a musical instrument or something is sharing
(15:49):
a part of yourself and a part that is easy to be judged on that can go wrong in a lot
of different ways.
I think it encourages us to be a little more vulnerable around each other.
And the fact that you are working together with people so closely, and this would be
true in a band or an orchestra or any kind of group really, but that communal pull where
(16:17):
both the kind of unity of purpose and also the differences that each person or each section
brings to things is not something that often happens, right?
And it's not competitive in the way that, for example, sports maybe has some of those
elements but is focused on beating someone as opposed to just creating something.
(16:37):
There are not a lot of good communal activities in our society at the moment.
And choir, it strikes me, is one of the ones in which people can come together with a shared
purpose but with a kind of low bar to entry, right?
Rather than being willing to put yourself out there and having some basic musical competency,
(16:57):
it doesn't require a lot of money, it doesn't require a lot of extensive training, just
sort of a willingness to be there and do the work and yeah, contribute.
So your thoughts?
Yeah, that actually resonates with me strongly.
I think I'll start at the end and work my way back to the beginning and hopefully I
can remember.
Yeah.
(17:18):
I think the facet of the low entry bar is one of the strongest facets of choir.
It's actually one of the reasons why I ever started singing.
I was originally in the band but then my parents couldn't afford to keep renting the instrument.
So then I joined choir because I certainly did not want to play a sport.
(17:42):
That's just a personal thing.
And so choir, I was just able to walk in the room and participate.
And so that was great for me and that was one of the things that I used to constantly
recruit people for my choir.
I was like, they're like, oh, I can't sing.
That's what I teach.
It's fine.
Just come in the room.
And you don't have to rent an instrument.
You carry your voice with you.
(18:03):
It's you.
But then that is also the tricky part that they brought up is that the person is the
instrument and that is incredibly vulnerable that I think not a lot of people realize.
So I have right now I'm teaching secondary choral methods and majority of the classroom
(18:25):
are instrumental players.
And so we've been talking mostly about how the voice is both same and different than
so many instruments.
But the key difference is if your external instrument breaks, you can say, oh, I can't
play today because this thing that is outside of me has been broken.
(18:47):
However, when you're singing, anything that happens in your life and or body can affect
your singing voice.
Anything at all.
The air, the room you were in, how much sleep you got last night, what did you just eat?
So all of these things affect this incredibly vulnerable instrument that some people can
(19:08):
also use way easier than other folks.
And so there is kind of this idea of mastery that you can master singing it better and
better.
But also there are lovely points of entry to singing that are just communal and walk
in the room and there's a place for you, which is why, you know, America has a history of
(19:28):
congregational singing and community sings and college choir started out of people who
sang in the community, but then also wanted to sing on campus.
And take me out to the ball game.
And take it out.
Right.
And then the English tradition of singing at every single soccer slash football game,
you know, that kind of thing where people are just bonded together, screaming at the
top of their lungs.
(19:49):
But it's still singing and it's still community and it's still just the humans making sound.
So it's really neat.
Yeah, I, I, uh, this idea of, of, um, how being an acquire forces you to be vulnerable
and but also to acknowledge the vulnerability of those around you in real time, um, is part
(20:12):
of the reason why I think everybody has to just, you know, be an acquirer.
If you're hearing my voice now, go join acquire.
Um, but, but it's, uh, there's something about that, that because there's not a lot of places
where you have to do that.
I mean, they're, um, a typical classroom, even one that where a lovely community has
been built, built around that, um, still allows you to sort of keep that shell of yourself
(20:37):
a little bit, but you can't do that.
If you, if you do that in acquire, you're always a beat behind and you're not blending
with, you know, like you have to put yourself out there enough to know whether or not you're
part of the making, making the sounds to join the group.
So there's, yeah.
Um, I'd like to play another story for you.
(20:59):
So this, this story is from Samantha Jackson, Samantha Evelyn Jackson.
She's a, um, I believe actually she just graduated.
Um, although I'm, uh, if, if not, she's about to graduate and, um, was a student of mine
and, uh, and in the longer story, which is all about choral singing, she discusses her,
(21:21):
um, sadness at not being an acquire anymore.
And I was like, Oh, you gotta go join acquire.
So I, I hope, uh, I hope if she hears this now that she is by now an acquire, but here's
her story.
Hi, um, my name is Samantha, but I also go by Evelyn.
I'm a junior here at the university of Arizona.
I'm a game design and development major.
(21:42):
When I was younger, my sister, she, uh, she, she's like, she's eight years older than me.
And I remember this moment.
Uh, I was in elementary school, my sister, she was performing at, I believe it was district
choir.
I know there, there were different things for the state.
And, um, I remember sitting there, her singing and like with her choir and all the other
choirs and I told myself, that's something I want to do one day.
(22:04):
I want to be up on that stage.
We had academies where I'm from.
I'm from Virginia beach and each high school had like a specific academy.
So there was like an academy was called the visual and performing arts academy.
I applied there, I had to sing to get in and I went there specifically because I remembered
back when I was in elementary school, seeing my sister perform, there was, there was a
(22:27):
choir that they wore all these red dresses and I was like, I want to wear that red dress.
And so I applied and then I got in.
I thought that's the high school I went to every just now and then I'll think, you know,
thinking back to that moment when I was like a little girl and wanting to pursue music.
(22:47):
I was like, I knew I was going to do it and I did it.
I believe it was my sophomore year of high school, the entire vocal strand.
We went to Florida and we got to perform at Epcot.
We were singing with people all across the country.
We sang, we had to memorize like 20 different songs.
I remember the binder was like this thick.
And one thing in particular I remember is when people would, like the people around
(23:12):
me, I was able to hear like each individual voice and I remember there were these guys
behind me and I was like, oh my God, like I, I love a male singing voice and I like,
I just am mesmerized by like hearing all the different people.
I was in district choir and during practice I hit a note that I didn't think I was going
to be able to hit.
(23:32):
And this person next to me, they go, you sounded amazing.
And I felt, I felt honored because like when other people actually say to me, like I have
never really had the courage to turn around and be like, hey, you sound amazing.
Cause I was like, oh my God, they're going to think I'm weird or something like that.
And so when people have done it to me, I'm like, it makes me feel like I'm a part of
(23:54):
the sound and somebody can actually hear me.
That's sweet.
I like that.
Yeah.
That was really touching story about realizing you're, you're part of a whole, but also the
bravery to compliment and assess and be, and find value in your own, your own, your own
(24:21):
assessment of other people's talent and, and, and wanting to encourage them, I think is
really great.
I think it sounds like even the past, the both Evelyn and the previous speaker, they
had, they had good choir teachers.
And when I say good choir teachers, I don't mean how well they could read music or play
the piano or wave their hands, but it sounds as if there was a cultural aspect to their
(24:48):
core rehearsals that encouraged celebrating other people.
And I think that is, we assume that's a given sometimes, because I think most people that
we talk to about choir and have a choir, a positive choir experience has, has had a director
like that.
However, that's not every choral experience.
There are some that can be very difficult, very competitive, almost even traumatizing
(25:12):
in some ways with the ways that they kind of compete against each other.
So I think it is just so important to hear the light in her voice as she talks about
that and understand that it comes from a director or a group of directors who intentionally
tell their students to celebrate each other.
(25:34):
All of this conversation is, I just had this really, you know, very clear flash of this
moment in a choir rehearsal where I was supposed to try out for a solo and we did a run, one
pass through and this was, I was getting a master's degree at the time in choral conducting.
(25:55):
And so, you know, presumably would have the wherewithal to make this assessment anyway.
But we did a one run through and the other person did the solo and then it was my turn
to do the solo.
And I just told the director, no, that's, you want him.
Like, you know, like that was the one, you know, because I didn't have anything to offer
(26:16):
that wasn't just there in that run through.
And there was something in the moment, it wasn't about humbling.
It was about, no, my job is to learn how to listen and know what's best to do this.
But that was a fairly competitive taught choir.
It was not as community based as I like choirs to be.
(26:39):
I do believe to some extent I can hear sometimes where there is a community in a choir.
Like there's something about it.
And it's not just the joy in people's faces or something.
It's a tangible commitment to sound that I feel is measurable.
But I'm saying this subjectively, never having tried to measure it.
(27:02):
I don't know if it is possible to measure that.
And I do know that sometimes when the conductor is a jerk and the choir, you know, the choir
is, it comes out in the sound a little bit.
Okay.
Well, Nicole, we've got one more story that's really an interesting one that we're going
to share with you in just a minute on this topic of being in a choir.
(27:25):
It has to do with the remarkable friendship that developed in the context of a choir or
choral rehearsal and that enduring friendship and how meaningful that became for both of
those people in that.
You're going to hear that story and we'll get your reflections on it in just a minute
here on Lifetimes of Listening.
(28:03):
So musical memory number three for this episode, it's a gentleman named Tom Thomas Greg.
He's a retired voice teacher from the Boston Conservatory at Berkeley, a lifelong singer
and a full disclosure here, I understand that Brian, you take occasional voice lessons from
Tom.
Five or six, as many as I can, as I can, because I've learned more about voice from him in
(28:24):
my fifties than they have in the first, you know, first 50 years.
Well, in this story, Tom Greg reflects on a friendship that was created in the context
of a choral rehearsal and how that friendship endured over many, many years in some surprising
ways.
So let's listen to Tom Greg's story right now.
My name's Tom Greg, Thomas Greg.
(28:46):
I've been a professional voice teacher and professional singer tenor since I was in college
basically.
Today, which is March 23rd, is a dear friend of mine's birthday.
Her name is Carrie Crabill and she is a choral conductor.
(29:06):
I met her in Washington, D.C. in about 1983.
I was singing at a church in Alexandria, Virginia and she was the substitute for the soprano
and she was a lovely person and she sat in front of me for the rehearsal.
And for two weeks she had two barrettes in the back of her head, which I saw every week
(29:29):
for those two weeks.
And the third week when she came, she was still subbing for the soprano.
The third week one of them was missing and I said, oh, you're a cyclops this week.
And she turned around and laughed and we introduced ourselves to each other and it turned out
she had a little choral group at the time called MusiContin and I said, oh, I'm looking
(29:53):
for a group to be a part of.
Could I come and sing in your group?
And so that was sort of the beginning of my relationship with her as a singer.
And we sort of had some really fabulous performances together.
(30:15):
And then I left Washington, D.C. and I went on to do other things and we lost touch.
And about 25 years later, I was singing in a concert in Boston and guess who shows up?
My friend Carrie Crabill.
And she said, I'm moving to Montana.
Would you like to come out and sing for me sometime in Montana?
(30:38):
And I said, what?
Wow.
Okay.
A couple years later, she was doing this thing she calls the Helena Choral Week.
So they called me up and said, would you come and be a part of the Helena Choral Week?
And I have done those choral weeks for about over a decade now.
(31:02):
But our relationship has lasted for many, many, many years now.
And it was all because of that one moment in that one church choir rehearsal.
One of the things I've learned along the way is that music is about making connections
with human beings.
When we fail or we succeed at human relations, it's meaningful.
(31:26):
It's the people that have been important.
It's the relationships.
And what I realized is that that's as important as the music itself.
It's about connections beyond the music.
And if the music is a vehicle for that, then yeah, it's a good thing.
(31:47):
Isn't that a wonderful story?
Wonderful story.
Yeah, I love listening to that.
What they can't hear is that I was nodding vigorously in that portion of the story where
they said it's the relationships that are important, maybe even more so than the music.
And that's certainly how I feel in relation to making the music, choosing the music, and
(32:13):
also teaching and performing the music.
Poetry is one of the things that I tend to focus on when I'm choosing repertoire for
the choir.
And I go, okay, is this an open enough poem that everyone in the ensemble can find something
to hold on to?
To me, that really changes the level of engagement in a rehearsal.
(32:37):
When I say, what does this sentence mean to you all?
They can share.
And I say, okay, well, based on that interpretation, what word is most important in the sentence
so we can actually communicate and collaborate on a performance so as not just, I, almighty
conductor must choose the importance of everything.
(32:57):
It is what is important to the folks who are participating in this performance with me,
and how can we make music together, even on the day of the concert where I look at the
person that made that suggestion and give the cue that signals the choir to put that
meaning into the song and then they have that buy-in.
(33:20):
And so I feel like these communications and these relationships help bring together folks
that maybe even wouldn't be the most extroverted to go back to that theme.
That every great singer doesn't have one of those bubbly personalities and everybody with
a bubbly personality isn't necessarily a great singer and then everything in the spectrum
in between, but we all have human experiences.
(33:43):
And if we return to human experiences, then we can change vocal color based on a human
experience.
We can change articulation based on a human experience.
We can interpret the poem or the concert theme or our facial expression during that time,
all based on human experiences.
And even sometimes I will ask the choir to say, you know what, this is, especially in
(34:06):
a strophic work where everything will sound the same, I will say, can you sing this and
emphasize whatever word means the most to you in that moment?
And the audience will feel that with you.
And it just sounds like this beautiful cacophony of musicality.
And all I get to do is just keep a steady beat to make sure that we don't get too run
away with our emotions.
(34:27):
But it's really meaningful for them to choose their own meaning with things.
But that comes from a relationship with the conductor and with each other and feeling
safe to do that then in front of a room full of people that they may not know.
When I first, just time, I'm just, I'm totally going to use that suggestion next time I do
a strophic piece with the choir.
(34:50):
That's brilliant.
I mean, I've done fairings of it, but what you just stated was so much better than the
way that I've said it.
So thank you.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead, Dan.
I cut you off.
I was going to reflect from kind of a interdisciplinary nature here.
My studies here at the University of Arizona were largely about ethnomusicology.
The book that really turned me on to ethnomusicology is a book called How Musical is Man by a
(35:14):
gentleman named John Blacking.
The entire thesis of the book is that music is a reflection of human relationships.
That's what it is.
That it reflects who we are in relation to one another.
And it can't be looked at aside from that.
I think that's what Tom was getting at the end of his.
That music is important, but really this is a human activity first and foremost.
(35:39):
And to just hear that expressed so beautifully in that kind of quirky story.
I mean the cyclops and the hair beret and 25 years go by, wow, what a great thing.
But it was a joy to hear him reflect on how enduring this, that the friendship was so
strong that 25 years later they found another way to collaborate together musically, which
is just a great thing.
And I really am grateful to hear how you, you know, good choral pedagogy is about on
(36:08):
some level empowering these kinds of relationships to form and to give them space.
And to hear you talk about it in the way that you are bringing it to choirs is really lovely.
Yeah.
So thanks for listening and reflecting.
Any closing thoughts that you'd like to share with our podcast audience about choral music
(36:31):
and its importance, its beauty?
I would say to allow choral music to come out of the box.
So when we think about choral music, we think about folks standing up in concert black,
holding music folders, singing a particular type of music.
But I would encourage any kind of group singing you can think of as choral music, whether
(36:57):
it's a community singing or singing with your family or friends or watching a YouTube video
with the sheet music going across and you all just, I mean, all of that encourages those
same, these same kind of moments in your community.
So just try.
(37:17):
Don't constrain yourself from your preconception about what a choir is to letting you tap into
some of the stuff that we're talking about.
Absolutely.
Well, that's a great closing thought.
So Dr. M. Nicole Davis, Nicole of the University of Arizona School of Music, thanks so much
for being our guest today here on Lifetimes of Listening.
Thank you so much.
(37:37):
Thanks for having me.
So there's another episode of Lifetimes of Listening.
Thanks so much for listening today with us as we've had this wonderful conversation.
(38:01):
Now if you haven't done so already, we'd like you to invite you to follow or subscribe to
this podcast on your favorite podcast app.
We hope you'll also consider participating in our project by telling us your story.
We're extremely grateful for the more than 180 people who've recorded a story for the
Arizona Musical Memory Archive.
(38:21):
It's allowing us to better understand the ways people value music.
And if you haven't visited our website at musicalmemories.music.arizona.edu, please
do so because there you'll find full length interviews like the ones that we have shared
here today.
And at that website you can also submit, if you'd like, a musical memory of your own via
(38:43):
a sound file, an essay, a poem, even an illustration of some sort, or suggest someone who you know,
who you think might want to share their musical memory with us.
And that website is musicalmemories.music.arizona.edu.
I'm Dan Cruz.
And I'm Brian Moon.
Thanks for listening.
(39:06):
The executive producer of Lifetimes of Listening, the Arizona Musical Memory podcast is Brian
Moon.
The program is produced and edited by Dan Cruz.
The Lifetimes of Listening website was created by Cynthia Barlow, principal information technology
manager with the University of Arizona School of Music.
(39:27):
Music is from zapsplat.com and from pixabay.com.
Special thanks to the University of Arizona School of Music and the UA College of Fine
Arts for their continued support of the Lifetimes of Listening Musical Memory Archive and this
podcast.
For more information and to get involved in our research, visit musicalmemories.music.arizona.edu.
(39:53):
This is Lifetimes of Listening, the Arizona Musical Memory podcast.
Lifetimes of Listening.
(00:06):
Music is about making connections with human beings.
Singing is sharing a part of yourself.
And I told myself, that's something I want to do one day.
I want to be up on that stage.
Lifetimes of Listening.
Welcome to Lifetimes of Listening, a podcast that seeks to understand why music is important
(00:28):
in people's lives.
Today's topic, we're talking about on being in the choir.
So many of us have had rewarding, memorable experiences being in a choir or chorus at
some point in our life.
There's a quality to that experience which we'll reflect on with our guest.
And by listening to some people's musical memories of their experience at a choir or
(00:49):
chorus.
Dan, have you any particular memories associated with being in a vocal group?
Well, that's an interesting question.
I haven't done a lot of vocal group singing in my life.
Most of my life I've been as a musician, a percussionist, a drum set player, orchestral
percussion and so forth.
But when I was a teenager, I got involved in our church choir.
(01:13):
This is in suburban St. Louis at Faith Salem United Church of Christ.
And I was probably in the choir for a couple of years, maybe when I was 13, 14 years old,
because I remember my dad had to drive me to the rehearsals about a mile away at the
church.
And I don't remember the songs that we sang.
(01:33):
I don't remember their context in a religious sense or in terms of what hymns we were singing.
What I remember most about being in this choir is that there was this tremendous conductor
whose name I can't think of right now.
And he worked so hard with us to create a sense of group, a sense of belonging in this
group, a sense that we were really doing something special together.
(01:59):
That he made it that kind of an experience for me.
There was even a special, I won't get into it because it's rather bizarre and complicated,
there was a special welcoming ceremony with which new members to the youth choir would
be brought into the group.
It took about five minutes, but helped them to feel enveloped and cared about by the group
(02:20):
as a member of this youth choir.
I just remember how inspiring that was when I was welcomed to the choir that way and when
I welcomed others to the choir through this particular little ritual that he had.
So that's my primary recollection.
It's not so much a musical recollection, though every couple of Sundays we would be there
on Sunday morning for both services at the church.
(02:42):
The youth choir was going to sing this morning and we'd sing.
It was just being in that group and the wonderful spirit of this man, the conductor who led
us.
How about you?
I mean you're a real vocal guy, you're a real choir kind of guy, Brian.
So what memories do you have to share with us?
For me they're so tied up with what it is to be a musician and everything else, but
(03:02):
one that sticks out and in some ways I'm responding to your story, this person who understood
how to do a church choir right.
When I was 21 years old, my very first ever time that I was conducting a little country
church in Georgia, United Methodist Country Church Choir 15, first time I was ever a choir
(03:26):
director, you'll be surprised to hear this.
I was going on and on about the meaning of music in the middle of rehearsal and one of
the altos, this lovely lady that I became good close friends with, but this alto stood
up and she said, Brian it's nice to hear what you think this music means, but we just want
(03:47):
to sing.
Let's get down to business here.
So we started rehearsing and that was a really important lesson to learn as a choir director.
It is about singing.
People are there to sing.
So many people have memories of involvement in choral groups, choirs and choruses and
(04:09):
that's what today's episode is all about.
We're going to be welcoming our guest who is Dr. M. Nicole Davis.
She's an assistant professor of music and choral conducting and choral music education
here at the University of Arizona School of Music.
So stay with us.
That conversation with Dr. Davis is coming up on Lifetimes of Listening.
(04:44):
Our guest today on Lifetimes of Listening is Dr. M. Nicole Davis, assistant professor
of music, choral conducting and choral music education at the University of Arizona School
of Music.
An active researcher, Dr. Davis is a sought after guest lecturer and panelist and in the
past she's presented at numerous state, regional and national conferences including the National
(05:05):
Association of Negro Musicians and the National Association for Music Education.
And she's active in multiple service roles for her profession as the national scholarship
chair for NANM, a leadership team member for women in choral higher ed and a Voices for
Social Justice board member.
Her scholarly interest examined the intersectionality of social, racial and economic factors with
(05:30):
music education and performance.
Dr. M. Nicole Davis, Nicole, welcome to Lifetimes of Listening.
Thanks for having me.
You're a busy person.
Yes.
Well, that's a good thing.
It's great to have you.
Thanks so much.
Thank you for giving us some of your time.
Do you have a musical memory, a story about how you came to be a choir director?
(05:55):
Sure.
I was in high school.
I had been singing for many years, about since the fourth grade or so.
And I remember I had a very high GPA and so everyone was trying to get me to do, they
go into nursing or law or med school and all those things that they talk about, you know,
(06:16):
towards the end of your high school career.
And I just wasn't excited about those things.
But I realized maybe my junior year that I started to spend a lot of time in the choir
room.
And around that same time, we had a student teacher come from a local university.
And I think that was the first time it dawned upon me that you could get a degree that would
(06:39):
allow you to become a choral teacher.
I could do this for a living.
And I was like, I am hooked.
So I was very excited, instantly bonded to that teacher.
They actually ended up staying another year.
So I got to pick from your brain, find out so many things and they helped me prepare
for my audition thing.
So one thing led to another.
(07:00):
Here I am.
Would it be appropriate to name that?
Oh, yes.
Dr. Carlton Kilpatrick is a delightful human working now at a university in Louisiana.
All right.
Yeah.
So many of us have had that sort of figure in our life.
Somebody who just turns us on to whatever kind of music we happen to be moving toward.
I mean, I had a band director in high school who just was a hero.
(07:24):
Still is.
It's been 50 years since I was in high school.
The man's still a hero to me.
One thing, Nicole, I wanted to ask about is I've been just kind of at random keep coming
across articles wherever in the paper, the New York Times, online that talk about the
importance and the value of singing with people, people singing in a group, that it really
(07:46):
is an important thing for us on a social level, musical level, an emotional level, even maybe
a cognitive level, that just singing with other people is a good thing for us to be
doing.
What do you make on that?
And do you think, A, do you agree, which I think I know the answer to that question,
but what's behind that, do you think?
(08:07):
Well, obviously, yes, I agree.
I've built my whole life around this concept.
I know personally choir was a life-changing experience for me.
When I was quite young, I was very introverted.
I barely spoke to my family.
Didn't talk to anyone in class and was just very never made eye contact.
(08:29):
My mother said, you need to join the choir.
I was like, no, please don't make me do this.
There's people in there.
Once I did, she says that I started talking in the fourth grade and have never stopped.
There was just this thing that clicked out of my brain where I learned these social skills
personally for me, organizational skills, analytical skills.
(08:51):
For me, it's always been the tool that I learned best through.
I know that's not true for everyone, but it's certainly what it means to me personally.
As I've gone through years and taught and presented, I've noticed that for some folks,
it's just the simple joy of making music together.
They say, this is my favorite class of the day.
(09:14):
I came to school so I could go to choir today.
They may not always be the best singer in the choir, but they enjoy that experience.
I never wrote down their responses, but just the ways they would interact with each other,
intentionally building friendships across what would be a social barrier outside of
the choral classroom.
(09:36):
We had football players, cheerleaders, AP kids, kids who would not put themselves in
any of those categories.
Music and singing together serves as a mediator between people of different backgrounds and
interests.
Absolutely.
They can come together and do this thing together that they might not otherwise.
It's true community.
I think that's the term that comes up not just from music teachers, but also from the
(10:00):
students in the room.
They always say, it's a family, it's a community, it's ultimate togetherness.
I was curious.
Something you just said resonates with me a little bit.
This is something that I've said and I've gotten a few people's take on this in the
past, but I almost feel like there's a part of most choir directors, maybe not all, that
(10:23):
we're professional extroverts.
It's like, okay, I'm standing on the podium now and now I'm an extrovert.
Now I'm going to go into my room, where my piano and my recordings, put my headphones
back on and I'm back to my recharge mode where I study up to get ready to go back out there
again.
(10:44):
Do you have that?
Is that... Is there something about a choral director's mentality or is this just me projecting?
As typical people like me say, that would be an interesting study because it really
would be.
I know that I do have some colleagues that are extroverts and they're just always on,
(11:07):
but for myself and several other of my friends, it's just, this is what I live for.
It's that time where I'm talking about choral music, talking to people and with people about
it and making choral music is just the most alive I ever feel.
It's not even a conscious trade of energy one way or the other.
(11:29):
I just know that when I get up on the podium, I'm having the time of my life and I want
everyone in the room to be having the time of their life.
We're just building this great thing together and oh yeah, at the same time, the music gets
better.
That's my focus and philosophy, but then I've noticed that after a really great choir rehearsal,
(11:49):
I am exhausted, not just physically, but mentally, spiritually, all the adverbs you want to add.
Sometimes I'm hungry.
I have burned everything, but then I just go, it was worth it.
What you were just talking about, Brian, I think that theme also arose when we did a
(12:12):
podcast episode on mariachi music a few months ago.
In that context, young people getting into mariachi music are allowed and encouraged
to take a leadership role, maybe a solo or something, that they've got all this support.
Music acts as a vehicle for giving people that opportunity, people who might be introverted,
(12:32):
to do something that's a little out of their comfort range, but there's something about
music that makes that more possible for them, I think.
I can remember having little solos and orchestral things that I've been involved in because
I haven't done a lot of singing in my life, mainly a percussionist, but a little solo
that I have to prepare for and do scares the hell out of me.
(12:53):
Once it's done, and I've seen an audience respond to that, there's such a feeling of
empowerment.
There's a sense that I'm doing something with the support of other people here that's
good for us, that's good for them, and it's rewarding in that sense.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Well, okay, Dr. Nicole Davis.
Nicole, we really appreciate having you on our program today, Lifetimes of Listening.
(13:16):
In just a minute, we're going to share with you several musical memories that we've recorded
and gathered about that experience of being in the choir, and ask you to listen to those
three stories and then respond to them.
I expect you'll have some really interesting reflections on these stories and what these
people have shared with us.
So that's coming up shortly here.
Stay with us on Lifetimes of Listening.
(13:58):
And now we have some musical memories about being in a choir to play for our guest, Dr.
Nicole Davis.
And we're going to play these stories one at a time for you, and let you just reflect
on them with us in real time, and help us understand how they reflect what being in
(14:19):
a choir is all about a little bit.
So the first story that I have for you is by Robert Groves, who's a classics professor
and a long-time friend of mine.
He's one of the people on campus.
I've watched him teach in several contexts.
I've worked on him in committees.
He's just a very, very easy person to admire.
(14:42):
And I never knew for the longest time until I had this interview that he was a lifelong
choral singer.
And so it was lovely to discover.
So let me play for you Robert Groves' story.
My name is Rob Groves.
I'm a professor of practice in the classics department here at the University of Arizona.
I was in choir all throughout middle school and high school, but I have a very strong
(15:06):
memory of the sort of the choir class in my second school, in my second high school and
senior year, as being like the one place where I felt connected with other people in a way
that was not true in my other classes.
And not that people were bad or anything.
It's just I had a very strong sense of being an intruder amongst people who knew each other
(15:29):
very well.
And the boundaries were lower in choir.
And that was a pretty important place for me.
Choir forces you to be vulnerable, right?
I mean, singing maybe even more than playing a musical instrument or something is sharing
(15:49):
a part of yourself and a part that is easy to be judged on that can go wrong in a lot
of different ways.
I think it encourages us to be a little more vulnerable around each other.
And the fact that you are working together with people so closely, and this would be
true in a band or an orchestra or any kind of group really, but that communal pull where
(16:17):
both the kind of unity of purpose and also the differences that each person or each section
brings to things is not something that often happens, right?
And it's not competitive in the way that, for example, sports maybe has some of those
elements but is focused on beating someone as opposed to just creating something.
(16:37):
There are not a lot of good communal activities in our society at the moment.
And choir, it strikes me, is one of the ones in which people can come together with a shared
purpose but with a kind of low bar to entry, right?
Rather than being willing to put yourself out there and having some basic musical competency,
(16:57):
it doesn't require a lot of money, it doesn't require a lot of extensive training, just
sort of a willingness to be there and do the work and yeah, contribute.
So your thoughts?
Yeah, that actually resonates with me strongly.
I think I'll start at the end and work my way back to the beginning and hopefully I
can remember.
Yeah.
(17:18):
I think the facet of the low entry bar is one of the strongest facets of choir.
It's actually one of the reasons why I ever started singing.
I was originally in the band but then my parents couldn't afford to keep renting the instrument.
So then I joined choir because I certainly did not want to play a sport.
(17:42):
That's just a personal thing.
And so choir, I was just able to walk in the room and participate.
And so that was great for me and that was one of the things that I used to constantly
recruit people for my choir.
I was like, they're like, oh, I can't sing.
That's what I teach.
It's fine.
Just come in the room.
And you don't have to rent an instrument.
You carry your voice with you.
(18:03):
It's you.
But then that is also the tricky part that they brought up is that the person is the
instrument and that is incredibly vulnerable that I think not a lot of people realize.
So I have right now I'm teaching secondary choral methods and majority of the classroom
(18:25):
are instrumental players.
And so we've been talking mostly about how the voice is both same and different than
so many instruments.
But the key difference is if your external instrument breaks, you can say, oh, I can't
play today because this thing that is outside of me has been broken.
(18:47):
However, when you're singing, anything that happens in your life and or body can affect
your singing voice.
Anything at all.
The air, the room you were in, how much sleep you got last night, what did you just eat?
So all of these things affect this incredibly vulnerable instrument that some people can
(19:08):
also use way easier than other folks.
And so there is kind of this idea of mastery that you can master singing it better and
better.
But also there are lovely points of entry to singing that are just communal and walk
in the room and there's a place for you, which is why, you know, America has a history of
(19:28):
congregational singing and community sings and college choir started out of people who
sang in the community, but then also wanted to sing on campus.
And take me out to the ball game.
And take it out.
Right.
And then the English tradition of singing at every single soccer slash football game,
you know, that kind of thing where people are just bonded together, screaming at the
top of their lungs.
(19:49):
But it's still singing and it's still community and it's still just the humans making sound.
So it's really neat.
Yeah, I, I, uh, this idea of, of, um, how being an acquire forces you to be vulnerable
and but also to acknowledge the vulnerability of those around you in real time, um, is part
(20:12):
of the reason why I think everybody has to just, you know, be an acquirer.
If you're hearing my voice now, go join acquire.
Um, but, but it's, uh, there's something about that, that because there's not a lot of places
where you have to do that.
I mean, they're, um, a typical classroom, even one that where a lovely community has
been built, built around that, um, still allows you to sort of keep that shell of yourself
(20:37):
a little bit, but you can't do that.
If you, if you do that in acquire, you're always a beat behind and you're not blending
with, you know, like you have to put yourself out there enough to know whether or not you're
part of the making, making the sounds to join the group.
So there's, yeah.
Um, I'd like to play another story for you.
(20:59):
So this, this story is from Samantha Jackson, Samantha Evelyn Jackson.
She's a, um, I believe actually she just graduated.
Um, although I'm, uh, if, if not, she's about to graduate and, um, was a student of mine
and, uh, and in the longer story, which is all about choral singing, she discusses her,
(21:21):
um, sadness at not being an acquire anymore.
And I was like, Oh, you gotta go join acquire.
So I, I hope, uh, I hope if she hears this now that she is by now an acquire, but here's
her story.
Hi, um, my name is Samantha, but I also go by Evelyn.
I'm a junior here at the university of Arizona.
I'm a game design and development major.
(21:42):
When I was younger, my sister, she, uh, she, she's like, she's eight years older than me.
And I remember this moment.
Uh, I was in elementary school, my sister, she was performing at, I believe it was district
choir.
I know there, there were different things for the state.
And, um, I remember sitting there, her singing and like with her choir and all the other
choirs and I told myself, that's something I want to do one day.
(22:04):
I want to be up on that stage.
We had academies where I'm from.
I'm from Virginia beach and each high school had like a specific academy.
So there was like an academy was called the visual and performing arts academy.
I applied there, I had to sing to get in and I went there specifically because I remembered
back when I was in elementary school, seeing my sister perform, there was, there was a
(22:27):
choir that they wore all these red dresses and I was like, I want to wear that red dress.
And so I applied and then I got in.
I thought that's the high school I went to every just now and then I'll think, you know,
thinking back to that moment when I was like a little girl and wanting to pursue music.
(22:47):
I was like, I knew I was going to do it and I did it.
I believe it was my sophomore year of high school, the entire vocal strand.
We went to Florida and we got to perform at Epcot.
We were singing with people all across the country.
We sang, we had to memorize like 20 different songs.
I remember the binder was like this thick.
And one thing in particular I remember is when people would, like the people around
(23:12):
me, I was able to hear like each individual voice and I remember there were these guys
behind me and I was like, oh my God, like I, I love a male singing voice and I like,
I just am mesmerized by like hearing all the different people.
I was in district choir and during practice I hit a note that I didn't think I was going
to be able to hit.
(23:32):
And this person next to me, they go, you sounded amazing.
And I felt, I felt honored because like when other people actually say to me, like I have
never really had the courage to turn around and be like, hey, you sound amazing.
Cause I was like, oh my God, they're going to think I'm weird or something like that.
And so when people have done it to me, I'm like, it makes me feel like I'm a part of
(23:54):
the sound and somebody can actually hear me.
That's sweet.
I like that.
Yeah.
That was really touching story about realizing you're, you're part of a whole, but also the
bravery to compliment and assess and be, and find value in your own, your own, your own
(24:21):
assessment of other people's talent and, and, and wanting to encourage them, I think is
really great.
I think it sounds like even the past, the both Evelyn and the previous speaker, they
had, they had good choir teachers.
And when I say good choir teachers, I don't mean how well they could read music or play
the piano or wave their hands, but it sounds as if there was a cultural aspect to their
(24:48):
core rehearsals that encouraged celebrating other people.
And I think that is, we assume that's a given sometimes, because I think most people that
we talk to about choir and have a choir, a positive choir experience has, has had a director
like that.
However, that's not every choral experience.
There are some that can be very difficult, very competitive, almost even traumatizing
(25:12):
in some ways with the ways that they kind of compete against each other.
So I think it is just so important to hear the light in her voice as she talks about
that and understand that it comes from a director or a group of directors who intentionally
tell their students to celebrate each other.
(25:34):
All of this conversation is, I just had this really, you know, very clear flash of this
moment in a choir rehearsal where I was supposed to try out for a solo and we did a run, one
pass through and this was, I was getting a master's degree at the time in choral conducting.
(25:55):
And so, you know, presumably would have the wherewithal to make this assessment anyway.
But we did a one run through and the other person did the solo and then it was my turn
to do the solo.
And I just told the director, no, that's, you want him.
Like, you know, like that was the one, you know, because I didn't have anything to offer
(26:16):
that wasn't just there in that run through.
And there was something in the moment, it wasn't about humbling.
It was about, no, my job is to learn how to listen and know what's best to do this.
But that was a fairly competitive taught choir.
It was not as community based as I like choirs to be.
(26:39):
I do believe to some extent I can hear sometimes where there is a community in a choir.
Like there's something about it.
And it's not just the joy in people's faces or something.
It's a tangible commitment to sound that I feel is measurable.
But I'm saying this subjectively, never having tried to measure it.
(27:02):
I don't know if it is possible to measure that.
And I do know that sometimes when the conductor is a jerk and the choir, you know, the choir
is, it comes out in the sound a little bit.
Okay.
Well, Nicole, we've got one more story that's really an interesting one that we're going
to share with you in just a minute on this topic of being in a choir.
(27:25):
It has to do with the remarkable friendship that developed in the context of a choir or
choral rehearsal and that enduring friendship and how meaningful that became for both of
those people in that.
You're going to hear that story and we'll get your reflections on it in just a minute
here on Lifetimes of Listening.
(28:03):
So musical memory number three for this episode, it's a gentleman named Tom Thomas Greg.
He's a retired voice teacher from the Boston Conservatory at Berkeley, a lifelong singer
and a full disclosure here, I understand that Brian, you take occasional voice lessons from
Tom.
Five or six, as many as I can, as I can, because I've learned more about voice from him in
(28:24):
my fifties than they have in the first, you know, first 50 years.
Well, in this story, Tom Greg reflects on a friendship that was created in the context
of a choral rehearsal and how that friendship endured over many, many years in some surprising
ways.
So let's listen to Tom Greg's story right now.
My name's Tom Greg, Thomas Greg.
(28:46):
I've been a professional voice teacher and professional singer tenor since I was in college
basically.
Today, which is March 23rd, is a dear friend of mine's birthday.
Her name is Carrie Crabill and she is a choral conductor.
(29:06):
I met her in Washington, D.C. in about 1983.
I was singing at a church in Alexandria, Virginia and she was the substitute for the soprano
and she was a lovely person and she sat in front of me for the rehearsal.
And for two weeks she had two barrettes in the back of her head, which I saw every week
(29:29):
for those two weeks.
And the third week when she came, she was still subbing for the soprano.
The third week one of them was missing and I said, oh, you're a cyclops this week.
And she turned around and laughed and we introduced ourselves to each other and it turned out
she had a little choral group at the time called MusiContin and I said, oh, I'm looking
(29:53):
for a group to be a part of.
Could I come and sing in your group?
And so that was sort of the beginning of my relationship with her as a singer.
And we sort of had some really fabulous performances together.
(30:15):
And then I left Washington, D.C. and I went on to do other things and we lost touch.
And about 25 years later, I was singing in a concert in Boston and guess who shows up?
My friend Carrie Crabill.
And she said, I'm moving to Montana.
Would you like to come out and sing for me sometime in Montana?
(30:38):
And I said, what?
Wow.
Okay.
A couple years later, she was doing this thing she calls the Helena Choral Week.
So they called me up and said, would you come and be a part of the Helena Choral Week?
And I have done those choral weeks for about over a decade now.
(31:02):
But our relationship has lasted for many, many, many years now.
And it was all because of that one moment in that one church choir rehearsal.
One of the things I've learned along the way is that music is about making connections
with human beings.
When we fail or we succeed at human relations, it's meaningful.
(31:26):
It's the people that have been important.
It's the relationships.
And what I realized is that that's as important as the music itself.
It's about connections beyond the music.
And if the music is a vehicle for that, then yeah, it's a good thing.
(31:47):
Isn't that a wonderful story?
Wonderful story.
Yeah, I love listening to that.
What they can't hear is that I was nodding vigorously in that portion of the story where
they said it's the relationships that are important, maybe even more so than the music.
And that's certainly how I feel in relation to making the music, choosing the music, and
(32:13):
also teaching and performing the music.
Poetry is one of the things that I tend to focus on when I'm choosing repertoire for
the choir.
And I go, okay, is this an open enough poem that everyone in the ensemble can find something
to hold on to?
To me, that really changes the level of engagement in a rehearsal.
(32:37):
When I say, what does this sentence mean to you all?
They can share.
And I say, okay, well, based on that interpretation, what word is most important in the sentence
so we can actually communicate and collaborate on a performance so as not just, I, almighty
conductor must choose the importance of everything.
(32:57):
It is what is important to the folks who are participating in this performance with me,
and how can we make music together, even on the day of the concert where I look at the
person that made that suggestion and give the cue that signals the choir to put that
meaning into the song and then they have that buy-in.
(33:20):
And so I feel like these communications and these relationships help bring together folks
that maybe even wouldn't be the most extroverted to go back to that theme.
That every great singer doesn't have one of those bubbly personalities and everybody with
a bubbly personality isn't necessarily a great singer and then everything in the spectrum
in between, but we all have human experiences.
(33:43):
And if we return to human experiences, then we can change vocal color based on a human
experience.
We can change articulation based on a human experience.
We can interpret the poem or the concert theme or our facial expression during that time,
all based on human experiences.
And even sometimes I will ask the choir to say, you know what, this is, especially in
(34:06):
a strophic work where everything will sound the same, I will say, can you sing this and
emphasize whatever word means the most to you in that moment?
And the audience will feel that with you.
And it just sounds like this beautiful cacophony of musicality.
And all I get to do is just keep a steady beat to make sure that we don't get too run
away with our emotions.
(34:27):
But it's really meaningful for them to choose their own meaning with things.
But that comes from a relationship with the conductor and with each other and feeling
safe to do that then in front of a room full of people that they may not know.
When I first, just time, I'm just, I'm totally going to use that suggestion next time I do
a strophic piece with the choir.
(34:50):
That's brilliant.
I mean, I've done fairings of it, but what you just stated was so much better than the
way that I've said it.
So thank you.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead, Dan.
I cut you off.
I was going to reflect from kind of a interdisciplinary nature here.
My studies here at the University of Arizona were largely about ethnomusicology.
The book that really turned me on to ethnomusicology is a book called How Musical is Man by a
(35:14):
gentleman named John Blacking.
The entire thesis of the book is that music is a reflection of human relationships.
That's what it is.
That it reflects who we are in relation to one another.
And it can't be looked at aside from that.
I think that's what Tom was getting at the end of his.
That music is important, but really this is a human activity first and foremost.
(35:39):
And to just hear that expressed so beautifully in that kind of quirky story.
I mean the cyclops and the hair beret and 25 years go by, wow, what a great thing.
But it was a joy to hear him reflect on how enduring this, that the friendship was so
strong that 25 years later they found another way to collaborate together musically, which
is just a great thing.
And I really am grateful to hear how you, you know, good choral pedagogy is about on
(36:08):
some level empowering these kinds of relationships to form and to give them space.
And to hear you talk about it in the way that you are bringing it to choirs is really lovely.
Yeah.
So thanks for listening and reflecting.
Any closing thoughts that you'd like to share with our podcast audience about choral music
(36:31):
and its importance, its beauty?
I would say to allow choral music to come out of the box.
So when we think about choral music, we think about folks standing up in concert black,
holding music folders, singing a particular type of music.
But I would encourage any kind of group singing you can think of as choral music, whether
(36:57):
it's a community singing or singing with your family or friends or watching a YouTube video
with the sheet music going across and you all just, I mean, all of that encourages those
same, these same kind of moments in your community.
So just try.
(37:17):
Don't constrain yourself from your preconception about what a choir is to letting you tap into
some of the stuff that we're talking about.
Absolutely.
Well, that's a great closing thought.
So Dr. M. Nicole Davis, Nicole of the University of Arizona School of Music, thanks so much
for being our guest today here on Lifetimes of Listening.
Thank you so much.
(37:37):
Thanks for having me.
So there's another episode of Lifetimes of Listening.
Thanks so much for listening today with us as we've had this wonderful conversation.
(38:01):
Now if you haven't done so already, we'd like you to invite you to follow or subscribe to
this podcast on your favorite podcast app.
We hope you'll also consider participating in our project by telling us your story.
We're extremely grateful for the more than 180 people who've recorded a story for the
Arizona Musical Memory Archive.
(38:21):
It's allowing us to better understand the ways people value music.
And if you haven't visited our website at musicalmemories.music.arizona.edu, please
do so because there you'll find full length interviews like the ones that we have shared
here today.
And at that website you can also submit, if you'd like, a musical memory of your own via
(38:43):
a sound file, an essay, a poem, even an illustration of some sort, or suggest someone who you know,
who you think might want to share their musical memory with us.
And that website is musicalmemories.music.arizona.edu.
I'm Dan Cruz.
And I'm Brian Moon.
Thanks for listening.
(39:06):
The executive producer of Lifetimes of Listening, the Arizona Musical Memory podcast is Brian
Moon.
The program is produced and edited by Dan Cruz.
The Lifetimes of Listening website was created by Cynthia Barlow, principal information technology
manager with the University of Arizona School of Music.
(39:27):
Music is from zapsplat.com and from pixabay.com.
Special thanks to the University of Arizona School of Music and the UA College of Fine
Arts for their continued support of the Lifetimes of Listening Musical Memory Archive and this
podcast.
For more information and to get involved in our research, visit musicalmemories.music.arizona.edu.
(39:53):
This is Lifetimes of Listening, the Arizona Musical Memory podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.