When Daan Roosegaarde speaks of light, he's not talking about lumens or lux—he's describing a language that shapes human experience. "I see light as a language," he explains. "What do people remember when they wake up the next morning? That's what I want to design." This conversation reveals the mind of one of today's most innovative creators, whose work defies categorisation across art, architecture, technology, and environmental activism.
Daan's journey from fine arts student to founder of Studio Roosegaarde illustrates the power of hybrid thinking in solving complex problems. His Rotterdam-based studio creates experiences that challenge our relationship with technology and nature—from electricity-generating dance floors to the world's largest outdoor air purifier. But it's his work with bioluminescence that truly captures the imagination.
The discussion delves into his current passion: breeding fireflies that communicate through synchronised light patterns as part of their mating ritual. With these insects disappearing due to light pollution and pesticides, his team has established the world's first breeding program. Similarly, his work with glowing flowers allows humans to see what butterflies naturally perceive through ultraviolet light. These projects represent what he calls "super nature"—learning from natural phenomena to create new forms of human experience.
Perhaps most striking is Roosegaarde's "Seeing Stars" project, where he convinced entire cities to turn off every light for one night. "I think it's unacceptable that we live in a world where we talk about AI and self-driving cars and blockchain, but we don't see the stars anymore," he argues. "That's not a smart city. You see the stars in a smart city."
The conversation explores AI's role in design, with Daan embracing it as a creative tool while emphasising that our uniquely human qualities—emotional intelligence, creativity, and comfort with failure—become more valuable as technology advances. "We just got to be better humans. That's the best solution," he concludes.
Whether discussing his glowing Van Gogh bicycle path, developing biodegradable fireworks, or his philosophy on sharing ideas freely, Daan demonstrates why innovation requires us to change perspective. As he puts it, "When you change your perspective, everything changes." What would you create if you saw the world differently?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
No doubt about it.
So that means that we have tofocus on the skills we have as
human beings, that computers androbots do not have an emotional
intelligence, a creative,accepting fear, accepting
failure.
So we just got to be betterhumans.
That's the best solution.
Take the idea of a glowing tree.
I'm sure there are many peoplethere are people out there who
(00:21):
had that idea, right, okay,great, but having an idea is
sort of everything, but it'slike nothing, right?
Because you don't own an idea,you have to surrender to it and
you've got to feed it with allyour love, time, money and
energy, and the idea will takeyou to a place you've never been
before, and that's sort ofreally cool, but also really
(00:43):
scary, right?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Dan, welcome to Light Talk Morning.
Yeah, it's morning for both ofus.
You're in Bali, I'm inAustralia, so it's roughly in
the same time zone.
It doesn't happen often that Italk to people in the same time
zone, but in this case it's goodListen.
I would like to start by givingthe audience a little insight
(01:15):
on your journey where you aretoday, a little bit about, well,
basically, from when you wereborn, what you studied and what
brought you to create StudioRosengarten.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
All right, you want me to do 10 seconds, 1 minute, 1
hour or 10 hours?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Up to you.
Up to you, nice.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
You know that with Bachmunderstufuller, right, the
godfather of the Jurassic Dome,and he would give lectures for 8
, ten, sometimes 12 hours.
Um, you can still view them inthe in the national library of
canada and it's and, and thepeople state you know, I'm not
suggesting we're going to dothat now, uh, and I'm not
comparing me with him, of course, but the idea that it's sort of
(02:00):
free and the content decidesthe format is something that
always inspired me.
So, you know, people ask me areyou a designer, an architect,
an innovator, an entrepreneur, ascientist?
I'm like, yes, right, I think Idon't want to define what I
want to explore.
I studied fine arts, did amaster in architecture.
(02:22):
A lot of people telling me whatI want is not possible, and
somehow, through the years, yourealize that it's your job to
prove them wrong.
Right, and so I'm runningdesign firms based in Rotterdam
team of designers, engineers,project managers.
(02:42):
We have another place in Baliwhere we're focusing on the
glowing garden, more the supernature project, because nature
loves to grow here, breedingfireflies, trying to bring them
back as they are at the point ofdisappearing, and basically
working on a world that glows,but from day one.
(03:02):
We love using technology.
We love collaboration, we loveusing technology, we love
collaboration, we love science.
But it's in the end, it's aboutthe, the interaction and the
feeling it gives to you.
So when I work with light, it'snot per se, you know, about Lux
or or Lumen or lot or all thesekinds of things.
I'm more like when I, when Iuse light, I see it as a
(03:25):
language, right.
So I think like, okay, so Icreate something.
Somebody goes there, right, andhe or she experienced something.
They go to bed, they go home,they go to bed, they dream.
The next morning they wake up,what do they remember?
Right?
And that's where I want to be,that's what I want to design,
and sometimes it's a material wespend years on developing
(03:46):
ourselves super high tech.
Some it's an existing principlefrom nature that's been around
for hundreds, maybe millions ofyears.
But it's great to have an ideaand let the idea guide you to a
place you've never been before.
And so we never, we never copypaste, but we always copy more,
(04:10):
right, we, we, we, we, um.
So, maybe, to conclude, we've,we've done, uh, a dance floors
that produce electricity whenyou dance on it, the first
sustainable dance floor.
Uh, we were part of the design.
Uh it the first sustainabledance floor.
We were part of the design.
We built the world's largestsmoke vacuum cleaner that that
sucks up polluted air, making anair park.
We've recently launched thebiodegradable fireworks called
(04:33):
spark and um.
Right now we're working hard onthe glowing garden, on real
flowers that you see behind me,the orchid nursery that glow
from within themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So yeah, we'll get to those projects in a little
while I.
I wanted to also understand youwanted.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You wanted an introduction, so that's, that's
yeah I know perfect, it'sperfect.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
There's no, there's no fixed rule how this chat is
going to go oh yeah, but I waswondering.
I was wondering the triggerthat that brought you from fine
arts to what you're doing today,because it's not a logical
sequence.
Something must have triggeredyou and say, oh, this is the
direction I want to go.
I mean, you told me about yourinnovative spirit.
(05:17):
No for answer, and I got this,this is cute.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, this is my best friend, yeah okay, we all need
a best friend yeah, yeah, um, no, I mean the, the logic.
Well, I mean I.
I think the whole traditionalthinking of linear thinking like
ab, d is restraining us ashuman beings and actually the
(05:47):
biggest challenges we have rightnow on a global scale are not
will not be fixed by linearthinking, right?
So you gotta be a hybrid.
You've gotta connect differentworlds, different thinking,
collaborate, invent.
So I think it's more aboutdesigning the missing link
(06:07):
between worlds or betweendisciplines, rather than
sticking to what you know and so80% of what I'm doing now I was
never educated, for like threeyears ago, when you came to work
on Glowing Garden, I couldn'teven keep my house plant alive.
And now it's so funny when youstart growing things.
I'm a tech guy.
(06:28):
I know about microchips, c++.
I read the magazines.
I know what's playing in thatworld.
So interesting the first timeyou start to grow a flower.
In the beginning, it's like youremember when you were a kid,
but you didn't know how to readyet, right?
And you're holding this book andbut you didn't know how to read
yet, right, and you're holdingand you're like, in a couple of
(06:49):
months I will know what, what'sthe story, what it's as, but but
you don't know yet.
Somehow, you, you sort of knew,right and I think that's with a
, with a plant and a flower aswell that now I can look at a
flower and I can see less water,more sun or it's stressed, or
we need to fertilize it or justleave it alone, and in the
beginning you don't know.
(07:09):
So I love growing things andit's also when you work with
nature I think you sort ofrealize that sort of God creates
.
We just modify it, so thenotion of control becomes an
illusion and and you but you cansort of nudge it, you can sort
of massage it into trying to bea little bit different and learn
(07:33):
from it.
So no, to answer your question,I believe in making these links
and being an amateur trying tobecome an expert and infiltrate
in different disciplines, and Ithink that's also where I create
my most value, right, beingthat happy infiltrator and being
(07:53):
different and asking stupidquestions and not realizing that
something is not possible, doyou?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
prefer people to call you a creator or an innovator?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Whatever, honestly, I'm already happy when they
spell my name correctly.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It's really difficult .
Well, I have to say, even myname, which is super common in
Dutch, obviously, class.
You would be surprised how manypeople spell it wrongly with
one A and two S's.
It's always like that um but um, no.
So so you, you have a lot ofinteresting projects and quite a
(08:33):
lot of them involve lighting.
Right, and, and I wonder, atone point of time, you, you
started to really get intriguedabout lighting and how that
would I mean.
Lighting for us is magic, we,we, as, like I'm a lighting
designer and, uh, sometimes it'snot about the technology but
about the experience of lighting, what it creates, the thing
(08:54):
that it does to your emotions,um, and I, I guess that that's
also what probably triggered youin in starting to use lighting
in your projects.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Well, absolutely.
And I remember, you know,working when I was doing, when I
was studying fine arts a longtime ago, I would use clay and
wood and I somehow I love theprocess of creation, taking an
abstract idea and drag it intomateriality, but at the same
time, materials felt so, sorough and so stubborn and so, so
(09:26):
rigid.
And then I remember, you know,playing with really simple
spotlights and trying to playwith shadows and light and the
sort of the interference peoplewould have as they would walk
through.
Uh, and, and I love that it's.
It's basically a material,right, not 100%, but it's almost
nothing like if you look at itfrom a factual, material point
(09:49):
of view.
But therefore, it's everythingright.
It can change your mood, it cantrigger you, it attracts right.
I think that's one of the mostintriguing elements of life.
Come on, you put a spotlight ona square, square, wop.
People like right, like it's,it's so beginning.
You know you experiment andthere are like effects that you
(10:11):
like.
But as you sort of evolve youyou realize, hey, you can, you
can tell stories with it right,like the catholic church, the,
the stainless windows, and likethe the building was building,
is telling stories of light andmesmerizing.
I'm not preaching any religionhere, but the Catholic Church
(10:34):
was one of the masters ofunderstanding the power of light
and storytelling.
But anyway, back to the journeyI was in, and so once, for
example, when we did Waterlicht,these blue waves floating above
your head, showing that climatechange is real, showing rising
(10:56):
sea level is coming or couldhappen if we don't take care of
our dikes, our windmills, ourpumps, like in the Netherlands A
virtual flood of water, raisingawareness of a world that is
changing, but also showing thepower and the poetry of living
with water and sort of fightingagainst it or learning from it.
And then suddenly it becomes anemotional story, a social story
(11:19):
.
I think that's to me the mostfascinating.
That's to me the mostfascinating, and right now I'm
mostly focused in existing light.
Right, so we're breedingfireflies.
That's interesting.
How long does it take for afirefly to be born?
From egg to larva, to firefly?
(11:39):
No idea.
Give me a number.
I should have done my own work.
I, I also did it.
Now, what do you think like?
What's your best guess?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
it's probably quite fast, give me another, uh, a
month more no, no, two months,no, 10 months, 10 months, okay,
okay.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
And a firefly lives?
How long?
Maybe shorter?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
than that.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, give me a number, it doesn't matter,
there's no right or wrong.
Two months, 22 days, probablyless, 32 days, like a butterfly.
So they're very I also didn'tknow.
So they're fragile, they're atthe point of disappearing.
They're magical, right, theluciferine in their body, um,
and what's also interesting isthat light is their language,
(12:29):
and what I mean by that.
It's not a metaphor, but it'svery physical.
So the blinking females low onthe ground blink slowly and the
male is up in the air and blinksusually a bit faster, but when
they like each other, they startto synchronize.
So you can see when they'resort of making out.
Right, I'm trying to use acomfortable word for everyone,
(12:54):
but you know what I mean, Iunderstand, I understand, and so
that's why the light pollutionin countries is so horrible for
them, because then they can'tfind each other.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So they're literally lost.
Is that also part of thereproduction process?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
what you just described.
Yeah, of course, when they'resynchronizing, it's part of the
mating process, so you can seethey're getting action tonight,
right, basically, and even theeggs glow, the tiny, tiny eggs.
Eggs, they glow, yeah,afterwards.
So that's why they'redisappearing because of the
light pollution, because of thepesticide, because of the and
(13:33):
the complexity of of being born,so to speak.
Um, so we started the world'sfirst breeding program to bring
them back.
So there's a team of four boyright behind me, uh, hand fed.
They're hand feeding them everytwo days, and right now we have
the first home-born uh,fireflies.
(13:53):
Uh, here and um, building up anew colony, and nobody's ever
done that before.
You know, like, if you so, soglowing algae.
We found a way to make beachesglow.
I have glowing trees here,glowing flowers.
So I'm really interested inthis sort of super nature of
learning from nature and usingthat to learn from it, to
(14:16):
preserve it, but also to bringit back into our daily life, in
our human life.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Is that what we call bioluminescence?
Yeah, it's one of them.
Is that what we?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
call bioluminescence.
Yeah, it's one of them.
You have bioluminescence, youhave fluorescence, you have
phosphoryl.
There are different ways, butthat sort of is the umbrella and
the application that we'relosing it for.
Besides that, they'reincredibly beautiful and it's
fun and emotional to work on it,right Like when I see your
firefly.
It just makes me happy, right?
I don't know why Everyone I'mshowing the Firefly garden here.
(14:50):
It doesn't matter if it was abillionaire or like a famous
actor or you know whomeversigned it.
They all become kid again.
I can see it happening yeah yeah, yeah, they go back to their
kids, which is interesting tosee.
Um, but it's part of ecotourism.
You know, I think it's a bigdiscussion all around the world
(15:11):
how you can create um tourismwhich is good for the
environment, not just bad andnot damaging, but actually
contributing.
Yes, so making a firefly gardenwhere the you know people can
have a dinner or or drinks andand contribute to the, to the
science and the breeding processand to sort of bring them back
and share that knowledge allaround the world.
(15:32):
So I'm really interested increating new environments where
people can experience that supernature and also contributes to
to the well-being on a largerscale, and but that's got to be
designed so that's your, yourfirefly.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
What about the glowing garden?
Is that a different sort ofbioluminescence, or is it?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
yeah, yeah.
So actually flowers alreadyglow for insects like a
butterfly.
So when you, when you look atlight right in the scientific,
so this is light, this, this isso you.
So this is the element, this isthe part you and I see the red
blue, the white part, we is thepart.
You and I see the red blue, thewhite part.
We have the higher frequenciesand lower frequencies that go
beyond our spectrum, like the UVand infrared Exactly the UV and
(16:12):
the infrared, yeah, but lightis like we put light back into
RGB, but that's, of course,insane, right, there's a
multiple of diversity butdifferent topics.
So if you look at the spectrumof light, you and I see the
white light, so to speak.
Insects see a part ofultraviolet light that you and I
(16:32):
can't see.
So we re-engineered thatspecific wavelength in the lab
and the moment you start to addthat to certain types of flowers
, they start to glow, and sowe're not changing the flower,
it's not GMO, it's not likeyou're adding.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I was thinking he's adding some ultraviolet light or
something to get it to glow,but that's not what's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, I mean, it's a specific wavelength and you need
specific flowers and they needto be happy.
That's really important.
And what's interesting is thatactually you see the world
through the eyes of a butterfly,right, you sort of see what
they're seeing.
Yes, of course, yes, okay, notif you want to be really, you
know, a bean counter.
(17:16):
Of course the eye of abutterfly has many triangle
shapes, so you're not literallyseeing, but it is as the closest
.
I understand the point yes,shape, so you're not literally
seeing, but it is as the closest.
I understand and and and I lovethat that that you know.
You sort of you change yourperspective as a designer and
you like, when I design afirefly garden, I don't think
(17:37):
about you and you and you andand the visitors.
I think about them.
What do they want, want whatmakes them happy?
You know which plants do theylike, which kind of water, et
cetera.
So you reposition yourself as adesigner and you start to
design from there and that sortof forces you to have a sort of
humbleness or a sort ofdifferent tactic or a different
(17:59):
strategy, and that's really funas well.
So I would encourage everydesigner, using light or not
light, to sort of positionyourself in a place you're
unfamiliar with, which is also abit uncomfortable, right,
because like, yeah, you don'tknow it yet, but it really helps
you to push the design andcreate something new.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Was the Van Gogh bypass the first sort of
exploration into this sort ofbioluminescence?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean it started with almost10 years ago.
We're getting old.
We got the request from the VanGogh Foundation and Van Gogh
lived in the Netherlands, rightIn Nuenen, in Eindhoven, 1883 to
1885.
Then went to France, made thefamous Starry Night, etc.
(18:50):
But the Van Gogh Foundationwanted to celebrate its 125th
anniversary in the Netherlandsand somehow we became in contact
, in collaboration also withHyman, the infrastructure
company who at that time we werebuilding and designing the
smart highways with, and so theyasked me a very simple question
(19:12):
, which I loved, which can youmake something to make him feel
alive again?
Right, and it's really cool.
So you take this really famouspainter that everybody knows and
then, and how can you make himalive again?
So what I did is like a goodjournalist.
I followed his footsteps.
You know where did he live,where did so?
What I did is like a goodjournalist.
I followed his footsteps.
You know where did he live,where did he hang out, when did
he have a beer, where did hemake his painting?
And we found this beautifulbicycle path in a nature area
(19:34):
and sort of not in the middle ofnowhere, but it's like, you
know, like there's not that muchgoing on in the evening right,
it's quite it, not that muchgoing on in the evening.
Right, it's a bit of nowhere,but it's beautiful words in my
mouth.
But uh, like you know, it'slike it's not.
It's not a hot spot.
You won't have thousands ofpeople there every night now you
do.
But, um, yeah, and, and wefound this bicycle where we sort
(19:59):
of know he lived and worked, hewalked these grounds right, and
so then the idea came up tosort of using a neat phosphor
and materials that would chargeat daytime and glow at night,
and that we would take hisstarry night and sort of embed
it into that landscape as atribute to his famous works, but
(20:19):
also as a sort of very concreteproposal for roads that are
sustainable, that charge at daytime and glow at night.
So, again, making this linkbetween history and future,
between practical and poetry,between a road infrastructure
company and an artist, sodesigning this link.
And it's a 700-meter bicyclepath, not huge budget, but still
(20:43):
today the most publicizedbicycle path in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
It sort of puts you on the map a bit with that
project.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I do know that I had after the launch so many
interviews like BBC Roy to CNNthat even after three, four days
I was tired of hearing my ownvoice.
That says a lot Like you know,you have to talk so much that
after a while you're just like,okay, now I'm, you know like
(21:12):
Radiohead, the song Creep, youknow they're not on the internet
anymore.
I know it definitely resonatedwith a large audience and I
think it's also.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I mean that's when I first heard about you.
To be honest, cool Through thatproject.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I mean, we're still proud of it, but I think it also
it hit a nerve because itshowed that if you create a
sense of place right, if youcreate a place that is
activating something you know,history, future and even it's
interesting um, a lot ofteenagers go there, uh, on their
(21:52):
first date.
So first they go to the bigcinema in in eindhoven and then
after that they go there and dothe things they do on the first
date.
I don't want to know about that, but I gave a talk in denbos a
couple of months ago, which issort of nearby, and then one of
the one of these sort of nervous, uh students came to me and
said, yeah, he, he, he asked meto be, uh, his girlfriend on
(22:15):
that spot.
So it's like, yeah, so so Imean again, it's not about the
technology, it's about what dopeople do there, and I do think
it also is a good example of afuture world where technology is
jumping out of the computerscreen right, and the world is
(22:38):
an interface of information, ofhistory, of energy, and light is
a beautiful tool for that, inan emotional but also in a
functional way.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean, I worked with Philips in my
earlier days and I rememberreally at that time, we were
talking about bioluminescence,in terms of making trees glow,
so we don't need streetlights,and these kind of ideas.
And still today, I thinkPhilips or Signifiers they're
called today they're still verymuch researching all this, and
(23:09):
maybe you have relationshipswith them in that field.
I don't know, but it'scertainly something that you
know.
If you are environmentallyconscious, like you have really
moved into that area as well,being very environmentally
conscious of what's happening inthe world and also in terms of
(23:31):
sustainable energy usage,absolutely yeah and we have a
glowing tree right behind me.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So we've found a way to.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
We should have had this discussion at night then.
But yeah, way, uh, we shouldhave had this, this discussion,
at night then.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
But yeah, you, actually we should have yeah, uh
, so no, and I and you're, Ithink also, you know, maybe, if
I can address that like um, likephilips and signify are
companies, right, uh, which isfine, right, that's, that's cool
, uh, but I think we're also acompany, but we're sort of.
(24:10):
We're sort of, uh, being acompany is sort of like a jacket
you put on just to operateright, to not be naked, but but
we are idea driven, not moneydriven, right, so it's really we
spend way too much money, timeand energy on ideas without the
clients, without a clear focusgroup or whatever you want to
(24:33):
call it, or what's the KPI orwhatever you know, like, it's
sort of like what we do is like,if we create something that we
think is cool as a design team,the chance that there's somebody
out there in the, in the restof the world, that also agrees
with that, quite big right,because we're critical and we've
seen things, and so I thinkit's really important to you
(24:54):
know, sometimes people say Ihave an idea.
Right, take the idea of aglowing tree.
I'm sure there are many peoplethere's therapists out there who
had that idea right, okay,great, but having an idea is
sort of everything, but it'slike nothing, right, because you
gotta, you gotta, you don't ownan idea.
You have to surrender to it andyou gotta feed it with all your
love, time, money and energyand the idea will take you to a
(25:17):
place you've never been before.
And that's sort of really cool,but also really scary, right,
because it's like uncomfortable.
So that's how you know, you,when you have a good idea, it's
uncomfortable, and so that's whyit's really important.
That's why, indeed, I foundedthe studio that sure, we have
paying clients, right?
You see, uh, crazy billionaires, government, you name it but I
(25:41):
always take like 30 or 40% ofthe profit we make, and I don't
buy a new car or a speedboat formyself, but I kickstart my own
projects, right.
So we fund our own project inorder to keep growing, to keep
trying, to keep failing, to keepexperimenting.
And in the beginning there arealways people who say, oh, it's
not possible or it's not allowed, but in the end they say, oh, I
(26:05):
also had that idea.
But so I think it's importantto put the process of creation
central on everything you do,and the rest is the rest.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
But that's right up your alley.
Like you said at the beginning,I don't take no for an answer.
So, with your passion and yourdrive that is probably a trigger
to if somebody says no, it'snot possible, is to dive into it
and show them it is possible.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, yeah, well, I mean, like, what I usually do is
, when people say no, I say okay, the scale from zero to ten.
Is it like no or is it like no,no, no, no, no, no, no.
What are we talking about?
How strict of a no is it Goahead Sometimes?
(26:53):
The no is, sometimes no is no.
I get it.
It's important, I think, inevery process when you make a
decision, is it based on fear oris it based on curiosity?
Right, so something isphysically not possible, that's
a no.
But sometimes you say nobecause you're hesitant or
(27:14):
you're scared, and to sort ofchallenge that somebody and say,
but maybe you do want it, ormaybe if we change this and this
, you know, no becomes yes, andthat's a journey.
And so that's why we're verycritical in the project that we
accept or we deny, because everyclient or collaboration with it
is like a platonic.
(27:36):
But it is a relationship, right, it is.
It is a journey where youchallenge each other and and you
remember that time in uh designweek in eindhoven where they
had okay, that's a famous designawards, etc.
But they also had an award forthe best client oh, oh, yeah.
No, I can't remember yeah yeah,yeah, I found that, but it was
(27:56):
so interesting because, indeed,we sort of under.
It's always the designer right,oh yeah, but awesome.
But I think the interaction Ihave with my clients and the way
they challenge me and theysomehow, sorry for my French,
bust my balls right, excuse-moi,or I challenge them, that
(28:17):
creates the magic, that createsthe excellence, and so I would,
in the design principle, thedesign scene in principle, would
you know, like benefit tohighlight that interaction is
part of the film.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
I think that's really critical and I think one of my
best memories of my client is apicture that I have of him, with
him and me hugging each other,and I think it may sound strange
, but it was this mutual feelingof respect and appreciation.
(28:57):
You know, a client who fullyaccepted and appreciated what I
had to bring to the table, andlikewise my appreciation to him
for respecting my skills andgoing with it.
And I think these are thingsthat are super, super important.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
And I remember that when we worked with Hermes in
Ginza, in Tokyo and working inJapan, especially Ginza,
everything is regulated everymillimeter, and we had to switch
off five streetlights to makeit dark.
In order to show light, youneed darkness, right, and so
they're sort of like, threemonths later we got four, but
(29:44):
the fifth, no Impossible.
I'm like, okay, you mean no.
Or like no, no, no, no, no.
They're like Dan San.
It's not going to happen, happen, okay.
So the next eight months, um, Iput my teeth, uh in it and
actually, because of the dutchembassy, help, we had a coffee
with somewhere high, whatever we.
(30:07):
But the time we spent on on onestreet lights being switched
off was insane and and it wasreally like like a big thing.
It became a big sort of almostlike a drama, you know, because
I was like, well, we can't open,the light is on, right, they're
like, yeah, but we already sentthe invite, right, it was sort
of.
But then they were so cool,everybody was so professional.
(30:28):
Then, after the opening, theywere like, okay, that was that
was awesome, that looked amazing, we completely understand and
we really what's next?
Right, yeah, and sort of.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
That's for me the biggest compliment that you go
through that journey with allthe ins and the outs, but you
want more and then you have tochange it, then they can see
that why you wanted it and howit really validated your, your
concept.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yeah, it wasn't diva done.
It was really, you know,creating an environment where
the work you know comes to lightand gets the interaction it
needs to have with the visitors.
But working in public space,working with light, is like
every time we do an outdoorexhibition, 80% of the
production time we're talking.
(31:16):
These are large scaleproductions and tens of people,
years of preparation.
Most of the time we spend onremoving light, having lights
switched off billboards thatburn at night, you know with BS,
or streetlights where nobody is, or gas stations fully lit when
they're closed, and so usuallyteams go in advance, make a list
(31:39):
of all the lights that need tobe switched on and we just work
our way down them.
But so I think there's a lot ofbullshit light in a city.
There's also a lot of beautifullight, but so we need to curate
our light better.
When is it telling the rightstory?
When is it meaningful?
Does it need to curate ourlight better?
You know, when is it tellingthe right story?
When is it meaningful?
Does it need to be on?
Um, but you would be surprised.
(32:00):
In a, in a so-calledsustainable society we claim to
be, that it's it's verydifficult to have light switched
off and a lot of lights areburning and nobody knows why.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Light design is also about what not to light.
You know, it's not justAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
The answer is not to put light and to sort of that
climax that kind of thinkinginto the Seeing Star project
that we've done, which startedas a sort of boyish idea like,
hey, we don't see the starsanymore, right, since 20, 30
years.
Why?
Because of the light pollution,right, the meaningless beaming
(32:39):
of BS light.
What if, for one night, wewould just switch off all the
lights?
Right, and I'm not talkingearth hour, like one hour, no,
no, no, no.
I'm talking about all the lightsLike, just like a dark zone,
and finally we found two mayorswho said the beautiful word, yes
, right, and we did it.
(33:02):
One of the largest was inLeiden, which is close to
Amsterdam, one of the most lightpolluted areas in the world.
But, martin, just the time ittook to switch lights off, we
found so many orphanage lights.
This was in collaboration withthe mayor, with the city.
The government was involved.
They needed to approve security, et cetera.
All the citizens needed to beinformed with a letter.
(33:23):
I mean it was like a huge, huge.
I still can't believe we gotaway with that one.
I still can't believe we madethat one happen.
It's incredible, but there wereso many orphanage lights, but I
mean, made that one happen.
Uh, it's incredible.
But but there were so manyorphanage lights, but I mean
they're just burning, nobodyowns them, nobody knows what
they're doing, who controls them, who takes care of them?
Um, yeah, but we did it and andas we, on 10 o'clock, we
(33:45):
switched off all the light um 10000 people in on the street,
finally, no clouds, andeverybody started to whisper and
you could see the stars aboveyour head and it was so magical
to bring that back.
I love light, but we need tocurate it in a better way.
(34:09):
I think it's unacceptable thatwe live in a world where we talk
about AI and self-driving carsand blockchain, but we don't see
the stars anymore.
That's not a smart city no, no,no no you see the stars in a
smart city.
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I just wanted to support your story because I
have a farmhouse in the south ofFrance and in that little
village which really there'shardly anybody there, we're like
maybe three, four families.
There's no streetlights,there's no shops, there's no
nothing, and at night it's likepitch dark.
But once the moon comes up andthe stars are there, you can
(34:53):
walk.
You can walk around without anystreet light whatsoever and
people don't realize that.
And I'm sometimes on the sidefor for a project, and I've got
my, my, my team members comingout with with their flash, the
torch lights or their phone tolight up the way.
See, we don't need that, justuse your eyes, don't be afraid
(35:14):
of the dark.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, and you're right.
And I mean, I think next weekis Dark Sky Week.
Yeah, right, that's next week.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
While we're talking, and it doesn't mean you have to
be completely dark.
By the time this is put on thenet, this will probably be
faster anyway.
You know what I mean.
But anyway, by the time this isput on the net, this will
probably be faster anyway, andyeah.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
But anyway, it doesn't mean you have to be
completely dark, it's just, youknow, aim it downwards, use a
certain type of color, uh,switch it off when it's not
necessary, so, and but what isinteresting if you zoom out for
a sec, um, and you talk aboutdesign and creation.
You know I'm not a religiousperson per se or like a biblical
(35:56):
person, but it is interestingif you look at Genesis, the
first book in the Bible, thefirst form of creation was light
, right, and there was light.
So it's sort of the beginning.
Again, we're not sure if ithappened in that way, but let's
just assume it.
It was the beginning ofcreation.
(36:17):
And it's interesting because howfar is the sun away from us?
How many kilometers, martin,you know this.
How many kilometers is the sunaway?
You tell me it's 480 millionkilometers away, or something
like that.
It's like really far, and theand the moon is only 850
(36:41):
kilometers, so it's quite nearby.
So when you have a full moon,of course the moon doesn't give
light, it reflects the sunlight.
So so just imagine you have theearth, then you have this.
You know, millions and millionsand millions of kilometer, sort
of nuclear explosion, right,and that light goes.
What is it Three hundredthousand kilometers per second,
(37:03):
speed of light towards the moon?
And that's why you can walk inyour garden without the torch?
I mean, that's light design,that's light design.
Yeah, that's, that's impressive, right.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's impressive.
I know Light is magical, forsure, but you mentioned AI and I
think we can't walk around itand certainly looking towards
the future, ai is already withus on a daily basis and I would
be very interested in.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh sorry, Martin, I remember it's 148 million
kilometers, or 150, not 148.
We can have Chetji, I'mlistening.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But I really want to have this discussion about AI as
well, because it's infiltratingour daily lives with a scary
speed and many, many companiesand people are starting to use
it in many different forms.
And I was wondering, in termsof you know, you talked about
(38:05):
concept creation Does AI startto play a role with you?
Because, of course, you can doyour own research, but now, with
, with the aid of ai, there maybe a lot of, uh, new
opportunities that may help thecreation process?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
absolutely no, I mean it's.
I think it's the biggestinvention since world wide web
or the iphone 100 and, uh, it'sa buddy, it's your buddy, it's
one of your best buddies.
If I would tell, if we wouldhave this interview five years
ago, maybe even three, and thatI would be here just sitting
with a MacBook on relativelyokay Indonesian Wi-Fi, I would
(38:44):
talk with robots, they wouldtalk to me, I would generate
images, I would WhatsApp them tothe printer, who would deliver
it to me next day, print it out,framed and everything full
color, and I would hang it hereon the wall.
You know, text-to-imagegeneration, mid-journey.
That sounds like the beginningof a good sci-fi movie, right?
No, it's real.
So what's interesting when youwork with AI?
(39:07):
The focus text-to-imagegeneration, the mid-journey the
only limitation is is your ownimagination, right?
So we, from day one, startedworking on it.
I spent hundreds of hours on itand you're right in the
beginning.
It gives you this weird feelingin your stomach, right, because
you're talking to the robots andthey start to understand you
and you're eating smarter andbut on the other hand, um, you
(39:32):
know, just go back to the timewhere we would spend three days
on one artist impression.
Now I have three people workingfull-time on it.
We're spending, we're producingthousands.
I'm talking about tens ofthousands of images every week.
The sheer amount and options isinsane and as you're feeding
the, you start to recognize yourpreference and the prompt.
(39:56):
It's a form of art to be aprompter, to specify the light,
specify the texture, specify thecamera, like.
It is a form of art, like themonks did from the Catholic
Church making the stainlesswindows or making the books.
So that's one.
It's a body.
(40:17):
The speeds, the preciseness isincredible.
But what we're doing is alsomaking it real, and what I mean
by that is so we make an image.
In the end, right, I send it tothe team, they make a prototype
, and then we take a photo ofthat prototype, we upload it
again into the mid-journey andwe tweak it, we work on it, so
(40:40):
we go from digital to analog,digital to analog, digital to
analog, digital to analog and inthe end it's real right.
And what I mean by real, likeit's tactile, physical
experience that you can see andtouch without tech, without a
screen or Google Glass orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So I think this jumping between the different
worlds is really interesting andyeah, is that here to stay, or
you think they're talkingnowadays about AI agents who can
do a lot of tasks for you?
Is that something that may helpyou to cross check and and
fine-tune the designs?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I, I hired already.
No, I think, two to threepeople less this year because of
ai, absolutely wow.
So that that's that.
That's, that's bad news.
In that way, it's also goodnews because you can do more,
and I think the whole discussionai good or bad now it's just
you, you being able to use it asa skill, you can do more.
(41:42):
Um, it goes back to the, to theold tradition will technology
make us more, more human or moremachine?
Right, like, like, like, uh.
I think it emphasizes that welive in a world where creativity
is, is, is our most importantskill, is our real capital,
(42:03):
because the machine I still needto tell, the machine I still
need to tune, I still need tointerpretate what the client or
the team is saying.
Right, the client says I'm aand I understand she means I
like grass, because I know her,I know what she's trying to tell
me.
Or I think we should do grassand not green.
So our human skill, our desireto learn, our desire to
(42:25):
challenge, our desire to allowourselves to fail, those will be
even more important skills tohave, because that separates us
from the robots and machines.
So, with other words, I wouldembrace it, use it as a tool.
Realize that you're still stillnever say never, we're still in
(42:47):
charge and use creativity asyour biggest capital, because
that will separate you from themachine.
That's how we find a newbalance, or we become robot food
or the character of a GeorgeOrwell book.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, I know it's carrying away because the speed
at which this developed, I meanyou can imagine that AI will be
able to understand your clientand create a narrative out of
the brief that they're evenunderstanding you will do that.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
No, we tried that in ChatGTP Grover.
It still sucks, still bad atmaking titles, still doesn't
really.
Will it still be like that intwo or three years?
I mean, if we feed it right, itcould be a buddy, but it's
still.
I think you know, never saynever, right?
(43:44):
You never know how fast thedevelopment goes.
And, yeah, in 2027, you willhave, you know, independent AI
agents which can do a lot of thetasks you and I are doing right
now.
No doubt about that, no doubtabout it.
So that means that we have tofocus on the skills we have as
human beings that computers androbots do not have, and
(44:05):
emotional intelligence, thecreative, accepting fear,
accepting failure.
So we've just got to be betterhumans.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's the best solution, I think when we talk
about all this, we have to makesure that we remain the creator
and chief and use it as ourcompanion and our co-pilot, in a
way, awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Martin.
I did it here with some kids,here for my friends.
He has two kids and they'relike five or eight years old and
I'm just sitting there okay,tell me your future, tell me,
describe me your best future.
And they're like I'm with momand dad on the beach.
I'm like, okay, are you aloneor where?
And?
And so I typed the prompts andthen we're generating their
(44:52):
images, as they're sitting nextto me visualizing their future.
And then I sent it to theprinter and the next day they
got it delivered at home.
That image is now hanging abovetheir kid's bed and it's cool
to sort of sit together andcreate their future, and they're
like whoa, is that possible?
It was so much fun.
(45:13):
It's good to be scared, but Ithink it's even better to be
curious.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
We have to embrace it , that's for sure.
You use Midjourney to do that,or are you using other tools?
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, midjourney, a variety of things.
I love the runway for the moviemaking and also maybe it's also
good to address it depends oncountry.
Europe is stuck.
It's like wind in a glass bowl.
It's not wind anymore.
Europe is just focused onregulation, while Middle East
embraces it, and Asia as well alittle bit.
Just to give you an example,I'm Dutch, right, I love my
(45:47):
country, don't get me wrong, butthere was a House of Parliament
discussion and you can followonline for around an hour
talking about the price increaseof stamps at Postenel.
So the stamp would increase for8%.
People use free stamps per year.
A stamp is one euro and they'relike.
It's a shame and you shouldn'tdo that.
(46:08):
One Martin, one hour, the topgovernment official talking
about stamps, while Middle Eastlaunched a department, a
ministry of artificialintelligence, spending hundreds
of millions of euros in.
So in Europe we're going totalk about stamps for an hour
(46:29):
and Middle East is justlaunching ministries.
About it, guess who's going towin, and that worries me to be
miniseries about it.
Guess who's going to win.
And that worries me.
To be honest, I'm serious thatthere's no plan, there's no
vision, there's no real urgencyor curiosity, and then we just
become wind in a glass bottle.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
It's a bit surprising , but it brings up the topic of
regulation, standardizations andintellectual property
protection.
Um, that's typically something.
I don't know how you look atthat, but, um, a lot of creators
obviously are worried about howto protect their intellectual
property rights.
(47:08):
What's?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
your good reason, yeah, yeah, for good reason I
mean yeah, no, no, for sure Ithink it.
It comes down to the point youwant to defend what you have,
you want to explore what'scoming.
You know, like, like, like sure, you know designers should be
paid for their work, right, andshould get a get a fee or a
license or something like that.
(47:31):
It should be equal.
Right now, indeed, it's justall sucked up in the big robot,
you can basically accessanything.
Martin, if you Google on now.
It was so funny.
They had, I think, in Warsaw, amasterclass on the university
Midjourney the new work of DanRosegard.
(47:51):
Every week they take a famousartist and they try to use
Midjourney to create their newartworks.
A masterclass, and somehow thiswas forward to me, so they
shared the result.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
With your permission.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
No, no, no, they just used Midjourney, but you can
prompt it in the style of DanRosegard.
And they sent the result and80% was bad, but 20 was actually
.
I'm like what that's?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
that's not bad.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
I mean, I would hire you I would hire you like you
would be hired, yeah, if youwant to.
But, uh, so on one hand it's alittle bit, like you know,
annoying and irritating what areyou doing on the hand?
it is fascinating that peoplewho don't know me I don't know
them can sort of predict whatI'm working on next, right, I
think if you zoom out.
(48:40):
We're all part of an ecosystem,right, and we're feeding the
ecosystem with our ideas, andI'm proud of that.
If I walk into a fine artacademy in the Netherlands, I
see one of my works in a shittyblack, white photocopy uh,
printed, hanging on the wall.
You know, like I'm part of thatmental map and and I'm I'm
excited about that, so I don't.
(49:02):
Overall, I'm like it.
It shows that we're allconnected.
We're part of a network.
Um, we have to invest in newideas and new designs to survive
, and that's the biggeststrategy.
Trying to restrain or restrictit is not going to help.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
It will be very difficult yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
To summarize yeah, designers should get paid if
their work is being used 100%.
But also, let's just take alittle bit of a chill pill about
it and think forward instead ofholding on.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah it and think forward instead of holding on.
I heard I was listening to apodcast about AI and one guy was
suggesting that the moment youtype in somebody's name, that
automatically triggers acopyright action.
What exactly wasn't specified,but like okay, if someone says,
(49:54):
boom, you know you're using hisintellectual property.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
It's such old school economy.
You know like even you knowcopyright of photos, the old
architectural firms.
You have to pay if you want touse their photos right For
publication.
From day one, when I was a fineart student, I was like no,
please, here's the present, Useit for free.
The more you share it, it'sbetter for everyone.
I don't want you to paper it, Iwant you to share it.
(50:22):
I don't want you to share it alot because somewhere, somehow,
more people see it.
They will be triggered and ifthey want the real thing, the
original thing, they'll come tome and the other people just
make weird copycats.
And it's also okay.
It makes the real more real.
It's fine, just relax.
(50:44):
Keep making new work, keeplearning, keep pushing, keep
being two steps ahead.
That's your value and being so.
You know like it's like whenyou.
It's like it's the same inprivate relationship If you're
dating a boy or girl.
You know if you start doingthat behavior, it's the same in
private relationship If you'redating a boy or girl.
You know if you start doingthat behavior, it's not going to
last very long, right, ifyou're just like yeah no, I've
(51:08):
always been big on sharing.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
I love sharing my knowledge and my expertise with
others, and but I also knowpeople that don't want to do
that because they feel they'recreating competition or whatever
it is.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
I think you grow from sharing and to me it's a very,
very positive thing.
And, martin, if there's an AIagent down, rosegard, fine.
I just take my dog to the beachevery morning and bye.
Nice, retired at 45.
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Good luck.
What about confidentiality?
Because sometimes we are in aspace where we work Awesome Good
luck.
What about confidentiality?
Because sometimes we are in aspace where we work where
there's some sort ofconfidentiality between you and
your client and you still wantto use AI.
That sometimes is a bit of achallenge.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Well, definitely, if you're designing something, you
need to create a place that issafe, and what I mean by that is
, especially in the beginning,an idea is right, so it needs to
be protected, it needs to benourished, it needs to grow.
So having an environment in thestudio where where ideas can
flow freely and you canexperiment freely with ideas and
prototype is super important.
(52:16):
And once it's sort of matureand and and well thought of and
from different perspectives, youcan share it with the rest of
the world.
So the whole notion of sharingeverything that is now.
You need to incubate your spacefirst.
After that, yeah sure.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Do you think designers should declare their
use of AI, just in the spirit oftransparency?
Because I do know some peopleuse it, but you can sort of
guess, but they don't really sayit.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Well, I think it would be a good thing to sort of
educate people for now.
But I see it.
I see immediately if somethingis AI or not.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, but you're an experienced AI user, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
No, and I think what's the problem?
I would vouch for it in thetime being, because it's a
problem that people become verydistrustful of what they see Is
this a real gas photo or not?
From the war images.
So the problem is, if peoplestart to distrust what's on the
(53:30):
screen, they hide more in theirown bubble.
So the desire to interact, tolearn, to be open becomes
minimalized, and that's a badthing because then we become
robots.
Right, our vision, ourperspective becomes tooized, and
that's a bad thing, becausethen we become robots right
Exactly.
Our vision, our perspectivebecomes too narrow, but at the
(53:50):
same time, martin, I think itwill re-emphasize a renaissance
of nature.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
When I look at a firefly here.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
When I look at a firefly and I show it to people,
they get emotional, right,because it's real, it was born.
We fed it for four months everytwo days with meal worms that
we have to breed ourselves, andokay, and we have to figure it
out how.
And it's a real, it's nature.
We can't control it, we canjust let it emerge, um, so, so I
(54:22):
think we live in a time wherewe go back to nature and
appreciate nature more and more.
As this AI revolution is goingon, as always, there will be
different movements finding anew balance.
But to end on that note, we dohave to renegotiate our
relationship with technology.
(54:42):
Right now, we're feeding ourrobots with our our time, our
money, our love, our passion,our ideas, and all we get back
is a likey, a facebook, likeyour instagram.
That's a bad deal.
That is a bad deal.
So we do have to renegotiateour interaction and if it's fair
or not, or if it's contributingor activating, and I think at
(55:06):
the moment not.
So, yeah, there needs to besome work out there.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
I want to have a quick chat also about Lux
Futurum.
We have invited you as akeynote speaker in Shanghai in
China later this year, where LuxFuturum for those who don't
know it's a recognition programfor innovative ideas, new
concepts, new projects, allembodying the future, we hope.
(55:37):
And you obviously embody thespirit of Lux Futurum and that's
why we have invited you tospeak and share your ideas.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
For somebody who was kicked out of finance school
twice, that's a real compliment.
I finally fit somewhere Finally.
It took me 45 years.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
You definitely earned it and we look forward to you
presenting what are yourthoughts about this whole luxury
room that we developed and howthat could contribute to the
future of lighting design.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Well, I mean, it's really good that you put people
from a certain discipline, thelight industry, together and
exchange Right.
And I think the goal of theconference or at least the
reason why I'm coming, or why Ithink I'm coming is to sort of
trigger them and tease them inopening up their perspective of
what lights could be and can be,and to sort of share and show
(56:37):
what is possible and the impactthat can have, and not to
suggest it's like easy, but alsoshow people that journey.
How do you go from idea torealization?
How do you trigger clients toapproach and have the guts to do
new things?
Right?
And I always go back to like500 years ago.
(57:00):
You and I, if we would have thisconversation, we most likely
would have thought the, theearth was the, the center of the
universe, right, and all thestars would rotate around us,
right.
And and we liked that idea,right, we were in control, we
really liked that idea.
And then suddenly hadileo cameand he said no, you're living in
(57:22):
a lie, right?
Actually the Earth is turningaround the sun, 148 million
kilometers away from here.
And the Catholic Church at thattime the biggest institution
really didn't like that idea.
So they grounded him for therest of his life, like he could
not leave his house for the restof his life just because he had
an idea.
And then Copernicus came andKepler, and it proved he was
(57:45):
right.
But we still, martin, todaycall it sunset, sunrise,
although it's not true.
It took us 500 years, and westill haven't fully accepted it,
to go from that we are thecenter perspective to our no,
we're actually turning aroundthe sun.
(58:06):
I'm not suggesting I'm aGalileo, by the way, just for
the record.
but so to change yourperspective is everything
because, if you look at thingsin a different way, it changes
everything your relationship,your value system, your words,
right.
And so I hope the confidencethat we'll have on a maybe on a
(58:29):
bigger scale, but even on asmaller scale, but on a certain
scale, you know what I mean Like, like, like, helps people to
change their perspective.
And because when you changeyour perspective, everything
changes, and that's reallyimportant in a time like this.
We looking in the right way?
Are we really seeing what'sreal or not, or is it just an
illusion or a sentiment of thepast we're holding on to?
Speaker 2 (58:49):
yeah, well, part of the the event is also to invite
the shortlisted winners winnersto actually give a presentation
about their work, because justseeing a picture of their work
is.
You know, it's all about sharingknowledge, education.
So we felt it was imperative tohave the winners come up
(59:13):
present and there's sort of.
Also, the incentive of thesubmission is that they'll be
invited to come to China andpresent their winning works so
that we can learn from it.
And at the same time we talkabout AI, we also put in the
sufficient form that we wantthem to declare the use of AI so
we can learn also about thatprocess.
Of what part did AI play in theidea, creation or the concept
(59:40):
or the project that you'representing to us?
Speaker 1 (59:42):
So we're looking very much forward and if you want,
and if you want, I can.
If you send all the images inadvance, I can put it all in my
mid journey and then create awhole new design from all the
winning awards.
Yeah, this was a joke.
This was a joke no, but you're.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Well, it's a joke, but it's a joke, but it's doable
.
It's feasible, becauseobviously we'll have the entry.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah yeah, let's honor the winners first.
We can do a jazz, a mid-journeyjazz party, afterwards.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
We're looking forward to have you there and much
appreciate your acceptance tocome and speak to the audience
there.
I would like to leave this chatwith giving you the floor in
terms of what do you expect interms of the future, for you as
an innovator, as an artist, butalso for the lighting community,
(01:00:40):
in terms of where are we going,what can we expect or what
would you ideally see happening?
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Well, I mean, it's a hunch, right, but there are
really interesting, veryconcrete scientific studies that
you can read in ScienceMagazine where, when two light
beams hit each other on highspeed, in very specific
circumstances, they becomematter, and so the idea is that
(01:01:13):
that's how certain stars orplanets are created, right?
And so I think we just the ideajust blows my mind, Right, you
know, right, you just then youhave something like a real thing
you can touch because of light.
And so I think we just or aNobel Prize winner of laser a
(01:01:36):
couple of years ago, like wejust scratching, barely
sketching the surface of thepotential of light, how it can
help us, how it can heal us, howit can create dimensions that
we don't know, how we can seethe world through the eyes of a
butterfly, right, while we'reactually human.
And so I wish that I and we alltogether have that open
(01:02:02):
perspective on the power oflight and keep experimenting and
keep playing with it, becauseit's going to help us, it's
going to help us as humans 100%.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I have this idea when you and I will have a drink in
Shanghai later this year, we'llbe bouncing ideas and creative
concepts with each other,because you look to me like a
person that you say one thingand then suddenly boom, you get
this idea, or something else.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
The mind is a weird thing.
The mind is a weird thing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Looking forward to it .
Thanks so much for this chat,dan, much appreciated.
Thanks, martin, and we lookforward to see you at the
Luxuryurism event.
100%.
No doubt about it.
So that means that we have tofocus on the skills we have as
human beings, that computers androbots do not have an emotional
intelligence, a creative,accepting fear, accepting
failure.
So we just got to be betterhumans.
That's the best solution.
Take the idea of a glowing tree.
I'm sure there are many peoplethere are people out there who
(00:21):
had that idea, right, okay,great, but having an idea is
sort of everything, but it'slike nothing, right?
Because you don't own an idea,you have to surrender to it and
you've got to feed it with allyour love, time, money and
energy, and the idea will takeyou to a place you've never been
before, and that's sort ofreally cool, but also really
(00:43):
scary, right?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Dan, welcome to Light Talk Morning.
Yeah, it's morning for both ofus.
You're in Bali, I'm inAustralia, so it's roughly in
the same time zone.
It doesn't happen often that Italk to people in the same time
zone, but in this case it's goodListen.
I would like to start by givingthe audience a little insight
(01:15):
on your journey where you aretoday, a little bit about, well,
basically, from when you wereborn, what you studied and what
brought you to create StudioRosengarten.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
All right, you want me to do 10 seconds, 1 minute, 1
hour or 10 hours?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Up to you.
Up to you, nice.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
You know that with Bachmunderstufuller, right, the
godfather of the Jurassic Dome,and he would give lectures for 8
, ten, sometimes 12 hours.
Um, you can still view them inthe in the national library of
canada and it's and, and thepeople state you know, I'm not
suggesting we're going to dothat now, uh, and I'm not
comparing me with him, of course, but the idea that it's sort of
(02:00):
free and the content decidesthe format is something that
always inspired me.
So, you know, people ask me areyou a designer, an architect,
an innovator, an entrepreneur, ascientist?
I'm like, yes, right, I think Idon't want to define what I
want to explore.
I studied fine arts, did amaster in architecture.
(02:22):
A lot of people telling me whatI want is not possible, and
somehow, through the years, yourealize that it's your job to
prove them wrong.
Right, and so I'm runningdesign firms based in Rotterdam
team of designers, engineers,project managers.
(02:42):
We have another place in Baliwhere we're focusing on the
glowing garden, more the supernature project, because nature
loves to grow here, breedingfireflies, trying to bring them
back as they are at the point ofdisappearing, and basically
working on a world that glows,but from day one.
(03:02):
We love using technology.
We love collaboration, we loveusing technology, we love
collaboration, we love science.
But it's in the end, it's aboutthe, the interaction and the
feeling it gives to you.
So when I work with light, it'snot per se, you know, about Lux
or or Lumen or lot or all thesekinds of things.
I'm more like when I, when Iuse light, I see it as a
(03:25):
language, right.
So I think like, okay, so Icreate something.
Somebody goes there, right, andhe or she experienced something.
They go to bed, they go home,they go to bed, they dream.
The next morning they wake up,what do they remember?
Right?
And that's where I want to be,that's what I want to design,
and sometimes it's a material wespend years on developing
(03:46):
ourselves super high tech.
Some it's an existing principlefrom nature that's been around
for hundreds, maybe millions ofyears.
But it's great to have an ideaand let the idea guide you to a
place you've never been before.
And so we never, we never copypaste, but we always copy more,
(04:10):
right, we, we, we, we, um.
So, maybe, to conclude, we've,we've done, uh, a dance floors
that produce electricity whenyou dance on it, the first
sustainable dance floor.
Uh, we were part of the design.
Uh it the first sustainabledance floor.
We were part of the design.
We built the world's largestsmoke vacuum cleaner that that
sucks up polluted air, making anair park.
We've recently launched thebiodegradable fireworks called
(04:33):
spark and um.
Right now we're working hard onthe glowing garden, on real
flowers that you see behind me,the orchid nursery that glow
from within themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So yeah, we'll get to those projects in a little
while I.
I wanted to also understand youwanted.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You wanted an introduction, so that's, that's
yeah I know perfect, it'sperfect.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
There's no, there's no fixed rule how this chat is
going to go oh yeah, but I waswondering.
I was wondering the triggerthat that brought you from fine
arts to what you're doing today,because it's not a logical
sequence.
Something must have triggeredyou and say, oh, this is the
direction I want to go.
I mean, you told me about yourinnovative spirit.
(05:17):
No for answer, and I got this,this is cute.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, this is my best friend, yeah okay, we all need
a best friend yeah, yeah, um, no, I mean the, the logic.
Well, I mean I.
I think the whole traditionalthinking of linear thinking like
ab, d is restraining us ashuman beings and actually the
(05:47):
biggest challenges we have rightnow on a global scale are not
will not be fixed by linearthinking, right?
So you gotta be a hybrid.
You've gotta connect differentworlds, different thinking,
collaborate, invent.
So I think it's more aboutdesigning the missing link
(06:07):
between worlds or betweendisciplines, rather than
sticking to what you know and so80% of what I'm doing now I was
never educated, for like threeyears ago, when you came to work
on Glowing Garden, I couldn'teven keep my house plant alive.
And now it's so funny when youstart growing things.
I'm a tech guy.
(06:28):
I know about microchips, c++.
I read the magazines.
I know what's playing in thatworld.
So interesting the first timeyou start to grow a flower.
In the beginning, it's like youremember when you were a kid,
but you didn't know how to readyet, right?
And you're holding this book andbut you didn't know how to read
yet, right, and you're holdingand you're like, in a couple of
(06:49):
months I will know what, what'sthe story, what it's as, but but
you don't know yet.
Somehow, you, you sort of knew,right and I think that's with a
, with a plant and a flower aswell that now I can look at a
flower and I can see less water,more sun or it's stressed, or
we need to fertilize it or justleave it alone, and in the
beginning you don't know.
(07:09):
So I love growing things andit's also when you work with
nature I think you sort ofrealize that sort of God creates
.
We just modify it, so thenotion of control becomes an
illusion and and you but you cansort of nudge it, you can sort
of massage it into trying to bea little bit different and learn
(07:33):
from it.
So no, to answer your question,I believe in making these links
and being an amateur trying tobecome an expert and infiltrate
in different disciplines, and Ithink that's also where I create
my most value, right, beingthat happy infiltrator and being
(07:53):
different and asking stupidquestions and not realizing that
something is not possible, doyou?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
prefer people to call you a creator or an innovator?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Whatever, honestly, I'm already happy when they
spell my name correctly.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It's really difficult .
Well, I have to say, even myname, which is super common in
Dutch, obviously, class.
You would be surprised how manypeople spell it wrongly with
one A and two S's.
It's always like that um but um, no.
So so you, you have a lot ofinteresting projects and quite a
(08:33):
lot of them involve lighting.
Right, and, and I wonder, atone point of time, you, you
started to really get intriguedabout lighting and how that
would I mean.
Lighting for us is magic, we,we, as, like I'm a lighting
designer and, uh, sometimes it'snot about the technology but
about the experience of lighting, what it creates, the thing
(08:54):
that it does to your emotions,um, and I, I guess that that's
also what probably triggered youin in starting to use lighting
in your projects.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Well, absolutely.
And I remember, you know,working when I was doing, when I
was studying fine arts a longtime ago, I would use clay and
wood and I somehow I love theprocess of creation, taking an
abstract idea and drag it intomateriality, but at the same
time, materials felt so, sorough and so stubborn and so, so
(09:26):
rigid.
And then I remember, you know,playing with really simple
spotlights and trying to playwith shadows and light and the
sort of the interference peoplewould have as they would walk
through.
Uh, and, and I love that it's.
It's basically a material,right, not 100%, but it's almost
nothing like if you look at itfrom a factual, material point
(09:49):
of view.
But therefore, it's everythingright.
It can change your mood, it cantrigger you, it attracts right.
I think that's one of the mostintriguing elements of life.
Come on, you put a spotlight ona square, square, wop.
People like right, like it's,it's so beginning.
You know you experiment andthere are like effects that you
(10:11):
like.
But as you sort of evolve youyou realize, hey, you can, you
can tell stories with it right,like the catholic church, the,
the stainless windows, and likethe the building was building,
is telling stories of light andmesmerizing.
I'm not preaching any religionhere, but the Catholic Church
(10:34):
was one of the masters ofunderstanding the power of light
and storytelling.
But anyway, back to the journeyI was in, and so once, for
example, when we did Waterlicht,these blue waves floating above
your head, showing that climatechange is real, showing rising
(10:56):
sea level is coming or couldhappen if we don't take care of
our dikes, our windmills, ourpumps, like in the Netherlands A
virtual flood of water, raisingawareness of a world that is
changing, but also showing thepower and the poetry of living
with water and sort of fightingagainst it or learning from it.
And then suddenly it becomes anemotional story, a social story
(11:19):
.
I think that's to me the mostfascinating.
That's to me the mostfascinating, and right now I'm
mostly focused in existing light.
Right, so we're breedingfireflies.
That's interesting.
How long does it take for afirefly to be born?
From egg to larva, to firefly?
(11:39):
No idea.
Give me a number.
I should have done my own work.
I, I also did it.
Now, what do you think like?
What's your best guess?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
it's probably quite fast, give me another, uh, a
month more no, no, two months,no, 10 months, 10 months, okay,
okay.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
And a firefly lives?
How long?
Maybe shorter?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
than that.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, give me a number, it doesn't matter,
there's no right or wrong.
Two months, 22 days, probablyless, 32 days, like a butterfly.
So they're very I also didn'tknow.
So they're fragile, they're atthe point of disappearing.
They're magical, right, theluciferine in their body, um,
and what's also interesting isthat light is their language,
(12:29):
and what I mean by that.
It's not a metaphor, but it'svery physical.
So the blinking females low onthe ground blink slowly and the
male is up in the air and blinksusually a bit faster, but when
they like each other, they startto synchronize.
So you can see when they'resort of making out.
Right, I'm trying to use acomfortable word for everyone,
(12:54):
but you know what I mean, Iunderstand, I understand, and so
that's why the light pollutionin countries is so horrible for
them, because then they can'tfind each other.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So they're literally lost.
Is that also part of thereproduction process?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
what you just described.
Yeah, of course, when they'resynchronizing, it's part of the
mating process, so you can seethey're getting action tonight,
right, basically, and even theeggs glow, the tiny, tiny eggs.
Eggs, they glow, yeah,afterwards.
So that's why they'redisappearing because of the
light pollution, because of thepesticide, because of the and
(13:33):
the complexity of of being born,so to speak.
Um, so we started the world'sfirst breeding program to bring
them back.
So there's a team of four boyright behind me, uh, hand fed.
They're hand feeding them everytwo days, and right now we have
the first home-born uh,fireflies.
(13:53):
Uh, here and um, building up anew colony, and nobody's ever
done that before.
You know, like, if you so, soglowing algae.
We found a way to make beachesglow.
I have glowing trees here,glowing flowers.
So I'm really interested inthis sort of super nature of
learning from nature and usingthat to learn from it, to
(14:16):
preserve it, but also to bringit back into our daily life, in
our human life.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Is that what we call bioluminescence?
Yeah, it's one of them.
Is that what we?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
call bioluminescence.
Yeah, it's one of them.
You have bioluminescence, youhave fluorescence, you have
phosphoryl.
There are different ways, butthat sort of is the umbrella and
the application that we'relosing it for.
Besides that, they'reincredibly beautiful and it's
fun and emotional to work on it,right Like when I see your
firefly.
It just makes me happy, right?
I don't know why Everyone I'mshowing the Firefly garden here.
(14:50):
It doesn't matter if it was abillionaire or like a famous
actor or you know whomeversigned it.
They all become kid again.
I can see it happening yeah yeah, yeah, they go back to their
kids, which is interesting tosee.
Um, but it's part of ecotourism.
You know, I think it's a bigdiscussion all around the world
(15:11):
how you can create um tourismwhich is good for the
environment, not just bad andnot damaging, but actually
contributing.
Yes, so making a firefly gardenwhere the you know people can
have a dinner or or drinks andand contribute to the, to the
science and the breeding processand to sort of bring them back
and share that knowledge allaround the world.
(15:32):
So I'm really interested increating new environments where
people can experience that supernature and also contributes to
to the well-being on a largerscale, and but that's got to be
designed so that's your, yourfirefly.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
What about the glowing garden?
Is that a different sort ofbioluminescence, or is it?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
yeah, yeah.
So actually flowers alreadyglow for insects like a
butterfly.
So when you, when you look atlight right in the scientific,
so this is light, this, this isso you.
So this is the element, this isthe part you and I see the red
blue, the white part, we is thepart.
You and I see the red blue, thewhite part.
We have the higher frequenciesand lower frequencies that go
beyond our spectrum, like the UVand infrared Exactly the UV and
(16:12):
the infrared, yeah, but lightis like we put light back into
RGB, but that's, of course,insane, right, there's a
multiple of diversity butdifferent topics.
So if you look at the spectrumof light, you and I see the
white light, so to speak.
Insects see a part ofultraviolet light that you and I
(16:32):
can't see.
So we re-engineered thatspecific wavelength in the lab
and the moment you start to addthat to certain types of flowers
, they start to glow, and sowe're not changing the flower,
it's not GMO, it's not likeyou're adding.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I was thinking he's adding some ultraviolet light or
something to get it to glow,but that's not what's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, I mean, it's a specific wavelength and you need
specific flowers and they needto be happy.
That's really important.
And what's interesting is thatactually you see the world
through the eyes of a butterfly,right, you sort of see what
they're seeing.
Yes, of course, yes, okay, notif you want to be really, you
know, a bean counter.
(17:16):
Of course the eye of abutterfly has many triangle
shapes, so you're not literallyseeing, but it is as the closest
.
I understand the point yes,shape, so you're not literally
seeing, but it is as the closest.
I understand and and and I lovethat that that you know.
You sort of you change yourperspective as a designer and
you like, when I design afirefly garden, I don't think
(17:37):
about you and you and you andand the visitors.
I think about them.
What do they want, want whatmakes them happy?
You know which plants do theylike, which kind of water, et
cetera.
So you reposition yourself as adesigner and you start to
design from there and that sortof forces you to have a sort of
humbleness or a sort ofdifferent tactic or a different
(17:59):
strategy, and that's really funas well.
So I would encourage everydesigner, using light or not
light, to sort of positionyourself in a place you're
unfamiliar with, which is also abit uncomfortable, right,
because like, yeah, you don'tknow it yet, but it really helps
you to push the design andcreate something new.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Was the Van Gogh bypass the first sort of
exploration into this sort ofbioluminescence?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean it started with almost10 years ago.
We're getting old.
We got the request from the VanGogh Foundation and Van Gogh
lived in the Netherlands, rightIn Nuenen, in Eindhoven, 1883 to
1885.
Then went to France, made thefamous Starry Night, etc.
(18:50):
But the Van Gogh Foundationwanted to celebrate its 125th
anniversary in the Netherlandsand somehow we became in contact
, in collaboration also withHyman, the infrastructure
company who at that time we werebuilding and designing the
smart highways with, and so theyasked me a very simple question
(19:12):
, which I loved, which can youmake something to make him feel
alive again?
Right, and it's really cool.
So you take this really famouspainter that everybody knows and
then, and how can you make himalive again?
So what I did is like a goodjournalist.
I followed his footsteps.
You know where did he live,where did so?
What I did is like a goodjournalist.
I followed his footsteps.
You know where did he live,where did he hang out, when did
he have a beer, where did hemake his painting?
And we found this beautifulbicycle path in a nature area
(19:34):
and sort of not in the middle ofnowhere, but it's like, you
know, like there's not that muchgoing on in the evening right,
it's quite it, not that muchgoing on in the evening.
Right, it's a bit of nowhere,but it's beautiful words in my
mouth.
But uh, like you know, it'slike it's not.
It's not a hot spot.
You won't have thousands ofpeople there every night now you
do.
But, um, yeah, and, and wefound this bicycle where we sort
(19:59):
of know he lived and worked, hewalked these grounds right, and
so then the idea came up tosort of using a neat phosphor
and materials that would chargeat daytime and glow at night,
and that we would take hisstarry night and sort of embed
it into that landscape as atribute to his famous works, but
(20:19):
also as a sort of very concreteproposal for roads that are
sustainable, that charge at daytime and glow at night.
So, again, making this linkbetween history and future,
between practical and poetry,between a road infrastructure
company and an artist, sodesigning this link.
And it's a 700-meter bicyclepath, not huge budget, but still
(20:43):
today the most publicizedbicycle path in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
It sort of puts you on the map a bit with that
project.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I do know that I had after the launch so many
interviews like BBC Roy to CNNthat even after three, four days
I was tired of hearing my ownvoice.
That says a lot Like you know,you have to talk so much that
after a while you're just like,okay, now I'm, you know like
(21:12):
Radiohead, the song Creep, youknow they're not on the internet
anymore.
I know it definitely resonatedwith a large audience and I
think it's also.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I mean that's when I first heard about you.
To be honest, cool Through thatproject.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I mean, we're still proud of it, but I think it also
it hit a nerve because itshowed that if you create a
sense of place right, if youcreate a place that is
activating something you know,history, future and even it's
interesting um, a lot ofteenagers go there, uh, on their
(21:52):
first date.
So first they go to the bigcinema in in eindhoven and then
after that they go there and dothe things they do on the first
date.
I don't want to know about that, but I gave a talk in denbos a
couple of months ago, which issort of nearby, and then one of
the one of these sort of nervous, uh students came to me and
said, yeah, he, he, he asked meto be, uh, his girlfriend on
(22:15):
that spot.
So it's like, yeah, so so Imean again, it's not about the
technology, it's about what dopeople do there, and I do think
it also is a good example of afuture world where technology is
jumping out of the computerscreen right, and the world is
(22:38):
an interface of information, ofhistory, of energy, and light is
a beautiful tool for that, inan emotional but also in a
functional way.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean, I worked with Philips in my
earlier days and I rememberreally at that time, we were
talking about bioluminescence,in terms of making trees glow,
so we don't need streetlights,and these kind of ideas.
And still today, I thinkPhilips or Signifiers they're
called today they're still verymuch researching all this, and
(23:09):
maybe you have relationshipswith them in that field.
I don't know, but it'scertainly something that you
know.
If you are environmentallyconscious, like you have really
moved into that area as well,being very environmentally
conscious of what's happening inthe world and also in terms of
(23:31):
sustainable energy usage,absolutely yeah and we have a
glowing tree right behind me.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
So we've found a way to.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
We should have had this discussion at night then.
But yeah, way, uh, we shouldhave had this, this discussion,
at night then.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
But yeah, you, actually we should have yeah, uh
, so no, and I and you're, Ithink also, you know, maybe, if
I can address that like um, likephilips and signify are
companies, right, uh, which isfine, right, that's, that's cool
, uh, but I think we're also acompany, but we're sort of.
(24:10):
We're sort of, uh, being acompany is sort of like a jacket
you put on just to operateright, to not be naked, but but
we are idea driven, not moneydriven, right, so it's really we
spend way too much money, timeand energy on ideas without the
clients, without a clear focusgroup or whatever you want to
(24:33):
call it, or what's the KPI orwhatever you know, like, it's
sort of like what we do is like,if we create something that we
think is cool as a design team,the chance that there's somebody
out there in the, in the restof the world, that also agrees
with that, quite big right,because we're critical and we've
seen things, and so I thinkit's really important to you
(24:54):
know, sometimes people say Ihave an idea.
Right, take the idea of aglowing tree.
I'm sure there are many peoplethere's therapists out there who
had that idea right, okay,great, but having an idea is
sort of everything, but it'slike nothing, right, because you
gotta, you gotta, you don't ownan idea.
You have to surrender to it andyou gotta feed it with all your
love, time, money and energyand the idea will take you to a
(25:17):
place you've never been before.
And that's sort of really cool,but also really scary, right,
because it's like uncomfortable.
So that's how you know, you,when you have a good idea, it's
uncomfortable, and so that's whyit's really important.
That's why, indeed, I foundedthe studio that sure, we have
paying clients, right?
You see, uh, crazy billionaires, government, you name it but I
(25:41):
always take like 30 or 40% ofthe profit we make, and I don't
buy a new car or a speedboat formyself, but I kickstart my own
projects, right.
So we fund our own project inorder to keep growing, to keep
trying, to keep failing, to keepexperimenting.
And in the beginning there arealways people who say, oh, it's
not possible or it's not allowed, but in the end they say, oh, I
(26:05):
also had that idea.
But so I think it's importantto put the process of creation
central on everything you do,and the rest is the rest.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
But that's right up your alley.
Like you said at the beginning,I don't take no for an answer.
So, with your passion and yourdrive that is probably a trigger
to if somebody says no, it'snot possible, is to dive into it
and show them it is possible.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, yeah, well, I mean, like, what I usually do is
, when people say no, I say okay, the scale from zero to ten.
Is it like no or is it like no,no, no, no, no, no, no.
What are we talking about?
How strict of a no is it Goahead Sometimes?
(26:53):
The no is, sometimes no is no.
I get it.
It's important, I think, inevery process when you make a
decision, is it based on fear oris it based on curiosity?
Right, so something isphysically not possible, that's
a no.
But sometimes you say nobecause you're hesitant or
(27:14):
you're scared, and to sort ofchallenge that somebody and say,
but maybe you do want it, ormaybe if we change this and this
, you know, no becomes yes, andthat's a journey.
And so that's why we're verycritical in the project that we
accept or we deny, because everyclient or collaboration with it
is like a platonic.
(27:36):
But it is a relationship, right, it is.
It is a journey where youchallenge each other and and you
remember that time in uh designweek in eindhoven where they
had okay, that's a famous designawards, etc.
But they also had an award forthe best client oh, oh, yeah.
No, I can't remember yeah yeah,yeah, I found that, but it was
(27:56):
so interesting because, indeed,we sort of under.
It's always the designer right,oh yeah, but awesome.
But I think the interaction Ihave with my clients and the way
they challenge me and theysomehow, sorry for my French,
bust my balls right, excuse-moi,or I challenge them, that
(28:17):
creates the magic, that createsthe excellence, and so I would,
in the design principle, thedesign scene in principle, would
you know, like benefit tohighlight that interaction is
part of the film.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
I think that's really critical and I think one of my
best memories of my client is apicture that I have of him, with
him and me hugging each other,and I think it may sound strange
, but it was this mutual feelingof respect and appreciation.
(28:57):
You know, a client who fullyaccepted and appreciated what I
had to bring to the table, andlikewise my appreciation to him
for respecting my skills andgoing with it.
And I think these are thingsthat are super, super important.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
And I remember that when we worked with Hermes in
Ginza, in Tokyo and working inJapan, especially Ginza,
everything is regulated everymillimeter, and we had to switch
off five streetlights to makeit dark.
In order to show light, youneed darkness, right, and so
they're sort of like, threemonths later we got four, but
(29:44):
the fifth, no Impossible.
I'm like, okay, you mean no.
Or like no, no, no, no, no.
They're like Dan San.
It's not going to happen, happen, okay.
So the next eight months, um, Iput my teeth, uh in it and
actually, because of the dutchembassy, help, we had a coffee
with somewhere high, whatever we.
(30:07):
But the time we spent on on onestreet lights being switched
off was insane and and it wasreally like like a big thing.
It became a big sort of almostlike a drama, you know, because
I was like, well, we can't open,the light is on, right, they're
like, yeah, but we already sentthe invite, right, it was sort
of.
But then they were so cool,everybody was so professional.
(30:28):
Then, after the opening, theywere like, okay, that was that
was awesome, that looked amazing, we completely understand and
we really what's next?
Right, yeah, and sort of.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
That's for me the biggest compliment that you go
through that journey with allthe ins and the outs, but you
want more and then you have tochange it, then they can see
that why you wanted it and howit really validated your, your
concept.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yeah, it wasn't diva done.
It was really, you know,creating an environment where
the work you know comes to lightand gets the interaction it
needs to have with the visitors.
But working in public space,working with light, is like
every time we do an outdoorexhibition, 80% of the
production time we're talking.
(31:16):
These are large scaleproductions and tens of people,
years of preparation.
Most of the time we spend onremoving light, having lights
switched off billboards thatburn at night, you know with BS,
or streetlights where nobody is, or gas stations fully lit when
they're closed, and so usuallyteams go in advance, make a list
(31:39):
of all the lights that need tobe switched on and we just work
our way down them.
But so I think there's a lot ofbullshit light in a city.
There's also a lot of beautifullight, but so we need to curate
our light better.
When is it telling the rightstory?
When is it meaningful?
Does it need to curate ourlight better?
You know, when is it tellingthe right story?
When is it meaningful?
Does it need to be on?
Um, but you would be surprised.
(32:00):
In a, in a so-calledsustainable society we claim to
be, that it's it's verydifficult to have light switched
off and a lot of lights areburning and nobody knows why.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Light design is also about what not to light.
You know, it's not justAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
The answer is not to put light and to sort of that
climax that kind of thinkinginto the Seeing Star project
that we've done, which startedas a sort of boyish idea like,
hey, we don't see the starsanymore, right, since 20, 30
years.
Why?
Because of the light pollution,right, the meaningless beaming
(32:39):
of BS light.
What if, for one night, wewould just switch off all the
lights?
Right, and I'm not talkingearth hour, like one hour, no,
no, no, no.
I'm talking about all the lightsLike, just like a dark zone,
and finally we found two mayorswho said the beautiful word, yes
, right, and we did it.
(33:02):
One of the largest was inLeiden, which is close to
Amsterdam, one of the most lightpolluted areas in the world.
But, martin, just the time ittook to switch lights off, we
found so many orphanage lights.
This was in collaboration withthe mayor, with the city.
The government was involved.
They needed to approve security, et cetera.
All the citizens needed to beinformed with a letter.
(33:23):
I mean it was like a huge, huge.
I still can't believe we gotaway with that one.
I still can't believe we madethat one happen.
It's incredible, but there wereso many orphanage lights, but I
mean, made that one happen.
Uh, it's incredible.
But but there were so manyorphanage lights, but I mean
they're just burning, nobodyowns them, nobody knows what
they're doing, who controls them, who takes care of them?
Um, yeah, but we did it and andas we, on 10 o'clock, we
(33:45):
switched off all the light um 10000 people in on the street,
finally, no clouds, andeverybody started to whisper and
you could see the stars aboveyour head and it was so magical
to bring that back.
I love light, but we need tocurate it in a better way.
(34:09):
I think it's unacceptable thatwe live in a world where we talk
about AI and self-driving carsand blockchain, but we don't see
the stars anymore.
That's not a smart city no, no,no no you see the stars in a
smart city.
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I just wanted to support your story because I
have a farmhouse in the south ofFrance and in that little
village which really there'shardly anybody there, we're like
maybe three, four families.
There's no streetlights,there's no shops, there's no
nothing, and at night it's likepitch dark.
But once the moon comes up andthe stars are there, you can
(34:53):
walk.
You can walk around without anystreet light whatsoever and
people don't realize that.
And I'm sometimes on the sidefor for a project, and I've got
my, my, my team members comingout with with their flash, the
torch lights or their phone tolight up the way.
See, we don't need that, justuse your eyes, don't be afraid
(35:14):
of the dark.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, and you're right.
And I mean, I think next weekis Dark Sky Week.
Yeah, right, that's next week.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
While we're talking, and it doesn't mean you have to
be completely dark.
By the time this is put on thenet, this will probably be
faster anyway.
You know what I mean.
But anyway, by the time this isput on the net, this will
probably be faster anyway, andyeah.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
But anyway, it doesn't mean you have to be
completely dark, it's just, youknow, aim it downwards, use a
certain type of color, uh,switch it off when it's not
necessary, so, and but what isinteresting if you zoom out for
a sec, um, and you talk aboutdesign and creation.
You know I'm not a religiousperson per se or like a biblical
(35:56):
person, but it is interestingif you look at Genesis, the
first book in the Bible, thefirst form of creation was light
, right, and there was light.
So it's sort of the beginning.
Again, we're not sure if ithappened in that way, but let's
just assume it.
It was the beginning ofcreation.
(36:17):
And it's interesting because howfar is the sun away from us?
How many kilometers, martin,you know this.
How many kilometers is the sunaway?
You tell me it's 480 millionkilometers away, or something
like that.
It's like really far, and theand the moon is only 850
(36:41):
kilometers, so it's quite nearby.
So when you have a full moon,of course the moon doesn't give
light, it reflects the sunlight.
So so just imagine you have theearth, then you have this.
You know, millions and millionsand millions of kilometer, sort
of nuclear explosion, right,and that light goes.
What is it Three hundredthousand kilometers per second,
(37:03):
speed of light towards the moon?
And that's why you can walk inyour garden without the torch?
I mean, that's light design,that's light design.
Yeah, that's, that's impressive, right.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's impressive.
I know Light is magical, forsure, but you mentioned AI and I
think we can't walk around itand certainly looking towards
the future, ai is already withus on a daily basis and I would
be very interested in.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh sorry, Martin, I remember it's 148 million
kilometers, or 150, not 148.
We can have Chetji, I'mlistening.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But I really want to have this discussion about AI as
well, because it's infiltratingour daily lives with a scary
speed and many, many companiesand people are starting to use
it in many different forms.
And I was wondering, in termsof you know, you talked about
(38:05):
concept creation Does AI startto play a role with you?
Because, of course, you can doyour own research, but now, with
, with the aid of ai, there maybe a lot of, uh, new
opportunities that may help thecreation process?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
absolutely no, I mean it's.
I think it's the biggestinvention since world wide web
or the iphone 100 and, uh, it'sa buddy, it's your buddy, it's
one of your best buddies.
If I would tell, if we wouldhave this interview five years
ago, maybe even three, and thatI would be here just sitting
with a MacBook on relativelyokay Indonesian Wi-Fi, I would
(38:44):
talk with robots, they wouldtalk to me, I would generate
images, I would WhatsApp them tothe printer, who would deliver
it to me next day, print it out,framed and everything full
color, and I would hang it hereon the wall.
You know, text-to-imagegeneration, mid-journey.
That sounds like the beginningof a good sci-fi movie, right?
No, it's real.
So what's interesting when youwork with AI?
(39:07):
The focus text-to-imagegeneration, the mid-journey the
only limitation is is your ownimagination, right?
So we, from day one, startedworking on it.
I spent hundreds of hours on itand you're right in the
beginning.
It gives you this weird feelingin your stomach, right, because
you're talking to the robots andthey start to understand you
and you're eating smarter andbut on the other hand, um, you
(39:32):
know, just go back to the timewhere we would spend three days
on one artist impression.
Now I have three people workingfull-time on it.
We're spending, we're producingthousands.
I'm talking about tens ofthousands of images every week.
The sheer amount and options isinsane and as you're feeding
the, you start to recognize yourpreference and the prompt.
(39:56):
It's a form of art to be aprompter, to specify the light,
specify the texture, specify thecamera, like.
It is a form of art, like themonks did from the Catholic
Church making the stainlesswindows or making the books.
So that's one.
It's a body.
(40:17):
The speeds, the preciseness isincredible.
But what we're doing is alsomaking it real, and what I mean
by that is so we make an image.
In the end, right, I send it tothe team, they make a prototype
, and then we take a photo ofthat prototype, we upload it
again into the mid-journey andwe tweak it, we work on it, so
(40:40):
we go from digital to analog,digital to analog, digital to
analog, digital to analog and inthe end it's real right.
And what I mean by real, likeit's tactile, physical
experience that you can see andtouch without tech, without a
screen or Google Glass orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So I think this jumping between the different
worlds is really interesting andyeah, is that here to stay, or
you think they're talkingnowadays about AI agents who can
do a lot of tasks for you?
Is that something that may helpyou to cross check and and
fine-tune the designs?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I, I hired already.
No, I think, two to threepeople less this year because of
ai, absolutely wow.
So that that's that.
That's, that's bad news.
In that way, it's also goodnews because you can do more,
and I think the whole discussionai good or bad now it's just
you, you being able to use it asa skill, you can do more.
(41:42):
Um, it goes back to the, to theold tradition will technology
make us more, more human or moremachine?
Right, like, like, like, uh.
I think it emphasizes that welive in a world where creativity
is, is, is our most importantskill, is our real capital,
(42:03):
because the machine I still needto tell, the machine I still
need to tune, I still need tointerpretate what the client or
the team is saying.
Right, the client says I'm aand I understand she means I
like grass, because I know her,I know what she's trying to tell
me.
Or I think we should do grassand not green.
So our human skill, our desireto learn, our desire to
(42:25):
challenge, our desire to allowourselves to fail, those will be
even more important skills tohave, because that separates us
from the robots and machines.
So, with other words, I wouldembrace it, use it as a tool.
Realize that you're still stillnever say never, we're still in
(42:47):
charge and use creativity asyour biggest capital, because
that will separate you from themachine.
That's how we find a newbalance, or we become robot food
or the character of a GeorgeOrwell book.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, I know it's carrying away because the speed
at which this developed, I meanyou can imagine that AI will be
able to understand your clientand create a narrative out of
the brief that they're evenunderstanding you will do that.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
No, we tried that in ChatGTP Grover.
It still sucks, still bad atmaking titles, still doesn't
really.
Will it still be like that intwo or three years?
I mean, if we feed it right, itcould be a buddy, but it's
still.
I think you know, never saynever, right?
(43:44):
You never know how fast thedevelopment goes.
And, yeah, in 2027, you willhave, you know, independent AI
agents which can do a lot of thetasks you and I are doing right
now.
No doubt about that, no doubtabout it.
So that means that we have tofocus on the skills we have as
human beings that computers androbots do not have, and
(44:05):
emotional intelligence, thecreative, accepting fear,
accepting failure.
So we've just got to be betterhumans.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's the best solution, I think when we talk
about all this, we have to makesure that we remain the creator
and chief and use it as ourcompanion and our co-pilot, in a
way, awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Martin.
I did it here with some kids,here for my friends.
He has two kids and they'relike five or eight years old and
I'm just sitting there okay,tell me your future, tell me,
describe me your best future.
And they're like I'm with momand dad on the beach.
I'm like, okay, are you aloneor where?
And?
And so I typed the prompts andthen we're generating their
(44:52):
images, as they're sitting nextto me visualizing their future.
And then I sent it to theprinter and the next day they
got it delivered at home.
That image is now hanging abovetheir kid's bed and it's cool
to sort of sit together andcreate their future, and they're
like whoa, is that possible?
It was so much fun.
(45:13):
It's good to be scared, but Ithink it's even better to be
curious.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
We have to embrace it , that's for sure.
You use Midjourney to do that,or are you using other tools?
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, midjourney, a variety of things.
I love the runway for the moviemaking and also maybe it's also
good to address it depends oncountry.
Europe is stuck.
It's like wind in a glass bowl.
It's not wind anymore.
Europe is just focused onregulation, while Middle East
embraces it, and Asia as well alittle bit.
Just to give you an example,I'm Dutch, right, I love my
(45:47):
country, don't get me wrong, butthere was a House of Parliament
discussion and you can followonline for around an hour
talking about the price increaseof stamps at Postenel.
So the stamp would increase for8%.
People use free stamps per year.
A stamp is one euro and they'relike.
It's a shame and you shouldn'tdo that.
(46:08):
One Martin, one hour, the topgovernment official talking
about stamps, while Middle Eastlaunched a department, a
ministry of artificialintelligence, spending hundreds
of millions of euros in.
So in Europe we're going totalk about stamps for an hour
(46:29):
and Middle East is justlaunching ministries.
About it, guess who's going towin, and that worries me to be
miniseries about it.
Guess who's going to win.
And that worries me.
To be honest, I'm serious thatthere's no plan, there's no
vision, there's no real urgencyor curiosity, and then we just
become wind in a glass bottle.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
It's a bit surprising , but it brings up the topic of
regulation, standardizations andintellectual property
protection.
Um, that's typically something.
I don't know how you look atthat, but, um, a lot of creators
obviously are worried about howto protect their intellectual
property rights.
(47:08):
What's?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
your good reason, yeah, yeah, for good reason I
mean yeah, no, no, for sure Ithink it.
It comes down to the point youwant to defend what you have,
you want to explore what'scoming.
You know, like, like, like sure, you know designers should be
paid for their work, right, andshould get a get a fee or a
license or something like that.
(47:31):
It should be equal.
Right now, indeed, it's justall sucked up in the big robot,
you can basically accessanything.
Martin, if you Google on now.
It was so funny.
They had, I think, in Warsaw, amasterclass on the university
Midjourney the new work of DanRosegard.
(47:51):
Every week they take a famousartist and they try to use
Midjourney to create their newartworks.
A masterclass, and somehow thiswas forward to me, so they
shared the result.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
With your permission.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
No, no, no, they just used Midjourney, but you can
prompt it in the style of DanRosegard.
And they sent the result and80% was bad, but 20 was actually
.
I'm like what that's?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
that's not bad.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
I mean, I would hire you I would hire you like you
would be hired, yeah, if youwant to.
But, uh, so on one hand it's alittle bit, like you know,
annoying and irritating what areyou doing on the hand?
it is fascinating that peoplewho don't know me I don't know
them can sort of predict whatI'm working on next, right, I
think if you zoom out.
(48:40):
We're all part of an ecosystem,right, and we're feeding the
ecosystem with our ideas, andI'm proud of that.
If I walk into a fine artacademy in the Netherlands, I
see one of my works in a shittyblack, white photocopy uh,
printed, hanging on the wall.
You know, like I'm part of thatmental map and and I'm I'm
excited about that, so I don't.
(49:02):
Overall, I'm like it.
It shows that we're allconnected.
We're part of a network.
Um, we have to invest in newideas and new designs to survive
, and that's the biggeststrategy.
Trying to restrain or restrictit is not going to help.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
It will be very difficult yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
To summarize yeah, designers should get paid if
their work is being used 100%.
But also, let's just take alittle bit of a chill pill about
it and think forward instead ofholding on.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yeah it and think forward instead of holding on.
I heard I was listening to apodcast about AI and one guy was
suggesting that the moment youtype in somebody's name, that
automatically triggers acopyright action.
What exactly wasn't specified,but like okay, if someone says,
(49:54):
boom, you know you're using hisintellectual property.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
It's such old school economy.
You know like even you knowcopyright of photos, the old
architectural firms.
You have to pay if you want touse their photos right For
publication.
From day one, when I was a fineart student, I was like no,
please, here's the present, Useit for free.
The more you share it, it'sbetter for everyone.
I don't want you to paper it, Iwant you to share it.
(50:22):
I don't want you to share it alot because somewhere, somehow,
more people see it.
They will be triggered and ifthey want the real thing, the
original thing, they'll come tome and the other people just
make weird copycats.
And it's also okay.
It makes the real more real.
It's fine, just relax.
(50:44):
Keep making new work, keeplearning, keep pushing, keep
being two steps ahead.
That's your value and being so.
You know like it's like whenyou.
It's like it's the same inprivate relationship If you're
dating a boy or girl.
You know if you start doingthat behavior, it's the same in
private relationship If you'redating a boy or girl.
You know if you start doingthat behavior, it's not going to
last very long, right, ifyou're just like yeah no, I've
(51:08):
always been big on sharing.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
I love sharing my knowledge and my expertise with
others, and but I also knowpeople that don't want to do
that because they feel they'recreating competition or whatever
it is.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
I think you grow from sharing and to me it's a very,
very positive thing.
And, martin, if there's an AIagent down, rosegard, fine.
I just take my dog to the beachevery morning and bye.
Nice, retired at 45.
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Good luck.
What about confidentiality?
Because sometimes we are in aspace where we work Awesome Good
luck.
What about confidentiality?
Because sometimes we are in aspace where we work where
there's some sort ofconfidentiality between you and
your client and you still wantto use AI.
That sometimes is a bit of achallenge.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Well, definitely, if you're designing something, you
need to create a place that issafe, and what I mean by that is
, especially in the beginning,an idea is right, so it needs to
be protected, it needs to benourished, it needs to grow.
So having an environment in thestudio where where ideas can
flow freely and you canexperiment freely with ideas and
prototype is super important.
(52:16):
And once it's sort of matureand and and well thought of and
from different perspectives, youcan share it with the rest of
the world.
So the whole notion of sharingeverything that is now.
You need to incubate your spacefirst.
After that, yeah sure.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Do you think designers should declare their
use of AI, just in the spirit oftransparency?
Because I do know some peopleuse it, but you can sort of
guess, but they don't really sayit.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Well, I think it would be a good thing to sort of
educate people for now.
But I see it.
I see immediately if somethingis AI or not.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, but you're an experienced AI user, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
No, and I think what's the problem?
I would vouch for it in thetime being, because it's a
problem that people become verydistrustful of what they see Is
this a real gas photo or not?
From the war images.
So the problem is, if peoplestart to distrust what's on the
(53:30):
screen, they hide more in theirown bubble.
So the desire to interact, tolearn, to be open becomes
minimalized, and that's a badthing because then we become
robots.
Right, our vision, ourperspective becomes tooized, and
that's a bad thing, becausethen we become robots right
Exactly.
Our vision, our perspectivebecomes too narrow, but at the
(53:50):
same time, martin, I think itwill re-emphasize a renaissance
of nature.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
When I look at a firefly here.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
When I look at a firefly and I show it to people,
they get emotional, right,because it's real, it was born.
We fed it for four months everytwo days with meal worms that
we have to breed ourselves, andokay, and we have to figure it
out how.
And it's a real, it's nature.
We can't control it, we canjust let it emerge, um, so, so I
(54:22):
think we live in a time wherewe go back to nature and
appreciate nature more and more.
As this AI revolution is goingon, as always, there will be
different movements finding anew balance.
But to end on that note, we dohave to renegotiate our
relationship with technology.
(54:42):
Right now, we're feeding ourrobots with our our time, our
money, our love, our passion,our ideas, and all we get back
is a likey, a facebook, likeyour instagram.
That's a bad deal.
That is a bad deal.
So we do have to renegotiateour interaction and if it's fair
or not, or if it's contributingor activating, and I think at
(55:06):
the moment not.
So, yeah, there needs to besome work out there.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
I want to have a quick chat also about Lux
Futurum.
We have invited you as akeynote speaker in Shanghai in
China later this year, where LuxFuturum for those who don't
know it's a recognition programfor innovative ideas, new
concepts, new projects, allembodying the future, we hope.
(55:37):
And you obviously embody thespirit of Lux Futurum and that's
why we have invited you tospeak and share your ideas.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
For somebody who was kicked out of finance school
twice, that's a real compliment.
I finally fit somewhere Finally.
It took me 45 years.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
You definitely earned it and we look forward to you
presenting what are yourthoughts about this whole luxury
room that we developed and howthat could contribute to the
future of lighting design.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Well, I mean, it's really good that you put people
from a certain discipline, thelight industry, together and
exchange Right.
And I think the goal of theconference or at least the
reason why I'm coming, or why Ithink I'm coming is to sort of
trigger them and tease them inopening up their perspective of
what lights could be and can be,and to sort of share and show
(56:37):
what is possible and the impactthat can have, and not to
suggest it's like easy, but alsoshow people that journey.
How do you go from idea torealization?
How do you trigger clients toapproach and have the guts to do
new things?
Right?
And I always go back to like500 years ago.
(57:00):
You and I, if we would have thisconversation, we most likely
would have thought the, theearth was the, the center of the
universe, right, and all thestars would rotate around us,
right.
And and we liked that idea,right, we were in control, we
really liked that idea.
And then suddenly hadileo cameand he said no, you're living in
(57:22):
a lie, right?
Actually the Earth is turningaround the sun, 148 million
kilometers away from here.
And the Catholic Church at thattime the biggest institution
really didn't like that idea.
So they grounded him for therest of his life, like he could
not leave his house for the restof his life just because he had
an idea.
And then Copernicus came andKepler, and it proved he was
(57:45):
right.
But we still, martin, todaycall it sunset, sunrise,
although it's not true.
It took us 500 years, and westill haven't fully accepted it,
to go from that we are thecenter perspective to our no,
we're actually turning aroundthe sun.
(58:06):
I'm not suggesting I'm aGalileo, by the way, just for
the record.
but so to change yourperspective is everything
because, if you look at thingsin a different way, it changes
everything your relationship,your value system, your words,
right.
And so I hope the confidencethat we'll have on a maybe on a
(58:29):
bigger scale, but even on asmaller scale, but on a certain
scale, you know what I mean Like, like, like, helps people to
change their perspective.
And because when you changeyour perspective, everything
changes, and that's reallyimportant in a time like this.
We looking in the right way?
Are we really seeing what'sreal or not, or is it just an
illusion or a sentiment of thepast we're holding on to?
Speaker 2 (58:49):
yeah, well, part of the the event is also to invite
the shortlisted winners winnersto actually give a presentation
about their work, because justseeing a picture of their work
is.
You know, it's all about sharingknowledge, education.
So we felt it was imperative tohave the winners come up
(59:13):
present and there's sort of.
Also, the incentive of thesubmission is that they'll be
invited to come to China andpresent their winning works so
that we can learn from it.
And at the same time we talkabout AI, we also put in the
sufficient form that we wantthem to declare the use of AI so
we can learn also about thatprocess.
Of what part did AI play in theidea, creation or the concept
(59:40):
or the project that you'representing to us?
Speaker 1 (59:42):
So we're looking very much forward and if you want,
and if you want, I can.
If you send all the images inadvance, I can put it all in my
mid journey and then create awhole new design from all the
winning awards.
Yeah, this was a joke.
This was a joke no, but you're.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Well, it's a joke, but it's a joke, but it's doable
.
It's feasible, becauseobviously we'll have the entry.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah yeah, let's honor the winners first.
We can do a jazz, a mid-journeyjazz party, afterwards.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
We're looking forward to have you there and much
appreciate your acceptance tocome and speak to the audience
there.
I would like to leave this chatwith giving you the floor in
terms of what do you expect interms of the future, for you as
an innovator, as an artist, butalso for the lighting community,
(01:00:40):
in terms of where are we going,what can we expect or what
would you ideally see happening?
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Well, I mean, it's a hunch, right, but there are
really interesting, veryconcrete scientific studies that
you can read in ScienceMagazine where, when two light
beams hit each other on highspeed, in very specific
circumstances, they becomematter, and so the idea is that
(01:01:13):
that's how certain stars orplanets are created, right?
And so I think we just the ideajust blows my mind, Right, you
know, right, you just then youhave something like a real thing
you can touch because of light.
And so I think we just or aNobel Prize winner of laser a
(01:01:36):
couple of years ago, like wejust scratching, barely
sketching the surface of thepotential of light, how it can
help us, how it can heal us, howit can create dimensions that
we don't know, how we can seethe world through the eyes of a
butterfly, right, while we'reactually human.
And so I wish that I and we alltogether have that open
(01:02:02):
perspective on the power oflight and keep experimenting and
keep playing with it, becauseit's going to help us, it's
going to help us as humans 100%.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I have this idea when you and I will have a drink in
Shanghai later this year, we'llbe bouncing ideas and creative
concepts with each other,because you look to me like a
person that you say one thingand then suddenly boom, you get
this idea, or something else.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
The mind is a weird thing.
The mind is a weird thing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Looking forward to it .
Thanks so much for this chat,dan, much appreciated.
Thanks, martin, and we lookforward to see you at the
Luxuryurism event.
100%.
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