November 13, 2024 • 58 mins
This is a conversation about an unexpected journey. As founder of Klaasen Lighting Design, I stumbled into the world of lighting design through a serendipitous encounter at Philips. I share how this encounter transformed my career and ignited a passion that led me from industrial design to become a global influencer in lighting design. This story is woven with tales of international projects, the creation of my personal brand "Light Talk," and a profound career shift, offering lessons on diplomacy, client engagement, and the power of multilingual skills.
From the transformation of my blog "Light Talk" into an influential book, spurred by the inspiration of a pioneering grandmother and a personal challenge mirroring the film "Julie & Julia." This journey of daily blog posts evolved into a platform for global interaction. The narrative of this story shines a light on the challenges and rewards of balancing creativity with business acumen, emphasising human-centric lighting and the relevance of staying adaptable through industry changes.
We also take a deep dive into my role as a mentor and educator, guiding the next generation of lighting designers through master classes and insightful mentorship. My experiences over the last 45 years in the industry are distilled into modules that offer both practical knowledge and inspiration for aspiring designers.
Join me for a great personal conversation I had with Ingmar Klaasen that traverses the evolution of my lighting career.
More from the Light Talk Desk
Watch my vlogs, industry dialogues and project tours.
Listen to enriching stories, deep insights, and expert opinions in my podcast.
Learn directly from a master, absorbing the knowledge, techniques and the artistry of lighting design through my masterclass.
Sign Up to the AI Fundamentals course for Lighting Designers.
Download and delve into my works 'Light Talk, a Year in the Life of Light' and 'Light Talk 2, 16 Years in the Life of Light' - follow the journey of lighting design through his books.
Check out lighttalk.space
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You can't make all the mistakes yourself, right.
So, you have to look at whatother people do as well and
learn from what they teach youand what they learned along the
way as well.
To me, it doesn't make sense ifall my knowledge stays in my
head.
It doesn't serve anybody else.
I always felt the need to share, because it's very gratifying
(00:23):
to be able to share knowledgeand then see that you can change
sometimes just one person'slife.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's not often that we get to sit down together and
have a chat about somethingthat's not business related,
even though we work in the sameoffice, sort of.
This is business.
So here we are, welcome.
I'm sitting down with MartinKlaassen, as you know, founder
and principal of Klaassen Lightand Design.
I've been working with Martinfor quite some years now in the
(00:58):
office in Perth here, but todaywe're talking about something a
little bit different.
But today we're talking aboutsomething a little bit different
.
We've also been on a littlepersonal journey to basically
put together Light Talk, whichis your personal brand, right,
and it's something that's a bitmore, I guess, dear to your
(01:19):
heart.
I mean, you put a lot of energyand effort all those years into
developing your core lightingdesign business of class and
lighting design, and I'm goingto get into as well asking about
how that all happened.
You know from how you got intolighting, your inspiration, um,
your journey through gettinginto class and lighting design,
(01:40):
and then also what we aretalking about today, which is
the Light Talk platform whichyou have set up, and I've helped
you create that over the lastcouple of years as well.
But why not start with yourpersonal journey First of all?
What inspired you to get intolighting in the first place and
(02:01):
how did you sort of end uphaving your own practice?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it's always an interesting question.
Um, I'm actually an accidentallighting designer.
I never set out to become alighting designer.
Um, when I finished my studies,I did industrial design.
I got a master's degree in that.
Yeah, I was looking for a job,and one of the companies that I
applied in is Philips.
Nowadays it's called Signify,but at the time it was called
(02:28):
Philips, philips Lighting.
No, it was actually not PhilipsLighting.
I didn't even apply for PhilipsLighting.
I went to Philips.
There was an advertisement for ajob in consumer products and I
thought, as an industrialdesigner, designing consumer
products would be typicallysomething that would suit me.
So I went one day and when Iarrived there, they said what
(02:52):
would you like to do?
And I thought what do you mean?
I'm coming for this specificjob position.
So now we have a few of them.
What do you think aboutlighting design?
And I had no idea what lightingdesign was.
I said that sounds interesting,happy to have a look.
As it happened, that departmentwas just around the corner from
(03:15):
where I was having my interviewand he said well, I can make an
appointment for you right now.
You can go there and see ifthat's something that you are
interested in.
So I went there and it wastaken away straight away um.
There was about a group of 4050 people doing lighting designs
on big projects olympic gamesdid you even know what lighting
(03:38):
design was?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
no, I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I thought it was designing light bulbs or things
with theater lighting or thingslike that.
I had no idea that somethinglike actual lighting design
existed.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Did you think it was designing light fittings in the
beginning?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, I thought more because I was a product designer
.
I thought there was moreproducts rather than consultancy
or services or things like that.
But then I saw what they weredoing and I saw how they were
drawing plans and creatingconcepts for stadiums and for
buildings and so, wow, I wasblown away and I liked the vibe
(04:15):
on the department and I said yes, straight away.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And that was in 1979.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
So I'm always somebody that if I like it, I
don't hesitate and I go for it.
I I can turn around 20 times,but I will still come back there
.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So I decided to do it and say yes was there something
specifically that captured yourum inspiration or your you know
?
You were like, yes, this was it.
Was it a particular part of theprocess or just being able to
have a say in the outcome of theproject?
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I just liked the vibe of the department.
I liked the way they wereworking.
It attracted me.
The projects that they weredoing.
It was not just something justin Holland, because that was
Holland at the time.
They were doing jobs all overthe world.
That was also something that Ithought, wow, that's also
interesting.
(05:09):
I was just captivated by whatthey were doing and I had no
idea where it was going to bringme.
And in fact, my first year Ididn't do any projects.
My first year I was just doingresearch and helping some of the
department heads developingstrategies for lighting and I
(05:30):
did things about museum lighting, I studied infrared and
ultraviolet lighting and someother things like that.
But it's only after a year thatI started to become involved in
projects.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So you never actually did a proper lighting course?
No, you pretty much learnedeverything you knew, or that you
now know on the job.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
On the job, hands-on.
Of course, my design study,industrial design, helps you
with the design process.
So in a way, you could say, yes, I have the design experience
because I knew what conceptualdesign was, I knew what design
development was, I knew how tocreate details, work things out
and all that and createdocumentation.
(06:13):
All that I knew, but notspecifically for lighting.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
What were some I don't know if you can call them
mistakes or things that youdidn't know that you think I
wish I actually knew thatearlier.
You know that you were onlyexposed to as a result of
learning on the job, and it'sthey're actually quite important
(06:40):
things.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Maybe it's to do with the process or yeah, I mean,
these are all small littlethings, but I had an interesting
approach because I wassurrounded by experts.
So when I started in theproject business, there were a
lot of people that had been inthe lighting design at that
department for years and years.
So my approach was I don't knowtoo much, why don't I ask a
(07:01):
couple of experts?
So I would form my designapproach by interviewing some of
my colleagues and say, okay,you're an expert on this, how
would you approach it?
Then I would go to the next one.
I said how would you do it?
And, interestingly, afterhaving asked two or three of
them, they all had differentapproaches.
So, I sort of out of that, I gota bit of an idea.
(07:23):
I like that, I like that, andthere's obviously not one
solution to a lighting issue orlighting problem, and so that's
how I sort of gradually buildsmy experience.
Then, of course, once you startdoing lighting design, there's
always little things.
I can't remember all of them,but there's always little things
that you that you learn about,little things that you that you
(07:46):
learn about I don't know thatthe number of light fittings,
position, glare, these are small, little things.
That that everybody is likewhen you drive, when you have
your driving license, you onlylearn to drive once you have
your license.
So I learned lighting designalong the way and it's a lot of
little, small things, um, butyeah, you learn from your
mistakes, right, andinterestingly, you also learn
(08:07):
from other people's mistakes, Ithink that's not a very big
takeaway that you, you don't.
You can't make all the mistakesyourself, right so you have to
look at what other people do aswell and learn from what they
teach you and what they learnedalong the way as well.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So would you say early on that you had mentors in
the business?
Absolutely.
Are there a few key people thatyou looked up to or that guided
you the most through thatjourney?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I think within Philips, I would say gerrit van
de belt was my main mentor, hewas my boss.
Um, he was the one also sayingto me martin, don't fret about
it, sleep on it, tomorrow isanother day, right.
Right, because sometimes youhave a tendency of reacting
emotionally on on a problem orif you're confronted with issues
(09:03):
, he said he always told me justjust sleep on it.
Yeah, then we review ittomorrow.
Think like, so he's been, he'sbeen really good about, about
helping me away, helping me, uh,progress through to the sort of
diplomatic minefield, becauselife design is not only
(09:23):
designing, it's also dealingwith, with clients, is also
dealing with your colleagues, isdealing with, uh, contractors
on site.
Yeah, so that's a lot ofpolitical impact diplomatic
approaches on how you youapproach.
(09:44):
I remember one day I was inSaudi Arabia and meeting some
Sheikh or some important guy forwhom I was still with Philips
at that time.
We were presenting a projectand then the big boss asked me
what do you think of this?
I thought maybe we could do itthis way or this way, and it was
(10:06):
a ridiculous proposal.
I don't think it was reallygood, but I couldn't tell, of
course, that it was not a gooddesign.
So what I learned to say is oh,that's not a bad idea, we could
do it.
What about if we do it this wayand this way?
So, having validated him infront of his staff and then come
(10:28):
up with another option, was adiplomatic way of saying well,
your solution was not reallygood, but why don't we do it
this way?
That's the sort of thing thatI've learned along the way how
to listen, how to deal withclients, in validating and
respecting them, but alsoputting your own point of view
(10:49):
across.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And doing that in a very respectful way.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, I think lighting design also is very
much about listening.
You need to really listen toyour clients.
You need to understand wherethey're coming from.
It's not only your way or thehighway.
You really need to understandwhat their worries are, what
their concerns are and how youcan address that.
And then in the process,obviously you try to push
(11:14):
forward what you think would bethe right solution.
But it's their money, it'stheir project, so you need to be
respectful of what they want tospend.
You need to be respectful ofwhat they want to spend.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
If you feel that they need to spend more, then you
need to educate them why theyshould spend a bit more, what
the benefits and added valuesare.
So it sounds like already at avery early moment in your career
, it already helped shape a lotof those aspects which you are
actually putting in your LightTalk platform for others to make
use of.
We'll get to the nitty-grittyand what Light Talk is all about
(11:54):
, but still on the topic of yourjourney, right, how did you
then move forward from Philipsto where you are, I guess,
moving?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, that's also an interesting thing because I
always wanted to be sort ofindependent.
I never really liked thecorporate environment where you
had to clock in, you know, witha time card when you go into the
office and clock again when youget out, and all this sort of
(12:28):
over-regulated workingenvironments was never really my
thing.
So there was always this desireto to be an independent,
entrepreneurial sort of person.
But I still spent 12 years, 12and a half years, with Philips
and at one point of time I wasposted by see.
(12:51):
I had the advantage that firstof all I was multilingual, so
besides Dutch, french andEnglish and a bit of German,
that was always helpful.
So I was internationallyschooled and trained, which made
me really suitable within theorganization to travel and
represent the client.
(13:12):
So I always traveled, even forPhilips I traveled quite a lot.
So at one point of time theydecided to post me in Singapore
to develop their projectbusiness over there, because
they just had salesrepresentatives.
Nobody knew really aboutprojects.
Projects were all dealt with inHolland.
So they wanted to develop moreapplication oriented and like a
(13:36):
team that was able to developprojects.
So I was posted there and mymain task was to develop this
project business, the projectsupport in asia.
So that was where, where I wasin, in singapore.
I came there in 1988.
Uh, what's quite challenging isa sort of a culture shock,
obviously from from uh, the, thenetherlands to to a tropical
(13:59):
country like singapore,singapore, being an expatriate
there.
But I had super support.
But my region of support wasstretching all the way from
Korea in the north to Australiain the south, and so it was
quite a big area and I needed totrain the people and I had been
(14:23):
already training.
So the advantage with maybejust a step back as a with my
education and my knowledge, Iwas able quite quickly, within
the Philips infrastructure, tobecome also a trainer.
So after a few years, after Ihad done a couple of projects, I
was also integrated in theirtraining system.
(14:46):
So they would receive peoplefrom all over the world to their
main head office in Eindhovenand we would train them and
explain to them about lightingand lighting technologies and
lighting applications.
And I was one of those teachersin the earlier days as well and
lighting applications and I wasone of those teachers in the
earlier days as well.
So I already had in me theability to present and to
(15:11):
explain things, which of coursecame in handy when I went to
Singapore and had to train therepresentatives in where there's
Bangkok, jakarta, manila, etc.
So I did that representativesin where is Bangkok, jakarta,
manila, etc.
So I did that.
But then there was areorganization in the in the
early 90s I think was around1990 Philips, I think it was
(15:34):
called Operation Centurion.
They were going to cut jobs andthere were, there were going to
be the changes and things likethat and that's all.
And it was also the first timeI got into contact with actual
lighting designers because, mindyou, before that I was a
lighting designer within acorporate manufacturer right, I
(15:59):
didn't know other than lightingdesigners were part of a
manufacturer.
But actually when I was inSingapore I got into contact
with actual independent lightingdesigners, people that, like
architects, were having apractice providing lighting
design services.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So up to that point you hadn't met outside lighting
designers?
No, Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I had met architects, um, but never actual lighting
designers.
Maybe I had, but I wasn'treally aware of that.
They were independent.
But that opened my eyes.
Oh, this is actually aprofession of independent
lighting consultancy.
Yeah, um, and I got to talk tosome of them and they were
(16:45):
actually a bit upset about whatI was doing there, because I was
providing lighting designservices as part of a
manufacturer, while they weredoing it as part of an
independent practice and theywould say, well, you don't
charge fees and you do it forfree and we need to earn our
money with these services.
(17:06):
Was that the?
main contentious issue or otherpoints of difference.
No, that was one of the triggersthat I realized like, oh yes,
there is actually.
So I set in movement within thePhilips organization how do I
call that?
How do I call that?
A business strategy to createan independent lighting design
(17:31):
consultancy within the Philipsorganization.
To validate that also, to makeit like also a department that
charges fees for its work, tomake it more in balance with the
actual independent consultants.
Yeah, right Now, I did a wholebusiness plan for that.
It never saw the actual daylight.
(17:52):
Okay, and when I had done thewhole business strategy to
create an independentconsultancy and Philips didn't
want to go ahead with it, I said, okay, then I'll do it myself.
And that was basically the themoment that I decided to move
away, also with the uncertaintywithin the philips organization.
Right, I decided, okay, timefor me to move on.
(18:14):
This is maybe my moment.
Um, and I uh resigned while insingapore and uh started my own,
uh, private.
And you never looked back.
No, no, and interestingly, ithad never been done before that
an expatriate resigned whilebeing away.
So even me leaving Philips alsocreate all kinds of interesting
(18:41):
things within the companybecause they had never dealt
with somebody who was stilloverseas while resigning.
Interesting, yeah, but anyhow,it all worked out and yeah, you
can say, I never looked back.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So did you know very early on that you wanted to be a
teacher?
No, did you back then know thatyou wanted to write a book?
No, let alone two books.
No, maybe more.
Yeah, you didn't know that youwere going to be mentoring.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
No, not really.
One of my other mentors was mygrandmother.
She was an architect one of thefirst female architects in
France and I always admired herindependency and her lack of
(19:35):
being influenced by other people.
She did what she wanted to do,regardless what other people
thought of her, and she was alsoan educator.
She wrote books right.
So there's a lot of synergiesbetween what she did writing
books about architecture,writing books for children.
(19:57):
She was also an educator Duringthe war.
She taught her own children.
She was also an educator duringthe war.
She taught her own children.
And that spirit of, you know,being passionate about what she
loved doing, her drive to getthings done regardless of what
(20:18):
other people thought of her, Ithought has always inspired me
and I think maybe book writinghas been sort of coming from her
side Deep down inside.
Yeah, she wrote many books, evenbooks that weren't really done
for selling, where they were notbestsellers or something, but
(20:40):
just the joy of writing andaccomplishing something, and
that's what I with my own booksas well.
My first book uh, light talk,um, a year in the life of a
lighting designer um, wasn't abook that I set out to write.
As you know know, I wrote, Iset myself a challenge to write
(21:03):
a blog about lighting for oneyear, for 365 days, not with the
idea to create a book, but Ijust wanted to challenge myself.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Well, that was actually going to be my question
about, you know, light Talk.
What came first?
The book or the blog, blog, andwas it ever meant to be more
than that?
No, so.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Alex and I went to see a movie called Julia and
Julia, which is about a verywell-known cook who has a
cookbook and then another ladywho challenges herself to cook a
recipe a day out of that bookand then blog about it.
And when we left the movie Isaid, well, maybe I could do
(21:51):
something like that about linedesign.
Why don't I challenge myself towrite about my life as a line
designer by blogging about itevery day for 365 days?
So I set myself that challenge,and I think it was in October
2009, just before theprofessional line design
convention in Berlin, and I saidthat would be a good point to
(22:15):
start this big convention withall the line designers around
the world.
So that's when I started and Ididn't know where I was going.
I would just say let me see ifI can do this 365 days, yeah,
and ultimately I did.
Rain or shine.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So where did you?
How did you go about writingthe blog?
Was it just something you wasit on a website straight away,
or did you write it just by hand?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
How did that happen?
What was the process?
I don't remember the first,because I started in in berlin
um at the convention and, as Iwas there, I shared my.
I think that with, withwordpress or some some program,
you could create a website.
So I created something right.
But when I shared my idea ofblogging with the organizers,
(23:09):
they said, oh, at that time itwas the Professional Lighting
Designers Association that wasrunning this convention and we
said, oh, we'll be looking forsomebody to blog about lighting.
Okay, so they took up the ideaof blogging and they put my blog
on their website.
All right, I see so, andinitially my blog was called
(23:32):
Perceptions, but they thought,nah, that's not very catchy, was
that something that they namedit?
Yeah?
So they said, what about light?
Talk Light, as in not heavytalking about light, and and you
know, talk, because you knowyou talk about lighting.
So I thought, yeah, that soundsgood.
So within one or two weeks wechanged it to light talk and it
(23:56):
became a feature on theirwebsite for many, many years and
it had to reach out to all thelighting designers around the
world that were a member of theprofessional designers quite a
big yeah, so there were timeswhere I had like three to four
thousand views a month.
Oh wow, uh, just on my blogs.
Um, so it was really nice andpeople commented and and uh, to
(24:20):
the extent that at one point oftime, one of one of my followers
didn't see my blog for two daysand he sent me emails and
Martin, are you okay, I haven'tseen your blog.
Turned out that there was someissue in his country, but it
just shows you that I had somesome very intensive and very
(24:41):
dedicated followers at the time,which was really nice, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So let's talk about Light Talk, then, and I guess
your vision for Light Talk Iguess at some point in time the
concept of what Light Talk istoday went from being a blog
then to a book.
I guess that was a decision initself.
To compile everything into abook, yeah Right, a really good
(25:11):
way to actually look back ateverything you've written for
starters, but then as an overallconcept, what was your vision?
What did you intend Live Talkto do?
Or was that something that wasjust you didn't know at the time
, and then it developed as youwent along.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't know.
I'm very much like that with alot of things.
I know roughly the direction Iwant to go, but I don't always
know how it will evolve.
In this case, it started withthe blog, but then, as I grew
older and got more experiencedand more knowledgeable, I also
(25:54):
feel that there is a need forthe older generation to share
knowledge with the newergeneration.
Yeah, to me it doesn't makesense if all my knowledge stays
in my head.
It doesn't serve anybody else.
So I've always felt and thatcame already when we talked
(26:16):
about my Phillips days, when Iwas already training and sharing
knowledge and mentoring the newgeneration I always felt the
need to share, because it's verygratifying to be able to share
knowledge and then see that youcan change, sometimes just one
(26:38):
person's life.
I remember I was at an event inManila and one participant came
up afterwards and said Martin,I've been reading your blog and
I've got your book.
And I said, if you rememberthis and this, what you said
(26:58):
then made so much impact and itreally helped me turn around my
business and and gave memotivation.
Um, I've had it a few timeslike that and that's something
that's really gratifying thatyou know that you made an impact
on somebody in a positive wayby just sharing your, your, your
(27:19):
knowledge, your expertise orgiving general advice on how you
could deal with lighting or thebusiness of lighting design in
general.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And you never know who is actually reading or
listening or following.
I remember being with you onceat an event I don't remember
exactly which one but you gotstopped in the hallway by
someone who recognized you.
You didn't really know them,but they read your blog and they
said hey you're Martin Klaasen.
You wrote that blog, which Iguess gives you a lot of
(27:51):
satisfaction as well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I mean, it sort of gives reason to keep doing what
I'm doing, because you know thatyou're you're enriching other
people's lives with yourknowledge, your expertise.
What they do with it is is notreally that's relevant, but it's
the fact that you can help themin some way.
(28:16):
Um, you, you don't know wherethey are in their in their
career, in their personal life.
Recently, I've taken upmentoring as well with people
that maybe are looking for acareer change or a change within
the lighting industry or wantsome motivation to grow further.
(28:36):
That's where I think myexpertise will be very helpful.
That's where I think myexpertise will be very helpful,
because one of the things thatmost of lighting designers or
designers in general don't learnis how to do business.
And you know what I went throughto set up my business and run
(28:58):
my business.
I had to learn.
I made many mistakes, and mostof the mistakes are not so much
in lighting design but in thefinancial administration of
doing business.
That's the most difficult thing.
You have clients who want towant you to be here yesterday.
You need you need to also lookafter your family.
(29:18):
You have to find a balancebetween life and personal life,
business life and personal life.
All these things you learnsometimes the hard way.
I was also not financiallyliterate enough to understand
that you should only, I mean, itsounds maybe trivial right now,
(29:41):
but you shouldn't spend moneyif you don't have it right.
Having invoiced a clientdoesn't mean you have the money
yet, right?
And at that time I thought, oh,I've invoiced the money, it's
fine, I'm going to get paid.
It's not in the bank until it'sin the bank.
It's not in the bank until it'sin the bank.
The other thing that you learnthe hard way is that expenses
(30:01):
keep on coming but income is notguaranteed, right, yeah?
Um, so these kind of lessons umhelp shape you to run, to run a
business.
Um, you have to take care thatyou look after that.
Um create some stability,financial stability, in the
company.
I went to near bankruptcy aswell, which you know that's a
(30:27):
big learning curve, but, yeah,so that's the sort of expertise
and knowledge that is nice toshare and it may help other
people to prevent or avoid someof the pitfalls of being a
lighting designer.
Yeah, which is not only aboutlighting design, it's also about
(30:47):
balancing a business with beingcreative.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
So this book, Light Talk, is full of your
experiences.
Yes, daily experiences.
Yes, so a lot of the thingsthat you just talked about,
these are things that youcaptured in the book, right,
yeah, yeah, do you?
You still have insights thatyou take away from the things
that you wrote at the time whenyou wrote this?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
yeah, there are things that are still as actual
as it was 10 years ago when Iwrote it.
You know things like your dailydose of daylight, which, when I
wrote it, I think it was 2011,.
2012 or something around therethat you need your daily input
(31:37):
of daylight, and nowadays wetalk about human-centric
lighting, circadian rhythms andall that.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, it's very actual still today, but that
wasn't the thing back then.
Yes, no, not really.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
It wasn't the term that we used in lighting design.
It was something that was justcoming.
You know, in the view of somedesigners that that would be
important, so there's quite alot of things like that.
But the book in itself isreally about my daily life as a
line designer.
So one day it deals aboutissues that I have with a
(32:11):
contractor or a supplier.
The other day it's abouttypical site issues when I go to
commission a project, or justthe actual traveling from from,
let's say, singapore, to mumbaiin india, yeah, or to china, the
things that you'll come across.
Sometimes it hasn't even to dospecifically with line design,
(32:31):
but traveling from a to b, fromone country and culture to
another country and culture arealso big impacts on how you run
your business.
It may be about lightingtechnologies, new things that
came up, things that you dealwith in terms of application
(32:54):
experience, client problems,anything that happened on the
day.
It were never long blogs, maybea few hundred words only, but
it sort of captured the mood ofthe day.
I remember riding the blog inthe back of a taxi driving to
the busy streets of Mumbai,because a lot of traffic jam
(33:19):
there and a lot of noise outside, and I would sometimes even
wind down the window just to getthe noise in the field and then
meanwhile I was on my laptoptyping away the story of the day
, you know, yeah, so these kindof things.
That's that book, that's LightTalk 1.
That's really about theexperiences that you go through.
It also talks about my holidaysbecause it's literally every
(33:42):
single day, so including when Iwent on holidays to France or
other countries, going to marketand then the experience of
daylight, sunrise you know,sunrise in the morning, or
lights at the market or anythingseeing light fixtures being
(34:04):
sold.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Did you find it challenging to blog every single
day, or were there days whereyou didn't have any inspiration
or you were not in a position tobe able to write a blog?
Did that ever happen, or was itjust?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
no, once you got into the routine.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
That's it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's actually interesting.
In the beginning I thought, oh,I'm not into the routine,
that's it.
Yeah, it's actually interesting.
In the beginning I thought, oh,I'm not sure if I'll be able to
do that, but as I started, Iwasn't short of subjects at all.
On the contrary, In thebeginning it went so well that I
actually created emergencysubjects that.
I just stored away, just in caseas a backup if I couldn't find
(34:44):
a subject.
But I never run out of out ofsubjects which was really
interesting.
And still today, as you know,I've picked up blogging again
and and now I'm doing it on aweekly basis, but I sort of
never run out of out of subjects.
There's always something I knowwhat to write about.
So no, interestingly enough, Inever run out of subjects, but I
(35:11):
did always have quite a numberof, let's say, backup subjects
in case, in case, you needed ityeah, all right, so let's talk
now about this book.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
This is your second book, as the title explains
explains it's 16 years in thelife of light.
So you've gone from 365 days ofblogging to 16 years.
What's?
What's that all about?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
yeah, so, um, in 2003 , um, I was invited to write a
column for a magazine calledLighting Today.
Lighting Today was created inSingapore and, through a contact
of mine, I knew the editor andhe asked me well, you're a
(35:57):
prominent lighting designer,would you like to write a column
in every issue of lightingmagazine, writing today magazine
?
so that was monthly I'm guessingthat was no, that was a
quarterly okay, or quarterlyyeah, um.
So four issues a year, um, andI.
It was again a challenge.
(36:18):
I didn't know if I would beable to, because that was a bit
more than just blogging.
That was literally a whole A4size, you know.
But I said, yeah, let's just doit, because you know you have
to sometimes throw yourself atthe deep end.
And I said, okay, let me do it,I'll see where I go.
So that started in 2003.
(36:42):
And I actually did it for 16years.
So this book is sort of acollection of all my articles,
every single thing that I wrotefrom 2003 till 2019.
When I decided that was justbefore COVID, so still quite
recently, 2019?
.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Just a few years ago when they decided to go digital.
Yeah, so I wrote in a paperversion of the magazine, but in
2019, they decided to stop thepaper version and go digital,
which was also for me a goodmoment to say, okay, it has been
nice 16 years.
And then I had, like, all these16 years of articles, what do I
(37:25):
do with it?
Which was really interestingbecause these articles also give
a sort of a bird's-eye viewabout what happened in the
lighting industry from 2003 till2019, which, in a way, saw the
arrival of LEDs, because in 2003, basically, lighting LEDs were
(37:49):
not the thing yet.
So the whole development andarrival of LEDs is described in
there.
Okay, all the way till 2019,when we start talking about
smart and intelligent lighting,and in between there are things
like human-centric lighting andthings like that.
So it gives a really niceoverview or how the lighting
(38:10):
industry evolved from the early2000s till nearly 2019-20 so
it's a really.
Yeah, it's a really nicebackground and in a way, I
started this before that one.
Light talk one.
Yeah, um, and in fact, thelaunch of light talk one is in
(38:30):
light talk two, because Iactually wrote about it in one
of the magazine articles, in oneof the the columns.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, so you've gone from a more personal lens.
So we were talking about yourpersonal journey just before,
which is also in this book.
Then you brought it out andactually this is a journey of
lighting more generally as anindustry a reflection of the
lighting industry and the evolvethe how.
(38:57):
The evolution of the lightingindustry over over 16 years, so
it's actually quite interestingto read them sort of together,
if you're really nice uh sort ofthe balanced background yeah,
the personal input and and thegeneral lighting industry.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Uh, what happened in the background as well?
Yeah, yeah, and now I'm, I'm,I'm looking at the next one.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Um, since this year's 45 years that I've been in the
lighting design business, I'mplanning to do Light Talk 3,
which will be 45 years in thelife of Light Talk.
So what lens is that going?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
to have, or you don't know yet that will be.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Personal general, everything, Everything.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Universal that will have bits of Light Talk 1, bits
of Light Talk 2, and a lot ofpersonal experiences.
Yeah, basically from the day Ifinished my studies to today.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Almost like a biography actually.
It could be sort of.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
I mean some details will not be in there.
It could be sort of, but I meansome details will not be in
there.
Everything that relates to myjourney within lighting and
lighting design from my earlydays.
What formed me from my familyside, from my mother and my
father, from having you guys askids and a family, to where I'm
(40:29):
today in australia.
Um, yeah that that I'm onlyhalfway, so there's still a way
to go, but um, it's coming.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
The journey is just beginning.
So we've talked about yourbooks.
We've talked about yourpersonal journey.
Let's now touch on some otherelements that you have been
heavily involved in.
You've mentored, yeah, um, anumber of people you have been
heavily involved in.
You've mentored a number ofpeople.
You have also donemasterclasses, but in terms of
(40:56):
mentoring, I think they kind ofgo hand in hand with the journey
and the mentoring and thatwhole.
You know the takeaways thatyou've been able to get from
that lifetime of being in thelighting industry.
Where.
How have you found mentoringother people?
Um, maybe talk a little bitabout your experience as being a
(41:20):
mentor rather than beingmentored.
Um, what aspects do you feelthat you are quite good at being
able to to help others with?
I mean, what have othersspecifically asked you to mentor
?
With certain parts of thelighting industry maybe?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
give us a bit of background about that mentoring.
It's always hard to say, becausementoring individuals has a
specific develops, a specificrelationship with that
individual and they all havedifferent backgrounds, right,
(42:02):
and people are in differentstages of their life as well.
They can be just young andstarting, they can be more
advanced and wanting a change indirection.
So the mentoring is very muchabout listening.
It's not about telling somebodywhat to do.
I think that's one of the keythings that I also got from
(42:23):
being mentored myself.
You need to be able to listen,understand where somebody is at
and not try to impose what youthink is best right, because
that's your point of view.
Yeah, and the difficult thingis to really understand where
somebody is, where they're at intheir lives, what sort of
decisions they have to make,what their passion is, what
(42:48):
their drive is, what it is thatmakes them think, and so that's
the part of mentoring that ismaybe not easy for everybody,
but I think the more experienceyou have and the more you have
dealt with people in generalwhich of course I have because
(43:09):
I've been dealing with so manydifferent people, whether it's a
contractor, a client, acolleague, a team member, you
know a supplier, a manufacturerthey all come from different
backgrounds.
So you learn along the way howto first of all, listen, what it
is they want and secondly,understand the background, the
(43:31):
cultural, cultural background,the economical background, uh,
geographical background.
That all comes into play whenyou want to sort of mentor
somebody.
You need to understand wheresomebody is at that particular
point, what it is.
Some of them don't know whatdirection they want to go, and
(43:51):
that's why they come to you.
So you try to unlock what it isthat drives them, that gives
them a feeling of satisfactionor completion.
So that's the sort of thingthat you try to unlock.
Completion.
So that's the sort of thingthat you try to unlock.
(44:11):
You, you want them to find thedirection themselves by offering
options.
Right, you can't be saying, oh,this is what you should do.
I don't think that's the rightway of mentoring.
I think the right way ofmentoring is saying, well, this
is where you are, these are thesort of options that could be of
your interest, something thatreally would ignite your passion
(44:32):
to do, and then with that youcan develop a sort of a schedule
of what to do and how to reach.
But you need that person to findthat path themselves, because
it has to be something that theyfeel like it's theirs.
(44:52):
They have come to theconclusion that that's something
that they want to do.
What you provide is theframework, maybe the options,
and maybe also show what thepotential pitfalls could be if
you go in one direction or theother directions.
So you look at the variousvalues that are related to
(45:16):
certain directions or certainthings, but also the positives
and the negatives.
So you need to give thatoverview so somebody can make
their own decisions about whatit is that attracts them to go
into that direction.
Then, of course, you canencourage.
I mean, part of a mentor isalso to encourage somebody right
(45:38):
, if they feel really optimisticand positive about something,
then it's also important toencourage and support.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Did it ever happen that values did not align and
that somebody did not find theirpassion?
And they realized maybe this isnot for me?
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I actually had one mentee that initially wanted to
get mentored in developingfurther into lighting and then
that particular person suddenlydidn't feel like lighting was
(46:27):
something.
So there was a point at at atone moment that we decided that
it didn't make sense to continue, because that person was not
aligned to continue in the pathof lighting, my, my mentorship.
(46:47):
I mean, I'm not, I'm not acounselor, right?
No, so there has to be adistinct separation between
being a counselor and being amentor, right?
So at that point, when thatperson was no longer interested
in pursuing a career in lightingbut wanted to go into a
(47:08):
different direction, more intoeducation and and other things,
community work, um, I decidedthat, and and that person also
decided that it would be betterto separate, and we just ended
it on a friendly, friendly basis, but with the knowledge for
that person that my door isalways open.
(47:30):
I think as a mentor, I don'tfeel my task ends any ever.
You know, if somebody that I'vementored, after a year or two
you would like to come back.
So, like I'm here, you know Iwould need some further.
Yeah, for me it's fine.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
So is there an ideal length of time to mentor someone
?
Or, you know, should it be sixmonths a year is ongoingly?
What would be sort of anoptimal amount of time to be
mentoring someone over the?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
course of it depends really what they achieve.
To me, I think mentorship um ispotentially a lifetime, uh sort
of undertaking, right.
I don't think it can stop justafter two or three months, right
, but the first few months maybe very helpful is setting
(48:23):
somebody off in a certaindirection, right, and then they
can develop themselves and andit's not like you need to to
hold their hand all the time buta mentor is there um to help
somebody when they maybe don'tsee which what the next step
would have to be how often wouldyou meet up with someone, for
(48:46):
instance to um, to find out whatneeds to be done next?
Certainly in the beginning canbe weekly or two weekly.
Just seven an hour and that'senough.
Yeah, it's one, two hours.
One two hours maybe on a weeklybasis or two weekly basis
depends on what the achievementis and what?
Speaker 2 (49:08):
I guess it's different with every some people
you know most of the people arequite busy.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
They have their own lives.
So it's not like you can.
You can go to school every dayand, and you know, get something
.
No, it has to be fitted intheir personal lives, their
business lives.
So we find that one or twohours a week or every two weeks
is sufficient, and then, ofcourse, that's just our personal
(49:33):
interaction.
After that, I generally leavethem with a bit of homework,
right?
So, yeah, after we have talkedit through, I say okay, this is
what we discussed today, this iswhat I want you to do for the
coming week, so that when wemeet again, I want you to do
this, this, this, or give me afeedback on this, this and that
(49:56):
so mentoring is highlypersonalized to the person.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Absolutely.
That you're mentoring yeah,master your master classes, I'm
guessing is more of a broadercontext in which to to learn
from.
Let's now talk about yourmaster classes, because that's
an all that's also a veryimportant, I think, element as
(50:22):
part of your light talk platform.
Yeah, where did that come from?
Like, what's your approach interms of your master?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
classes.
So what I want to do is to sortof like I've written my books.
They are sort of general innature this is my life.
But the master classes are verysubject driven, right.
So that will be about maybe thebusiness of lighting design or
(50:52):
how to do conceptual design, orI'm going to go into lighting
application.
So it will be very subjectdirected and I want to create
little modules for about 45minutes each that gives a deeper
insight on one specific subject, right, so that people can
(51:14):
accumulate the specificknowledge about that subject.
Some subject may be spread overtwo or three modules.
I have started now with six orseven modules I've done now, but
there will be some more modulesthat will be very specific on
applications, and in that Ishare my 45 years of knowledge
(51:37):
of doing things and of courseit's my experience.
It doesn't mean that that's theway to do it, it's just I'm
sharing I'm sharing what I didand how I did things, the the,
the pitfalls that I came across,the things that I learned, most
of all because you learn fromyour mistakes.
Yeah, so I'm sharing also mymistakes and and what I learned
(52:00):
along the way because, as I saidin the beginning, you learn
also from a lot of people'smistakes.
Exactly, if I share my mistakes, people can learn from my
mistakes as well, correct?
Speaker 2 (52:12):
How many modules have you got at the moment with your
masterclasses?
We've got seven modules.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Do you?
Yeah, that's more about thegeneral aspects of lighting
design.
Okay, I think it's important tounderstand what it takes to
become a lighting designer, whatit takes to deliver the service
as a as a practicing lightingdesigner.
(52:37):
So I will go through all theaspects from designing, from
specifications, from running abusiness as lighting designer,
how to deal with, how to dealwith the lighting technology.
That's all part of the firstseven modules, and once these
are done, then we're going tostep into actual applications.
(53:01):
So building on that initial baseof a masterclass, I think you
need to have a generalunderstanding about lighting
design first the basics oflighting design, so to speak and
once you have the basics, thenyou can move into specific
applications.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
And these are all available on your Light Talk
website, which is lighttalkspace, so people can participate in
your masterclasses by basicallyputting your name down and you
can follow it in your own time.
Would you recommend also, Iguess, coupling that with
(53:36):
mentoring at the same time, orit really doesn't matter what?
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Well, the thing is that we are giving the first
mentor or consultancy sessionfor free, so people who want to
know more, they can just log inand book an appointment.
I'm happy to give a freesession where we can discuss
what people need one or wouldlike to do, and from there they
(54:00):
can decide what they want tofollow and how they want to
follow up.
So I think there's plenty ofmaterials there, everything from
your experiences in light talkone and light talk two, combined
with which reflects my 45 yearsas a lighting designer in the
business and a lot of that wouldhave gone into your master
classes as well, of course ofcourse, it's not only light
(54:22):
design, so, mind you, it's alsothe cultural and geographical
experience that I had by doingprojects.
I'm not just doing projectsjust in Australia or in
Singapore or whatever.
I've done projects all over theworld.
So, it comes with my experienceof doing works and projects in
China, works and projects inIndia, philippines, australia,
(54:43):
europe, right, so that is also acultural background.
And dealing with contractors inthe Middle East for argument's
sake, it's all a bit different.
So that cultural background andgeographical spread of
experience also is a very bigpart of the knowledge sharing
that comes with this.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now you mentioned that you were45 years in the business.
Yeah, is there a lot for youbeyond lighting, I guess, maybe
in a practical sense, your corelighting design?
Yeah, is there a shift awayfrom that to more of an
(55:28):
educational type of role withinlighting design?
Speaker 1 (55:32):
or is it going to be something completely different?
Let's put it this way thenumber one priority when you get
older is your health.
In order to keep your health ata good level, you need to
eliminate stress.
In order to eliminate stress, Iprobably need to do a bit less
(55:53):
of project design and being in ahectic environment where I have
to satisfy clients all the time.
So that probably well, it doesmean that I'm going to step back
from my active lighting designactivities.
I will still be involvedbecause it's in my blood.
I've done it for 45 years.
You'll never retire I can'treally retire but being more
(56:15):
remotely involved, let the newgeneration take over the
day-to-day activities.
I will be still mentoring theteam and then, yeah, all the
experience that I've potted upover the last 45 years, now I
want to sort of put it out thereand share with the industry.
(56:36):
I will do that through thebooks.
I'll do that through the LightTalk website.
Obviously.
I also do that by publicspeaking, and I've been already
invited in several events forthis year.
I share my knowledge throughpublic speaking as well.
We're going to do an audioversion of this book as well,
(57:01):
absolutely.
So there will be an e-book, anaudio book of that as well,
because a lot of people usetheir mobile phone and are on
the road all the time, so nowthey can listen to the to the
light talk books as well.
But yeah, that's that I'll bemoving to that, meaning I will
be more doing lighting when Iwant it rather than on yours.
(57:26):
I have to do it on your terms,basically my terms.
I think by now I've earned my,my position in the industry to
be doing it more when I want itrather than because I have to.
Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
I think that's a great way to end our little
discussion here.
And, yeah, I think everyoneshould check out Light Talk.
For sure, lighttalkspace youcan find it out online.
You can continue readingMartin's blogs, maybe check out
the master class if that'ssomething you'd like to tap into
(58:03):
as well as maybe… Consultanciesas well With consultancy.
Speaker 1 (58:08):
I'm certainly very keen on doing consultancies as
well, because it's somethingthat I can use all my my 45
years of experience to helppeople on the way give insights.
Don't forget, I've had a lot ofinteractions also with
manufacturers, with people thatdo innovations in the lighting
industry.
So that knowledge also withmanufacturers, with people that
do innovations in the lightingindustry, so that knowledge also
(58:30):
helps manufacturers to maybedevelop new lighting application
oriented products All thatknowledge I have and, yeah, I'd
love to share that, yeah,perfect.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
You can't make all the mistakes yourself, right.
So, you have to look at whatother people do as well and
learn from what they teach youand what they learned along the
way as well.
To me, it doesn't make sense ifall my knowledge stays in my
head.
It doesn't serve anybody else.
I always felt the need to share, because it's very gratifying
(00:23):
to be able to share knowledgeand then see that you can change
sometimes just one person'slife.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's not often that we get to sit down together and
have a chat about somethingthat's not business related,
even though we work in the sameoffice, sort of.
This is business.
So here we are, welcome.
I'm sitting down with MartinKlaassen, as you know, founder
and principal of Klaassen Lightand Design.
I've been working with Martinfor quite some years now in the
(00:58):
office in Perth here, but todaywe're talking about something a
little bit different.
But today we're talking aboutsomething a little bit different
.
We've also been on a littlepersonal journey to basically
put together Light Talk, whichis your personal brand, right,
and it's something that's a bitmore, I guess, dear to your
(01:19):
heart.
I mean, you put a lot of energyand effort all those years into
developing your core lightingdesign business of class and
lighting design, and I'm goingto get into as well asking about
how that all happened.
You know from how you got intolighting, your inspiration, um,
your journey through gettinginto class and lighting design,
(01:40):
and then also what we aretalking about today, which is
the Light Talk platform whichyou have set up, and I've helped
you create that over the lastcouple of years as well.
But why not start with yourpersonal journey First of all?
What inspired you to get intolighting in the first place and
(02:01):
how did you sort of end uphaving your own practice?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it's always an interesting question.
Um, I'm actually an accidentallighting designer.
I never set out to become alighting designer.
Um, when I finished my studies,I did industrial design.
I got a master's degree in that.
Yeah, I was looking for a job,and one of the companies that I
applied in is Philips.
Nowadays it's called Signify,but at the time it was called
(02:28):
Philips, philips Lighting.
No, it was actually not PhilipsLighting.
I didn't even apply for PhilipsLighting.
I went to Philips.
There was an advertisement for ajob in consumer products and I
thought, as an industrialdesigner, designing consumer
products would be typicallysomething that would suit me.
So I went one day and when Iarrived there, they said what
(02:52):
would you like to do?
And I thought what do you mean?
I'm coming for this specificjob position.
So now we have a few of them.
What do you think aboutlighting design?
And I had no idea what lightingdesign was.
I said that sounds interesting,happy to have a look.
As it happened, that departmentwas just around the corner from
(03:15):
where I was having my interviewand he said well, I can make an
appointment for you right now.
You can go there and see ifthat's something that you are
interested in.
So I went there and it wastaken away straight away um.
There was about a group of 4050 people doing lighting designs
on big projects olympic gamesdid you even know what lighting
(03:38):
design was?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
no, I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I thought it was designing light bulbs or things
with theater lighting or thingslike that.
I had no idea that somethinglike actual lighting design
existed.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Did you think it was designing light fittings in the
beginning?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, I thought more because I was a product designer
.
I thought there was moreproducts rather than consultancy
or services or things like that.
But then I saw what they weredoing and I saw how they were
drawing plans and creatingconcepts for stadiums and for
buildings and so, wow, I wasblown away and I liked the vibe
(04:15):
on the department and I said yes, straight away.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And that was in 1979.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
So I'm always somebody that if I like it, I
don't hesitate and I go for it.
I I can turn around 20 times,but I will still come back there
.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So I decided to do it and say yes was there something
specifically that captured yourum inspiration or your you know
?
You were like, yes, this was it.
Was it a particular part of theprocess or just being able to
have a say in the outcome of theproject?
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I just liked the vibe of the department.
I liked the way they wereworking.
It attracted me.
The projects that they weredoing.
It was not just something justin Holland, because that was
Holland at the time.
They were doing jobs all overthe world.
That was also something that Ithought, wow, that's also
interesting.
(05:09):
I was just captivated by whatthey were doing and I had no
idea where it was going to bringme.
And in fact, my first year Ididn't do any projects.
My first year I was just doingresearch and helping some of the
department heads developingstrategies for lighting and I
(05:30):
did things about museum lighting, I studied infrared and
ultraviolet lighting and someother things like that.
But it's only after a year thatI started to become involved in
projects.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So you never actually did a proper lighting course?
No, you pretty much learnedeverything you knew, or that you
now know on the job.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
On the job, hands-on.
Of course, my design study,industrial design, helps you
with the design process.
So in a way, you could say, yes, I have the design experience
because I knew what conceptualdesign was, I knew what design
development was, I knew how tocreate details, work things out
and all that and createdocumentation.
(06:13):
All that I knew, but notspecifically for lighting.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
What were some I don't know if you can call them
mistakes or things that youdidn't know that you think I
wish I actually knew thatearlier.
You know that you were onlyexposed to as a result of
learning on the job, and it'sthey're actually quite important
(06:40):
things.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Maybe it's to do with the process or yeah, I mean,
these are all small littlethings, but I had an interesting
approach because I wassurrounded by experts.
So when I started in theproject business, there were a
lot of people that had been inthe lighting design at that
department for years and years.
So my approach was I don't knowtoo much, why don't I ask a
(07:01):
couple of experts?
So I would form my designapproach by interviewing some of
my colleagues and say, okay,you're an expert on this, how
would you approach it?
Then I would go to the next one.
I said how would you do it?
And, interestingly, afterhaving asked two or three of
them, they all had differentapproaches.
So, I sort of out of that, I gota bit of an idea.
(07:23):
I like that, I like that, andthere's obviously not one
solution to a lighting issue orlighting problem, and so that's
how I sort of gradually buildsmy experience.
Then, of course, once you startdoing lighting design, there's
always little things.
I can't remember all of them,but there's always little things
that you that you learn about,little things that you that you
(07:46):
learn about I don't know thatthe number of light fittings,
position, glare, these are small, little things.
That that everybody is likewhen you drive, when you have
your driving license, you onlylearn to drive once you have
your license.
So I learned lighting designalong the way and it's a lot of
little, small things, um, butyeah, you learn from your
mistakes, right, andinterestingly, you also learn
(08:07):
from other people's mistakes, Ithink that's not a very big
takeaway that you, you don't.
You can't make all the mistakesyourself, right so you have to
look at what other people do aswell and learn from what they
teach you and what they learnedalong the way as well.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So would you say early on that you had mentors in
the business?
Absolutely.
Are there a few key people thatyou looked up to or that guided
you the most through thatjourney?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I think within Philips, I would say gerrit van
de belt was my main mentor, hewas my boss.
Um, he was the one also sayingto me martin, don't fret about
it, sleep on it, tomorrow isanother day, right.
Right, because sometimes youhave a tendency of reacting
emotionally on on a problem orif you're confronted with issues
(09:03):
, he said he always told me justjust sleep on it.
Yeah, then we review ittomorrow.
Think like, so he's been, he'sbeen really good about, about
helping me away, helping me, uh,progress through to the sort of
diplomatic minefield, becauselife design is not only
(09:23):
designing, it's also dealingwith, with clients, is also
dealing with your colleagues, isdealing with, uh, contractors
on site.
Yeah, so that's a lot ofpolitical impact diplomatic
approaches on how you youapproach.
(09:44):
I remember one day I was inSaudi Arabia and meeting some
Sheikh or some important guy forwhom I was still with Philips
at that time.
We were presenting a projectand then the big boss asked me
what do you think of this?
I thought maybe we could do itthis way or this way, and it was
(10:06):
a ridiculous proposal.
I don't think it was reallygood, but I couldn't tell, of
course, that it was not a gooddesign.
So what I learned to say is oh,that's not a bad idea, we could
do it.
What about if we do it this wayand this way?
So, having validated him infront of his staff and then come
(10:28):
up with another option, was adiplomatic way of saying well,
your solution was not reallygood, but why don't we do it
this way?
That's the sort of thing thatI've learned along the way how
to listen, how to deal withclients, in validating and
respecting them, but alsoputting your own point of view
(10:49):
across.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And doing that in a very respectful way.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, I think lighting design also is very
much about listening.
You need to really listen toyour clients.
You need to understand wherethey're coming from.
It's not only your way or thehighway.
You really need to understandwhat their worries are, what
their concerns are and how youcan address that.
And then in the process,obviously you try to push
(11:14):
forward what you think would bethe right solution.
But it's their money, it'stheir project, so you need to be
respectful of what they want tospend.
You need to be respectful ofwhat they want to spend.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
If you feel that they need to spend more, then you
need to educate them why theyshould spend a bit more, what
the benefits and added valuesare.
So it sounds like already at avery early moment in your career
, it already helped shape a lotof those aspects which you are
actually putting in your LightTalk platform for others to make
use of.
We'll get to the nitty-grittyand what Light Talk is all about
(11:54):
, but still on the topic of yourjourney, right, how did you
then move forward from Philipsto where you are, I guess,
moving?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, that's also an interesting thing because I
always wanted to be sort ofindependent.
I never really liked thecorporate environment where you
had to clock in, you know, witha time card when you go into the
office and clock again when youget out, and all this sort of
(12:28):
over-regulated workingenvironments was never really my
thing.
So there was always this desireto to be an independent,
entrepreneurial sort of person.
But I still spent 12 years, 12and a half years, with Philips
and at one point of time I wasposted by see.
(12:51):
I had the advantage that firstof all I was multilingual, so
besides Dutch, french andEnglish and a bit of German,
that was always helpful.
So I was internationallyschooled and trained, which made
me really suitable within theorganization to travel and
represent the client.
(13:12):
So I always traveled, even forPhilips I traveled quite a lot.
So at one point of time theydecided to post me in Singapore
to develop their projectbusiness over there, because
they just had salesrepresentatives.
Nobody knew really aboutprojects.
Projects were all dealt with inHolland.
So they wanted to develop moreapplication oriented and like a
(13:36):
team that was able to developprojects.
So I was posted there and mymain task was to develop this
project business, the projectsupport in asia.
So that was where, where I wasin, in singapore.
I came there in 1988.
Uh, what's quite challenging isa sort of a culture shock,
obviously from from uh, the, thenetherlands to to a tropical
(13:59):
country like singapore,singapore, being an expatriate
there.
But I had super support.
But my region of support wasstretching all the way from
Korea in the north to Australiain the south, and so it was
quite a big area and I needed totrain the people and I had been
(14:23):
already training.
So the advantage with maybejust a step back as a with my
education and my knowledge, Iwas able quite quickly, within
the Philips infrastructure, tobecome also a trainer.
So after a few years, after Ihad done a couple of projects, I
was also integrated in theirtraining system.
(14:46):
So they would receive peoplefrom all over the world to their
main head office in Eindhovenand we would train them and
explain to them about lightingand lighting technologies and
lighting applications.
And I was one of those teachersin the earlier days as well and
lighting applications and I wasone of those teachers in the
earlier days as well.
So I already had in me theability to present and to
(15:11):
explain things, which of coursecame in handy when I went to
Singapore and had to train therepresentatives in where there's
Bangkok, jakarta, manila, etc.
So I did that representativesin where is Bangkok, jakarta,
manila, etc.
So I did that.
But then there was areorganization in the in the
early 90s I think was around1990 Philips, I think it was
(15:34):
called Operation Centurion.
They were going to cut jobs andthere were, there were going to
be the changes and things likethat and that's all.
And it was also the first timeI got into contact with actual
lighting designers because, mindyou, before that I was a
lighting designer within acorporate manufacturer right, I
(15:59):
didn't know other than lightingdesigners were part of a
manufacturer.
But actually when I was inSingapore I got into contact
with actual independent lightingdesigners, people that, like
architects, were having apractice providing lighting
design services.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So up to that point you hadn't met outside lighting
designers?
No, Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I had met architects, um, but never actual lighting
designers.
Maybe I had, but I wasn'treally aware of that.
They were independent.
But that opened my eyes.
Oh, this is actually aprofession of independent
lighting consultancy.
Yeah, um, and I got to talk tosome of them and they were
(16:45):
actually a bit upset about whatI was doing there, because I was
providing lighting designservices as part of a
manufacturer, while they weredoing it as part of an
independent practice and theywould say, well, you don't
charge fees and you do it forfree and we need to earn our
money with these services.
(17:06):
Was that the?
main contentious issue or otherpoints of difference.
No, that was one of the triggersthat I realized like, oh yes,
there is actually.
So I set in movement within thePhilips organization how do I
call that?
How do I call that?
A business strategy to createan independent lighting design
(17:31):
consultancy within the Philipsorganization.
To validate that also, to makeit like also a department that
charges fees for its work, tomake it more in balance with the
actual independent consultants.
Yeah, right Now, I did a wholebusiness plan for that.
It never saw the actual daylight.
(17:52):
Okay, and when I had done thewhole business strategy to
create an independentconsultancy and Philips didn't
want to go ahead with it, I said, okay, then I'll do it myself.
And that was basically the themoment that I decided to move
away, also with the uncertaintywithin the philips organization.
Right, I decided, okay, timefor me to move on.
(18:14):
This is maybe my moment.
Um, and I uh resigned while insingapore and uh started my own,
uh, private.
And you never looked back.
No, no, and interestingly, ithad never been done before that
an expatriate resigned whilebeing away.
So even me leaving Philips alsocreate all kinds of interesting
(18:41):
things within the companybecause they had never dealt
with somebody who was stilloverseas while resigning.
Interesting, yeah, but anyhow,it all worked out and yeah, you
can say, I never looked back.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So did you know very early on that you wanted to be a
teacher?
No, did you back then know thatyou wanted to write a book?
No, let alone two books.
No, maybe more.
Yeah, you didn't know that youwere going to be mentoring.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
No, not really.
One of my other mentors was mygrandmother.
She was an architect one of thefirst female architects in
France and I always admired herindependency and her lack of
(19:35):
being influenced by other people.
She did what she wanted to do,regardless what other people
thought of her, and she was alsoan educator.
She wrote books right.
So there's a lot of synergiesbetween what she did writing
books about architecture,writing books for children.
(19:57):
She was also an educator Duringthe war.
She taught her own children.
She was also an educator duringthe war.
She taught her own children.
And that spirit of, you know,being passionate about what she
loved doing, her drive to getthings done regardless of what
(20:18):
other people thought of her, Ithought has always inspired me
and I think maybe book writinghas been sort of coming from her
side Deep down inside.
Yeah, she wrote many books, evenbooks that weren't really done
for selling, where they were notbestsellers or something, but
(20:40):
just the joy of writing andaccomplishing something, and
that's what I with my own booksas well.
My first book uh, light talk,um, a year in the life of a
lighting designer um, wasn't abook that I set out to write.
As you know know, I wrote, Iset myself a challenge to write
(21:03):
a blog about lighting for oneyear, for 365 days, not with the
idea to create a book, but Ijust wanted to challenge myself.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Well, that was actually going to be my question
about, you know, light Talk.
What came first?
The book or the blog, blog, andwas it ever meant to be more
than that?
No, so.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Alex and I went to see a movie called Julia and
Julia, which is about a verywell-known cook who has a
cookbook and then another ladywho challenges herself to cook a
recipe a day out of that bookand then blog about it.
And when we left the movie Isaid, well, maybe I could do
(21:51):
something like that about linedesign.
Why don't I challenge myself towrite about my life as a line
designer by blogging about itevery day for 365 days?
So I set myself that challenge,and I think it was in October
2009, just before theprofessional line design
convention in Berlin, and I saidthat would be a good point to
(22:15):
start this big convention withall the line designers around
the world.
So that's when I started and Ididn't know where I was going.
I would just say let me see ifI can do this 365 days, yeah,
and ultimately I did.
Rain or shine.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So where did you?
How did you go about writingthe blog?
Was it just something you wasit on a website straight away,
or did you write it just by hand?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
How did that happen?
What was the process?
I don't remember the first,because I started in in berlin
um at the convention and, as Iwas there, I shared my.
I think that with, withwordpress or some some program,
you could create a website.
So I created something right.
But when I shared my idea ofblogging with the organizers,
(23:09):
they said, oh, at that time itwas the Professional Lighting
Designers Association that wasrunning this convention and we
said, oh, we'll be looking forsomebody to blog about lighting.
Okay, so they took up the ideaof blogging and they put my blog
on their website.
All right, I see so, andinitially my blog was called
(23:32):
Perceptions, but they thought,nah, that's not very catchy, was
that something that they namedit?
Yeah?
So they said, what about light?
Talk Light, as in not heavytalking about light, and and you
know, talk, because you knowyou talk about lighting.
So I thought, yeah, that soundsgood.
So within one or two weeks wechanged it to light talk and it
(23:56):
became a feature on theirwebsite for many, many years and
it had to reach out to all thelighting designers around the
world that were a member of theprofessional designers quite a
big yeah, so there were timeswhere I had like three to four
thousand views a month.
Oh wow, uh, just on my blogs.
Um, so it was really nice andpeople commented and and uh, to
(24:20):
the extent that at one point oftime, one of one of my followers
didn't see my blog for two daysand he sent me emails and
Martin, are you okay, I haven'tseen your blog.
Turned out that there was someissue in his country, but it
just shows you that I had somesome very intensive and very
(24:41):
dedicated followers at the time,which was really nice, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So let's talk about Light Talk, then, and I guess
your vision for Light Talk Iguess at some point in time the
concept of what Light Talk istoday went from being a blog
then to a book.
I guess that was a decision initself.
To compile everything into abook, yeah Right, a really good
(25:11):
way to actually look back ateverything you've written for
starters, but then as an overallconcept, what was your vision?
What did you intend Live Talkto do?
Or was that something that wasjust you didn't know at the time
, and then it developed as youwent along.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't know.
I'm very much like that with alot of things.
I know roughly the direction Iwant to go, but I don't always
know how it will evolve.
In this case, it started withthe blog, but then, as I grew
older and got more experiencedand more knowledgeable, I also
(25:54):
feel that there is a need forthe older generation to share
knowledge with the newergeneration.
Yeah, to me it doesn't makesense if all my knowledge stays
in my head.
It doesn't serve anybody else.
So I've always felt and thatcame already when we talked
(26:16):
about my Phillips days, when Iwas already training and sharing
knowledge and mentoring the newgeneration I always felt the
need to share, because it's verygratifying to be able to share
knowledge and then see that youcan change, sometimes just one
(26:38):
person's life.
I remember I was at an event inManila and one participant came
up afterwards and said Martin,I've been reading your blog and
I've got your book.
And I said, if you rememberthis and this, what you said
(26:58):
then made so much impact and itreally helped me turn around my
business and and gave memotivation.
Um, I've had it a few timeslike that and that's something
that's really gratifying thatyou know that you made an impact
on somebody in a positive wayby just sharing your, your, your
(27:19):
knowledge, your expertise orgiving general advice on how you
could deal with lighting or thebusiness of lighting design in
general.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And you never know who is actually reading or
listening or following.
I remember being with you onceat an event I don't remember
exactly which one but you gotstopped in the hallway by
someone who recognized you.
You didn't really know them,but they read your blog and they
said hey you're Martin Klaasen.
You wrote that blog, which Iguess gives you a lot of
(27:51):
satisfaction as well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I mean, it sort of gives reason to keep doing what
I'm doing, because you know thatyou're you're enriching other
people's lives with yourknowledge, your expertise.
What they do with it is is notreally that's relevant, but it's
the fact that you can help themin some way.
(28:16):
Um, you, you don't know wherethey are in their in their
career, in their personal life.
Recently, I've taken upmentoring as well with people
that maybe are looking for acareer change or a change within
the lighting industry or wantsome motivation to grow further.
(28:36):
That's where I think myexpertise will be very helpful.
That's where I think myexpertise will be very helpful,
because one of the things thatmost of lighting designers or
designers in general don't learnis how to do business.
And you know what I went throughto set up my business and run
(28:58):
my business.
I had to learn.
I made many mistakes, and mostof the mistakes are not so much
in lighting design but in thefinancial administration of
doing business.
That's the most difficult thing.
You have clients who want towant you to be here yesterday.
You need you need to also lookafter your family.
(29:18):
You have to find a balancebetween life and personal life,
business life and personal life.
All these things you learnsometimes the hard way.
I was also not financiallyliterate enough to understand
that you should only, I mean, itsounds maybe trivial right now,
(29:41):
but you shouldn't spend moneyif you don't have it right.
Having invoiced a clientdoesn't mean you have the money
yet, right?
And at that time I thought, oh,I've invoiced the money, it's
fine, I'm going to get paid.
It's not in the bank until it'sin the bank.
It's not in the bank until it'sin the bank.
The other thing that you learnthe hard way is that expenses
(30:01):
keep on coming but income is notguaranteed, right, yeah?
Um, so these kind of lessons umhelp shape you to run, to run a
business.
Um, you have to take care thatyou look after that.
Um create some stability,financial stability, in the
company.
I went to near bankruptcy aswell, which you know that's a
(30:27):
big learning curve, but, yeah,so that's the sort of expertise
and knowledge that is nice toshare and it may help other
people to prevent or avoid someof the pitfalls of being a
lighting designer.
Yeah, which is not only aboutlighting design, it's also about
(30:47):
balancing a business with beingcreative.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
So this book, Light Talk, is full of your
experiences.
Yes, daily experiences.
Yes, so a lot of the thingsthat you just talked about,
these are things that youcaptured in the book, right,
yeah, yeah, do you?
You still have insights thatyou take away from the things
that you wrote at the time whenyou wrote this?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
yeah, there are things that are still as actual
as it was 10 years ago when Iwrote it.
You know things like your dailydose of daylight, which, when I
wrote it, I think it was 2011,.
2012 or something around therethat you need your daily input
(31:37):
of daylight, and nowadays wetalk about human-centric
lighting, circadian rhythms andall that.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, it's very actual still today, but that
wasn't the thing back then.
Yes, no, not really.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
It wasn't the term that we used in lighting design.
It was something that was justcoming.
You know, in the view of somedesigners that that would be
important, so there's quite alot of things like that.
But the book in itself isreally about my daily life as a
line designer.
So one day it deals aboutissues that I have with a
(32:11):
contractor or a supplier.
The other day it's abouttypical site issues when I go to
commission a project, or justthe actual traveling from from,
let's say, singapore, to mumbaiin india, yeah, or to china, the
things that you'll come across.
Sometimes it hasn't even to dospecifically with line design,
(32:31):
but traveling from a to b, fromone country and culture to
another country and culture arealso big impacts on how you run
your business.
It may be about lightingtechnologies, new things that
came up, things that you dealwith in terms of application
(32:54):
experience, client problems,anything that happened on the
day.
It were never long blogs, maybea few hundred words only, but
it sort of captured the mood ofthe day.
I remember riding the blog inthe back of a taxi driving to
the busy streets of Mumbai,because a lot of traffic jam
(33:19):
there and a lot of noise outside, and I would sometimes even
wind down the window just to getthe noise in the field and then
meanwhile I was on my laptoptyping away the story of the day
, you know, yeah, so these kindof things.
That's that book, that's LightTalk 1.
That's really about theexperiences that you go through.
It also talks about my holidaysbecause it's literally every
(33:42):
single day, so including when Iwent on holidays to France or
other countries, going to marketand then the experience of
daylight, sunrise you know,sunrise in the morning, or
lights at the market or anythingseeing light fixtures being
(34:04):
sold.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Did you find it challenging to blog every single
day, or were there days whereyou didn't have any inspiration
or you were not in a position tobe able to write a blog?
Did that ever happen, or was itjust?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
no, once you got into the routine.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
That's it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's actually interesting.
In the beginning I thought, oh,I'm not into the routine,
that's it.
Yeah, it's actually interesting.
In the beginning I thought, oh,I'm not sure if I'll be able to
do that, but as I started, Iwasn't short of subjects at all.
On the contrary, In thebeginning it went so well that I
actually created emergencysubjects that.
I just stored away, just in caseas a backup if I couldn't find
(34:44):
a subject.
But I never run out of out ofsubjects which was really
interesting.
And still today, as you know,I've picked up blogging again
and and now I'm doing it on aweekly basis, but I sort of
never run out of out of subjects.
There's always something I knowwhat to write about.
So no, interestingly enough, Inever run out of subjects, but I
(35:11):
did always have quite a numberof, let's say, backup subjects
in case, in case, you needed ityeah, all right, so let's talk
now about this book.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
This is your second book, as the title explains
explains it's 16 years in thelife of light.
So you've gone from 365 days ofblogging to 16 years.
What's?
What's that all about?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
yeah, so, um, in 2003 , um, I was invited to write a
column for a magazine calledLighting Today.
Lighting Today was created inSingapore and, through a contact
of mine, I knew the editor andhe asked me well, you're a
(35:57):
prominent lighting designer,would you like to write a column
in every issue of lightingmagazine, writing today magazine
?
so that was monthly I'm guessingthat was no, that was a
quarterly okay, or quarterlyyeah, um.
So four issues a year, um, andI.
It was again a challenge.
(36:18):
I didn't know if I would beable to, because that was a bit
more than just blogging.
That was literally a whole A4size, you know.
But I said, yeah, let's just doit, because you know you have
to sometimes throw yourself atthe deep end.
And I said, okay, let me do it,I'll see where I go.
So that started in 2003.
(36:42):
And I actually did it for 16years.
So this book is sort of acollection of all my articles,
every single thing that I wrotefrom 2003 till 2019.
When I decided that was justbefore COVID, so still quite
recently, 2019?
.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Just a few years ago when they decided to go digital.
Yeah, so I wrote in a paperversion of the magazine, but in
2019, they decided to stop thepaper version and go digital,
which was also for me a goodmoment to say, okay, it has been
nice 16 years.
And then I had, like, all these16 years of articles, what do I
(37:25):
do with it?
Which was really interestingbecause these articles also give
a sort of a bird's-eye viewabout what happened in the
lighting industry from 2003 till2019, which, in a way, saw the
arrival of LEDs, because in 2003, basically, lighting LEDs were
(37:49):
not the thing yet.
So the whole development andarrival of LEDs is described in
there.
Okay, all the way till 2019,when we start talking about
smart and intelligent lighting,and in between there are things
like human-centric lighting andthings like that.
So it gives a really niceoverview or how the lighting
(38:10):
industry evolved from the early2000s till nearly 2019-20 so
it's a really.
Yeah, it's a really nicebackground and in a way, I
started this before that one.
Light talk one.
Yeah, um, and in fact, thelaunch of light talk one is in
(38:30):
light talk two, because Iactually wrote about it in one
of the magazine articles, in oneof the the columns.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, so you've gone from a more personal lens.
So we were talking about yourpersonal journey just before,
which is also in this book.
Then you brought it out andactually this is a journey of
lighting more generally as anindustry a reflection of the
lighting industry and the evolvethe how.
(38:57):
The evolution of the lightingindustry over over 16 years, so
it's actually quite interestingto read them sort of together,
if you're really nice uh sort ofthe balanced background yeah,
the personal input and and thegeneral lighting industry.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Uh, what happened in the background as well?
Yeah, yeah, and now I'm, I'm,I'm looking at the next one.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Um, since this year's 45 years that I've been in the
lighting design business, I'mplanning to do Light Talk 3,
which will be 45 years in thelife of Light Talk.
So what lens is that going?
Speaker 1 (39:37):
to have, or you don't know yet that will be.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Personal general, everything, Everything.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Universal that will have bits of Light Talk 1, bits
of Light Talk 2, and a lot ofpersonal experiences.
Yeah, basically from the day Ifinished my studies to today.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Almost like a biography actually.
It could be sort of.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
I mean some details will not be in there.
It could be sort of, but I meansome details will not be in
there.
Everything that relates to myjourney within lighting and
lighting design from my earlydays.
What formed me from my familyside, from my mother and my
father, from having you guys askids and a family, to where I'm
(40:29):
today in australia.
Um, yeah that that I'm onlyhalfway, so there's still a way
to go, but um, it's coming.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
The journey is just beginning.
So we've talked about yourbooks.
We've talked about yourpersonal journey.
Let's now touch on some otherelements that you have been
heavily involved in.
You've mentored, yeah, um, anumber of people you have been
heavily involved in.
You've mentored a number ofpeople.
You have also donemasterclasses, but in terms of
(40:56):
mentoring, I think they kind ofgo hand in hand with the journey
and the mentoring and thatwhole.
You know the takeaways thatyou've been able to get from
that lifetime of being in thelighting industry.
Where.
How have you found mentoringother people?
Um, maybe talk a little bitabout your experience as being a
(41:20):
mentor rather than beingmentored.
Um, what aspects do you feelthat you are quite good at being
able to to help others with?
I mean, what have othersspecifically asked you to mentor
?
With certain parts of thelighting industry maybe?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
give us a bit of background about that mentoring.
It's always hard to say, becausementoring individuals has a
specific develops, a specificrelationship with that
individual and they all havedifferent backgrounds, right,
(42:02):
and people are in differentstages of their life as well.
They can be just young andstarting, they can be more
advanced and wanting a change indirection.
So the mentoring is very muchabout listening.
It's not about telling somebodywhat to do.
I think that's one of the keythings that I also got from
(42:23):
being mentored myself.
You need to be able to listen,understand where somebody is at
and not try to impose what youthink is best right, because
that's your point of view.
Yeah, and the difficult thingis to really understand where
somebody is, where they're at intheir lives, what sort of
decisions they have to make,what their passion is, what
(42:48):
their drive is, what it is thatmakes them think, and so that's
the part of mentoring that ismaybe not easy for everybody,
but I think the more experienceyou have and the more you have
dealt with people in generalwhich of course I have because
(43:09):
I've been dealing with so manydifferent people, whether it's a
contractor, a client, acolleague, a team member, you
know a supplier, a manufacturerthey all come from different
backgrounds.
So you learn along the way howto first of all, listen, what it
is they want and secondly,understand the background, the
(43:31):
cultural, cultural background,the economical background, uh,
geographical background.
That all comes into play whenyou want to sort of mentor
somebody.
You need to understand wheresomebody is at that particular
point, what it is.
Some of them don't know whatdirection they want to go, and
(43:51):
that's why they come to you.
So you try to unlock what it isthat drives them, that gives
them a feeling of satisfactionor completion.
So that's the sort of thingthat you try to unlock.
Completion.
So that's the sort of thingthat you try to unlock.
(44:11):
You, you want them to find thedirection themselves by offering
options.
Right, you can't be saying, oh,this is what you should do.
I don't think that's the rightway of mentoring.
I think the right way ofmentoring is saying, well, this
is where you are, these are thesort of options that could be of
your interest, something thatreally would ignite your passion
(44:32):
to do, and then with that youcan develop a sort of a schedule
of what to do and how to reach.
But you need that person to findthat path themselves, because
it has to be something that theyfeel like it's theirs.
(44:52):
They have come to theconclusion that that's something
that they want to do.
What you provide is theframework, maybe the options,
and maybe also show what thepotential pitfalls could be if
you go in one direction or theother directions.
So you look at the variousvalues that are related to
(45:16):
certain directions or certainthings, but also the positives
and the negatives.
So you need to give thatoverview so somebody can make
their own decisions about whatit is that attracts them to go
into that direction.
Then, of course, you canencourage.
I mean, part of a mentor isalso to encourage somebody right
(45:38):
, if they feel really optimisticand positive about something,
then it's also important toencourage and support.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Did it ever happen that values did not align and
that somebody did not find theirpassion?
And they realized maybe this isnot for me?
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I actually had one mentee that initially wanted to
get mentored in developingfurther into lighting and then
that particular person suddenlydidn't feel like lighting was
(46:27):
something.
So there was a point at at atone moment that we decided that
it didn't make sense to continue, because that person was not
aligned to continue in the pathof lighting, my, my mentorship.
(46:47):
I mean, I'm not, I'm not acounselor, right?
No, so there has to be adistinct separation between
being a counselor and being amentor, right?
So at that point, when thatperson was no longer interested
in pursuing a career in lightingbut wanted to go into a
(47:08):
different direction, more intoeducation and and other things,
community work, um, I decidedthat, and and that person also
decided that it would be betterto separate, and we just ended
it on a friendly, friendly basis, but with the knowledge for
that person that my door isalways open.
(47:30):
I think as a mentor, I don'tfeel my task ends any ever.
You know, if somebody that I'vementored, after a year or two
you would like to come back.
So, like I'm here, you know Iwould need some further.
Yeah, for me it's fine.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
So is there an ideal length of time to mentor someone
?
Or, you know, should it be sixmonths a year is ongoingly?
What would be sort of anoptimal amount of time to be
mentoring someone over the?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
course of it depends really what they achieve.
To me, I think mentorship um ispotentially a lifetime, uh sort
of undertaking, right.
I don't think it can stop justafter two or three months, right
, but the first few months maybe very helpful is setting
(48:23):
somebody off in a certaindirection, right, and then they
can develop themselves and andit's not like you need to to
hold their hand all the time buta mentor is there um to help
somebody when they maybe don'tsee which what the next step
would have to be how often wouldyou meet up with someone, for
(48:46):
instance to um, to find out whatneeds to be done next?
Certainly in the beginning canbe weekly or two weekly.
Just seven an hour and that'senough.
Yeah, it's one, two hours.
One two hours maybe on a weeklybasis or two weekly basis
depends on what the achievementis and what?
Speaker 2 (49:08):
I guess it's different with every some people
you know most of the people arequite busy.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
They have their own lives.
So it's not like you can.
You can go to school every dayand, and you know, get something
.
No, it has to be fitted intheir personal lives, their
business lives.
So we find that one or twohours a week or every two weeks
is sufficient, and then, ofcourse, that's just our personal
(49:33):
interaction.
After that, I generally leavethem with a bit of homework,
right?
So, yeah, after we have talkedit through, I say okay, this is
what we discussed today, this iswhat I want you to do for the
coming week, so that when wemeet again, I want you to do
this, this, this, or give me afeedback on this, this and that
(49:56):
so mentoring is highlypersonalized to the person.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Absolutely.
That you're mentoring yeah,master your master classes, I'm
guessing is more of a broadercontext in which to to learn
from.
Let's now talk about yourmaster classes, because that's
an all that's also a veryimportant, I think, element as
(50:22):
part of your light talk platform.
Yeah, where did that come from?
Like, what's your approach interms of your master?
Speaker 1 (50:31):
classes.
So what I want to do is to sortof like I've written my books.
They are sort of general innature this is my life.
But the master classes are verysubject driven, right.
So that will be about maybe thebusiness of lighting design or
(50:52):
how to do conceptual design, orI'm going to go into lighting
application.
So it will be very subjectdirected and I want to create
little modules for about 45minutes each that gives a deeper
insight on one specific subject, right, so that people can
(51:14):
accumulate the specificknowledge about that subject.
Some subject may be spread overtwo or three modules.
I have started now with six orseven modules I've done now, but
there will be some more modulesthat will be very specific on
applications, and in that Ishare my 45 years of knowledge
(51:37):
of doing things and of courseit's my experience.
It doesn't mean that that's theway to do it, it's just I'm
sharing I'm sharing what I didand how I did things, the the,
the pitfalls that I came across,the things that I learned, most
of all because you learn fromyour mistakes.
Yeah, so I'm sharing also mymistakes and and what I learned
(52:00):
along the way because, as I saidin the beginning, you learn
also from a lot of people'smistakes.
Exactly, if I share my mistakes, people can learn from my
mistakes as well, correct?
Speaker 2 (52:12):
How many modules have you got at the moment with your
masterclasses?
We've got seven modules.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Do you?
Yeah, that's more about thegeneral aspects of lighting
design.
Okay, I think it's important tounderstand what it takes to
become a lighting designer, whatit takes to deliver the service
as a as a practicing lightingdesigner.
(52:37):
So I will go through all theaspects from designing, from
specifications, from running abusiness as lighting designer,
how to deal with, how to dealwith the lighting technology.
That's all part of the firstseven modules, and once these
are done, then we're going tostep into actual applications.
(53:01):
So building on that initial baseof a masterclass, I think you
need to have a generalunderstanding about lighting
design first the basics oflighting design, so to speak and
once you have the basics, thenyou can move into specific
applications.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
And these are all available on your Light Talk
website, which is lighttalkspace, so people can participate in
your masterclasses by basicallyputting your name down and you
can follow it in your own time.
Would you recommend also, Iguess, coupling that with
(53:36):
mentoring at the same time, orit really doesn't matter what?
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Well, the thing is that we are giving the first
mentor or consultancy sessionfor free, so people who want to
know more, they can just log inand book an appointment.
I'm happy to give a freesession where we can discuss
what people need one or wouldlike to do, and from there they
(54:00):
can decide what they want tofollow and how they want to
follow up.
So I think there's plenty ofmaterials there, everything from
your experiences in light talkone and light talk two, combined
with which reflects my 45 yearsas a lighting designer in the
business and a lot of that wouldhave gone into your master
classes as well, of course ofcourse, it's not only light
(54:22):
design, so, mind you, it's alsothe cultural and geographical
experience that I had by doingprojects.
I'm not just doing projectsjust in Australia or in
Singapore or whatever.
I've done projects all over theworld.
So, it comes with my experienceof doing works and projects in
China, works and projects inIndia, philippines, australia,
(54:43):
europe, right, so that is also acultural background.
And dealing with contractors inthe Middle East for argument's
sake, it's all a bit different.
So that cultural background andgeographical spread of
experience also is a very bigpart of the knowledge sharing
that comes with this.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now you mentioned that you were45 years in the business.
Yeah, is there a lot for youbeyond lighting, I guess, maybe
in a practical sense, your corelighting design?
Yeah, is there a shift awayfrom that to more of an
(55:28):
educational type of role withinlighting design?
Speaker 1 (55:32):
or is it going to be something completely different?
Let's put it this way thenumber one priority when you get
older is your health.
In order to keep your health ata good level, you need to
eliminate stress.
In order to eliminate stress, Iprobably need to do a bit less
(55:53):
of project design and being in ahectic environment where I have
to satisfy clients all the time.
So that probably well, it doesmean that I'm going to step back
from my active lighting designactivities.
I will still be involvedbecause it's in my blood.
I've done it for 45 years.
You'll never retire I can'treally retire but being more
(56:15):
remotely involved, let the newgeneration take over the
day-to-day activities.
I will be still mentoring theteam and then, yeah, all the
experience that I've potted upover the last 45 years, now I
want to sort of put it out thereand share with the industry.
(56:36):
I will do that through thebooks.
I'll do that through the LightTalk website.
Obviously.
I also do that by publicspeaking, and I've been already
invited in several events forthis year.
I share my knowledge throughpublic speaking as well.
We're going to do an audioversion of this book as well,
(57:01):
absolutely.
So there will be an e-book, anaudio book of that as well,
because a lot of people usetheir mobile phone and are on
the road all the time, so nowthey can listen to the to the
light talk books as well.
But yeah, that's that I'll bemoving to that, meaning I will
be more doing lighting when Iwant it rather than on yours.
(57:26):
I have to do it on your terms,basically my terms.
I think by now I've earned my,my position in the industry to
be doing it more when I want itrather than because I have to.
Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
I think that's a great way to end our little
discussion here.
And, yeah, I think everyoneshould check out Light Talk.
For sure, lighttalkspace youcan find it out online.
You can continue readingMartin's blogs, maybe check out
the master class if that'ssomething you'd like to tap into
(58:03):
as well as maybe… Consultanciesas well With consultancy.
Speaker 1 (58:08):
I'm certainly very keen on doing consultancies as
well, because it's somethingthat I can use all my my 45
years of experience to helppeople on the way give insights.
Don't forget, I've had a lot ofinteractions also with
manufacturers, with people thatdo innovations in the lighting
industry.
So that knowledge also withmanufacturers, with people that
do innovations in the lightingindustry, so that knowledge also
(58:30):
helps manufacturers to maybedevelop new lighting application
oriented products All thatknowledge I have and, yeah, I'd
love to share that, yeah,perfect.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
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