May 23, 2024 • 50 mins
As season 6 progresses, the Guy sisters have some moments of joy and appreciation and quite a few quibbles for the writers. Though the cartoonified episode is in some ways delightful (Tracie wanted to be an animator when she was a kid), there are moments in the writing that feel either ableist or rushed (or both). The sisters note that it feels particularly hypocritical that the episode seems to judge Jimmy Barnes for being less-than rational/typical when the whole show is a daydream from a comic book.
In the second of the two episodes, Lucifer’s one-time lover, Esther, who is now a rabbi provides fodder for musings on the kinds of theological and cosmological God-wrestling the character of Lucifer Morningstar engenders. We also spend more than a little time (and intentional and unintentional double entendres) wondering about the seemingly misplaced erection jokes that pop up in the episode (see what we did there?).
In the end, though there remains some good things to recommend even these season 6 episodes, the sisters are left with the sense that the whole enterprise would have benefited from a bit more time for reflection, review, and revision.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and
she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And together this is Lightbringers, where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we are overthinking it, so much overthinking.
We are chugging along in seasonsix, our listeners.
It's only been a week, but forus it's actually been a while
(00:50):
since we spoke time.
So today we're going to talkabout episodes 603 and 604.
So Yabba Dabba Do Me and Pin theTail on the Daddy.
So these are an interestinglike think the the writers knew
with the whole production crew.
They knew this was it, this wasthe last season and they
(01:11):
decided to have some fun, uh,with this season.
And um, yeah, we get quite abit of fun in in yabba dabba do
me.
This is the one one where Chloeand Lucifer go into Jimmy
Barnes' Hellloop Jimmy Barnesfrom way back in season one and
end up in a cartoon.
(01:32):
So it reminded me, I told you,it reminded me of the episode of
Angel where some sort of spellturns Angel and I think maybe
one other character, I don'tremember it's been a long time,
but anyway he gets turned into aMuppet and it's just like one
of those things where I justagain like see the writer's room
, like what if we made themcartoons Like how do we solve
(01:53):
this?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
problem Either like a 3 am session or they're
enjoying some other refreshmentsin addition to the commissary
Maybe so?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, so you know, as , as someone who my childhood
aspiration was to be an animator, so I, I dug it, I did I,
although I have to say, like thelikeness of the cartoon Lucifer
, I it wasn't really, I wasn'timpressed for me.
Yeah, they.
I mean they make a big dealabout the chin butt um for the
(02:26):
cleft in his chin, which I don'tknow.
I just didn't buy it anyway.
I I would have rendered cartoonlucifer considerably
differently than that.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, because you know I am the arbiter of
cartoons, apparently anyway, thetwo of us yes so all right,
well, I let's start.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Let's start with yabba dabba do me.
We have talked about mentalhealth in this show repeatedly,
and so this is a reallyinteresting test case for us,
where jimmy was in a psychiatrichospital for the criminally
insane or whatever they whatever, however, they say that now
that sounds gross when I say itout loud, very Arkham Asylum
(03:09):
sounding, totally, doesn't it?
Yeah, like Batman, but he, hewas in some sort of, uh, mental
health facility within thecriminal justice system when he
died.
And so when they go to the hellloop, like they give us some
clues, and even before they goto the hell loop, like they give
us some clues, and even beforethey get in there, that
something's going to be off,cause, like Lucifer can't find
(03:29):
the door, and it just looksweird, and and then they enter
and they are in, they arecartoonified and they are in a
cartoon.
And before we hit record, youand I were kind of remarking on
the fact that, despite the factthat this show does a lot of
things really well with mentalhealth, something about the way
chloe and lucifer talked aboutthis was just off.
(03:52):
Yeah, yeah, they kept talkingabout how lucifer broke jimmy's
brain and now they needed to fixit.
Yeah, which feels ableist, yeah,that is the word, that is
(04:12):
absolutely the word.
Um, ableist, and it completelydevalues what they do find when
they're there, right, I mean.
So the hell loop first.
First we're in the cartoonversion of the wedding that
lucifer interrupted.
Then we go back to the 1980s,which chloe notes is like more
(04:37):
80s than the 80s, and there'ssomething really actually
playful and fun about that aswell, and the cartoon is
delightful like that we're by.
Just by just labeling it asbroken and in need of fixing, we
completely devalue andundervalue what is creative and
(05:01):
fun and playful and beautiful,even about Jimmy's psyche.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Well, and so we're seeing some aspect of the little
boy that we end up finding atthe end that this is someone who
took refuge in cartoons but whoalso kind of saw the
(05:29):
opportunities and the thingsthat are enjoyable about
different parts of life.
So, as we talked about beforewe hit record Wednesday's Child,
they decided to drop him as amusic producer because he was
too mainstream and the thing islike, based on what we're seeing
(05:49):
with this cartoon with the 80sHellloop, there's something very
creative about Jimmy's mind andhis process, but also something
that is popular, yeah, and solike they're dropping him for
like a sound that is going tohave mainstream success.
(06:10):
And already has, because hecomes in to say it just went
platinum.
Yeah, and like that's.
I have no doubt that happens inmusic, where it's just like we
don't want to sell out man.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Sure, there's some of those sort of almost limiting
beliefs about what real artistslike that real artists have to
suffer or something, and that ifit's popular, then that means
like it's not good becausepeople are stupid, right?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So you need.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
You need to only appeal to an elite group, a
sophisticated yeah, exactly, if,if the lemmings like it, then
it's not actually good, it'sdrivel.
Yes, yep, yes.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
But that, like seeing this worldview, it convinced me
in a way that you know, thefirst couple times.
So we met Jimmy Barnes in thepilot and then we see him, maybe
once more, maybe twice more, Idon't remember.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
We see him like Chloe goes to visit him in the
facility and he's like it likebangs ends up banging his head
against the like until he bleeds.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
To show us just how unhinged he is.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, but this is what convinced me like he was
probably quite talented as amusic producer.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Well, I mean, he was Delilah's music producer and she
was a superstar, right.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, like Beyonce level I don't know I'm quite
that big but kind of like makingus think that looking at things
from a reality-basedperspective and, like you know,
to-do lists and productivity andlike everything exactly as it
looked in the real world, islike the right way to be, yeah,
(08:09):
is like the right way to be yeah, whereas, like you know, having
flights of fancy and likeemphasizing like the fun of,
like people in spandex and andyou know, is is uh, not like
that, that's, that's not okay.
We're we.
We can't have that.
It needs to be fixed it'sbroken, it's wrong.
Yeah and that's really upsetting.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
it's yeah, it's unfortunate, especially for this
show which, you know, is basedon a comic book about the
literal devil taking a vacationin la, I mean, and opening a
piano bar.
This is not a, this is not ato-do list kind of a guy you
know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, so, and it's interesting at like the lesson
of that episode because he comesinto it with like you know, I
tried to help Carol because Idon't care about him, but I came
to care about him, so let mehelp someone I hate, and Jimmy
Barnes is worthy of hatred.
(09:08):
He killed Delilah simply forfinancial reasons, with someone
he had loved as much as he wascapable of loving, and he did
this and had no remorse as faras one could tell, seemed to
have
Speaker 2 (09:25):
no remorse, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And, you know, did some truly awful things, and so
it's interesting that we thenget this like glimpse into like
his creativity and hisplayfulness, part of, I guess,
what made him a good musicproducer, and then you get all
the way back to where Lucifer isactually able to see the pain
(09:47):
at the heart of why he becamethe monster that he was, and
that's I very much appreciatedthat.
It's like both the first time Iwatched it and this time around
, that you know, when you getdown to it, hurt people people.
Often you know there are like Ithink it's there's a very good
(10:07):
reason why they helped JimmyBarnes and not Malcolm, because
I don't think Malcolm was a hurtperson who hurt people.
I think he was just a sociopath.
I think he might've also beenhurt at some point, but there
there was a kind of empathymissing from him that I think
wasn't missing from Jimmy.
(10:28):
I think it was he pushed itaway from himself because it
hurt.
So in any case.
But I also I wish there hadbeen more to the like wow, this
guy's pretty creative, ratherthan like.
Chloe realizes oh, the cartoonsare his solace, yeah, but she
(10:50):
doesn't realize like, and boydoes he have a great imagination
.
Yeah, like it's amazing how heis able to like you know this is
his hell loop, but he'srecreating it in a way that he
can handle.
That is also fun, even if itdoesn't feel fun to him at the
time.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know, there's also something like the
scene where, in the hotel room,where Lucifer realizes what's
happening and addresses youngJimmy directly.
What's happening and addressesyoung Jimmy directly.
Thinking about the writing, itwas very expository.
(11:33):
You know, jimmy, I can't getyou out of here and I don't even
know if you deserve to get outof here and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, like itwas very, I don't know, unsubtle
, which I guess isn't the end ofthe world.
But I feel like our writershave given us more subtle and
more polished before.
Well, it's actually felt likehere's our moral.
(11:56):
Yeah, yeah, kind of a way thatI feel like our writers have
been I don't know just less hityou over the head in the past.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, I would agree with that, but the other thing
we were talking about beforerecording began was how it feels
.
A little like this season wasrushed, yeah, and they would
have been more subtle.
There were some story beatsthat would have been more
polished and, I think, even someacting choices that might've
been different, but I rememberwhen it came out because it came
(12:37):
out in September 2021, we hadjust gotten the second half of
season five, like only a fewmonths before.
And I was just like oh wow, Iwasn't expecting this until 2022
at the earliest, so it feelsrushed for a number of reasons.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, yeah, well, okay, let's move on to the
second episode.
I think and we can circle backif we need to One of the things
that really ties these twotogether and actually really
this whole season is a focus onan absent parent and the
consequences thereof, and also,interestingly, in the second one
, the consequences for theabsent parent potentially so in
(13:20):
in Yabba Dabba Doomy.
In Yabba Dabba Doomy, we seeJimmy Barnes's mom abandon him
and at the end of that episodewe meet, who we will learn is
Rory we don't have her name yetA young female angel with knives
for feathers in her wings whotells Lucifer that he is her
(13:44):
daughter, that that she is hisdaughter.
I screwed up the pronouns onthat one.
She is his daughter and Iremember.
It's funny because when Iwatched this the first time, I
had seen like a rumor onlinethat she was his and Chloe's
daughter from the future, and Ireally did not like that.
(14:06):
I was like, please don't let itbe that, please don't let it be
that, please don't let it bethat.
And so when she says I'm yourdaughter, the first time I
watched it I was like, oh man, Ireally didn't want it to be
that, and so I like thatdisappointment colored
everything for me.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Yeah, I felt the same way, and in part because
Lucifer has made it clearthrough the first five seasons
that he has no interest inhaving children.
And and Now I do appreciatethat this is one of those things
that you can very easily changeyour mind about when you find
(14:47):
out the choice has not beentaken away from you, but
something unintentional happened.
Or even you end up taking careof a kid who becomes yours, even
if they're not biologicallyyours, even if they're not
(15:08):
biologically yours.
However, I know a number ofpeople who are child-free by
choice who are constantly toldoh, you'd change your mind.
As soon as you hold that baby,as soon as you see that line on
the pee stick, you would changeyour mind.
And I'm like, can we please stopwith that narrative?
Yeah, and because it is theopposite of selfish when someone
(15:30):
who is child free by choicesays I don't want children.
Yeah, you know, becausebringing another human being
into the world who is notentirely 100% wanted?
Because, let me tell you, Ihave known since I was a tiny
child I wanted to be a momalways.
I have never questioned it.
It has always been a core partof who I am and I adore my kids.
(15:55):
But let me tell you, there havebeen times when I was pregnant,
when there were babies, whenthey're having raging hormones,
where I am like my God, this isthe hardest thing ever.
Oh my God, my life would beeasier if I were not a parent.
And if I feel that way when Iam 100% all in and have been
(16:16):
always, we have no right.
We have no right to push thisnarrative that you need to just
try it.
It's really interesting thatthat will come up in this show
too, especially in thisnarrative that, like, well, you
need to it's just try it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
It's really interesting that it would that
that will come up in this showtoo, especially in the in this
pairing that is our pairing.
It's not the shows, but they.
They are right next to eachother.
Where we just saw jimmy's mom,who were not left with the
impression that she was ahorrible, malicious person yeah
she maybe should have beenchildless, right?
(16:45):
If she could be convinced soeasily to abandon him in a hotel
room.
What was he like?
11?
Maybe yeah.
So that's a great point.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
A great point, I think that like I have a kind of
an outsized reaction to this,because it's not just about Luc
lucifer, like this is my, thisis my reaction and it's
partially because it's fiveseasons of like.
In the like very first episodehe's, he's saying to chloe like
yeah, children are awful.
And like was there a mistake orwith it was she planned?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
and like yeah, nothing to write home about, but
the I.
I think that it's.
You're right, it's not justLucifer.
We see it in TV shows all thetime.
You know, like Big Bang Theory,penny spends the entire series
saying that she doesn't want tobe a kid, and then they close
with her being pregnant becausethey wanted to.
They wanted to close the theylike the symmetry of.
(17:41):
In the very beginning, leonardsays our children will be smart
and beautiful, and so closinghis loop is more important than
the fact that Penny didn't wantto be a mother.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
And that I I didn't even know that's how it ended,
Cause I stopped watching severalseasons ago when it became
clear that Penny was not acharacter in her own right, she
was a prize.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, all the more so with the way they closed it
with that yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So yeah, it's not, you're right, it's not just
Lucifer.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
So, and that really irritated me a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
There was also something really like in the
same constellation the fact that, like I just knew when I looked
into her eyes what that feelslike wishful thinking, yes, and
also like Oedipus.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Thank you very much.
I'm not saying like thathappens often, but you know, the
story of Oedipus makes enoughsense that everyone is just like
yeah, I mean, jocasta waspretty young when she had them.
She was still pretty hot.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yuck Um well to me.
Okay, yes, yes, and the thenarrative of of that.
I just looked into her eyes andI knew there was a recognition
(19:17):
there.
It does the same thing where itsort of devalues and makes
wrong someone who might not.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Well it also it devalues, like any other type of
.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I mean I guess they would say like you'd feel that
way with your child, who youadopt you know, like, yeah, the
impression, I don't know, Idon't know how that, I don't
know how this magic spell would,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Because you know, I don't know if Mira and Robert
Daniel, or whatever his name was, her father like did a
paternity test, but like andwould that negate this lovely
father-daughter relationshipthey have forged?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
if it turns out he's not the biological father, not
the biological father.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I mean like there's just so much in there that just
doesn't fit.
Yeah, with how careful thisshow usually is.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
And like, can I just say, Brianna Hildebrand, who
plays Rory, is way too short tobe the child of Lucifer and
Chloe she is, so she's teeny.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
She's so pretty, though her facial features I
think fit.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Facially.
Yes, she does look like shecould be their child.
Yeah, and like that.
That's not really a thing, it'sjust I.
I thought of that when he hadto like lean down so much to
look at her, to look her in theeye when she was wearing this
huge those huge, um yeah, five,three or something.
(21:05):
She something.
She's not a very tall woman.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, since you brought up Mira, let's talk
about Mira's mom.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yes, the rabbi, who is the potential mother that we
spend the most time with?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yes, Right, yeah, so let's talk about Esther the
rabbi.
So you pointed out the factthat it's curious that,
according to lucifer, they spent15 minutes together having sex
in an orgy, and that's it,though.
(21:37):
She knew his full name and heknew hers, so I you know.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah yeah maybe he was an unreliable narrator on
that, although the full namecould have just been like he
could have just known esther,and like maize did that research
for him because she's so goodat uh, at um, tracking humans,
tracking humans.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So possibly, you know possibly.
You know, possibly so, but shesays that he's the reason that
she decided to become a rabbi,which is very theologically
interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm going to let you take the lead
on this because you're the Torahscholar of the two of us.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well.
So it's a I'm not even sureit's sort of it's Torah.
Like the name LuciferMorningstar is not Jewish in the
least right.
It's a mistranslation of we'vetalked about this before like of
a line from Isaiah.
Kind of gets mistranslated andmaybe maybe it was about the
(22:46):
rebellious angel, maybe not,it's unclear.
Anyway, there is, however, youknow, jewish commentary it's not
torah about or not torah, withthe capital t in the five books,
but there is commentary andstories about the angel who you
know ends up Lilith's consortand his name is taboo to be said
(23:10):
.
His Hebrew name is taboo to besaid among some Jewish groups.
So that guy does exist in theJewish tradition.
It's an interesting question,like how interacting with that
person, that creature being,might put someone on a spiritual
(23:31):
path.
Because one of the thingsthat's really interesting about
Lucifer whether with Esther therabbi or anybody you know Ella
it's not that he's an atheist,he doesn't.
He doesn't disbelieve, quitethe opposite.
(23:53):
He knows for certain that Godis real.
He just doesn't like them, justdoesn't like them.
And there's I.
To me that's a reallyinteresting question, right,
(24:20):
because I think so much of whatwe think about as crises of
faith are about exists ordoesn't exist.
That's.
It's a, it's a decided point.
When it comes to Lucifer, thatis not the question.
The question is not exists ordoesn't exist, it's actually.
It's not even good or bad.
It's sort of I don't knowhealthy or not, uh, looking out
(24:44):
for us or not, and even thatthen becomes a question of free
will.
So the theological questionsthat Lucifer is able to engage
with are actually several levelsabove what we tend to think
about as the traditional crisesof faith.
God exists or God doesn't exist.
That's not it, of course.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
God exists.
He's my dad.
You know one thing that'sthat's this is bringing up for
me.
And again, you, you are aresident religious expert, um,
but my assumption is that Estheris a reform rabbi.
She might be reconstructionist.
(25:27):
Maybe she could also beconservative.
She could be conservative.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Sure, the conservative movement ordains
women, okay.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
So I feel like in the Judaism that we were raised
with, which is reform Judaism,judaism like we're, it's open to
being real mad at God.
I believe that that's generallytrue of Judaism.
I don't know that that isgenerally true of necessarily
other religions, but I like Idon't really have a basis for
(25:59):
comparison.
Just, you know the the, thestuff that I consume about like
extremist religions, that wouldnot go over well.
So like that's something that Ithink is interesting is like
that Lucifer is so angry at Godand whether or not that came up
(26:21):
in the 15 minutes but thatEsther was inspired to follow
this path.
That is about wrangling withand wrestling with these really
big questions of things likefree will and like what, what
does God owe humanity?
(26:42):
What do?
What does humanity owe God?
You know the all of those sortsof things.
So like I don't think it wouldhave worked if she had become
like I don't think that thatstory beat would have worked if
she'd become a Christian pastor,like if she hadn't been Esther,
if she'd been, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
That's an interesting point.
You might be right about that.
I think there are.
That's an interesting point.
(27:29):
You might be right about that.
I think there are.
There's.
Look, I do not want to say astatement about Christians or
Christian clergy, because thereare so many flavors and there
are really thoughtful, beautiful, nuanced theologies coming out
of Christian tradition, and soit is certainly possible that
there could be a similar sort ofpath and there are this sort of
popular understanding wouldn'tjibe with it, right?
So I think if we were writing anovel and we really wanted to
go into the background of thetheology of the particular
(27:50):
whatever, it's not impossibleand for the amount of screen
time that we had, esther, Ithink you're right, rabbi made
the most sense because, as youpoint out, like wrestling with
God is that's what Israel means,like that is the way that we
chose to name ourselves as apeople is that we wrestle with
(28:11):
God?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Well and it's.
I think it's also kind of ashorthand.
Well, it's a visual gag also,Like you get there, she's ending
a prayer and you see, likeshe's ending the Shekeanu for a
baby naming or a bris, a bris.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
He says a bris.
Oh, yeah, he says it's a bris.
Yeah, so it's a visual pun,it's a visual gag in multiple
ways.
So the Shekeanu is the prayerfor um, like a joyful occasion,
like thank God, thanks God forallowing us to reach this moment
, and it's specifically for abris, while we're talking about
(28:55):
babies.
And then there's this woman inTali and in the prayer shawl and
the and the um yarmulke.
So the, the gag is on manylevels, like, if you're in the
know and you know sort of whatthe bris is, you know the prayer
she's ending because she justsaid the last two words of it.
She's a woman in prayer shawland and yarmulke which, as you
(29:18):
pointed out, like that's not allstrains of judaism ordained
women like there.
There's a lot of layers to thatembedded in.
We get a lot of informationvery quickly from the visual,
even the shul.
The synagogue that she's in isvery traditional, looking like
in Moroccan style, like what onemight imagine a synagogue looks
(29:40):
like if you haven't been in one.
It does not look like thesynagogues that you or I attend.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Well, it's also.
What's interesting is I noticedthat no matter which way they
had they framed the shot, therewas some Judaica in the
background.
So, like they, just they wantedto really drive home the point.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Versus.
Like the synagogues that youand I attend.
Look like hotels or officebuildings in the lobby, you know
like you also don't like walkin the door into the sanctuary.
Into the sanctuary yeah, it'svery sort of like what you
imagine in you know Jerusalem orsomething.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
So yeah, yeah, well, and her name is Esther.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Like her name isn't like.
My most recent rabbi had a verypopular first name that like
it's not this, but like Kendall,like it's like right, or my
female rabbis, you know, like Iknow Alyssa and well, deborah's
pretty.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
but, like you know, jesse is a good friend of mine
who's a female rabbi.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
So yeah, so like it.
It it was going for something.
Yeah, and some of it is likeyou know, you and I are going to
dig deep into this.
I think the casual viewer isjust going to be like, oh,
that's kind of funny, in thesame way that if one of his
former conquests had become anun kind of like titillating
funny or a priest priest, yeah,or a female, yeah, so that's
(31:13):
it's interesting to think about,if you like, actually pause.
And then part of the reason whyit also wouldn't make sense if
she had become a pastor was,like Lucifer Morningstar does
exist in the Christian tradition, and how would you make that
(31:35):
work?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's also the case that Judaism is, by and large,
sex positive.
I mean, there are exceptions,obviously again, broad brush but
by and large sex positiveinsofar as, like so she thinks
this person is possibly thefather of her child and she's
not.
She's still delighted to seehim.
There's, there doesn't seem tobe any shame about it.
Like she says, I'm a differentperson than I was, but not in a
(31:58):
way that's like I was dirty.
I'm better now.
Yeah, and I think that would behard to understand.
Sell from a Christian pastor inthe short amount of time that
we have.
And the cultural understandingof what of of, of Christian
(32:18):
attitudes toward premarital sex.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
So anyway so we wanted to talk a little bit
about Lois responses.
Yeah, first of all, how did sheget to Seattle so quickly?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
No idea, they just don't explain it.
It doesn't make sense, it's notpossible.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
I mean like From LA, yeah, from LA to Seattle.
Like LAX is one of the most Imean other than Atlanta, it's
one of the biggest airports inthe country.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
But no, it's it, we're not.
We're just not supposed tothink about that too much.
Yeah, yeah, like they wanted,they, they.
You know he bends down to pickup the piece of clothing that
the the woman has just dropped,and then we see her.
(33:17):
So that's like this sort of funvisual reveal, um, and then
she's annoyed because he's, shethinks he's, soliciting sex, I
don't know with a woman who'snaked in her broad daylight
doorway and he's down on thestairwell.
He's clearly not like rushing upto ravish her.
(33:38):
It.
It is like it just doesn'tquite work.
You know, like, and then shesays you're lying.
You're still lying to me, andthat actually is believable as
why she's mad that there's stillthis like the secrets between
them.
But the initial like I guessthat that was part of the joke
(33:58):
they wanted her to be annoyedabout the sex, but I don't.
Actually that didn't work forme.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well, and she knows the like effect he has on people
Like you're going to have toget used to panties being thrown
at him.
Yeah, I mean, beckonoppenheimer probably has to do
the same thing right tomellison's wife, I mean right but
(34:27):
yeah, I mean that, that's yeah,it just didn't.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
It just doesn't fit.
It was the whole confrontationscene just didn't quite work,
yeah yeah.
And then like so she's going tohave, they're going to figure
it out together, but then she'sjealous of Esther because she
assumes that they have some sortof special spiritual because
she's a rabbi, Like for all ofthe kind of like shorthand
(34:51):
things that we were just talkingabout, which is also an
interesting development.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
You know, that's something I can kind of not in
this case.
I don't feel like, I don't feellike the story earned it.
However, I can say that thereare some things like I have
friends who are writers who Ican talk to, that I know my
spouse it's not jealousy, butit's just this like feels weird
(35:22):
because it's not something heshares with me, yeah, and so
like I can get that where like,and particularly if like oh, and
you share a child together,like share a child together.
I'm going to need a minute.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Sure, yeah, I buy that.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
I get that.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah, I'll follow you .
I'll follow you there, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
They're throwing so much at the wall with Chloe,
this episode of what she'sjealous of, what she's upset
about that you lose the veryreal and understandable reaction
of.
She is not a spiritual personat all, even though she now
knows it's all true, but thereis no sense of wrestling with
(36:03):
God that she has ever done inher life.
So there's someone that heshares a child with supposedly
that's like he had this profoundeffect on who has devoted her
life to something that is a partof his life that she has no
part of.
Okay, yeah, that's reasonable,but it just they don't sell it
in the story.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, I agree with everything that you just said,
yeah, yeah, everything that youjust said, yeah, yeah.
And then I'm really gonnaoverthink this next scene when
they go to, like they're goingto try and find mira, and so
they go to wherever they are.
I don't remember.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
They told us, but I don't remember it's somewhere in
california, yeah, middle ofcalifornia yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
So they, the pi, lost her trail at this little gas
station convenience store placenear the avocado farm.
So we see them arrive withLucifer carrying Chloe.
He puts her down, he thanks herfor flying Lucifer air and then
says something about make sureyour tray table is in the full
upright position.
(37:06):
He says I know mine is chuckles.
And then walks away and like asI'm rewatching it for for this,
I'm thinking, wow, Alice'sdelivery is kind of wooden, no
pun intended.
And and then I'm like no,that's not it, it's just, it's
(37:35):
not a good line, it's not likeintegrated, Like you either make
an erection joke and then tryto get flirty or you don't make
an erection joke.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Well, I mean, as I told you before we started
recording, he makes an erectionjoke and then just lets it hang,
which is the opposite of whatyou want.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Exactly Like you don't like make an erection joke
to the woman you're in lovewith and then start walking away
.
It just, and she doesn't even.
She doesn't touch it at all,she gives it zero, which is what
you don't want.
(38:26):
Yeah, she, she gives it zerowhat you don't want.
Yeah, okay, blushing, um, sothat like this.
That scene was further evidenceto me of what you said about
this a season being rushed, likethe writing, the writing, the
acting, the directing, like itjust didn't hang together.
It just didn't work.
It just didn't work Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Yes, but it did give us this lovely moment.
Yeah, I agree with that, and Ifeel like they were trying to do
too much all at once.
And the thing is, they do, theydo all this.
I mean, I'm even thinking whenhe lands in Miami and he's
(39:08):
approached by the young twinkwho's like hello daddy.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Oh, the twink is like hello daddy, like daddy.
Yeah, he's not old enough to bedaddy, uh like maybe I don't
know, but that also did not readwell, yeah, like it just didn't
work.
That was another moment where Iwas like wow, tom, I usually
you sell me a lot harder onthese things.
(39:31):
I am just not buying you rightnow.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
And they made a similar joke a while ago when
Amenadiel found out that Lindawas pregnant, where he was going
around, like do you have a goodrelationship with your father?
And it was a young gay man whoturned around and was like, oh,
I love all my daddies and thatworked because it felt natural.
Like you know, it's completelyunnatural for for someone to be
(39:56):
going around.
You have a good relationshipwith your father, but like if
someone gets less.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, the twink response felt yeah, yeah, yeah,
it just didn't.
Yes, I thank you for remindingme of that scene because I
remember noting it while Iwatched it yeah, so, and that
felt weird.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
And then just I will say, like the the thing that I
appreciated about this story arcis and we'll get to Rory and
Dan in a second but when Dancomes to Lucifer and Lucifer
(40:41):
like says, like she is mydaughter, and Dan's immediate
reaction is like that isfantastic, congratulations.
Having a daughter is the best.
Like I really appreciated that.
Yeah, having a daughter is thebest.
Like I really appreciated that,especially since she's an adult
.
So it's, it wasn't like, oh,it's such a shame that you
(41:02):
missed her childhood, or likeany of the things that that
could have been like kind of anatural reaction.
Like oh, wow, this is reallytough, you're in a tough
situation.
I'm sure you feel terrible.
It's like, no, this is great,go go have a relationship with
her.
You, you will not regret asecond of it.
And like that, that was reallyjust lovely and profound in a
(41:26):
way that was missing from therest of these episodes.
But, as you said before, westarted recording the relation,
the, the way that dan and roryinteract with each other makes
sense.
Before you know who she is,yeah, we find out at the end of
pin the tail on the daddy thatrory is chloe's daughter as well
(41:48):
, so must be some sort of timetravel thing, in which case she
would know who Dan was.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, and in previous episodes in this season it
seems like she doesn't know whoDan is and the way that she
treats Dan.
There is no way that Rory wouldtreat her sister's father with
such cruelty Not at all.
I just know.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Yeah, and knowing, knowing, I mean we see Trixie
crying in this.
And knowing that, like later on, we learn like the Trixie and
Rory have a good relationship.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
They are sisters who care about each other and so,
knowing the deep hole in Trixie,Well, even the way Trixie later
, later, later in this season Idon't remember which episode,
but eventually Trixie and Danactually do interact with one
another and Trixie talks abouthow much her father meant to her
.
Yeah, and that was like in theyear before Rory was born, and
(42:49):
so having a very imperfect dadwho is now dead I know you
forget about the imperfectthings, right, and the pedestal
just gets taller and taller thelonger they've been gone.
There is no way that Rory wouldI mean she might not have known
that Dan tried to kill him, totry to kill Lucifer.
She might not have known that.
She might not have known thatDan tried to kill him, tried to
(43:10):
kill Lucifer.
She might not have known that,but she would have recognized
him.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
But, she would have known who Dan was.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, and she would not have treated him so cruelly.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
And I like I am certain there are pictures of
him.
Oh my God, yeah, of course, andso she would have recognized
him, even if she would have beenlike, oh that Dan Espinosa?
Yeah, that just doesn't, itdoesn't make sense, nope.
And it is one of the reasons,like, I felt bad for the actress
(43:38):
playing Rory, like she'sjoining an ensemble cast in the
final season.
Yeah, is a tough job, and she'sjoining an ensemble cast in the
final season as an antagonistwho becomes a protagonist.
It's it's, it's yeoman's work.
Yeah, but part of the reasonwhy people are like rory, I
(44:02):
think, is also the way she'streated dan, which is not the
actress's fault, which hasnothing to do with the actress.
Yeah, I think the actress didas good did.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
I think she did a great job with what she had.
Yeah, agreed, yeah, yeah, allright.
Well, um, we've beenoverthinking for a minute.
Should we transition to fluff?
I've got some fluff.
I have a little bit too.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, you go first uh , this is not exactly fluff.
But I refuse to believe linda,who though we know she has had
several professional ethicallapses would be writing a book
about a patient, about a patient, using his full name and using
(44:44):
him and his friends and herfriends to get more information.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not buying it.
Not buying it, and even withwhen we later find out that
she's feeling a little at seabecause her regular patients are
not as interesting and excitingand challenging as working with
(45:04):
celestials, even with that, shewould at least change names.
You know, like that justdoesn't fit.
So like that's a.
It's not exactly fluff, butit's it's like.
Keep your characters consistent.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
And that is not her character.
Yeah, For me it's really silly,but like the way that Chloe
holds the necklace, the thepiece Amenadiel's necklace, like
every time she like like sheholds it like a little knife,
like even just to show him thatshe still has it.
And I just why wouldn't you putit on a leather cord around
(45:44):
your neck, like Amenadiel had,and just pull it out for you,
Like, do you still have it?
Like, yep, Right here, Like apacker chest or something.
It just looked ridiculous andlike she would drop it and like
every time it was like here itis and yeah, I don't know, like
by the third time she likeshowed it.
I was like, can you wear it likea menideal bed, like why are
(46:06):
you doing that where?
Speaker 3 (46:07):
are you keeping it?
How are you?
Other humans who have worn ithave worn it around their neck
it.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
It just was a weird choice, it's weird yeah and um,
and I'm surely overthinking it,but the way she keeps showing it
off it's like vaguely phallic.
I don't know.
Well, I I'm wondering if theywanted to be worshiping on it,
you know, like at the point whenhe says I'll put it in the safe
and she's like no, there's, Idon't know.
(46:35):
It felt a little it was an oddchoice and I don't think it was
only German.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
I think it was a direct royal choice.
I was wondering if they weregoing for a my precious type
thing where, like she's, holdingon to it because she can't bear
to even not have her hands onit maybe, but then we see her
with it, not in her hand, soyeah, so it's like pocket.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
I mean, yeah, it just something about it just didn't
quite feel believable.
Yeah so.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
So one other thing of little little fluff that I
really enjoyed was when theywere cartoons.
They had three fingers and athumb, and I noticed that
because I very firmly believethat cartoon characters.
There's a couple things withcartoon characters.
They have three fingers and athumb all cartoon characters,
(47:26):
even if they don't normally havehands.
There is no fourth finger andthey all have the middle initial
, j yeah, like Rocket J Squirreland Bartholomew J Moose, yep.
Or Bartholomew J Simpson, no,rocket.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's Rocket J Squirrel it's Moose, and
Squirrel who's the moose?
What's his name?
Bullwinkle, bullwinkle.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Bullwinkle, bullwinkle, j Moose.
That's why I said Bartholomew,which is why all of my I believe
pets should have J as a middleinitial as well.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Like Anthony J Anthony Crowley yes, like.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Anthony J Anthony Crowley.
But I had Bonanza J Cat.
I don't know.
I don't know what her last namewas.
It wasn't Guy Guy.
Yeah, bonanza J Guy.
I kind of stopped giving myanimals my last name.
So my first car was a you knowthis, but listeners don't 1972
(48:25):
Volkswagen Super Beetle, and Inamed her Fenchurch Audrey.
And then I was going to giveher the last name Guy, but then
I realized what her initialspell was.
So she was Fenchurch Audrey,volkswagen.
So since then I've been alittle cautious about giving my
animals my last name.
(48:46):
But now it's Birkin.
Yeah, well, but it's Guy Birkin, which sounds like a social
disease.
But no hyphen, I did nothyphenate Guy Birkin because it
sounded like a social disease.
Like you don't want to messwith Emily, she's got Guy Birkin
.
She says she got it from atoilet seat, but that's not
where it came from.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
All right, I don't want to think about Guy Decker
then.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
Well, no, that doesn't sound like a social
disease, that just sounds like aname I don't know, guy or like
I don't even know all right, wewe have devolved into the punchy
.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
At this point, I think it's time to call it time.
Time to go.
Yeah, we've overthoughtenoughown enough.
I will see you next time.
See you next time.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeetcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(49:56):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and
she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And together this is Lightbringers, where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we are overthinking it, so much overthinking.
We are chugging along in seasonsix, our listeners.
It's only been a week, but forus it's actually been a while
(00:50):
since we spoke time.
So today we're going to talkabout episodes 603 and 604.
So Yabba Dabba Do Me and Pin theTail on the Daddy.
So these are an interestinglike think the the writers knew
with the whole production crew.
They knew this was it, this wasthe last season and they
(01:11):
decided to have some fun, uh,with this season.
And um, yeah, we get quite abit of fun in in yabba dabba do
me.
This is the one one where Chloeand Lucifer go into Jimmy
Barnes' Hellloop Jimmy Barnesfrom way back in season one and
end up in a cartoon.
(01:32):
So it reminded me, I told you,it reminded me of the episode of
Angel where some sort of spellturns Angel and I think maybe
one other character, I don'tremember it's been a long time,
but anyway he gets turned into aMuppet and it's just like one
of those things where I justagain like see the writer's room
, like what if we made themcartoons Like how do we solve
(01:53):
this?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
problem Either like a 3 am session or they're
enjoying some other refreshmentsin addition to the commissary
Maybe so?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, so you know, as , as someone who my childhood
aspiration was to be an animator, so I, I dug it, I did I,
although I have to say, like thelikeness of the cartoon Lucifer
, I it wasn't really, I wasn'timpressed for me.
Yeah, they.
I mean they make a big dealabout the chin butt um for the
(02:26):
cleft in his chin, which I don'tknow.
I just didn't buy it anyway.
I I would have rendered cartoonlucifer considerably
differently than that.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, because you know I am the arbiter of
cartoons, apparently anyway, thetwo of us yes so all right,
well, I let's start.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Let's start with yabba dabba do me.
We have talked about mentalhealth in this show repeatedly,
and so this is a reallyinteresting test case for us,
where jimmy was in a psychiatrichospital for the criminally
insane or whatever they whatever, however, they say that now
that sounds gross when I say itout loud, very Arkham Asylum
(03:09):
sounding, totally, doesn't it?
Yeah, like Batman, but he, hewas in some sort of, uh, mental
health facility within thecriminal justice system when he
died.
And so when they go to the hellloop, like they give us some
clues, and even before they goto the hell loop, like they give
us some clues, and even beforethey get in there, that
something's going to be off,cause, like Lucifer can't find
(03:29):
the door, and it just looksweird, and and then they enter
and they are in, they arecartoonified and they are in a
cartoon.
And before we hit record, youand I were kind of remarking on
the fact that, despite the factthat this show does a lot of
things really well with mentalhealth, something about the way
chloe and lucifer talked aboutthis was just off.
(03:52):
Yeah, yeah, they kept talkingabout how lucifer broke jimmy's
brain and now they needed to fixit.
Yeah, which feels ableist, yeah,that is the word, that is
(04:12):
absolutely the word.
Um, ableist, and it completelydevalues what they do find when
they're there, right, I mean.
So the hell loop first.
First we're in the cartoonversion of the wedding that
lucifer interrupted.
Then we go back to the 1980s,which chloe notes is like more
(04:37):
80s than the 80s, and there'ssomething really actually
playful and fun about that aswell, and the cartoon is
delightful like that we're by.
Just by just labeling it asbroken and in need of fixing, we
completely devalue andundervalue what is creative and
(05:01):
fun and playful and beautiful,even about Jimmy's psyche.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Well, and so we're seeing some aspect of the little
boy that we end up finding atthe end that this is someone who
took refuge in cartoons but whoalso kind of saw the
(05:29):
opportunities and the thingsthat are enjoyable about
different parts of life.
So, as we talked about beforewe hit record Wednesday's Child,
they decided to drop him as amusic producer because he was
too mainstream and the thing islike, based on what we're seeing
(05:49):
with this cartoon with the 80sHellloop, there's something very
creative about Jimmy's mind andhis process, but also something
that is popular, yeah, and solike they're dropping him for
like a sound that is going tohave mainstream success.
(06:10):
And already has, because hecomes in to say it just went
platinum.
Yeah, and like that's.
I have no doubt that happens inmusic, where it's just like we
don't want to sell out man.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Sure, there's some of those sort of almost limiting
beliefs about what real artistslike that real artists have to
suffer or something, and that ifit's popular, then that means
like it's not good becausepeople are stupid, right?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So you need.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
You need to only appeal to an elite group, a
sophisticated yeah, exactly, if,if the lemmings like it, then
it's not actually good, it'sdrivel.
Yes, yep, yes.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
But that, like seeing this worldview, it convinced me
in a way that you know, thefirst couple times.
So we met Jimmy Barnes in thepilot and then we see him, maybe
once more, maybe twice more, Idon't remember.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
We see him like Chloe goes to visit him in the
facility and he's like it likebangs ends up banging his head
against the like until he bleeds.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
To show us just how unhinged he is.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, but this is what convinced me like he was
probably quite talented as amusic producer.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Well, I mean, he was Delilah's music producer and she
was a superstar, right.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, like Beyonce level I don't know I'm quite
that big but kind of like makingus think that looking at things
from a reality-basedperspective and, like you know,
to-do lists and productivity andlike everything exactly as it
looked in the real world, islike the right way to be, yeah,
(08:09):
is like the right way to be yeah, whereas, like you know, having
flights of fancy and likeemphasizing like the fun of,
like people in spandex and andyou know, is is uh, not like
that, that's, that's not okay.
We're we.
We can't have that.
It needs to be fixed it'sbroken, it's wrong.
Yeah and that's really upsetting.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
it's yeah, it's unfortunate, especially for this
show which, you know, is basedon a comic book about the
literal devil taking a vacationin la, I mean, and opening a
piano bar.
This is not a, this is not ato-do list kind of a guy you
know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, so, and it's interesting at like the lesson
of that episode because he comesinto it with like you know, I
tried to help Carol because Idon't care about him, but I came
to care about him, so let mehelp someone I hate, and Jimmy
Barnes is worthy of hatred.
(09:08):
He killed Delilah simply forfinancial reasons, with someone
he had loved as much as he wascapable of loving, and he did
this and had no remorse as faras one could tell, seemed to
have
Speaker 2 (09:25):
no remorse, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And, you know, did some truly awful things, and so
it's interesting that we thenget this like glimpse into like
his creativity and hisplayfulness, part of, I guess,
what made him a good musicproducer, and then you get all
the way back to where Lucifer isactually able to see the pain
(09:47):
at the heart of why he becamethe monster that he was, and
that's I very much appreciatedthat.
It's like both the first time Iwatched it and this time around
, that you know, when you getdown to it, hurt people people.
Often you know there are like Ithink it's there's a very good
(10:07):
reason why they helped JimmyBarnes and not Malcolm, because
I don't think Malcolm was a hurtperson who hurt people.
I think he was just a sociopath.
I think he might've also beenhurt at some point, but there
there was a kind of empathymissing from him that I think
wasn't missing from Jimmy.
(10:28):
I think it was he pushed itaway from himself because it
hurt.
So in any case.
But I also I wish there hadbeen more to the like wow, this
guy's pretty creative, ratherthan like.
Chloe realizes oh, the cartoonsare his solace, yeah, but she
(10:50):
doesn't realize like, and boydoes he have a great imagination
.
Yeah, like it's amazing how heis able to like you know this is
his hell loop, but he'srecreating it in a way that he
can handle.
That is also fun, even if itdoesn't feel fun to him at the
time.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know, there's also something like the
scene where, in the hotel room,where Lucifer realizes what's
happening and addresses youngJimmy directly.
What's happening and addressesyoung Jimmy directly.
Thinking about the writing, itwas very expository.
(11:33):
You know, jimmy, I can't getyou out of here and I don't even
know if you deserve to get outof here and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, like itwas very, I don't know, unsubtle
, which I guess isn't the end ofthe world.
But I feel like our writershave given us more subtle and
more polished before.
Well, it's actually felt likehere's our moral.
(11:56):
Yeah, yeah, kind of a way thatI feel like our writers have
been I don't know just less hityou over the head in the past.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, I would agree with that, but the other thing
we were talking about beforerecording began was how it feels
.
A little like this season wasrushed, yeah, and they would
have been more subtle.
There were some story beatsthat would have been more
polished and, I think, even someacting choices that might've
been different, but I rememberwhen it came out because it came
(12:37):
out in September 2021, we hadjust gotten the second half of
season five, like only a fewmonths before.
And I was just like oh wow, Iwasn't expecting this until 2022
at the earliest, so it feelsrushed for a number of reasons.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, yeah, well, okay, let's move on to the
second episode.
I think and we can circle backif we need to One of the things
that really ties these twotogether and actually really
this whole season is a focus onan absent parent and the
consequences thereof, and also,interestingly, in the second one
, the consequences for theabsent parent potentially so in
(13:20):
in Yabba Dabba Doomy.
In Yabba Dabba Doomy, we seeJimmy Barnes's mom abandon him
and at the end of that episodewe meet, who we will learn is
Rory we don't have her name yetA young female angel with knives
for feathers in her wings whotells Lucifer that he is her
(13:44):
daughter, that that she is hisdaughter.
I screwed up the pronouns onthat one.
She is his daughter and Iremember.
It's funny because when Iwatched this the first time, I
had seen like a rumor onlinethat she was his and Chloe's
daughter from the future, and Ireally did not like that.
(14:06):
I was like, please don't let itbe that, please don't let it be
that, please don't let it bethat.
And so when she says I'm yourdaughter, the first time I
watched it I was like, oh man, Ireally didn't want it to be
that, and so I like thatdisappointment colored
everything for me.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Yeah, I felt the same way, and in part because
Lucifer has made it clearthrough the first five seasons
that he has no interest inhaving children.
And and Now I do appreciatethat this is one of those things
that you can very easily changeyour mind about when you find
(14:47):
out the choice has not beentaken away from you, but
something unintentional happened.
Or even you end up taking careof a kid who becomes yours, even
if they're not biologicallyyours, even if they're not
(15:08):
biologically yours.
However, I know a number ofpeople who are child-free by
choice who are constantly toldoh, you'd change your mind.
As soon as you hold that baby,as soon as you see that line on
the pee stick, you would changeyour mind.
And I'm like, can we please stopwith that narrative?
Yeah, and because it is theopposite of selfish when someone
(15:30):
who is child free by choicesays I don't want children.
Yeah, you know, becausebringing another human being
into the world who is notentirely 100% wanted?
Because, let me tell you, Ihave known since I was a tiny
child I wanted to be a momalways.
I have never questioned it.
It has always been a core partof who I am and I adore my kids.
(15:55):
But let me tell you, there havebeen times when I was pregnant,
when there were babies, whenthey're having raging hormones,
where I am like my God, this isthe hardest thing ever.
Oh my God, my life would beeasier if I were not a parent.
And if I feel that way when Iam 100% all in and have been
(16:16):
always, we have no right.
We have no right to push thisnarrative that you need to just
try it.
It's really interesting thatthat will come up in this show
too, especially in thisnarrative that, like, well, you
need to it's just try it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
It's really interesting that it would that
that will come up in this showtoo, especially in the in this
pairing that is our pairing.
It's not the shows, but they.
They are right next to eachother.
Where we just saw jimmy's mom,who were not left with the
impression that she was ahorrible, malicious person yeah
she maybe should have beenchildless, right?
(16:45):
If she could be convinced soeasily to abandon him in a hotel
room.
What was he like?
11?
Maybe yeah.
So that's a great point.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
A great point, I think that like I have a kind of
an outsized reaction to this,because it's not just about Luc
lucifer, like this is my, thisis my reaction and it's
partially because it's fiveseasons of like.
In the like very first episodehe's, he's saying to chloe like
yeah, children are awful.
And like was there a mistake orwith it was she planned?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
and like yeah, nothing to write home about, but
the I.
I think that it's.
You're right, it's not justLucifer.
We see it in TV shows all thetime.
You know, like Big Bang Theory,penny spends the entire series
saying that she doesn't want tobe a kid, and then they close
with her being pregnant becausethey wanted to.
They wanted to close the theylike the symmetry of.
(17:41):
In the very beginning, leonardsays our children will be smart
and beautiful, and so closinghis loop is more important than
the fact that Penny didn't wantto be a mother.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
And that I I didn't even know that's how it ended,
Cause I stopped watching severalseasons ago when it became
clear that Penny was not acharacter in her own right, she
was a prize.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, all the more so with the way they closed it
with that yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So yeah, it's not, you're right, it's not just
Lucifer.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
So, and that really irritated me a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
There was also something really like in the
same constellation the fact that, like I just knew when I looked
into her eyes what that feelslike wishful thinking, yes, and
also like Oedipus.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Thank you very much.
I'm not saying like thathappens often, but you know, the
story of Oedipus makes enoughsense that everyone is just like
yeah, I mean, jocasta waspretty young when she had them.
She was still pretty hot.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yuck Um well to me.
Okay, yes, yes, and the thenarrative of of that.
I just looked into her eyes andI knew there was a recognition
(19:17):
there.
It does the same thing where itsort of devalues and makes
wrong someone who might not.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Well it also it devalues, like any other type of
.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
I mean I guess they would say like you'd feel that
way with your child, who youadopt you know, like, yeah, the
impression, I don't know, Idon't know how that, I don't
know how this magic spell would,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Because you know, I don't know if Mira and Robert
Daniel, or whatever his name was, her father like did a
paternity test, but like andwould that negate this lovely
father-daughter relationshipthey have forged?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
if it turns out he's not the biological father, not
the biological father.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I mean like there's just so much in there that just
doesn't fit.
Yeah, with how careful thisshow usually is.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
And like, can I just say, Brianna Hildebrand, who
plays Rory, is way too short tobe the child of Lucifer and
Chloe she is, so she's teeny.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
She's so pretty, though her facial features I
think fit.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Facially.
Yes, she does look like shecould be their child.
Yeah, and like that.
That's not really a thing, it'sjust I.
I thought of that when he hadto like lean down so much to
look at her, to look her in theeye when she was wearing this
huge those huge, um yeah, five,three or something.
(21:05):
She something.
She's not a very tall woman.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, since you brought up Mira, let's talk
about Mira's mom.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yes, the rabbi, who is the potential mother that we
spend the most time with?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yes, Right, yeah, so let's talk about Esther the
rabbi.
So you pointed out the factthat it's curious that,
according to lucifer, they spent15 minutes together having sex
in an orgy, and that's it,though.
(21:37):
She knew his full name and heknew hers, so I you know.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah yeah maybe he was an unreliable narrator on
that, although the full namecould have just been like he
could have just known esther,and like maize did that research
for him because she's so goodat uh, at um, tracking humans,
tracking humans.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So possibly, you know possibly.
You know, possibly so, but shesays that he's the reason that
she decided to become a rabbi,which is very theologically
interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm going to let you take the lead
on this because you're the Torahscholar of the two of us.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well.
So it's a I'm not even sureit's sort of it's Torah.
Like the name LuciferMorningstar is not Jewish in the
least right.
It's a mistranslation of we'vetalked about this before like of
a line from Isaiah.
Kind of gets mistranslated andmaybe maybe it was about the
(22:46):
rebellious angel, maybe not,it's unclear.
Anyway, there is, however, youknow, jewish commentary it's not
torah about or not torah, withthe capital t in the five books,
but there is commentary andstories about the angel who you
know ends up Lilith's consortand his name is taboo to be said
(23:10):
.
His Hebrew name is taboo to besaid among some Jewish groups.
So that guy does exist in theJewish tradition.
It's an interesting question,like how interacting with that
person, that creature being,might put someone on a spiritual
(23:31):
path.
Because one of the thingsthat's really interesting about
Lucifer whether with Esther therabbi or anybody you know Ella
it's not that he's an atheist,he doesn't.
He doesn't disbelieve, quitethe opposite.
(23:53):
He knows for certain that Godis real.
He just doesn't like them, justdoesn't like them.
And there's I.
To me that's a reallyinteresting question, right,
(24:20):
because I think so much of whatwe think about as crises of
faith are about exists ordoesn't exist.
That's.
It's a, it's a decided point.
When it comes to Lucifer, thatis not the question.
The question is not exists ordoesn't exist, it's actually.
It's not even good or bad.
It's sort of I don't knowhealthy or not, uh, looking out
(24:44):
for us or not, and even thatthen becomes a question of free
will.
So the theological questionsthat Lucifer is able to engage
with are actually several levelsabove what we tend to think
about as the traditional crisesof faith.
God exists or God doesn't exist.
That's not it, of course.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
God exists.
He's my dad.
You know one thing that'sthat's this is bringing up for
me.
And again, you, you are aresident religious expert, um,
but my assumption is that Estheris a reform rabbi.
She might be reconstructionist.
(25:27):
Maybe she could also beconservative.
She could be conservative.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Sure, the conservative movement ordains
women, okay.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
So I feel like in the Judaism that we were raised
with, which is reform Judaism,judaism like we're, it's open to
being real mad at God.
I believe that that's generallytrue of Judaism.
I don't know that that isgenerally true of necessarily
other religions, but I like Idon't really have a basis for
(25:59):
comparison.
Just, you know the the, thestuff that I consume about like
extremist religions, that wouldnot go over well.
So like that's something that Ithink is interesting is like
that Lucifer is so angry at Godand whether or not that came up
(26:21):
in the 15 minutes but thatEsther was inspired to follow
this path.
That is about wrangling withand wrestling with these really
big questions of things likefree will and like what, what
does God owe humanity?
(26:42):
What do?
What does humanity owe God?
You know the all of those sortsof things.
So like I don't think it wouldhave worked if she had become
like I don't think that thatstory beat would have worked if
she'd become a Christian pastor,like if she hadn't been Esther,
if she'd been, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
That's an interesting point.
You might be right about that.
I think there are.
That's an interesting point.
(27:29):
You might be right about that.
I think there are.
There's.
Look, I do not want to say astatement about Christians or
Christian clergy, because thereare so many flavors and there
are really thoughtful, beautiful, nuanced theologies coming out
of Christian tradition, and soit is certainly possible that
there could be a similar sort ofpath and there are this sort of
popular understanding wouldn'tjibe with it, right?
So I think if we were writing anovel and we really wanted to
go into the background of thetheology of the particular
(27:50):
whatever, it's not impossibleand for the amount of screen
time that we had, esther, Ithink you're right, rabbi made
the most sense because, as youpoint out, like wrestling with
God is that's what Israel means,like that is the way that we
chose to name ourselves as apeople is that we wrestle with
(28:11):
God?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Well and it's.
I think it's also kind of ashorthand.
Well, it's a visual gag also,Like you get there, she's ending
a prayer and you see, likeshe's ending the Shekeanu for a
baby naming or a bris, a bris.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
He says a bris.
Oh, yeah, he says it's a bris.
Yeah, so it's a visual pun,it's a visual gag in multiple
ways.
So the Shekeanu is the prayerfor um, like a joyful occasion,
like thank God, thanks God forallowing us to reach this moment
, and it's specifically for abris, while we're talking about
(28:55):
babies.
And then there's this woman inTali and in the prayer shawl and
the and the um yarmulke.
So the, the gag is on manylevels, like, if you're in the
know and you know sort of whatthe bris is, you know the prayer
she's ending because she justsaid the last two words of it.
She's a woman in prayer shawland and yarmulke which, as you
(29:18):
pointed out, like that's not allstrains of judaism ordained
women like there.
There's a lot of layers to thatembedded in.
We get a lot of informationvery quickly from the visual,
even the shul.
The synagogue that she's in isvery traditional, looking like
in Moroccan style, like what onemight imagine a synagogue looks
(29:40):
like if you haven't been in one.
It does not look like thesynagogues that you or I attend.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Well, it's also.
What's interesting is I noticedthat no matter which way they
had they framed the shot, therewas some Judaica in the
background.
So, like they, just they wantedto really drive home the point.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Versus.
Like the synagogues that youand I attend.
Look like hotels or officebuildings in the lobby, you know
like you also don't like walkin the door into the sanctuary.
Into the sanctuary yeah, it'svery sort of like what you
imagine in you know Jerusalem orsomething.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
So yeah, yeah, well, and her name is Esther.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Like her name isn't like.
My most recent rabbi had a verypopular first name that like
it's not this, but like Kendall,like it's like right, or my
female rabbis, you know, like Iknow Alyssa and well, deborah's
pretty.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
but, like you know, jesse is a good friend of mine
who's a female rabbi.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
So yeah, so like it.
It it was going for something.
Yeah, and some of it is likeyou know, you and I are going to
dig deep into this.
I think the casual viewer isjust going to be like, oh,
that's kind of funny, in thesame way that if one of his
former conquests had become anun kind of like titillating
funny or a priest priest, yeah,or a female, yeah, so that's
(31:13):
it's interesting to think about,if you like, actually pause.
And then part of the reason whyit also wouldn't make sense if
she had become a pastor was,like Lucifer Morningstar does
exist in the Christian tradition, and how would you make that
(31:35):
work?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's also the case that Judaism is, by and large,
sex positive.
I mean, there are exceptions,obviously again, broad brush but
by and large sex positiveinsofar as, like so she thinks
this person is possibly thefather of her child and she's
not.
She's still delighted to seehim.
There's, there doesn't seem tobe any shame about it.
Like she says, I'm a differentperson than I was, but not in a
(31:58):
way that's like I was dirty.
I'm better now.
Yeah, and I think that would behard to understand.
Sell from a Christian pastor inthe short amount of time that
we have.
And the cultural understandingof what of of, of Christian
(32:18):
attitudes toward premarital sex.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
So anyway so we wanted to talk a little bit
about Lois responses.
Yeah, first of all, how did sheget to Seattle so quickly?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
No idea, they just don't explain it.
It doesn't make sense, it's notpossible.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
I mean like From LA, yeah, from LA to Seattle.
Like LAX is one of the most Imean other than Atlanta, it's
one of the biggest airports inthe country.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
But no, it's it, we're not.
We're just not supposed tothink about that too much.
Yeah, yeah, like they wanted,they, they.
You know he bends down to pickup the piece of clothing that
the the woman has just dropped,and then we see her.
(33:17):
So that's like this sort of funvisual reveal, um, and then
she's annoyed because he's, shethinks he's, soliciting sex, I
don't know with a woman who'snaked in her broad daylight
doorway and he's down on thestairwell.
He's clearly not like rushing upto ravish her.
(33:38):
It.
It is like it just doesn'tquite work.
You know, like, and then shesays you're lying.
You're still lying to me, andthat actually is believable as
why she's mad that there's stillthis like the secrets between
them.
But the initial like I guessthat that was part of the joke
(33:58):
they wanted her to be annoyedabout the sex, but I don't.
Actually that didn't work forme.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well, and she knows the like effect he has on people
Like you're going to have toget used to panties being thrown
at him.
Yeah, I mean, beckonoppenheimer probably has to do
the same thing right tomellison's wife, I mean right but
(34:27):
yeah, I mean that, that's yeah,it just didn't.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
It just doesn't fit.
It was the whole confrontationscene just didn't quite work,
yeah yeah.
And then like so she's going tohave, they're going to figure
it out together, but then she'sjealous of Esther because she
assumes that they have some sortof special spiritual because
she's a rabbi, Like for all ofthe kind of like shorthand
(34:51):
things that we were just talkingabout, which is also an
interesting development.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
You know, that's something I can kind of not in
this case.
I don't feel like, I don't feellike the story earned it.
However, I can say that thereare some things like I have
friends who are writers who Ican talk to, that I know my
spouse it's not jealousy, butit's just this like feels weird
(35:22):
because it's not something heshares with me, yeah, and so
like I can get that where like,and particularly if like oh, and
you share a child together,like share a child together.
I'm going to need a minute.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Sure, yeah, I buy that.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
I get that.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah, I'll follow you .
I'll follow you there, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
They're throwing so much at the wall with Chloe,
this episode of what she'sjealous of, what she's upset
about that you lose the veryreal and understandable reaction
of.
She is not a spiritual personat all, even though she now
knows it's all true, but thereis no sense of wrestling with
(36:03):
God that she has ever done inher life.
So there's someone that heshares a child with supposedly
that's like he had this profoundeffect on who has devoted her
life to something that is a partof his life that she has no
part of.
Okay, yeah, that's reasonable,but it just they don't sell it
in the story.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, I agree with everything that you just said,
yeah, yeah, everything that youjust said, yeah, yeah.
And then I'm really gonnaoverthink this next scene when
they go to, like they're goingto try and find mira, and so
they go to wherever they are.
I don't remember.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
They told us, but I don't remember it's somewhere in
california, yeah, middle ofcalifornia yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
So they, the pi, lost her trail at this little gas
station convenience store placenear the avocado farm.
So we see them arrive withLucifer carrying Chloe.
He puts her down, he thanks herfor flying Lucifer air and then
says something about make sureyour tray table is in the full
upright position.
(37:06):
He says I know mine is chuckles.
And then walks away and like asI'm rewatching it for for this,
I'm thinking, wow, Alice'sdelivery is kind of wooden, no
pun intended.
And and then I'm like no,that's not it, it's just, it's
(37:35):
not a good line, it's not likeintegrated, Like you either make
an erection joke and then tryto get flirty or you don't make
an erection joke.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Well, I mean, as I told you before we started
recording, he makes an erectionjoke and then just lets it hang,
which is the opposite of whatyou want.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Exactly Like you don't like make an erection joke
to the woman you're in lovewith and then start walking away
.
It just, and she doesn't even.
She doesn't touch it at all,she gives it zero, which is what
you don't want.
(38:26):
Yeah, she, she gives it zerowhat you don't want.
Yeah, okay, blushing, um, sothat like this.
That scene was further evidenceto me of what you said about
this a season being rushed, likethe writing, the writing, the
acting, the directing, like itjust didn't hang together.
It just didn't work.
It just didn't work Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Yes, but it did give us this lovely moment.
Yeah, I agree with that, and Ifeel like they were trying to do
too much all at once.
And the thing is, they do, theydo all this.
I mean, I'm even thinking whenhe lands in Miami and he's
(39:08):
approached by the young twinkwho's like hello daddy.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Oh, the twink is like hello daddy, like daddy.
Yeah, he's not old enough to bedaddy, uh like maybe I don't
know, but that also did not readwell, yeah, like it just didn't
work.
That was another moment where Iwas like wow, tom, I usually
you sell me a lot harder onthese things.
(39:31):
I am just not buying you rightnow.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
And they made a similar joke a while ago when
Amenadiel found out that Lindawas pregnant, where he was going
around, like do you have a goodrelationship with your father?
And it was a young gay man whoturned around and was like, oh,
I love all my daddies and thatworked because it felt natural.
Like you know, it's completelyunnatural for for someone to be
(39:56):
going around.
You have a good relationshipwith your father, but like if
someone gets less.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, the twink response felt yeah, yeah, yeah,
it just didn't.
Yes, I thank you for remindingme of that scene because I
remember noting it while Iwatched it yeah, so, and that
felt weird.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
And then just I will say, like the the thing that I
appreciated about this story arcis and we'll get to Rory and
Dan in a second but when Dancomes to Lucifer and Lucifer
(40:41):
like says, like she is mydaughter, and Dan's immediate
reaction is like that isfantastic, congratulations.
Having a daughter is the best.
Like I really appreciated that.
Yeah, having a daughter is thebest.
Like I really appreciated that,especially since she's an adult
.
So it's, it wasn't like, oh,it's such a shame that you
(41:02):
missed her childhood, or likeany of the things that that
could have been like kind of anatural reaction.
Like oh, wow, this is reallytough, you're in a tough
situation.
I'm sure you feel terrible.
It's like, no, this is great,go go have a relationship with
her.
You, you will not regret asecond of it.
And like that, that was reallyjust lovely and profound in a
(41:26):
way that was missing from therest of these episodes.
But, as you said before, westarted recording the relation,
the, the way that dan and roryinteract with each other makes
sense.
Before you know who she is,yeah, we find out at the end of
pin the tail on the daddy thatrory is chloe's daughter as well
(41:48):
, so must be some sort of timetravel thing, in which case she
would know who Dan was.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, and in previous episodes in this season it
seems like she doesn't know whoDan is and the way that she
treats Dan.
There is no way that Rory wouldtreat her sister's father with
such cruelty Not at all.
I just know.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Yeah, and knowing, knowing, I mean we see Trixie
crying in this.
And knowing that, like later on, we learn like the Trixie and
Rory have a good relationship.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
They are sisters who care about each other and so,
knowing the deep hole in Trixie,Well, even the way Trixie later
, later, later in this season Idon't remember which episode,
but eventually Trixie and Danactually do interact with one
another and Trixie talks abouthow much her father meant to her
.
Yeah, and that was like in theyear before Rory was born, and
(42:49):
so having a very imperfect dadwho is now dead I know you
forget about the imperfectthings, right, and the pedestal
just gets taller and taller thelonger they've been gone.
There is no way that Rory wouldI mean she might not have known
that Dan tried to kill him, totry to kill Lucifer.
She might not have known that.
She might not have known thatDan tried to kill him, tried to
(43:10):
kill Lucifer.
She might not have known that,but she would have recognized
him.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
But, she would have known who Dan was.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, and she would not have treated him so cruelly.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
And I like I am certain there are pictures of
him.
Oh my God, yeah, of course, andso she would have recognized
him, even if she would have beenlike, oh that Dan Espinosa?
Yeah, that just doesn't, itdoesn't make sense, nope.
And it is one of the reasons,like, I felt bad for the actress
(43:38):
playing Rory, like she'sjoining an ensemble cast in the
final season.
Yeah, is a tough job, and she'sjoining an ensemble cast in the
final season as an antagonistwho becomes a protagonist.
It's it's, it's yeoman's work.
Yeah, but part of the reasonwhy people are like rory, I
(44:02):
think, is also the way she'streated dan, which is not the
actress's fault, which hasnothing to do with the actress.
Yeah, I think the actress didas good did.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
I think she did a great job with what she had.
Yeah, agreed, yeah, yeah, allright.
Well, um, we've beenoverthinking for a minute.
Should we transition to fluff?
I've got some fluff.
I have a little bit too.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, you go first uh , this is not exactly fluff.
But I refuse to believe linda,who though we know she has had
several professional ethicallapses would be writing a book
about a patient, about a patient, using his full name and using
(44:44):
him and his friends and herfriends to get more information.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not buying it.
Not buying it, and even withwhen we later find out that
she's feeling a little at seabecause her regular patients are
not as interesting and excitingand challenging as working with
(45:04):
celestials, even with that, shewould at least change names.
You know, like that justdoesn't fit.
So like that's a.
It's not exactly fluff, butit's it's like.
Keep your characters consistent.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
And that is not her character.
Yeah, For me it's really silly,but like the way that Chloe
holds the necklace, the thepiece Amenadiel's necklace, like
every time she like like sheholds it like a little knife,
like even just to show him thatshe still has it.
And I just why wouldn't you putit on a leather cord around
(45:44):
your neck, like Amenadiel had,and just pull it out for you,
Like, do you still have it?
Like, yep, Right here, Like apacker chest or something.
It just looked ridiculous andlike she would drop it and like
every time it was like here itis and yeah, I don't know, like
by the third time she likeshowed it.
I was like, can you wear it likea menideal bed, like why are
(46:06):
you doing that where?
Speaker 3 (46:07):
are you keeping it?
How are you?
Other humans who have worn ithave worn it around their neck
it.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
It just was a weird choice, it's weird yeah and um,
and I'm surely overthinking it,but the way she keeps showing it
off it's like vaguely phallic.
I don't know.
Well, I I'm wondering if theywanted to be worshiping on it,
you know, like at the point whenhe says I'll put it in the safe
and she's like no, there's, Idon't know.
(46:35):
It felt a little it was an oddchoice and I don't think it was
only German.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
I think it was a direct royal choice.
I was wondering if they weregoing for a my precious type
thing where, like she's, holdingon to it because she can't bear
to even not have her hands onit maybe, but then we see her
with it, not in her hand, soyeah, so it's like pocket.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
I mean, yeah, it just something about it just didn't
quite feel believable.
Yeah so.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
So one other thing of little little fluff that I
really enjoyed was when theywere cartoons.
They had three fingers and athumb, and I noticed that
because I very firmly believethat cartoon characters.
There's a couple things withcartoon characters.
They have three fingers and athumb all cartoon characters,
(47:26):
even if they don't normally havehands.
There is no fourth finger andthey all have the middle initial
, j yeah, like Rocket J Squirreland Bartholomew J Moose, yep.
Or Bartholomew J Simpson, no,rocket.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's Rocket J Squirrel it's Moose, and
Squirrel who's the moose?
What's his name?
Bullwinkle, bullwinkle.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Bullwinkle, bullwinkle, j Moose.
That's why I said Bartholomew,which is why all of my I believe
pets should have J as a middleinitial as well.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Like Anthony J Anthony Crowley yes, like.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Anthony J Anthony Crowley.
But I had Bonanza J Cat.
I don't know.
I don't know what her last namewas.
It wasn't Guy Guy.
Yeah, bonanza J Guy.
I kind of stopped giving myanimals my last name.
So my first car was a you knowthis, but listeners don't 1972
(48:25):
Volkswagen Super Beetle, and Inamed her Fenchurch Audrey.
And then I was going to giveher the last name Guy, but then
I realized what her initialspell was.
So she was Fenchurch Audrey,volkswagen.
So since then I've been alittle cautious about giving my
animals my last name.
(48:46):
But now it's Birkin.
Yeah, well, but it's Guy Birkin, which sounds like a social
disease.
But no hyphen, I did nothyphenate Guy Birkin because it
sounded like a social disease.
Like you don't want to messwith Emily, she's got Guy Birkin
.
She says she got it from atoilet seat, but that's not
where it came from.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
All right, I don't want to think about Guy Decker
then.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
Well, no, that doesn't sound like a social
disease, that just sounds like aname I don't know, guy or like
I don't even know all right, wewe have devolved into the punchy
.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
At this point, I think it's time to call it time.
Time to go.
Yeah, we've overthoughtenoughown enough.
I will see you next time.
See you next time.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeetcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(49:56):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
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