May 30, 2024 • 50 mins
With these two episodes we get some subtext about addiction and some supertext about racist policing. In “The Murder of Lucifer Morningstar,” the sisters realize on rewatch (especially in the context of our analysis of so many moments of mental health metaphors) that Chloe’s obsession with the super-strength the necklace provides is a stand-in for addiction.
“A Lot Dirtier Than That” provides a big chunk of the story arc that serves as penance for the five seasons of copaganda that came before it. Though the storytelling is heavy-handed in both its visuals and dialogue, our conversation argues the heavy-handedness was necessary in the face of the power of the trope that cops are unequivocally good guys.
Taken together these two episodes provide deeply meaningful moments around grief, loneliness, and regret, powerful social commentary around racism in policing, and seriously cringe-worthy second-hand embarrassment as Lucifer tries (too hard) to connect with the daughter he doesn’t yet have.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker.
She does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's true, and I'm here with my sister, emily
Guy-Bur.
She does use a hyphen.
It's true, and I'm here with mysister, emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen, nohyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we're overthinking it.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Yes, we are overthinking it, and today we're
going to.
We are overthinking it, andtoday we're going to overthink
605 and 606, the murder ofLucifer Morningstar, and a lot
dirtier than that.
Yes, so yeah, and so, listeners, if you're listening to this on
(01:01):
the podcast, then you saw nobreak, but if you were one of
our YouTube followers, you knowthere was a long break between
recording our last episode andthis one, so apologies.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
To be honest, we were like, okay, we need to record
more of Lightbringers becausewe're going to run out of what
we've already recorded.
I was like I really don't wantto watch any more of season six.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I was the same way.
If we weren't so close, I wouldhave told you like it was fun,
let's just call it but so close,so close.
This one and then two more ofour episodes, yeah, and then
we'll round out the season, theseries, we'll say that episode
606, about to get a lot dirtier.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
A lot dirtier than that.
A lot dirtier than that ErinDungy's guest starring
performance as Officer SoniaHarris, although she's in
several other episodes as well.
But we'll hold off on that.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Let's start with yeah , let's start with the Murder of
Lucifer Morningstar.
So when I watched it the firsttime and again I've said this
before, but like everybody elsewho was already watching when
season six dropped, I binged itRight and I think I was just
slightly titillated by the Chloelike aggressively fighting with
(02:36):
him and that one.
And then you know she's on topof him with the sword and he's
like I didn't see this coming,which I know is a kind of a pet
peeve, it's a callback, but itis a callback in this show and
so I was just kind of titillatedby that and whatever it just
like flew by In rewatch,especially in the frame of the
way we have talked about theshow in terms of analogies for
(02:58):
mental health stuff, seeing thatas a metaphor and analogy for
substance abuse and addiction,was really really interesting to
me.
And the way that Chloe is kindof overcome by guilt and remorse
when Lucifer says I didn'tthink you would be the one that
(03:19):
would be my killer and she'slike no, I would never hurt you,
but while she's holding theknife to his throat yeah, and
it's not just any knife, it isAzrael's blade which will wink
him out of existence.
So I thought that was a really.
It was more interesting to methis time around in rewatch
because of our framing and theway that we've been talking
about it and also that we tookour time with it.
(03:40):
We really took our time with it, but you wasn't just like give
me, give me, give me, give me,give me, give me.
You know, I actually was likesavoring it a little bit more
and I was able to see some ofthose, those those additional
subtexts which, for me inparticular and I know you share
this with me are not alwaysavailable to me on a first watch
(04:01):
.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting.
I hadn't thought about it aslike a substance abuse thing,
that that and I think you'reabsolutely right, it's that's
spot on.
Like she's doing exactly whatsomeone who is struggling with a
substance abuse would do or anykind of addiction, or any kind
(04:45):
of addiction.
I appreciate it because itmakes it clear that this can
happen to anyone, even like thestrongest person that Dan has
ever met.
He said the strongest womanI've ever met.
But I'm sorry, I'm putting theword person in, putting the word
(05:05):
person in eat it.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
When people say that I hate it when they're like, oh,
she's a remarkable woman, no,she's a remarkable person anyway
so I also think it'ssignificant that it was this
strength thing that, like no onecould be like, oh well, you
shouldn't be doing that anywaythe way that someone might
around substance use yeah andand there's, and there's very
little judgment from Lucifer.
(05:27):
I mean, the judgment comesreally, even though he's the one
that's endangered.
He says it's not your fault,the blade does that to all
humans.
And it's Chloe who says no, Ihad lost control even before I
touched the blade.
This is me, I have to takeresponsibility, and so I think
there's something really lovelyin the modeling of both the
(05:48):
person who is caught in theaddiction, chloe, and also the
loved one who, who is harmed andcould have been harmed much,
much worse by the addiction.
So I think, in that sense, likeI, I appreciated the modeling
of what what that exchange canlook like, which was one of love
(06:12):
.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
And I I have to say so.
I know there's a lot of Roryhate in the fandom, which I I
get annoyed by because it feelsknee jerk rather than
necessarily responding to hercharacter.
But I will say, watching thesetwo episodes, this time I was
like Rory, you're giving, you'remaking it hard because so like
(06:41):
Chloe's trying to apologize toher, like this was my fault that
your father thought that youwere going to try to kill him,
and Rory is like no, no, he'sawful, you're great, and I know
that is.
That could probably be asimilar dynamic to um in a
alcoholic family or a familywhere where a parent is dealing
(07:03):
with, uh, with any kind ofsubstance abuse, although she
doesn't during Rory's childhood.
But I was getting a littlefrustrated by that because it's
like I know that Rory idolizesher mother and I think that
there's something wonderfulabout that in a lot of ways.
But it's frustrating becauseit's like about that in a lot of
(07:27):
ways.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
But it's frustrating because it's like recognize that
she's frail and human as well,please.
Yeah, I see that I also.
I believed it because we don'tknow it yet from these two
episodes, but we find out in afuture episode that rory's sent
back because she's at hermother's deathbed.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
And so.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I think that her viewing Chloe, this younger
version of Chloe that sheremembers from being a small
child, it makes sense to me thatshe would idolize her, that she
would reject.
This is my fault, knowing thatshe's got mom's whole history of
being a single parent and momis dying in her time.
(08:08):
So I hear what you're saying interms of like, logically, and
maybe even as like modeling thatthe show might model for us to
remember that even our parentshave feet of clay, and also in
terms of characterization.
It made sense to me that wedon't see it yet, but especially
, I know that's, that's where,that's that's a very good point.
(08:31):
That's a very good point, yeah Imean, like now he's been gone
11 years, we can talk about theways in which dad screwed up and
like we wish he had done better, but like in the first few
weeks or when we knew he wasdying, it was a lot harder.
Yeah, I mean, I didn't blamemom, but knowing that that's
(08:55):
what's happening in Rory'stimeline, I think it changes
things for me.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's fair.
I think that's fair.
And it's not that I'd forgottenthat, it's just part of it was
I was kind of disappointed inChloe in these two episodes and
not like the lying about theblade and things like that.
(09:26):
That's not exactly why I wasdisappointed in her, although
the like it didn't help.
But you know, recognizing thatthat is like some kind of
addiction like that, that, thatwas like reasonable.
But in the second episode, whenshe was kind of dismissing a
man, a deal and I don't know, I,I just I I feel like her feet
(09:50):
of clay are are on display herewell, let's talk about the
second episode, because I thinkthat was intentional and and and
important actually.
So, oh sure, sure, sure, I sure.
It's one of those where, sinceI'm seeing this 360 view of
Chloe, and like anyway, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
We don't have to talk about the second no.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I do, I do want to talk about it.
I mean, I have a lot more tosay about the second episode
than I do the first.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, me too, me too, me too.
But honestly, the first episodeis a little bit forgettable
except for the except for thefight scene between Chloe and
Lucifer.
Yeah, Um the.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
The one thing from that episode that I held on to
is like please don't do your sexmath in front of me.
Yeah, that I appreciate it.
It was worth the price ofadmission, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So, yeah, cute, yeah.
So let's talk about this oneepisode six, which I understand
that db woodside fought for abit, which you know.
So it it.
It aired in these aired in 2021.
So this is after george floyd'smurder.
So I think that everyone in thecast, in particular DB Woodside
(11:06):
, really grappling with the factthat they've been making
propaganda for five years whenGeorge Floyd was murdered, and
so this episode, the story arc,was a bit of a penance, I think.
Well, no, actually, I know DBWoodside had to fight for the
episode about Caleb, which wasseveral seasons ago, that was
(11:28):
season four.
Yes, I don't know if he had tofight for this one.
I think that all of the castwere grappling with it.
I know Tom Ellis, in hisprivate like in his social media
presence, had done some workaround, using his platform to to
promote anti-racist work, andso I think that a lot of folks
(11:51):
who were involved in makingmaking this show grappling with
with the fact that they've beenmaking propaganda and this story
, this story arc, is a bit ofpenance.
So I honestly, like I textedyou while I was watching it
yesterday.
It was a little bit hard for mebecause this episode is all on
the one side with Rory andLucifer.
There's all this secondhandembarrassment because he's
(12:11):
trying so hard and it's just, oh, it's so cringy, painful, yeah,
and then they cut over to thisracist policing.
So it's like back and forthbetween this like secondhand
embarrassment, which I have youand I both don't care for, yeah,
and then this racist policingstuff which is just so
infuriating and it was, it'shard, it's hard to watch as
(12:34):
important as this episode is,because I completely agree with
you.
I'm glad we have season six justfor this episode, and also it
is hard to watch.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I imagine for other members of the fandom the
Rory and Lucifer subplot iscomic relief.
Yeah, Like, if they're not, ifyou don't feel the secondhand
embarrassment like Tracy and Ido, you probably were like, oh,
thank goodness for the Santa andChristmas gifts thing.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, which I just couldn't.
It was yeah, I was, I was yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It was awful, I was playing Solitaire on my phone so
I had to launch that directly.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
I had a second screen as well.
It was really hard for me, yeah, yeah.
So but the reason I wanted tobring us here because I think
Chloe's Feet of Clay, chloe, isthe proxy for the showrunners
here and for so many whiteAmericans who think they
understand how the world works,because they've never.
It's like they've never.
(13:27):
Oh yeah, in this episode,chloe's feet of clay, her
disappointing behavior, wasnecessary.
Oh sure, yeah, for the work,the penance that the show was
(13:52):
doing.
We had to see and we had to seeas the viewers, we had to see
that she was wrong in order,because she's our proxy here,
those of us who are whiteAmericans watching.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Something that I felt like the show did very well was
when Reuben calls Amenadiel inand Amenadiel thinks he's going
to get yelled at and Reuben'slike I remember you, you met me
at a really tough, bad time.
That's not the man I am, andChloe had said something about
like, oh, he had to have gone tosensitivity training and blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, andAmenadiel kind of relaxes a
little bit like, oh, okay, likethe LAPD is good, you know that
(14:36):
guy, he screwed up and you knowwe all screw up, but then
immediately pulls the rug outfrom under him and clearly this,
uh, mikhail is the murderer,and so I appreciated that,
because that is so clearly whathappens where something like
sensitivity training teaches youhow to be a better racist.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It certainly can yeah .
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Um and that's I mean.
That's not always the case, buta lot of times people learn the
language of progressive justicemovements without actually
doing any of the interior work.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, I want to.
I actually want to nuance whatyou said.
It teaches one to hide theirracism more effectively.
Yes, Right.
That's.
That's actually the what.
What is happening?
And that happens when youapproach it as if it's a
transaction and not atransformation.
You know so.
I do some training anti-racisttraining in my day job and I
know if a client comes to me andthey say just tell me what
(15:35):
words I'm not allowed to say,that person is not, they're not
going to get it, they're notready, they're not there because
they're treating it as if it'sa transaction and that's not
what's happening here.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So Well, and I had.
I remembered the plot from whenI saw this the first time, but
I didn't.
I didn't remember the nuancesor anything like that, so I
didn't recall that.
It was like a like oh okay,he's, he's, he's learned, he's
better.
And then the rug pulled out.
But I immediately, this timearound and I don't remember if I
(16:09):
did the first time around Iclocked.
When he says that's not the manI am, because I know just from
personal experience, I know frombeing involved in certain types
of diversity training, whenpeople say that's not who I am
involved in certain types ofdiversity training, when people
say that's not who I am, theyare incapable of recognizing
(16:33):
like that it might be.
And so like, if you saysomething like that's not who I
want to be and I'm working notto be someone who allows that to
happen in myself or near me,and it's the I.
I so appreciate that writingbecause it makes it clear.
It's a very clear distillationof like that white fragility,
like it's also a call that it'sa.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
It's a call out to the way that so many people were
talking after george floyd'smurder saying this is not who we
are as a country.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah it, it is.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, it's what I mean.
Like you are what you do, right, like if it walks like a duck
and it talks like a duck, whichdoesn't mean it's who we have to
be.
Yes, so I think that you knowthat that caught, he's caught in
that good, bad binary.
Like you know, racists are badand I'm not bad.
Therefore, I can't be racist.
Yes, not how it works.
Yes, not how it works.
So, yeah, I think I actually Ithink that was very good writing
(17:28):
.
I agree, in fact, I think thatwhole storyline.
I didn't love the cringy stuffwith Rory and Lucifer and I
didn't love the racist policing,because it is so painful,
because I wish that's not who wewere, but we are, and I think
it did a really good job ofbringing an audience who didn't
come here for that Right, theycame here for a handsome devil,
(17:51):
and I think it does a reallygood job of bringing them along.
And that's exactly why Chloeneeded to be like, no, that's
not what's happening, of coursewe're good, so that she could
have that realization along withus.
I think the writing was reallygood on that story arc.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yes, the thing that I think is part of the reason why
this is necessary is the factthat when I first started
watching the show in 2018, thatthe main character, other than
the title character, is supposedto be above reproach really
(18:34):
good person who works for theLAPD and I was like uh-huh, yep,
I'm watching.
When my earliest understandingof the differences in what it
means to be a black personversus a white person in America
was because of Rodney Kingbeing beaten on camera by the
LAPD in the early 90s.
I believe that was so like I aslike I don't know, I was 13, 14
(18:59):
years old, I was a kid.
I was a kid and it was clearthat the LAPD, specifically,
were committing brutality for noreason and those lessons don't
stick for white folks.
Like so that you know 22 yearslater in you know 20,.
(19:22):
I didn't watch it until 2018 orso, but however many years later
, I can be like uh-huh, yep, yep, yep.
Okay, they made a like a one,one word comment about your
corrupt little organization.
But yeah, lapd, they're goodguys and that's that's something
that we need to grapple with,and that was something in
(19:43):
watching it this time.
I was just like really, really,could Chloe be like?
Oh yeah, I mean, I know there'ssome bad stuff that happens
sometimes, but generally itworks out.
I'm like really which is notfair of me, because that's who I
was in 2018 when I was watchingit.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, all of those things and one of the things
that I think that washeavy-handed but needed to be,
and I'm glad that it was is thatfinal scene, or not quite final
scene, but the scene in thegraveyard with michaela, when,
like, we're relaxing because thebad guy put his gun down and
then the cops show up and werealize that michaela's life is
(20:22):
in danger again and Amanda Dealhas to actually stand between
his colleagues and this girl.
And it was heavy handed and I'mglad that it was.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
So that reminded me of.
There were two moments thatprior to George Floyd's murder
that really helped me understandthe fact that my privilege
shields me no matter whathappens, and one of them was the
(21:00):
final scene in the movie GetOut, where Chris played by
Daniel Kuleya, I think, is howyou pronounce his last name he's
getting away, he's fightingwith Rose, his girlfriend, who
is evil, and he's got the upperhand.
And then they hear sirens andsee lights and you see her kind
(21:24):
of like relax into a smile, likeoh, there's no way that you can
survive this.
And then it turns out that it'shis friend and and he gets away
.
And that's actually apparentlybecause Jordan Peele decided it
was too bleak for it to end with.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
That wasn't the original ending, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
And watching that moment and realizing that I have
that same ability that Rosedoes and I truly believe I would
never use it.
But I can't know.
I cannot know that I wouldnever use that.
Oh, I'm just a sweet littlewhite lady.
(22:06):
I can't know that.
And so that's part of why I feltlike that heavy handed moment
in the episode is so importantbecause we need to be, through
fiction, in the headspace of theperson who is the person, who
is the person, who is the personwho is the person who is the
person who is the person who isthe person who is the person who
is the person who is the person, who is the person, who is the
person, who is the person, whois the person who, in the
(22:27):
headspace of the person, whoknows that they have something
to fear from the cops.
And I got there because ofJordan Peele, because I'm
watching Chris do everything hecan to try to survive.
He is the hero, he is theprotagonist, and it is clear he
(22:48):
is there alone, and so I amentirely identifying with him.
And the same thing with thisyoung woman who I was thinking
about, like the casting, there'ssomething about her that is and
you know, some of it is she's agood actress.
She seems scared, she seemsvulnerable.
But there's something about herthat also like know some of it
is she's.
She's a good actress, she'sshe's.
She seems scared, she seemsvulnerable.
But there's something about herthat also like I don't know
(23:09):
about you, but I felt veryprotective of her and you know
some of that's writing, some ofthat's acting choices, some of
that's direct directorialchoices.
Yeah, I think the director.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
The directorial choices were also very good in
that, like they give us morethan once the, the juxtaposition
of the truly bad guy who's thewhite dude, like just standing
there completely comfortable andthen michaela cowering with her
hands over her head, uh, and wesee that twice.
And yes, and the bad cop sayingget her, take her down.
(23:43):
About this young woman who'scowering.
Yeah, and that visual metaphor,I think again very heavy handed
and also what we needed in 2021.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Mm, hmm, well, and honestly still need.
Yeah, we still need today.
Yeah, we still need today.
I I believe it was in 2020, butI posted something on social
media about the fact thatthere's so many of the things
that so much of the media weconsume casts the police as the
good guys and how I really needto to like grapple with that,
(24:20):
and an acquaintance of mine, whoI know tends to be relatively
conservative, is like well, it'sbecause they are the good guys.
I'm like well for us, for us,they're the good guys and are
they, are they even for us?
And like why do we believe thatthey're the good guys?
Why?
Where does that come from?
Why does that?
Why is that something thatwe're so quick to agree to in?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
fiction.
I mean, we know why it'sbecause of fiction.
It's because we all grew upwatching.
You know all of the.
I mean remember, when we firststarted recording for this, for
our show, I remember thinkinglike, well, what else would it
be besides a procedural?
It's like our default chassison which we build all episodic
television yes or not all but alot.
We build all episodictelevision, yes or not, all but
(25:07):
a lot, a lot of episodictelevision.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
A lot of episodic television, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I can remember the theme song for Hill Street Blues
that like mom would watch afterwe went to bed when we were
kids.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You know, yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And there was Barney Miller and I mean like there
have been so many and they werecomedies and they were dramas
and law and order.
The cops are the good guys.
That is the way that we havebeen taught, based on so much
pop culture.
It's not a single show in everygenre, you know like there's
(25:47):
the absurd with brooklyn 99, andthen there's the very serious
with law and order, svu.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
you know it's well, and then there's like there's
noir films and gritty and like Imean there's, there's so much,
and even even our superherofilms.
So I've been thinking, thinkingabout Batman quite a bit
recently because my youngestreally likes Batman and even,
like he loves Spider-Man as welland so like Spider-Man Into the
Spider-Verse.
(26:14):
As much as I adore that movieand it is fantastic, miles' dad
is a cop.
Miles' dad is a cop and like heobjects to Spider-man because
he's a vigilante which fair butat the same time it's like his
dad doesn't really understandwhat's going on in the world.
(26:37):
And then you know, like batman'skind of a fascist, like a
billionaire who stops pettycriminals yeah yeah, with the
help of commissioner gordon,like what, the, what and even
(26:59):
even paw patrol, like the, the.
My kids have outgrown it atthis point, but they really were
into paw patrol and why not?
They're adorable puppies and Ido believe yeah, they're cops.
I do believe in about 30 yearswe're gonna get a gritty reboot
of the dogs yeah, the gen zedsuh grow up that are making films
(27:22):
.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Aye, aye, aye, yeah.
So another thing that I thinkthat the writers did really
really well, as did the actorsand the directors.
So we're given that moment tograpple with, where this young
woman is towering and verynearly dies.
(27:45):
And then we see Amenadiel andand Harris talking about it
afterwards and that like, how doyou do it?
And, um, you know, if we hadn'tbeen there she would have died
and the and the, the beats wereso tight.
If we hadn't been there shewould have.
He hadn't even finished sayingthe line before her was like,
(28:06):
but we were there, we were, andthat's why I do it.
And I thought that was also areally lovely lesson where so
amenity has got Chloe on the oneside, who is sort of saying
like we'll figure this out andget to the bottom of it and
(28:27):
Chloe's naive and Chloe doesn'tunderstand, and also thinking
about root causes is reallyimportant.
And then he's got Harris sayingI do the most help I can and it
, and it breaks my heart thatthese kids are afraid of this
uniform.
If I'm out here, I can make adifference and like holding both
(28:48):
of those, that direct serviceand root cause work.
Both are necessary if we'regoing to get to a future where
kids aren't afraid, don't haveto be afraid, don't have reason
to be afraid of the uniform Ithought that was was really,
really powerful.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I I also.
I appreciated that because Iknow, um, like something that
can be.
I feel strange talking aboutthis because I am not black, but
, uh, seeing people frommarginalized communities go into
policing can feel very odd, andI am coming at it from a very
(29:31):
privileged position.
But, like when Amenadiel thecharacter was like, I think I
want to become a police officerI was like and I had a similar
reaction in the TV show of NewGirl with Winston decided, like
he wasn't sure what he wanted todo with his life.
It was several seasons on.
He realized he was very good atsolving, like puzzles,
mysteries, and so he decided hewanted to become a police
(29:52):
officer.
And that New Girl I can'tremember exactly when it ran,
but it ended like 2016, 2017.
It's been a while ago and Iremember I was watching it
sometime in the last four yearsand I was just like, oh God, no,
don't make, don't make Winstondo that.
And so what I did appreciateabout this episode was that it
(30:17):
made it clear that there is aplace for even actors playing
characters.
You know, black actors playingcharacters who are police
officers, like Maren Dungy, whoI she is a character actor who
I've seen in many, manydifferent shows.
She is Terry Crews' wife.
On Brooklyn Nine-Nine she playsthat character, and she was a
(30:38):
character in Better Off Ted andI've just kind of like every
time I see her I was like, ohhey, it's my friend, like I just
really like her a lot.
And then I follow her on socialmedia and she is very outspoken
and uses the platform that shehas to do to put good in the
world and so like I reallyappreciated, like on kind of a
(31:00):
metal level, like that there isa way that putting on a police
uniform, even as an actor, canalso work towards changing the
brutality of the police systemthat we have in our country.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, yeah, so I'm going to move us along a little
bit.
Sure, because I want to talkabout the scene with chloe and
dan.
I think was that in the firstepisode.
That was in the first episode.
Yes, yeah, so I'm backing us upa little bit.
(31:40):
But that scene where Luciferrealizes that she might still be
able to see him while she holdsthe necklace, um, and, and that
kind of the exchange betweenthem, I found myself, I actually
it made me cry, me too, and Iwas, I was grateful for that
(32:03):
kind of moment of where we justsort of see these two people
whose lives are inextricablyconnected, who were no longer
romantically involved, and theway that Chloe is able to say
she was like, grateful she wasable to be there for him when he
passed, and, and her beingreally vulnerable and and and
(32:26):
talking about being scared and Idon't know.
I really that scene deeplymoved me.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, well, it struck me in that so often, after
someone you love passes away,you think like if only I could
just talk to them one more time.
And she got to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And this is someone who knows her in a way and it's
not better, but a different waythan anyone else in her life.
And that's true of like youknow.
You know me in a different waythan my spouse does, then you
know our parents do.
And that's true of like youknow.
You know me in a different waythan my spouse does, than you
know our parents do, and sobeing able to be the fullness of
(33:13):
the person because that personknows you when they're gone is
just it's heart wrenching.
It's just it's heart-wrenching.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
There's something really again like satisfying and
comforting though, in thatafter the, she says give us a
couple hours, and then hedisappears.
She can't see him because Iguess the sword has been taken
to heaven, but he's still there.
We see him, we know he hears herin that final thing that she
(33:48):
says then when she thanks himthat she needed this and and and
thanks him for coming and forsaying the things that he said,
and there's something reallyreally comforting and satisfying
and hopeful about that.
That even when she didn't likeshe didn't know whether or not
her message was getting acrossshe thought that it was, she
wasn't sure, but we know that itwas to the deceased I found
that also like a deeplycomforting in.
(34:10):
You know, she got that thingthat we all fantasize about with
someone who's passed, which islike just if I could just talk
to them one more time.
And then, even once he was notthere, there's this reassurance
in that moment, like themechanism by which she was able
to see him and hear him was gone, but that didn't mean that her
(34:32):
message, that her, her love wasnot received, and that like as a
sort of metaphor for therelationship we have with those
who've passed is also likedeeply comforting and satisfying
.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, this is not really related to Lucifer, but
you probably.
This happens to you too, whereI dream about dad relatively
frequently.
Yeah, like once or twice a yearat this point.
It used to be a lot morefrequently, used to be a lot
more, and this has happenedbefore with previous people
who've passed away in our lives,and often the dream is that
(35:07):
there, there, there was amistake, not really dead?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
He's not really dead.
Yeah, I've had that dream.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And when I wake up the next morning and I have had
this my whole life where I willdream something and it will be a
few days later when I'm like,wait, that didn't really happen.
And it's because I'm notthinking directly about it, it's
just, you know, some morebackground noise.
And so I really do feel like Idon't believe that there's any
(35:35):
kind of consciousness oranything after death, but it
does feel like I visited withdad.
When I dream about him, andthere is this sense that, like,
I feel like, while he's still indreams, to the point where,
like, it'll be a day or twowhere I'm like, no, like I know
that that wasn't real, that,that, that kind of that keeps
(35:58):
the, the, the, the spirit of whodad was alive, in a way.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
That's, you know, like it's just kind of lovely,
it's like Coco right, they, thepeople, don't truly pass on
until we, until they'reforgotten.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yes, yeah, that is really helpful.
And the the one thing that nowI know this has to do more with
child actor, but the fact thatwe don't see Trixie in these two
episodes and the fact that youknow, like she's at science camp
(36:34):
for the summer and they theytalk a little bit at like how is
she?
She's doing as well as shecould be.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Well, we did see her.
We, we see Dan watching.
Well, we comfort her as she, asshe sobs and says I miss my
daddy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
But and some of this is that I have experienced the
loss of a father.
I have not experienced the lossof like a co-parent, but that
that is something that, yeah,and I know we get the moment
between Dan and Trixie later,yeah, further along.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
But it and we needed to save that.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
The storytellers needed to save that moment.
They needed Trixie to not bethere.
Yeah, because that was theirpunchline, that was their how he
, that's his get out of hellcard, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And it's like I guess what just struck me is like
she's at science camp for thesummer was just like oh, that
does not seem like the rightplace for a kid who's gone
through trauma well, there'sthat, there's that.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
But I mean, we've said we said before that season
six writing feels a little bitrushed.
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah.
So I feel like we're we've hitthe the high notes of what I
wanted to make sure that wetalked about.
Do you want to talk about atall ella starting to think that
something is wrong, or should wesave that for the future
(38:05):
episodes, when it gets?
Speaker 2 (38:06):
um, I'd like to save that for future episodes.
I do want to talk a little bitabout Lucifer and Rory bonding
over a bridge over troubledwaters.
Yeah, so like, as you as wementioned the the all the
different ways he was trying toto connect with her in that
second episode, we're justcringy and like brianna
(38:30):
hildebrand's like wtf face waspretty amazing I think she was
cast really really well, oh yeah, yeah, like she looks like she
could be their child, like interms of just like her phenotype
, her facial features, etc.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Which I think is really I I don't know.
I like, I believe it.
I believe that they're relatedin that way.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
And then the like, her acting choices, like when
she's messing with maze and Eveand a mena deal like it.
It just like it.
It works, yeah, and then.
But also her, her, her angerand sadness and and upset also
really works, yeah, and then.
But also her, her, her angerand sadness and and upset also
really works.
(39:17):
So it makes sense that thatLucifer would throw himself into
like okay, I gotta be there forher now and like, do the the
over the top Lucifer thing thathe does?
So like, I totally get that.
And so I appreciated thatthat's like it was in character
that he would go over the top.
(39:38):
And then it also fits that itwas music that brought them
together, because that is who heis.
We saw that with father frank.
That's how he became friendswith Father Frank.
And also it makes sense that hewouldn't think of it, you know,
and that moment was just lovely.
It was a lovely moment and,yeah, I really appreciated that.
(40:18):
There is one other thing thatI'd forgotten that I wanted to
mention.
Lucifer has made it clear fromthe very beginning that he wants
to be a good father.
I really get tired of the TV,the pop culture phenomenon,
(40:40):
where someone who has nointerest in having kids, becomes
a parent and is, like,immediately, a good one.
And there's no question of likeand like.
It's not this particular show,it's not this particular,
because character-wise it makessense you actually have made
this point before.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
It's been a very long time since we recorded it, but
you made this point, yeah, in aour two episodes ago of of light
bringers, that this is a thingthat that that pop culture does,
especially to female characters.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yes, yeah, and that's .
Speaker 3 (41:18):
It's just infuriating that, uh, that we, we get this
yeah, I, I agree, and also tothe show's credit, like, I think
, the moment between lucifer andmaize, when she's like are you
asking for my advice?
Like that conversation, ormaybe it was with dan, I don't
remember at some point somebodysays like, just don't, that's
(41:40):
why I don't want kids, and he'slike, yeah, me too.
But here I am, yeah, and so Ifeel like they're.
They did much more so than like, say, big Bang Theory, where
they made it Penny did not wantkids, ever, ever, ever.
And then like she's pregnant,yay, yeah, and there was no
(42:00):
grappling.
Like I feel like they at leastacknowledge that when he says
right, but here I am and hereshe is, and so I feel like that
actually doesn't make it okay,cause this is a pattern, and
also I feel like it handled itmore sensitively than than other
(42:25):
examples of the pattern haveand do.
When you talked about it before.
You talked about the fact thatyou've always known that you
wanted to be a parent, and alsohow infuriating it is that
people just say, oh well, you'llchange your mind.
Two characters we make themchange their minds so that we
(42:55):
which is it's a, it's areinforcing pattern where we say
to young women like, oh, you'llchange her.
And then pop culture shows uswomen like penny changing their
minds without going through anysteps of like.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I knew this wasn't what I wanted, but I'm going to
make the most of the situationthat we're in.
You know and and you know thisisn't what I wanted, but since
it's happening, I want to makesure that I do the best I can.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Even like we have so few examples in pop culture of
just like.
I just don't want that for me,oh my goodness, I know.
I just don't want that for me.
I like kids.
Kids are great, but not for me.
I won't be a good parent, Idon't want it, and that's a
legitimate choice.
We are not shown that as alegitimate choice in pop culture
.
Yeah yeah, there's alwayssomething wrong with the
childless, especially woman Ifshe's childless by choice.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
There's something wrong with her emotionally, I
have to say.
I feel like Sex and the City isone of the only shows that has
done this.
There's an episode where theytalk about abortion and I think
it's when Miranda realizes thatshe's pregnant with her son and
Samantha talks about she's hadtwo abortions and she has no
regrets.
Carrie has had an abortion andshe's dating Aiden.
(44:08):
At the time, I never watchedthe show.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
You're telling me this like I know the characters.
Just FYI, I'm not a Sex and theCity girl.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Like I know the four main women, but when you talk
about their love interests, likeno idea.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay, so she's dating John Corbett.
So you know who that is.
Chris in the Morning.
Chris in the Morning yeah, Inever liked him because of his
response to her Like when she'sshe's like talking about what's,
what's going on with Mirandaand he, he's like, well, you
would never have an abortionRight, and she feels like she
has to lie to him.
And then later on she tells himthe truth and I'm just like
(44:43):
fuck that shit, because shewould have been a bad mother, Um
, she would not have been ableto like that was not right for
her and it's her body.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
And that like the fact that the show does not
shame Samantha for, like, sayingloudly and proudly I have had
two abortions, I have no regrets.
If you want to talk about it,miranda, let's talk about it.
And Miranda ultimately decidesto have the baby, not because
she has any shame about the ideaof terminating the pregnancy,
but because she realizes maybethis is my baby, like, maybe
(45:19):
this is the time, this is theplace I thought I might want
kids and maybe I should justlike that this is it, this is
the right time.
And that's amazing, like itgrapples with it.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Yeah, yeah, I, it grapples with it.
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to bringus back.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yes, because Lucifer is the show we're talking about
now.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, yeah.
So in fact we've been talkinglong enough that I think I'm
going to, unless there's anotherlike key point that you want to
make sure that you make.
I'm going to ask if you noticedany fluff that you wanted to
share.
Noticed any?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
fluff that you wanted to share.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
So the woman that Rory flirts with in the other
car, the woman that looks likeSteven Tyler.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, I did not get what.
Now I know I understand thatthey wanted her to be older than
Rory for that to be a reasonwhy Lucifer like disapproved and
tried to scare her off.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
But I didn't, yeah, yeah, I don't know, especially
because later lucifer's sort ofoffering her like sex and drugs
and rock and roll, like why didhe care?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
yeah yeah yeah, so, and yeah, that was, that was a
weird moment I also have to saylike Lucifer's beard is too much
Like it's.
It's the five o'clock shadowhe's always had, but it's like
more.
It's like a seven o'clockshadow and it's like dude.
(46:45):
Why, why, why?
Speaker 3 (46:47):
why I didn't.
I did not notice that.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
So those are the only couple of only couple things.
Oh, I did look it up because Iwas like the singing at the end.
I was like, is that Rory?
Is that Brianna Hildebrand?
And I looked it up and she's asinger.
So you know, obviously it wasnot being recorded in the moment
, but that is her voice the.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Actually that was a little, a little bit of a speed
bump for me.
It was clear to me that was hervoice, but it's also clear that
she was lip-syncing.
To a studio recorded like that,the sound quality was just off.
Yeah, sort of an acousticsitting in the penthouse, yeah
it just I don't.
There was something about itthat just felt off off in that
(47:27):
in the actual moment, like themusic was lovely, the moment was
lovely, but there was somethingthat didn't match between the
two so, yeah, yeah, that thatdefinitely.
I noticed that as well.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to think if there's any
other fluff that I want to sharewhat uh well about ella and uh
like when she's like trying tohint at a mena deal.
Yeah, and like I know he'sfocused, but I feel like he
would have like picked up thehints well, especially when
she's looking for wings or ahalo, yeah like the wings.
(48:05):
I can kind of understand becauseit's just because it could just
be patting his back, you know,in a kind of awkward way.
But then when she then was likelooking for the halo, it's just
like, oh come on, you're smartif he doesn't have.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
Hey, like if halos aren't really a thing then maybe
I, I don't know.
Yeah it, it was definitely.
It seemed like he would havecaught on to something,
especially then when he likeslips and says so he does, he
goes to his celestial like Iwould know if something were
happening I would feel it yeah,so he eventually yeah, yeah,
(48:38):
yeah, although it is significantthat the she led with her sock
yeah, which was, I mean theywrote it that way to make it
easier for him to dismiss it andand also, like she's smart.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
She wouldn't leave with her sock.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I don't think she would leave with the sock.
Yeah, she would leave with thefrog that fell out of the sky
onto her Jeep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Rushed, rushed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
All right.
Well, this has been fun, sortof just partay, and like he's
doing the dancing and I'm justlike so I kind of love
embarrassing my children, like II try not to do it in public,
like just when we're in thehouse.
But like I was not, I was, Iwas rory in that moment oh, it
was not, it was, it was hard towatch.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
I found it really hard to watch.
I found that his song numberhard to watch.
Uh, yeah, yeah, it was notenjoyable for me, not fun.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Yeah, yeah, all right , well, until next time, m until
next time our theme song isferal angel waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
(50:21):
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeetcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
(50:45):
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker.
She does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's true, and I'm here with my sister, emily
Guy-Bur.
She does use a hyphen.
It's true, and I'm here with mysister, emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen, nohyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we're overthinking it.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Yes, we are overthinking it, and today we're
going to.
We are overthinking it, andtoday we're going to overthink
605 and 606, the murder ofLucifer Morningstar, and a lot
dirtier than that.
Yes, so yeah, and so, listeners, if you're listening to this on
(01:01):
the podcast, then you saw nobreak, but if you were one of
our YouTube followers, you knowthere was a long break between
recording our last episode andthis one, so apologies.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
To be honest, we were like, okay, we need to record
more of Lightbringers becausewe're going to run out of what
we've already recorded.
I was like I really don't wantto watch any more of season six.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I was the same way.
If we weren't so close, I wouldhave told you like it was fun,
let's just call it but so close,so close.
This one and then two more ofour episodes, yeah, and then
we'll round out the season, theseries, we'll say that episode
606, about to get a lot dirtier.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
A lot dirtier than that.
A lot dirtier than that ErinDungy's guest starring
performance as Officer SoniaHarris, although she's in
several other episodes as well.
But we'll hold off on that.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Let's start with yeah , let's start with the Murder of
Lucifer Morningstar.
So when I watched it the firsttime and again I've said this
before, but like everybody elsewho was already watching when
season six dropped, I binged itRight and I think I was just
slightly titillated by the Chloelike aggressively fighting with
(02:36):
him and that one.
And then you know she's on topof him with the sword and he's
like I didn't see this coming,which I know is a kind of a pet
peeve, it's a callback, but itis a callback in this show and
so I was just kind of titillatedby that and whatever it just
like flew by In rewatch,especially in the frame of the
way we have talked about theshow in terms of analogies for
(02:58):
mental health stuff, seeing thatas a metaphor and analogy for
substance abuse and addiction,was really really interesting to
me.
And the way that Chloe is kindof overcome by guilt and remorse
when Lucifer says I didn'tthink you would be the one that
(03:19):
would be my killer and she'slike no, I would never hurt you,
but while she's holding theknife to his throat yeah, and
it's not just any knife, it isAzrael's blade which will wink
him out of existence.
So I thought that was a really.
It was more interesting to methis time around in rewatch
because of our framing and theway that we've been talking
about it and also that we tookour time with it.
(03:40):
We really took our time with it, but you wasn't just like give
me, give me, give me, give me,give me, give me.
You know, I actually was likesavoring it a little bit more
and I was able to see some ofthose, those those additional
subtexts which, for me inparticular and I know you share
this with me are not alwaysavailable to me on a first watch
(04:01):
.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting.
I hadn't thought about it aslike a substance abuse thing,
that that and I think you'reabsolutely right, it's that's
spot on.
Like she's doing exactly whatsomeone who is struggling with a
substance abuse would do or anykind of addiction, or any kind
(04:45):
of addiction.
I appreciate it because itmakes it clear that this can
happen to anyone, even like thestrongest person that Dan has
ever met.
He said the strongest womanI've ever met.
But I'm sorry, I'm putting theword person in, putting the word
(05:05):
person in eat it.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
When people say that I hate it when they're like, oh,
she's a remarkable woman, no,she's a remarkable person anyway
so I also think it'ssignificant that it was this
strength thing that, like no onecould be like, oh well, you
shouldn't be doing that anywaythe way that someone might
around substance use yeah andand there's, and there's very
little judgment from Lucifer.
(05:27):
I mean, the judgment comesreally, even though he's the one
that's endangered.
He says it's not your fault,the blade does that to all
humans.
And it's Chloe who says no, Ihad lost control even before I
touched the blade.
This is me, I have to takeresponsibility, and so I think
there's something really lovelyin the modeling of both the
(05:48):
person who is caught in theaddiction, chloe, and also the
loved one who, who is harmed andcould have been harmed much,
much worse by the addiction.
So I think, in that sense, likeI, I appreciated the modeling
of what what that exchange canlook like, which was one of love
(06:12):
.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
And I I have to say so.
I know there's a lot of Roryhate in the fandom, which I I
get annoyed by because it feelsknee jerk rather than
necessarily responding to hercharacter.
But I will say, watching thesetwo episodes, this time I was
like Rory, you're giving, you'remaking it hard because so like
(06:41):
Chloe's trying to apologize toher, like this was my fault that
your father thought that youwere going to try to kill him,
and Rory is like no, no, he'sawful, you're great, and I know
that is.
That could probably be asimilar dynamic to um in a
alcoholic family or a familywhere where a parent is dealing
(07:03):
with, uh, with any kind ofsubstance abuse, although she
doesn't during Rory's childhood.
But I was getting a littlefrustrated by that because it's
like I know that Rory idolizesher mother and I think that
there's something wonderfulabout that in a lot of ways.
But it's frustrating becauseit's like about that in a lot of
(07:27):
ways.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
But it's frustrating because it's like recognize that
she's frail and human as well,please.
Yeah, I see that I also.
I believed it because we don'tknow it yet from these two
episodes, but we find out in afuture episode that rory's sent
back because she's at hermother's deathbed.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
And so.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I think that her viewing Chloe, this younger
version of Chloe that sheremembers from being a small
child, it makes sense to me thatshe would idolize her, that she
would reject.
This is my fault, knowing thatshe's got mom's whole history of
being a single parent and momis dying in her time.
(08:08):
So I hear what you're saying interms of like, logically, and
maybe even as like modeling thatthe show might model for us to
remember that even our parentshave feet of clay, and also in
terms of characterization.
It made sense to me that wedon't see it yet, but especially
, I know that's, that's where,that's that's a very good point.
(08:31):
That's a very good point, yeah Imean, like now he's been gone
11 years, we can talk about theways in which dad screwed up and
like we wish he had done better, but like in the first few
weeks or when we knew he wasdying, it was a lot harder.
Yeah, I mean, I didn't blamemom, but knowing that that's
(08:55):
what's happening in Rory'stimeline, I think it changes
things for me.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's fair.
I think that's fair.
And it's not that I'd forgottenthat, it's just part of it was
I was kind of disappointed inChloe in these two episodes and
not like the lying about theblade and things like that.
(09:26):
That's not exactly why I wasdisappointed in her, although
the like it didn't help.
But you know, recognizing thatthat is like some kind of
addiction like that, that, thatwas like reasonable.
But in the second episode, whenshe was kind of dismissing a
man, a deal and I don't know, I,I just I I feel like her feet
(09:50):
of clay are are on display herewell, let's talk about the
second episode, because I thinkthat was intentional and and and
important actually.
So, oh sure, sure, sure, I sure.
It's one of those where, sinceI'm seeing this 360 view of
Chloe, and like anyway, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
We don't have to talk about the second no.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I do, I do want to talk about it.
I mean, I have a lot more tosay about the second episode
than I do the first.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, me too, me too, me too.
But honestly, the first episodeis a little bit forgettable
except for the except for thefight scene between Chloe and
Lucifer.
Yeah, Um the.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
The one thing from that episode that I held on to
is like please don't do your sexmath in front of me.
Yeah, that I appreciate it.
It was worth the price ofadmission, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So, yeah, cute, yeah.
So let's talk about this oneepisode six, which I understand
that db woodside fought for abit, which you know.
So it it.
It aired in these aired in 2021.
So this is after george floyd'smurder.
So I think that everyone in thecast, in particular DB Woodside
(11:06):
, really grappling with the factthat they've been making
propaganda for five years whenGeorge Floyd was murdered, and
so this episode, the story arc,was a bit of a penance, I think.
Well, no, actually, I know DBWoodside had to fight for the
episode about Caleb, which wasseveral seasons ago, that was
(11:28):
season four.
Yes, I don't know if he had tofight for this one.
I think that all of the castwere grappling with it.
I know Tom Ellis, in hisprivate like in his social media
presence, had done some workaround, using his platform to to
promote anti-racist work, andso I think that a lot of folks
(11:51):
who were involved in makingmaking this show grappling with
with the fact that they've beenmaking propaganda and this story
, this story arc, is a bit ofpenance.
So I honestly, like I textedyou while I was watching it
yesterday.
It was a little bit hard for mebecause this episode is all on
the one side with Rory andLucifer.
There's all this secondhandembarrassment because he's
(12:11):
trying so hard and it's just, oh, it's so cringy, painful, yeah,
and then they cut over to thisracist policing.
So it's like back and forthbetween this like secondhand
embarrassment, which I have youand I both don't care for, yeah,
and then this racist policingstuff which is just so
infuriating and it was, it'shard, it's hard to watch as
(12:34):
important as this episode is,because I completely agree with
you.
I'm glad we have season six justfor this episode, and also it
is hard to watch.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I imagine for other members of the fandom the
Rory and Lucifer subplot iscomic relief.
Yeah, Like, if they're not, ifyou don't feel the secondhand
embarrassment like Tracy and Ido, you probably were like, oh,
thank goodness for the Santa andChristmas gifts thing.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, which I just couldn't.
It was yeah, I was, I was yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It was awful, I was playing Solitaire on my phone so
I had to launch that directly.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
I had a second screen as well.
It was really hard for me, yeah, yeah.
So but the reason I wanted tobring us here because I think
Chloe's Feet of Clay, chloe, isthe proxy for the showrunners
here and for so many whiteAmericans who think they
understand how the world works,because they've never.
It's like they've never.
(13:27):
Oh yeah, in this episode,chloe's feet of clay, her
disappointing behavior, wasnecessary.
Oh sure, yeah, for the work,the penance that the show was
(13:52):
doing.
We had to see and we had to seeas the viewers, we had to see
that she was wrong in order,because she's our proxy here,
those of us who are whiteAmericans watching.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Something that I felt like the show did very well was
when Reuben calls Amenadiel inand Amenadiel thinks he's going
to get yelled at and Reuben'slike I remember you, you met me
at a really tough, bad time.
That's not the man I am, andChloe had said something about
like, oh, he had to have gone tosensitivity training and blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, andAmenadiel kind of relaxes a
little bit like, oh, okay, likethe LAPD is good, you know that
(14:36):
guy, he screwed up and you knowwe all screw up, but then
immediately pulls the rug outfrom under him and clearly this,
uh, mikhail is the murderer,and so I appreciated that,
because that is so clearly whathappens where something like
sensitivity training teaches youhow to be a better racist.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It certainly can yeah .
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Um and that's I mean.
That's not always the case, buta lot of times people learn the
language of progressive justicemovements without actually
doing any of the interior work.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, I want to.
I actually want to nuance whatyou said.
It teaches one to hide theirracism more effectively.
Yes, Right.
That's.
That's actually the what.
What is happening?
And that happens when youapproach it as if it's a
transaction and not atransformation.
You know so.
I do some training anti-racisttraining in my day job and I
know if a client comes to me andthey say just tell me what
(15:35):
words I'm not allowed to say,that person is not, they're not
going to get it, they're notready, they're not there because
they're treating it as if it'sa transaction and that's not
what's happening here.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So Well, and I had.
I remembered the plot from whenI saw this the first time, but
I didn't.
I didn't remember the nuancesor anything like that, so I
didn't recall that.
It was like a like oh okay,he's, he's, he's learned, he's
better.
And then the rug pulled out.
But I immediately, this timearound and I don't remember if I
(16:09):
did the first time around Iclocked.
When he says that's not the manI am, because I know just from
personal experience, I know frombeing involved in certain types
of diversity training, whenpeople say that's not who I am
involved in certain types ofdiversity training, when people
say that's not who I am, theyare incapable of recognizing
(16:33):
like that it might be.
And so like, if you saysomething like that's not who I
want to be and I'm working notto be someone who allows that to
happen in myself or near me,and it's the I.
I so appreciate that writingbecause it makes it clear.
It's a very clear distillationof like that white fragility,
like it's also a call that it'sa.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
It's a call out to the way that so many people were
talking after george floyd'smurder saying this is not who we
are as a country.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah it, it is.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, it's what I mean.
Like you are what you do, right, like if it walks like a duck
and it talks like a duck, whichdoesn't mean it's who we have to
be.
Yes, so I think that you knowthat that caught, he's caught in
that good, bad binary.
Like you know, racists are badand I'm not bad.
Therefore, I can't be racist.
Yes, not how it works.
Yes, not how it works.
So, yeah, I think I actually Ithink that was very good writing
(17:28):
.
I agree, in fact, I think thatwhole storyline.
I didn't love the cringy stuffwith Rory and Lucifer and I
didn't love the racist policing,because it is so painful,
because I wish that's not who wewere, but we are, and I think
it did a really good job ofbringing an audience who didn't
come here for that Right, theycame here for a handsome devil,
(17:51):
and I think it does a reallygood job of bringing them along.
And that's exactly why Chloeneeded to be like, no, that's
not what's happening, of coursewe're good, so that she could
have that realization along withus.
I think the writing was reallygood on that story arc.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yes, the thing that I think is part of the reason why
this is necessary is the factthat when I first started
watching the show in 2018, thatthe main character, other than
the title character, is supposedto be above reproach really
(18:34):
good person who works for theLAPD and I was like uh-huh, yep,
I'm watching.
When my earliest understandingof the differences in what it
means to be a black personversus a white person in America
was because of Rodney Kingbeing beaten on camera by the
LAPD in the early 90s.
I believe that was so like I aslike I don't know, I was 13, 14
(18:59):
years old, I was a kid.
I was a kid and it was clearthat the LAPD, specifically,
were committing brutality for noreason and those lessons don't
stick for white folks.
Like so that you know 22 yearslater in you know 20,.
(19:22):
I didn't watch it until 2018 orso, but however many years later
, I can be like uh-huh, yep, yep, yep.
Okay, they made a like a one,one word comment about your
corrupt little organization.
But yeah, lapd, they're goodguys and that's that's something
that we need to grapple with,and that was something in
(19:43):
watching it this time.
I was just like really, really,could Chloe be like?
Oh yeah, I mean, I know there'ssome bad stuff that happens
sometimes, but generally itworks out.
I'm like really which is notfair of me, because that's who I
was in 2018 when I was watchingit.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, all of those things and one of the things
that I think that washeavy-handed but needed to be,
and I'm glad that it was is thatfinal scene, or not quite final
scene, but the scene in thegraveyard with michaela, when,
like, we're relaxing because thebad guy put his gun down and
then the cops show up and werealize that michaela's life is
(20:22):
in danger again and Amanda Dealhas to actually stand between
his colleagues and this girl.
And it was heavy handed and I'mglad that it was.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
So that reminded me of.
There were two moments thatprior to George Floyd's murder
that really helped me understandthe fact that my privilege
shields me no matter whathappens, and one of them was the
(21:00):
final scene in the movie GetOut, where Chris played by
Daniel Kuleya, I think, is howyou pronounce his last name he's
getting away, he's fightingwith Rose, his girlfriend, who
is evil, and he's got the upperhand.
And then they hear sirens andsee lights and you see her kind
(21:24):
of like relax into a smile, likeoh, there's no way that you can
survive this.
And then it turns out that it'shis friend and and he gets away
.
And that's actually apparentlybecause Jordan Peele decided it
was too bleak for it to end with.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
That wasn't the original ending, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
And watching that moment and realizing that I have
that same ability that Rosedoes and I truly believe I would
never use it.
But I can't know.
I cannot know that I wouldnever use that.
Oh, I'm just a sweet littlewhite lady.
(22:06):
I can't know that.
And so that's part of why I feltlike that heavy handed moment
in the episode is so importantbecause we need to be, through
fiction, in the headspace of theperson who is the person, who
is the person, who is the personwho is the person who is the
person who is the person who isthe person who is the person who
is the person who is the person, who is the person, who is the
person, who is the person, whois the person who, in the
(22:27):
headspace of the person, whoknows that they have something
to fear from the cops.
And I got there because ofJordan Peele, because I'm
watching Chris do everything hecan to try to survive.
He is the hero, he is theprotagonist, and it is clear he
(22:48):
is there alone, and so I amentirely identifying with him.
And the same thing with thisyoung woman who I was thinking
about, like the casting, there'ssomething about her that is and
you know, some of it is she's agood actress.
She seems scared, she seemsvulnerable.
But there's something about herthat also like know some of it
is she's.
She's a good actress, she'sshe's.
She seems scared, she seemsvulnerable.
But there's something about herthat also like I don't know
(23:09):
about you, but I felt veryprotective of her and you know
some of that's writing, some ofthat's acting choices, some of
that's direct directorialchoices.
Yeah, I think the director.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
The directorial choices were also very good in
that, like they give us morethan once the, the juxtaposition
of the truly bad guy who's thewhite dude, like just standing
there completely comfortable andthen michaela cowering with her
hands over her head, uh, and wesee that twice.
And yes, and the bad cop sayingget her, take her down.
(23:43):
About this young woman who'scowering.
Yeah, and that visual metaphor,I think again very heavy handed
and also what we needed in 2021.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Mm, hmm, well, and honestly still need.
Yeah, we still need today.
Yeah, we still need today.
I I believe it was in 2020, butI posted something on social
media about the fact thatthere's so many of the things
that so much of the media weconsume casts the police as the
good guys and how I really needto to like grapple with that,
(24:20):
and an acquaintance of mine, whoI know tends to be relatively
conservative, is like well, it'sbecause they are the good guys.
I'm like well for us, for us,they're the good guys and are
they, are they even for us?
And like why do we believe thatthey're the good guys?
Why?
Where does that come from?
Why does that?
Why is that something thatwe're so quick to agree to in?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
fiction.
I mean, we know why it'sbecause of fiction.
It's because we all grew upwatching.
You know all of the.
I mean remember, when we firststarted recording for this, for
our show, I remember thinkinglike, well, what else would it
be besides a procedural?
It's like our default chassison which we build all episodic
television yes or not all but alot.
We build all episodictelevision, yes or not, all but
(25:07):
a lot, a lot of episodictelevision.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
A lot of episodic television, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I can remember the theme song for Hill Street Blues
that like mom would watch afterwe went to bed when we were
kids.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You know, yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And there was Barney Miller and I mean like there
have been so many and they werecomedies and they were dramas
and law and order.
The cops are the good guys.
That is the way that we havebeen taught, based on so much
pop culture.
It's not a single show in everygenre, you know like there's
(25:47):
the absurd with brooklyn 99, andthen there's the very serious
with law and order, svu.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
you know it's well, and then there's like there's
noir films and gritty and like Imean there's, there's so much,
and even even our superherofilms.
So I've been thinking, thinkingabout Batman quite a bit
recently because my youngestreally likes Batman and even,
like he loves Spider-Man as welland so like Spider-Man Into the
Spider-Verse.
(26:14):
As much as I adore that movieand it is fantastic, miles' dad
is a cop.
Miles' dad is a cop and like heobjects to Spider-man because
he's a vigilante which fair butat the same time it's like his
dad doesn't really understandwhat's going on in the world.
(26:37):
And then you know, like batman'skind of a fascist, like a
billionaire who stops pettycriminals yeah yeah, with the
help of commissioner gordon,like what, the, what and even
(26:59):
even paw patrol, like the, the.
My kids have outgrown it atthis point, but they really were
into paw patrol and why not?
They're adorable puppies and Ido believe yeah, they're cops.
I do believe in about 30 yearswe're gonna get a gritty reboot
of the dogs yeah, the gen zedsuh grow up that are making films
(27:22):
.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Aye, aye, aye, yeah.
So another thing that I thinkthat the writers did really
really well, as did the actorsand the directors.
So we're given that moment tograpple with, where this young
woman is towering and verynearly dies.
(27:45):
And then we see Amenadiel andand Harris talking about it
afterwards and that like, how doyou do it?
And, um, you know, if we hadn'tbeen there she would have died
and the and the, the beats wereso tight.
If we hadn't been there shewould have.
He hadn't even finished sayingthe line before her was like,
(28:06):
but we were there, we were, andthat's why I do it.
And I thought that was also areally lovely lesson where so
amenity has got Chloe on the oneside, who is sort of saying
like we'll figure this out andget to the bottom of it and
(28:27):
Chloe's naive and Chloe doesn'tunderstand, and also thinking
about root causes is reallyimportant.
And then he's got Harris sayingI do the most help I can and it
, and it breaks my heart thatthese kids are afraid of this
uniform.
If I'm out here, I can make adifference and like holding both
(28:48):
of those, that direct serviceand root cause work.
Both are necessary if we'regoing to get to a future where
kids aren't afraid, don't haveto be afraid, don't have reason
to be afraid of the uniform Ithought that was was really,
really powerful.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I I also.
I appreciated that because Iknow, um, like something that
can be.
I feel strange talking aboutthis because I am not black, but
, uh, seeing people frommarginalized communities go into
policing can feel very odd, andI am coming at it from a very
(29:31):
privileged position.
But, like when Amenadiel thecharacter was like, I think I
want to become a police officerI was like and I had a similar
reaction in the TV show of NewGirl with Winston decided, like
he wasn't sure what he wanted todo with his life.
It was several seasons on.
He realized he was very good atsolving, like puzzles,
mysteries, and so he decided hewanted to become a police
(29:52):
officer.
And that New Girl I can'tremember exactly when it ran,
but it ended like 2016, 2017.
It's been a while ago and Iremember I was watching it
sometime in the last four yearsand I was just like, oh God, no,
don't make, don't make Winstondo that.
And so what I did appreciateabout this episode was that it
(30:17):
made it clear that there is aplace for even actors playing
characters.
You know, black actors playingcharacters who are police
officers, like Maren Dungy, whoI she is a character actor who
I've seen in many, manydifferent shows.
She is Terry Crews' wife.
On Brooklyn Nine-Nine she playsthat character, and she was a
(30:38):
character in Better Off Ted andI've just kind of like every
time I see her I was like, ohhey, it's my friend, like I just
really like her a lot.
And then I follow her on socialmedia and she is very outspoken
and uses the platform that shehas to do to put good in the
world and so like I reallyappreciated, like on kind of a
(31:00):
metal level, like that there isa way that putting on a police
uniform, even as an actor, canalso work towards changing the
brutality of the police systemthat we have in our country.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, yeah, so I'm going to move us along a little
bit.
Sure, because I want to talkabout the scene with chloe and
dan.
I think was that in the firstepisode.
That was in the first episode.
Yes, yeah, so I'm backing us upa little bit.
(31:40):
But that scene where Luciferrealizes that she might still be
able to see him while she holdsthe necklace, um, and, and that
kind of the exchange betweenthem, I found myself, I actually
it made me cry, me too, and Iwas, I was grateful for that
(32:03):
kind of moment of where we justsort of see these two people
whose lives are inextricablyconnected, who were no longer
romantically involved, and theway that Chloe is able to say
she was like, grateful she wasable to be there for him when he
passed, and, and her beingreally vulnerable and and and
(32:26):
talking about being scared and Idon't know.
I really that scene deeplymoved me.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, well, it struck me in that so often, after
someone you love passes away,you think like if only I could
just talk to them one more time.
And she got to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And this is someone who knows her in a way and it's
not better, but a different waythan anyone else in her life.
And that's true of like youknow.
You know me in a different waythan my spouse does, then you
know our parents do.
And that's true of like youknow.
You know me in a different waythan my spouse does, than you
know our parents do, and sobeing able to be the fullness of
(33:13):
the person because that personknows you when they're gone is
just it's heart wrenching.
It's just it's heart-wrenching.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
There's something really again like satisfying and
comforting though, in thatafter the, she says give us a
couple hours, and then hedisappears.
She can't see him because Iguess the sword has been taken
to heaven, but he's still there.
We see him, we know he hears herin that final thing that she
(33:48):
says then when she thanks himthat she needed this and and and
thanks him for coming and forsaying the things that he said,
and there's something reallyreally comforting and satisfying
and hopeful about that.
That even when she didn't likeshe didn't know whether or not
her message was getting acrossshe thought that it was, she
wasn't sure, but we know that itwas to the deceased I found
that also like a deeplycomforting in.
(34:10):
You know, she got that thingthat we all fantasize about with
someone who's passed, which islike just if I could just talk
to them one more time.
And then, even once he was notthere, there's this reassurance
in that moment, like themechanism by which she was able
to see him and hear him was gone, but that didn't mean that her
(34:32):
message, that her, her love wasnot received, and that like as a
sort of metaphor for therelationship we have with those
who've passed is also likedeeply comforting and satisfying
.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, this is not really related to Lucifer, but
you probably.
This happens to you too, whereI dream about dad relatively
frequently.
Yeah, like once or twice a yearat this point.
It used to be a lot morefrequently, used to be a lot
more, and this has happenedbefore with previous people
who've passed away in our lives,and often the dream is that
(35:07):
there, there, there was amistake, not really dead?
Speaker 3 (35:10):
He's not really dead.
Yeah, I've had that dream.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And when I wake up the next morning and I have had
this my whole life where I willdream something and it will be a
few days later when I'm like,wait, that didn't really happen.
And it's because I'm notthinking directly about it, it's
just, you know, some morebackground noise.
And so I really do feel like Idon't believe that there's any
(35:35):
kind of consciousness oranything after death, but it
does feel like I visited withdad.
When I dream about him, andthere is this sense that, like,
I feel like, while he's still indreams, to the point where,
like, it'll be a day or twowhere I'm like, no, like I know
that that wasn't real, that,that, that kind of that keeps
(35:58):
the, the, the, the spirit of whodad was alive, in a way.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
That's, you know, like it's just kind of lovely,
it's like Coco right, they, thepeople, don't truly pass on
until we, until they'reforgotten.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yes, yeah, that is really helpful.
And the the one thing that nowI know this has to do more with
child actor, but the fact thatwe don't see Trixie in these two
episodes and the fact that youknow, like she's at science camp
(36:34):
for the summer and they theytalk a little bit at like how is
she?
She's doing as well as shecould be.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Well, we did see her.
We, we see Dan watching.
Well, we comfort her as she, asshe sobs and says I miss my
daddy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
But and some of this is that I have experienced the
loss of a father.
I have not experienced the lossof like a co-parent, but that
that is something that, yeah,and I know we get the moment
between Dan and Trixie later,yeah, further along.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
But it and we needed to save that.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
The storytellers needed to save that moment.
They needed Trixie to not bethere.
Yeah, because that was theirpunchline, that was their how he
, that's his get out of hellcard, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And it's like I guess what just struck me is like
she's at science camp for thesummer was just like oh, that
does not seem like the rightplace for a kid who's gone
through trauma well, there'sthat, there's that.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
But I mean, we've said we said before that season
six writing feels a little bitrushed.
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah.
So I feel like we're we've hitthe the high notes of what I
wanted to make sure that wetalked about.
Do you want to talk about atall ella starting to think that
something is wrong, or should wesave that for the future
(38:05):
episodes, when it gets?
Speaker 2 (38:06):
um, I'd like to save that for future episodes.
I do want to talk a little bitabout Lucifer and Rory bonding
over a bridge over troubledwaters.
Yeah, so like, as you as wementioned the the all the
different ways he was trying toto connect with her in that
second episode, we're justcringy and like brianna
(38:30):
hildebrand's like wtf face waspretty amazing I think she was
cast really really well, oh yeah, yeah, like she looks like she
could be their child, like interms of just like her phenotype
, her facial features, etc.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Which I think is really I I don't know.
I like, I believe it.
I believe that they're relatedin that way.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
And then the like, her acting choices, like when
she's messing with maze and Eveand a mena deal like it.
It just like it.
It works, yeah, and then.
But also her, her, her angerand sadness and and upset also
really works, yeah, and then.
But also her, her, her angerand sadness and and upset also
really works.
(39:17):
So it makes sense that thatLucifer would throw himself into
like okay, I gotta be there forher now and like, do the the
over the top Lucifer thing thathe does?
So like, I totally get that.
And so I appreciated thatthat's like it was in character
that he would go over the top.
(39:38):
And then it also fits that itwas music that brought them
together, because that is who heis.
We saw that with father frank.
That's how he became friendswith Father Frank.
And also it makes sense that hewouldn't think of it, you know,
and that moment was just lovely.
It was a lovely moment and,yeah, I really appreciated that.
(40:18):
There is one other thing thatI'd forgotten that I wanted to
mention.
Lucifer has made it clear fromthe very beginning that he wants
to be a good father.
I really get tired of the TV,the pop culture phenomenon,
(40:40):
where someone who has nointerest in having kids, becomes
a parent and is, like,immediately, a good one.
And there's no question of likeand like.
It's not this particular show,it's not this particular,
because character-wise it makessense you actually have made
this point before.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
It's been a very long time since we recorded it, but
you made this point, yeah, in aour two episodes ago of of light
bringers, that this is a thingthat that that pop culture does,
especially to female characters.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yes, yeah, and that's .
Speaker 3 (41:18):
It's just infuriating that, uh, that we, we get this
yeah, I, I agree, and also tothe show's credit, like, I think
, the moment between lucifer andmaize, when she's like are you
asking for my advice?
Like that conversation, ormaybe it was with dan, I don't
remember at some point somebodysays like, just don't, that's
(41:40):
why I don't want kids, and he'slike, yeah, me too.
But here I am, yeah, and so Ifeel like they're.
They did much more so than like, say, big Bang Theory, where
they made it Penny did not wantkids, ever, ever, ever.
And then like she's pregnant,yay, yeah, and there was no
(42:00):
grappling.
Like I feel like they at leastacknowledge that when he says
right, but here I am and hereshe is, and so I feel like that
actually doesn't make it okay,cause this is a pattern, and
also I feel like it handled itmore sensitively than than other
(42:25):
examples of the pattern haveand do.
When you talked about it before.
You talked about the fact thatyou've always known that you
wanted to be a parent, and alsohow infuriating it is that
people just say, oh well, you'llchange your mind.
Two characters we make themchange their minds so that we
(42:55):
which is it's a, it's areinforcing pattern where we say
to young women like, oh, you'llchange her.
And then pop culture shows uswomen like penny changing their
minds without going through anysteps of like.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I knew this wasn't what I wanted, but I'm going to
make the most of the situationthat we're in.
You know and and you know thisisn't what I wanted, but since
it's happening, I want to makesure that I do the best I can.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Even like we have so few examples in pop culture of
just like.
I just don't want that for me,oh my goodness, I know.
I just don't want that for me.
I like kids.
Kids are great, but not for me.
I won't be a good parent, Idon't want it, and that's a
legitimate choice.
We are not shown that as alegitimate choice in pop culture
.
Yeah yeah, there's alwayssomething wrong with the
childless, especially woman Ifshe's childless by choice.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
There's something wrong with her emotionally, I
have to say.
I feel like Sex and the City isone of the only shows that has
done this.
There's an episode where theytalk about abortion and I think
it's when Miranda realizes thatshe's pregnant with her son and
Samantha talks about she's hadtwo abortions and she has no
regrets.
Carrie has had an abortion andshe's dating Aiden.
(44:08):
At the time, I never watchedthe show.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
You're telling me this like I know the characters.
Just FYI, I'm not a Sex and theCity girl.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Like I know the four main women, but when you talk
about their love interests, likeno idea.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay, so she's dating John Corbett.
So you know who that is.
Chris in the Morning.
Chris in the Morning yeah, Inever liked him because of his
response to her Like when she'sshe's like talking about what's,
what's going on with Mirandaand he, he's like, well, you
would never have an abortionRight, and she feels like she
has to lie to him.
And then later on she tells himthe truth and I'm just like
(44:43):
fuck that shit, because shewould have been a bad mother, Um
, she would not have been ableto like that was not right for
her and it's her body.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
And that like the fact that the show does not
shame Samantha for, like, sayingloudly and proudly I have had
two abortions, I have no regrets.
If you want to talk about it,miranda, let's talk about it.
And Miranda ultimately decidesto have the baby, not because
she has any shame about the ideaof terminating the pregnancy,
but because she realizes maybethis is my baby, like, maybe
(45:19):
this is the time, this is theplace I thought I might want
kids and maybe I should justlike that this is it, this is
the right time.
And that's amazing, like itgrapples with it.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Yeah, yeah, I, it grapples with it.
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to bringus back.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yes, because Lucifer is the show we're talking about
now.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, yeah.
So in fact we've been talkinglong enough that I think I'm
going to, unless there's anotherlike key point that you want to
make sure that you make.
I'm going to ask if you noticedany fluff that you wanted to
share.
Noticed any?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
fluff that you wanted to share.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
So the woman that Rory flirts with in the other
car, the woman that looks likeSteven Tyler.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, I did not get what.
Now I know I understand thatthey wanted her to be older than
Rory for that to be a reasonwhy Lucifer like disapproved and
tried to scare her off.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
But I didn't, yeah, yeah, I don't know, especially
because later lucifer's sort ofoffering her like sex and drugs
and rock and roll, like why didhe care?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
yeah yeah yeah, so, and yeah, that was, that was a
weird moment I also have to saylike Lucifer's beard is too much
Like it's.
It's the five o'clock shadowhe's always had, but it's like
more.
It's like a seven o'clockshadow and it's like dude.
(46:45):
Why, why, why?
Speaker 3 (46:47):
why I didn't.
I did not notice that.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
So those are the only couple of only couple things.
Oh, I did look it up because Iwas like the singing at the end.
I was like, is that Rory?
Is that Brianna Hildebrand?
And I looked it up and she's asinger.
So you know, obviously it wasnot being recorded in the moment
, but that is her voice the.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Actually that was a little, a little bit of a speed
bump for me.
It was clear to me that was hervoice, but it's also clear that
she was lip-syncing.
To a studio recorded like that,the sound quality was just off.
Yeah, sort of an acousticsitting in the penthouse, yeah
it just I don't.
There was something about itthat just felt off off in that
(47:27):
in the actual moment, like themusic was lovely, the moment was
lovely, but there was somethingthat didn't match between the
two so, yeah, yeah, that thatdefinitely.
I noticed that as well.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to think if there's any
other fluff that I want to sharewhat uh well about ella and uh
like when she's like trying tohint at a mena deal.
Yeah, and like I know he'sfocused, but I feel like he
would have like picked up thehints well, especially when
she's looking for wings or ahalo, yeah like the wings.
(48:05):
I can kind of understand becauseit's just because it could just
be patting his back, you know,in a kind of awkward way.
But then when she then was likelooking for the halo, it's just
like, oh come on, you're smartif he doesn't have.
Speaker 3 (48:16):
Hey, like if halos aren't really a thing then maybe
I, I don't know.
Yeah it, it was definitely.
It seemed like he would havecaught on to something,
especially then when he likeslips and says so he does, he
goes to his celestial like Iwould know if something were
happening I would feel it yeah,so he eventually yeah, yeah,
(48:38):
yeah, although it is significantthat the she led with her sock
yeah, which was, I mean theywrote it that way to make it
easier for him to dismiss it andand also, like she's smart.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
She wouldn't leave with her sock.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I don't think she would leave with the sock.
Yeah, she would leave with thefrog that fell out of the sky
onto her Jeep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Rushed, rushed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
All right.
Well, this has been fun, sortof just partay, and like he's
doing the dancing and I'm justlike so I kind of love
embarrassing my children, like II try not to do it in public,
like just when we're in thehouse.
But like I was not, I was, Iwas rory in that moment oh, it
was not, it was, it was hard towatch.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
I found it really hard to watch.
I found that his song numberhard to watch.
Uh, yeah, yeah, it was notenjoyable for me, not fun.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Yeah, yeah, all right , well, until next time, m until
next time our theme song isferal angel waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
(50:21):
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeetcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
(50:45):
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