Lucifer 609 + 610 “Goodbye, Lucifer” & “Partners ‘Til the End”

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In the final episode of Lightbringers, the Guy girls still manage some significant overthinking. The storytelling leads them to some questions about how people who don’t feel remorse might be tortured in the Lucifer universe (in other words, what was the magic behind Lucifer’s whispered words to Lemec?). Additionally, the confines of telling a story with actors on a small screen lead to musings about the role our age plays in our identity (and a detour into Star Trek the Next Generation and the Matrix). 

We enjoy the acting of Rob Benedict as he portrays Vincent Le Mec and then Dan Espinoza inhabiting Vincent Le Mec’s body. We also have some deep appreciation for the visual storytelling used to portray the silver city and the tight writing that gave us the series of events leading to the appearance of Mr. Meowgi the lion and Le Mec’s escape from prison. 

At the same time, we both were a bit less than satisfied with the writing that would characterize (or at least not significantly distinguish) righteous anger as monstrous, allowed saviorism to flavor the attempt at anti-racism in Chloe’s role as Lieutenant, and left us with the impression Trixie wasn’t present for her.

We wrap up the journey with a few thoughts about recommendations for binge-worthy shows that might scratch the Lucifer itch.

Mentioned in this episode:
Our Lucifer episode of Deep Thoughts about Stupid Sh*t
Good Omens streams on Amazon
Dead Boy Detectives is on Netflix
The Sandman is on Netflix
Dead End: Paranormal Park is on Netflix
Owl House is on Disney+
Miranda is on Britbox or Amazon
The Good Place is on Netflix

Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker.
She does use a hyphen.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we're overthinking it.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Yeah, it's what we do .
We're overthinkers.
Yep, it's here.
It's the.
The last episode of lightbringers, 609 and 610.
Goodbye, lucifer and partners.
Till the end, that's right.
I mean, at this stage in thestorytelling, like we don't have
procedural anymore, there's nomore case of the week, it's just

(01:00):
all about the.
It's the soap opera, the drama,the drama of the daughter from
the future.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, and there's not a whole lot of humor in these
either.
I mean, there is there's alittle bit, but it's.
It's not like previous episodesand seasons.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Nope, nope.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
So where should we start?
Hmm, so where should we start?
I would like to talk about whatI have seen the fandom, I think
, misinterpret about this finale.
So when I go on Reddit or anyother places where Lucy fans
congregate, they say that theyhate the ending because it

(01:42):
undercuts everything they'resaying about free will, Because
Lucifer does not see hisdaughter grow up because she
asked him not to.
And I feel like that is reallymisinterpreting what's happening

(02:03):
here in a way that bothers me,because I understand being
dissatisfied with the endingbecause it's not a super mega
happy ending but at the sametime, like that does not
undercut Lucifer's free will.
He makes the choice to give hisword and he makes the choice to
keep his word every single dayfor the next I don't know 40

(02:26):
years, how old we don't know howold Rory is.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Somewhere between 40 and 50 years, I expect yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah.
So that to me is is more of a,an indication of the the
importance of choice and the umthe responsibility of free will,
because it's not just you makea decision and then you go.

(02:51):
It's like you have to keepremaking that decision over and
over and over again.
There had to have been timeswhen he was tempted to go up,
and I've seen some fan theoriesthat say and I kind of like to
think that that every once in awhile he would go up and just
take a look, you know wouldn'tinteract, but just take a look,
um or even like I mean one canimagine that he could interact

(03:13):
with chloe as long as rorydidn't see him.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yes to that point like why did he need to leave
right that second?
Like he could have stayedthrough the pregnancy.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, yeah, um, I wonder if it's it's like the end
of season four, where it's likeI have to leave now or I'm
never going to.
Yeah, so and then.
And to that point he might nothave been able to once he held
the baby yeah, so when hisdaughter, who he has connected
with, is fresh in his mind, hecan fulfill her request.

(03:45):
But after it's been severalmonths, yeah, nine, nine, ten
months yeah, yeah, yeah yeahthat that jibes, yeah, and so I.
I just like, I think that it's.
We have a time loop story andI'm currently working on a story

(04:08):
involving time travel, so like,I've spent time thinking about
time loops and things like thatand it's, it's a really
interesting thought exercise fora writer to think about time
loops.
It's really interesting tothink about.
You know how, how they come tobe.
But I feel like the story atthe end rejects the idea that

(04:32):
the time loop means things arefaded, even though it says like
it has to happen, so that youknow to do this.
But it's not, it's not fate,it's not because he was taken
out of her life, it's because hechose not to be in her life.
So like, yes, there is anelement of like this has already
happened and has to happen, buthe chooses every day.

(04:56):
Well, and so does she.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
I mean the fact that rory chose it, I think, also
kind of speaks to that it's notfate that he chooses it, because
she asks him to promise thatthat he will, because she sees
the importance of what happenedbetween them and what his, the
potential that he has forchanging the cosmology.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, so many souls, yeah, and that, to me, is like
she is in some ways, making aselfish choice, because she's
like I don't want to change athing, because, like, I got to
where I am now and I like whereI am now, and she's asking her
mother and father to give upsomething that they both badly

(05:43):
want and they haven't given upyet.
Like she's never known it, butyes.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Um, but at the same time like it's an unselfish
choice because she knows theangst she went through for
however many years, the angerand the unhappiness, but that is
but it's for the greater good,literally, because Lucifer is in
a unique position to helppeople overcome the things that

(06:10):
help them back in life.
So I find that, like I was notunsatisfied with the ending.
Now, part of that is because Iam very practical when it comes
to stories about non-humancharacters.
So if there's someone who'simmortal, who is paired with
someone who is not I just don'tknow how it's you can't have a

(06:35):
happy ever after with them.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah, actually, the one that they got, where she
shows up dead and chooses to bewith him, is the closest thing
to happily ever after that theycould have if they had gotten
married, then he would continueto look, you know 45 yeah, and
she would grow old and like andthat it they, they actually did

(06:57):
a really nice job of this.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
um, I don't remember how I got to talking about it,
but I I was telling my, my sonsabout the movie Highlander, um
and the.
There's the Highlander who'simmortal and like there can be
only one.
The only way they can kill eachother is cut, cut their heads
off.
Um, but he marries a woman andhe stays the same and she just
grows older and older and olderand then he, he has to mourn her

(07:21):
after she dies and like it'stragic, you know, you get
happily for now and thatactually that's the other thing
I really appreciated with Rory.
What she said was like,considering the length of our
lives, it's a blip.

(07:42):
We have eternity.
This is a blip.
She's right now.
It's a really tough blip tomiss but, they have forever,
basically so.
So I feel like the the writerswere trying to give us the
happiest possible.
Ending and thinking through theconsequences yeah, agreed, and

(08:04):
the, I think, the fandom.
Just they wanted super megahappy ending yeah and and all
the trappings.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Like I know a lot of the fans are like annoyed there
was no wedding, but like awedding kind of doesn't make
sense.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
And we got the wedding between Maze and Eve.
You know like, yeah, I agree, Iagree.
The other thing that I on thiswatch through that I found
really interesting is thatLucifer's and Rory's actions are

(08:47):
what directly caused this,because since Lucifer did not
take on the mantle of God, hissiblings are answering prayers,
including Mr Meowgi Meowgi,that's right the lion, which is
what led to Lamech being able toescape.

(09:07):
And because Rory brought Dan upfrom hell, he was able to
inhabit Lamech's body so thatLamech would know about Rory.
Rory and Lucifer'sdisappearance at that
intersection and all of that.
So like there is like that timeloop kind of aspect of it, but

(09:34):
it's not time loop exactly, it'sjust it's like these are the
reasonable consequences of theiractions.
And I will say I felt like Ihad completely forgotten about
the lion, like no memory of thatwhatsoever so I'm watching this
this time and I'm like what ishappening his cat is mr meowgie

(09:57):
the lion.
Yeah and it was one of the broyangels was answering that prayer
and I actually I really likedthat because it was, it was
tight writing, like theconsequences, like falling one
after the other on each other,totally made sense, like all of
that.
And unlike you know recentepisode, we were talking about

(10:20):
Linda writing the book Like thatdid not fit, that did not make
sense.
Talking about Linda writing thebook like that did not fit,
that did not make sense.
That was like like it was asquare peg in a round hole
because they wanted to do a clipshow and they wanted to make
certain jokes.
But this was like oh yeah, thisis like really good plotting,
yeah, and reasonably funny tooin some ways.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, speaking of reasonably funny too, in some
ways, yeah yeah, speaking ofreasonably funny, when Dan
inhabits Lamech's body.
That actor did a great job.
Oh gosh, yeah, like I reallybelieved that he was a different
person.
Yeah, yeah, he did a really,really nice job.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I don't know Like he managed to recreate Kevin
Alejandro's like body languageand mannerisms, yeah, so well
done that actor he also.
He really sold the anguish thathe was in, yeah, and it made me

(11:20):
feel like I could see him beingsomeone worthy of time in
Lucifer's therapy, like Reese isdefinitely worthy of time in
Lucifer's therapy.
The third person there don'tknow who that one is, we didn't
know and that's fine, unless,was she?

Speaker 3 (11:38):
We didn't, as I was watching, I didn't, but is she
one of the members of Dos Exes?
Oh, do you remember?

Speaker 2 (11:48):
the yeah, I don't.
I didn't recognize her.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Me neither Not.
While I was watching, I justwas trying to think of a female.
Who it could have been yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
But the because I, while I was watching this and
seeing how awful Lamech wasbeing before he revealed what
torture he was experiencing,because he was experiencing
guilt for the first time in hislife I found myself thinking
like I'd almost rather seeMalcolm on that couch at the end
.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
We've talked about that In our Lightbringers
conversation.
When we watched the malcolmepisodes, we noted that he isn't
on the couch because he doesn'tseem to have any remorse
whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I I was thinking that in part just
because I really liked thatactor, like yeah, did he choose
scenery like a mofo?
Like yeah, he's like, but butit was also just like you know
that we might have been able tosee another side of him, and

(12:50):
because I had forgotten how itwent down with Lamech and seeing
that I remember him saying Iwant to see the light when he
died, but I didn't remember anyof the conversation from before
that, and so it's it was.
It was impressive that itbrought me around again, like

(13:12):
cause I, I think I was fine withit the first time I watched it
and then, this time around, Iwas just like I don't know, this
guy's really piece of crap.
And then it brought me aroundagain and I was like, all right,
yeah, I, I mean like, and thisis going to be because time
works differently and it's 40 or50 years later, so he is still
struggling with it but it's 40,40 or 50 years here, so

(13:33):
thousands of years down therethousands of years later.
So and so he's.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
He's still struggling with it, but he's trying one
wonders, though, like the factthat we never learn what it is
that lucifer said, and so I amleft.
What he said in lamexia, or thewhisper, I am left with the
thought that it was.
It was somehow like magical I'mputting quotes around that word
like something kind ofsupernatural.

(14:00):
It wasn't just the words thathe said, but there was some sort
of you know, supernatural magicabout the words that he said
that made him feel guilt for thefirst time, so like flip the
switch in the sociopath's brainthat gave him the empathy that
he didn't have, which, if that'sa possibility, it also changes,

(14:22):
like our head canon about thelocked doors right, like if, if
there is a mechanism by which,through a word, whispered, yeah,
yeah lucifer is able to unlockthe guilt and the empathy and
then work on it well then, nowin the current time, like in the

(14:45):
post season six timeline, theycan work on it, and prior to
that they could be tortured withit, right like because part of
our headcanon about hell is likeand the born of the reddit
conversations about like, whatabout people like pete or like
you know, sociopaths andpsychopath and psychopaths who
and I don't know the difference,sorry folks, but who who are

(15:08):
incapable of feeling empathy andguilt, like what keeps them in
hell?
That was that's sort of theRedditor question and your
answer has always been whichworks for me, has worked for me,
that we do see some doors thatare locked and the ones that are
locked are those.
But this is this story arc withlamech is making me question

(15:33):
whether or not, in fact, the,the locks, are necessary even
for those folks, and maybe thelocks, locked doors, are like
for the goddess and othercelestials who might be being
tortured.
This is a overthinking moment.
You know because because of thestoryline, because of the

(15:53):
effects on Lamech, based onsomething whispered in his ear
by Lucifer, which, I'm sorry, Idon't think there's an English
phrase that would do thatwithout some sort of
otherworldly power behind it.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, the theory that I've seen is that what was said
was he was my friend, which Idon't.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
I still think it needed a little oomph.
I mean, yeah, I just don'tthink that even the devil saying
he was my friend would besufficient to engender the kind
of anguish that is described bythe character.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
I agree, but it's just, it's odd to add that kind
of magic in the sixth season,although they added time travel
in the sixth season, althoughthey added time travel, and I
mean, I feel like every seasongets a new piece of magic.
You know true, like, uh,lilith's ring was a new piece of
magic and, like you know, Imean I feel like the goddess as

(16:56):
like we only heard about goduntil like the end of second,
the first season, and then intothe second season.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I'll give you that, but then
they never, never say anythingabout it, so like we're just
left to wonder yeah, which isprobably better because, yeah,
we'd be unsatisfied with anykind of explanation.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, or someone would.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Someone would be unsatisfied even if, even if the
guy girls were satisfied yeah,yeah, I feel for joe and ildy
about these two episodes becauseI know the the fandom is
unsatisfied and I feel like theywere trying to do as much fan
service as possible they gave usa lot of really soft and fluffy

(17:42):
, yeah, embracing and smoochingand honestly like it was less so
this time around.
The first time I watched it like, apparently I like angsty love
stories.
I don't like fluffy ones,because I was sitting there like
squirming with embarrassment asthey're just clutching each
other in the panic room went ona.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
It was like three beats too long for me.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, it also that version of Unchained Melody.
It's just like take it down anotch.
Yeah, I feel it.
It's a heavy moment for thembecause they think he's going to
disappear.
But come on, can somebody fartor something please?
So, which is like it's so funny, because I'm such a romantic,

(18:30):
like I have been a romantic myentire life, and yet if you give
me what I actually want, I'mlike no, no, that's too much.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
It was too easy.
Yeah, make them work for it.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Six years, it was too easy.
Make them work for it Six years, it was too easy.
I apparently really like theangsty pining kind of love story
and I do want to see them gettogether.
But I actually I even rememberas a kid I would read series
that would set up a romancebetween the characters in the
first book and then I would belike, yeah, they're kind of
boring by the time they gettogether, which I don't know

(19:13):
what that says about me, likemoonlighting right, like you
can't let them actually gettogether.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
It ruins the show.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, well, it's just like well, now they're going to
be married and boring and I'mlike, where's the flirting,
where's the?
I'm not sure if they like me.
So, yeah, that fan fan servicedid not work for me, but I
appreciated that they did it.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
Yeah, so we're going a little off script here from
our usual structure, but I'mjust gonna go with it.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
It's our last episode and all of you listening.
Thank you for joining us onthis weird journey.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
So this time around something in the very last
episode that really bothered me,that I totally get why they
made the choice and I probablywould have made the same if I
were a showrunner.
Which hey universe, I wouldlove to be a showrunner.
Oh, you could work with neilgaiman on something that would
be awesome.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
My god, which hey universe.
I would love to be a showrunner.
Oh, you could work with NeilGaiman on something that would
be awesome, my God.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
He says he's going to stop.
He says he's going to retirefrom TV and just go back to
writing, writing books, yeah, Iunderstand, anyway, after Chloe
dies, the manifestation of herthat lives on in the afterlife
is the 40 year old chloe fromnow, which I totally get why the

(20:34):
show would do that.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
of course they did same reason why they changed to
kevin alejandro when he was um,when he was um, when he was in
Lamex body Right.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
So we see him in Trixie talking, yes, yes, but
that one even like like that waslike for ease of understanding
what was happening.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
It was also I felt like for Kevin Alejandro to have
that.
You know like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
No, and it it that that worked for me.
That didn't bother me this timearound.
Watching it kind of bothered methat Chloe would.
When I just think about, likenow I'm 48 and like maybe my 40
year old body was in bettershape or like looked better or

(21:28):
whatever, but like I wouldn'tgive up the kind of experience.
That is where I am now If I youknow, like I don't know, there
was something that just feltincomplete and I don't know what
the word is.
Like I want to say unrealistic.
But come on, trace, none of thisis is realistic you're asking
for realism in the crime solvingdevil exactly, exactly, but you

(21:51):
know what it reminds me of fora beat cop becomes god but it,
but it reminds me of there waslike there was like a star trek,
the next generation episodethat I haven't seen in probably
25 years, maybe longer, where,like Picard, like somehow like

(22:11):
eats a mushroom or something andends up like living this whole
life or like I don't know it wasan alien thing, and he lives
like a whole life, like 50 years, on this planet, and he has
kids and his grandkids and likeI deeply remember him, like
asking a grandkid if they werewearing sunblock, and then, like
back on the Enterprise, theylike save him I'm putting quotes

(22:36):
around save they, save him fromwhatever it is that's got him
in this fantasy world.
And like bring him back to themoment that he was taken.
But meanwhile in his mind he'slived this 40 years and is
expected to just like drop rightback in and I like obviously

(22:58):
this has stayed with me, but Iremember thinking like what?
Like it would be as if I wokeup now and I was 20.
I can't even remember myfriends' names from when I was
20, not all of them.
You know, like what you know andand so it's not even like, like
I'm not sure I would make thatchoice from eight years ago and

(23:20):
she's meant to be making it fromlike 40 years ago and now I
know it's it's just her likevessel.
But you know, by choosing thatvessel like it sort of like
diminishes the beauty of theaged one because if it didn't
have aches and pains, like sheearned those wrinkles I, I don't

(23:45):
know I'm I'm clearlyoverthinking it, but it really
kind of stuck with me andobviously it's a TV show and it
would have been veryunsatisfying to see that older
actress who I've never seenbefore, go to Lucifer.
Like I don't want that,obviously I don't want that.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
And also my intellectual brain is going like
Honestly, I don't want that,and also my intellectual brain
is going like, wait a minutehere I was thinking of it more
as, like in the Matrix, theytalk about what you look like.
Is what you think you look like, yeah, yeah.
And so I was thinking of itlike that, in that it's not that

(24:24):
I look that different, but well, I'm thinking of more in other
people.
Like after our grandmother diedand we were going through old
photographs, my favorites werethe one where she was.
She looked like how I knew her,but younger.
So when she had the short hairthat she you know, that was not

(24:44):
Brown, um, and you know but wasclearly like had more energy and
all of that.
Those are my favorites because,like that was how I thought of
her.
But she looked young andvibrant, but still herself that
I think of her.
So, and, and so I I was thinkingof it more like that, where
it's, it's not that she'srenouncing the age, it's more

(25:07):
just like that's how she stillthinks she looks.
Yeah, and this is something thatI know, people have really been
frustrated by that scenebetween rory and elderly chloe,
that it's just the two of themand I I am sympathetic to those
complaints because we have two,one of whom we've never seen

(25:31):
before and one of whom is new tothe season, finishing out a
story that has beloved actorswho are not there, were talking
about how, like they had triedto like cast someone to play
Charlie and cast someone to playadult Trixie and stuff like
that, and there and it was allthese strangers and I was like

(25:52):
they made the right decision.
But at the same time, there'salso, like you know, we got
these two strangers finishing astory that we have beloved
actors for, so like I, I, I, I,considering the story they told,
told that was the only choicethey had, I think I do wish they
had said something about likewhere's trixie?

(26:15):
if, if they'd said trixie's onher way, yeah, trixie's on her
way from home, mom, yeah yeahsomething, yeah something.
Um, or trixie's in the nextroom, you know like, or I let
her take a nap while I sit withyou, mom, you know.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Something to indicate where Trixie was.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Because that, yeah, yeah.
I feel bad for BriannaHillenbrand, the actress who
played, or Hildebrand, hildasomething, hilda something,
hilda something.
I feel bad for her coming intothis show in the final season
and playing the part that shedid, because she's hated in the

(26:58):
fandom Rory is hated, which isreally not fair, and I feel like
that actress did a phenomenaljob.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
I think she did a good job.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, but it was just going to be hard for us to care
.
It was a heavy lift.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah, yeah, emotionally, yeah, yeah.
So, speaking about emotional,let's talk about all the
goodbyes.
Yeah, it was the first goodbyes, mm-hmm, yeah, lucifer's
goodbyes.
So there was ella with thepencil, which was pretty cute,

(27:33):
yeah, and actually I noted thismay be his fluff, but the hug
afterward, like she like capped,she like traps his arms at
first and then he has to likeextract his arms so he can hug
her back, which was kind ofsweet, but I, I, I appreciate it
, I like that and the way that,like they had to spell out for

(27:55):
us what stem stands for againit's like we know what it means
apparently not everybody does,because I I was having a
conversation with someonerecently and I said that
something was STEM focused andthey didn't know what that meant
, so maybe they made the rightchoice to spell it out for us.
And then Google exists and it'sfree.

(28:19):
The goodbye with maze waspretty remarkable.
That was amazing.
Talk about a redemption arcyeah, right that they
acknowledge.
You know, when he says that hewish he had acknowledged, you
know that he wish he had actedlike it, like she was his best

(28:41):
friend before you know, and thefact that she doesn't work for
him anymore and she's her owndemon.
I don't know.
There was something about thatexchange that was like really
poignant, well written, wellacted.
I really really liked it.
I thought that was great yeahyeah, and the fact that maize

(29:04):
gets it too.
She understands the subtext inways that, like ella, didn't
which was also really nice andlike I'm not sure, and amenadiel
doesn't either yeah it.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
I thought that was interesting, that it like it
felt like each of those goodbyesthey did a good job in the
writing of symbolizing therelationships.
So, like everything is verystraightforward with Linda and
he makes sure to bestraightforward with Linda
because that's who she is.
She helps him, like, understandwhat's going on in his head.

(29:36):
And then with Mays, she getsthe subtext in part because
she's known him for millenniaand knows like when he's acting
like this it's becausesomething's wrong.
But you know he is making itclear like this is, this is a
relationship that has not beengood for you and I'm not going
to let myself do that to youanymore.

(29:56):
With Ella, it's it's.
Ella doesn't get the subtextbecause she's she's still very
new to the fact that he's morethan just a wealthy businessman
who's eccentric, and she's alsolike so sunny that you know
wouldn't occur to her that thisis like if he doesn't actually

(30:17):
say it, it wouldn't occur to herthat this is like you know,
like I'm not going to see youagain.
And then with Amenadiel, likethey're always talking past each
other.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Around each other.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, even when it's good things, and in the past
Lucifer has gotten angry atAmenadiel for that, but this
time around he just lets ithappen, because they both are
worried about things that aremore important.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
It was nice, yeah, so I do want to talk about another
.
Goodbye, dan.
Talking to trixie yeah as wesaid in a previous episode, it's
disappointing that they wroteit in such a way that, like Dan
had no idea that he needed totalk to Trixie and like, okay,
maybe he didn't, but likeLucifer and Maze would have
gotten it and you know, like andI could see it being written as

(31:19):
like Lucifer and Maze, like no,you, seriously, it's something
about your daughter and Danrefusing to believe it.
Like I could see that where I'mjust like I can't do it.
No, I refuse to believe it, Ican't subject her to me, you
know?
Like something like that Icould see.
But instead they made it likeeverybody suddenly struck stupid

(31:40):
.
Yeah, so, but the conversationthey have.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
I, I was telling you before we started to hit record
um, first day of summer break,my kids are home.
One of them is building a 70million piece Lego and, uh, he
wanted to show me how far he'dgotten.
So he came in to get me to showme how far he'd gotten.
In the middle of that scene andI'm like, and he's like, are

(32:11):
you sick, mom?
You, okay, I'm like, it's okay,I'm just watching.
Something's making me cry.
He's like okay, but thefierceness with which pixie
defends Dan to himself, you'dtake that back.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, and which couldn't have happened if he'd
been himself Right Like I, Iimagine.
If he had looked like himself,if she had known she was talking
to her father, oh, it wouldhave been totally different.
Yeah, yeah.
So like there's something justlovely about that.
Um, I don't believe in woostuff.

(32:52):
I really don't.
I want to because it's fun, butit makes me feel like there are
times when I have interactionswith people or conversation with
someone that makes me feel likeI've talked to dad or something
and you know, like it's stuffthat would not be able to be

(33:12):
part of our conversation if dadwere actually here.
But I'm able to say it becauseyou know it's Vincent Lamech and
so, like I don't really believethat that's what's happening,
but it's nice to think that,like energy wise, like cause, I
do do think that there's, likeyou know, putting out into the
world this I, you know, an ideaof like I'm so glad that dad

(33:39):
gave us the film education hedid.
You know, things like thatwhere, um, I think I told you
after I saw nope in the theater,a jordan peele movie person I
most wanted to talk about itwith was dad, like I just like,
oh my god, he would have.
I think he would have hated it,but he would have had really
strong opinions about why hehated.

(33:59):
I mean to be clear, he wouldn'thave hated it because it's a
bad movie.
He would have hated it, becausechildren in danger, yeah,
children in children in dangerwould have bothered him, but the
actual storytelling he wouldhave enjoyed that.
He would have eaten it up with aspoon.
And I ended up writing a fanletter to Jordan Peele telling
him, like you know, you gave memy dad back for an afternoon,

(34:23):
back for an afternoon, because Ikept thinking, like I could
hear it in his voice, what he,what he would say and, like um,
what his opinion would be on onthe character of Jupe um, who
had been a child actor.
um, and you, know, all of thesethings and so, like that
interaction that um Trixie haswith Lamech but her dad, it kind

(34:49):
of reminded me of that thereare moments when someone we've
lost comes back to us in a waythat's unexpected and not
necessarily like I definitelydon't believe.
You know.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
That ghost isn't having that person.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, but it's.
It is a similar kind of umreturn in a way that's nice,
that's very nice, it's very nice.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
So the last thing that I it doesn't have to be the
last thing we talk about, butthe last thing that I want to
like make sure that I lift up is, um, a line that lucifer says
terese, which is that if I cando it, if the devil can be
redeemed, then anyone can, which, in my mind, is actually like

(35:37):
the kind of moral of the story,it's the of the whole yeah
series.
Right, I think that was, andthat's what made it not what the
whatever like christian momsgroup thought that it was right.
It was actually.
That's what made it not thesort of um satanic corrupting

(36:05):
influence was that thefundamental kernel that they
were trying to convey was aredemption arc for the devil,
and so the fact that theyactually said it out loud in so
many words is both likevalidating and satisfying and

(36:25):
also like feels like cheatingsomehow.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
So when I got my, uh, my master's degree, um, I had
to take.
There were some, uh,undergraduate prerequisites that
I had to take.
One of them was a Shakespearecourse, cause I just happened to
not take any Shakespearecourses when I when I was an
undergrad, and so the only onethat I can fit in my schedule
was through a community collegelocally.
It was an online class and therequirements for writing papers

(36:54):
was that you had to underlinethe thesis, and I got points
taken off my first paper becauseI didn't, because I was just
like come on, and so I'm sayingthis because they're underlining
the thesis yeah.
Yeah, it feels like cheating alittle bit yeah, yeah and but at

(37:19):
the I it may have earned it.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I do really like that finalscene.
I love that we see Reese againBecause, as horrible as his
actions were because he diddirectly lead to the death of an
innocent young woman he doesnot deserve the same hell that

(37:42):
Malcolm does, does not deservethe same hell that Malcolm does,
and I do believe that he iscapable of learning.
He's so stubborn, which is whyhe is still there so many years
after his death, but like that,that tenacity that he had that

(38:03):
made him a good reporter, alsomade him a bad person in a lot
of ways.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
I mean, it is interesting that he's able to
sit on when reese, in particular, is an interesting character
when we think about the likeripples.
So this is the the, the settingthe office, the therapist's
office, is based on hisex-wife's office.
Oh gosh and they're about thatand the therapist is the guy
that she was cheating with,wasn't cheating but was sleeping

(38:32):
with.
That made him so ungodlyjealous that he was, um you know
, pushed to, uh, to homicidalbehavior.
So the fact that reese can evenbe in that office and be having
a conversation to me suggeststhat he has made considerable
progress.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I don't know how that likeslipped past me.
I didn't even think about that.
I had thought about the factthat like it must be weird for
him to be talking to Lucifer ashis therapist, but it just
hadn't even occurred to me.
Like he's going to recognizethat office, oh wow, okay.

(39:10):
But that also might explain whyhe's sitting next to Lamech,
who's like I could chew chew inyour face and not chew out of
your misery.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
He's still pretty far down the self-actualization
scale, their group hasn'tprogressed very far yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, I do feel like Brent Norwalk, who is the bro-y
character from the Good Place,yeah, and who we see in the end.
Who's like.
But if I tell her to smile,she'll look prettier.
Aren't I doing a good thing?
Yeah, I feel like he's in theretoo, like he's getting therapy

(39:46):
with Lucifer too.
Yeah, I appreciate the storyarc for Amenadiel and the way
that they show it that herealizes like this is not a job
for one angel individual andthen in that like ending montage

(40:08):
, he goes from sitting on thislike elevated throne with
everyone bending the knee tolike no, we're not doing this
anymore.
It's not a hierarchy, and Ifound that really interesting.
And he also made it clear thatlike he's going to continue to

(40:28):
come back to Earth, he's notgoing to be God full time
because he wants to see his songrow up and he wants to check in
on the LAPD and make sure thatSonia is continuing that fight
with Chloe's help.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Yeah, well, and what he says to Lucifer is that
angels will be required to spendsome time, yeah, on earth, with
humans.
So yeah, I I think what Iappreciated about that was not
just the act of the sentiment,but the fact that they told us
in visual storytelling likethere's no, like there's no, um,

(41:05):
there's no dialogue for thatbit.
We see it all visually, whichis pretty cool.
It's pretty cool yeah.
Yeah, this is fluff, butamenadiel's god costume was the
it's just all white version ofof his angel, but it really
emphasized how weird those likearm gauntlets are well, and then

(41:29):
you could see like the elastic,that when he puts out his hand
to take chloe's and they kind oflike close up on his like hand
and wrist and you can kind ofsee like the elastic and like
velcro and shit and you're justlike really they put this season
out in a hurry.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, it was weird.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
It's a weird looking outfit, yeah but at least he
wasn't wearing birkenstocks withthe socks the one thing that I
noted while I was watching thatscene was like oh so, like
linda's envision, like linda'svision of what silver city looks
like is actually not that faroff, yeah.
And then I immediately thought,well, because they wanted to

(42:11):
use the same set, yeah, yeah,definitely took me out of the
story.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
I, same thing, Same thing.
I was just like couldn't youhave made like Linda's vision?
Look janky.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, because the only thing janky about it was
tom's costume.
Yeah, yeah and hair.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, the thing that struck me the first time I saw
it and we've talked a little bitabout this in previous episodes
is how the story also isfocusing on the importance of
meaningful work or or a purpose,a meaningful purpose, and I

(42:52):
really that really was struck meand was important to me the
first time I watched it.
This time around, I, I, I wasn'tas and I think it's cause I
wasn't watching it in a bingelike in a binge, I really saw
that with, like Chloe's storyand how she was like lost
without her job because sheneeds a purpose, and then like

(43:15):
there's, you know, you put aexclamation point on it with
Lucifer saying, like being Godisn't my calling, and I found my
calling this time around, whenhe says to Amenadiel being God
isn't my calling, I was justlike, oh, for fuck's sake, who

(43:35):
wants to do that?
If you have to do like,sometimes you just have to do
things because they need to bedone, and like that, that was my
.
I was really annoyed, kind offor the same reason that
Amenadiel was.
It's just like we fought a war,we lost siblings, and sometimes
you just have to step up to theplate in the way that Lucifer

(43:57):
wants to as a father, and so Ithink that that's unfair of me.
But it's also like when you'retalking about divinity, for
someone to be like.
It's not really my calling.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
I have to say, like I have recently, like within the
past six months, six to 12months like the idea of calling
has come up, for whatever reason, a couple of times, and I hate
it.
I hate the idea of calling, of acalling like a calling, a
singular no-transcript.

(44:58):
But the thing is like, if therewere, if I did pick one of the
things that I'm good at or oneof the things that I like doing
cause they aren't necessarilythe same and just pursued it
with unrelenting attention, Iwouldn't be happy, Not forever,
Like you'd be Reese, Like andand, and it may be the case that

(45:21):
there's a thing that I want todo and and it, and it is a
calling for me for a time, andthen it may fade, and that has
to be okay too, and that has tobe okay too.
And so I think part of whatjust feels crunchy in a bad way
for me with this idea of Luciferfinding his calling, is that

(45:45):
even more so than me.
I'm 48.
So what have I got?
Another 40, 50 years tops inorder to like have to pursue
this calling.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
I intend to live to be 104 and I don't want a whole
lot of time without you.
So Okay, so you got to like 60is 59, 59 years.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Still still 60 years left.
He's got literally forever left, so he's gonna have to do this
one thing for forever.
Yeah, because it's his calling,yeah I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, and like I, I know what they were going for in
that.
He was saying, like this issomething that I can do and I
want to do and it will put goodinto the world and all of that
is is is excellent.
But you know, speaking of dadagain, when I would complain
about work as a kid, dad wouldsay that's why they call it work

(46:52):
.
If we're fun, they'd call itplay.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
Right.
I have said if it were fun,that we would call it super
happy fun time.
I was wrong, friends.
I was wrong.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
We don't have to be miserable in order to make a
living Well, but the thing thatI come back to on that is I love
what I do.
I'm a freelance writer and Ilove it.
I have always wanted to be awriter.
I never thought I would writeabout money.
But even though I love what Ido and it is the perfect

(47:29):
intersection of my skills and mypreferences and things that I
can do to help other peoplethere are times when I hate it
because that's why it's calledwork, and so and that's
something that I think is aproblem with, like you know, as

(47:51):
an early 20, something our unclesaid to me like you know, if
you, if you do what you love,you'll never work a day in your
life.
And it's like that's not true,because, you know, even writers
have to do invoicing, evencomedians have to deal with
bookers.
So that that's part of it.

(48:12):
And then the other thing is, ifwe have it as this idea of
there's this one thing that'sperfect, it's on high.
So I almost didn't have thiscareer because I started writing
, because we moved when I waspregnant with my eldest and he
was due at the beginning of thenext school year, so I was going
to be teaching that year.
So I started looking for somefreelance writing gigs and one

(48:35):
of the first ones I landed was amoney site.
My joke back then was like lotsof people want you to write for
them, but only the money.
Bloggers have figured out howto make a pay so they can pay
you.
And so that took off prettyquickly and within a year I was
invited to a financial mediaconference and I was like I
don't want to go.
This isn't real writing.
I'm supposed to be a novelist.

(49:01):
I'm supposed to be woefullyliterary, with my cape flapping
in the wind and I'm writingabout credit card myths.
And then, like six weeks beforethe conference, I was like what
the hell is my problem?
People want to pay me to putwords on paper, which is what
I've always wanted to do.
Why am I quibbling about howwhat I'm writing?

Speaker 3 (49:15):
what the words are.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Yeah and so and so that's.
That's kind of my issue withthe idea of a calling is because
then you turn down things thatdon't exactly fit what you've
always thought, because yourthinking is like, well, it
doesn't fit, it's not perfect,so it's not my calling, yeah,
yeah, any other substantivestorytelling or other political,

(49:42):
sociological, psychological,cosmological things that you
want to make sure we lift upfrom these final two episodes.
No, um, no, I think, um I'm.
I was glad that we saw and Iknow that they didn't have time
to do more than this but I wasglad that we saw, like again in
that montage, like theinteraction between Chloe and

(50:02):
Sonia.
I've already forgotten the, the, her, her, last name.
Harris.
Thank you, officer Harris.
Um, and we see that she becomesdetective um at when Chloe is
Lieutenant.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
Right.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Um, and I, I like I really appreciated that there's
part of me that just we shouldeven it's just with extras.
There were more if there were.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes, and there's even with that.
There's a little bit of whitesaviorism in that.
Yes, yes, that that soniaharris.
Harris has her detectiveship tolike.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
she has to thank Decker for it, and I think
they're trying to indicate thatit's not quite like that,
because they have Amenadielthere with Chloe.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
But Amenadiel chose Chloe to be his, you know, God's
representative on the LAPD.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
So there's still a little bit, a little bit, a
little.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's a little questionable but you know we've
come a long way.
Yeah, copaganda, it's my hopethat you know.
We look back on things thatwere progressive in the nineties
and like they are horrifying towatch.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
So things that feel like a big leap forward.
Now my hope is, 30 years fromnow we'll be like, ooh, that's a
cringy, yeah, thank goodnesswe're further along from there.
So like that's going to happenand it should happen, and I hope
that it happens more quicklythan 30 years.

(51:38):
Um, but I I see that happeningyeah, yeah, agreed.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Well, I guess there is one more thing.
Um, I said it would be the lastthat I brought, but I, when I
asked that question I'm thinkingabout.
I'm thinking about the scenewhere lucifer convinces rory not
to kill lemak and rory's likedevil face is coming, and even
sort of the way they talk aboutthe monster that lives inside

(52:05):
you and not letting it drive.
That's not the word they use,but yeah, I felt that was so.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I liked that scene where he convinces her not to
kill the Mac but then later onhe's like I know the monster
inside you and I'm like ouch.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
That's not what?

Speaker 3 (52:27):
Yeah, I didn't, I didn't.
I'm not sure how I feel aboutthat dialogue either and, like I
make, I understand how we gotthere because of the visual
imagery of theself-actualization and the devil
face.
That's how you see yourself.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
And also.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
If he had said something like instead of the
monster inside you, the monsteryou see yourself as, You're
worried you will become yeahyeah, but I don't yeah.
It was just said as if it werea fact yeah, I don't know, there
was something to just there's.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
There's something in there that I I can't quite put
my finger on, that doesn't feelquite right which I think is
about labeling negative emotionsas monsters.
Yeah, yeah, like her anger wasrighteous, she was entitled to
be exceedingly angry with Lamech, and that's not monstrous.

(53:31):
Like that anger is notmonstrous.
Yeah, and I think I guessthat's that is that's what
monstrous.
Like that anger is notmonstrous.
Yeah, um, and I think I guessthat's that is that's what it is
, that's what's bothersome.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
And like lucifer kept her from acting on the anger on
something that she couldn'ttake back it's um, like in um
black panther, killmonger, hisanger, his anger righteous, and
that's why, like, one of thethings I love about him as a
villain is that he is asympathetic villain because he

(54:00):
has very, very good reason forfeeling the way he does.
What makes him a monster is theway he acts on that righteous
anger, yeah, but the, the andthe movie does a really good job
of not shaming him for hisanger.
And, in fact, t'challa changesthe way he leads Wakanda because

(54:26):
he learns from Killmonger whatthe world is like outside of
Wakanda and he learns from thatrighteous anger.
And so it makes it clear thatthere is nothing wrong with the
anger.
What's wrong is how he goesabout dealing with it or
expressing it.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Right, but I think the way that the dialogue was
written, like the monster insideyou, to me, me that implies
that the anger itself is themonster, um, and I think that
dialogue, like so much of thisseason, could have stood for a
little bit of revision.
Yeah, so it's more like youknow what your anger could make

(55:07):
you capable of, or something Idon't know but.
And they wanted to use the wordmonster because of the devil
face.
But I think therein actuallylies the problem.
I think that actually was theproblem, because the anger, and
the monster anger is notmonstrous.

(55:27):
It can make us do monstrousthings, but anger itself is not.
That was the lack of nuancethat that is that is bothering
me now yeah yeah, well, we'vebeen talking for a long minute
now, should we?
I feel like I threw in mypieces of fluff like, along the
way, did you have any that yousaved?

Speaker 2 (55:46):
yes, okay, the moment when charlie, when Charlie gets
his wings and Amenadiel is like, yeah, in such a dorky way,
yeah, that is what I took.
That is the thing that Iremember like most vividly from

(56:10):
that montage.
That's funny, because it justwas adorable, it was so sweet.
I did wish that Adriana couldhave been at the part of
birthday party, although then,like him, having wings would
have had to have been explained.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Yeah, oh, lucifer's red shirt.
It's pretty hot.
I like that.
Kind of remind me of Sherlock'spurple shirt is pretty hot.
I like that Kind of remind meof Sherlock's purple shirt.
Purple shirt of sex.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Yeah, they both go to the same tailor, I think.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
It fits very well.
Yeah, it really did.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
The other little bit of fluff is I feel like the
showrunners were like let's givethem one little ass on the end,
Because we get to see.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
Yes, yes, that opening montage when he's
singing and dancing.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Yeah, and he's feeling good and jumps out of
bed.
It's like here's a roadie.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
Sure, yeah.
Well, there was a lot of fanservice in that whole thing.
I mean not just the dancingthere was also the checklist, or
like check on father frank, isone of the things that he was
supposed to do yeah, yeah, whichthat?
That's pretty awesome yeah,that was yeah straight up fan
service, but I thank you thankyou for my service thank you for
my pornography.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
Yeah, well, you know, if they couldn't get.
Oh, I'm not gonna remember thatactor's name, it's domingo, I
think, domingo coleman,something like that.
Um, who, if?
If you look him up, he was atthe met gala?
I think it was this year, mighthave been last year, and he
looks really hot, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
The man can dress, oh my god, and so like I, it would
have been lovely if they couldhave gotten him back, just for
like a cameo like for that, thatmontage where we see charlotte
and dan in heaven, like we couldhave seen father frank there
like playing the piano orsomething that could have been
really cool.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
That could have been really cool.
But you know, yeah, this is thedifference between a show and a
novel.
Yeah, exactly, bring them backin the novel, no problem.
In the show you got to dealwith acting schedules and and
the light tracks and things,yeah, yeah, other fluff uh no, I

(58:31):
think that's all my fluff,although, oh, there is no baby
in that blanket.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
No, there's definitely not a baby on the
blanket.
Nope, I'm not even sure.
There was like a sack of flour,I think it was just a blanket
Just a blanket.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Also like her name is Aurora.
Also like her name is AuroraRory's a nickname, like I mean
my kid goes by a nickname too.

(58:58):
It's longer than her name, butlike none of the stuff that was
like welcome home would havesaid the nickname yeah, eh, okay
.
Well, since this is the lastepisode, I think we said we
would maybe offer to ourlisteners our recommendations
for other series to binge.

(59:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So obviously from the two of us.
Good Omens is at the top of thelist.
It is a very different take,but a neil gaiman property and
also, in some ways, they're inconversation with each other in
some ways they are inconversation with each other.
And there is, there is asimilarly irreverent take on

(59:44):
sort of the um, heaven, hell,god, kind of a questions and
envisions heaven and hell asjust bureaucracies, which is, uh
, an interesting sort ofdifferent iteration of this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Similarly bureaucracies, uh, the good
place, also in conversation withthis show, uh, and clearly um,
joe and ildy, um, and theshowrunners were influenced by
it, because lee, when we meethim in heaven, says I don't know
what the fork is going on here.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
So right, that was which is a good place thing.
Where you're not, you can'tcurse in heaven, so like there's
.
There's that one scene whereeleanor is saying like you know,
I'm not saying ash hole, I'msaying ash holes why can't I say
fork?
Yeah, yeah, um, and then Ihaven't watched them, but you

(01:00:39):
went down to tom ellis rabbithole and actually watched, like
miranda, did you watch rush?
Can you tell us about those?

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
so I did not watch rush because I couldn't find it.
Um, I'm not sure if it'sstreaming anywhere in the U S.
Yeah, so, uh, well, it's a U Sshow, cause he, he, yeah, yeah,
it's a U S show.
And he, he, he has an Americanaccent in it, so that's the
other reason why I didn't like.
I looked for it but didn't looktoo hard, because I'm like he's

(01:01:06):
going to be Michael the wholetime.
Michael, yeah, oh, thank you.
But but I did watch Miranda,which is the sitcom that got him
his big break.
Oh, I cannot remember her name,but it's starring Miranda.
I don't know her last name, butshe's a British comedian who is

(01:01:27):
very awkward.
She's a little bit like aBritish Liz Lemon, except more
awkward and not as like I don't.
Um, Tina Fey is veryclassically pretty.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
She's conventionally attractive.
Tina Fey is yes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Miranda is not, yeah, yes, um, and she's also very
tall.
She's like six foot one, Ithink, which is, I think, part
of the reason why they cast TomEllis is because he was at least
three inches taller than her.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
He's the boyfriend, Gary.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
He's Gary, he's the uh, he's the love interest.
They've been friends for like15 or 20 years.
At the, at at the onset of theshow, um and uh, they've never
gotten together, even thoughshe's always really liked him.
But it's um, just a number ofdifferent things, reasons why
not.
It is a little bit of cringyhumor, but I was able to watch

(01:02:18):
the whole thing and enjoyed it.
There were some scenes that Ineeded to fast forward through
because they were a little bitlike Rowan Atkinson, mr Bean,
where she gets herself intothese ridiculous situations,
ridiculous situations, and someof it has to do with the fact
that British people will justlike not make eye contact
because they're embarrassed onher behalf and their reaction is

(01:02:39):
part of what's funny.
But I was sitting there goinglike, oh God, it's so
embarrassing for a couple ofthings, but for most of it it
was really really funny.
And there's there's somewonderful relationships in there
, like her best friend.
She and her best friend arelike really hilarious together
and the the running gags, likeshe's she's like awkward about

(01:03:01):
sex and so she'll like sexanytime she says it.
And her mother is very posh andum and is like wants her to act
in a certain way, and so she'llbe like, what fun, fun about
anything that Miranda does thatshe doesn't really approve of.
So it's it's well worth the um,the, the checking out.

(01:03:23):
And uh, a young Tom Ellis isjust, he's adorable, and and the
physical humor.
He does a lot with physicalhumor in that too, which is also
pretty great.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
Any other shows that you want to recommend to our
listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
So there's a couple others that I feel like have a
similar flavor.
Dead Boy Detectives yes,there's a similar like well,
there's a case of the week.
Yeah, dead Boy Detectives,except that it's without
propaganda.
Without propaganda becausethey're um ghostly private
investigators and they aresolving, getting justice for

(01:04:01):
ghosts who died without theirmurders being solved or or
deaths being or have some sortof unresolved on you know
unfinished business.
Yeah, yeah and uh, you, you getthe.
This is also a neil gaimanproperty.
He did not write the show, buthe created the characters, and
so there's another sense of likethe bureaucracy of the
underworld, right right, theafterlife, basically, so that I

(01:04:26):
highly recommend.
It's amazing.
What were you going to?

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
say Sandman.
Sandman, I haven't seen it,tracy has so and the dead boy
detectives are in the sandmanuniverse.
And so sandman was the, thegraphic novel, the comic that in
some ways really put gaiman onthe map, which again like his
brain and the way he kind ofconceives cosmology and like

(01:04:52):
what is sort of bigger thanhumans, really, really
fascinating.
And so there are people whohave been game and fans for a
long time who want to kind ofgatekeep and say that the
sandman, the tv show, is not asgood as the graphic novel.
I say, poppycock, I think thegraphic novel is amazing and
also it's old at this point.

(01:05:14):
And so there are things thatthey did that updated the story
to bring it into the 21stcentury.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Like Kirby Hal-Baptiste playing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Death.
Yes, a lot of people were madthat Death was Black and there
are other things that kind ofget updated in the TV show tv
show, but gaiman was theshowrunner, he was involved at
every step and it is gorgeousand the storytelling is
beautiful and it I mean it'sdisturbing because gaiman often

(01:05:47):
is but um, but disturbing inways that are kind of like
disturbing because humans aredisturbing, I guess, is what I
want to say Like human beings dodisturbing things, but but the
sort of the, the questions thatit asks about the nature of the
universe are really reallyfascinating.

(01:06:08):
And in fact Lucifer was.
Initially there was a comicbook which was a spinoff from
the sandman universe.
This lucifer with tom ellis isout, is has its own thing.
It's really like spun off somuch that I'm not sure it's even
still in the sandman universeand they do have the same

(01:06:29):
original source material.
So that's pretty cool yeah, um.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
One other recommendation I'd like to make
that is not Neil Gaiman related.
It's Dead End Paranormal Park,which is an animated series.
My eldest introduced me to it.
There's two seasons on Netflixunfortunately got canceled after
the second season.
It ends on a sad note that Iknow would not have.
There would have been a lesssad finale, but it was a

(01:06:59):
satisfying ending and it ismostly very light and fun.
It's a young boy named well,not young, he's a 16 or 17 year
old boy named Barney, who istransgender and is fighting with
his family, applies for a jobat this amusement park for
Pauline Phoenix, who is a kindof Dolly Parton-esque character,

(01:07:23):
except that she's bad.
Dolly Parton is all that isgood and joyful in this world
and there's like a portal tohell in this amusement park.
Barney ends up living there.
His dog ends up being able totalk.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
He has a tiny piece of a demon in him.
Yes, I've seen it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Yeah, and there's a whole.
The idea of found family is inthis.
One of the things I loved aboutit is that there is a little
bit of angst based on the factthat Barney is trans, but that's
not the point of the show.
That's not the driving force.
Other than it gets him to liveat the amusement park rather

(01:08:06):
than at home, it doesn't reallyhave a whole heck of a lot to do
with the plot.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Right, it's not actually about.
It's not about Barney's trauma.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Yeah it's not trauma Because Barney's plot Right,
it's not actually about.
It's not about Barney's trauma.
Yeah, it's not because Barney'syeah, yeah and uh like there's
a lovely romance between Barneyand and another worker at the
park and it's just, it's justdelightful, Well worth the watch
.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed it too.
I enjoyed it too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Owl house, I feel like is another one, that's uh
yeah, I liked Owl House a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
I really really liked Owl House.
I like talk about binging.
I binged it.
The way that I binged Luciferand I, I, I adored it.
It was really great.
There's some um and again thereare some queer characters.
There's a non-binary characterand that's just who they are.
It's not about their queernessor their non-binary-ness and

(01:08:56):
it's supernatural and there's aportal between worlds and the
themes are about found familyand also about being oneself,
being true to oneself, versussort of fitting into the slats
or the predefined lines thatsociety would ask you to fit

(01:09:19):
into.
Yeah, also animated.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Lucifer Itch, if you haven't seen it.
Veronica Mars it's entirely inthe real world, but it's a case
of the week, not copaganda.
There's a little bit in there,but for the most part it's not,
because Veronica and her fatherare private investigators and
set in high school, so it's likehigh school noir.
Very, very funny, has verysatisfying romantic arcs as well
.
Very funny, has very satisfyingromantic arcs as well.

(01:09:57):
And then Tracy and I wementioned it earlier, but we've
been rewatching BBC Sherlock,which I think also has a similar
kind of feel to it.
Yeah, and you get the normalpartner and the eccentric
partner.
Yeah, so you get that so kindof like bones um or castle.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
Yeah.
So I also want to mention Emily, and I have a second show
called deep thoughts aboutstupid shit, uh, which you
should go check out.
We do this kind of the, thekind of analysis that we did
with Lucifer, but for adifferent show or movie every
every week.
We did do an episode aboutLucifer to which I will link in

(01:10:39):
the show notes for this show,but in general, please come
check us out.
We have a really, really goodtime.
We sometimes have guests on totalk about their favorite things
, and I'm going to put it outinto the universe.
My hope for this show is thatone day we will have creators
famous creators even come on totalk about their influences.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Please come on our show.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
Not to talk about Lucifer, joe and LD, but to talk
about shows that mattered toyou when you were a young person
.
So, uh, you know, we'd love tohave you come on and talk about,
like, the TV shows that youwatched when you were a kid and
what's you know, like, is thisactually moonlighting?
Is that why we have thispairing, the way that you did it

(01:11:24):
?
Like where did it come from?
And and like, look, like welook back at those things and
see the good, the bad and theugly of the things that created
the furniture in our brains thatwe maybe don't even know are
there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Yeah, well, Em, this has been fun, oh my goodness,
I'm kind of like I'm feeling alittle misty.
This is the end.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
Yeah, me too, me too, but it's not the end, because
deep thoughts must be the end.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Yes, Well, I'm starting to understand why
kumail nanjiani just kind ofabandoned his x-files files,
because, like, getting to theend is kind of sad, whereas if
you just abandon it it's neverover I mean honestly, if we we
were so close that I was like wegot to just finish it.
But but like there was a, longgap.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
There was a long gap between, like our episode at the
end of season five and thenwhen we started season six and
probably if we weren't doingdeep thoughts, I would have said
like do we really need?

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
to yeah, partially because season six is nobody's
favorite.
It's been real.
It has.
Thank you all for joining us onthis journey.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on

(01:13:01):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
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