Red Rum And Coke

Grab your axes and prepare to journey into the Overlook Hotel as we celebrate the 45th anniversary of Stanley Kubrick's divisive masterpiece, "The Shining." What makes this psychological horror film continue to haunt viewers nearly half a century later? Why did Stephen King despise what Kubrick did to his novel? And what happened to the little boy who played Danny?

We explore the film's troubled production history, including Shelley Duvall's traumatic experience under Kubrick's demanding direction and Jack Nicholson's decision to stop memorizing constantly changing scripts. The artistic battle between King and Kubrick reveals fundamental differences in how they viewed evil, madness, and human agency – making this film a perfect vessel for examining our own views on these themes.

Between our deep dive into cinematic history, we share vital mental health resources for Mental Health Awareness Month, emphasizing that while "mental illness is not your fault, it is your responsibility." We also reflect on the difference between horror movies and psychological thrillers, sharing our personal relationships with scary films and what makes them effective at getting under our skin.

Whether you're a devoted fan who can quote "Here's Johnny!" with perfect timing or someone who's been meaning to watch this classic for years, our conversation offers fresh insights into this landmark film that continues to spark debate, analysis, and occasional nightmares. Join us for a conversation that, like the Overlook Hotel itself, contains multitudes – and maybe a few ghosts.

Like, share, and subscribe to "Like Whatever" wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us @likewhateverpod on all social platforms, and send your thoughts on The Shining (or any other Gen X topic) to [e-mail].

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Two best friends.
We're talking the past, frommixtapes to arcades.
We're having a blast Teenagedreams, neon screens, it was all
rad and no one knew me Like youknow.
It's like whatever.
Together forever, we're neverthe best ever Laughing and
sharing our stories.
Clever, we'll take you back.

(00:25):
It's like whatever.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Like Whatever a podcast for.
By and about Gen X.
I'm Nicole and this is my BFFF,heather.
Hello, so how was your week?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
It's alright, it's, it's uh, yep, yep, it's all
right.
Okay, we both had a week yeah,yeah, mine totally sucked ass.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
So, yeah, I'm not gonna talk about that we we're.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Neither one of us is gonna talk about that.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
No, I, so instead I found some random other things
to talk about.
Um.
So, first and foremost, netflixhas picked up sesame street.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
No, I saw that.
That's so exciting, it's soexciting.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm so happy.
I figured somebody would atsome point and I'm proud to be a
netflix uh member I'm actuallysurprised it wasn't disney to be
perfectly honest, they buyeverything, yeah, and in one of
the muppet, weren't they all jimhenson's to begin with?
Muppet, weren't they all?

Speaker 1 (01:29):
jim henson's to begin with.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I don't know, but yeah, sesame street will
live on.
Yay, yay, um.
And then I just needed to talkabout this and I know it's not
appropriate, but I'm gonna do itanyway.
I know because I listened tonpr today and just talking to
family members and people thatwork at the hospital and the
pregnant woman, um, who's onlife support.
I can't even because she is ina no abortion state.

(01:51):
That's just awful.
So she I want to say she washaving migraines.
I'm not exactly sure what italmost sounded like a brain
aneurysm, maybe.
Maybe she went brain dead andthe hospital is keeping her
alive.
She was only just barely overeight weeks, and eight weeks is

(02:13):
the cutoff in this state, notthis state.
I can't remember what the statewas.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
A stupid state.
Sorry whoever's from that state, but it's stupid.
Yes, you need to fix that.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Get out and vote.
So, yeah, it's just absolutelyhorrible and apparently also the
baby is going to be born, morelikely than not, with any number
of disabilities from beingblind to having learning
disabilities, deformities, anynumber of things.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Never mind the psychological that it's going to
have after.
It's sentient enough to knowthat its mother was kept alive
by machines.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
It's absolutely wretched and it's just blows my
mind that anyone would everthink this is the best option of
people saying, you know, theydonated their person's organs
and they did not realize what ittook, because it takes like a
week for them to be able.
They don't just take them rightaway, right um in well some
cases.
But the one lady specificallyher son, had a very rare blood

(03:37):
type so they had.
It took like a week for them tofind homes for all his organs,
so they had to keep him alive,and she said she just could not
believe how much it took to keephim alive, or his body alive,
his organs alive, because youstart shutting down immediately.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, I mean yeah, your brain and your body know
you're dead.
Yeah, for all intents andpurposes, yeah, that's just,
it's just awful, it's sickening,it's really sick, and so just
this is what we're talking aboutwhen we're talking about
abortion being legal and illegal.
These are the issues that comeup.
It's not the welfare mom that'sgetting pregnant and having

(04:23):
abortions whenever she feelslike it, like it.
That's not what it is.
No, anyway, yeah, okay, I justneeded to get that off my chest.
Yes, yeah, uh, and finally, inbetter news, the tush push will
live on for.
Another season, not for theGreen Bay Packers.

(04:44):
God, they're being whiny aboutit.
Did you see the vote?

Speaker 1 (04:48):
and the score.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
I did so.
The vote to keep it was 22 to11.
And we beat them 22 to 11.
Yeah, so yeah, if you don'tlike it, figure out a way to
beat it Just stop it.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, get stronger.
I don't know what to tell you.
I don't know what to tell you.
There's got, practice it.
If you know you're gonna playthem, practice it and like find
a way yeah but nobody else has aroman god like us at
quarterback.
Good lord we're not talkingabout Randall here, I mean come
on.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, I mean in form.
Yes, he does work very hard.
I know, I know, I'm sure he'syes, it's just.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
It is a little ridiculous Like just learn to
figure it out, stop crying, yeah, don't let it happen.
It has been stopped.
Yes, there are teams who havestopped it.
Yes, yes, not washington, noand not green bay.
No, but you're crying.
Yeah, it's fucking football.
Man up, will you exactly jeez abunch of fucking girls.

(05:58):
Um, I did want to bring up onething that we have been severely
lacking in the last month.
It is a mental health awarenessmonth and since we both have
mental health issues we reallyso many so many, so very many.
Um, we really should have been,you know, toting it, but so I

(06:21):
just wanted to take one secondand um to give you some numbers
if you need them or if you knowsomebody.
So immediate crisis support youcan hit 988, that's the suicide
and crisis lifeline.
Call or text 988 or chat at 988.

(06:42):
Lifelineelineorg.
The service is free,confidential and available 24-7,
365 for anyone experiencing asuicidal mental health and or
substance use-related crisis.
You can text HOME to 741741.
This service provides free,confidential, 24-7 support via
text for any type of crisis.

(07:05):
The National Alliance on MentalIllness is you can call them at
1-800-950-NAMI, which is 6264.
You can also text NAMI to 62640.
Or you can email the helplineat namiorg.

(07:25):
I don't know if it's nami ornimi, but you get it.
Substance Abuse and MentalHealth Service Administration
National Helpline is1-800-662-HELP, that's 4357.
This helpline offersconfidential treatment, referral
and information services inEnglish and Spanish for mental

(07:46):
disorders and or substance usedisorders.
And then Mental Health Americaphone number 703-684-7722, toll
free 800-969-6642.
And they provide supportresources and advocacy for
mental health for two.

(08:07):
And they provide supportresources and advocacy for
mental health.
There are also a lot of other umthe, the trevor project for our
lgbtq plus friends 1-866678-678 to connect with a
counselor via text, or visittrevorchatorg for online chat.

(08:31):
And then there is the jedfoundation 212-647-7544.
Jed focuses on protectingemotional health and preventing
suicide for teens and youngadults.
So there you have it.
If you need help or you knowsomeone who needs help.
We're coming also up on PrideMonth, so you know we are, have

(08:58):
always been and will always beallies to the community.
Um, we both spent a lot of timein and around the lgbtq plus
community and we both know manypeople in the community.
Um, so yeah, yep, yep, um also,I just want to say one more

(09:20):
thing and then we can move onorg.
Um, my favorite podcast, as youknow, is Last Podcast on the
Left and Marcus Parks of LastPodcast on the Left.
His thing is and it's one ofthe greatest quotes I've ever

(09:40):
heard that mental illness is notyour fault, but it is your
responsibility.
Yes, and I could not agree morethat you are indeed responsible
for your own health and seekinghelp, and you are.
If you're on, if you havemedication, you need medication,

(10:01):
it is your responsibility totake that medication.
And yes it is not your fault,but it is your responsibility to
take that medication.
Yes, it is not your fault, butit is your responsibility, so
that's a great quote.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yep, that's all I have to say about that, and my
life is exponentially bettersince I have been on regular
medication.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
I would say that but I want massive amounts of
medication.
I guess it's better, I don'tknow.
Massive amounts of medication.
I guess it's better.
Oh no, I think I need to havethat dna test where they can
find out exactly whatmedications work for you.
Yes, that's pretty cool.
I mean, I like what I'm on now,but sometimes well, the problem

(10:39):
is it only treats one issue andI have multiple, so but I can't
take all of that to kind ofcounteract like that yeah, sorry
, I have to.
I have to go alone on my anxietyand that's not always good.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah all right.
So, yes, if you need help,please utilize those resources,
um, and reach out to somebody.
There aren't always the bestmental health services out there
, but there are people out therewho care very much and are
there to help you.
So keep looking if you can'tfind what you need.

(11:16):
So before we get started, Iwould like to ask everyone to
like share rate review on any ofthe socials.
You can find us wherever youlisten to podcasts.
Obvi Follow us on all thesocials at likewhateverpod and

(11:37):
we are on YouTube atlikewhatever.
Capital L, capital W, and youcan send an email to
likewhateverpod at gmailcom.
All right, now that we'vegotten that out of the way,
let's fuck around and find outabout the movie the Shining so
excited so I find that each weekit's better if I let an idea

(12:04):
come to me.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
And it got very last minute, this time, and nothing
was coming to me, drives me andheather was texting me what's
the topic and I'm like I don'tknow, I am a planner.
I don't like things being outlike I am.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Drives me nuts yeah, I think I'm not diagnosed adhd,
but if I am, I definitely havethe trait of waiting until the
very last minute to do anything.
I always thought it wasprocrastination, but apparently
that's a huge sign of ADHD.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
What's my excuse then ?
Because I don't think I haveADHD.
I just don't.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
So yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .

Speaker 2 (12:41):
So I just Googled on this day and put in May 23rd and
turns out that Friday May 23rd,the day that this episode drops
, is the 45th anniversary of theShining.
It came out in 1980.
It's a psychological horrorfilm that's based on the 1977

(13:03):
novel of the same name.
It is the first film in theshining franchise, which I've
never seen.
Anyone beyond that because Idid, I don't I saw the newest
one did you?
Was it any good dr sleep?
Was it wait?
Did I see duck?
no, it's not bad I actually Idon't know.
I want to say I saw thecommercials and thought I might

(13:25):
actually want to see it?

Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, it's not bad Okay, maybe.
I'll give it a go.
It's Danny, as a grown up.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
That's neat because I have information about Danny in
real life as a grown up.
All right, anyway, it wasdirected, produced and written
by Stanley Kubrick, which isfunny because my mother's maiden
name is K Brick.
I did not know that.
Now I can no longer use that asmy secret question.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
Everybody Let me tell you what bank she's at.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, I'm very, very German for a mother.
Let me tell you what bank she'sat.
Yeah, I'm very, very German.
My mom's last name was KayBrick and my dad's last name and
my main name is Egler, andbefore we came over on the boat
it was Von Egler.
So, yeah, a lot of German.
So anyway, uh, and it was alsowritten with Diane Johnson.

(14:23):
The film stars Jack Nicholson,shelley Duvall, danny Lloyd and
the Scat Scat Crothers Scat.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Men.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Crothers.
I don't know what happenedthere, all right.
So for those of you who haven'tseen it in a really long time,
because I'm going to assume allof you have seen it.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
If not, stop right now and go watch it.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yes, because you have missed out.
You really have.
The plot is Jack Torrancearrives at the Overlook Hotel to
interview for the open positionof winter caretaker.
The hotel itself is built onthe site of an Indian burial
ground and becomes completelysnowbound during the long
winters.
Manager Stuart Ullman warns himthat a previous caretaker got

(15:12):
cabin fever and killed his wholefamily and himself.
Jack's son, danny, has esp andhas had a terrifying premonition
about the hotel.
Jack's wife, wendy, tells avisiting doctor about danny's
imaginary friend, tony, and thatjack had given up drinking
because he had physically abusedDanny after a binge.

(15:33):
Oh, such a good movie.
Oh my God.
The family arrives at the hotelon closing day and is given a
tour.
The head chef, dick Halloran,surprises Danny by speaking with
him telepathically and offeringhim some ice cream.
He explains to Danny that heand his grandmother shared a

(15:55):
gift which he calls shining.
Danny asks if there is anythingto be afraid of in the hotel,
particularly room 237.
Halloran tells Danny that thehotel itself has a shine to it,
along with many memories, notall of which are good.
He strictly warns Danny toavoid room 237.

(16:16):
Because you know when you tella kid not to do something I'm.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
from now on, I think I'm going to start staying in
hotels and asking specificallyfor room 237.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
I bet it happens.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
I have no doubt that it does.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
And there's something about the room number later too
.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
Is that going to be in your fun facts?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
I don't remember if it's in the fun facts, but a lot
of this was all fun facts too,Besides the plot.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
There's a lot of stuff surrounding this movie.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yes, all right.
So a month passes and Jack'swriting project is going nowhere
.
Meanwhile, danny and Wendy havefun and go to in the hotel's
hedge maze.
Jack discovers a model of thismaze showing Wendy and Danny
inside it.
In one of the hotel lounges,wendy is concerned about the

(17:09):
phone lines being out due to theheavy snowfall and Danny has
more frightening frighteningvisions as time passes.
Jack slowly starts actingstrange and frustrated, often
prone to violent outbursts.
Danny's curiosity about room237 finally gets the better of
him.
Like I said, when he sees theroom, has the room door has been

(17:31):
opened?
Uh.
Later danny shows up injuredand visibly traumatized, causing
Wendy to think that Jack hasabused Danny again.
Jack wanders into the hotel'sgold room where he meets the
ghostly bartender Lloyd, whoserves him bourbon on the rocks.
Jack complains to the bartenderabout his relationship with

(17:51):
Wendy.
Afterward, wendy shows up andapologizes for accusing Jack,
explaining that Danny told her acrazy woman in one of the rooms
was responsible for hisinjuries.
Jack investigates room 237 andencounters a ghost named
Lorraine as a young, naked womanin the bathroom having a bath,
who comes out and kisses him,and I remember that scene as a

(18:13):
kid and I was like, oh my god,she's totally naked.
Like why is my mother lettingme watch this?

Speaker 3 (18:20):
I mean the shit we were allowed to watch.
I mean we shouldn't even beallowed to watch the shining.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Now I would actually pull myself out of rooms when
they were watching scary likesomething I had already seen or
that I'd seen parts of, and I'dbe like'm going to go play over
here.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
I have no business watching this movie.
I'm going to go play becauseI'm Entirely too young for this.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm going to have nightmares, for sure, and then
you're going to yell at me forscreaming in the middle of the
night.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
I never had nightmares about scary movies.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
I don't remember if I did used to have a recurring
nightmare when I was four and welived in the trailer park and
that the trees were aliens andwe'd always be in the car.
We had a Subaru and I'd be inthe floor in the back seat
because I was so scared, and thetree aliens would walk up and
say take me to your leader.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
That's what aliens did when we were kids.
That's what aliens did in the80s.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
That's what aliens said in the 80s, and my mom
would always be like no in her Icould see that yeah, so yeah
totally.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
I used to tell my sister that, um, there were
aliens and that when I turnedher light on and off, I was
signaling the aliens to come gether.
Oh, she would get so madbecause I would just stand there
and just flick, turned herlight on and off.
I was signaling the aliens tocome get her.
Oh, she would get so madbecause I would just stand there
and just flick the light switchon and off, I'd be like they're
coming for you.
Oh my gosh.
Oh, she'd just get so mad.
She deserved it, though she did.
She was a horrible kid.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
During that kiss she then morphs into a rather
oldting woman who chases jackout, cackling at his infidelity.
Jack tells wendy he saw nothing.
Wendy and jack argue aboutwhether danny should be removed
from the hotel and jack returnsto the gold room, now filled
with ghosts having a costumeparty.
Uh, here he meets who hebelieves is the ghost of the
previous caretaker, Grady, whotells Jack that he has to
correct his wife and child.

(20:17):
Later, Jack sabotages thehotel's two-way radio and the
snowcat by removing severalrelays and its magneto
respectively, cutting offcommunication and access to the
outside world.
Meanwhile, in Florida, Hallorangets a premonition that

(20:39):
something is wrong at the hoteland takes a flight back to
Colorado to investigate.
Danny starts calling out theword red rum frantically and
goes into a trance, nowreferring to himself as Tony
Wendy discovers Jack'stypewriter and that he has been
typing endless pages of arepetitive manuscript.

(21:00):
All work and no play makes Jacka dull boy.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Or if you're watching the Simpsons all work and no
play makes Homer somethingsomething Go crazy.
Don't mind if I do.
I say that to my sister all thetime formatted in various
styles uh, horrified.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
She confronts jack, but he attacks her before she
knocks him unconscious with abaseball bat and locks him in a
kitchen pantry.
Jack converses through the doorwith grady, who then unlocks
the door, releasing him actuallyI had to, had to slide to you.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
The Simpsons is no TV and no beer makes home, or?

Speaker 2 (21:37):
something.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, tony, I should correct that,
because I know somebody's goingto be mad about that.
Uh-oh, I remembered.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yes, all right.
So Tony has written Red Rob inlipstick on the door of Wendy's
bedroom, which is murder,spelled backwards.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
It is indeed.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
As seen from a mirror .
At that moment, jack, armedwith a fire axe, begins to chop
through the door leading to hisfamily's living quarters.
In a frantic maneuver, wendysends Danny out through the
bathroom window, but is unableto fit through it herself.
Jack then starts chopping downthe bathroom door with an axe

(22:21):
and leers through the hole hehas made, yelling the iconic
here's Johnny.
But retreats after Wendy slasheshis hand with a butcher knife,
but retreats after Wendy slasheshis hand with a butcher knife,
hearing the engine of a snowcatthat Halloran has borrowed to
get up the mountain.
Jack leaves the room and beginsto wander about the hotel,

(22:42):
ambushing and killing Halloranwith an axe in the lobby.
Jack then pursues Danny intothe hedge maze by following his
footprints, but is misled whenDanny manages to walk backward
in his own tracks and leapsbehind a corner covering his
tracks with snow.
Wendy and Danny escape inHolleran's snowcat while Jack

(23:06):
slowly freezes to death in thehedge maze.
In the final scene, the cameraslowly zooms in on an old
photograph taken at the hotel onjuly 4th 1921, as midnight the
stars and you is playing throughthe hallways.
A smiling jack turance is atthe front of the crowd of

(23:27):
revelers, in which it isrevealed in a documentary that
it is an old incarnation of JackDo-do-do-do.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Oh, that's a different show Also excellent.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yes, I did used to love the old black and white.
Oh my God, the one with fuckingoh, my God.
Yeah, I actually found it.
I'll look at the old TVstations once in a while to try
to find old things and I foundthe old black and white ones and
it was this man.

(23:59):
He was a businessman, good dad,husband, and he just started
going crazy and it was so good,like the psychological thrillers
were the best back then.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
The William Shatner one with the gremlin.
I don't know if I remember thatone, oh my god on the plane.
That does sound a littlefamiliar yeah he keeps looking
out on the plane wing and thegremlins out there pulling shit
off and he's trying to yeah,yeah, oh, that one's scary okay,
okay.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
All right, now we're going to talk about casting
Nicholas.
So Kubrick was the man who madethe Shining, in case you missed
that from earlier.
So Nicholas was Kubrick's firstchoice for the role of Jack
Torrance.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Can't imagine anybody else being able to do it.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
All right, and wait till you hear this.
Other actors considered RobertDe Niro, that's a no.
Who said the film gave himnightmares for a month?

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Robin Williams, that's a hell, no, right
Although.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
No, the Fisher King, he is.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Oh good, but he's not murderous.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Correct.
Yes, he's just paranoid,schizophrenic.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
That is a great movie .
I know that's your favoritemovie and that's why your
daughter has her name.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yes.
That is where she got her name.
Harrison Ford, no, no.
All of whom met with StephenKing's disapproval.
Good on you.
Stephen King, for his part,disavowed Nicholas because he
thought that since he had shotOne Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest,
the viewer would tend toconsider him an unstable

(25:41):
individual from the beginningwhich is a very valid point,
michael.
Moriarty no.
Or Martin Sheen no, no.
Who would more faithfullyrepresent the profile of the

(26:06):
ordinary individual who isgradually driven to madness?
In any case, from the beginningthe writer was told that the
actor for the lead role was notnegotiable, and thank God he did
.
Yeah, lead role was notnegotiable, and thank God he did
.
Although Jack Nicholsoninitially suggested that Jessica
Lange would be a better fit forStephen King's Wendy, shelley
Duvall knew early that she wasthe one cast for the role, which

(26:31):
also, again, I cannot imagineanyone.
But no, but poor Shelley Duvall.
Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that,yeah.
Um, wendy's character in thefilm differs notably from the
novel, where she appears morecapable and less vulnerable.
Throughout the filming, kubrickpushed duvall hard.
It is said that the scene inwhich, armed with a baseball bat

(26:52):
, she walks backwards up thestairs before the attack of her
husband, she was notrepresenting a terrified woman.
Shelly was literally terrified.
I have heard that it was notgood for her, which really hurts
my feelings.
I I always just thought she wasan amazing actress, because she
just did look terrified thewhole time.
But I could see beingintimidated by jack nicholson

(27:16):
and, and if you have anaggressive director on top of it
.
Um.
So the shining had a prolongedand arduous production period,
often with very long week workdays.
Principal photography took overa year to complete.
Due to kubrick's highlymethodical nature, actor Shelley

(27:38):
Duvall did not get along withKubrick, frequently arguing with
him on set about lines in thescript, her acting techniques
and numerous other things.
Duvall eventually became sooverwhelmed by the stress of her
role that she became physicallyill for months.
At one point she was under somuch stress that her hair began
to fall out, which I can attestto that because that's happened

(28:00):
to me.
It did In a very stressful timein my life.
I recall.
So another time, heather wasthere for me, like every other
time.
All right, anyway, the shootingscript was being changed
constantly, sometimes severaltimes a day, adding more stress.
Nicholson eventually became sofrustrated with the

(28:23):
ever-changing script that hewould throw away the copies that
the production team had givenhim to memorize, knowing that it
was going to change anyway.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
He learned most of his lines just minutes before
filming them, which isincredible to me and the whole
acting thing is incredible to meto begin with, like I don't, I
can't remember.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
That is a special breed of person like and to be
able to put yourself out therelike that and and become
somebody else and yeah, but thememorizing thing, I mean, no way
get it.
The only thing I've ever beenable to memorize in my life is
song lyrics.
I was just going to say songs,and that's because they have
music to them.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
I can do every word of Rob Bass, but I don't know
any math at all.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
But that's because there's music with it.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
I guess that's true.
Maybe they should put moremusic to math.
Yeah, don't ruin music that way.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Okay, anyway.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
I hate math?
Yeah, she does, and I no longerhave to do it Because I'm a
grown up and I can say I don'tknow.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
That's right.
Fuck that shit.
You do it, that's right.
That's why you deliver the mailand you don't work the cash
register.
Do not do math.
Nicholson was living in Londonwith his then girlfriend,

(29:59):
angelica Houston, and that theshoot day lasted from 9 am to 10
30 pm, with turkle recollectingthat his clothes were soaked in
perspiration by the end of theday shoot.
He also added that it was hisfavorite scene in the film.
It is pretty good.
Yeah, they didn't have airconditioning.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
I don't think so.
Sometimes I wonder, because wedidn't have air conditioning but
we lived on the water.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
I did not have air conditioning.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
I don't know Was it a thing my dad did.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Oh, my dad.
Well, he used to really hatebeing hot, but now he lives in
Fort Myer, florida.
It's like 1000 degrees everyday All year.
Too hot, oh, it's so hot.
When I went down to see them ohGod bless, they had their
thermostat set on 78.
78.

(30:49):
That's too hot early, like lockthe bedroom door, strip down to
my underwear, kick all theblankets out to bed and spread
out like no fan.
That's too hot, yeah, yeah, butanyway, oh yeah.
So he always his house was anicebox.
You would literally open thedoor and it would like roll out

(31:10):
like freezers do in restaurantsthat's too cold.
Yeah, there's got to be a happymedium in there somewhere yeah,
and I remember in my mom's housewe did not have any form of air
conditioning and we were out inthe country where it was just
dead, still and silent all nightand so that was one thing that
was good about growing, becausethe beach a is like 10 degrees

(31:31):
cooler than inland and there wasalways a breeze.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
That because we lived right on the water.
So there was always a coolbreeze coming off the water
until they built houses allaround and it knocked on the
wind and there was the fuckinglighthouse used to go around in
a circle and my bedroom directlylooked at the beam, dead in its

(31:57):
beam like eye, so it would comearound.
That's why you got that bedroomyou probably least favorite.
Yes, I really was and it wouldcome around and shine directly
in your eyeballs as you tried tosleep every, however long it
takes it for it to wing around.
But my main memory of thathouse is the salt breeze, and

(32:18):
every time I smell salt air itjust reminds me of home.
But there was, um, I don't knowhow many of you know what a
catamaran is, but it is asailboat, and they would.
Across the street from us waslike a little boat rampy kind of
thing where they would justpull their boats up and anchor

(32:41):
them there.
And there was always catamaransthere and their mast has
whatever.
I don't know sailing terms.
So forgive me, but the mast hasa little metal thing that would
clink on the mast and I.
All night long it would clink,cl, clink, clink, and that's why
I have to sleep with a fan onnow.
Or maybe I should record thesound of a cataract clinking.

(33:05):
Maybe then I would get somedecent sleep.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah, I'm gonna try that yeah, but at my mom's house
, yeah, it was just god awfulhot and we were in a bi-level
house, so we were actually uphigher and yeah, it was just hot
.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Once they built all those houses there, we did get
window units, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
No, and I would.
My way of cooling off was Iwould sleep pressed up against
the wall because the wall feltcool, and then I would just swap
sides and lay against the wallto try to cool down enough to
fall asleep.
Yeah, good times.
Yeah, that's why my husbandwould be like, oh, it's not that
hot.
No, I mean, I will tolerate itto a certain point, but I'm not

(33:46):
suffering.
I hate the heat.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
I hate summer.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
I love summer.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
It's my favorite Next weekend is coming up as the
unofficial start of summer inour area.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
And traffic is already, will be a parking lot
for miles and miles.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
It's just.
I grew up without traffic,except for three months of the
year, and that's why I nevercould live anywhere with traffic
, because the three months ofthe year that there is traffic
it's horrible.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
I don't remember the traffic from being young, but I
do remember easily gettingparking spaces.
It's terrible.
Now it's like that year roundyeah, I mean you can go five,
six blocks down.
I used to have the guaranteedspot and it was perfect down at
the end uh, by the HenlopenHotel.
Yes, in that circle always hadparking there and it was perfect
down at the end uh by the henlopen hotel.
Yes, in that circle always hadparking there and it was a great

(34:39):
start and end point when mykids were little.
I could get my shit togetherand then we'll head on down.
It's a big park, but no thatyou can never get parking down
there now, all along the streets.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
It's year round.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Now too, it's well, and that's what I was going to
say is the part I remember isyou could go down there in the
winter and nothing was open,except maybe grottos yeah, which
was fine, but you could walkaround and it didn't matter,
like you just got to enjoy thefact that you live at the beach.
Yes, but can't do that now.

(35:12):
No, never.
Thanks, tourists.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Thanks a lot, covid.
Yeah, thanks Obama.
Why do we blame Obama for it?
Everybody does oh okay.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Everything's his fault.
Yeah, that was another thing Imeant to mention earlier.
Shout out to Joe Biden Get wellsoon, or at least don't suffer.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
I know a lot of people don't care for him.
I met the man quite a few times.
I don't know if I mentionedthis before.
I like to mention it because Iam a big joe biden fan same um,
I met him numerous times at uhhe was for those of you that
don't know joe biden.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
He is in love with delaware he loves the state of
delaware like nobody could lovethe state of delaware more than
joe biden it's just impossibleand I'm so excited we're gonna
get a biden library.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yes, I love the state of delaware, but nowhere near
the love that joe biden has samehere.
I love it here we have um quitea few festivals through that
are uniquely Delaware.
Yes, we do the biggest one andmy most.
Well, we don't have the oneanymore, which was Pumpkin

(36:24):
Chunkin, where in after theweekend, after Halloween, people
would launch pumpkins up to ahalf a mile in various different
things, and it used to be aweekend and it and it was.
It was just so very much funand somebody got hurt.
So they ended up stop doing boobad too, like they sued them

(36:46):
that anyway.
So they stopped doing it.
But Joe Biden, every year inthe bitter ass cold, because we
used to go with our French frystand, we used to go and sell
French fries, and he would comeevery year in the bitter ass
cold, out in the middle of afield with a bunch of drunk
people chucking pumpkinseverywhere and he would he would

(37:10):
eat something from every littlestand he would come.
While he was standing thereeating French fries, people
would come up to him and he wasa Senator at the time.
So of course you know youeither love him or you hate him
and everybody would be like, oh,this is what's wrong.
And he would sit there andlisten to no matter what you
said.
If you agreed with him, if youdisagreed with him, it didn't

(37:33):
matter, he would stand there andlisten him.
If you disagreed with him, itdidn't matter, he would stand
there and listen.
Our other most unique thing, andit is one of my favorite, I'm
sorry, I love it so very muchit's called returns day and it
is the thursday after theelection, yes, where all the
candidates ride in carriagestogether through the town of

(37:55):
georgetown, which is, we stateemployees are bitter because
sussex county state employeesget the day off.
It's to attend the parade, butthe rest of us have to go to
work.
It's a sussex county thing itis there's some sussex county
pride also totally fair.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
I truly am not jealous of it.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
I get it schools in sussex county closed for it if
you work in sussex county, youget to go.
If you live in sussex countyand you work in kent county,
though, you are allowed to goyou are allowed to have off all
right um, it's a.
Thing it's just people dress upin the 1700s outfits.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
They roam around.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Anyway, the candidates get into a coach and
ride a horse-drawn carriage andthey ride around the circle and
they wave to everybody and theyget to the courthouse and they
come out onto the balcony of thecourthouse and they each take a
hatchet and they bury it intosome dirt and they bury the
hatchet and then everyone canmove forward.
But they do it in Georgetownbecause that is the capital of

(38:58):
Sussex County.
Right, it's the absolute center.
It's 18 miles from anywhere.
That's why that beer was called18 Mile.
Oh, because Georgetown's 18miles from everywhere in Sussex
County.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Anywho, Fun fact.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Yeah, so it's where everybody would come to hear the
election.
So they come out on the, theyannounce who won, because way
back in the way day you didn'thave, you know, google.
So they would come out andannounce who won and then they
would bury the hatchet and thenthey could all move forward.
Joe biden participated everyyear until he was asked not to

(39:39):
participate.
After he became vice presidenthe went.
The first year he became vicepresident he did participate.
He insisted and it was insane,I was down there they had
snipers everywhere.
It was a big they had.
It was like a bunch of rulesthey had to follow, like
normally he's all up in thecrowd and then.

(39:59):
But they made him go very firstand there was like nobody else
around him and he kept trying toget out of the coach and they
kept pushing him back in and itwas just so.
After that they asked um, mrbiden, vice Vice President Biden
, very nicely, please don't comeanymore, because it's just too
much.
They couldn't allow certainpeople Not a lot of people could

(40:21):
be in the circle.
It was just it had lost what itwas meant to do because of
Secret Service.
So he was, and then when hebecame president, obviously that
was not going to go.
So, it's just shame, because hereally did enjoy it.
He was there every year and,again, he would talk to whoever.
I saw him at the state fairnumerous times.

(40:43):
He would talk to whoever wantedto talk to him about whatever.
So that's awesome.
That's my 10 cents on Joe Biden.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yep, so just sending you some good vibes.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
And he lives where I work.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, all right.
Uh, the door that jack chopsthrough with the axe near the
end of the film was real.
Kubrick originally shot, uh,this with a fake door, but
nicholson, who had worked as avolunteer fire marshal and a
firefighter in the californiaair national guard, tore through
it too quickly.
Uh, jack's line here's johnnyis taken from ed mcmahon's

(41:23):
introduction to the tonight showstarring johnny carson and was
improvised by nicholson.
I'm gonna do a podcast onjohnny carson one day too.
Okay, I'd love me some JohnnyCarson.
Well, I'd love me some JohnnyCarson, because my dad loved
Johnny Carson, right.
But I remember the last episodeI was working for Grotto's, the

(41:44):
Lewis Sports Grand Slam, grandSlam, yep.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Just in case anybody works there and they'd like to
sponsor us for any reason.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
And it was late at night.
Obviously when the Tonight Showcomes on there and they'd like
to sponsor us for any reason,and it was late at night, um,
obviously when the tonight showcomes on and it was this final
episode and there's a littleroom in that restaurant that's,
uh, like a partial circle,that's glass, right by the
parking lot um and the staff allsat in there there was a tv in
there and we all sat and watchedhis last episode together.

(42:16):
So that was really special.
I was like 19.
So it was fun.
Um, anyway, let me get back towhere I was.
Okay, so there was a postrelease edit after its premiere
a week and a week into thegeneral run, with a running time

(42:37):
of 146 minutes.
Kubrick cut a scene at the endthat took place in a hospital.
The scene shows Wendy in a bedtalking with Mr Allman, who
explains that Jack's body couldnot be found.
He then gives Danny a yellowtennis ball, presumably the same
one that Jack was throwingaround the hotel.
This scene was subsequentlyphysically cut out of prints by

(43:01):
projectionists and sent back tothe studio by order of Warner
Brothers, which was the film'sdistributor.
The footage has neverresurfaced and while it could
still exist, it is likely badlydamaged.
This cut the film's runningtime to 144 minutes, and Roger

(43:22):
Ebert commented if Jack didindeed freeze to death in the
labyrinth, of course his bodywas found, and sooner rather
than later, since Dick Holleranalerted the fourangers to
serious trouble at the hotel.
If Jack's body was not found,what happened to it?
Was it never there?
Was it absorbed into the past,and does that explain Jack's

(43:45):
presence in the final photographof a group of hotel party goers
in 1921?
Did Jack's violent pursuit ofhis wife and child exist
entirely in Wendy's imagination,or Danny's or theirs?
Kubrick was wise to remove thatepilogue.
It pulled one rug too many outfrom under the story.

(44:05):
At some level it is necessaryfor us to believe the three
members of the Torrance familyare actually residents in the
hotel during that winter.
Whatever happens, or whateverthey think happens, I found that
extremely interesting.
And I did not know that.
No, I did not know that either.

(44:25):
The film had mixed reviews atthe time of its opening in the
United States.
Janet Maslin of the New YorkTimes lauded Nicholson's
performance and praised theOverlook Hotel as an effective
setting for horror, but wrotethat the supernatural story
knows frustratingly little rhymeor reason.
Even the film's most startling,horrific images seem

(44:48):
overbearing and perhaps evenirrelevant.
Yeah, these comments werereally pissing me off.
Like these were all thesepretentious who just wanted to
criticize because you're insane,like what is wrong with you?
Variety was critical, statingwith everything to work with,
kubrick has teamed with jumpyJack Nicholson to destroy all

(45:13):
that was so terrifying aboutStephen King's bestseller.
A common initial criticism wasthe slow pacing, which was
highly atypical of horror filmsat the time.
Neither Gene Siskel or RogerEbert reviewed the film on their

(45:34):
television show Sneak Previewswhen it was first released, but
in his review for the ChicagoSun-Times, ebert complained that
it was hard to connect with anyof the characters.
In his Chicago Tribune review,Siskel gave the film two stars
out of four and called it acrashing disappointment.
The biggest surprise is that itcontains virtually no thrills.

(45:55):
Given Kubrick's world-classreputation, one's immediate
surprise is that it containsvirtually no thrills.
Given kubrick's world-classreputation, one's immediate
reaction is that maybe he wasafter something other than
thrills in this film.
If so, it's hard to figure outwhat I mean.
That is just so bitchy.
Well like so yeah.

(46:17):
Then just some more peoplecomplained I'm not gonna read
you anymore.
It was all kind of pretentiousstupid yeah boohoo.
Uh, it was one of only two filmsof kubrick's last 11 films, the
other being eyes wide shut I donot like that movie, sorry I.
I never watched it.
I don't like nicole kidman ortom or tom cruise.
I don't either and maybe that'sI, I never watched it.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
I don't like nicole kidman or tom or tom cruise I
don't either and maybe that'swhat I don't know I didn't
understand what was going on thewhole time.
I didn't want to have to payattention at all.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, I never looked or never watched it never sorry,
uh, but so the shining and thathorrible film um were the only
ones to not receive nominationsfrom BAFTA.
It was the only one ofKubrick's last nine films to
receive no nominations fromeither the Oscars or Golden

(47:05):
Globes.
Therefore, bfd.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
BFD bitches.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Instead, it was Kubrick's only film to be
nominated at the Razzie Awards,including the worst director and
worst actress, duvall, in thefirst year the award was given.
Duvall's nomination wasretracted by the Razzie
Committee on March 31st 2022.
Vincent Messiano's review of InAir's magazine concluded the

(47:47):
Shining lays open to view allthe devices of horror and
suspense endless eerie music,odd, odd camera angles, a
soundtrack of intermittent,interminably pounding heart.
Uh, hatchets and hunts.
Uh, the show is shallow,self-conscious and dull.

(48:11):
Read the book uh-huh, all right.
Reappraisal on rotten tomatoes.
The film has a certified freshapproval rating of 82, based on
101 reviews, which I don't knowwhen this article is from.
I think I forgot to do myreferences at the beginning too,
but I know fandom um, imbdsomebody else is where I got

(48:39):
some information from.
Um.
Anyway, I was surprised it onlyhad 101 reviews.
Yeah, uh, but with an averagerating of 8.5 out of 10.
Uh, the site's criticalconsensus reads though it it
deviates from Stephen King'snovel.
Stanley Kubrick's the Shiningis chilling, often Baroque

(49:00):
journey into madness,exemplified by an unforgettable
turn from Jack Nicholson 100years 100 thrills list and jack

(49:20):
torrance was named the 25thgreatest villain on the ife's
100 years 100 heroes andvillains list in 2003.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Do you know who I, who I, decide?
Oh, I have seen memes about andI agree 187 000.
Who is the greatest villain inall of movies is it um the joker
?

Speaker 2 (49:36):
by no okay, jenna, and forrest gump, and you're not
wrong, she was awful yeah, yeah, anyway, true, yeah, although I
never saw that movie, but Iknow enough about it.
She's awful trust me.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
yeah, she is the worst villain ever.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
In 2005, the quote here's Johnny was ranked 68th on
IAFI's 100 Years 100 Moviequotes list.
Critics, scholars and crewmembers, such as Kubrick's
producer Jan Harlan, havediscussed the film's enormous
influence on popular culture.
In 2006, roger Ebert, who wasinitially critical of the work,

(50:19):
inducted the film into his greatmovie series.
Saying Stanley Kubrick's coldand frightening the Shining
challenges us to decide who isthe reliable observer.
Whose idea of events can wetrust?
It is this elusiveopen-mindedness that makes
Kubrick's film so strangelydisturbing, and that's why I
said those criticisms were abunch of whininess because, that

(50:42):
is a really good review.
Yeah, I'm hating it the firsttime you saw it.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Well, it was also a different time.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
It was.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
I think that's one that probably has to settle with
you.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, mature, and I guess it's settled with us as
Gen X because we watched it whenwe were seven.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Mm-hmm, I would have been five.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
All right, here's the fun stuffthe response by Stephen King.
Stephen King has been quoted assaying that although Kubrick
made a film with memorableimagery, it was poor as an
adaptation, and that is the onlyadaptation of his novels that
he could remember hating.

(51:27):
I did hear that.
However well, it sounds likethey didn't get along from the
get go.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
I imagine so.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
I had read somewhere else that they only had the
producer, only called him once.
Yeah, and that was at the verybeginning.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
I think Stanley wanted it to be his thing.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yes, yes, even though it was Stephen King's thing.
Like there is no the Shiningwithout Stephen King, without
Stephen King.
However, in his 1981 nonfictionbook Danse, macabre King noted
that Kubrick was among thosefilmmakers whose particular

(52:05):
visions are so clear and fiercethat fear of failure never
becomes a factor in the equation, commenting that even when a
director such as Stanley Kubrickmakes such a maddening,
perverse and disappointing filmas the Shining, it somehow
retains a brilliance that isinarguable.
It is simply there.
And listed Kubrick's film amongthose he considered to have

(52:29):
contributed something of valueto the horror genre.
Before the 1980 film, kingoften said he gave little
attention to the film adaptationof his work, and I think that
speaks volumes too, and thatgoes back to what Ebert said as
well.
Like, I guess at the time theydidn't get it, but as they saw

(52:50):
how it affected pop culture andthe horror industry, they were
all like, oh, yeah, maybe Ishould go back and re-watch it.
Yeah, uh.
So the novel written while kingwas suffering from alcoholism
contains an autobiographicalelement.
King expressed disappointmentthat some themes, such as the

(53:14):
disintegration of family and thedangers of alcoholism, are less
present in the film.
King also viewed the casting ofNicholson as a mistake arguing
it would result in a rapidrealization among audiences that
Jack would go insane, due toNicholson's famous role as
Randall McMurphy in One FlewOver the Cuckoo's Nest, which

(53:37):
had come out in 1975.
Also one of my favorite movies.
King had suggested that a moreevery man actor such as
Voight-Reeves oh, christopherReeves, we didn't see him
earlier?
I didn't see that one either.
Didn't see that one coming,yeah, or more.
We already play the role, sothat Jack's descent into madness

(53:57):
would be more unnerving.
In the novel the story takes thechild's point of view, while in
the film the father is the maincharacter.
In fact, one of the mostnotable differences lies in Jack
Torrance's psychologicalprofile.
According to the novel, thecharacter represented an
ordinary and balanced man who,little by little, loses control.

(54:19):
Furthermore, the writtennarration reflected personal
traits of the author himself atthat time, remarked by insomnia
and alcoholism, in addition toabuse.
There is some allusion to theseepisodes in the American
version of the film Okay sohere's my thought on that, as
you just read that I hadthoughts too, so I'm curious to

(54:40):
hear what you have to say so Ithink the whole point more in my
opinion.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Sorry, stephen king, I get it, you wrote it, but
whatever, what do you know?

Speaker 2 (54:54):
um the.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
I think the reason why jack is such a good bit is,
for me, the movie isn't so muchthat an that any person could go
insane like that, but it's morethat it was already there yes
and that it well, that's it.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Like I.
So are you trying to say likeum, him as the insane person is
more important than him, whoeverit is, as the normal balanced
guy like he played it so well Ithink it's more of if you put a

(55:38):
normal, if you put a normalbalanced guy like christopher
reeve if you put christopherreeve in there, who is, you know
, superman or whatever you knoweverybody's all dark hands, yeah
, just the every man goodhusband, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Would he have gone insane, or do you have to have a
little bit of that?

Speaker 1 (55:57):
that gets brought out in the situation.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
Because you could stick me in that hotel all
winter long with zerocommunication with the outworld,
and I would not go insane.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
They would come when it's all You'd be like no.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
You'd have all the doors nailed shut, I would.
I would enjoy it Not sayingthat, christopher, drop more
food down the chimney, wouldenjoy it.
Not saying that christopher,more food down the chimney.
Not saying that christopherreed wouldn't go insane.
But to me the point is morethat it wasn't just anybody got
the job, but the fact that the,the building itself has the

(56:31):
shine has brought in yes, andthat is one thing, because the
sun had yes, the shining.
Yeah, he has the spn one and twoso yes, of course he would be
brought there exactly that's,and that, to me, is why he is a
better fit, because you can'tsee, robin will dark, crazy,

(56:55):
like I get the Fisher King, it'sa fun, crazy.
It's a little dark, but not andthere's no way Christopher
Reeve could have done it.
I mean, he's a lovely man andall, but he does not have that
in him, right?
And I think that the Kubrickstare is anybody going to do

(57:16):
that better than Jack?
I don't think so.
Yeah, I just don't.
So I think.
For me it was the fact that thehotel called them and the
previous caretaker also wentcrazy, like are they bringing in
?
It's attracting someone who hasthe ability.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Yes, that's already somewhere in there.
Like seriously, can you pictureanyone else besides jack
sitting there, frozen solid?

Speaker 3 (57:43):
no, like that's an iconic and and you know from
videography I guess for me astephen king should, of course
I'm, whatever I did that alreadyagain.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
What do you know I?

Speaker 3 (57:58):
don't know anything about stephen king, but for me,
if you suffer as an alcoholic umand insomnia and obviously you
got some serious stuff rollingaround in your brain because you
wrote all those lovely horrorbooks and stuff but you actually
are you but you can go out inpublic and act like, but you

(58:19):
have that in there, right?

Speaker 2 (58:21):
So I think that's what I wanted to talk about was
the alcoholism, and I do feelthat way and I do get where
Stephen King's coming from withthat that that was such an
important part of that book.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Because that's the place he was coming from when he
wrote it and it was just verybriefly kind of brushed over.
Like it really wasn't a part.
Maybe they didn't develop thecharacters well enough in the
beginning, but I don'tnecessarily think that took away
from it for me no, but I seestephen king's point right and

(59:00):
again, that goes to my pointalso, because if you're, did he?

Speaker 3 (59:05):
if it's christopher reeve and he was, you know he
wasn't an alcoholic with thewithdrawal.
I mean, is that what's causingthat?
You know, like you get thebeast and you're two different
people and I don't know.
Yeah, sorry, steven, I don'tknow.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Don't send clowns after me no, I will say I follow
steven king on all the socialsand he seems like a pretty solid
dude and he hates trump I don'tget me wrong, I love me some
stephen king.
I'm just saying and the shit hewrites about him is funny.
So if you're not following him,you should, because I'm going
to.
His social medias are prettyfun, uh, especially on uh, he's

(59:46):
on blue sky, which is anotherone that we are on if y'all are
looking for us, um, all right.
In an interview with bbc, kingcriticized duvall's performance,
stating the character isbasically just there to scream
and be stupid, and that's notthe woman that I wrote about.
Um, and I could see that pointtoo.

(01:00:10):
She did scream and be stupidthrough that movie, but she was
also terrified and I thought shedid an amazing performance.
Really I did too.
Uh, king's wendy is a strongand independent woman on a
professional and emotional level.
To kubrick, on the other hand,it did not seem consistent that

(01:00:31):
such a woman had long enduredthe personality of jack torrance
.
I mean, he's not wrong there,he's not.
I just feel like some stuff gotlost in translation between
novel and film.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
Well, when that's the other issue with with movies
that have been adapted fromnovels.
A novel you have 700 pages isto get what out what you want,
and a movie?
You only have two and a halfhours.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
So right, exactly yes , and a lot of empty dialogue
yeah, you have to yeah um kingonce suggested that he disliked
the film's downplaying of thesupernatural.
King had envisioned jack as avictim of the genuinely external
forces haunting the hotel,whereas king felt kubrick had
viewed the haunting and itsresulting malignancy as coming

(01:01:17):
from within Jack himself.
In October 2013, however,journalist Laura Miller wrote
that the discrepancies betweenthe two was almost the complete
opposite.
King is essentially a novelistof morality.
The decisions his charactersmake, whether it's to confront a
pack of vampires or to break 10years of sobriety, are what

(01:01:39):
matters to him.
But in Kubrick's the Shining,the characters are largely in
the grip of forces beyond theircontrol.
It's a film in which domesticviolence occurs, while King's
novel is about domestic violenceas a choice certain men make
when they refuse to abandon adelusional defensive entitlement
.
As King sees it, kubrick treatshis characters like insects,

(01:02:02):
because the director doesn'treally consider them capable of
shaping their own fates.
Everything they do issubordinate to an overseen,
irresistible force, which isKubrick's highly developed
aesthetic.
They are its slaves.

(01:02:24):
In King's the Shining, themonster is Jack.
In Kubrick's, the Monster isKubrick.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
I'm going to have to disagree again with Mr King,
okay, maybe.
See.
This is why movies are art andwhy novels are art, because they
are up to for interpretation,and my interpretation of it is
much as the nature nurturedebate.
Is it because he is there or isit because?

(01:02:54):
Is he there because he is who?

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
he is who he is that's I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
It's just it's what is shaping the situation and for
me, that's what I took from it,like what is what is it?
Is it again?
Was he drawn there because ofwho he is, or did that place
make him?
And I think that's what jackbrings to it yeah, the
uncertainty of whether or notyeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
It is still a movie that I have seen, probably at
least 50 times.
I mean a bare minimum we watchit like once a month yeah and um
, when I every time I watch it,I still have questions at the
end, and I think that's what thebeauty of that film is.
Yes, like you're just like what, what just happened?

(01:03:43):
Like that was amazing and ityeah all right anyway.
Uh king later criticized thefilm and did I already read this
?
Okay, no re, take two.
Uh king later criticized thefilm and kubrick as a director.
Parts of the film are chilling.
Charged with a relentlesslyclaustrophobic.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
Oh, oh.
I hate that.
I hate when you're looking at aword and then you're like, what
is that, yeah.
Or when you have to write aword and then you're like, what
is that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
yeah or when you have to write a word a bunch of
times and then it stops lookinglike that word okay, anyway uh,
claustrophobic terror, butothers fall flat.
Not that religion has to beinvolved in horror, but a
visceral skeptic such as kubrickcould just couldn't grasp the
sheer, inhumane evil of theOverlook Hotel, so he looked

(01:04:39):
instead for evil in thecharacters and made the film
into a domestic tragedy withonly vaguely supernatural
overtones.
And I can see that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
Right, but again you could even say like so, freddy
Jason, all of my favoriteslasher movies.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
I mean, there's both in that too, true, yes, and you
make a very good point here.
You really could argue thateither way.
Yeah, again, you leave themovie with questions.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Yeah, and that's what makes it beautiful what makes a
movie stand out over time?

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
is that it?
Is so up to interpretation yes,um, that was the basic flow.
Because he couldn't believe he,he couldn't make the film
believable to others.
What's basically wrong withkub's version of the Shining is
that it's a film by a man whothinks too much and feels too
little, and that's why, for allits virtuoso effects, it never

(01:05:51):
gets you by the throat and hangson the wall.
Real hangs on the way.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Real horror should and I don't disagree with him
there, because for me I don'tknow that it's so much of a
horror movie.
I mean I guess so, but for meit's more of a psychological
thriller, yes, like an ifb, andmaybe that's a million problem,
because a million percent?
I don't see it.
I mean, yeah, it's got a lot ofblood and whatever, but well,

(01:06:17):
just really in that one scene.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Yeah, and I can agree with that a million percent,
because until I met my husbandnow he loves um horror movies
and I was like, oh no, I'm tooscared, I hate them, but I just
really never was around anyonewho watched them so much, um, so
I just never watched them and Ijust was kind of scared of

(01:06:40):
everything back then when I methim, um, and then I agreed to
watch him with him, you know,just to try to compromise, you
know, and I liked it, or Iwasn't scared, yeah, like I am
super critical of horror moviesnow, yes, I didn't used to be.

(01:07:00):
I you know, everything wasscary to me and the gore, and I
hated it.
But now I can, he'll put one onin like 20 minutes and I'm like
no, just just turn this out.
I can't.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
Yeah, it's terrible relationship with horror movies.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
So but I grew up watching um the shining and
poltergeist and I neverconsidered them horror movies.
I even think poltergeist is apsychological thriller.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
I agree so because I think the problem is a
psychological thriller can alsohave elements of the
supernatural, whereas when Ithink about horror movie it's
like slasher, like monsters,monsters um clowns right, you
know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Uh, yeah, people who made skin suits out of other
people although I think, I thinkthat one's a psychological
thriller too, because it doesstart with his childhood, and I
think, I think, for me, a horrormovie is a boo horror movie,
whereas a psychological thriller.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Fucks with your head and I to me.
That gives me more like silenceof the lambs is the only movie
that I have ever had nightmaresabout.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Wow, yeah, god, that one got me one that really
scared me is the blair witchproject.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Never saw it really, you know, never to.
I can't take that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
I remember, yeah, I remember, I was on the edge of
my seat the entire time.
The beauty in that film isyou're always waiting for
something to happen and nothingreally ever happens.
But it's so fucking scary andit had neat parts.
Fucking scary and it had neatparts.

(01:08:46):
Like there's a part in it where, because kids start
disappearing, and they find alittle piece of flannel from
somebody's shirt, tied up in acouple knots, and they open it.
And when they open it I watchedit with like four people I
think when I saw it.
We all saw something differentin that piece of flannel and to
this day I don't know what wasin there, but we all saw
something different.

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
So for me a horror movie and it's probably just
because I grew up in the 80s forme a horror movie the
soundtrack is really important,like when you think of Jaws is
really important, like when youthink of Jaws.
Jaws when you think of Fridaythe 13th.

(01:09:29):
The music builds youranticipation so that you are
built up to a point whereliterally anything would scare
you, because you know it'scoming, you just don't know when
.
Just like like when you?
I don't know if you had thisproblem, but my father loved to
scare you, so when you walked,if he ran ahead of you and

(01:09:51):
walked into a dark room, youknew he was going to scare you.
You knew it was going to happen, but you didn't know when I'm
the scar.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
I'm not.
My husband is super jumpy.
I scare him all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
So you're heightened, everything is heightened, the
adrenaline starts pumping, and Ithink the soundtrack is what
makes those movies so muchbetter, because you know Jason's
coming when they start playingthat music.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
You know it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
You know when they start the music, the shark is
coming.
You just don't know when, and Ithink that builds up your own
fear, because you already knewwhat happened the first time
they played it.
Now you know what's coming, butyou just don't know when.
And I think that's to me asuccessful heart.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
That's a really good explanation.
I like that one.
Thanks, yep yep, I don't likethe newer ones I also used to,
when I worked in the casino, hadhave a very good friend.
I haven't seen her in a littlebit, but anyway.
Um, I knew that she had aproblem with peeing herself when
she got scared, so I used tolove to hide at work and scare

(01:11:06):
her.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Only mean thing I ever did like that was I did
when my sister was pregnant theshelf.
We had a shelf in front of thegrills and you would have to
reach up over the grill to getto the plates because they would
be warm.
And when she was pregnant shewould have to put her belly on
the metal shelf in order toreach.
And every time she did I wouldtake a plate and slam it down on

(01:11:28):
the metal shelf and it wouldmake the baby jump and she would
get so mad because she's likerunning to the bathroom.
Damn you, and it was the best,okay.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
King was also disappointed by Kubrick's
decision not to film at theStanley Hotel in Estes Park,
colorado, which inspired thestory, a decision Kubrick made
since the hotel lackedsufficient snow and electricity.
However, king finallysupervised the 1997 television
adaptation, also called theShining, filmed at the Stanley

(01:12:08):
Hotel.
The animosity of King towardsKubrick's adaptations has dulled
over time.
During an interview segment onthe Bravo channel, king stated
that the first time he watchedKubrick's adaptation he found it
to be dreadfully unsettling.
Nonetheless, writing in theafterword of Dr Sleep, king

(01:12:30):
professed continueddissatisfaction with the Kubrick
film.
He said of it of course therewas Stanley Kubrick's movie
which many seem to remember forreasons I have never quite
understood, movie which manyseem to remember, for reasons I
have never quite understood, asone of the scariest films they
have ever seen.
If you have seen the movie butnot read the novel, you should

(01:12:50):
note that dr sleep follows thelatter, which is, in my opinion,
the true history of thetorrence family.
So yeah, yeah yeah, he was neverhappy.
So here's a couple uh fun facts.
Fun facts uh, jack nicholsonachieved his character's anger

(01:13:12):
by only eating cheese sandwichesmaybe that was what was wrong
with me as a kid.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
As a teenager, I only ever ate cheese sandwiches.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
Well, see what?
Okay, well, that makes sensenow.
But my thing when I read thatwas eating cheese always makes
me happy, so I don't know howyou would be angry.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
I mean, I literally every day ate cheese sandwiches
at school.
One piece of bread, one pieceof cheese, one piece of bread,
nothing else.
Straight cheese sandwich.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Can a million percent see you doing that?

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
I'm pretty sure I have autism.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
And she's going gonna get tested.
Yes, all right.
I don't know why the snow inthe maze?

Speaker 3 (01:13:56):
was actually 900 tons of salt and crushed styrofoam.
Why?

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
is that environmentally friendly?
Why so much salt like?

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
just use more styrofoam oh, probably because
the salt would weigh it down orgive it that crunchy like
sparkly crunchy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
It was Danny Lloyd's own idea to wiggle his finger
when he talks to Tony.

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
I've been doing that the whole time.
I know Red rum, I know Redrealm.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
Since Danny Lloyd was just a little kid at the time
of the shooting of the Shiningand he'd never made a movie
before, stanley Kubrick was veryprotective of him and I was
very appreciative, because itsounds like Kubrick was kind of
a dick in a lot of ways, but hereally did take care of this kid
.
It sounds like a lot of ways,but he really did take care of
this kid.
It sounds like um, and hedidn't let on that the movie he
was making had ghostly naked oldladies and gallons of blood
pouring out of an elevator.
As far as lloyd knew just fromwhat kubrick and the crew showed

(01:14:54):
and told him the movie was hewas making was a drama.
When wendy carries dannythrough the hotel yelling at
Jack, she's actually justholding a life-size dummy, which
was done to avoid putting Lloydin such an intense scene.
It's probably easier for her tocarry too.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
She's not a large woman.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
No, she is not.
She is very small.
And I just last fun fact.
I was just like I wonderwhatever happened to him.
So Daniel Edward Sidney Lloydwas born October 13th 1972.
So he's about six months olderthan me is an American former

(01:15:35):
child actor best known forplaying Danny Torrance in
Stanley Kubrick's 1980 horrorfilm.
The Shining in stanleykubrick's 1980 horror film the
shining.
After appearing in the 1982television film, will g gordon
liddy lloyd retired from acting.
He became a professor at theelizabethtown community and
technical college in 2004.

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
That would be so crazy to be taught by like how
do you not walk into the roomand how?

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
are you him and?

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
not just write red rum your first day every year
yeah and yeah, yeah, justembrace it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
I would always take his class as much as I could and
I'd be like texting people likeI'm in danny's class right now.
They're like yes, we know,you've told us 5 000 times,
please stop telling us and he'sat a community college, so like
the average joe student gets togo see him, like he's not at
some big fancy school where justrich kids get to go all right,

(01:16:31):
that's great hey that would beyeah I know, and he was still
pretty adorable, like he kind ofstill looked the same, the same
, yeah, yeah I still like the.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
The simpsons version.
Yes, then it doesn't last 144minutes.
No, the shinnen.
I don't know.
I think maybe I could probablywatch the simpsons version of it
more than I could watch.
I don't know, I think maybe Icould probably watch the
Simpsons version of it more thanI could watch the actual

(01:17:03):
version of it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
Yeah, I mean it is a long movie.

Speaker 3 (01:17:06):
It is.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
It is.

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
It is yes.
I can't imagine watching it ina theater at this point Right.
It's too long, I can't sit inthose theaters for long yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
I have no desire to go see movies in the theater
anymore.
Like none movies in the theateranymore like none.
It's so sad too, and we hadeven, as of the last, however,
probably pre-covid.
I don't know if we've beensince then, but we would go up
to the imax it's like an hourfrom here up in wilmington and
that was, like you know, ananniversary or birthday where we
couldn't think of anythingbetter to do.

(01:17:37):
We go have a nice dinner and gosee a movie.
I didn't like 3d, I just likethe imax.

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
But I don't.
I saw labyrinth when theyre-released labyrinth in the
over the last year.
I think that's pretty much thelast time we were gonna go see
nosferatu, but it just kept notbeing a good time, or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
I did just finally see it the other night, my last
one was either a Marvel moviebecause I'm a huge Marvel movie
fan and they are fun in IMAX tosee or one of the latest Star
Wars.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
You're going to really enjoy my topic for next
week.
I already know what it is.
Ooh, unless I change my mind toreally enjoy my topic for next
week.
I already know what it is,unless I change my mind, unless
somebody dies like this week,she didn't get the death in time
.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):
RIP Norm.
Yeah, I haven't watched it.
I just can't.
I think I lack the attentionspan, and I don't normally lack
attention span, so I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Well, yeah, I mean I have to pee more often and I
can't just sit in one spot forlong periods of time, like shit
freezes up and gets sore andgoes numb and all that good
stuff.
So it we're too, old for movies.
Oh, I know what my last one wasit's too old for movies.
Oh, I know what my last one was, it was barbie.

(01:19:06):
Oh yeah, I went to the milfordand but that was nice.
They have like the cushyleather.
They have them in oceanrecliners like, plus they.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
They tore down my childhood movie theater they.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
They closed the one in the dover mall too, did they?
That was my childhood one, whenI was a teen.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
That's where we went to the movies, actually where we
work was the um food court ofthe mall that had the movie
theater that played the dollarmovie nights.
You remember that in rehobathey had the dollar.
I loved the dollar movie night.
Actually the one in rehobamidway does do.
It's not dollars.
I think it's four now, but theystill do a cheap movie night
because I know a lot of placesused to do like date night on

(01:19:41):
like a Tuesday or Wednesday theywould play.
And then of course there's theone in Frankfurt or Dagsboro,
the Clayton, which is.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
Is that the old timey one?
The old timey one.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
They only have one screen and they have a balcony
Yep, yep yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:19:56):
I know every time I ride past that one I'm like man.
I always forget.
That's here.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
They did a really cool thing, um, because they had
to redo everything to digitalbut they didn't have the money
to to do it, so they didfundraisers and they would play
um old movies every tuesdaywednesday, like monday tuesday
wednesday.
They would play like casablancaand like way old movies to
raise money and it was I'dprobably rather see movies like
that than modern.
They do play they play modernones, but I think they only play
modern ones on weekends and Ithink during the rest of the
week they play older.

(01:20:31):
I know they do a Rocky Horrorat Halloween.
I think they do a lot of other.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
I would really love to do Rocky Horror with you one
year yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:39):
I would like to do Rocky Horror.
I don't know why I never haveyeah, it's too late.
Well, and I don't even care ifwe don't.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
We don't have to go in character or anything.
I just want to go watcheverybody else.

Speaker 3 (01:20:50):
But they do it at midnight and that's late.

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
Oh, it is late.

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):
That's too late.
They do it at midnight, right,I don't know I never looked into
it more than that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:05):
Anyway, we've gone on longer.
Well, thank you for listening.
Thank you, nicole.
That was lovely.
Thank you, I love that movieyou can like share rate review.
You can find us where youlisten to podcasts, of course.
You can follow us on all thesocials at like whatever pod, or
you can send us a movie, and no, you cannot send us a movie I

(01:21:29):
mean, you can just keep it cleanlike we're too old for yeah, I
know you can say, yeah, I'm theone that checks the email yeah
oh, actually I don't need to seethat.
You can send us an email aboutwhether or not you think Stephen
King is correct, or?
Incorrect to likewhateverpod atgmailcom or don't like whatever

(01:21:54):
, whatever, bye.