July 7, 2023 • 28 mins
There is an incredible move of God happening in Egypt today. In this interview host Helen Todd talks with Lillian Maher, the vice president of the Fruit of Life Ministry in Cairo. They discuss the Coptic roots of Christianity in Egypt, in historic prayer on November 11, 2011, that altered the fate of the nation and what Biblical prophecies speak about the future of Egypt. You will also hear the profound influence of missionary work in Egypt and Lillian’s captivating personal journey towards faith.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What if you had a guide who could tell you how to
bridge a gap between who you aretoday and who you are destined
to be?
What if, each week, you couldhear a story of someone who has
tried and succeeded, or perhapstried and failed but learned
something in the process?
Limitless Spirit is a weeklypodcast where host Helen Todd
interviews guests about topicsand personal stories on defining
(00:23):
life's purpose, pursuingpersonal growth and developing a
deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
In every nation, in every time, in every place, god
saves himself pure people andhonest people.
that keeps his kingdom tocontinue.
So, whenever it happens, somepeople still have that heart.
What's happening now that it'sexpanding, in fact, those
remnants still growing in number.
(00:49):
They like witnesses, withouteven speaking, they save the
country from a lot of bad issuesor bad histories that we were
going to.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Welcome to another awesome episode of the Limitless
Spirit podcast.
I'm your host, helen Todd, andtoday we are traveling to the
land of ancient wonders.
I'm joined by a friend fromCairo, lillian Mahir, who,
together with her husband, leadsfruit of life ministry in Cairo
(01:22):
, egypt.
We talk about the Coptic rootsof Egyptian Christianity, how
the all-night prayer of tens ofthousands of Egyptian Christians
on November 11, 2011 changedthe course of Egypt's history,
and what biblical prophecies sayabout the future of Egypt.
You will also find out how youcan pray for the future of the
(01:47):
Church in Egypt.
Hello, lillian, welcome to theLimitless Spirit podcast.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Hi Helen, i am fine, i miss you.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hi, miss.
You too.
You're joining us from Cairo,egypt.
What time is there?
right now It's quarter to sixpm, so you are in your evening
time.
We're still here in our morningtime in Missouri and, thank God
, with technology, we can carrythis conversation like we're
sitting together in a livingroom.
(02:17):
Yeah, that's great.
Still, our friendship dates nowback 20 years.
I think We met in Amman, jordan.
At the time you and yourhusband were still dating.
I think You weren't evenmarried yet and you were
students at the JordanianTheological Seminary.
And I just remember thisbeautiful young girl on fire for
(02:39):
Jesus, and what stuck in mymind.
I remember asking you how didyou get your name Lillian,
because it's not, in my view, atraditional Egyptian name and
you told me you were named aftera famous missionary that came
to Egypt.
So, with that in mind, i wantto ask you how did you become a
(03:01):
Christian, being born in Cairo?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Okay, first, we met when I was newly married.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh, newly married.
So I remember, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
So when I came to the Lord while I was 17 years old,
i was invited to a youthconference at the time and then
I was from Coptic background.
What I felt strange is theirattitude towards Jesus.
they keep speaking with himlike a father, like a friend,
(03:32):
too close in fact.
So I remember nobody wasknowing what's happening inside
me, even me myself, but Iremember just praying like that
Okay, i don't know what's wrongwith these people around, but I
want to be like that.
So, and he heard that I neverknew that there's something
inside me that's happening.
(03:53):
But then I kept studying becauseI was in the last year of high
school, which is very importantyear here for entering the
college later.
So I kept studying and notfocusing on about anything.
After he allowed me to be movedfrom my city to go for
university in another closedcity, which was like depending
(04:13):
on him himself, like a father,as I called him.
I want to be like them.
And here it is, here he's myfather.
He took care of me very well atthat 40 years around.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So I think I made a mistake.
I said you were born in Cairo,but you weren't actually born in
Cairo.
No, i wasn't born in Cairo.
I was in Upper Egypt.
In Upper Egypt, and what wasthe city that you were born in?
Asyut, that's correct, and soyou mentioned that, and I think
I didn't even know that you camefrom a Coptic background.
(04:47):
So for our listeners who arenot familiar, maybe, with the
Coptic Church, can you give alittle overview of what Coptic
Church is, the ancient church inEgypt that dates many centuries
back to maybe the first centurychurch, and so it's very
fascinating, and so give ourlisteners a little overview on
(05:11):
what the Coptic Church is about.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
They are very strong in faith.
I mean, in the history Theysaved the tradition and the
Christianity in Egypt fordecades.
What persecution was happening.
But when I was born, you know,when you got a habit of having
Christianity, that was theattitudes during that time.
(05:33):
They keep going to church, butwithout a real, real relation
with Jesus.
They kept doing it like rituals, just like the Catholic Church.
It's the same, close to enoughfor each other.
They saved the pieces forsaints, They saved the times of
for fasting, but all thesethings to be done, Everything to
(05:55):
be built by heart.
So that was the problem.
So when I came to Christ that'swhat was the difference I felt
they have a good relationship,They can call him a father.
They kept calling him withoutany limitations of a friendship
or a fatherhood.
That was.
I was jealous at that time andI wanted that to be like that.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So we will come back to this subject later in the
conversation, but I don't knowif I shared with you or not, but
before we met you and Ramani,my exposure to Egypt happened
actually in Baghdad in Iraq, andso we met there a missionary,
and that was the early 2000s,when the war was going on there.
(06:41):
And so we went there during avery turbulent and crazy time as
missionaries, and so we metmissionaries only from two other
countries at that time.
One of them was South Korea andthe other one was an Egyptian.
So he was a missionary fromCairo who came to Baghdad to
(07:02):
proclaim the gospel, and Ithought there has to be
something happening in thisnation.
God must be moving, becausewhen a country, a church within
a country, starts sending outmissionaries, something is
happening there, and so thatalready put a seed in my heart
that I want to be where God ismoving.
And so then, meeting you andRamani was the next step, and
(07:25):
indeed God has done a lot inEgypt in the last two decades.
So let's talk a little bitabout that.
How would you describe what hashappened in the last 20 years
in Egypt?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Okay, in every nation and every time and every place
God saves himself, pure peopleand honest people.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
That keeps his kingdom to continue The remnant
that is called in the scriptures.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yes.
So, whenever it happens, somepeople still have that heart.
What's happening now that it'sexpanding, in fact, those
remnant still growing in number.
They like witness, without evenspeaking, they saved the
country from a lot of bad issuesor bad histories that we were
going to, i think, in spite ofbecause of the Christians here,
(08:15):
or the breivers in fact, egyptwas going to turning to similar
like all the countries around,but because of the prayers that
happened, especially during therevolution time, the church had
a unity that the three maindenominations here gathered
together in Mukhatam, as youremember, i saw I think you do
(08:36):
In the place, the wide placethat they have like a continue
whole prayer night together.
It was on the 11th, 11th of2011, a day not to be forgotten
for every Christian Egyptian.
So that day, i think, was likethe beginning to God's hands to
move in Egypt, to restore itfrom back a black, this destiny,
(08:59):
and that's what?
like a proclamation thatthere's God here and he saves
Egypt, he saves his country.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
And also it was like a witness for non Christians and
other countries around thatGod's here, he's here really,
this is a very powerful momentin the history of Christianity
in Egypt And I think it'simportant for the Christians
from other countries tounderstand this.
And I really want us to pausehere for a moment, because I
(09:30):
don't think it's known as muchoutside of Egypt.
So we have listeners tuninginto this podcast from all over
the world, so I want tohighlight this moment.
So 11, 11, 2011.
So the events that arehappening in Egypt at the time
for those who don't remember,maybe it's been 12 years ago So
(09:53):
what was happening in Egypt in2011 and the years surrounding
that?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
As you remember if someone remember that there was
the rule of Mubarak lasted foraround 30 years that people felt
that it will be turning like akingdom and he will inherit his
son later.
So they went for a revolutionagainst Mubarak to take him out
of the rule.
So they succeeded, butunfortunately or maybe
(10:22):
fortunately, i don't know Butduring that time the Brazilians
entered.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
During the revolution , and you're talking about the
Muslim Brotherhood right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yes, and made like a plot so that they can take the
role.
And it's really happened in2000 2013.
But the church during that timewas a very awake of what's
happening around and the dangersthat's coming.
So 11, 11, 2011 was like.
(10:51):
The minor state of prayerscontinued for the whole time
Till later we kicked thebrotherhoods, who overcome the
rule later.
By that way, it's what'shappening, as the country before
that time was dividedChristians and Muslims by the
prayers that showed thedisadvantages of the brotherhood
(11:15):
rule.
So even the Muslims went downfor them.
Second revolution Today is acelebration fact 13th June 2016,
.
To kick them off.
And we happened to be like aunity that when we went down the
streets for celebrations, i washugged tightly by another
veiled woman who do not know me,and so do I.
(11:39):
But because we get rid of them,we restored our country back.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
So it was a very powerful time that the church
made her role honest, this isnothing short of a miracle, and
the prayer that happened onNovember 11th of 2011 happened
at a very special place.
Again, i want to highlight theplace, mount Makatum because
unless a person visited Egyptand unless they had a very good
(12:07):
friend to take them there, theyprobably don't know that Mount
Makatum in Egypt, i think, iseven greater sight than the
pyramids, who everybody hasheard of, and it's the mountain
that was moved by the prayers ofChristians to prove to a Muslim
caliph that God is the true Godwho moves the mountains, and so
(12:32):
that was the miracle thathappened centuries and centuries
ago, but most recently.
I believe that it's also amiracle that Mount Makatum is in
the center of a garbage city,where the garbage collectors
live, and it's known as a dumpand slums for the longest time,
(12:52):
until a church was establishedthere in that community, a
Coptic church.
That is indeed the largestchurch building in the entire
Middle East.
It seats how many people Notsure about the number, because
it's very big.
I think it's 20,000.
I read somewhere in thebrochure that it's about 20,000
(13:14):
people and it's carved intoMount Makatum, into the miracle
mountain, and so this prayerthat changed the fate of Egypt
happened right there, i mean tome.
It makes me excited and in aweof God.
And how God, who says that Goddoesn't do miracles?
today?
right, it happened right beforeyour eyes.
(13:39):
Yes, it happened really So wereyou there at the church on that
day on November?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
11?
My kids were too young at thatage, but I watched it on the TV.
It was broadcast all the time,till the morning until 7am.
It began around 10pm and thenlasted till 7am next day.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
It's mind-boggling.
So the prayer of believers, whounited to pray for the fate of
their country, actually madethem united with the Muslim
people and prevented the countryof Egypt from falling under the
rule of the Muslim Brotherhood.
This is just a phenomenaltestimony of what a prayer of
(14:26):
believers can do to impact thecountry.
Thank you for reminding me ofthis story, because this just
makes me excited all over again.
So now it has been 12 yearssince then, so how do you feel
this affected what is happeningin the church today?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, in fact there are lots of people from not our
background who are coming toJesus a lot.
Also, we do not face like beingsuch persecuted as before.
Yes, it's still persecuted, butnot that much.
Not many people hate us for noreason as before, but some minor
(15:06):
personal issues, but not forthe whole as before.
So it's getting better.
The relationship between thetwo in Egypt, muslims and
Christians, also the unity thatbegins with the denominations.
At the time it continued.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Now you said there were three denominations.
Can you tell me what threedenominations were?
The Coptic?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Catholic and Evangelical And under the
evangelical.
For sure, there are a lot underthe evangelical, but we name it
here.
The three is the mainevangelical church.
It holds the needs, thereformation, baptism, whatever
that under the evangelicalchurch.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
This is such a testimony of what a unity
between believers can accomplish.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Later, one of the Coptic priests that was in 2011,
2011, had passed away last year, in March I think And his
funeral was like a testimonyitself.
It was like all thedenominations were there crying
for his departure, for Jesus,but also they were giving a
(16:18):
message that what he began withthe evangelical church because
they were in enemies as before,but not no longer They accept
each other.
They're trying to find whatthey are agreeing with more than
what we do not agree with, Sothat's a good point.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Praise God, praise God.
Well, world Missions Alliancehas been coming to Egypt for
these last 20 years and we hadto make a pause while there was
revolution happening and we werenot even allowed to.
I remember having a layover,actually in Cairo, right in the
(16:57):
midst of your revolution, andyou and Romani graciously took
me around the city, so I got towitness history.
I feel very, very privileged tohave been there during that
moment, but for the most part,we've come to Egypt on a regular
basis.
So well, what do you think?
what kind of impact do youthink our teams have made
(17:18):
through these years?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
First, before to speak about, I want to remind
you of taking photos with thetanks at that time.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
The tanks that were painted in gold.
That was the most impressivememory.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
One of the army soldiers, so you were part of it
, right.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I was.
That was a big privilege and itwas only thanks to you, because
they didn't want to let meoutside of the airport.
So if you didn't come and getme, i was touring Cairo without
a passport, actually, becausethey took away my passport.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Okay about all the national lines.
They have really come in a lotof years from ago and they
helped us very much.
In our ministry We go fororphanage.
Young kids feel the love thatthey feel that God sent tourists
or foreigners for them to tellthem that God loves them and
(18:21):
they were able to spread on themany candy, any toy.
They felt that they are special.
God sent people from very, veryfar away for them.
That's a remarkable issue.
Also, when we began to gotogether for the deaf and
speechless people, that wasamazing.
(18:43):
If you remember Tracy from thelast trip, she felt that she had
to speak with one of the momswho had really a problem of
accepting or treating her childwho was disabled.
He is not hearing well orspeaking well.
So she shared her testimonythat when she was young she had,
(19:04):
like she can't hear with one ofher ears and that affected her
badly when she was young andthen how she overcome it And she
began to speak with her.
If you treat with him normallyand do not differentiate between
him and his brothers, he willbe normally.
He just reacts with differentways.
(19:25):
So please look at him as normal, do not treat him as disabled,
and he will be normal.
Just the way of contacting isdifferent.
That's all, and the lady wasvery encouraged Me myself was
translating at the time.
I was very excited with what sheshared.
She did a lot of great jobs atthe time.
Also, when we shared themessage with the refugees.
(19:50):
That's very, very importantthing for us.
So World Mission Alliance wassharing and all of that.
She helped us a lot.
She opened the doors for whenforeigners come, they accept
more of us to come.
So she opened a lot for us todo and, minister, and continue,
minister here in Egypt.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Praise God, praise God.
This is wonderful to hear AndI'm thinking of this child that
hopefully, what Tracy sharedwith this child's mom maybe
changed the future for that kid.
And this is so much like God.
He can send a person from faraway just to make you feel
(20:30):
special, and sometimes this isall we need The affirmation
affirmation from God that we arespecial.
And so I think this is thebeauty of the Great Commission.
Sometimes we feel like I can'tchange the big problems that are
happening in the country.
(20:51):
I'm just one person,insignificant and limited in
power.
But how much beauty is in thefact that a mom and a child
perhaps rebuilt their entirerelationships as a result of
someone being obedient to thegospel?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I think that this is very, very powerful.
Well, lillian, what can you sayto people who have your country
on their heart And I know Idon't know how any Christian
would not have Egypt on theirheart?
because Egypt is so ingrainedinto the whole scripture story
(21:33):
of the nation of Israel and eventhe future prophecies
concerning Egypt and Isaiah,chapter 19.
It's the cradle of the nationof Israel.
Sometimes people don't quiteperceive Israel as a blessed
country, because I mean notIsrael, i'm talking about Egypt
as a blessed country becausethey look at it as the oppressor
(21:54):
of the nation of Israel.
But it's the pressure thatproduces beauty, in a diamond,
for example, and so if there wasno pressure on the nation of
Israel, they would have nevercome out to seek the promised
land.
And that's why I believe thatthe beautiful prophecy over
Egypt in Isaiah 19 shows how Godchose Egypt for a special
(22:18):
purpose and Egypt fulfilled thatpurpose And therefore the
nation will be rewarded, andthat's why there is a remnant
there now, but one day the wholenation of Egypt will be called
by God's name.
How do you sense thefulfillment of that prophecy in
your nation?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, what we do now as a ministry inside of Egypt
was between the churches is thatwe began, like what is said, to
be mobilizing.
We push the people tounderstand their role, to
understand that each one wascalled for an important role in
his life and he must fulfill it.
(22:57):
Plus to live as a missionary.
In everything you do, evengoing to your job, you are a
missionary there.
God puts you in that time, inthat place for a purpose.
It's not happen as a way.
So please be aware that you areliving testimony for Christ And
what we are now teaching is onmissionary work.
(23:18):
We have received manymissionaries for a long, long,
long time ago.
Now it's your role to continue.
We have been like as a fruit ofa church built on the blood of
martyrs, so it's our role tocontinue that and to go for us.
And if these people do not cometo evangelize for Egypt before,
(23:40):
no church will be today.
So what's your role as a churchnow in Egypt?
You are growing enough.
You should go yourself.
So what's that?
we are trying to teach thepeople about And, in fact,
people is beginning to opentheir minds and asking God for
their role, and we pray that Hewill continue His role in their
(24:03):
life so that they know the causeon their life and fulfill it
freely, whatever it might cost.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
See, to me, this is the sign of a healthy and mature
church, amen, The kind ofchurch that will withstand any
persecution, any challenges.
And every church in everycountry is going to face
persecution and trials.
This is our lot, this is ourcalling, actually, as Christians
(24:32):
, to have the same lot as ourSavior did.
We can't be better or abovethat, but what you described is
the sign of a church that isready, that is mature, that is
producing fruit.
And so, with that in mind, howwould you have the Christians
pray for your nation?
(24:53):
What are some of the prayerpoints that are important?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Pray for churches in Egypt to wake up more, and that
not only those who can reachwith the teachings, but the
teachings of knowing your calland fulfill it and live as a
missionary, overcome all thekinds of churches with all the
denominations here, so that eachone live his role.
(25:20):
I can't imagine what willhappen at that time if I don't
know our number because theykeep hiding, but at least we are
not that small in number Andthe Bible says that one will be
like 1,000 and two will beexceeding.
So I can't imagine if each onein Egypt lived his role and
(25:42):
fulfilled the call in his life.
It will be like a flood ofblessings overcoming not just
Egypt but all the countries, andthat's our dream.
So please pray that each onewill be aware of his calling and
fulfill it.
Praying for the missionary tripsthat we are about to make.
That's a very important part,especially in its beginning.
(26:05):
So we need that much of prayers, support our back and pray for
us for the attacks.
For sure It's not will be easy.
So pray for that and see yousoon.
That's it.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
I'm looking forward to it.
Thank you so much for thisconversation and many blessings
to you and Romani.
Thank you, dear.
What Lillian has shared abouther country is very applicable
to the church in every nation.
While some countries claimlarger population of Christians
than the others, true believerswill always be a minority, a
(26:39):
remnant reserved by God for theblessing of a nation.
If you consider yourself a partof the remnant in your own
country, be encouraged by whatwas accomplished through the
incredible show of unity amongthe Egyptian Christians when
their nation faced the threat offalling into an extremist
regime.
Sincere prayers and brotherlyunity not only move mountains,
(27:02):
they change the course ofhistory.
I encourage you to pray for thenation of Egypt following the
points mentioned by Lillian.
If God is stirring your heartfor this beautiful country,
consider joining our missionthere in November.
We still have a few spotsavailable on the team and if
you're wondering what you can doas a part of the team, i
(27:25):
encourage you to check ourwebsite, rfwaorg.
At World Missions Alliance, webelieve that changed lives
change lives.
If your life has been changedby Christ, you're equipped to
help someone else experience thesame.
Tune in to the next episode.
Next week you will hear from ayoung nurse who responded to
(27:48):
God's call to travel to Egyptlast November as a part of World
Missions Alliance team.
You will hear her incrediblestory of how Egypt surprised her
and how God used her past to dosomething very special.
Until next time, i'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If you want to see your lifetransformed by Christ's love, or
if you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving Christ through
short-term missionary work,check out our website, rfwaorg,
(28:27):
and find out how to get involved.
What if you had a guide who could tell you how to
bridge a gap between who you aretoday and who you are destined
to be?
What if, each week, you couldhear a story of someone who has
tried and succeeded, or perhapstried and failed but learned
something in the process?
Limitless Spirit is a weeklypodcast where host Helen Todd
interviews guests about topicsand personal stories on defining
(00:23):
life's purpose, pursuingpersonal growth and developing a
deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
In every nation, in every time, in every place, god
saves himself pure people andhonest people.
that keeps his kingdom tocontinue.
So, whenever it happens, somepeople still have that heart.
What's happening now that it'sexpanding, in fact, those
remnants still growing in number.
(00:49):
They like witnesses, withouteven speaking, they save the
country from a lot of bad issuesor bad histories that we were
going to.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Welcome to another awesome episode of the Limitless
Spirit podcast.
I'm your host, helen Todd, andtoday we are traveling to the
land of ancient wonders.
I'm joined by a friend fromCairo, lillian Mahir, who,
together with her husband, leadsfruit of life ministry in Cairo
(01:22):
, egypt.
We talk about the Coptic rootsof Egyptian Christianity, how
the all-night prayer of tens ofthousands of Egyptian Christians
on November 11, 2011 changedthe course of Egypt's history,
and what biblical prophecies sayabout the future of Egypt.
You will also find out how youcan pray for the future of the
(01:47):
Church in Egypt.
Hello, lillian, welcome to theLimitless Spirit podcast.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Hi Helen, i am fine, i miss you.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hi, miss.
You too.
You're joining us from Cairo,egypt.
What time is there?
right now It's quarter to sixpm, so you are in your evening
time.
We're still here in our morningtime in Missouri and, thank God
, with technology, we can carrythis conversation like we're
sitting together in a livingroom.
(02:17):
Yeah, that's great.
Still, our friendship dates nowback 20 years.
I think We met in Amman, jordan.
At the time you and yourhusband were still dating.
I think You weren't evenmarried yet and you were
students at the JordanianTheological Seminary.
And I just remember thisbeautiful young girl on fire for
(02:39):
Jesus, and what stuck in mymind.
I remember asking you how didyou get your name Lillian,
because it's not, in my view, atraditional Egyptian name and
you told me you were named aftera famous missionary that came
to Egypt.
So, with that in mind, i wantto ask you how did you become a
(03:01):
Christian, being born in Cairo?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Okay, first, we met when I was newly married.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh, newly married.
So I remember, yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
So when I came to the Lord while I was 17 years old,
i was invited to a youthconference at the time and then
I was from Coptic background.
What I felt strange is theirattitude towards Jesus.
they keep speaking with himlike a father, like a friend,
(03:32):
too close in fact.
So I remember nobody wasknowing what's happening inside
me, even me myself, but Iremember just praying like that
Okay, i don't know what's wrongwith these people around, but I
want to be like that.
So, and he heard that I neverknew that there's something
inside me that's happening.
(03:53):
But then I kept studying becauseI was in the last year of high
school, which is very importantyear here for entering the
college later.
So I kept studying and notfocusing on about anything.
After he allowed me to be movedfrom my city to go for
university in another closedcity, which was like depending
(04:13):
on him himself, like a father,as I called him.
I want to be like them.
And here it is, here he's myfather.
He took care of me very well atthat 40 years around.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So I think I made a mistake.
I said you were born in Cairo,but you weren't actually born in
Cairo.
No, i wasn't born in Cairo.
I was in Upper Egypt.
In Upper Egypt, and what wasthe city that you were born in?
Asyut, that's correct, and soyou mentioned that, and I think
I didn't even know that you camefrom a Coptic background.
(04:47):
So for our listeners who arenot familiar, maybe, with the
Coptic Church, can you give alittle overview of what Coptic
Church is, the ancient church inEgypt that dates many centuries
back to maybe the first centurychurch, and so it's very
fascinating, and so give ourlisteners a little overview on
(05:11):
what the Coptic Church is about.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
They are very strong in faith.
I mean, in the history Theysaved the tradition and the
Christianity in Egypt fordecades.
What persecution was happening.
But when I was born, you know,when you got a habit of having
Christianity, that was theattitudes during that time.
(05:33):
They keep going to church, butwithout a real, real relation
with Jesus.
They kept doing it like rituals, just like the Catholic Church.
It's the same, close to enoughfor each other.
They saved the pieces forsaints, They saved the times of
for fasting, but all thesethings to be done, Everything to
(05:55):
be built by heart.
So that was the problem.
So when I came to Christ that'swhat was the difference I felt
they have a good relationship,They can call him a father.
They kept calling him withoutany limitations of a friendship
or a fatherhood.
That was.
I was jealous at that time andI wanted that to be like that.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So we will come back to this subject later in the
conversation, but I don't knowif I shared with you or not, but
before we met you and Ramani,my exposure to Egypt happened
actually in Baghdad in Iraq, andso we met there a missionary,
and that was the early 2000s,when the war was going on there.
(06:41):
And so we went there during avery turbulent and crazy time as
missionaries, and so we metmissionaries only from two other
countries at that time.
One of them was South Korea andthe other one was an Egyptian.
So he was a missionary fromCairo who came to Baghdad to
(07:02):
proclaim the gospel, and Ithought there has to be
something happening in thisnation.
God must be moving, becausewhen a country, a church within
a country, starts sending outmissionaries, something is
happening there, and so thatalready put a seed in my heart
that I want to be where God ismoving.
And so then, meeting you andRamani was the next step, and
(07:25):
indeed God has done a lot inEgypt in the last two decades.
So let's talk a little bitabout that.
How would you describe what hashappened in the last 20 years
in Egypt?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Okay, in every nation and every time and every place
God saves himself, pure peopleand honest people.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
That keeps his kingdom to continue The remnant
that is called in the scriptures.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yes.
So, whenever it happens, somepeople still have that heart.
What's happening now that it'sexpanding, in fact, those
remnant still growing in number.
They like witness, without evenspeaking, they saved the
country from a lot of bad issuesor bad histories that we were
going to, i think, in spite ofbecause of the Christians here,
(08:15):
or the breivers in fact, egyptwas going to turning to similar
like all the countries around,but because of the prayers that
happened, especially during therevolution time, the church had
a unity that the three maindenominations here gathered
together in Mukhatam, as youremember, i saw I think you do
(08:36):
In the place, the wide placethat they have like a continue
whole prayer night together.
It was on the 11th, 11th of2011, a day not to be forgotten
for every Christian Egyptian.
So that day, i think, was likethe beginning to God's hands to
move in Egypt, to restore itfrom back a black, this destiny,
(08:59):
and that's what?
like a proclamation thatthere's God here and he saves
Egypt, he saves his country.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
And also it was like a witness for non Christians and
other countries around thatGod's here, he's here really,
this is a very powerful momentin the history of Christianity
in Egypt And I think it'simportant for the Christians
from other countries tounderstand this.
And I really want us to pausehere for a moment, because I
(09:30):
don't think it's known as muchoutside of Egypt.
So we have listeners tuninginto this podcast from all over
the world, so I want tohighlight this moment.
So 11, 11, 2011.
So the events that arehappening in Egypt at the time
for those who don't remember,maybe it's been 12 years ago So
(09:53):
what was happening in Egypt in2011 and the years surrounding
that?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
As you remember if someone remember that there was
the rule of Mubarak lasted foraround 30 years that people felt
that it will be turning like akingdom and he will inherit his
son later.
So they went for a revolutionagainst Mubarak to take him out
of the rule.
So they succeeded, butunfortunately or maybe
(10:22):
fortunately, i don't know Butduring that time the Brazilians
entered.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
During the revolution , and you're talking about the
Muslim Brotherhood right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yes, and made like a plot so that they can take the
role.
And it's really happened in2000 2013.
But the church during that timewas a very awake of what's
happening around and the dangersthat's coming.
So 11, 11, 2011 was like.
(10:51):
The minor state of prayerscontinued for the whole time
Till later we kicked thebrotherhoods, who overcome the
rule later.
By that way, it's what'shappening, as the country before
that time was dividedChristians and Muslims by the
prayers that showed thedisadvantages of the brotherhood
(11:15):
rule.
So even the Muslims went downfor them.
Second revolution Today is acelebration fact 13th June 2016,
.
To kick them off.
And we happened to be like aunity that when we went down the
streets for celebrations, i washugged tightly by another
veiled woman who do not know me,and so do I.
(11:39):
But because we get rid of them,we restored our country back.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
So it was a very powerful time that the church
made her role honest, this isnothing short of a miracle, and
the prayer that happened onNovember 11th of 2011 happened
at a very special place.
Again, i want to highlight theplace, mount Makatum because
unless a person visited Egyptand unless they had a very good
(12:07):
friend to take them there, theyprobably don't know that Mount
Makatum in Egypt, i think, iseven greater sight than the
pyramids, who everybody hasheard of, and it's the mountain
that was moved by the prayers ofChristians to prove to a Muslim
caliph that God is the true Godwho moves the mountains, and so
(12:32):
that was the miracle thathappened centuries and centuries
ago, but most recently.
I believe that it's also amiracle that Mount Makatum is in
the center of a garbage city,where the garbage collectors
live, and it's known as a dumpand slums for the longest time,
(12:52):
until a church was establishedthere in that community, a
Coptic church.
That is indeed the largestchurch building in the entire
Middle East.
It seats how many people Notsure about the number, because
it's very big.
I think it's 20,000.
I read somewhere in thebrochure that it's about 20,000
(13:14):
people and it's carved intoMount Makatum, into the miracle
mountain, and so this prayerthat changed the fate of Egypt
happened right there, i mean tome.
It makes me excited and in aweof God.
And how God, who says that Goddoesn't do miracles?
today?
right, it happened right beforeyour eyes.
(13:39):
Yes, it happened really So wereyou there at the church on that
day on November?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
11?
My kids were too young at thatage, but I watched it on the TV.
It was broadcast all the time,till the morning until 7am.
It began around 10pm and thenlasted till 7am next day.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
It's mind-boggling.
So the prayer of believers, whounited to pray for the fate of
their country, actually madethem united with the Muslim
people and prevented the countryof Egypt from falling under the
rule of the Muslim Brotherhood.
This is just a phenomenaltestimony of what a prayer of
(14:26):
believers can do to impact thecountry.
Thank you for reminding me ofthis story, because this just
makes me excited all over again.
So now it has been 12 yearssince then, so how do you feel
this affected what is happeningin the church today?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, in fact there are lots of people from not our
background who are coming toJesus a lot.
Also, we do not face like beingsuch persecuted as before.
Yes, it's still persecuted, butnot that much.
Not many people hate us for noreason as before, but some minor
(15:06):
personal issues, but not forthe whole as before.
So it's getting better.
The relationship between thetwo in Egypt, muslims and
Christians, also the unity thatbegins with the denominations.
At the time it continued.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Now you said there were three denominations.
Can you tell me what threedenominations were?
The Coptic?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Catholic and Evangelical And under the
evangelical.
For sure, there are a lot underthe evangelical, but we name it
here.
The three is the mainevangelical church.
It holds the needs, thereformation, baptism, whatever
that under the evangelicalchurch.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
This is such a testimony of what a unity
between believers can accomplish.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Later, one of the Coptic priests that was in 2011,
2011, had passed away last year, in March I think And his
funeral was like a testimonyitself.
It was like all thedenominations were there crying
for his departure, for Jesus,but also they were giving a
(16:18):
message that what he began withthe evangelical church because
they were in enemies as before,but not no longer They accept
each other.
They're trying to find whatthey are agreeing with more than
what we do not agree with, Sothat's a good point.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Praise God, praise God.
Well, world Missions Alliancehas been coming to Egypt for
these last 20 years and we hadto make a pause while there was
revolution happening and we werenot even allowed to.
I remember having a layover,actually in Cairo, right in the
(16:57):
midst of your revolution, andyou and Romani graciously took
me around the city, so I got towitness history.
I feel very, very privileged tohave been there during that
moment, but for the most part,we've come to Egypt on a regular
basis.
So well, what do you think?
what kind of impact do youthink our teams have made
(17:18):
through these years?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
First, before to speak about, I want to remind
you of taking photos with thetanks at that time.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
The tanks that were painted in gold.
That was the most impressivememory.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
One of the army soldiers, so you were part of it
, right.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I was.
That was a big privilege and itwas only thanks to you, because
they didn't want to let meoutside of the airport.
So if you didn't come and getme, i was touring Cairo without
a passport, actually, becausethey took away my passport.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Okay about all the national lines.
They have really come in a lotof years from ago and they
helped us very much.
In our ministry We go fororphanage.
Young kids feel the love thatthey feel that God sent tourists
or foreigners for them to tellthem that God loves them and
(18:21):
they were able to spread on themany candy, any toy.
They felt that they are special.
God sent people from very, veryfar away for them.
That's a remarkable issue.
Also, when we began to gotogether for the deaf and
speechless people, that wasamazing.
(18:43):
If you remember Tracy from thelast trip, she felt that she had
to speak with one of the momswho had really a problem of
accepting or treating her childwho was disabled.
He is not hearing well orspeaking well.
So she shared her testimonythat when she was young she had,
(19:04):
like she can't hear with one ofher ears and that affected her
badly when she was young andthen how she overcome it And she
began to speak with her.
If you treat with him normallyand do not differentiate between
him and his brothers, he willbe normally.
He just reacts with differentways.
(19:25):
So please look at him as normal, do not treat him as disabled,
and he will be normal.
Just the way of contacting isdifferent.
That's all, and the lady wasvery encouraged Me myself was
translating at the time.
I was very excited with what sheshared.
She did a lot of great jobs atthe time.
Also, when we shared themessage with the refugees.
(19:50):
That's very, very importantthing for us.
So World Mission Alliance wassharing and all of that.
She helped us a lot.
She opened the doors for whenforeigners come, they accept
more of us to come.
So she opened a lot for us todo and, minister, and continue,
minister here in Egypt.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Praise God, praise God.
This is wonderful to hear AndI'm thinking of this child that
hopefully, what Tracy sharedwith this child's mom maybe
changed the future for that kid.
And this is so much like God.
He can send a person from faraway just to make you feel
(20:30):
special, and sometimes this isall we need The affirmation
affirmation from God that we arespecial.
And so I think this is thebeauty of the Great Commission.
Sometimes we feel like I can'tchange the big problems that are
happening in the country.
(20:51):
I'm just one person,insignificant and limited in
power.
But how much beauty is in thefact that a mom and a child
perhaps rebuilt their entirerelationships as a result of
someone being obedient to thegospel?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I think that this is very, very powerful.
Well, lillian, what can you sayto people who have your country
on their heart And I know Idon't know how any Christian
would not have Egypt on theirheart?
because Egypt is so ingrainedinto the whole scripture story
(21:33):
of the nation of Israel and eventhe future prophecies
concerning Egypt and Isaiah,chapter 19.
It's the cradle of the nationof Israel.
Sometimes people don't quiteperceive Israel as a blessed
country, because I mean notIsrael, i'm talking about Egypt
as a blessed country becausethey look at it as the oppressor
(21:54):
of the nation of Israel.
But it's the pressure thatproduces beauty, in a diamond,
for example, and so if there wasno pressure on the nation of
Israel, they would have nevercome out to seek the promised
land.
And that's why I believe thatthe beautiful prophecy over
Egypt in Isaiah 19 shows how Godchose Egypt for a special
(22:18):
purpose and Egypt fulfilled thatpurpose And therefore the
nation will be rewarded, andthat's why there is a remnant
there now, but one day the wholenation of Egypt will be called
by God's name.
How do you sense thefulfillment of that prophecy in
your nation?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, what we do now as a ministry inside of Egypt
was between the churches is thatwe began, like what is said, to
be mobilizing.
We push the people tounderstand their role, to
understand that each one wascalled for an important role in
his life and he must fulfill it.
(22:57):
Plus to live as a missionary.
In everything you do, evengoing to your job, you are a
missionary there.
God puts you in that time, inthat place for a purpose.
It's not happen as a way.
So please be aware that you areliving testimony for Christ And
what we are now teaching is onmissionary work.
(23:18):
We have received manymissionaries for a long, long,
long time ago.
Now it's your role to continue.
We have been like as a fruit ofa church built on the blood of
martyrs, so it's our role tocontinue that and to go for us.
And if these people do not cometo evangelize for Egypt before,
(23:40):
no church will be today.
So what's your role as a churchnow in Egypt?
You are growing enough.
You should go yourself.
So what's that?
we are trying to teach thepeople about And, in fact,
people is beginning to opentheir minds and asking God for
their role, and we pray that Hewill continue His role in their
(24:03):
life so that they know the causeon their life and fulfill it
freely, whatever it might cost.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
See, to me, this is the sign of a healthy and mature
church, amen, The kind ofchurch that will withstand any
persecution, any challenges.
And every church in everycountry is going to face
persecution and trials.
This is our lot, this is ourcalling, actually, as Christians
(24:32):
, to have the same lot as ourSavior did.
We can't be better or abovethat, but what you described is
the sign of a church that isready, that is mature, that is
producing fruit.
And so, with that in mind, howwould you have the Christians
pray for your nation?
(24:53):
What are some of the prayerpoints that are important?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Pray for churches in Egypt to wake up more, and that
not only those who can reachwith the teachings, but the
teachings of knowing your calland fulfill it and live as a
missionary, overcome all thekinds of churches with all the
denominations here, so that eachone live his role.
(25:20):
I can't imagine what willhappen at that time if I don't
know our number because theykeep hiding, but at least we are
not that small in number Andthe Bible says that one will be
like 1,000 and two will beexceeding.
So I can't imagine if each onein Egypt lived his role and
(25:42):
fulfilled the call in his life.
It will be like a flood ofblessings overcoming not just
Egypt but all the countries, andthat's our dream.
So please pray that each onewill be aware of his calling and
fulfill it.
Praying for the missionary tripsthat we are about to make.
That's a very important part,especially in its beginning.
(26:05):
So we need that much of prayers, support our back and pray for
us for the attacks.
For sure It's not will be easy.
So pray for that and see yousoon.
That's it.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
I'm looking forward to it.
Thank you so much for thisconversation and many blessings
to you and Romani.
Thank you, dear.
What Lillian has shared abouther country is very applicable
to the church in every nation.
While some countries claimlarger population of Christians
than the others, true believerswill always be a minority, a
(26:39):
remnant reserved by God for theblessing of a nation.
If you consider yourself a partof the remnant in your own
country, be encouraged by whatwas accomplished through the
incredible show of unity amongthe Egyptian Christians when
their nation faced the threat offalling into an extremist
regime.
Sincere prayers and brotherlyunity not only move mountains,
(27:02):
they change the course ofhistory.
I encourage you to pray for thenation of Egypt following the
points mentioned by Lillian.
If God is stirring your heartfor this beautiful country,
consider joining our missionthere in November.
We still have a few spotsavailable on the team and if
you're wondering what you can doas a part of the team, i
(27:25):
encourage you to check ourwebsite, rfwaorg.
At World Missions Alliance, webelieve that changed lives
change lives.
If your life has been changedby Christ, you're equipped to
help someone else experience thesame.
Tune in to the next episode.
Next week you will hear from ayoung nurse who responded to
(27:48):
God's call to travel to Egyptlast November as a part of World
Missions Alliance team.
You will hear her incrediblestory of how Egypt surprised her
and how God used her past to dosomething very special.
Until next time, i'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If you want to see your lifetransformed by Christ's love, or
if you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving Christ through
short-term missionary work,check out our website, rfwaorg,
(28:27):
and find out how to get involved.
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