November 27, 2024 • 37 mins
Dr. Todd Bowman discusses his unique approach to treating sexual addiction, blending faith and science.
A notable figure in the realm of Christian psychology, Dr. Bowman joins us to unpack the complex and often concealed issue of sexual addiction within faith communities. Are you aware that over 60% of Christian men and a striking number of women are affected by pornography addiction? In our conversation, Dr. Bowman, with insights drawn from his book "Reclaiming Sexual Wholeness," shares his nuanced understanding of the root causes of sexual addiction, including trauma, abuse, and unhealthy communication patterns. We dissect the distinction between addiction and occasional temptations, emphasizing the need for open dialogue both in families and faith communities.
Dr. Todd Bowman's website: https://www.allelonintensives.com/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit.
Today we're diving into a topicthat is real, raw and maybe a
little uncomfortable, but soimportant.
We're talking about sexualaddiction.
You might not think it'ssomething that affects people in
the church, but the numberstell a different story.
Did you know that over 60% ofChristian men, and even 15% of
(00:41):
Christian women, say they havestruggled with pornography?
This isn't just a them problem,it's a we problem, and it's
impacting lives, marriages andcommunities in ways we often
don't talk about, at least notenough.
Within the church, 62% ofevangelical men and 37% of
(01:04):
pastors admit to struggling withpornography.
These numbers highlight apressing issue that demands our
attention and compassion.
That's why I'm excited to haveDr Todd Bowman with us today.
He's the author of a bookcalled Reclaiming Sexual
Wholeness, and he's here to helpus understand what's really
(01:29):
going on, why it happens and howwe can find healing, personally
and as a church.
Whether this is a battle you'refacing, something someone you
love is dealing with, or you'rejust wondering how to help
others stick around, thisconversation is packed with hope
and real-life solutions.
(01:50):
Good morning, todd.
Welcome to the Limitless Spirit.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Good morning.
I am excited to be here.
It's just a fantasticopportunity to talk about
something I think incrediblyrelevant, not just in the US but
around the world.
I know the work that I've doneon an international stage just
continues to reinforce howimportant this topic is.
I'm super thankful to be herewith you, to be able to unpack
it and talk about it today.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wonderful.
Well, let's talk about youfirst.
So what inspired you to focusspecifically on the topic of
sexual addiction and write thebook Reclaiming Sexual Wholeness
?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, that is a big story.
I'll summarize it by sayingreally it's a story of kind of
unexpected calling and theLord's faithfulness, not really
a topic that I ever set out tospecialize in or do much with as
a clinician or as an educatoror as an author or do much with
as a clinician or as an educatoror as an author.
And yet kind of when I was ayoung professional, I was in
(02:48):
supervision.
I was a young faculty memberactually and under the
supervision to get my clinicallicense to kind of continue
being a faculty person.
And I had a department chairactually who had a thriving
practice, had an overload ofclients and I needed to get
licensed, so it took to clientsand kind of like under his
(03:09):
tutelage.
And then I had a chance toconnect with Mark Laser from
Faithful and True while he wasstill with us and under his
tutelage, and then kind of justthe Lord faithfully kind of
opened doors and, if anything, Istrive to really just be
obedient.
That doesn't mean it's come likeeasy or seamlessly.
There's been a lot of kind of Idon't know Garden of Gethsemane
(03:32):
moments, kind of just reachingmy own limits and saying Lord
like take the cup, like this ishard work.
This is overwhelming work.
It's a lot of dealing withpeople's traumas and their pain
and their brokenness and theirsuffering and trying to
alleviate a lot of that distress.
And it's also a story not justof obedience but really the
Lord's faithfulness and you knowHis grace is sufficient and
(03:53):
that's response in these hardmoments.
Kind of that's the Lord'sresponse.
He has always been my grace issufficient for you and my power
is made perfect in weakness.
It's really I'm just a guytrying to be a Christian
educator at a graduatecounseling level and here I'm on
this incredible adventure withthe Lord and just bear witness
to his faithfulness, thatsometimes even the things that
(04:15):
we don't know, that we can doand can't do in our own power, I
think my life, my professionalwork to date, is really just a
story of like with God.
All things are possible andit's really about just learning
to be obedient, to be humble, tosubmit and to trust.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Amen to that and, frankly, most of our callings
happen in that certain way.
You know, I guess I wasexpecting a dramatic story or
something to hear about, but, tobe honest, I didn't realize how
prevalent sexual addiction isuntil I was reading statistics
(04:56):
and I remember now, where I sawit, the numbers that 70% of men
between the age of 18 and 30 areengaged in watching pornography
on a regular basis and youprobably have even more
statistics on that.
So that's huge numbers.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, I think it speaks to me.
It's always been a problem.
I mean you look at the sexualrevolution and kind of some of
the sexualization of theimagination in Western culture.
That's not to say it's not anissue in Africa or in Asia and
other places, but kind of morefrom a Western context.
The proliferation ofpornography in particular really
coincides with the sexualrevolution.
(05:35):
It's kind of like there'salready a bonfire going and just
imagine somebody throwing Idon't know like a gallon of
kerosene into the middle of abonfire.
Really, how I see kind of theimpact of technology 2005, 2006,
2007,.
With all of a sudden it was notjust a cell phone but it was a
supercomputer that we startedcarrying around in our pockets
(05:56):
and the accessibility that'sthere, the secrecy and privacy
that's afforded in those spacesreally again was kind of that
gasoline onto a fire that wasalready burning.
So that statistic I mean that'sthe reported statistic you have
to maybe look at the shamedynamic of how many people have
had that experience.
They're struggling.
Pornography is pretty predatory.
(06:17):
It's always on the prowl.
It's always looking to insertitself into our lives in the
modern age.
I mean from like fake accountson social media to spam and
inboxes, to even pop-ups andpopulating places that we tend
to not think about.
As I'm getting old, but assomebody who's a little bit
older, like I've got three boysand even some of the pop-ups
(06:40):
that show up on their video gamesystems and consoles that are
just their paid advertisementsby people who have nefarious
intent when it comes to thecontent that they're trying to
get my boys to click on.
So pornography is very predatoryin how it inserts itself and is
constantly looking for opendoors, open windows, any way to
(07:00):
access our lives, and sometimesin unexpected ways.
And I think that's where a lotof folks get tripped up.
And you look at even thatdemographic that you mentioned,
kind of teenagers up to 30,there's kind of a digital
nativeness in that space ofthey've just grown up with that
technology provided by theschools, provided by parents,
and then there's almost just animplicit trust of things that
(07:22):
are happening online andunfortunately, that trust gets
abused by my folks who have areally ill intent with regard to
the types of content they'retrying to get young people,
especially the average agecontinuing to decrease with
pornography exposure, they'retrying to get those hooks in at
younger and younger ages eight,nine, 10 years old.
When kids just have so much lessawareness, they're more
(07:44):
inclined to like shame andnegative response.
They're not going to tellanybody what they've seen and
kind of.
The longer it can grow insecrecy, the deeper the roots of
the struggle are going to go.
There's some pretty goodresearch that says if we can
protect kids till age 15 or 16from that exposure, it decreases
the probability of them havinga struggle or an addiction with
pornography until until again 15or 16, like by 80% like it
(08:11):
decreases their probability ofhaving a longer term struggle by
about 80%.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So so let's help define the problem for our
listeners, most of whom are notpsychologists and maybe not even
pastors.
But how would you explain inlayman terms?
How does sexual addictiondiffer from occasional struggles
with lust or temptation?
(08:35):
Lust or temptation.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to remember that, like
our sexual systems and I'llstart with the brain as someone
who's kind of a neurosciencegeek our sexual systems driven
by hormones, driven by memories,bodily sensations, like
remembering that like oursexuality really is a good gift
from God, right, and living in afallen world.
Like there are times when thosestruggles, those temptations,
(08:56):
right, scripture says like notemptation has overcome you
except what's common to man.
So, honoring the reality, paul,you know in writing, would use
the word soma, like the goodnessof the body, the goodness of
God's design for the human body,and then he would contrast that
with this idea of sarx.
Right, like the sinful desiresof the flesh.
Sometimes that like sinfuldesire shows up again to your
(09:17):
point, intermittently, it's kindof situational, it's triggered
by something a bit more acutelyversus a longer term struggle,
something where I mentioned theidea of hooks, like those hooks
got in deep and they got inearly.
So that tends to be a story oflots of wounds, right, like when
we struggle with maybe lust ortemptation, there's not as much
(09:38):
of a hook.
Again, obviously the enemy ofour souls desires to drag us
away and entice us and pull usinto maybe deeper struggles,
shame, secrecy, become twodrivers of that.
But sex addiction, pornographyaddiction, really is driven by
pretty deep and unresolvedwounds.
By pretty deep and unresolvedwounds could be abuses of
different sorts physical abuse,emotional abuse, sexual abuse
(10:02):
paired with maybe justdysfunctional family dynamics
really rigid, cold, unempathicparents, sometimes it's really
loose environments or morepermissive styles of parenting
where there were no boundaries.
Oftentimes it's kind of avacillation between those two.
So a family system or sometimeseven a church system, a
(10:22):
spiritual system where there'sreally rigid demand and
expectation for conformity butnot a whole lot of support, not
a whole lot of like actualsubstance when it comes to
helping, in this case, young men, young women kind of navigate
the trials and temptations ofthe world sexually.
And I think the proliferationof technology has kind of
(10:43):
created this generational gapwhere again I've got three boys,
two teenagers and a 10-year-oldwho's going on 21, trying to
keep up with the older two andjust looking at their
understanding of technology I'mold, but I'm not that old their
ability to just problem solveand figure it out, which is
really good for the future asfar as their careers, their
(11:05):
professions, their ability touse technology pretty seamlessly
.
But at the same time it kind ofgives them a leg up on being
able to create spaces in theironline world that I don't have
access to, my wife and I don'tknow anything about.
So it really enforces us intothat space of communication and
relationality.
I wrote in a book years agoAngry Birds and Killer Bees.
(11:26):
Talking to your kids about sex,kind of this veil of shame and
secrecy and silence really shame, secrecy, silence, kind of
being a driver and sometimeswe're afraid in the church to
talk to our kids about sexshroud because we have this fear
, this mythology.
Kind of see it around the topicof suicide as well.
Like if we teach our kids aboutthis, they're going to be
(11:48):
inclined to go and explore itand then they'll be exposed to
the bad things that I don't wantto expose them to.
So if I just stay silent aboutit and don't inform them, don't
shape their imaginations aroundsexual things, like, then they
won't have any struggles.
And the reality is like in themodern world, like porn is
looking for our kids.
Like I told you, it's predatory.
So, thinking about what we'renot serving our kids well when
(12:09):
we're not really forming healthyunderstandings of sexuality,
when we're avoiding those sextalks I always encourage parents
to kind of establish themselvesas the expert or authority,
because if we don't, googlewould be happy to Pornhub would
be happy to establish themselvesas the expert that our kids go
to.
So I think it's a combination ofthings as far as what drives
(12:31):
this, but it's a lot of wounds.
It's kind of driven by rigidand kind of disengaged or
chaotic environments, a lot ofomission, like things that we're
not instructing or teaching ourkids, and if we do, we'll kind
of say, like you know, don'thave sex before you're married,
which is really rigid anddisengaged.
Right, there's not a lot ofrelational formation or
imagination around.
What's the nature of sexuality?
(12:52):
What are the body parts Like,how do they work?
Are they good or are they likeshameful?
So when there's a story ofthose kind of really I would say
really essential dynamics,psychologically and relationally
, that are absent and like itjust leaves a barren patch where
I think you know addictivebehavior of any sort, but
especially in our hypersexualculture, that sexual struggle
(13:15):
takes root and grows really deeproots and then over time it's
much harder to root out.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Speaking about the church's role.
So why do you think the churchoften struggles to talk openly
about sexual addiction, and howdoes the silence affect people
in the pews who are strugglingwith that?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think I would love to see a scenario
wherein every church around theworld had some type of ministry
to addiction.
All addiction right Could be.
There's a number you know puredesire.
There's other 12-step processesthat exist, numerous of them
that exist, that churches haveonboarded and are using to great
(13:54):
effect.
Sometimes it's this idea of,sometimes the church doesn't
want to intrude too much intopeople's lives.
Scripture's there.
Scripture clearly puts someboundaries, parameters around
sexuality, what's healthy,what's not healthy.
But we don't want to scandalize.
I've had people walk out ofsermons when I'm preaching on
the issue of pornography.
(14:15):
So I think pastors see that andthere's just a fear of this is
a hot topic that we don't wantto touch.
If we can just kind of get bywith, like, indirectly
addressing it, then indirectlyaddress it and hope that that's
good enough.
But again, pure desire,celebrate recovery and other
12-step process.
I would love to see a placewhere, even if it's not directly
(14:36):
from the pulpit, like there'san adjacent ministry that's
purposefully there, that in thecontext of somebody identifying
a struggle, in the context ofspiritual direction or pastoral
counsel or discipleship, that weunderstand the reality of human
struggles actually in themodern world.
And like here at the church, wehave a place where you can go
(14:58):
and walk with people who areexperiencing a similar struggle.
Right, scripture says ironsharpens iron.
And like that idea of like howdo we go and allow ourselves to
be sharpened?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And it seems like in theory that's beautiful.
But one of the marks of sexualaddiction is shame, tremendous
shame that that person isexperiencing.
So even if there is a groupdedicated to people who overcome
that, for a person just to beable to admit on a public level
(15:33):
that they're struggling withthat is very hard because of the
issue of shame.
So how does your book helpChristians to move past shame
into healing?
Because that's, I think, is thefirst step on the path to
recovery.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah, kind of.
You know, breaking throughdenial means kind of having to
tell the truth to ourselvesabout ourselves and the first
thing, you're right, that we'regoing to encounter in that space
is having to deal with theshame.
You know that the idea to youknow, genesis chapter three
talks about they coveredthemselves and they hid.
And I think that's exactly thepsychological, relational and
spiritual function of shame aswe cover ourselves and we hide,
(16:10):
not realizing that like the Lordcomes and he is with us, he's
omniscient, he's omnipresent,like he knows we're in shame, we
think we're covering ourselvesin hiding and like somehow
keeping something from him.
Maybe it's more like apsychological and sociological
endeavor and shame, but I thinkit's so true that that's the
kind of first place to have tolean in with shame.
Specifically, I asked about thebook a buddy of mine, kurt
(16:32):
Thompson.
He's a psychiatrist that is inthe greater Washington DC area,
incredible thinker.
He's got numerous books.
He's just such a gift to theChristian psychology world with
everything from Anatomy of theSoul to the Deepest Place, a
book about suffering and others.
I could go on and on about.
He's just incredible.
He wrote a chapter.
He's a contributing author inthis text.
(16:53):
So I was privileged to be thecontributing author, wrote a
number of chapters with goodfriends and colleagues, but also
had kind of an unexpectednetwork of people who have
become dear friends over theyears professionally personally,
kurt Thompson being one ofthose.
So his chapter is justunbelievable from a neuroscience
perspective.
Kind of distilled down intopractical application, it's
(17:14):
really about overcoming shamewith vulnerability and kind of
this thesis that taking the riskto vulnerate ourselves really
is the antidote to shame.
To lean in to think about theidea of entrust, like how do I
take the risk to entrust myself?
We see this a lot kind of morenatively in human development,
(17:36):
where you look at children rightLike I remember my boys would,
like you know sometimesunexpectedly like run and take a
flying leap, like justexpecting that I was going to
catch them as they jumped offthe couch or jumped off the
rocks or the swing set orsomeplace.
So this idea that kind of whatwe're created to entrust
ourselves.
Right, relationally I couldbore you with the neuroscience
what that looks like, but Ithink obviously, theologically,
(17:59):
we're created to entrustourselves to the Lord and I
think that's what shame does.
Is it really like creates anarrative in our minds, our
beliefs about ourself, thatwe're somehow so deficient and
so defective that we're beyondthe reach of grace, we're beyond
the risk of getting back to thegood that we're created with,
(18:20):
of of entrusting ourselves, liketo say, like I'm going to
vulnerable myself and I'm goingto like jump into this space,
like believing that, thatthere's going to be people here
that are going to catch me.
And I think that's the power ofthese groups is that it's not
just one person.
And as a therapist, as apsychologist like, I think
therapy is great, it's impactful, it's the deep dive into a lot
(18:41):
of the wounds, a lot of thetraumas.
It's so important.
But I can't can't overstate theimpact of recovery groups,
12-step work and celebraterecovery, pure desire, others
around the country where reallyit's that place to be caught.
If we're struggling, it's hard.
I mean shame, everything aboutus.
If we even looked at shame, itcomes online early, it's
(19:04):
obviously intense.
But I think one of the thingsthat we forget about shame is
that the longer we persist in it, the more reflexive it becomes.
And I think it takes animmensity of courage to say I'm
going to override this reflexthat's been conditioned by years
of secrecy, years of struggle,years of reinforcing the belief
that I'm somehow bad orunlovable or deficient or
defective in some way.
(19:25):
But let's really throw ourselvesand entrust ourselves to mercy,
not just the Lord's mercy, butthe fact that men and women in
these groups who are walking outstories of healing like really
are grace in the flesh, likethey're agents of mercy who are
there to help do the hard workof exploring story and providing
accountability and beingpresent and holding us in our
(19:49):
Christian spirit andbrokenhearted, and it's powerful
spirit and brokenhearted andit's powerful.
I mean, if anybody's spent timein these spaces, it's just
incredibly powerful to see thehealing and redemption that
happens.
But it starts with, to yourpoint, like recognizing our
shame and taking that risk andvulnerability to entrust
ourselves to others who we don'tknow.
(20:11):
But we have to choose tobelieve that the Lord can and is
using them for our good andthat in that vulnerability
they'll meet us with mercy, withtenderness, with grace and help
lead us, help disciple us, tothat place of healing and
restoration.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So your title talks about sexual wholeness.
So what is sexual wholeness,and is it different from just
overcoming the addiction?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think one of the moreoverlooked dimensions of sex
addiction recovery is not justthe like, how do we create
programs and interventions tohelp facilitate the cessation of
the struggle?
I would say, you know, that'ssobriety, right, like how do I
stop doing the thing I don'twant to do?
And it's kind of like the romanchapter 7 deal here right, the
(20:59):
good I want to do, I can't do,the evil I don't want to do, I
can't stop doing.
Like who will rescue me fromthis body of death?
Right, like, it's so profound,because that's the struggle of
any person I've worked with inmy 17 year career with any type
of addiction.
But but the idea is it doesn'tjust stop at like, oh good, like
now I can stop doing the thingI don't want to do.
Like now I'm healed.
Hallelujah, praise God.
(21:19):
I would say like that's justsobriety, and sobriety is a
necessity in this process ofrecovery.
You know, recovery insinuateslike we're putting things back
to the good.
We're putting things back tothe way they were created or
ordained.
Things back to the good.
We're putting things back tothe way they were created or
ordained.
So I think the Hebrew word herewould be shalem peace, how we
(21:39):
would translate that when Paulis using this construct, he's
not just talking about peacelike the absence of conflict or
internal turmoil.
He's really talking about thisnotion of shalem, the root for
shalom, meaning the peace thatcomes from things being restored
back to the whole.
So when I think about reclaimingsexual wholeness, it's not just
(22:00):
the cessation of theproblematic behavior, it's
really this work of grace, thiswork of healing, this work of
redemption, hard work of tillingthe soil of our hearts and
going back to the traumas, goingback to the wounds, telling the
truth about relational dynamicsor family dynamics that can be
sometimes hard to deal with andto navigate.
You know, honor thy mother andfather, except for, like a lot
(22:23):
of folks believe, kind ofanswering your previous question
.
You know, sometimes the reasonwe can't talk about this in the
church is because we have totake a hard look at like.
Are there ways as parents?
I'm a dad of three boys.
Boys are the ways in which I'vecontributed to any of my son's
struggles right, like a littlebit early to tell right, but
like the answer is probably,like probably, and doing the
(22:44):
hard work of taking out.
Yeah, we all do right, like I'mnot trying to beat myself up or
be hard on any other parent, butlike it's just part of living
in this fallen world and lookingat like, oh, like, did the
things that happened when I wasyoung create a space where I
didn't want to talk about this?
Maybe my story is different,right, because I'm like the.
We talked about this all thetime.
From the time they were two, wewere talking about body parts,
(23:05):
and then, by the time they wereseven or eight, we had like the
full on, like here's, here's how, the whole thing of human
sexuality, or like.
I don't know if that's going tobe helpful or hindering for
them until I'm like.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
That reminded me of the experience we had.
We have two sons too, andthey're nine years apart.
And so, because you know, thegeneration has changed in nine
years and I was super nervousabout, you know, having this
conversation with our youngestson soon enough before he's
(23:37):
exposed to it in a negative way,you know, from his peers and
the school environment.
So I had my husband, you know,do this because he's the dad,
and my son later told him dad,that was just too soon you
started this company and he waslike six or seven, you know, but
(23:58):
I think that's part of it right, like part of this is getting
in front of culture and back tothe idea of sexual wholeness,
like that's part of it.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Like part of sexual wholeness is about like
restoring things that have beennegatively impacted by sin, by
the broken world we live in,restoring those back to the good
.
But I think a part of it too islike how do we protect that
wholeness, like how do we keepthings whole without having to
go to the full measure ofbrokenness?
And that's part of this too.
(24:24):
So reclaiming sexual wholenessdynamic really is about how do
we look at not just thecessation of problematic
behavior, but how do we do theunderlying work of helping heal
the pain of trauma, thedifferent pain of wounds that
have happened, maybe wounds ofomission I used that word
earlier wounds of rejection,wounds of abandonment in
different situations.
(24:45):
But then some of that work myexperience in 17 years is maybe
the most glaring absence in alot of recovery work is what
does it look like then to help acouple who's been through this
story of betrayal, trauma andsex addiction kind of then come
to cultivate an experience intheir own marriage?
There's not just a kind of arepetition or a borrowing from
(25:09):
the distorted things of a worldthat populates that space.
What does it look like to helpthem maybe prioritize kind of
spiritual intimacy and emotionalintimacy and then the physical
marital act is like emanatesfrom that?
So sex is not just like thisdisembodied thing, like we're
going to be spiritual intimate,go to church together, but like
then our physical intimacy right, it's kind of like just a
(25:31):
physical dimension.
I think that wholeness piece isabout the reintegration, the
restoration of all thosedimensions of how we're created
into a coherent whole and intoyour previous question and
comment about shame.
Shame is very disintegrated.
It literally like keeps thingsin secret, it creates
compartments in us, whereas Ithink the work of reintegration,
sexual wholeness, is reallyabout how do we take all those
(25:53):
dimensions of how we're createdin God's image and reintegrate,
reconnect those and live in thefullness of that, rather than
living in thecompartmentalization, the
disintegration that sin alwaysfacilitates in our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
In your approach you talk about the connection
between trauma and addiction.
So can you share how pastwounds can drive that addictive
behavior and how healing thosewounds can lead to freedom?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah, so a lot of great neuroscience, a lot of
great kind of psychologicalscience on the impact of trauma.
What it does to usneurologically kind of activates
our stress response system, oursympathetic nervous system,
kind of leaves it on full borelooking for threat, looking for
danger, and then kind of theneuroaffective model that you'll
find in reclaiming sexualillness in those early chapters
(26:44):
that I've been on since I thinkabout 2009.
So I must be getting old ifI've been working on the same
model for the past 15 years.
But it looks at that idea ofemotional regulation and how so
much of the neurochemistry ofaddiction and the neurochemistry
of sexuality kind of fittogether like hand in glove.
They kind of amplify oneanother so that the power of
(27:07):
kind of sexual neurobiology,both from an anticipatory
perspective but also from kindof a realized I would call it
consummatory.
So I just even thinking aboutsex living in sexual fantasy
like starts a dopamine drip, itstarts an opioid drip.
Same thing with the idea ofkind of consummatory experience,
right Like orgasm or sexualexperience, also coincides with
(27:31):
very powerful neurochemicalprocesses.
And I think what we see withtrauma is especially for sexual
trauma but even other trauma wesee this idea of the power of
our sexual neurobiology veryquickly being leveraged to help
soothe the distress ofpost-traumatic stress, of
(27:54):
post-traumatic stress, and inthe hand and glove right, it's
kind of the the most intensedimension Our neurobiology has
again like intended fordifferent reasons, right, I
would say the intensity of thatis really there to be a door
opener for bonding If we want tolook at the neurochemistry of
sexuality and God's design.
But I think it's a.
It's an abuse of that, adistortion of that, maybe better
(28:15):
said than abuse, a distortedutilization of our sexual
neurobiology.
But it's effective and that'sthe hard part is because it's so
effective and because there'sso much intensity of distress.
We see, with people who haveendured trauma, like the
intensity of that sexualneurobiology kind of like very
quickly becomes the priority,the go-to mechanism for
(28:37):
down-regulating and escapingsome of the distress
psychologically, but evenphysiologically as well.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So for those of our listeners who struggle, maybe,
with sexual addiction, or ourfamily members of people who
struggle with sexual addiction,what advice do you have, what
hope can you offer and maybesome of the practical steps that
they can take towards recovery?
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, I think you know, sometimes it's hard to
help.
If you're a lay person, ifyou're a family member, it's
hard to even know how to broachthe topic.
But I think what's true is mostof us, most of us in the world,
by way of technology, by way ofwhere we're at in the modern
age, have a porn story, right.
Have a exposure to pornographywhen I was six years old.
(29:24):
Have a right like found a VHStape when I was 11, have a you
know, clicked on the wrong linkor I typed in pokemoncom, which
used to be pornographic websitebefore it was purchased back.
Right, like some incidental,accidental exposure.
So I think leading with thatspace of empathy so important.
But like it starts with justbeing willing to have a
(29:45):
conversation hey, I'm concernedabout you If it's for our kids,
right.
Like remembering that we're theparents and being able to lead
from that place of like ratherthan punishment.
We're leading from a place ofcare, like we might have to draw
some different boundaries, wemight have to remove some
technology, but really, like myjob as a parent is like the
wellbeing of my child's soul andnurturing them in the faith,
like embodying godliness to them, anchoring myself in the word
(30:08):
and anchoring them in the word,helping them anchor themselves
in the word Right.
So like thinking about yeah,this is hard but like, my care
and love for this person isgreater than like yeah, like
they might dismiss me, theymight be angry with me, but it's
about planting seeds and Ithink being able to like pray
obviously prayer, I think is ahuge one like trusting that the
Lord is going to providelanguage, provide insight.
(30:30):
Sometimes it's provide theright timing around these things
, but I think just leading with,with concern, but also being
able to demonstrate that we'reconnected to our own story and
have our own place where werealize like yeah, but for the
grace of God, there go I or I'vegot my own history of struggle
and I'm willing to share thatwith somebody.
Whatever our stories are.
Being willing to talk out ofour own stories I think is a
(30:51):
great way to help get that ballrolling, but not expecting
immediate returns.
I mean, you talked about shameearlier, which again I think is
so powerful, and realizing thatpeople might stay stuck in their
shame for a little bit, wantingto get out of it.
But again, we're talking aboutoftentimes people who are really
embroiled deeply in the throesof addiction.
It's not just been aneight-week or eight-month year
(31:12):
kind of thing, like it's notjust been an eight week or eight
month year kind of thing.
It's probably like an eightyear or an 18 year, and not
trying to force or coerce, butreally just to be persistent in
terms of prayer, in terms ofinvitation, in terms of kind of
accountability resource for you.
So many good resources availableright now.
Just the last 10 years has seenan incredible increase in the
(31:34):
number of really good tools.
Some of them areChristian-based, not all of them
are Christian-based, but toolsthat do a great job of blocking
or filtering things on computers, on cell phones, on tablets,
accountability dimensions andonline group places to plug in
recovery services, three-dayworkshops, workshops and part of
(31:55):
the team at Bethesda workshopsin Nashville.
We've got guys from all overthe country that show up at
Bethesda and do a four-dayretreat.
So so many good resources, Ithink, just being able to brush
up and if there's somebody inour lives that we're concerned
about being able to just do alittle bit digging and say like,
hey, I thought of you likebeing able to just do a little
bit digging and say like, hey, Ithought of you.
Like you know, here's my storyof struggle.
Here's some, some resourcesthat may be helpful, uh, and to
(32:20):
break the veil, kind of tear theveil, if you will, of silence
and secrecy and shame, uh, andventure to, to risk loving
someone enough to to identifylike hey, I'm concerned and like
here's some resources that Ithink, like may be helpful, but
but loving someone enough to torisk kind of violating that,
that prescript that we have.
(32:41):
It says like don't talk aboutit, right, but like letting
being compelled and love to dothe work of you know, if we're
wrong, we're wrong, like okay,like we're wrong, like we love
enough to like say like hey,this is important, and like I
know, like here's what I've seenin the history online, here's
what, whatever, like, whateverdata point it is that's created
(33:02):
concern for us to just like tellthe truth about it and and
again, risk maybe them beingupset or angry with us, when
really what we're doing iscompelled by love and genuine
concern for them.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Well, and of course, I think your book is a very
helpful resource.
We are going to post the linkfor our listeners to Amazon and
other websites where they canpick up the book.
You also mentioned that youhave a website with some other
helpful resources.
What is it, Todd?
Would you mind mentioning that?
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, that's just a place where, as I've done this
work for 17 years of helpingfolks in recovery, helping
churches with recovery dynamics,just recognizing that
oftentimes kind of needing todeal with underlying family
system dynamics, kind ofdysfunctional or addicted family
systems that sometimes folksgrow up in and they need to do
some deeper healing in thosearenas as well.
(33:55):
As sometimes when the point ofimpact for a church system is
kind of pastoral moral failurean affair driven by sex
addiction or a pornographyaddiction that causes moral
failure.
Sometimes they're just storiesof spiritual abuse in those
spaces that is largely unknownuntil that pastoral moral
failure occurs.
(34:15):
So dedicating some time andspace to building resources to
help in those arenas for peopleas well, in addition to the work
that I do kind of more directlydealing with problematic sexual
behavior and recovery.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And that website is.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
The website is alelancom, same root as the word
alleluia, A-L-L-E-L-O-Ncom,alelancom.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Perfect.
Well, we'll post the link tothis website in our show notes
In the meantime.
Thank you so much for thisinterview and I hope that it's
going to be a helpful resourceand a helpful start, maybe, for
some listeners that are facingthis issue in their lives.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, I hope that as well.
It's been a true pleasure andjoy to be with you and just
again, thank you so much for theopportunity to be here with you
and joy to be with you and,just again, thank you so much
for the opportunity to be herewith you.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Wow, what an interesting conversation with Dr
Todd Bowman.
If you're like me, you probablyhave a lot to think about after
hearing all this, whether thisis something you've dealt with
yourself or you know someoneclose to you who struggles with
these issues.
I hope you're walking awayfeeling a little less alone and
a lot more hopeful.
I encourage you to pick up DrBowman's book Reclaiming Sexual
(35:35):
Wholeness and check out hiswebsite alalanintensivescom for
more resources.
I'm posting a link to thewebsite in the show notes.
The truth is, none of us areperfect and we all have our own
battles, but as we lean intoGod's grace and take steps
towards wholeness, he equips usto overcome.
(35:57):
Your testimony of victory isnot just for you to enjoy.
It is your tool to help someoneelse find wholeness in Christ.
At World Missions Alliance, wegive you the opportunity to do
just that.
If the Great Commission is onyour heart and you desire to
take your personal testimony tothe nations, check out our
(36:19):
website, rfwmaorg.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called His followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(36:52):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit.
Today we're diving into a topicthat is real, raw and maybe a
little uncomfortable, but soimportant.
We're talking about sexualaddiction.
You might not think it'ssomething that affects people in
the church, but the numberstell a different story.
Did you know that over 60% ofChristian men, and even 15% of
(00:41):
Christian women, say they havestruggled with pornography?
This isn't just a them problem,it's a we problem, and it's
impacting lives, marriages andcommunities in ways we often
don't talk about, at least notenough.
Within the church, 62% ofevangelical men and 37% of
(01:04):
pastors admit to struggling withpornography.
These numbers highlight apressing issue that demands our
attention and compassion.
That's why I'm excited to haveDr Todd Bowman with us today.
He's the author of a bookcalled Reclaiming Sexual
Wholeness, and he's here to helpus understand what's really
(01:29):
going on, why it happens and howwe can find healing, personally
and as a church.
Whether this is a battle you'refacing, something someone you
love is dealing with, or you'rejust wondering how to help
others stick around, thisconversation is packed with hope
and real-life solutions.
(01:50):
Good morning, todd.
Welcome to the Limitless Spirit.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Good morning.
I am excited to be here.
It's just a fantasticopportunity to talk about
something I think incrediblyrelevant, not just in the US but
around the world.
I know the work that I've doneon an international stage just
continues to reinforce howimportant this topic is.
I'm super thankful to be herewith you, to be able to unpack
it and talk about it today.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wonderful.
Well, let's talk about youfirst.
So what inspired you to focusspecifically on the topic of
sexual addiction and write thebook Reclaiming Sexual Wholeness
?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, that is a big story.
I'll summarize it by sayingreally it's a story of kind of
unexpected calling and theLord's faithfulness, not really
a topic that I ever set out tospecialize in or do much with as
a clinician or as an educatoror as an author or do much with
as a clinician or as an educatoror as an author.
And yet kind of when I was ayoung professional, I was in
(02:48):
supervision.
I was a young faculty memberactually and under the
supervision to get my clinicallicense to kind of continue
being a faculty person.
And I had a department chairactually who had a thriving
practice, had an overload ofclients and I needed to get
licensed, so it took to clientsand kind of like under his
(03:09):
tutelage.
And then I had a chance toconnect with Mark Laser from
Faithful and True while he wasstill with us and under his
tutelage, and then kind of justthe Lord faithfully kind of
opened doors and, if anything, Istrive to really just be
obedient.
That doesn't mean it's come likeeasy or seamlessly.
There's been a lot of kind of Idon't know Garden of Gethsemane
(03:32):
moments, kind of just reachingmy own limits and saying Lord
like take the cup, like this ishard work.
This is overwhelming work.
It's a lot of dealing withpeople's traumas and their pain
and their brokenness and theirsuffering and trying to
alleviate a lot of that distress.
And it's also a story not justof obedience but really the
Lord's faithfulness and you knowHis grace is sufficient and
(03:53):
that's response in these hardmoments.
Kind of that's the Lord'sresponse.
He has always been my grace issufficient for you and my power
is made perfect in weakness.
It's really I'm just a guytrying to be a Christian
educator at a graduatecounseling level and here I'm on
this incredible adventure withthe Lord and just bear witness
to his faithfulness, thatsometimes even the things that
(04:15):
we don't know, that we can doand can't do in our own power, I
think my life, my professionalwork to date, is really just a
story of like with God.
All things are possible andit's really about just learning
to be obedient, to be humble, tosubmit and to trust.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Amen to that and, frankly, most of our callings
happen in that certain way.
You know, I guess I wasexpecting a dramatic story or
something to hear about, but, tobe honest, I didn't realize how
prevalent sexual addiction isuntil I was reading statistics
(04:56):
and I remember now, where I sawit, the numbers that 70% of men
between the age of 18 and 30 areengaged in watching pornography
on a regular basis and youprobably have even more
statistics on that.
So that's huge numbers.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, I think it speaks to me.
It's always been a problem.
I mean you look at the sexualrevolution and kind of some of
the sexualization of theimagination in Western culture.
That's not to say it's not anissue in Africa or in Asia and
other places, but kind of morefrom a Western context.
The proliferation ofpornography in particular really
coincides with the sexualrevolution.
(05:35):
It's kind of like there'salready a bonfire going and just
imagine somebody throwing Idon't know like a gallon of
kerosene into the middle of abonfire.
Really, how I see kind of theimpact of technology 2005, 2006,
2007,.
With all of a sudden it was notjust a cell phone but it was a
supercomputer that we startedcarrying around in our pockets
(05:56):
and the accessibility that'sthere, the secrecy and privacy
that's afforded in those spacesreally again was kind of that
gasoline onto a fire that wasalready burning.
So that statistic I mean that'sthe reported statistic you have
to maybe look at the shamedynamic of how many people have
had that experience.
They're struggling.
Pornography is pretty predatory.
(06:17):
It's always on the prowl.
It's always looking to insertitself into our lives in the
modern age.
I mean from like fake accountson social media to spam and
inboxes, to even pop-ups andpopulating places that we tend
to not think about.
As I'm getting old, but assomebody who's a little bit
older, like I've got three boysand even some of the pop-ups
(06:40):
that show up on their video gamesystems and consoles that are
just their paid advertisementsby people who have nefarious
intent when it comes to thecontent that they're trying to
get my boys to click on.
So pornography is very predatoryin how it inserts itself and is
constantly looking for opendoors, open windows, any way to
(07:00):
access our lives, and sometimesin unexpected ways.
And I think that's where a lotof folks get tripped up.
And you look at even thatdemographic that you mentioned,
kind of teenagers up to 30,there's kind of a digital
nativeness in that space ofthey've just grown up with that
technology provided by theschools, provided by parents,
and then there's almost just animplicit trust of things that
(07:22):
are happening online andunfortunately, that trust gets
abused by my folks who have areally ill intent with regard to
the types of content they'retrying to get young people,
especially the average agecontinuing to decrease with
pornography exposure, they'retrying to get those hooks in at
younger and younger ages eight,nine, 10 years old.
When kids just have so much lessawareness, they're more
(07:44):
inclined to like shame andnegative response.
They're not going to tellanybody what they've seen and
kind of.
The longer it can grow insecrecy, the deeper the roots of
the struggle are going to go.
There's some pretty goodresearch that says if we can
protect kids till age 15 or 16from that exposure, it decreases
the probability of them havinga struggle or an addiction with
pornography until until again 15or 16, like by 80% like it
(08:11):
decreases their probability ofhaving a longer term struggle by
about 80%.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So so let's help define the problem for our
listeners, most of whom are notpsychologists and maybe not even
pastors.
But how would you explain inlayman terms?
How does sexual addictiondiffer from occasional struggles
with lust or temptation?
(08:35):
Lust or temptation.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to remember that, like
our sexual systems and I'llstart with the brain as someone
who's kind of a neurosciencegeek our sexual systems driven
by hormones, driven by memories,bodily sensations, like
remembering that like oursexuality really is a good gift
from God, right, and living in afallen world.
Like there are times when thosestruggles, those temptations,
(08:56):
right, scripture says like notemptation has overcome you
except what's common to man.
So, honoring the reality, paul,you know in writing, would use
the word soma, like the goodnessof the body, the goodness of
God's design for the human body,and then he would contrast that
with this idea of sarx.
Right, like the sinful desiresof the flesh.
Sometimes that like sinfuldesire shows up again to your
(09:17):
point, intermittently, it's kindof situational, it's triggered
by something a bit more acutelyversus a longer term struggle,
something where I mentioned theidea of hooks, like those hooks
got in deep and they got inearly.
So that tends to be a story oflots of wounds, right, like when
we struggle with maybe lust ortemptation, there's not as much
(09:38):
of a hook.
Again, obviously the enemy ofour souls desires to drag us
away and entice us and pull usinto maybe deeper struggles,
shame, secrecy, become twodrivers of that.
But sex addiction, pornographyaddiction, really is driven by
pretty deep and unresolvedwounds.
By pretty deep and unresolvedwounds could be abuses of
different sorts physical abuse,emotional abuse, sexual abuse
(10:02):
paired with maybe justdysfunctional family dynamics
really rigid, cold, unempathicparents, sometimes it's really
loose environments or morepermissive styles of parenting
where there were no boundaries.
Oftentimes it's kind of avacillation between those two.
So a family system or sometimeseven a church system, a
(10:22):
spiritual system where there'sreally rigid demand and
expectation for conformity butnot a whole lot of support, not
a whole lot of like actualsubstance when it comes to
helping, in this case, young men, young women kind of navigate
the trials and temptations ofthe world sexually.
And I think the proliferationof technology has kind of
(10:43):
created this generational gapwhere again I've got three boys,
two teenagers and a 10-year-oldwho's going on 21, trying to
keep up with the older two andjust looking at their
understanding of technology I'mold, but I'm not that old their
ability to just problem solveand figure it out, which is
really good for the future asfar as their careers, their
(11:05):
professions, their ability touse technology pretty seamlessly
.
But at the same time it kind ofgives them a leg up on being
able to create spaces in theironline world that I don't have
access to, my wife and I don'tknow anything about.
So it really enforces us intothat space of communication and
relationality.
I wrote in a book years agoAngry Birds and Killer Bees.
(11:26):
Talking to your kids about sex,kind of this veil of shame and
secrecy and silence really shame, secrecy, silence, kind of
being a driver and sometimeswe're afraid in the church to
talk to our kids about sexshroud because we have this fear
, this mythology.
Kind of see it around the topicof suicide as well.
Like if we teach our kids aboutthis, they're going to be
(11:48):
inclined to go and explore itand then they'll be exposed to
the bad things that I don't wantto expose them to.
So if I just stay silent aboutit and don't inform them, don't
shape their imaginations aroundsexual things, like, then they
won't have any struggles.
And the reality is like in themodern world, like porn is
looking for our kids.
Like I told you, it's predatory.
So, thinking about what we'renot serving our kids well when
(12:09):
we're not really forming healthyunderstandings of sexuality,
when we're avoiding those sextalks I always encourage parents
to kind of establish themselvesas the expert or authority,
because if we don't, googlewould be happy to Pornhub would
be happy to establish themselvesas the expert that our kids go
to.
So I think it's a combination ofthings as far as what drives
(12:31):
this, but it's a lot of wounds.
It's kind of driven by rigidand kind of disengaged or
chaotic environments, a lot ofomission, like things that we're
not instructing or teaching ourkids, and if we do, we'll kind
of say, like you know, don'thave sex before you're married,
which is really rigid anddisengaged.
Right, there's not a lot ofrelational formation or
imagination around.
What's the nature of sexuality?
(12:52):
What are the body parts Like,how do they work?
Are they good or are they likeshameful?
So when there's a story ofthose kind of really I would say
really essential dynamics,psychologically and relationally
, that are absent and like itjust leaves a barren patch where
I think you know addictivebehavior of any sort, but
especially in our hypersexualculture, that sexual struggle
(13:15):
takes root and grows really deeproots and then over time it's
much harder to root out.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Speaking about the church's role.
So why do you think the churchoften struggles to talk openly
about sexual addiction, and howdoes the silence affect people
in the pews who are strugglingwith that?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think I would love to see a scenario
wherein every church around theworld had some type of ministry
to addiction.
All addiction right Could be.
There's a number you know puredesire.
There's other 12-step processesthat exist, numerous of them
that exist, that churches haveonboarded and are using to great
(13:54):
effect.
Sometimes it's this idea of,sometimes the church doesn't
want to intrude too much intopeople's lives.
Scripture's there.
Scripture clearly puts someboundaries, parameters around
sexuality, what's healthy,what's not healthy.
But we don't want to scandalize.
I've had people walk out ofsermons when I'm preaching on
the issue of pornography.
(14:15):
So I think pastors see that andthere's just a fear of this is
a hot topic that we don't wantto touch.
If we can just kind of get bywith, like, indirectly
addressing it, then indirectlyaddress it and hope that that's
good enough.
But again, pure desire,celebrate recovery and other
12-step process.
I would love to see a placewhere, even if it's not directly
(14:36):
from the pulpit, like there'san adjacent ministry that's
purposefully there, that in thecontext of somebody identifying
a struggle, in the context ofspiritual direction or pastoral
counsel or discipleship, that weunderstand the reality of human
struggles actually in themodern world.
And like here at the church, wehave a place where you can go
(14:58):
and walk with people who areexperiencing a similar struggle.
Right, scripture says ironsharpens iron.
And like that idea of like howdo we go and allow ourselves to
be sharpened?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And it seems like in theory that's beautiful.
But one of the marks of sexualaddiction is shame, tremendous
shame that that person isexperiencing.
So even if there is a groupdedicated to people who overcome
that, for a person just to beable to admit on a public level
(15:33):
that they're struggling withthat is very hard because of the
issue of shame.
So how does your book helpChristians to move past shame
into healing?
Because that's, I think, is thefirst step on the path to
recovery.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah, kind of.
You know, breaking throughdenial means kind of having to
tell the truth to ourselvesabout ourselves and the first
thing, you're right, that we'regoing to encounter in that space
is having to deal with theshame.
You know that the idea to youknow, genesis chapter three
talks about they coveredthemselves and they hid.
And I think that's exactly thepsychological, relational and
spiritual function of shame aswe cover ourselves and we hide,
(16:10):
not realizing that like the Lordcomes and he is with us, he's
omniscient, he's omnipresent,like he knows we're in shame, we
think we're covering ourselvesin hiding and like somehow
keeping something from him.
Maybe it's more like apsychological and sociological
endeavor and shame, but I thinkit's so true that that's the
kind of first place to have tolean in with shame.
Specifically, I asked about thebook a buddy of mine, kurt
(16:32):
Thompson.
He's a psychiatrist that is inthe greater Washington DC area,
incredible thinker.
He's got numerous books.
He's just such a gift to theChristian psychology world with
everything from Anatomy of theSoul to the Deepest Place, a
book about suffering and others.
I could go on and on about.
He's just incredible.
He wrote a chapter.
He's a contributing author inthis text.
(16:53):
So I was privileged to be thecontributing author, wrote a
number of chapters with goodfriends and colleagues, but also
had kind of an unexpectednetwork of people who have
become dear friends over theyears professionally personally,
kurt Thompson being one ofthose.
So his chapter is justunbelievable from a neuroscience
perspective.
Kind of distilled down intopractical application, it's
(17:14):
really about overcoming shamewith vulnerability and kind of
this thesis that taking the riskto vulnerate ourselves really
is the antidote to shame.
To lean in to think about theidea of entrust, like how do I
take the risk to entrust myself?
We see this a lot kind of morenatively in human development,
(17:36):
where you look at children rightLike I remember my boys would,
like you know sometimesunexpectedly like run and take a
flying leap, like justexpecting that I was going to
catch them as they jumped offthe couch or jumped off the
rocks or the swing set orsomeplace.
So this idea that kind of whatwe're created to entrust
ourselves.
Right, relationally I couldbore you with the neuroscience
what that looks like, but Ithink obviously, theologically,
(17:59):
we're created to entrustourselves to the Lord and I
think that's what shame does.
Is it really like creates anarrative in our minds, our
beliefs about ourself, thatwe're somehow so deficient and
so defective that we're beyondthe reach of grace, we're beyond
the risk of getting back to thegood that we're created with,
(18:20):
of of entrusting ourselves, liketo say, like I'm going to
vulnerable myself and I'm goingto like jump into this space,
like believing that, thatthere's going to be people here
that are going to catch me.
And I think that's the power ofthese groups is that it's not
just one person.
And as a therapist, as apsychologist like, I think
therapy is great, it's impactful, it's the deep dive into a lot
(18:41):
of the wounds, a lot of thetraumas.
It's so important.
But I can't can't overstate theimpact of recovery groups,
12-step work and celebraterecovery, pure desire, others
around the country where reallyit's that place to be caught.
If we're struggling, it's hard.
I mean shame, everything aboutus.
If we even looked at shame, itcomes online early, it's
(19:04):
obviously intense.
But I think one of the thingsthat we forget about shame is
that the longer we persist in it, the more reflexive it becomes.
And I think it takes animmensity of courage to say I'm
going to override this reflexthat's been conditioned by years
of secrecy, years of struggle,years of reinforcing the belief
that I'm somehow bad orunlovable or deficient or
defective in some way.
(19:25):
But let's really throw ourselvesand entrust ourselves to mercy,
not just the Lord's mercy, butthe fact that men and women in
these groups who are walking outstories of healing like really
are grace in the flesh, likethey're agents of mercy who are
there to help do the hard workof exploring story and providing
accountability and beingpresent and holding us in our
(19:49):
Christian spirit andbrokenhearted, and it's powerful
spirit and brokenhearted andit's powerful.
I mean, if anybody's spent timein these spaces, it's just
incredibly powerful to see thehealing and redemption that
happens.
But it starts with, to yourpoint, like recognizing our
shame and taking that risk andvulnerability to entrust
ourselves to others who we don'tknow.
(20:11):
But we have to choose tobelieve that the Lord can and is
using them for our good andthat in that vulnerability
they'll meet us with mercy, withtenderness, with grace and help
lead us, help disciple us, tothat place of healing and
restoration.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So your title talks about sexual wholeness.
So what is sexual wholeness,and is it different from just
overcoming the addiction?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think one of the moreoverlooked dimensions of sex
addiction recovery is not justthe like, how do we create
programs and interventions tohelp facilitate the cessation of
the struggle?
I would say, you know, that'ssobriety, right, like how do I
stop doing the thing I don'twant to do?
And it's kind of like the romanchapter 7 deal here right, the
(20:59):
good I want to do, I can't do,the evil I don't want to do, I
can't stop doing.
Like who will rescue me fromthis body of death?
Right, like, it's so profound,because that's the struggle of
any person I've worked with inmy 17 year career with any type
of addiction.
But but the idea is it doesn'tjust stop at like, oh good, like
now I can stop doing the thingI don't want to do.
Like now I'm healed.
Hallelujah, praise God.
(21:19):
I would say like that's justsobriety, and sobriety is a
necessity in this process ofrecovery.
You know, recovery insinuateslike we're putting things back
to the good.
We're putting things back tothe way they were created or
ordained.
Things back to the good.
We're putting things back tothe way they were created or
ordained.
So I think the Hebrew word herewould be shalem peace, how we
(21:39):
would translate that when Paulis using this construct, he's
not just talking about peacelike the absence of conflict or
internal turmoil.
He's really talking about thisnotion of shalem, the root for
shalom, meaning the peace thatcomes from things being restored
back to the whole.
So when I think about reclaimingsexual wholeness, it's not just
(22:00):
the cessation of theproblematic behavior, it's
really this work of grace, thiswork of healing, this work of
redemption, hard work of tillingthe soil of our hearts and
going back to the traumas, goingback to the wounds, telling the
truth about relational dynamicsor family dynamics that can be
sometimes hard to deal with andto navigate.
You know, honor thy mother andfather, except for, like a lot
(22:23):
of folks believe, kind ofanswering your previous question
.
You know, sometimes the reasonwe can't talk about this in the
church is because we have totake a hard look at like.
Are there ways as parents?
I'm a dad of three boys.
Boys are the ways in which I'vecontributed to any of my son's
struggles right, like a littlebit early to tell right, but
like the answer is probably,like probably, and doing the
(22:44):
hard work of taking out.
Yeah, we all do right, like I'mnot trying to beat myself up or
be hard on any other parent, butlike it's just part of living
in this fallen world and lookingat like, oh, like, did the
things that happened when I wasyoung create a space where I
didn't want to talk about this?
Maybe my story is different,right, because I'm like the.
We talked about this all thetime.
From the time they were two, wewere talking about body parts,
(23:05):
and then, by the time they wereseven or eight, we had like the
full on, like here's, here's how, the whole thing of human
sexuality, or like.
I don't know if that's going tobe helpful or hindering for
them until I'm like.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
That reminded me of the experience we had.
We have two sons too, andthey're nine years apart.
And so, because you know, thegeneration has changed in nine
years and I was super nervousabout, you know, having this
conversation with our youngestson soon enough before he's
(23:37):
exposed to it in a negative way,you know, from his peers and
the school environment.
So I had my husband, you know,do this because he's the dad,
and my son later told him dad,that was just too soon you
started this company and he waslike six or seven, you know, but
(23:58):
I think that's part of it right, like part of this is getting
in front of culture and back tothe idea of sexual wholeness,
like that's part of it.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Like part of sexual wholeness is about like
restoring things that have beennegatively impacted by sin, by
the broken world we live in,restoring those back to the good
.
But I think a part of it too islike how do we protect that
wholeness, like how do we keepthings whole without having to
go to the full measure ofbrokenness?
And that's part of this too.
(24:24):
So reclaiming sexual wholenessdynamic really is about how do
we look at not just thecessation of problematic
behavior, but how do we do theunderlying work of helping heal
the pain of trauma, thedifferent pain of wounds that
have happened, maybe wounds ofomission I used that word
earlier wounds of rejection,wounds of abandonment in
different situations.
(24:45):
But then some of that work myexperience in 17 years is maybe
the most glaring absence in alot of recovery work is what
does it look like then to help acouple who's been through this
story of betrayal, trauma andsex addiction kind of then come
to cultivate an experience intheir own marriage?
There's not just a kind of arepetition or a borrowing from
(25:09):
the distorted things of a worldthat populates that space.
What does it look like to helpthem maybe prioritize kind of
spiritual intimacy and emotionalintimacy and then the physical
marital act is like emanatesfrom that?
So sex is not just like thisdisembodied thing, like we're
going to be spiritual intimate,go to church together, but like
then our physical intimacy right, it's kind of like just a
(25:31):
physical dimension.
I think that wholeness piece isabout the reintegration, the
restoration of all thosedimensions of how we're created
into a coherent whole and intoyour previous question and
comment about shame.
Shame is very disintegrated.
It literally like keeps thingsin secret, it creates
compartments in us, whereas Ithink the work of reintegration,
sexual wholeness, is reallyabout how do we take all those
(25:53):
dimensions of how we're createdin God's image and reintegrate,
reconnect those and live in thefullness of that, rather than
living in thecompartmentalization, the
disintegration that sin alwaysfacilitates in our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
In your approach you talk about the connection
between trauma and addiction.
So can you share how pastwounds can drive that addictive
behavior and how healing thosewounds can lead to freedom?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah, so a lot of great neuroscience, a lot of
great kind of psychologicalscience on the impact of trauma.
What it does to usneurologically kind of activates
our stress response system, oursympathetic nervous system,
kind of leaves it on full borelooking for threat, looking for
danger, and then kind of theneuroaffective model that you'll
find in reclaiming sexualillness in those early chapters
(26:44):
that I've been on since I thinkabout 2009.
So I must be getting old ifI've been working on the same
model for the past 15 years.
But it looks at that idea ofemotional regulation and how so
much of the neurochemistry ofaddiction and the neurochemistry
of sexuality kind of fittogether like hand in glove.
They kind of amplify oneanother so that the power of
(27:07):
kind of sexual neurobiology,both from an anticipatory
perspective but also from kindof a realized I would call it
consummatory.
So I just even thinking aboutsex living in sexual fantasy
like starts a dopamine drip, itstarts an opioid drip.
Same thing with the idea ofkind of consummatory experience,
right Like orgasm or sexualexperience, also coincides with
(27:31):
very powerful neurochemicalprocesses.
And I think what we see withtrauma is especially for sexual
trauma but even other trauma wesee this idea of the power of
our sexual neurobiology veryquickly being leveraged to help
soothe the distress ofpost-traumatic stress, of
(27:54):
post-traumatic stress, and inthe hand and glove right, it's
kind of the the most intensedimension Our neurobiology has
again like intended fordifferent reasons, right, I
would say the intensity of thatis really there to be a door
opener for bonding If we want tolook at the neurochemistry of
sexuality and God's design.
But I think it's a.
It's an abuse of that, adistortion of that, maybe better
(28:15):
said than abuse, a distortedutilization of our sexual
neurobiology.
But it's effective and that'sthe hard part is because it's so
effective and because there'sso much intensity of distress.
We see, with people who haveendured trauma, like the
intensity of that sexualneurobiology kind of like very
quickly becomes the priority,the go-to mechanism for
(28:37):
down-regulating and escapingsome of the distress
psychologically, but evenphysiologically as well.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So for those of our listeners who struggle, maybe,
with sexual addiction, or ourfamily members of people who
struggle with sexual addiction,what advice do you have, what
hope can you offer and maybesome of the practical steps that
they can take towards recovery?
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, I think you know, sometimes it's hard to
help.
If you're a lay person, ifyou're a family member, it's
hard to even know how to broachthe topic.
But I think what's true is mostof us, most of us in the world,
by way of technology, by way ofwhere we're at in the modern
age, have a porn story, right.
Have a exposure to pornographywhen I was six years old.
(29:24):
Have a right like found a VHStape when I was 11, have a you
know, clicked on the wrong linkor I typed in pokemoncom, which
used to be pornographic websitebefore it was purchased back.
Right, like some incidental,accidental exposure.
So I think leading with thatspace of empathy so important.
But like it starts with justbeing willing to have a
(29:45):
conversation hey, I'm concernedabout you If it's for our kids,
right.
Like remembering that we're theparents and being able to lead
from that place of like ratherthan punishment.
We're leading from a place ofcare, like we might have to draw
some different boundaries, wemight have to remove some
technology, but really, like myjob as a parent is like the
wellbeing of my child's soul andnurturing them in the faith,
like embodying godliness to them, anchoring myself in the word
(30:08):
and anchoring them in the word,helping them anchor themselves
in the word Right.
So like thinking about yeah,this is hard but like, my care
and love for this person isgreater than like yeah, like
they might dismiss me, theymight be angry with me, but it's
about planting seeds and Ithink being able to like pray
obviously prayer, I think is ahuge one like trusting that the
Lord is going to providelanguage, provide insight.
(30:30):
Sometimes it's provide theright timing around these things
, but I think just leading with,with concern, but also being
able to demonstrate that we'reconnected to our own story and
have our own place where werealize like yeah, but for the
grace of God, there go I or I'vegot my own history of struggle
and I'm willing to share thatwith somebody.
Whatever our stories are.
Being willing to talk out ofour own stories I think is a
(30:51):
great way to help get that ballrolling, but not expecting
immediate returns.
I mean, you talked about shameearlier, which again I think is
so powerful, and realizing thatpeople might stay stuck in their
shame for a little bit, wantingto get out of it.
But again, we're talking aboutoftentimes people who are really
embroiled deeply in the throesof addiction.
It's not just been aneight-week or eight-month year
(31:12):
kind of thing, like it's notjust been an eight week or eight
month year kind of thing.
It's probably like an eightyear or an 18 year, and not
trying to force or coerce, butreally just to be persistent in
terms of prayer, in terms ofinvitation, in terms of kind of
accountability resource for you.
So many good resources availableright now.
Just the last 10 years has seenan incredible increase in the
(31:34):
number of really good tools.
Some of them areChristian-based, not all of them
are Christian-based, but toolsthat do a great job of blocking
or filtering things on computers, on cell phones, on tablets,
accountability dimensions andonline group places to plug in
recovery services, three-dayworkshops, workshops and part of
(31:55):
the team at Bethesda workshopsin Nashville.
We've got guys from all overthe country that show up at
Bethesda and do a four-dayretreat.
So so many good resources, Ithink, just being able to brush
up and if there's somebody inour lives that we're concerned
about being able to just do alittle bit digging and say like,
hey, I thought of you likebeing able to just do a little
bit digging and say like, hey, Ithought of you.
Like you know, here's my storyof struggle.
Here's some, some resourcesthat may be helpful, uh, and to
(32:20):
break the veil, kind of tear theveil, if you will, of silence
and secrecy and shame, uh, andventure to, to risk loving
someone enough to to identifylike hey, I'm concerned and like
here's some resources that Ithink, like may be helpful, but
but loving someone enough to torisk kind of violating that,
that prescript that we have.
(32:41):
It says like don't talk aboutit, right, but like letting
being compelled and love to dothe work of you know, if we're
wrong, we're wrong, like okay,like we're wrong, like we love
enough to like say like hey,this is important, and like I
know, like here's what I've seenin the history online, here's
what, whatever, like, whateverdata point it is that's created
(33:02):
concern for us to just like tellthe truth about it and and
again, risk maybe them beingupset or angry with us, when
really what we're doing iscompelled by love and genuine
concern for them.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Well, and of course, I think your book is a very
helpful resource.
We are going to post the linkfor our listeners to Amazon and
other websites where they canpick up the book.
You also mentioned that youhave a website with some other
helpful resources.
What is it, Todd?
Would you mind mentioning that?
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, that's just a place where, as I've done this
work for 17 years of helpingfolks in recovery, helping
churches with recovery dynamics,just recognizing that
oftentimes kind of needing todeal with underlying family
system dynamics, kind ofdysfunctional or addicted family
systems that sometimes folksgrow up in and they need to do
some deeper healing in thosearenas as well.
(33:55):
As sometimes when the point ofimpact for a church system is
kind of pastoral moral failurean affair driven by sex
addiction or a pornographyaddiction that causes moral
failure.
Sometimes they're just storiesof spiritual abuse in those
spaces that is largely unknownuntil that pastoral moral
failure occurs.
(34:15):
So dedicating some time andspace to building resources to
help in those arenas for peopleas well, in addition to the work
that I do kind of more directlydealing with problematic sexual
behavior and recovery.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And that website is.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
The website is alelancom, same root as the word
alleluia, A-L-L-E-L-O-Ncom,alelancom.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Perfect.
Well, we'll post the link tothis website in our show notes
In the meantime.
Thank you so much for thisinterview and I hope that it's
going to be a helpful resourceand a helpful start, maybe, for
some listeners that are facingthis issue in their lives.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, I hope that as well.
It's been a true pleasure andjoy to be with you and just
again, thank you so much for theopportunity to be here with you
and joy to be with you and,just again, thank you so much
for the opportunity to be herewith you.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Wow, what an interesting conversation with Dr
Todd Bowman.
If you're like me, you probablyhave a lot to think about after
hearing all this, whether thisis something you've dealt with
yourself or you know someoneclose to you who struggles with
these issues.
I hope you're walking awayfeeling a little less alone and
a lot more hopeful.
I encourage you to pick up DrBowman's book Reclaiming Sexual
(35:35):
Wholeness and check out hiswebsite alalanintensivescom for
more resources.
I'm posting a link to thewebsite in the show notes.
The truth is, none of us areperfect and we all have our own
battles, but as we lean intoGod's grace and take steps
towards wholeness, he equips usto overcome.
(35:57):
Your testimony of victory isnot just for you to enjoy.
It is your tool to help someoneelse find wholeness in Christ.
At World Missions Alliance, wegive you the opportunity to do
just that.
If the Great Commission is onyour heart and you desire to
take your personal testimony tothe nations, check out our
(36:19):
website, rfwmaorg.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called His followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(36:52):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
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