August 15, 2024 • 33 mins
What is the root of the Blakan conflict, how to solve it and why you should care?
Serbian pastor Bera talks with host Helen Todd about the intricate history of this turbulent region. They explore how Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Islam have created a mosaic of national identities and fueled ongoing animosities that complicate the spread of evangelical Christianity. Pastor Bera provides a unique lens on the enduring religious tensions and shares how his small evangelical church in Novi Sad, Serbia, manages to address 30% of the city's emergency needs. From homelessness to addiction and marginalized communities, their outreach is nothing short of inspiring. Pastor Bera reflects on the historical persecution and ongoing challenges faced by Serbian evangelical Christians and the innovative approaches to evangelism and rehabilitation that are bearing fruit.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, where we discuss topics
that matter to followers ofChrist, especially those
pursuing their greater purposein Jesus.
Today, we focus on the Balkans,specifically the nation of
Serbia.
You might recognize Serbiabecause of the famous inventor
Nikola Tesla or the tennisplayer Novak Djokovic.
(00:37):
However, serbia and the Balkansare associated often with
unresolvable ethnic conflictsand the tragic consequences of
extreme nationalism.
Serbia, particularly during thebloody Balkan Wars of the 1990s
, has often been cast in anegative light as an aggressor
(00:59):
and a cruel military opponent.
Today, my guest is a Serbianpastor who is loved and
respected throughout the Balkanregion, despite the ongoing
hatred and conflicts among theBalkan countries.
He shares important insightsinto the conflict, discusses the
relationship betweennationalism and Christianity and
(01:20):
explores the only way theBalkan conflict can be resolved.
We also talk about thespiritual destiny of his country
, serbia, and explores the onlyway the Balkan conflict can be
resolved.
We also talk about thespiritual destiny of his country
, serbia.
Hello, pastor Bera.
Welcome to the Limitless Spiritpodcast for the second time.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
It's my pleasure.
Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm really glad to join you in this conversation.
I'm really excited to talk toyou today because when God put
this vision and desire onChuck's heart to come to the
Balkan region, you were thefirst person that Chuck felt
like God wanted us to partnerwith.
And I don't think it's anaccident because now that we
(02:11):
have traveled, you know, acrossthe Balkans and different
countries, you're one of themost popular and most loved and
respected pastors in the Balkanregion.
So not a coincidence, butdefinitely God's guidance.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
No, I have many friends.
I try to make friendships.
So that is the main reason,because I really like to make
friendships and connections.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It's not easy, though you know, and we'll talk a
little bit about the history inthe Balkans and the relationship
between the Balkan countries.
I think it's quite remarkablethat you are able to achieve
this friendship and even loveand admiration from the people
in other Balkan countries,because the history of this
(02:56):
region is quite painful and isstill very tense the
relationship between thecountries, and you know the more
that we have traveled andworked around the Balkans.
I believe that maybe this isthe reason and this is more of a
question to you maybe this isthe reason, you know that pain
(03:18):
and maybe animosity even.
Could this be the reason thatChristianity, meaning
evangelical Christianity, is notspreading faster across these
nations?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Oh yeah, that is the main reason.
That is the main reason andsome historical influence.
That's happened because of war.
So when we spoke about Balkansthe name of Balkans, showing how
this area is difficult for lifethat is Turkish word and
meaning land of honey and blood.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Really.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
When Ottomans came here, they gave this area that
name because they saw how thisland is fruitful, good for
living, but from other side somany wars and everything.
So they call this land of honeyand blood and that's what the
word balkan mean.
I thought it meant mountainsweet and uh and that, so that
(04:12):
is mixed uh, and even winstonchurchill called this area, uh,
like a bomb who is ready toexplode.
Because, uh, that is how I wasalways situation here, and
reason is because this is likedoor for europe.
Historically, this was all foreurope.
So when you look at this area,all tribes or nation who wanted
(04:36):
to come to europe from asia orafrica, they crossed through
balkan.
All tribes who wanted to go toAsia, to other direction, this
was again their way to Asia.
And all tribes who came fromthe area of Russia, from steppes
of Russia again, this was doorfor Europe.
(04:56):
So this was constantly placewhere was conflict between
different tribes, differentnations?
When you look at my city, noviSad, there was a conflict
between different tribes,different nations.
Even when you look at my city,novi Sad, and the history of
Novi Sad until the last twocenturies, before that, every 50
, 60 years was a different tribewho lived here.
(05:18):
So every 50, 60, 100 years wasa different nation, different
tribe who conquered this land,took from others and was nation,
different tribe who conqueredthis land, take from other and
was constantly, constantly war.
That is reason why it's a landof honey and blood and through
centuries we learn to fightagainst each other.
So that is century of constantwars, war, constant revenge.
(05:43):
And one of the reasons why wefight was religion.
Again, this is like border areaof Europe and through Balkan,
going line between Catholicismand Orthodoxy.
So this was like border betweenthese two influences and they
fight between each other.
And later Islam came like thirdfactor and that was constant
(06:07):
fight between each other.
And later Islam came like thirdfactor and that was constant
fight between these threereligion on influence here.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
So Islam Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
I have a question.
You said that the reason forthese wars was religion, but at
the same time, there is aperspective that the reason for
these wars was the fight fornational identity, in which
religion was used as the meansof creating that national
(06:37):
identity between the tribes.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
But that is connected here.
Here national identity isstrictly aligned with the
religion.
So, like Serbs are OrthodoxCroats, they are Catholic
Bosnians, they are MuslimMacedonians, they are Orthodox
Greeks, they are OrthodoxAlbanians, especially in Kosovo,
(07:01):
especially on Kosovo, they areMuslims.
So that was an important partof national identity and again,
that has deep historical reason.
Especially in the time of thiswar and later in the Ottoman
occupation, so many people whoaccept Islam were treated like
(07:23):
traitors from other their nationand they bring even bigger
division between us, especiallylike Serb and Bosnian.
We speak same language, we havesame names and only what is
different between Serb andBosnian is religion, nothing
else.
Culture is same, everything issame, only this religion.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What about Croats and Serbs?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Again, only religion.
Same language, differentbetween names, but not big.
We can understand each other.
We speak the same language, wehave the same culture, but the
difference was religion.
They are Catholics, serbs areOrthodox.
They are Catholics, serbs are.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Orthodox, so the only foundation for the national
identity of these countries.
Now, the Greeks.
They're distinctly different,though, because their language
is different, you know.
So they would be considered adifferent ethnic group.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Between Greek is language Language.
They're Orthodox like Serbs.
But you have a conflict betweenthem and Albanians.
That is mainly a question ofreligion and other factor of
conflict is historical.
You know that some don't wantto accept that other nations
different from them, like thatis between Bulgarian and
(08:43):
Macedonian, bulgarian willalways say Macedonia.
Or Bulgarian and Macedonianwill say no, we are different.
So it's again complicatedBalkan things, mix of different
historical influence.
Or Greek will always sayMacedonian nation don't exist.
(09:03):
That is Greek nation.
You know who speaks Slaviclanguage.
So again one more factor forfight.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So this is interesting, though, you know,
there are significantdifferences between Christianity
and Islam If we look at thedistinctions between Catholicism
and Eastern Orthodoxy.
In essence, these are bothChristian religions, and so
seemingly there shouldn't besuch a great conflict between
(09:36):
the people that follow thisreligion.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
So then, that is logic but not practice.
That is logic, but not practice.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well then, the next step from that would be, if you
look at what Christianityimplores us to do and to be,
there shouldn't be room for thistype of conflict that produces
bloody wars and everything thathas happened in the Balkans.
So what would, in your opinion,would be the solution to that
(10:10):
situation, because, obviously,politically, there is no
solution.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No solution, yes.
So first, I think mix ofreligion and national identity
is toxic.
Really, it's important toseparate from that narrative,
you know.
So for me that was the mainreason why I am evangelical,
because I really didn't likethat national feeling in the
(10:35):
orthodoxy or in Catholicism.
So if they understand that weare brothers, that is the
solution.
They will stop to fight eachother.
But if they treat themselveslike heretics, you know between
themselves, they will fightagainst them because they are
your enemy.
I think that is important, butI don't see that as possible
(10:57):
really in Orthodoxy or inCatholicism.
That will never happen withthem.
Only when some big miracle, Idon't know revival, if this
happened, but in this moment, no.
If you listen, like everyEaster leaders of the church
will have their Easter sermonand more than half is political.
(11:23):
They speak against Croats, likein Serbia, speak against Croats
, like in Serbia, speak againstCroats against Albanians.
So a lot of politics and smallamount of Christianity.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Well, something interesting that you said that
the mix of religion and nationalidentity is toxic.
I think this is a veryimportant subject, even for
Americans, and specificallyAmerican Christians.
So would you say thatnationalism in itself is bad and
(11:55):
incompatible with trueChristianity?
What is your opinion?
I don't think there's a rightor wrong answer here.
So what is your opinion as apastor?
So what is?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
your opinion.
As a pastor, I'm trying to makedifference between patriotism
and nationalism.
We try to make difference.
One is to love your nation andother things when you think that
you are better than others.
So nationalism is more thanlove.
You think that you are betterthan others and what is the
(12:27):
consequence?
That others are lower than you,not worthy like you, and that
is really toxic, toxic message.
When you treat others likelower grade, you're ready to
make some evil things to thembecause they are not worthy and
so yeah, so I can saynationalism, how I think is, is
(12:49):
very bad.
But to love your nation, thatis good, but you don't treat
others like somebody who isthere are so many more questions
to this conversation, but Iwant us to talk about Serbia.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So I don't want to go on the rabbit trail, but you
know we have a year of electionand it's really a very touchy
subject, you know, and I wouldlove to have a whole other
conversation about that.
So I know you are a patriot ofthis country.
You're a true patriot of yourcountry, of Serbia.
So, for people who are notfamiliar with Serbia, what would
(13:27):
you think are the mostimportant things they should
know about your country?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
This is a beautiful country, but, like all Balkans,
it's a mix of blood and honey.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I love that mix of blood and honey.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
When you look at people who are famous, they are
always ready to fight.
Our famous sport is NovDjokovic, and when you look at
his tennis match, he alwaysfights to the last breath.
You know, and usually changesthe direction of the match, and
(14:08):
that is with all our spouse.
So so we are.
We are warriors nation.
I can say that this, that issomething that is our, our
characteristic here.
Nature is beautiful, a lot ofhistory.
This is area where, throughcenturies, so many things happen
, like 16 caesars.
(14:29):
Roman was born here in Serbia,in this area, where is Serbia
now?
Around my city, nine of them InSerbia was born in the time
that this was Roman Roman Empire, but was born great Constantine
, who made this toleration toChristians, stopped persecution,
(14:49):
kiro Zatila, the great whip ofGod.
Mongols, huns you can find someinfluence here in this area.
So a lot of differentinfluences and a mix of
different nations.
In Serbia there don't live onlySerbs, but many others like
(15:13):
Slovak, Hungarian, albanians,croats, bosnians, I don't know.
I think 22 ethnic groups wholived here for centuries.
So that is typical here forBalkan, this mix of different
tribes.
Religiously, 85% will say theyare Orthodox.
(15:35):
They are not churchgoers.
Less than 1% will go inOrthodox Church, 5% are Catholic
, 3% are Muslim and less than 1%will say they are Protestant.
Evangelical Christian is lessthan one percent will say
they're Protestant.
Evangelical Christian is lessthan 0.1 percent.
If you say that in Serbia livenow six and a half million
(15:58):
people less than 7,000, I thinkare evangelical, like newborn
believers Wow, that's a verysmall number.
Like newborn believers.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Wow, that's a very small number.
So let's talk about the trend.
Would you say that theevangelical Christianity came to
Serbia mostly at the fall ofcommunism?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
No, no, they came here before between two wars,
first and second.
Between two wars first andsecond.
So if you spoke aboutPentecostals, I think three or
four years after Azusa, thefirst Pentecostal church was
opened here in Vojvodina.
About this longer here, I thinkthat I don't know 150 or 200
(16:42):
years here.
So because this is a lot of mixof different nations, usually
groups who were persecutedsomewhere here was possible to
find some peace, but growth ofevangelical Christianity
happened after the fall ofcommunism.
So I can say, maybe in theformer Yugoslavia, maybe maybe
(17:06):
was a few thousand evangelicalbelievers, and after the fall of
communism it was different.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So then there was that growth, but then it slowed
down.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, because of war.
So in the same time whencommunism slowed down, here war
started, and that is differentwhen you compare with other
Eastern European countries whohad in that time huge revival.
Here revival started and wasstopped by war.
So we stay on that numberbecause of war.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Well, the war now has been over for 30 years, 20
years, 30.
30 years.
So what is happeningspiritually in Serbia today?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
On some level.
For us it's never over here inBalkan.
So hate is still deep.
When you travel to Bosnia, youcan feel that, because in Bosnia
Serbs cross Muslims and theyhate each other.
Kosovo is the same exampleBetween Serbs and Albanians
there is deep hate.
So I can say that we are in thesame example.
Between Serbs and Albaniansthere is deep hate.
So I think I can say that weare in the frozen conflict and
(18:13):
the only reason that here ispeace, I think because you are
forced to be in peace,especially in Bosnia and Kosovo.
So that is one reason whatspiritually happened I can speak
about evangelical ChristiansNumber is going down.
Why?
Because many emigrate to Europeand America.
(18:36):
I think number is around 5,000that we need.
So for church, who was like10,000 people big when you lost
5,000, that was devastating andmany of the people were leaders
or young people.
So I can say that we arenumbers going down.
We're slowly recovering now.
(18:58):
What is good is that in someareas there were no churches
before.
Now we have churches and we arevery active in the mission.
That is very positive.
We try to open churches inevery city and more and more
churches are opening, butcentral Serbia, especially
before.
It was no, no, absolutely noevangelical Christian there.
(19:20):
Slowly we are starting withsome mission in the Muslim part.
The name of that part is Sanjak.
It's five big cities there.
Then you go there.
It's like Saudi Arabia.
It's not big difference.
It's very strict Muslim.
But slowly we started there.
So that is positive.
(19:42):
We are very active in the inthe work with the group who are
vulnerable underprivilegedcommunities yeah, that is good
word, yeah, yeah, yeah, I knowlike for our church.
We are church of 200 people herein novi sad, but our government
, government, novi sad, told usthat we are solving around 30
(20:03):
percent of all emergencysituation in novi sad.
We we were shocked, you know.
So for homeless people who losttheir homes, something.
So this small church, 200people, 30% of all intervention
in the city we saw and helpedpeople.
Or with drug addicts hugechurches are very active with
(20:28):
helping drug addicts.
This spring I was in governmentwe have special office who are
fighting against drug addictionin Serbia and they invite all
organization for Serbia two orthree times in the year when we
have like strategic meeting whatto do in the future, and on
that meeting was maybe 40 peopleand 25 or 30 was evangelical
(20:53):
Christian.
So I can say that evangelicalChristians do the biggest job in
helping drug addicts andstopping addiction.
Now the church is very activein fighting against gambling
because that is like a hugedisease now in this area.
(21:15):
So that is very positive.
So with Roma community, again,that is a big miracle what the
church do there, because herethey are very marginalized and
only who opened doors for themare evangelicals and that
influenced all communities,cities.
(21:36):
You know, if it's Roma churchin some city, children are
educated, they're finishingschool, they have health
insurance.
Everything is, you know, ingood order.
You know, if it's not churchthere, they live in slums area.
So I can say that it's likesome spiritual picture.
(21:59):
We are small but very active.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I think you are a phenomenal example to any church
around the world where you knownot only you share the word,
but you also address thecommunity needs in action, and
these actions speak forthemselves to the outsiders, and
so that's why you're so lovedand respected in the communities
(22:27):
even outside of Serbia, becauseyou are literally being what
the church is called to do Notonly preach the love of Christ,
but show the love of Christ.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Oh, yeah, that is our calling.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Essentially, I believe that this is what's
going to help bridge that gap,you know, between the
evangelical Christians and thecultural perception of what
evangelical Christians are.
Because, you know, often incountries where Eastern
Orthodoxy is a predominantreligion, there is a negative
(23:02):
view of evangelical Christiansand maybe even perception of
evangelical Christianity being acult.
Does that exist in Serbia?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Oh yeah, yeah, Even more than in other countries.
When there was war in 93, 94,and 95, here was really big
persecution because evangelicalChristians we had really good
connection with the West, so oneof the enemies of our country
was evangelicals.
(23:32):
So it was really hard periodfor us.
In the state news they spokethat we were drinking blood,
that we sacrificed children,that we were taking property, we
were part of the archers.
We will take all your propertyfrom you.
So, many, many terrible lies.
(23:54):
They spoke about Satanisticcult and mentioned our names in
that context.
It was really difficult andthere was constantly attack on
our buildings or on our people.
Many, many was arrestedConstantly.
Secret police come to ourmeetings and now it's better, so
(24:15):
it's not anymore officialpersecution, but that picture
stays in the mind of people.
So we are not only sect or cultbut we are dangerous.
You know, if you come here, whoknows what can happen to you.
So that is a big problem for us.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
So how should we pray for Serbia?
What are the main points thatyou would think we should lift
to God as we pray for thebreakthrough and revival of
Christianity in Serbia?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
For me, you know, this opening of new churches is
really really big miracle.
I mean our church.
Now we are active in four orfive places.
We have in our network ofchurches, protestant Christian
Fellowship, one church in thecenter of Serbia.
They have small groups, I don'tknow, five or six cities around
(25:11):
villages.
So really good things happening.
And I see in the, when I seepicture from the baptism on the
social network, I see the numberof people who was baptized
growing and interesting, many ofthem coming to Christ through
videos on the YouTube, even fromAmerica.
You know we have a few peoplein the church who became
(25:32):
Christian through internet andlater they find, oh, you know,
it have a few people in thechurch who became Christian
through the internet and laterthey find, oh, you know, it's
not a church like that.
So they become part of us.
So pray for that.
You know.
I think in our context it islike revival, because new
churches are born, things arehappening.
This work with the drug addictsis a huge blessing for us
(25:55):
because they accept Christ.
That is what we do in the rehabcenter.
We give them Christ, a messageof hope, and later many of them
becoming leaders of the churches.
That is a fountain of influencein this area.
That is really good things.
(26:16):
So pray for that, or work withRoma.
That is really, again,something that is so wonderful
to see.
I teach in their schools and Idon't speak Roma language, but I
have really good friendshipwith the readers, so I'm one of
their professors and when Iteach future church planters I
(26:41):
see zeal to reach new Roma group, new Roma community.
They're planning to open, Ithink, 500 churches in the next
10 years and they want to haveon every small Roma community to
have evangelical church.
That is something wonderful.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Praise God Now.
New churches require newleaders, so how do you train the
leaders to be the new pastorsof these churches?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Usually here through Bible school With Roma community
.
They Usually here through Bibleschool, like with Roma
community.
They have their Roma Bibleschool.
That is, I think, two yearsprogram.
They have one here on Balkanand one in German because we
have a lot of our Roma peoplethere.
So we teach like one month heresomewhere on Balkan and one
(27:34):
month we're teaching in GermanySame subject, so they train them
for basic information.
Later they usually go touniversity in Croatia.
They have good programs.
So we try to organize differentschools to equip churches.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And what about for Serbian church leaders?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
For us, it's okay to go in Croatia If they want to
have theological education.
In this moment, Nošek is anexcellent university, Really
good.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So we need to pray for the start of new churches
and for more Christians inSerbia to feel the call to be
the leaders and start thesechurches.
How can we pray personally foryou, Bera, you and Mira?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
This is a difficult question.
I have some, but you ask me.
I have some health issues nowin this moment and I will have
operation in the next month.
They find me some changes inthe kidneys and, thanks God,
that was miracle, that was fine,so early stage.
So but you know it's not easyfor us.
(28:49):
I'm really thankful God.
This is all God told me you.
It's a miracle that we findthis so early and probably is
nothing dangerous but can bedangerous.
So that is really personal wellPastor.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Vera, you are way too valuable in the perspective of
God's kingdom, and I know he isthe ultimate healer, he's the
great physician.
In fact, I'm going to ask allof our listeners right now to
join me in prayer as we pray foryou right now, lord Jesus.
We just thank you, father, thatyou have your servant in Serbia
(29:30):
, in the Balkan region, who issold out to you wholeheartedly.
We thank you for his work andfor his ministry, serbia and the
Balkan region, who is sold outto you wholeheartedly.
We thank you for his work andfor his ministry and what he has
already accomplished throughhis church in Novi Sad.
All the outreaches, father,these addicts who are finding
freedom in you because of hiscalling and his ministry, lord.
(29:51):
So we lift to you right now hishealth, father, and his
ministry, lord.
So we lift to you right now hishealth, father, we lift to you
the surgery that is taking place, father, and we speak your
complete and total healing,father.
We know that you are the greatphysician, father, and whether
you choose to heal him throughsurgery or by your miraculous
touch, we give you praise andglory for Pastor Bearer's health
(30:13):
and long years of life andservice to you.
Lord Jesus, we ask for yourprovision over him, father, in
everything that he does.
Lord, Let everything his handstouch prosper and flourish.
Lord Jesus, we speak yourencouragement over him, father,
your strength over him, your joyand your peace over him and his
(30:34):
family and his ministry, and weask this in the mighty name of
Jesus.
Amen, amen, thank you.
Thank you so much for thisconversation.
We can't wait to be with younext year and join forces once
again in bringing the gospel,bringing Jesus, his love and his
(30:56):
freedom to Serbia.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
While it is noble to love your country, philippians
3.20 reminds us of our truecitizenship, which means not
only our own country matters,but so do those far removed from
us by distance and culture,even those that may not be
friendly to our own.
When we allow nationalism todominate our emotions, we hinder
(31:27):
the well-being of our ownnation.
This is a very importantreminder for each of us.
The gospel is the only solutionto conflicts and issues that
seem unsolvable, and the GreatCommission calls each of us to
step out of our comfort zones,leaving behind the familiar, so
that people across the world canbecome citizens of God's
(31:50):
kingdom and be equipped to builda better future in their own
countries.
God's kingdom and be equippedto build a better future in
their own countries.
Perhaps today's conversationabout Serbia has stirred
something in your heart.
If you are a follower of Christ,consider whether Christ's
invitation to make disciples isfor you.
Visit our website, rfwmaorg, todiscover how you can get
involved through short-termmissions.
(32:10):
Again, the website is rfwmaorg.
To discover how you can getinvolved through short-term
missions.
Again, the website is rfwmaorg.
And please don't forget to prayfor Serbia and for Pastor Bera.
Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
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If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called his followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(32:52):
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Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, where we discuss topics
that matter to followers ofChrist, especially those
pursuing their greater purposein Jesus.
Today, we focus on the Balkans,specifically the nation of
Serbia.
You might recognize Serbiabecause of the famous inventor
Nikola Tesla or the tennisplayer Novak Djokovic.
(00:37):
However, serbia and the Balkansare associated often with
unresolvable ethnic conflictsand the tragic consequences of
extreme nationalism.
Serbia, particularly during thebloody Balkan Wars of the 1990s
, has often been cast in anegative light as an aggressor
(00:59):
and a cruel military opponent.
Today, my guest is a Serbianpastor who is loved and
respected throughout the Balkanregion, despite the ongoing
hatred and conflicts among theBalkan countries.
He shares important insightsinto the conflict, discusses the
relationship betweennationalism and Christianity and
(01:20):
explores the only way theBalkan conflict can be resolved.
We also talk about thespiritual destiny of his country
, serbia, and explores the onlyway the Balkan conflict can be
resolved.
We also talk about thespiritual destiny of his country
, serbia.
Hello, pastor Bera.
Welcome to the Limitless Spiritpodcast for the second time.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
It's my pleasure.
Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm really glad to join you in this conversation.
I'm really excited to talk toyou today because when God put
this vision and desire onChuck's heart to come to the
Balkan region, you were thefirst person that Chuck felt
like God wanted us to partnerwith.
And I don't think it's anaccident because now that we
(02:11):
have traveled, you know, acrossthe Balkans and different
countries, you're one of themost popular and most loved and
respected pastors in the Balkanregion.
So not a coincidence, butdefinitely God's guidance.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
No, I have many friends.
I try to make friendships.
So that is the main reason,because I really like to make
friendships and connections.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It's not easy, though you know, and we'll talk a
little bit about the history inthe Balkans and the relationship
between the Balkan countries.
I think it's quite remarkablethat you are able to achieve
this friendship and even loveand admiration from the people
in other Balkan countries,because the history of this
(02:56):
region is quite painful and isstill very tense the
relationship between thecountries, and you know the more
that we have traveled andworked around the Balkans.
I believe that maybe this isthe reason and this is more of a
question to you maybe this isthe reason, you know that pain
(03:18):
and maybe animosity even.
Could this be the reason thatChristianity, meaning
evangelical Christianity, is notspreading faster across these
nations?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Oh yeah, that is the main reason.
That is the main reason andsome historical influence.
That's happened because of war.
So when we spoke about Balkansthe name of Balkans, showing how
this area is difficult for lifethat is Turkish word and
meaning land of honey and blood.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Really.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
When Ottomans came here, they gave this area that
name because they saw how thisland is fruitful, good for
living, but from other side somany wars and everything.
So they call this land of honeyand blood and that's what the
word balkan mean.
I thought it meant mountainsweet and uh and that, so that
(04:12):
is mixed uh, and even winstonchurchill called this area, uh,
like a bomb who is ready toexplode.
Because, uh, that is how I wasalways situation here, and
reason is because this is likedoor for europe.
Historically, this was all foreurope.
So when you look at this area,all tribes or nation who wanted
(04:36):
to come to europe from asia orafrica, they crossed through
balkan.
All tribes who wanted to go toAsia, to other direction, this
was again their way to Asia.
And all tribes who came fromthe area of Russia, from steppes
of Russia again, this was doorfor Europe.
(04:56):
So this was constantly placewhere was conflict between
different tribes, differentnations?
When you look at my city, noviSad, there was a conflict
between different tribes,different nations.
Even when you look at my city,novi Sad, and the history of
Novi Sad until the last twocenturies, before that, every 50
, 60 years was a different tribewho lived here.
(05:18):
So every 50, 60, 100 years wasa different nation, different
tribe who conquered this land,took from others and was nation,
different tribe who conqueredthis land, take from other and
was constantly, constantly war.
That is reason why it's a landof honey and blood and through
centuries we learn to fightagainst each other.
So that is century of constantwars, war, constant revenge.
(05:43):
And one of the reasons why wefight was religion.
Again, this is like border areaof Europe and through Balkan,
going line between Catholicismand Orthodoxy.
So this was like border betweenthese two influences and they
fight between each other.
And later Islam came like thirdfactor and that was constant
(06:07):
fight between each other.
And later Islam came like thirdfactor and that was constant
fight between these threereligion on influence here.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
So Islam Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
I have a question.
You said that the reason forthese wars was religion, but at
the same time, there is aperspective that the reason for
these wars was the fight fornational identity, in which
religion was used as the meansof creating that national
(06:37):
identity between the tribes.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
But that is connected here.
Here national identity isstrictly aligned with the
religion.
So, like Serbs are OrthodoxCroats, they are Catholic
Bosnians, they are MuslimMacedonians, they are Orthodox
Greeks, they are OrthodoxAlbanians, especially in Kosovo,
(07:01):
especially on Kosovo, they areMuslims.
So that was an important partof national identity and again,
that has deep historical reason.
Especially in the time of thiswar and later in the Ottoman
occupation, so many people whoaccept Islam were treated like
(07:23):
traitors from other their nationand they bring even bigger
division between us, especiallylike Serb and Bosnian.
We speak same language, we havesame names and only what is
different between Serb andBosnian is religion, nothing
else.
Culture is same, everything issame, only this religion.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What about Croats and Serbs?
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Again, only religion.
Same language, differentbetween names, but not big.
We can understand each other.
We speak the same language, wehave the same culture, but the
difference was religion.
They are Catholics, serbs areOrthodox.
They are Catholics, serbs are.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Orthodox, so the only foundation for the national
identity of these countries.
Now, the Greeks.
They're distinctly different,though, because their language
is different, you know.
So they would be considered adifferent ethnic group.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Between Greek is language Language.
They're Orthodox like Serbs.
But you have a conflict betweenthem and Albanians.
That is mainly a question ofreligion and other factor of
conflict is historical.
You know that some don't wantto accept that other nations
different from them, like thatis between Bulgarian and
(08:43):
Macedonian, bulgarian willalways say Macedonia.
Or Bulgarian and Macedonianwill say no, we are different.
So it's again complicatedBalkan things, mix of different
historical influence.
Or Greek will always sayMacedonian nation don't exist.
(09:03):
That is Greek nation.
You know who speaks Slaviclanguage.
So again one more factor forfight.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So this is interesting, though, you know,
there are significantdifferences between Christianity
and Islam If we look at thedistinctions between Catholicism
and Eastern Orthodoxy.
In essence, these are bothChristian religions, and so
seemingly there shouldn't besuch a great conflict between
(09:36):
the people that follow thisreligion.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
So then, that is logic but not practice.
That is logic, but not practice.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well then, the next step from that would be, if you
look at what Christianityimplores us to do and to be,
there shouldn't be room for thistype of conflict that produces
bloody wars and everything thathas happened in the Balkans.
So what would, in your opinion,would be the solution to that
(10:10):
situation, because, obviously,politically, there is no
solution.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
No solution, yes.
So first, I think mix ofreligion and national identity
is toxic.
Really, it's important toseparate from that narrative,
you know.
So for me that was the mainreason why I am evangelical,
because I really didn't likethat national feeling in the
(10:35):
orthodoxy or in Catholicism.
So if they understand that weare brothers, that is the
solution.
They will stop to fight eachother.
But if they treat themselveslike heretics, you know between
themselves, they will fightagainst them because they are
your enemy.
I think that is important, butI don't see that as possible
(10:57):
really in Orthodoxy or inCatholicism.
That will never happen withthem.
Only when some big miracle, Idon't know revival, if this
happened, but in this moment, no.
If you listen, like everyEaster leaders of the church
will have their Easter sermonand more than half is political.
(11:23):
They speak against Croats, likein Serbia, speak against Croats
, like in Serbia, speak againstCroats against Albanians.
So a lot of politics and smallamount of Christianity.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Well, something interesting that you said that
the mix of religion and nationalidentity is toxic.
I think this is a veryimportant subject, even for
Americans, and specificallyAmerican Christians.
So would you say thatnationalism in itself is bad and
(11:55):
incompatible with trueChristianity?
What is your opinion?
I don't think there's a rightor wrong answer here.
So what is your opinion as apastor?
So what is?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
your opinion.
As a pastor, I'm trying to makedifference between patriotism
and nationalism.
We try to make difference.
One is to love your nation andother things when you think that
you are better than others.
So nationalism is more thanlove.
You think that you are betterthan others and what is the
(12:27):
consequence?
That others are lower than you,not worthy like you, and that
is really toxic, toxic message.
When you treat others likelower grade, you're ready to
make some evil things to thembecause they are not worthy and
so yeah, so I can saynationalism, how I think is, is
(12:49):
very bad.
But to love your nation, thatis good, but you don't treat
others like somebody who isthere are so many more questions
to this conversation, but Iwant us to talk about Serbia.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So I don't want to go on the rabbit trail, but you
know we have a year of electionand it's really a very touchy
subject, you know, and I wouldlove to have a whole other
conversation about that.
So I know you are a patriot ofthis country.
You're a true patriot of yourcountry, of Serbia.
So, for people who are notfamiliar with Serbia, what would
(13:27):
you think are the mostimportant things they should
know about your country?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
This is a beautiful country, but, like all Balkans,
it's a mix of blood and honey.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I love that mix of blood and honey.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
When you look at people who are famous, they are
always ready to fight.
Our famous sport is NovDjokovic, and when you look at
his tennis match, he alwaysfights to the last breath.
You know, and usually changesthe direction of the match, and
(14:08):
that is with all our spouse.
So so we are.
We are warriors nation.
I can say that this, that issomething that is our, our
characteristic here.
Nature is beautiful, a lot ofhistory.
This is area where, throughcenturies, so many things happen
, like 16 caesars.
(14:29):
Roman was born here in Serbia,in this area, where is Serbia
now?
Around my city, nine of them InSerbia was born in the time
that this was Roman Roman Empire, but was born great Constantine
, who made this toleration toChristians, stopped persecution,
(14:49):
kiro Zatila, the great whip ofGod.
Mongols, huns you can find someinfluence here in this area.
So a lot of differentinfluences and a mix of
different nations.
In Serbia there don't live onlySerbs, but many others like
(15:13):
Slovak, Hungarian, albanians,croats, bosnians, I don't know.
I think 22 ethnic groups wholived here for centuries.
So that is typical here forBalkan, this mix of different
tribes.
Religiously, 85% will say theyare Orthodox.
(15:35):
They are not churchgoers.
Less than 1% will go inOrthodox Church, 5% are Catholic
, 3% are Muslim and less than 1%will say they are Protestant.
Evangelical Christian is lessthan one percent will say
they're Protestant.
Evangelical Christian is lessthan 0.1 percent.
If you say that in Serbia livenow six and a half million
(15:58):
people less than 7,000, I thinkare evangelical, like newborn
believers Wow, that's a verysmall number.
Like newborn believers.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Wow, that's a very small number.
So let's talk about the trend.
Would you say that theevangelical Christianity came to
Serbia mostly at the fall ofcommunism?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
No, no, they came here before between two wars,
first and second.
Between two wars first andsecond.
So if you spoke aboutPentecostals, I think three or
four years after Azusa, thefirst Pentecostal church was
opened here in Vojvodina.
About this longer here, I thinkthat I don't know 150 or 200
(16:42):
years here.
So because this is a lot of mixof different nations, usually
groups who were persecutedsomewhere here was possible to
find some peace, but growth ofevangelical Christianity
happened after the fall ofcommunism.
So I can say, maybe in theformer Yugoslavia, maybe maybe
(17:06):
was a few thousand evangelicalbelievers, and after the fall of
communism it was different.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So then there was that growth, but then it slowed
down.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, because of war.
So in the same time whencommunism slowed down, here war
started, and that is differentwhen you compare with other
Eastern European countries whohad in that time huge revival.
Here revival started and wasstopped by war.
So we stay on that numberbecause of war.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Well, the war now has been over for 30 years, 20
years, 30.
30 years.
So what is happeningspiritually in Serbia today?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
On some level.
For us it's never over here inBalkan.
So hate is still deep.
When you travel to Bosnia, youcan feel that, because in Bosnia
Serbs cross Muslims and theyhate each other.
Kosovo is the same exampleBetween Serbs and Albanians
there is deep hate.
So I can say that we are in thesame example.
Between Serbs and Albaniansthere is deep hate.
So I think I can say that weare in the frozen conflict and
(18:13):
the only reason that here ispeace, I think because you are
forced to be in peace,especially in Bosnia and Kosovo.
So that is one reason whatspiritually happened I can speak
about evangelical ChristiansNumber is going down.
Why?
Because many emigrate to Europeand America.
(18:36):
I think number is around 5,000that we need.
So for church, who was like10,000 people big when you lost
5,000, that was devastating andmany of the people were leaders
or young people.
So I can say that we arenumbers going down.
We're slowly recovering now.
(18:58):
What is good is that in someareas there were no churches
before.
Now we have churches and we arevery active in the mission.
That is very positive.
We try to open churches inevery city and more and more
churches are opening, butcentral Serbia, especially
before.
It was no, no, absolutely noevangelical Christian there.
(19:20):
Slowly we are starting withsome mission in the Muslim part.
The name of that part is Sanjak.
It's five big cities there.
Then you go there.
It's like Saudi Arabia.
It's not big difference.
It's very strict Muslim.
But slowly we started there.
So that is positive.
(19:42):
We are very active in the inthe work with the group who are
vulnerable underprivilegedcommunities yeah, that is good
word, yeah, yeah, yeah, I knowlike for our church.
We are church of 200 people herein novi sad, but our government
, government, novi sad, told usthat we are solving around 30
(20:03):
percent of all emergencysituation in novi sad.
We we were shocked, you know.
So for homeless people who losttheir homes, something.
So this small church, 200people, 30% of all intervention
in the city we saw and helpedpeople.
Or with drug addicts hugechurches are very active with
(20:28):
helping drug addicts.
This spring I was in governmentwe have special office who are
fighting against drug addictionin Serbia and they invite all
organization for Serbia two orthree times in the year when we
have like strategic meeting whatto do in the future, and on
that meeting was maybe 40 peopleand 25 or 30 was evangelical
(20:53):
Christian.
So I can say that evangelicalChristians do the biggest job in
helping drug addicts andstopping addiction.
Now the church is very activein fighting against gambling
because that is like a hugedisease now in this area.
(21:15):
So that is very positive.
So with Roma community, again,that is a big miracle what the
church do there, because herethey are very marginalized and
only who opened doors for themare evangelicals and that
influenced all communities,cities.
(21:36):
You know, if it's Roma churchin some city, children are
educated, they're finishingschool, they have health
insurance.
Everything is, you know, ingood order.
You know, if it's not churchthere, they live in slums area.
So I can say that it's likesome spiritual picture.
(21:59):
We are small but very active.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I think you are a phenomenal example to any church
around the world where you knownot only you share the word,
but you also address thecommunity needs in action, and
these actions speak forthemselves to the outsiders, and
so that's why you're so lovedand respected in the communities
(22:27):
even outside of Serbia, becauseyou are literally being what
the church is called to do Notonly preach the love of Christ,
but show the love of Christ.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Oh, yeah, that is our calling.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Essentially, I believe that this is what's
going to help bridge that gap,you know, between the
evangelical Christians and thecultural perception of what
evangelical Christians are.
Because, you know, often incountries where Eastern
Orthodoxy is a predominantreligion, there is a negative
(23:02):
view of evangelical Christiansand maybe even perception of
evangelical Christianity being acult.
Does that exist in Serbia?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Oh yeah, yeah, Even more than in other countries.
When there was war in 93, 94,and 95, here was really big
persecution because evangelicalChristians we had really good
connection with the West, so oneof the enemies of our country
was evangelicals.
(23:32):
So it was really hard periodfor us.
In the state news they spokethat we were drinking blood,
that we sacrificed children,that we were taking property, we
were part of the archers.
We will take all your propertyfrom you.
So, many, many terrible lies.
(23:54):
They spoke about Satanisticcult and mentioned our names in
that context.
It was really difficult andthere was constantly attack on
our buildings or on our people.
Many, many was arrestedConstantly.
Secret police come to ourmeetings and now it's better, so
(24:15):
it's not anymore officialpersecution, but that picture
stays in the mind of people.
So we are not only sect or cultbut we are dangerous.
You know, if you come here, whoknows what can happen to you.
So that is a big problem for us.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
So how should we pray for Serbia?
What are the main points thatyou would think we should lift
to God as we pray for thebreakthrough and revival of
Christianity in Serbia?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
For me, you know, this opening of new churches is
really really big miracle.
I mean our church.
Now we are active in four orfive places.
We have in our network ofchurches, protestant Christian
Fellowship, one church in thecenter of Serbia.
They have small groups, I don'tknow, five or six cities around
(25:11):
villages.
So really good things happening.
And I see in the, when I seepicture from the baptism on the
social network, I see the numberof people who was baptized
growing and interesting, many ofthem coming to Christ through
videos on the YouTube, even fromAmerica.
You know we have a few peoplein the church who became
(25:32):
Christian through internet andlater they find, oh, you know,
it have a few people in thechurch who became Christian
through the internet and laterthey find, oh, you know, it's
not a church like that.
So they become part of us.
So pray for that.
You know.
I think in our context it islike revival, because new
churches are born, things arehappening.
This work with the drug addictsis a huge blessing for us
(25:55):
because they accept Christ.
That is what we do in the rehabcenter.
We give them Christ, a messageof hope, and later many of them
becoming leaders of the churches.
That is a fountain of influencein this area.
That is really good things.
(26:16):
So pray for that, or work withRoma.
That is really, again,something that is so wonderful
to see.
I teach in their schools and Idon't speak Roma language, but I
have really good friendshipwith the readers, so I'm one of
their professors and when Iteach future church planters I
(26:41):
see zeal to reach new Roma group, new Roma community.
They're planning to open, Ithink, 500 churches in the next
10 years and they want to haveon every small Roma community to
have evangelical church.
That is something wonderful.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Praise God Now.
New churches require newleaders, so how do you train the
leaders to be the new pastorsof these churches?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Usually here through Bible school With Roma community
.
They Usually here through Bibleschool, like with Roma
community.
They have their Roma Bibleschool.
That is, I think, two yearsprogram.
They have one here on Balkanand one in German because we
have a lot of our Roma peoplethere.
So we teach like one month heresomewhere on Balkan and one
(27:34):
month we're teaching in GermanySame subject, so they train them
for basic information.
Later they usually go touniversity in Croatia.
They have good programs.
So we try to organize differentschools to equip churches.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And what about for Serbian church leaders?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
For us, it's okay to go in Croatia If they want to
have theological education.
In this moment, Nošek is anexcellent university, Really
good.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So we need to pray for the start of new churches
and for more Christians inSerbia to feel the call to be
the leaders and start thesechurches.
How can we pray personally foryou, Bera, you and Mira?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
This is a difficult question.
I have some, but you ask me.
I have some health issues nowin this moment and I will have
operation in the next month.
They find me some changes inthe kidneys and, thanks God,
that was miracle, that was fine,so early stage.
So but you know it's not easyfor us.
(28:49):
I'm really thankful God.
This is all God told me you.
It's a miracle that we findthis so early and probably is
nothing dangerous but can bedangerous.
So that is really personal wellPastor.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Vera, you are way too valuable in the perspective of
God's kingdom, and I know he isthe ultimate healer, he's the
great physician.
In fact, I'm going to ask allof our listeners right now to
join me in prayer as we pray foryou right now, lord Jesus.
We just thank you, father, thatyou have your servant in Serbia
(29:30):
, in the Balkan region, who issold out to you wholeheartedly.
We thank you for his work andfor his ministry, serbia and the
Balkan region, who is sold outto you wholeheartedly.
We thank you for his work andfor his ministry and what he has
already accomplished throughhis church in Novi Sad.
All the outreaches, father,these addicts who are finding
freedom in you because of hiscalling and his ministry, lord.
(29:51):
So we lift to you right now hishealth, father, and his
ministry, lord.
So we lift to you right now hishealth, father, we lift to you
the surgery that is taking place, father, and we speak your
complete and total healing,father.
We know that you are the greatphysician, father, and whether
you choose to heal him throughsurgery or by your miraculous
touch, we give you praise andglory for Pastor Bearer's health
(30:13):
and long years of life andservice to you.
Lord Jesus, we ask for yourprovision over him, father, in
everything that he does.
Lord, Let everything his handstouch prosper and flourish.
Lord Jesus, we speak yourencouragement over him, father,
your strength over him, your joyand your peace over him and his
(30:34):
family and his ministry, and weask this in the mighty name of
Jesus.
Amen, amen, thank you.
Thank you so much for thisconversation.
We can't wait to be with younext year and join forces once
again in bringing the gospel,bringing Jesus, his love and his
(30:56):
freedom to Serbia.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
While it is noble to love your country, philippians
3.20 reminds us of our truecitizenship, which means not
only our own country matters,but so do those far removed from
us by distance and culture,even those that may not be
friendly to our own.
When we allow nationalism todominate our emotions, we hinder
(31:27):
the well-being of our ownnation.
This is a very importantreminder for each of us.
The gospel is the only solutionto conflicts and issues that
seem unsolvable, and the GreatCommission calls each of us to
step out of our comfort zones,leaving behind the familiar, so
that people across the world canbecome citizens of God's
(31:50):
kingdom and be equipped to builda better future in their own
countries.
God's kingdom and be equippedto build a better future in
their own countries.
Perhaps today's conversationabout Serbia has stirred
something in your heart.
If you are a follower of Christ,consider whether Christ's
invitation to make disciples isfor you.
Visit our website, rfwmaorg, todiscover how you can get
involved through short-termmissions.
(32:10):
Again, the website is rfwmaorg.
To discover how you can getinvolved through short-term
missions.
Again, the website is rfwmaorg.
And please don't forget to prayfor Serbia and for Pastor Bera.
Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called his followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(32:52):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!