June 1, 2025 • 29 mins
Cultivating Spiritual Growth: A Journey with Dina van Klaveren
Join Jon and Lauren as they welcome the Rev. Dina van Klaveren, an Episcopal priest with a rich history in parish ministry, now serving on the diocesan staff in Maryland. Dina discusses her journey from parish ministry to her current role, her passion for development and stewardship, and her dedication to congregational vitality. She shares insights into the breadth of ministry across the diocese, her personal spiritual practices, and her transformative experience as a Master Gardener. Dina's discussion highlights the importance of humility, intentionality, and gentle stewardship of our environment.
00:00 Welcome and Introduction
00:11 Dina's Journey in Ministry
00:48 New Role and Responsibilities
02:51 Surprises and Challenges
05:11 Personal Joys and Practices
14:07 Gardening and Spirituality
26:37 Final Thoughts and Advice
Resources mentioned by Dina:
"Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Life-Changing Tools for Healthy Relationships" by Marshall Rosenberg https://a.co/d/bNWi1Mz
"Nature's Best Hope: A New Approach to Conservation That Starts in Your Yard" by Douglas W. Tallamy https://a.co/d/etfcAE7
"How Can I Help?: Saving Nature with Your Yard" by Douglas W. Tallamy https://a.co/d/5cXkZjx
"Native Plants for Wildlife Habitat and Conservation Landscaping (Color Print): Chesapeake Bay Watershed" https://a.co/d/i0Qk2GR
The Episcopal Diocese of Maryland: https://episcopalmaryland.org/
Audio version of this episode is available at podcast platforms linked to https://listening-for-clues.captivate.fm/listen
The Good News! podcast series is part of the ListeningforClues portfolio. Catch us at https://listeningforclues.com/
© 2025 Listening for Clues
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lynn Shematek (00:00):
Hello, friends.
What does it mean to grow somethingsacred, whether it's a congregation,
a garden, or your own spiritual life?
Join us as we sit down with the ReverendDina van Klaveren, Episcopal priest and
diocesan leader and master gardener,whose story is a gentle but profound
(00:20):
reminder that faith grows best when it'srooted in humility, intention, and care.
I am Lynn Shematek of the Good News teamwith Deacons, Jon Shematek and Lauren
Welch, where hope is always in season.
Jon Shematek (00:38):
Dina van Klaveren, welcome to our podcast.
Good News!!.
We're so glad you're with us today.
Dina van Klaveren (00:45):
I am so glad to be with you.
Thanks for having me, Jon and Lauren.
Jon Shematek (00:49):
We're really been looking forward to having you, Dina, and we'd
like to get to know you a little bit moreand find out what's important to you.
And I see you're wearing a collar andI know you're an Episcopal priest,
and that you were, ordained in 2007.
So you are.
Close to or already into your18th anniversary of ordination?
(01:12):
Yes.
You were a parish priest for a number ofyears now you're on the diocesan staff.
So tell us anything you'd like us toknow about you, Dina van Klaveren.
Dina van Klaveren (01:20):
Thank you and thanks for doing the math for me.
that's really helpful and it's niceto think back to those early days.
I serve now on diocesan staff inthe Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.
I am delighted to support our newBishop Carrie Schofield-Broadbent in
her ministry around the diocese my area.
(01:41):
at the moment is development andstewardship and congregational
vitality, and it's been really fun todo something new and different after
15 years in parish ministry at St.
Andrews, Glenwood, and a few yearsbefore that in Annapolis as a curate.
I started this position abouta year and three months ago.
(02:03):
It was right after my 50thbirthday, and it was really nice.
At the age of 50 to do somethingtotally new and different and exciting
and support the ministry and missionof our diocese, which has been
really good and challenging work.
Jon Shematek (02:19):
Yeah, these have been really exciting times since Bishop
Carrie, has arrived and we're all justin a whole new world anyway, but all the
wonderful, developments and, innovationsthat we're doing in the diocese, I'm
just wondering if this position is.
I don't know if it's a newposition or not, are you're
inventing it as you're going on.
Dina van Klaveren (02:38):
I probably am, because it's fairly new for me,
although it taps into some work thatI've been able to do in the past.
while as a parish priest or chair ofthe Board of Claggett, I've helped
with capital campaigns and lots ofstewardship and fundraising efforts,
this work is a little differentin that it supports, a breadth of
(03:00):
ministry areas across the diocese.
Through the Bishop's Appeal it alsoresources, congregations that are
facing new and different challengesaround stewardship, membership, how
people give, planned giving challengesthere have been people in the role of
director of development in the past.
Bishop Carrie reimagined the rolein a really comprehensive way.
(03:24):
And, that's got its challengesand blessings for sure.
Lauren Welch (03:30):
what has surprised you the most, in this last year in this position?
Dina van Klaveren (03:34):
Lauren, what surprises me is the breadth of ministry across
our diocese that I was not aware of.
I've had the opportunity as a diocesanstaff person of looking at the parochial
reports and thinking about ministryand mission across the whole diocese,
all 10 counties and Baltimore City.
It's really inspiring.
(03:55):
There are so many ministries that Ididn't know about, children that are
being fed in parts of the diocese.
every weekend 200 plus childrenare getting backpacks full of
food from one congregation.
There's, a congregation that'ssupporting along with other congregations
in their area, 900 children.
(04:17):
For lunch every summer day.
it gives me the chills.
I just got the chills.
When you think about the expanse, thebreadth, the depth, the fullness of the
ministry that we share as a diocese, Ifeel very up close and personal to the
deep spiritual generosity of our diocese.
In this role, I celebrate thatand give thanks to God for that.
(04:39):
then I get to ask people to begenerous to give more and in new ways.
And again this year for things likeSutton Scholars and Camp Claggett
and all the things that, we careabout as a community of love.
It's wonderful.
I'm, there's disappointing days wherewe didn't get the grant and then there's
really upbeat days where somebody callsand says, yes, I, I do wanna support that.
(05:00):
I wanna write a check for ahundred dollars or $10,000.
gifts at so many levels are generous.
Jon Shematek (05:07):
Dina, I just love the positive that came out I was guessing
we might be hearing more aboutobstacles in these troubled times.
it's wonderful to hear all thisaffirmation about the great work
being done across the diocese.
some of that's a pretty well kept secret.
that's why we're doing Good News!!
To find and spread that news around.
that must be so heartwarming,as you've suggested
Dina van Klaveren (05:28):
Yeah, it is.
And I actually think There'sharm in not sharing it.
So we are sharing it as part ofthe Bishop's Appeal this spring and
throughout the year we are sharingall that data that we collect in the
Bishop's Appeal is getting put backtogether, tallied up and put back
together and fashioned into Good News!!
For the whole diocese.
folks should know more aboutit, in the months ahead.
Lauren Welch (05:49):
Is there anything in your life that brings you joy?
Dina van Klaveren (05:54):
I had, dinner yesterday with somebody who.
says that when he counts hisblessings before he goes to bed,
he often falls asleep beforehe is halfway through his list.
'cause his list is so long and I said,I, teased him and said, you're gonna have
to start at the bottom and go backwards.
I do this thing in my ownemotional and spiritual life
(06:15):
where I check how I'm feeling.
if the feelings are unpleasant, I learnedthis from Marshall Rosenberg in a book
called Nonviolent Communication, whichI highly recommend it's an old book.
A lot of people know it.
he.
Teaches us to scan ourselves for ourfeelings and our emotional content.
when the emotional content or feelingsare really unpleasant, they often point
(06:37):
to an unmet need he's got this list.
available online as a PDF download.
I've used it, for years and withmy young adult children now 22
and 19, I use this list to scanand say, what are my unmet needs?
How can I get those met appropriately?
And those needs that can't be metbecause that friend has died or that
(07:02):
is not available to me at this time.
Whatever it is, that's the Christianexperience of suffering and learning
how to suffer, with some compassionand gentleness for myself and those
around me, and, connect with all theresources I need when I'm suffering.
What's bringing, me joy right now isso many things because I do the scan
(07:23):
and I don't have a lot of unmet needs.
I am not pleased with everythingthat's going on in the world.
I'm not getting what I want.
In lots of areas I would make a lot ofdemands on things that are not happening.
However, those things that are within mysphere of control in my household in my
workplace and in my community of friendsand family, I have so many blessings
(07:48):
and so many of my needs are being met.
Jon Shematek (07:51):
Dina, is that something you would.
That exercise that you go throughlooking at, your blessings and so on.
And I we'll definitely have, we'llmake a note in our, our show notes
about the book that you mentioned.
is that sort of exercise or practice,something that you think would benefit
many people, if not all of 'em?
Dina van Klaveren (08:08):
I keep the PDF, I have all these files on my
laptop 'cause I want everythingto be organized and tucked away.
Except I keep a couple pictures of myfamily, my kids always available for me.
And this PDF, I think it's fourpage PDF of all the different
feelings, all the unmet needs.
So I can scan it and check in,especially when I'm feeling really angst.
(08:31):
Or stuck.
I need to get unstuck sometimes.
so I'll go to the PDF and read throughit and I find what it is that I need
to work on, but on the way I realizehow many areas of my life are in good
shape, how many blessings I do have.
Lauren Welch (08:50):
And it sounds like that helps you deepen your spirituality.
Dina van Klaveren (08:54):
Yes.
absolutely.
It teaches me spiritually, itteaches me accountability or agency.
it's a bit like an Ignatian Examen.
Where do I need to inviteGod to help me do some work?
So if I have a need for, health,if there's something in my health
that's not quite lining up, I'm notfeeling good, this happens to me
(09:15):
as a native Southern Californianin the winter, I get the blahs.
I think other peopleget the blahs and worse.
but I just get into this funk whereI'm numbing with TV or on my phone
especially when, I'm not happy withother things happening in the world.
I might start doom scrolling andgetting riled, and then I'm staying up
(09:36):
late because my energy's getting ampedup, but I really need to go to bed.
And so when I have an area like my healthor my sleep patterns that I need to
work on, then this unmet needs list canidentify for me where I need to journal
and talk with God and pray and ask forsome divine intervention, some help.
Jon Shematek (09:58):
Dina, I'm wondering, you're a priest.
Lauren and I are deacons.
obviously we're all Episcopalians,and so this message really
resonates, pretty strongly.
now some of our viewers andlisteners are, probably spiritual.
everyone's got a spirituallife no matter what they think.
it sounds like this really appliesacross the board, whether you
(10:18):
have a belief system or not.
Dina van Klaveren (10:20):
I think one thing that the Christian belief system does
help many of us with is claiming theright amount of agency, understanding
where we start and stop, and where wetrust in something larger than ourselves
that I use language like God for.
When I get really clear about unmetneeds and what Dina needs to do,
(10:44):
and then get really clear about.
What I can't do, what I don't have controlover, what I need to entrust to God.
then I can back away, from sometimeshaving a grip on something and relax
and learn my kids are both in collegeone is 35 miles away and one is, Many
states away learning to trust yourchildren into God's care and the care
(11:08):
of those good people around them.
learning how to trust your children intheir own care to care for themselves.
is a kind of spiritual disciplinethat whether we are practicing a
faith or not, requires some tending.
Jon Shematek (11:23):
Yeah, I'm also thinking about your transition from, parish
ministry and what that must havebeen like, into your new life.
I'm gathering you go from place to place,
Dina van Klaveren (11:34):
It's a very different rhythm I miss the deep relationships
I've had with people over 15 yearsof ministry together marrying people
baptizing their babies being withfamilies through losses and really
having a longer spiritual saga together.
I miss that.
yet there is something spirituallyfulfilling about driving around
(11:55):
not knowing what I'll findand getting into a new worship
space I've never been to before.
It's the joy of travel,rather than the joy of home.
being a rector in a place for 15 years,you've got that comfort, of home.
and it also is home.
Sometimes you're like, it's justhome, travel, can be weary and
(12:15):
oh no, I've gotta get there, I'vegotta plan, I've gotta prepare.
I don't know where I'm going.
and has some hassles involved.
And it also has the unknown.
Part of being a minister in a congregationfor a long time is that experience
of staying grounded and at home.
And what I'm enjoying right now is theitinerancy, the trust in whatever I find.
(12:41):
In fact, I'm learning now thatwhen I show up somewhere, It's
pretty much, 99% the same.
No matter if it's what we used tocall high church or low church, big
church, small church, city, country,those of us that have been doing this
ministry for a while, can walk in,scan the place and understand it.
And mostly the folks that are welcomingyou are trying to explain, we do it this
(13:06):
way, these wafers are for this, a lotof that is actually self-explanatory,
What I think is really interesting,and I thought this when I was a parish
rector, is that we each think thatour home is so special and unique and
different from all the other places.
they're all very much beautiful spacesthat people love and come together to
(13:30):
take care of each other and the worldaround them and to praise God together.
There's so much unity and similarityactually, between all of these homes.
It's a little bit like.
Traveling the world and seeing how peoplelive, there's a lot of similarities, even
if things are quite different visually.
So I guess deacons probablyknow that you're more itinerant.
You travel around and the bishopmight send you to different places.
(13:54):
a priest can get pretty cozyand grounded in a home base.
Jon Shematek (13:59):
Yeah, you're right.
I was, active in parish ministry, aswas Lauren, for much of, 30 years.
We were ordained together.
oh.
When was it Lauren?
19.
89.
89 Look long.
Oh my gosh.
Before so many people were born.
No.
but it is interesting and weget a little taste of that, what
you're talking about vicariously.
I served in seven parishes over30 years, so that was the norm.
(14:22):
Then and still is to some extent.
one of the things I'm enjoying with BishopCarrie is vicariously visiting with her,
her, and her social media every Yes.
Time, she's anywhere else.
You get a sense of that church.
And, it is a source of joy tosee the common life that we have,
in Christ and in the way that weworship and the way that we are.
(14:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
so Dina, I know you have things outside ofthe church that also give you, great joy.
is there one you can highlight forus and talk about a little bit?
Dina van Klaveren (14:55):
It's spring, so I have to talk about what's happening
outside this window in the yard.
I am a master gardener.
I became a master gardener duringCOVID because everything went online.
I could finally do it.
This is a strange story in a way.
I became a master gardenerbecause I wanted a really
beautiful master plan for my yard.
(15:16):
We have three and a half acres, andI wanted this kind of garden and that
kind of garden, and I wanted azaleas andrhododendrons, and I wanted pathways.
I've envisioned it so many different ways.
I thought if I take a master gardenercourse and become a master gardener,
I would at least along the way,develop the master plan for the
(15:37):
yard and then I could execute it.
That was the big plan.
I like to know how to doall the things in the yard.
by the grace of God, I passed,the Master Gardener Program.
soil science is really hard I wasn'tgreat in sciences, but I really
worked at it and tried to understandhow soil can actually make a plant
grow along with light, so forth.
(15:57):
and at the end of the day, I answeredthe questions right passed the exam,
but my real answer is God is amazingand makes things grow because the soil
science very, Intricate and difficult.
I enjoyed that very much, becamea master gardener and along the
way learned about invasive plants.
And when we learned about invasiveplants, it was really depressing.
(16:20):
it was like learning aboutsin oh, everything looks
great, and then you find out.
All the bad stuff.
I would go for a walk in the woods nearour home and I would start to see invasive
plants in the woods and it ruined walks,this is a drag now that I know too much.
that's a little bit like being human whenyou know too much about, human greed or
(16:43):
how ego gets in the way of things, pride.
Like sin.
It was very similar.
when you see those things, it can ruin it.
I know lots of folks who leavechurch because they saw sin somewhere
in the church and they left.
I determined I wasn'tgonna leave the woods.
Just because I saw the invasivesand so I volunteered to pull
(17:05):
invasives and, there's a lot to it.
And I volunteered to do that as partof my volunteering in Master Gardeners.
and the more I learned, I got introducedto somebody my family jokingly
called my Master Gardener boyfriend.
a professor at Universityof Delaware, Doug Tallamy.
(17:25):
He is a professor and and he haswritten this book, Nature's Best
Hope, which changed my life.
it changed my spiritual life aswell, I'll tell you about that.
And then I just got his new book.
This just was released and I got itin my hot little hands, called How Can
I Help Saving Nature With Your Yard.
And these two books along with NativePlants for Wildlife Habitat and
(17:47):
Conservation Landscaping here in Maryland.
You can see I've gotlots of tabs in there.
These are my go-to things rightnow for, my hobby out in the yard.
But, so here's what happened.
Instead of getting a masterplan, I became convicted.
I had a conversion experience.
In which I had to face a reallyugly truth about myself, which was
(18:08):
the reason I wanted a master planand a perfect lawn, was so that my
neighbors would think highly of me.
And that anyone who came on myproperty would say, "this is beautiful.
You are amazing people.
You're an amazing gardener."
you are, good people becauselook at your yard and your
beautiful lawn, all nice and neat.
(18:31):
And I think in a community like where Ilive on an old country road with lots of
houses that were built in the eighties andnineties, the lawn and cutting the lawn.
Is a way to communicate that wecare about our homes, that we care
about our neighborhood, if you will.
that we're decent 'cause we cut our grass.
we would worry when we wouldgo on vacation and not mow the
(18:53):
grass in the summer for 10 days.
we gotta get home and mowbefore the neighbors think
we've moved out or get cranky.
So a lot of the desire to keepyour yard nice has to do with
what other people think of you.
And I had this real awarenessand it reminded me of times
I've gone to a cocktail partyand I haven't been drinking.
(19:16):
I just.
Don't wanna drink anyalcohol at that party.
And people feel very uncomfortablewhen they're drinking and
you're saying, no thank you.
I'll just, I'll have, and you'll evenget something like soda in a glass
that looks like you have a cocktailso that people leave you alone
Jon Shematek (19:30):
maybe with a slice of lime in it.
Dina van Klaveren (19:32):
You're like tricking people.
This is really a cocktail, but you'rejust not drinking having a yard.
That's a little messier or not as tame.
Makes people anxious around you,makes your neighbors anxious.
it makes my husband a little anxious.
This is something we are trying to figureout, but what I realized is the more we
(19:52):
invest in pouring fossil fuels into atractor to spend hours of our time, which
is precious on our grass, so that it looksreally nice for the neighbors, that may
not be the best investment of a fossilfuels, b our time, and c, the land itself.
(20:13):
And so what I've learned fromDoug Tallamy is by keeping my
yard in a monoculture lawn, I'mactually harming the environment.
That monoculture of a non-nativegrass that is my yard is not
feeding the birds, the butterflies,all the insects we depend upon.
and how I'm getting around this withmy husband who would really like
(20:36):
everything to be very neat and tidy is.
He loves to feed the birdsin our backyard feeders.
once we understood that if we don'thave enough keystone trees and enough
native perennial plants in the yard totake care of some of the insects that
need to have their young in our yardin order to then feed the birds, we're
(20:57):
gonna lose population of birds in ourarea, birds that we love to look at.
And so this has led to awhole new wilding of our yard.
which if you come to visit me, you'llsee is a bit of a disaster zone.
It is not the master plan I wanted.
I've had to sacrifice.
this idea of prominence and my ownego among my neighbors, to let it
(21:23):
look a little messy, to leave theleaves all winter long and the stems
of the native perennials so thatthe pollinator babies can do what
they need to do over the winter.
I used to clear that all outand mulch again, and then I
learned it is already mulch.
It's the mulch.
some of the stuff that we get trickedinto thinking we need for our yards, for
(21:44):
our lives, it's really just people tryingto sell us stuff and keep us in a loop.
The piece that really gets me, thatI don't really hear people talking
about, and when I talk about it, peoplethink I'm crazy the more I learn about
how land has been used over time.
The more I come to understandthat I'm addicted to some very
(22:07):
weird notions of aristocracy.
And here we are in the EpiscopalChurch, which has bishops and priests
and deacons and roles and hierarchy.
And we think that servesthe kingdom of God.
That's why we have it.
And we also sometimes worshipthe hierarchy or the aristocracy
piece that's embedded in it ina way that's really unhealthy.
(22:30):
And I think we do this with our yards.
many years ago, the people that movedto this part of the world, Maryland, the
Mid-Atlantic were from parts of Englandthat had great lawns to show that they had
enough servants to keep those lawns cut.
they didn't have a lawn mower.
We have an electric one now.
It's really lovely.
They had people that they took advantageof and oppressed and made cut their
(22:54):
grass the longer the grass wentfrom the house down to where people
approached, the more wealthy you werebecause the more people you could
force into the labor of caring for it.
So when I want my lawn to look acertain way so that the approach
to my house is beautiful and Ilive in a colonial style home.
(23:15):
I am inheriting some of this colonialick around looking like an aristocrat
like little plantation owners.
It's really problematic because landfor most people at the time, was about
food, was about animals being ableto graze, and it was about growing.
The food they needed to eat.
(23:35):
It was not about impressing peopleon the approach to your stately home.
So for those of us that wannahave this stately grass in front
of our stately home or townhouse,we are inheriting this garbage.
around what the land is for and whatour yards are for, I am growing more
(23:56):
comfortable with turning the land.
I wanna have areas where we canplay soccer and ultimate Frisbee.
Don't get me wrong, I love grass for that.
I wanna be out there forEaster egg hunt this Easter.
We're gonna be out in the grass.
We're gonna always have somegrass to play on and picnic on.
And I'm getting more comfortable withwild areas in the yard that are not
wild with invasives, but are reallyintentionally native perennials
(24:21):
and native trees to restore habitatthat's been lost in the Mid-Atlantic.
And that's really what the DougTallamy books are teaching me.
So that's some of the work I'm stilldoing and thinking about I have come
to terms and I can admit that I'maddicted to this aristocratic notion
of, A stately approach to my home, downa driveway with a lawn that's really
(24:45):
green and gorgeous and cut neatly.
I'm trying to learn how to give upcaring what other people think, and do
what is right for God's planet more thando what will make my neighbors happy.
if any of my neighbors on my street happento see this will explain a lot to you.
Jon Shematek (25:05):
Yeah.
No, it explains a lot to me.
And I'm not one of your neighbors,but it's, you're a real evangelist
for Creation Care, and I reallyloved also what you said Dina.
to clarify, it clarified for me whenyou talked about the intentionality
of this is not just letting.
Dina van Klaveren (25:21):
Oh no,
Jon Shematek (25:22):
'cause as you said, what's gonna happen is the invasives
come in and that's all you've got.
isn't it just like our lives
Dina van Klaveren (25:28):
it's exactly.
'cause it is just like my own life.
I might create space for something thatI think is gonna be holy and good, and if
I'm not careful, something else might growin that space and my own spiritual life
in my soul and in my heart and in my mind.
and so it's got a lot of overlap.
and yet.
It's not a metaphor for me.
So while it can be a metaphor forspiritual life, the actual change
(25:53):
to my yard is a spiritual practice.
Allowing the grass.
there's something called "No Mow May"because you wanna let all the perennials
and the areas of your yard foster allthe life of all those baby insects
It's really hard not to mowuntil May or through May.
It's really hard to host a party at yourhouse and not have a really nice lawn.
(26:17):
not doing that is actuallya spiritual practice.
It's a faithfulness to God's callover what other people think.
Which is like the work of life,the work we're all doing in life.
Jon Shematek (26:29):
The other element that comes through to me so strongly in
what you're saying Dina, is humility.
it sounded so Franciscan in a way,that this is God's creation and
the way that we have managed to.
change things for appearance, isreally counter to that whole idea.
Totally.
So much food for thoughtand books for thought.
(26:50):
We'll put all those books in theshow notes so people can find them.
That's awesome.
Thanks for all that.
Dina van Klaveren (26:56):
Thanks
Lauren Welch (26:57):
That was wonderful because it, it not only shows what
you've learned through gardening, buthow your whole life is intertwined.
how your spiritual life your worklife and your living, is all one.
So thank you.
Dina van Klaveren (27:13):
Well said.
Jon Shematek (27:14):
Yeah.
Dina van Klaveren (27:14):
Yeah.
Jon Shematek (27:15):
Dina, I'm just thrilled that you've been with us today and
shared so much this was a reallyinteresting, exciting, voyage for me.
I always have to give Lauren anopportunity to bring up the last
topic or ask the last question.
Lauren, please do
Lauren Welch (27:31):
Dina.
You have shared so much wisdom today.
what would you like to leave our listenersand, people who are watching, what
advice would you like to leave them with?
Dina van Klaveren (27:45):
Several years ago, I was moving my parents from Arizona
to Maryland during the pandemic tobe closer to us as they were aging
I was thinking about how I'm gonnaneed some patience to do all that.
And another, a friend said, it'snot patience, it's gentleness.
So I would offer to people theword gentle, because the word
(28:06):
patience has never worked for me.
If I'm honest.
It makes me feel less patient.
But the word gentle transformshow I breathe, how I interact.
it transforms me and my wellbeing.
So I would like to leaveyour, community of Good News!!
(28:27):
With the word gentle.
In any area where we are strugglingor suffering or doing something
new or hard to really consciouslybe gentle touch, gentle gaze.
gentle words to seek some gentleness,and I think it goes in my experience
(28:51):
thus far in life, the longest way.
Thank you.
Thank you.
for having me today.
Jon Shematek (28:58):
Oh, thanks so much We appreciate it.
Lauren Welch (29:01):
You are welcome.
Jon and I want to thank those whoare watching and listening for
the gift of your time with us.
Until next time, peace and blessings.
Lynn Shematek (29:11):
This episode of Good News has been brought
to you by Listening for Clues.
For more podcasts, check outour YouTube channel or our
website listening for clues.com.
Hello, friends.
What does it mean to grow somethingsacred, whether it's a congregation,
a garden, or your own spiritual life?
Join us as we sit down with the ReverendDina van Klaveren, Episcopal priest and
diocesan leader and master gardener,whose story is a gentle but profound
(00:20):
reminder that faith grows best when it'srooted in humility, intention, and care.
I am Lynn Shematek of the Good News teamwith Deacons, Jon Shematek and Lauren
Welch, where hope is always in season.
Jon Shematek (00:38):
Dina van Klaveren, welcome to our podcast.
Good News!!.
We're so glad you're with us today.
Dina van Klaveren (00:45):
I am so glad to be with you.
Thanks for having me, Jon and Lauren.
Jon Shematek (00:49):
We're really been looking forward to having you, Dina, and we'd
like to get to know you a little bit moreand find out what's important to you.
And I see you're wearing a collar andI know you're an Episcopal priest,
and that you were, ordained in 2007.
So you are.
Close to or already into your18th anniversary of ordination?
(01:12):
Yes.
You were a parish priest for a number ofyears now you're on the diocesan staff.
So tell us anything you'd like us toknow about you, Dina van Klaveren.
Dina van Klaveren (01:20):
Thank you and thanks for doing the math for me.
that's really helpful and it's niceto think back to those early days.
I serve now on diocesan staff inthe Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.
I am delighted to support our newBishop Carrie Schofield-Broadbent in
her ministry around the diocese my area.
(01:41):
at the moment is development andstewardship and congregational
vitality, and it's been really fun todo something new and different after
15 years in parish ministry at St.
Andrews, Glenwood, and a few yearsbefore that in Annapolis as a curate.
I started this position abouta year and three months ago.
(02:03):
It was right after my 50thbirthday, and it was really nice.
At the age of 50 to do somethingtotally new and different and exciting
and support the ministry and missionof our diocese, which has been
really good and challenging work.
Jon Shematek (02:19):
Yeah, these have been really exciting times since Bishop
Carrie, has arrived and we're all justin a whole new world anyway, but all the
wonderful, developments and, innovationsthat we're doing in the diocese, I'm
just wondering if this position is.
I don't know if it's a newposition or not, are you're
inventing it as you're going on.
Dina van Klaveren (02:38):
I probably am, because it's fairly new for me,
although it taps into some work thatI've been able to do in the past.
while as a parish priest or chair ofthe Board of Claggett, I've helped
with capital campaigns and lots ofstewardship and fundraising efforts,
this work is a little differentin that it supports, a breadth of
(03:00):
ministry areas across the diocese.
Through the Bishop's Appeal it alsoresources, congregations that are
facing new and different challengesaround stewardship, membership, how
people give, planned giving challengesthere have been people in the role of
director of development in the past.
Bishop Carrie reimagined the rolein a really comprehensive way.
(03:24):
And, that's got its challengesand blessings for sure.
Lauren Welch (03:30):
what has surprised you the most, in this last year in this position?
Dina van Klaveren (03:34):
Lauren, what surprises me is the breadth of ministry across
our diocese that I was not aware of.
I've had the opportunity as a diocesanstaff person of looking at the parochial
reports and thinking about ministryand mission across the whole diocese,
all 10 counties and Baltimore City.
It's really inspiring.
(03:55):
There are so many ministries that Ididn't know about, children that are
being fed in parts of the diocese.
every weekend 200 plus childrenare getting backpacks full of
food from one congregation.
There's, a congregation that'ssupporting along with other congregations
in their area, 900 children.
(04:17):
For lunch every summer day.
it gives me the chills.
I just got the chills.
When you think about the expanse, thebreadth, the depth, the fullness of the
ministry that we share as a diocese, Ifeel very up close and personal to the
deep spiritual generosity of our diocese.
In this role, I celebrate thatand give thanks to God for that.
(04:39):
then I get to ask people to begenerous to give more and in new ways.
And again this year for things likeSutton Scholars and Camp Claggett
and all the things that, we careabout as a community of love.
It's wonderful.
I'm, there's disappointing days wherewe didn't get the grant and then there's
really upbeat days where somebody callsand says, yes, I, I do wanna support that.
(05:00):
I wanna write a check for ahundred dollars or $10,000.
gifts at so many levels are generous.
Jon Shematek (05:07):
Dina, I just love the positive that came out I was guessing
we might be hearing more aboutobstacles in these troubled times.
it's wonderful to hear all thisaffirmation about the great work
being done across the diocese.
some of that's a pretty well kept secret.
that's why we're doing Good News!!
To find and spread that news around.
that must be so heartwarming,as you've suggested
Dina van Klaveren (05:28):
Yeah, it is.
And I actually think There'sharm in not sharing it.
So we are sharing it as part ofthe Bishop's Appeal this spring and
throughout the year we are sharingall that data that we collect in the
Bishop's Appeal is getting put backtogether, tallied up and put back
together and fashioned into Good News!!
For the whole diocese.
folks should know more aboutit, in the months ahead.
Lauren Welch (05:49):
Is there anything in your life that brings you joy?
Dina van Klaveren (05:54):
I had, dinner yesterday with somebody who.
says that when he counts hisblessings before he goes to bed,
he often falls asleep beforehe is halfway through his list.
'cause his list is so long and I said,I, teased him and said, you're gonna have
to start at the bottom and go backwards.
I do this thing in my ownemotional and spiritual life
(06:15):
where I check how I'm feeling.
if the feelings are unpleasant, I learnedthis from Marshall Rosenberg in a book
called Nonviolent Communication, whichI highly recommend it's an old book.
A lot of people know it.
he.
Teaches us to scan ourselves for ourfeelings and our emotional content.
when the emotional content or feelingsare really unpleasant, they often point
(06:37):
to an unmet need he's got this list.
available online as a PDF download.
I've used it, for years and withmy young adult children now 22
and 19, I use this list to scanand say, what are my unmet needs?
How can I get those met appropriately?
And those needs that can't be metbecause that friend has died or that
(07:02):
is not available to me at this time.
Whatever it is, that's the Christianexperience of suffering and learning
how to suffer, with some compassionand gentleness for myself and those
around me, and, connect with all theresources I need when I'm suffering.
What's bringing, me joy right now isso many things because I do the scan
(07:23):
and I don't have a lot of unmet needs.
I am not pleased with everythingthat's going on in the world.
I'm not getting what I want.
In lots of areas I would make a lot ofdemands on things that are not happening.
However, those things that are within mysphere of control in my household in my
workplace and in my community of friendsand family, I have so many blessings
(07:48):
and so many of my needs are being met.
Jon Shematek (07:51):
Dina, is that something you would.
That exercise that you go throughlooking at, your blessings and so on.
And I we'll definitely have, we'llmake a note in our, our show notes
about the book that you mentioned.
is that sort of exercise or practice,something that you think would benefit
many people, if not all of 'em?
Dina van Klaveren (08:08):
I keep the PDF, I have all these files on my
laptop 'cause I want everythingto be organized and tucked away.
Except I keep a couple pictures of myfamily, my kids always available for me.
And this PDF, I think it's fourpage PDF of all the different
feelings, all the unmet needs.
So I can scan it and check in,especially when I'm feeling really angst.
(08:31):
Or stuck.
I need to get unstuck sometimes.
so I'll go to the PDF and read throughit and I find what it is that I need
to work on, but on the way I realizehow many areas of my life are in good
shape, how many blessings I do have.
Lauren Welch (08:50):
And it sounds like that helps you deepen your spirituality.
Dina van Klaveren (08:54):
Yes.
absolutely.
It teaches me spiritually, itteaches me accountability or agency.
it's a bit like an Ignatian Examen.
Where do I need to inviteGod to help me do some work?
So if I have a need for, health,if there's something in my health
that's not quite lining up, I'm notfeeling good, this happens to me
(09:15):
as a native Southern Californianin the winter, I get the blahs.
I think other peopleget the blahs and worse.
but I just get into this funk whereI'm numbing with TV or on my phone
especially when, I'm not happy withother things happening in the world.
I might start doom scrolling andgetting riled, and then I'm staying up
(09:36):
late because my energy's getting ampedup, but I really need to go to bed.
And so when I have an area like my healthor my sleep patterns that I need to
work on, then this unmet needs list canidentify for me where I need to journal
and talk with God and pray and ask forsome divine intervention, some help.
Jon Shematek (09:58):
Dina, I'm wondering, you're a priest.
Lauren and I are deacons.
obviously we're all Episcopalians,and so this message really
resonates, pretty strongly.
now some of our viewers andlisteners are, probably spiritual.
everyone's got a spirituallife no matter what they think.
it sounds like this really appliesacross the board, whether you
(10:18):
have a belief system or not.
Dina van Klaveren (10:20):
I think one thing that the Christian belief system does
help many of us with is claiming theright amount of agency, understanding
where we start and stop, and where wetrust in something larger than ourselves
that I use language like God for.
When I get really clear about unmetneeds and what Dina needs to do,
(10:44):
and then get really clear about.
What I can't do, what I don't have controlover, what I need to entrust to God.
then I can back away, from sometimeshaving a grip on something and relax
and learn my kids are both in collegeone is 35 miles away and one is, Many
states away learning to trust yourchildren into God's care and the care
(11:08):
of those good people around them.
learning how to trust your children intheir own care to care for themselves.
is a kind of spiritual disciplinethat whether we are practicing a
faith or not, requires some tending.
Jon Shematek (11:23):
Yeah, I'm also thinking about your transition from, parish
ministry and what that must havebeen like, into your new life.
I'm gathering you go from place to place,
Dina van Klaveren (11:34):
It's a very different rhythm I miss the deep relationships
I've had with people over 15 yearsof ministry together marrying people
baptizing their babies being withfamilies through losses and really
having a longer spiritual saga together.
I miss that.
yet there is something spirituallyfulfilling about driving around
(11:55):
not knowing what I'll findand getting into a new worship
space I've never been to before.
It's the joy of travel,rather than the joy of home.
being a rector in a place for 15 years,you've got that comfort, of home.
and it also is home.
Sometimes you're like, it's justhome, travel, can be weary and
(12:15):
oh no, I've gotta get there, I'vegotta plan, I've gotta prepare.
I don't know where I'm going.
and has some hassles involved.
And it also has the unknown.
Part of being a minister in a congregationfor a long time is that experience
of staying grounded and at home.
And what I'm enjoying right now is theitinerancy, the trust in whatever I find.
(12:41):
In fact, I'm learning now thatwhen I show up somewhere, It's
pretty much, 99% the same.
No matter if it's what we used tocall high church or low church, big
church, small church, city, country,those of us that have been doing this
ministry for a while, can walk in,scan the place and understand it.
And mostly the folks that are welcomingyou are trying to explain, we do it this
(13:06):
way, these wafers are for this, a lotof that is actually self-explanatory,
What I think is really interesting,and I thought this when I was a parish
rector, is that we each think thatour home is so special and unique and
different from all the other places.
they're all very much beautiful spacesthat people love and come together to
(13:30):
take care of each other and the worldaround them and to praise God together.
There's so much unity and similarityactually, between all of these homes.
It's a little bit like.
Traveling the world and seeing how peoplelive, there's a lot of similarities, even
if things are quite different visually.
So I guess deacons probablyknow that you're more itinerant.
You travel around and the bishopmight send you to different places.
(13:54):
a priest can get pretty cozyand grounded in a home base.
Jon Shematek (13:59):
Yeah, you're right.
I was, active in parish ministry, aswas Lauren, for much of, 30 years.
We were ordained together.
oh.
When was it Lauren?
19.
89.
89 Look long.
Oh my gosh.
Before so many people were born.
No.
but it is interesting and weget a little taste of that, what
you're talking about vicariously.
I served in seven parishes over30 years, so that was the norm.
(14:22):
Then and still is to some extent.
one of the things I'm enjoying with BishopCarrie is vicariously visiting with her,
her, and her social media every Yes.
Time, she's anywhere else.
You get a sense of that church.
And, it is a source of joy tosee the common life that we have,
in Christ and in the way that weworship and the way that we are.
(14:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
so Dina, I know you have things outside ofthe church that also give you, great joy.
is there one you can highlight forus and talk about a little bit?
Dina van Klaveren (14:55):
It's spring, so I have to talk about what's happening
outside this window in the yard.
I am a master gardener.
I became a master gardener duringCOVID because everything went online.
I could finally do it.
This is a strange story in a way.
I became a master gardenerbecause I wanted a really
beautiful master plan for my yard.
(15:16):
We have three and a half acres, andI wanted this kind of garden and that
kind of garden, and I wanted azaleas andrhododendrons, and I wanted pathways.
I've envisioned it so many different ways.
I thought if I take a master gardenercourse and become a master gardener,
I would at least along the way,develop the master plan for the
(15:37):
yard and then I could execute it.
That was the big plan.
I like to know how to doall the things in the yard.
by the grace of God, I passed,the Master Gardener Program.
soil science is really hard I wasn'tgreat in sciences, but I really
worked at it and tried to understandhow soil can actually make a plant
grow along with light, so forth.
(15:57):
and at the end of the day, I answeredthe questions right passed the exam,
but my real answer is God is amazingand makes things grow because the soil
science very, Intricate and difficult.
I enjoyed that very much, becamea master gardener and along the
way learned about invasive plants.
And when we learned about invasiveplants, it was really depressing.
(16:20):
it was like learning aboutsin oh, everything looks
great, and then you find out.
All the bad stuff.
I would go for a walk in the woods nearour home and I would start to see invasive
plants in the woods and it ruined walks,this is a drag now that I know too much.
that's a little bit like being human whenyou know too much about, human greed or
(16:43):
how ego gets in the way of things, pride.
Like sin.
It was very similar.
when you see those things, it can ruin it.
I know lots of folks who leavechurch because they saw sin somewhere
in the church and they left.
I determined I wasn'tgonna leave the woods.
Just because I saw the invasivesand so I volunteered to pull
(17:05):
invasives and, there's a lot to it.
And I volunteered to do that as partof my volunteering in Master Gardeners.
and the more I learned, I got introducedto somebody my family jokingly
called my Master Gardener boyfriend.
a professor at Universityof Delaware, Doug Tallamy.
(17:25):
He is a professor and and he haswritten this book, Nature's Best
Hope, which changed my life.
it changed my spiritual life aswell, I'll tell you about that.
And then I just got his new book.
This just was released and I got itin my hot little hands, called How Can
I Help Saving Nature With Your Yard.
And these two books along with NativePlants for Wildlife Habitat and
(17:47):
Conservation Landscaping here in Maryland.
You can see I've gotlots of tabs in there.
These are my go-to things rightnow for, my hobby out in the yard.
But, so here's what happened.
Instead of getting a masterplan, I became convicted.
I had a conversion experience.
In which I had to face a reallyugly truth about myself, which was
(18:08):
the reason I wanted a master planand a perfect lawn, was so that my
neighbors would think highly of me.
And that anyone who came on myproperty would say, "this is beautiful.
You are amazing people.
You're an amazing gardener."
you are, good people becauselook at your yard and your
beautiful lawn, all nice and neat.
(18:31):
And I think in a community like where Ilive on an old country road with lots of
houses that were built in the eighties andnineties, the lawn and cutting the lawn.
Is a way to communicate that wecare about our homes, that we care
about our neighborhood, if you will.
that we're decent 'cause we cut our grass.
we would worry when we wouldgo on vacation and not mow the
(18:53):
grass in the summer for 10 days.
we gotta get home and mowbefore the neighbors think
we've moved out or get cranky.
So a lot of the desire to keepyour yard nice has to do with
what other people think of you.
And I had this real awarenessand it reminded me of times
I've gone to a cocktail partyand I haven't been drinking.
(19:16):
I just.
Don't wanna drink anyalcohol at that party.
And people feel very uncomfortablewhen they're drinking and
you're saying, no thank you.
I'll just, I'll have, and you'll evenget something like soda in a glass
that looks like you have a cocktailso that people leave you alone
Jon Shematek (19:30):
maybe with a slice of lime in it.
Dina van Klaveren (19:32):
You're like tricking people.
This is really a cocktail, but you'rejust not drinking having a yard.
That's a little messier or not as tame.
Makes people anxious around you,makes your neighbors anxious.
it makes my husband a little anxious.
This is something we are trying to figureout, but what I realized is the more we
(19:52):
invest in pouring fossil fuels into atractor to spend hours of our time, which
is precious on our grass, so that it looksreally nice for the neighbors, that may
not be the best investment of a fossilfuels, b our time, and c, the land itself.
(20:13):
And so what I've learned fromDoug Tallamy is by keeping my
yard in a monoculture lawn, I'mactually harming the environment.
That monoculture of a non-nativegrass that is my yard is not
feeding the birds, the butterflies,all the insects we depend upon.
and how I'm getting around this withmy husband who would really like
(20:36):
everything to be very neat and tidy is.
He loves to feed the birdsin our backyard feeders.
once we understood that if we don'thave enough keystone trees and enough
native perennial plants in the yard totake care of some of the insects that
need to have their young in our yardin order to then feed the birds, we're
(20:57):
gonna lose population of birds in ourarea, birds that we love to look at.
And so this has led to awhole new wilding of our yard.
which if you come to visit me, you'llsee is a bit of a disaster zone.
It is not the master plan I wanted.
I've had to sacrifice.
this idea of prominence and my ownego among my neighbors, to let it
(21:23):
look a little messy, to leave theleaves all winter long and the stems
of the native perennials so thatthe pollinator babies can do what
they need to do over the winter.
I used to clear that all outand mulch again, and then I
learned it is already mulch.
It's the mulch.
some of the stuff that we get trickedinto thinking we need for our yards, for
(21:44):
our lives, it's really just people tryingto sell us stuff and keep us in a loop.
The piece that really gets me, thatI don't really hear people talking
about, and when I talk about it, peoplethink I'm crazy the more I learn about
how land has been used over time.
The more I come to understandthat I'm addicted to some very
(22:07):
weird notions of aristocracy.
And here we are in the EpiscopalChurch, which has bishops and priests
and deacons and roles and hierarchy.
And we think that servesthe kingdom of God.
That's why we have it.
And we also sometimes worshipthe hierarchy or the aristocracy
piece that's embedded in it ina way that's really unhealthy.
(22:30):
And I think we do this with our yards.
many years ago, the people that movedto this part of the world, Maryland, the
Mid-Atlantic were from parts of Englandthat had great lawns to show that they had
enough servants to keep those lawns cut.
they didn't have a lawn mower.
We have an electric one now.
It's really lovely.
They had people that they took advantageof and oppressed and made cut their
(22:54):
grass the longer the grass wentfrom the house down to where people
approached, the more wealthy you werebecause the more people you could
force into the labor of caring for it.
So when I want my lawn to look acertain way so that the approach
to my house is beautiful and Ilive in a colonial style home.
(23:15):
I am inheriting some of this colonialick around looking like an aristocrat
like little plantation owners.
It's really problematic because landfor most people at the time, was about
food, was about animals being ableto graze, and it was about growing.
The food they needed to eat.
(23:35):
It was not about impressing peopleon the approach to your stately home.
So for those of us that wannahave this stately grass in front
of our stately home or townhouse,we are inheriting this garbage.
around what the land is for and whatour yards are for, I am growing more
(23:56):
comfortable with turning the land.
I wanna have areas where we canplay soccer and ultimate Frisbee.
Don't get me wrong, I love grass for that.
I wanna be out there forEaster egg hunt this Easter.
We're gonna be out in the grass.
We're gonna always have somegrass to play on and picnic on.
And I'm getting more comfortable withwild areas in the yard that are not
wild with invasives, but are reallyintentionally native perennials
(24:21):
and native trees to restore habitatthat's been lost in the Mid-Atlantic.
And that's really what the DougTallamy books are teaching me.
So that's some of the work I'm stilldoing and thinking about I have come
to terms and I can admit that I'maddicted to this aristocratic notion
of, A stately approach to my home, downa driveway with a lawn that's really
(24:45):
green and gorgeous and cut neatly.
I'm trying to learn how to give upcaring what other people think, and do
what is right for God's planet more thando what will make my neighbors happy.
if any of my neighbors on my street happento see this will explain a lot to you.
Jon Shematek (25:05):
Yeah.
No, it explains a lot to me.
And I'm not one of your neighbors,but it's, you're a real evangelist
for Creation Care, and I reallyloved also what you said Dina.
to clarify, it clarified for me whenyou talked about the intentionality
of this is not just letting.
Dina van Klaveren (25:21):
Oh no,
Jon Shematek (25:22):
'cause as you said, what's gonna happen is the invasives
come in and that's all you've got.
isn't it just like our lives
Dina van Klaveren (25:28):
it's exactly.
'cause it is just like my own life.
I might create space for something thatI think is gonna be holy and good, and if
I'm not careful, something else might growin that space and my own spiritual life
in my soul and in my heart and in my mind.
and so it's got a lot of overlap.
and yet.
It's not a metaphor for me.
So while it can be a metaphor forspiritual life, the actual change
(25:53):
to my yard is a spiritual practice.
Allowing the grass.
there's something called "No Mow May"because you wanna let all the perennials
and the areas of your yard foster allthe life of all those baby insects
It's really hard not to mowuntil May or through May.
It's really hard to host a party at yourhouse and not have a really nice lawn.
(26:17):
not doing that is actuallya spiritual practice.
It's a faithfulness to God's callover what other people think.
Which is like the work of life,the work we're all doing in life.
Jon Shematek (26:29):
The other element that comes through to me so strongly in
what you're saying Dina, is humility.
it sounded so Franciscan in a way,that this is God's creation and
the way that we have managed to.
change things for appearance, isreally counter to that whole idea.
Totally.
So much food for thoughtand books for thought.
(26:50):
We'll put all those books in theshow notes so people can find them.
That's awesome.
Thanks for all that.
Dina van Klaveren (26:56):
Thanks
Lauren Welch (26:57):
That was wonderful because it, it not only shows what
you've learned through gardening, buthow your whole life is intertwined.
how your spiritual life your worklife and your living, is all one.
So thank you.
Dina van Klaveren (27:13):
Well said.
Jon Shematek (27:14):
Yeah.
Dina van Klaveren (27:14):
Yeah.
Jon Shematek (27:15):
Dina, I'm just thrilled that you've been with us today and
shared so much this was a reallyinteresting, exciting, voyage for me.
I always have to give Lauren anopportunity to bring up the last
topic or ask the last question.
Lauren, please do
Lauren Welch (27:31):
Dina.
You have shared so much wisdom today.
what would you like to leave our listenersand, people who are watching, what
advice would you like to leave them with?
Dina van Klaveren (27:45):
Several years ago, I was moving my parents from Arizona
to Maryland during the pandemic tobe closer to us as they were aging
I was thinking about how I'm gonnaneed some patience to do all that.
And another, a friend said, it'snot patience, it's gentleness.
So I would offer to people theword gentle, because the word
(28:06):
patience has never worked for me.
If I'm honest.
It makes me feel less patient.
But the word gentle transformshow I breathe, how I interact.
it transforms me and my wellbeing.
So I would like to leaveyour, community of Good News!!
(28:27):
With the word gentle.
In any area where we are strugglingor suffering or doing something
new or hard to really consciouslybe gentle touch, gentle gaze.
gentle words to seek some gentleness,and I think it goes in my experience
(28:51):
thus far in life, the longest way.
Thank you.
Thank you.
for having me today.
Jon Shematek (28:58):
Oh, thanks so much We appreciate it.
Lauren Welch (29:01):
You are welcome.
Jon and I want to thank those whoare watching and listening for
the gift of your time with us.
Until next time, peace and blessings.
Lynn Shematek (29:11):
This episode of Good News has been brought
to you by Listening for Clues.
For more podcasts, check outour YouTube channel or our
website listening for clues.com.
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