April 27, 2025 • 26 mins
The Art and Power of Preaching with David Schlafer
In this episode of Good News, Lynn Shematek and co-hosts Deacons Jon Shematek and Lauren Welch speak with Reverend Dr. David Schlafer—a philosopher, priest, preacher, and teacher. Dr. Schlafer shares his journey from a background in philosophy and Southern Baptist roots to becoming an influential Episcopal priest and educator in homiletics. He delves into his philosophy of preaching, the significance of developing one's unique voice, and the preaching role of deacons and laypersons in the church. The discussion is rich with insights on the importance of careful, respectful use of language in preaching and the transformative power of sermons. Listeners are encouraged to embrace deep listening and nurturing conversations as vital tools for meaningful and impactful preaching.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:25 David Schlafer's Background and Journey
03:25 Philosophy and Preaching
04:51 Teaching and Influences
10:13 The Role of Deacons in Preaching
13:59 Engaging the Congregation
23:09 The Power of Language in Preaching
25:25 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Dr. David J. Schlafer's email: drdavidjschlafer@gmail.com
Books (all 18 of them!) by the Rev. Dr. David J. Schlafer, including "Surviving the Sermon: A Guide to Preaching for Those Who Have to Listen" and "Your Way with God's Word" may be found at https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/141628.David_J_Schlafer and on Amazon books.
Audio version of this episode is available at podcast platforms linked to https://listening-for-clues.captivate.fm/listen
The Good News! podcast series is part of the ListeningforClues portfolio. Catch us at https://listeningforclues.com/
© 2025 Listening for Clues
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lynn Shematek (00:00):
Oh
Hello, friends.
I'm Lynn Shematek with the Good News Team.
Today let's meet the Reverend Dr.
David Schlafer, philosopher,priest, preacher, and teacher.
Join our co-host Deacons Jon Shematekand Lauren Welch as we bring you another
episode of Good News, all about peoplemaking a difference in the world.
Jon Shematek (00:26):
Welcome David Schlafer to the podcast.
Good News.
We're really thrilled thatyou're joining us today.
Lauren Welch (00:34):
We're really happy to have you, David.
We have waited for thisday for a long time.
David Schlafer (00:39):
it is a real joy for me to connect with the two of you.
I have the fondest memories over,the span of, probably 15 years.
Working with, deacons in the DeaconTraining school, helping them develop
their preaching, and the two of you havebeen, such rich and engaging colleagues.
It's mighty fun to be back and havingseen several of these podcasts, it's a
(01:02):
privilege and honor to join them really.
Jon Shematek (01:05):
Oh, thank you David.
That's great.
I've gotta say, Lauren and I were mentorsin the deacon formation program here
when you were teaching to our students.
But I learned more fromyou about how to preach.
you've been a guiding star for mefor so many years, and it's one
of the things I really enjoy whenI get the chance to preach, here
in Baltimore at the Cathedral.
Thank you.
tell us a bit about yourself, David,and how you got to where you are today
David Schlafer (01:28):
In some ways, the simplest, way to say who I am, what
I do professionally, is to say thatin a previous vocational life, I
went into philosophy because of badpreaching and came into the teaching
of preaching convinced that it doesn'thave to be bad or boring philosophy.
To unpack that a little bit, Iam the son of a southern Baptist
preacher who was himself born andraised in New York, so not a typical.
(01:53):
Southern Baptist preacher, he wasan exceedingly earnest preacher.
Heavy on exegesis.
Heavy on exhortation.
Sincere and very boring.
But every once in a while, intotown would ride an evangelist
and we would have services everynight, Sunday through Saturday,
(02:15):
unless it was a two week campaign.
these.
Evangelists would preach fire andbrimstone, which was terrifying and
manipulating, and I really didn't wantto have very much to do with any of that.
There's an additional dimensionhere that may be worth, saying.
my father, with an earned, theological,doctorate degree, was very intelligent.
(02:39):
But he had what, is sometimescalled a hermeneutic of assent.
God said it.
The Bible teaches it.
I believe it.
I want to understand and practice it.
I came into life essentially with what'scalled a hermeneutic of suspicion.
Why should I believe it?
The Bible says this here.
It says that there, whichare you supposed to believe?
(03:01):
there was this gentle clashback and forth between us.
When I went to college, my father insistedthat I go to a, strong Christian college.
Which was Wheaton outside of Chicago.
I went there kicking and screamingbecause I really wanted to go to
Northwestern and major in, pre-law.
(03:22):
Wheaton was where I ended up.
within the second, semesterof being there, I was in an
introduction to philosophy course.
The professor was absolutelymesmerizing and, I found myself.
trying to work my way toward faith.
primarily by means of reason becauseimages and feelings had been so polluted
(03:47):
in my background that I really didn'twant to have anything to do with them.
But then, because of a change of job, westarted attending an Episcopal church.
By this point I had read myway into the necessity of a
sacramental view of the universe.
here was worship, which embodied that.
(04:08):
and in which it was possible tobe, open to sense, open to emotion
because it was not a manipulationaround the process of reason.
Very early on, I, had the sense of,wanting to be able to be behind the
altar as a way of embodying for myselfthe theology to which I had come
(04:31):
My undergraduate teaching job dissolvedbecause, I had become an Episcopalian and,
this college, was suspicious of those.
So I ended up attending, NashotahHouse Episcopal Seminary and, very
quickly, found myself, engagedthere, teaching in moral theology.
I was invited to be part of abeginning preaching class, and,
(04:56):
found that I deeply loved it.
very instrumental for me.
is a, homiletics professor by thename of Eugene Lowry, whose book
"Doing Time in the Pulpit" madea significant, impact upon me.
suggesting that not all sermons arestories, and yet, it is possible to
shape a sermon in such a way thatit has a narrative quality to it.
(05:19):
Taking.
Listeners from a beginning pointon a journey, that leads, to
some kind of fresh, recognition.
that's the way I have, triedto do my own preaching.
It's the way I try to nurture peoplewho are studying preaching, with me.
Which has been both in seminary classes,in four different seminaries, in,
(05:42):
preaching conferences here and in Englandand Canada, in a fair degree of writing.
And now what I'm spending most of myprofessional time doing is coaching
individual preachers some on a weeklybasis, some on an occasional basis, and
some, back and forth with colleagues,where we simply talk shop with each other.
Jon Shematek (06:05):
That's, quite, a journey and you've published a number of,
books on preaching that, I assumepeople have actually read and are using
some of the wisdom in those books.
David Schlafer (06:16):
the, topic of the first one, pretty much says something about
the background I just briefly described,"Surviving the Sermon, a Guide to
Preaching for Those Who Have to Listen."
Preaching is primarily a listeningart You have to shape it in a way,
that's different from, reading anessay or looking at a still picture.
You have to shape the sermon in away that takes people on the journey,
(06:41):
that the interplay between the text.
The congregation, and the culture,and the time seemed to be leading.
Lauren Welch (06:48):
And David, one of the books too, and I know that you always
encouraged us to find our own voice.
we don't have to preach likeDavid or Jon or whoever we have
seen or heard in the past, but tofind our own voice, can you say.
Something about that.
David Schlafer (07:04):
Yeah, I think the book that, followed "Surviving
the Sermon, a Guide to Preachingfor Those Who Have to Listen"
is "Your Way with God's word, DiscoveringYour Distinctive Preaching Voice", which,
leads people through exercises, helpingthem recognize the voice within them, and
the voice that is in process of coming tobe clearer, fuller, richer, deeper, wider.
(07:27):
so that has been a valuable insightto preachers who, want to be faithful
to the gospel, but realize that it'snot possible to do that unless you
can do it in your particular way.
Philip Brooks, the famous, Episcopalpreacher at Trinity, Church,
Wall Street, , put it this way.
(07:48):
preaching, he says, is truth throughpersonality, not the truth of personality
or truth about personality, but thetruth of the gospel embodied in and
through the personality of the preacher.
Brooks went on to say, ifit were possible to preach.
All the truths of the incarnation ina disembodied way that would not be
(08:13):
preaching the truth of the incarnation.
So it's a matter of coming moreaware of what distinctive gifts,
limitations, wounds that I may have,all of which God can make, good use of.
to do that in the service of the gospel,you can make a case for saying that
the whole of scripture, the texts onwhich we base our sermons is a series.
(08:38):
Conversations back and forthbetween, the author and the people.
In some ways, the scriptureis an anthology of sermons.
What we do as preachers is pickup on that conversation and
carry it into, the present day.
Jon Shematek (08:54):
David, you mentioned, elements that might be involved.
You mentioned wounds in particular.
I'm wondering, some people say thatone of the most powerful ways to preach
is through your own vulnerability.
Do you think that's or no?
David Schlafer (09:10):
that is if one understands it correctly, to simply use the pulpit.
As an excuse for venting or weepingor raging or, engaging in self
therapy, will not work at all.
Okay?
And yet, to be able to access thedimensions of one's wounds, sometimes
(09:30):
without even mentioning yourself atall, but using images, metaphors,
anecdotes, can be, profoundly effective.
a Christian educator of a previous,generation, put it, This way,
the I of the preacher needsto become the I of the sermon.
The capital I of the preacher needsto become the IEYE of the sermon.
(09:56):
what you are attempting to do isnot draw attention to yourself.
Rather present your experiencein a way that other people can,
identify with, even though it willnot be exactly the same as yours,
it will be a point of human contact.
Lauren Welch (10:12):
And David, you also were very instrumental in, deacon formation
programs in Maryland, and Virginia to helpdeacons learn, that they are called to
preaching too, because the church did notalways see deacons as called to preaching,
but to serving and being a servant.
David Schlafer (10:30):
Sure I could speak to that with a fair degree of passion.
often when working with deacons, in theprocess of training to be preachers,
I say that even though I'm a priest,I have a certain degree of Deacon
Envy because, based on a study I hadaccess to some time ago, it seems to
me that not only are deacons allowed topreach, but that, the role of deacon.
(10:56):
Is fundamental to understandingwhat preaching is about.
Often if, deacons are allowed to preach atall, it is simply, whipping up enthusiasm
for the current, outreach project.
let's bring on the deacon tosay, you must, you ought, you
should get involved in this.
But, the fundamentalunderstanding of, the diaconate.
(11:19):
This, book that I was given accessto goes something like this.
The initial reading, of Deacon wasfound not in Christian, writing, but
in Greek mythology where Hermes wasZeus's, deacon Hermes, the winged,
creature, Zeus, the Chief God.
Hermes was, not just the messengerboy, so to speak, but, deacon
(11:42):
meant to be attendant, someonewho is right, beside, the master,
attendant, spokesperson, embodiment.
And so when Hermes speaks,that's really Zeus speaking.
Hermes is the name from which thediscipline of hermeneutics is, derived.
what a preaching deacon is primarily,is a hermaneut, someone who bridges the
(12:07):
gap between, culture, and, Christiancommunity helps, one, understand the other
sheds light from one upon, the other.
in the book of Acts, there is the,appointing of the deacons, all of
whom are Greeks, in a church tryingto incorporate and integrate,
Greek widows with Jewish folks.
(12:30):
The initial concern is thewidows are not getting fed.
the implication in terms of, the studyI did is that what the deacon at really
did was, sit at table with, the Greeks,when, the apostles were preaching and,
the eyes of the Greeks glazed over.
(12:52):
What the deacons would do would be to say,Hey, explain that in a d different way.
facilitating, a backand forth interaction.
my sense, is that, the role of the deaconis translating, interpreting, the biblical
experience, and scripture text into aworld that, doesn't understand it often,
(13:12):
doesn't want it, but can be illuminedby it what seems in culture alien, can
to those of us who are in the church.
shine fresh light, and add deepermeaning to, what we say we believe.
Jon Shematek (13:27):
I don't think I've ever heard such a, distilled.
And totally accurate description ofhow I understand the diaconate as well.
I just wouldn't have guessedthat, preaching was the model
for that to be, exemplified.
That's great.
there are a couple of thingsthat have popped into my.
Head.
David, one of the things I'm wonderingabout for you personally, before we
(13:48):
ask things that are maybe a littlemore theoretical is, I definitely
have the sense looking back over yourlife, that you've been so engaged
with preaching pretty much all along.
can you talk a little bit about,What you love about preaching?
What is it that you love aboutteaching preaching, which I
guess are two different things?
David Schlafer (14:08):
I think they're closely connected.
What I love about preaching is, ifin fact it's done well, one moves
from as, politician, Fred Craddockput it the nod of recognition.
quite so I understand that.
Through the shock of recognition,oh my God, I never imagined
it could be that way.
(14:29):
the whole notion of faith as a journeyin which one is constantly, encountering,
richer answers, which generate morequestions, which generate, more
answers, the quest for truth itself,is every bit as important as, being
able to nab little bits of it, as yougo along the preaching that has meant
(14:49):
the most to me has been what I haveheard people, preachers open up biblical
texts in a way that I had no idea.
It could mean that much, havethose kinds of rich implications.
I think the reason I enjoy teachingpreaching is that there is an initial,
understandable, appropriate shyness.
(15:12):
Who am I to speak for God?
I don't have the ability.
you connect with all sorts of,call narratives in scripture.
Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Gideon,Mary, how could this possibly be?
find someone else, certainly not me,but God, comes and says, Jeremiah,
(15:33):
I have put my hand on your lips.
I will tell you what to say,you will be my mouthpiece.
helping people in their own distinctiveways to come into realizing how they can
do that and how they can continue to grow.
how they can learn from fellowcreatures because the act of
(15:55):
preaching itself seems to be a soloperformance and a spectator sport.
But the fact of the matter is, preachersneed each other as colleagues can learn
from, support from grow with, each other.
Forming communities of preachers whogather as a community of practice.
is a great joy, to me in some ways.
(16:17):
as one other, homiletics professor,whom I highly regard said I'm really
like the bowl, which holds, all thesedifferent, preachers in the same space.
They interact with each other, teachone another, and in the process I
learned a great deal more about how Ican preach effectively in my own way.
(16:38):
I discover new techniques, which canbe, evocative and illuminating, in
terms of making suggestions to othercreatures, which is not simply a matter
or ever, for that matter, a matter ofsaying this was wrong, this was right.
But this phrase, where exactly areyou hoping to take people with it?
(16:59):
how does it relate to the idea earlierin the sermon, which doesn't quite
seem to square with that, both mightbe true in a dialectical sort of way.
The evolving of a preaching voice, likethe evolving of a sermon, is itself
the spiritual journey, whether takenby the individual preacher, whether
(17:20):
taken by a group of, preachers in aclass or in, An ongoing commitment.
it's just an exciting spiritual journey.
Lauren Welch (17:29):
It certainly is, especially when you are teaching it.
I can remember your energy.
while you were teaching, which energizedall of us and we wanted to learn more.
we wanted to learn to preach.
what has surprised you the most?
in your preaching journeyand your teaching journey,
David Schlafer (17:49):
I think on one hand what has surprised me is, how difficult
it can be to bridge gaps betweenChristian community and local culture.
It takes a tremendous amount ofthought, prayer, reflection to
build those kinds of bridges.
(18:11):
I'm always surprised when anew bridge, reveals itself.
it's a real struggle when you can'tseem to make connections so I suppose
the surprise Has to do with beingpersistent, but patient in the process
of looking for connections that areauthentic, genuine not just simplistic,
(18:31):
or superficial connections that, leadto further growth and development.
Jon Shematek (18:37):
David, I'm thinking of good sermons and not so good sermons
that I've heard over my, lifetime.
I'm pretty sure that the charismor gift of preaching is not
necessarily bestowed a hundredpercent on people that are ordained.
David Schlafer (18:51):
Oh, absolutely.
some of the most effective preachers.
Are ones that you have to listen tobecause, people realize you're not
being paid to say so, the whole notionof evoking the preaching voices, of
every member of the congregation,is, is particularly important.
What a good, ordained creature will do is.
(19:14):
Stir up the gifts of communication andconnection, in members of the church
community so that they can sustain andgrow, with each other, and spread the
word, evangelism becomes not tellingyou what you need to know and do,
but engaging people in conversationin which, insight is more fully.
(19:36):
developed.,
since Acts chapter two,the, descent of Pentecost.
It's often presented as though, whenthe tongues of fire come upon, the
disciples, they start spouting inlanguage that even they don't understand,
that they've never heard before.
at Pentecost.
People from every nation would'vecome, You can't mix in, the marketplace
(20:01):
without picking up some words andphrases from, folks you don't understand.
my sense of, Pentecost is that,Peter takes charge and he says,
Who knows something of Parthianwho knows something of Medes?
Go out there and engage inconversation the best you can.
what happens is, back and forth betweenthe languages, they come to understand
(20:23):
the source of all their language, which isthe God whose, word, creates and convenes.
Community.
to your question.
Yes, absolutely.
non ordained preachers both in the pulpit,but also by their life and witness, are
really the most effective preachers.
that the church has, I think.
Jon Shematek (20:44):
That's really exciting to hear and I love it.
I know that you've taught in alot of different sorts of venues
and you will do, consulting ormeeting with, preachers regularly.
do you do that sort of practicewith, non ordained people
as well as ordained people?
It certainly seems like that would bea huge need and opportunity these days.
David Schlafer (21:04):
Yes, and the way that often begins best is to
gather, community of listeners.
Who can become supportive of their parish,preacher, pastor, priest, minister, to
give them some skills for doing theirown deep listening so that they can
give, effective, constructive feedback.
(21:27):
To the, preacher, but also to extend thespirited conversation of which that sermon
is really simply, the starting point.
and so done a fair number ofworks with, number of workshops
with small groups of, lay people.
actually some of those, fairly, largeadult education kinds of, of settings.
(21:51):
it's been a joy to help them realizethat they can not simply walk out
and say, that was a good sermon, butrather, here's what I heard you say.
Here's what it leads me, to think,here's the way in which, your sermon
helped me, come to realize that.
Here's where we could take this, theideas, the insights, the feelings,
(22:12):
the focus, of the images of thissermon and translate them more
fully into life and the world.
Jon Shematek (22:18):
And what a joy that would be as a preacher to have
that sort of conversation after.
No question.
So David, sometimes we wait and seewhat the Holy Spirit has in mind, and
sometimes she tells us very clearlyand sometimes I say Lauren, I know
you always have one final question.
Lauren Welch (22:36):
I always do.
And David, you have shared yourpassion, your love, of preaching
and teaching preaching, to so many,and you have empowered so many
people to share the good news.
What would you like to leave?
Our listeners with today as a bitof wisdom to take, to heart as they
(23:04):
go out into the world and preach theword, whether they're lay or ordained.
David Schlafer (23:09):
I think that, verse of scripture, which says, the word
of God is active and powerful,sharper than a two-edged sword.
able to separate between, bonesand marrow, is not, an image for
cutting up, but rather gettingto the heart of the matter.
I think it's terribly important ina world when words are by and large
(23:34):
in culture, one of two kinds tryingto sell you something, or trying to
use words to bash people who are onthe other side of a political, fence.
to be able to nurture a senseof deep listening, careful
speaking, respectful conversation.
(23:56):
illuminating understanding so that, onenever has the last word, but the last
word spoken is always the first wordfor the next, round of conversation.
you think about it.
the way in which we experiencethe most growth, the most
intimacy, the most success iswhen we interact with each other.
(24:19):
In, a verbal way.
And of course, it is possible toengage in nonverbal communication,
which often can speak very powerfully.
and yet, we're in a time, itseems to me when language is
under a great deal of assault.
To be able to try to bring people back toits beauty, the beauty of language, the
(24:44):
light that language sheds the connectionsthat are made at people integrate,
their understandings with each other.
it's a very powerful, thing to seehow destructive language can be.
And alternatively howcreative language can be.
I think what we are called todo as responsible citizens, is,
(25:09):
to combat the destructive forceof language, with a gracious.
nurturing, empowering,creative use of language.
Jon Shematek (25:19):
What a, powerful and timely message for today and for days to come.
David, this has been a joy.
Thank you so much for being here todayand, giving us your words of wisdom
and rekindling in me personally,a wonderful, relationship and an
excitement, for preaching the word of God.
I just wanna personally thank you verymuch for your time and your words today.
David Schlafer (25:42):
Just a joy to be with both of you again.
thanks so much.
Lauren Welch (25:48):
David, it has been a delight to have you with us today.
So thank you again And Iwant to thank all who are.
Watching and listening forthe gift of your time with us.
Until next time, peace and blessings.
Lynn Shematek (26:03):
This episode of Good News has been brought
to you by Listening for Clues.
For more podcasts, check outour YouTube channel or our
website listening for clues.com.
Oh
Hello, friends.
I'm Lynn Shematek with the Good News Team.
Today let's meet the Reverend Dr.
David Schlafer, philosopher,priest, preacher, and teacher.
Join our co-host Deacons Jon Shematekand Lauren Welch as we bring you another
episode of Good News, all about peoplemaking a difference in the world.
Jon Shematek (00:26):
Welcome David Schlafer to the podcast.
Good News.
We're really thrilled thatyou're joining us today.
Lauren Welch (00:34):
We're really happy to have you, David.
We have waited for thisday for a long time.
David Schlafer (00:39):
it is a real joy for me to connect with the two of you.
I have the fondest memories over,the span of, probably 15 years.
Working with, deacons in the DeaconTraining school, helping them develop
their preaching, and the two of you havebeen, such rich and engaging colleagues.
It's mighty fun to be back and havingseen several of these podcasts, it's a
(01:02):
privilege and honor to join them really.
Jon Shematek (01:05):
Oh, thank you David.
That's great.
I've gotta say, Lauren and I were mentorsin the deacon formation program here
when you were teaching to our students.
But I learned more fromyou about how to preach.
you've been a guiding star for mefor so many years, and it's one
of the things I really enjoy whenI get the chance to preach, here
in Baltimore at the Cathedral.
Thank you.
tell us a bit about yourself, David,and how you got to where you are today
David Schlafer (01:28):
In some ways, the simplest, way to say who I am, what
I do professionally, is to say thatin a previous vocational life, I
went into philosophy because of badpreaching and came into the teaching
of preaching convinced that it doesn'thave to be bad or boring philosophy.
To unpack that a little bit, Iam the son of a southern Baptist
preacher who was himself born andraised in New York, so not a typical.
(01:53):
Southern Baptist preacher, he wasan exceedingly earnest preacher.
Heavy on exegesis.
Heavy on exhortation.
Sincere and very boring.
But every once in a while, intotown would ride an evangelist
and we would have services everynight, Sunday through Saturday,
(02:15):
unless it was a two week campaign.
these.
Evangelists would preach fire andbrimstone, which was terrifying and
manipulating, and I really didn't wantto have very much to do with any of that.
There's an additional dimensionhere that may be worth, saying.
my father, with an earned, theological,doctorate degree, was very intelligent.
(02:39):
But he had what, is sometimescalled a hermeneutic of assent.
God said it.
The Bible teaches it.
I believe it.
I want to understand and practice it.
I came into life essentially with what'scalled a hermeneutic of suspicion.
Why should I believe it?
The Bible says this here.
It says that there, whichare you supposed to believe?
(03:01):
there was this gentle clashback and forth between us.
When I went to college, my father insistedthat I go to a, strong Christian college.
Which was Wheaton outside of Chicago.
I went there kicking and screamingbecause I really wanted to go to
Northwestern and major in, pre-law.
(03:22):
Wheaton was where I ended up.
within the second, semesterof being there, I was in an
introduction to philosophy course.
The professor was absolutelymesmerizing and, I found myself.
trying to work my way toward faith.
primarily by means of reason becauseimages and feelings had been so polluted
(03:47):
in my background that I really didn'twant to have anything to do with them.
But then, because of a change of job, westarted attending an Episcopal church.
By this point I had read myway into the necessity of a
sacramental view of the universe.
here was worship, which embodied that.
(04:08):
and in which it was possible tobe, open to sense, open to emotion
because it was not a manipulationaround the process of reason.
Very early on, I, had the sense of,wanting to be able to be behind the
altar as a way of embodying for myselfthe theology to which I had come
(04:31):
My undergraduate teaching job dissolvedbecause, I had become an Episcopalian and,
this college, was suspicious of those.
So I ended up attending, NashotahHouse Episcopal Seminary and, very
quickly, found myself, engagedthere, teaching in moral theology.
I was invited to be part of abeginning preaching class, and,
(04:56):
found that I deeply loved it.
very instrumental for me.
is a, homiletics professor by thename of Eugene Lowry, whose book
"Doing Time in the Pulpit" madea significant, impact upon me.
suggesting that not all sermons arestories, and yet, it is possible to
shape a sermon in such a way thatit has a narrative quality to it.
(05:19):
Taking.
Listeners from a beginning pointon a journey, that leads, to
some kind of fresh, recognition.
that's the way I have, triedto do my own preaching.
It's the way I try to nurture peoplewho are studying preaching, with me.
Which has been both in seminary classes,in four different seminaries, in,
(05:42):
preaching conferences here and in Englandand Canada, in a fair degree of writing.
And now what I'm spending most of myprofessional time doing is coaching
individual preachers some on a weeklybasis, some on an occasional basis, and
some, back and forth with colleagues,where we simply talk shop with each other.
Jon Shematek (06:05):
That's, quite, a journey and you've published a number of,
books on preaching that, I assumepeople have actually read and are using
some of the wisdom in those books.
David Schlafer (06:16):
the, topic of the first one, pretty much says something about
the background I just briefly described,"Surviving the Sermon, a Guide to
Preaching for Those Who Have to Listen."
Preaching is primarily a listeningart You have to shape it in a way,
that's different from, reading anessay or looking at a still picture.
You have to shape the sermon in away that takes people on the journey,
(06:41):
that the interplay between the text.
The congregation, and the culture,and the time seemed to be leading.
Lauren Welch (06:48):
And David, one of the books too, and I know that you always
encouraged us to find our own voice.
we don't have to preach likeDavid or Jon or whoever we have
seen or heard in the past, but tofind our own voice, can you say.
Something about that.
David Schlafer (07:04):
Yeah, I think the book that, followed "Surviving
the Sermon, a Guide to Preachingfor Those Who Have to Listen"
is "Your Way with God's word, DiscoveringYour Distinctive Preaching Voice", which,
leads people through exercises, helpingthem recognize the voice within them, and
the voice that is in process of coming tobe clearer, fuller, richer, deeper, wider.
(07:27):
so that has been a valuable insightto preachers who, want to be faithful
to the gospel, but realize that it'snot possible to do that unless you
can do it in your particular way.
Philip Brooks, the famous, Episcopalpreacher at Trinity, Church,
Wall Street, , put it this way.
(07:48):
preaching, he says, is truth throughpersonality, not the truth of personality
or truth about personality, but thetruth of the gospel embodied in and
through the personality of the preacher.
Brooks went on to say, ifit were possible to preach.
All the truths of the incarnation ina disembodied way that would not be
(08:13):
preaching the truth of the incarnation.
So it's a matter of coming moreaware of what distinctive gifts,
limitations, wounds that I may have,all of which God can make, good use of.
to do that in the service of the gospel,you can make a case for saying that
the whole of scripture, the texts onwhich we base our sermons is a series.
(08:38):
Conversations back and forthbetween, the author and the people.
In some ways, the scriptureis an anthology of sermons.
What we do as preachers is pickup on that conversation and
carry it into, the present day.
Jon Shematek (08:54):
David, you mentioned, elements that might be involved.
You mentioned wounds in particular.
I'm wondering, some people say thatone of the most powerful ways to preach
is through your own vulnerability.
Do you think that's or no?
David Schlafer (09:10):
that is if one understands it correctly, to simply use the pulpit.
As an excuse for venting or weepingor raging or, engaging in self
therapy, will not work at all.
Okay?
And yet, to be able to access thedimensions of one's wounds, sometimes
(09:30):
without even mentioning yourself atall, but using images, metaphors,
anecdotes, can be, profoundly effective.
a Christian educator of a previous,generation, put it, This way,
the I of the preacher needsto become the I of the sermon.
The capital I of the preacher needsto become the IEYE of the sermon.
(09:56):
what you are attempting to do isnot draw attention to yourself.
Rather present your experiencein a way that other people can,
identify with, even though it willnot be exactly the same as yours,
it will be a point of human contact.
Lauren Welch (10:12):
And David, you also were very instrumental in, deacon formation
programs in Maryland, and Virginia to helpdeacons learn, that they are called to
preaching too, because the church did notalways see deacons as called to preaching,
but to serving and being a servant.
David Schlafer (10:30):
Sure I could speak to that with a fair degree of passion.
often when working with deacons, in theprocess of training to be preachers,
I say that even though I'm a priest,I have a certain degree of Deacon
Envy because, based on a study I hadaccess to some time ago, it seems to
me that not only are deacons allowed topreach, but that, the role of deacon.
(10:56):
Is fundamental to understandingwhat preaching is about.
Often if, deacons are allowed to preach atall, it is simply, whipping up enthusiasm
for the current, outreach project.
let's bring on the deacon tosay, you must, you ought, you
should get involved in this.
But, the fundamentalunderstanding of, the diaconate.
(11:19):
This, book that I was given accessto goes something like this.
The initial reading, of Deacon wasfound not in Christian, writing, but
in Greek mythology where Hermes wasZeus's, deacon Hermes, the winged,
creature, Zeus, the Chief God.
Hermes was, not just the messengerboy, so to speak, but, deacon
(11:42):
meant to be attendant, someonewho is right, beside, the master,
attendant, spokesperson, embodiment.
And so when Hermes speaks,that's really Zeus speaking.
Hermes is the name from which thediscipline of hermeneutics is, derived.
what a preaching deacon is primarily,is a hermaneut, someone who bridges the
(12:07):
gap between, culture, and, Christiancommunity helps, one, understand the other
sheds light from one upon, the other.
in the book of Acts, there is the,appointing of the deacons, all of
whom are Greeks, in a church tryingto incorporate and integrate,
Greek widows with Jewish folks.
(12:30):
The initial concern is thewidows are not getting fed.
the implication in terms of, the studyI did is that what the deacon at really
did was, sit at table with, the Greeks,when, the apostles were preaching and,
the eyes of the Greeks glazed over.
(12:52):
What the deacons would do would be to say,Hey, explain that in a d different way.
facilitating, a backand forth interaction.
my sense, is that, the role of the deaconis translating, interpreting, the biblical
experience, and scripture text into aworld that, doesn't understand it often,
(13:12):
doesn't want it, but can be illuminedby it what seems in culture alien, can
to those of us who are in the church.
shine fresh light, and add deepermeaning to, what we say we believe.
Jon Shematek (13:27):
I don't think I've ever heard such a, distilled.
And totally accurate description ofhow I understand the diaconate as well.
I just wouldn't have guessedthat, preaching was the model
for that to be, exemplified.
That's great.
there are a couple of thingsthat have popped into my.
Head.
David, one of the things I'm wonderingabout for you personally, before we
(13:48):
ask things that are maybe a littlemore theoretical is, I definitely
have the sense looking back over yourlife, that you've been so engaged
with preaching pretty much all along.
can you talk a little bit about,What you love about preaching?
What is it that you love aboutteaching preaching, which I
guess are two different things?
David Schlafer (14:08):
I think they're closely connected.
What I love about preaching is, ifin fact it's done well, one moves
from as, politician, Fred Craddockput it the nod of recognition.
quite so I understand that.
Through the shock of recognition,oh my God, I never imagined
it could be that way.
(14:29):
the whole notion of faith as a journeyin which one is constantly, encountering,
richer answers, which generate morequestions, which generate, more
answers, the quest for truth itself,is every bit as important as, being
able to nab little bits of it, as yougo along the preaching that has meant
(14:49):
the most to me has been what I haveheard people, preachers open up biblical
texts in a way that I had no idea.
It could mean that much, havethose kinds of rich implications.
I think the reason I enjoy teachingpreaching is that there is an initial,
understandable, appropriate shyness.
(15:12):
Who am I to speak for God?
I don't have the ability.
you connect with all sorts of,call narratives in scripture.
Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Gideon,Mary, how could this possibly be?
find someone else, certainly not me,but God, comes and says, Jeremiah,
(15:33):
I have put my hand on your lips.
I will tell you what to say,you will be my mouthpiece.
helping people in their own distinctiveways to come into realizing how they can
do that and how they can continue to grow.
how they can learn from fellowcreatures because the act of
(15:55):
preaching itself seems to be a soloperformance and a spectator sport.
But the fact of the matter is, preachersneed each other as colleagues can learn
from, support from grow with, each other.
Forming communities of preachers whogather as a community of practice.
is a great joy, to me in some ways.
(16:17):
as one other, homiletics professor,whom I highly regard said I'm really
like the bowl, which holds, all thesedifferent, preachers in the same space.
They interact with each other, teachone another, and in the process I
learned a great deal more about how Ican preach effectively in my own way.
(16:38):
I discover new techniques, which canbe, evocative and illuminating, in
terms of making suggestions to othercreatures, which is not simply a matter
or ever, for that matter, a matter ofsaying this was wrong, this was right.
But this phrase, where exactly areyou hoping to take people with it?
(16:59):
how does it relate to the idea earlierin the sermon, which doesn't quite
seem to square with that, both mightbe true in a dialectical sort of way.
The evolving of a preaching voice, likethe evolving of a sermon, is itself
the spiritual journey, whether takenby the individual preacher, whether
(17:20):
taken by a group of, preachers in aclass or in, An ongoing commitment.
it's just an exciting spiritual journey.
Lauren Welch (17:29):
It certainly is, especially when you are teaching it.
I can remember your energy.
while you were teaching, which energizedall of us and we wanted to learn more.
we wanted to learn to preach.
what has surprised you the most?
in your preaching journeyand your teaching journey,
David Schlafer (17:49):
I think on one hand what has surprised me is, how difficult
it can be to bridge gaps betweenChristian community and local culture.
It takes a tremendous amount ofthought, prayer, reflection to
build those kinds of bridges.
(18:11):
I'm always surprised when anew bridge, reveals itself.
it's a real struggle when you can'tseem to make connections so I suppose
the surprise Has to do with beingpersistent, but patient in the process
of looking for connections that areauthentic, genuine not just simplistic,
(18:31):
or superficial connections that, leadto further growth and development.
Jon Shematek (18:37):
David, I'm thinking of good sermons and not so good sermons
that I've heard over my, lifetime.
I'm pretty sure that the charismor gift of preaching is not
necessarily bestowed a hundredpercent on people that are ordained.
David Schlafer (18:51):
Oh, absolutely.
some of the most effective preachers.
Are ones that you have to listen tobecause, people realize you're not
being paid to say so, the whole notionof evoking the preaching voices, of
every member of the congregation,is, is particularly important.
What a good, ordained creature will do is.
(19:14):
Stir up the gifts of communication andconnection, in members of the church
community so that they can sustain andgrow, with each other, and spread the
word, evangelism becomes not tellingyou what you need to know and do,
but engaging people in conversationin which, insight is more fully.
(19:36):
developed.,
since Acts chapter two,the, descent of Pentecost.
It's often presented as though, whenthe tongues of fire come upon, the
disciples, they start spouting inlanguage that even they don't understand,
that they've never heard before.
at Pentecost.
People from every nation would'vecome, You can't mix in, the marketplace
(20:01):
without picking up some words andphrases from, folks you don't understand.
my sense of, Pentecost is that,Peter takes charge and he says,
Who knows something of Parthianwho knows something of Medes?
Go out there and engage inconversation the best you can.
what happens is, back and forth betweenthe languages, they come to understand
(20:23):
the source of all their language, which isthe God whose, word, creates and convenes.
Community.
to your question.
Yes, absolutely.
non ordained preachers both in the pulpit,but also by their life and witness, are
really the most effective preachers.
that the church has, I think.
Jon Shematek (20:44):
That's really exciting to hear and I love it.
I know that you've taught in alot of different sorts of venues
and you will do, consulting ormeeting with, preachers regularly.
do you do that sort of practicewith, non ordained people
as well as ordained people?
It certainly seems like that would bea huge need and opportunity these days.
David Schlafer (21:04):
Yes, and the way that often begins best is to
gather, community of listeners.
Who can become supportive of their parish,preacher, pastor, priest, minister, to
give them some skills for doing theirown deep listening so that they can
give, effective, constructive feedback.
(21:27):
To the, preacher, but also to extend thespirited conversation of which that sermon
is really simply, the starting point.
and so done a fair number ofworks with, number of workshops
with small groups of, lay people.
actually some of those, fairly, largeadult education kinds of, of settings.
(21:51):
it's been a joy to help them realizethat they can not simply walk out
and say, that was a good sermon, butrather, here's what I heard you say.
Here's what it leads me, to think,here's the way in which, your sermon
helped me, come to realize that.
Here's where we could take this, theideas, the insights, the feelings,
(22:12):
the focus, of the images of thissermon and translate them more
fully into life and the world.
Jon Shematek (22:18):
And what a joy that would be as a preacher to have
that sort of conversation after.
No question.
So David, sometimes we wait and seewhat the Holy Spirit has in mind, and
sometimes she tells us very clearlyand sometimes I say Lauren, I know
you always have one final question.
Lauren Welch (22:36):
I always do.
And David, you have shared yourpassion, your love, of preaching
and teaching preaching, to so many,and you have empowered so many
people to share the good news.
What would you like to leave?
Our listeners with today as a bitof wisdom to take, to heart as they
(23:04):
go out into the world and preach theword, whether they're lay or ordained.
David Schlafer (23:09):
I think that, verse of scripture, which says, the word
of God is active and powerful,sharper than a two-edged sword.
able to separate between, bonesand marrow, is not, an image for
cutting up, but rather gettingto the heart of the matter.
I think it's terribly important ina world when words are by and large
(23:34):
in culture, one of two kinds tryingto sell you something, or trying to
use words to bash people who are onthe other side of a political, fence.
to be able to nurture a senseof deep listening, careful
speaking, respectful conversation.
(23:56):
illuminating understanding so that, onenever has the last word, but the last
word spoken is always the first wordfor the next, round of conversation.
you think about it.
the way in which we experiencethe most growth, the most
intimacy, the most success iswhen we interact with each other.
(24:19):
In, a verbal way.
And of course, it is possible toengage in nonverbal communication,
which often can speak very powerfully.
and yet, we're in a time, itseems to me when language is
under a great deal of assault.
To be able to try to bring people back toits beauty, the beauty of language, the
(24:44):
light that language sheds the connectionsthat are made at people integrate,
their understandings with each other.
it's a very powerful, thing to seehow destructive language can be.
And alternatively howcreative language can be.
I think what we are called todo as responsible citizens, is,
(25:09):
to combat the destructive forceof language, with a gracious.
nurturing, empowering,creative use of language.
Jon Shematek (25:19):
What a, powerful and timely message for today and for days to come.
David, this has been a joy.
Thank you so much for being here todayand, giving us your words of wisdom
and rekindling in me personally,a wonderful, relationship and an
excitement, for preaching the word of God.
I just wanna personally thank you verymuch for your time and your words today.
David Schlafer (25:42):
Just a joy to be with both of you again.
thanks so much.
Lauren Welch (25:48):
David, it has been a delight to have you with us today.
So thank you again And Iwant to thank all who are.
Watching and listening forthe gift of your time with us.
Until next time, peace and blessings.
Lynn Shematek (26:03):
This episode of Good News has been brought
to you by Listening for Clues.
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