December 11, 2024 • 56 mins
Mia Lobel is a veteran audio producer, manager, and educator who has spent her career championing creativity, diversity and character-driven storytelling.
She has worked with the best writers, journalists and intellectuals to help them achieve their vision in sound.
She was the Managing Producer & Lead Producer for Malcolm Gladwell’s "Revisionist History." As VP of content and production for his Pushkin Industries company she oversaw the creation of 28 podcasts.
She says that she "believes that happy people do great work" and she "leads by creating a culture of kindness."
She also recommends that you should always "take a podcast out for a walk"
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(00:00):
Welcome to Listening with China Blue.
(00:03):
This is a podcast that focuses on how
listening not only informs us about what is occurring in the world around us,
but also helps us connect with others,
build stronger businesses,
strengthens our mental health,
and become more creative and compassionate individuals.
As more and more people practice attentive listening in a community,
(00:23):
it becomes a community building practice
that strengthens our mental health as we learn from our neighbors.
I will be interviewing people from all walks of life to
learn how listening has informed them in their field,
and help them to make intelligent decisions.
They will be artists, musicians, composers, dancers, business people,
(00:46):
psychologists, neuroscientists, and Buddhists, to name a few.
About me, I'm an internationally exhibiting sound-based artist.
In my work, Discovering Unheard Sounds,
I realized that the core component that drove my work was simply listening.
That realization put me on the path of speaking about and
(01:08):
helping people learn to become better listeners.
I began with leading sound walks,
which I continue to do in the upstate New York region,
to help people learn to listen from nature.
Now tune your ears to this podcast to learn about the power of listening.
Do pay attention until the end for further information on how to start
(01:32):
your own listening practice, share it with others,
and to support listening with China Blue.
In this episode, I interview Mia Lobel.
Mia is a veteran audio producer, manager,
and educator who spent her career championing creativity,
diversity, and character-driven storytelling.
(01:54):
She has worked with the best writers, journalists,
and intellectuals to help them achieve their vision in sound.
She was the managing producer and lead producer for Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History.
As VP of content and production for his Pushkin Industries Company,
she oversaw the creation of 28 podcasts.
(02:16):
She says that she believes that happy people do great work,
and she leads by creating a culture of kindness.
She also recommends that you should always take a podcast out for a walk.
Welcome, Mia.
Hi, China Blue.
Good morning, Mia.
Good morning.
Given your long history in audio,
(02:37):
I thought we would start at the beginning to give the audience a reference point.
My question is, how did you get into audio and why was it so transformative?
Yeah. Well, I like to tell this story about when I was in college.
I wasn't like an NPR baby,
like a backseat NPR listener that wasn't my dad only ever listened to classical music and the Beatles.
(03:03):
I didn't have NPR on my radar.
When I got to college, but I was into music.
I did love music and I loved theater.
I got to college and I took this class called The Meaning of Memory.
Basically, a class all about the Holocaust.
(03:25):
My grandparents were Holocaust survivors.
So I decided for the final paper for this class that I was going to
interview them about their experience and I was just going to do an oral history,
just to learn about their lives from beginning to end.
I were beginning to where we were then when they were in their,
I'm trying to think, 70s or 80s, I'm not sure.
(03:49):
I was not a very fast note taker.
I really was much more of a listener.
I was just better at that.
I had really messy handwriting,
I'm a lefty, so my writing was just all over the place.
I decided that instead of trying to furiously take notes to get it all down,
I would record them.
I bought this tiny little mini cassette recorder,
crappy cheap thing that I got at Radio Shack or something.
(04:12):
I put it down on the table in front of us and I did my interview and I just listened to them talk.
Then I had to go back and transcribe these interviews.
What I realized is that when I was listening back to the tapes,
there was something about hearing their voices played back to me after the fact,
when I didn't have to be actively listening,
(04:34):
when I was just taking down the words.
It hit me in this wholly new way and I was really moved by it.
The sound of their laughter and the sound of their,
actually there was laughter to even telling stories about the Holocaust.
The sound of their, there wasn't crying,
but there was emotion.
(04:57):
It just really stayed with me.
When I came back and I left it there,
when I went to grad school for journalism,
I thought I was going to be a photojournalist,
but we had this required class introduction to audio class.
When I took that class,
I was brought back to that tape and to that experience.
(05:20):
It just occurred to me that I could do that,
that I could tell stories in that way with sound only.
The challenge of not having the visuals there.
As a photographer, I was like,
what would happen if you took away the visuals?
That hooked me in a whole new way.
That was the start of my radio slash audio career.
(05:42):
I've been doing it ever since, so it's been a long time.
What a fascinating beginning. I love it.
I know that when we spoke about this offline,
you had said to me that it was transformative.
I love this statement that you made.
It said, because of the power of the human voice,
(06:03):
it can change you.
It is about how it carries humor, emotion,
humanity, as well as information.
Yeah, well, in journalism,
it's so much about passing along the facts.
You want to get information to the people.
But when you do audio storytelling,
(06:25):
there's a lot more to it than that.
It's really bringing people along on a journey,
and that includes ups and downs and highs and lows
and all these things that can be transferred through sound,
which I think is so amazing.
Yeah, and given your long history
of storytelling with audio,
(06:46):
we were also speaking about the fact that
you had mentioned that listening can occur
on different levels, and I wanted to talk to you
about your way of thinking about listening.
Yeah, I mean, I have to listen.
I listen for my work, right?
That is my actual job,
and there are so many different aspects of that,
(07:07):
depending on what part of my job I'm doing.
So in the beginning of a storytelling stage,
I'm often listening to fully recorded conversations,
just raw conversations, just to see what jumps out.
What are the best moments?
What are the golden nuggets is one of the terms.
I think Ira Glass came up with that.
Just really sort of broad strokes, interesting moments.
(07:32):
So I'm listening for that.
In other kinds of listens, like at the tail end of a project,
I'm listening for any kind of bad edit.
It's a more technical listen.
I'm listening just to see, like, okay, is the volume right?
Is it all fluid?
Does it just sound good to the ear?
Like kind of, are there any digital artifacts
(07:52):
or things that we need to fix?
And then there's listening for the story, right?
Then there's, and it's interesting
because I think it's sort of a more active way of listening
and a more passive way of listening,
where you just let a story wash over you
and you're not really listening hard.
You're not like looking for something in particular,
(08:12):
but you're taking it in in a much deeper way.
It's affecting, if a story is working,
it's gonna really affect you in this much deeper way
and sort of depending on what part of my job I'm doing.
And that's how I listen when I'm like doing a story edit,
for example, if I'm just letting a story kind of wash over me
and see like, okay, does the structure of this story work?
(08:35):
You know, are there moments where I'm drifting
and not paying attention anymore?
Are there moments where I'm really
completely invested in this?
And what changes do I need to make
to help make this story go better?
So really like there's some, I mean,
that was four different types of listening, I think.
There's probably more if I thought about it.
Those are sort of the first ones that come to mind.
(08:57):
Right, right.
And each one you can delve into in depth, I'm sure.
But what was coming to my mind was the fact that also,
after you do all of that, you review all the material,
you think about it from listening
from all these different vantage points,
but then also you as a producer come back and supplement it
(09:19):
with additional audio like music, for example.
Can you tell me a little bit about your process doing that?
Yeah, that's, I mean, you know, it's been a little while
since I've gotten to do that type of work,
but it's really some of my favorite work to do.
I'm not a composer myself.
I used to play piano and clarinet and I sing,
(09:44):
but I'm not, you know, I don't make music on my own,
but I love to take other people's music and manipulate it
for the purposes of story.
And I had this amazing collaboration
with an incredible composer named Luis Guerra,
who's out in Los Angeles,
and he did all the music for Revisionist History,
which is the show that I helped develop
(10:06):
with Malcolm Gladwell,
and music was a really big part of that.
And because we were telling historical stories
that didn't necessarily have,
we didn't have tape for everything, you know,
if you're gonna try to make the sound of,
I don't know, I'm not gonna be able to come up
with an example off the top of my head,
but you know, we had to try to make these historical moments
come to life and we didn't always have tape to do that.
(10:28):
You know, sometimes we would have archival tape,
but sometimes we didn't.
And so I would go to Luis and I would say,
okay, you know, I need the sound
of a 1970s basketball game,
but not the actual sound, like just the mood of it, right?
And he would kind of go off and compose something
and hand it back to me.
And then I would get to take it and manipulate it,
(10:51):
you know, make it longer or shorter,
you know, looping the beats and things like that.
And I'm not even, you know,
I was just figuring this out as I go.
I don't have any specific training in this,
but I was able to add this layer of scoring
to our episodes and it was so much fun.
And it just, it was really like,
(11:12):
you have to listen to both the content of the story, right?
Like where and when and who,
and also the rhythm of the speaking, you know,
the rhythm of the tape,
and then the mood that you want to evoke
and kind of make choices about the music based on that,
and the emotion that you want to attach
to the story at that point.
(11:35):
And it was just so much fun.
And we had so many different types of stories
that I was able to, you know, and I did this
for about seven seasons, 10 episodes a season.
So 70 different times, 70 different stories,
I got to, you know, play with music in this way.
And I would probably use,
(11:55):
Luis would make me about five original themes,
we would call them for each episode in a certain mood,
but using different rhythms,
different instrumentation, stuff like that.
And so I, you know, so I don't know, do the math.
It's a lot, it was a lot of music that I got to play with.
And it was, yeah, it was really fun and really,
and I think it worked, you know,
people really responded to that show,
(12:16):
especially in the early days, and they still are,
but it was pretty unique at the time that we were doing it.
This was in, the show came out in 2016.
So this was like early podcast days,
and it had a different sound than a lot of other shows
that were out there at that time.
And I think a lot of that was because of Luis's music,
and in part, because of the way that we used it in the show.
(12:38):
And so, oh, wow, that's so amazing.
You know, I was thinking about how,
when you were talking about your whole process,
how listening drove your creativity
in a very broad stroke of putting that,
because you bear down on all the particular details
(13:01):
of how it helped you and how it inspired you too.
Well, and what I would do, you're reminding me,
what I would do is, I was very familiar with the story
without the music before I had the music in hand.
So Malcolm would be doing his reporting and his writing,
and we would have gone through the scripts a bunch of times.
And by the time it came to scoring, I really knew it.
(13:23):
I knew the story, I knew all the characters,
I knew exactly what was there.
So Luis would give me his themes for that episode,
and I would sometimes pull into old themes,
you know, especially in later seasons,
I would sort of like just go through,
and I would just listen to the music without the story.
And I would be like, okay, what moment does this,
I would do this little matching game in my head,
(13:44):
like what moment do I think this would work with,
or what instrument is this character really calling for?
And then I would drop the music into the episode,
and I would kind of listen to it,
and then I would move it forward and backward,
and I would start to change the length of it,
and it would kind of come together
in this very organic way.
(14:05):
And I was often doing this in the middle of the night,
because I needed quiet, and I didn't have a lot of quiet,
and so it was this very intense,
this really intense and fun experience
about really like listening to the music and feeling it,
and then putting it together with certain,
it was always with characters.
I really connected the music with certain characters,
(14:26):
more so than scenes.
And then that character, whenever that character
would come back, that same theme would come back.
And even today, if I hear these,
if I hear one of the themes, I can connect it to that,
I have that character comes up in my head.
So in a way, it's sort of, do you see it as a backdrop
(14:47):
or an augmentation to the character?
How does it engage with the character?
Well, it has to be subtle, right?
Because the story needs to be front and center,
but I don't think of it as background at all.
I think of it as augmentation.
I like that word, right?
It's something that brings the character to life
on another level.
It tells you more about that character in the story.
(15:11):
And these are true, this is all nonfiction.
These are real people.
They're not fictional characters.
These are real people.
But I've sort of assigned them a mood and a theme
and an instrument in my head and a pace.
Well, their voice often dictates the pace,
but it's definitely something that adds to their character
for the purposes of the story.
(15:34):
It reminds, this conversation is reminding me a lot
of how music is composed for film.
Hmm.
Luis is a film composer, actually.
This was the first, I think one of the first podcasts
he had done.
So it's very much like that,
but I don't have any experience in film.
I'd love to hear how it's similar.
(15:55):
Well, when you're watching a film,
listen to the soundtrack very attentively.
I mean, besides the vocalization of the character,
there's always usually always music in the background.
But as you will notice, when a new scene starts,
this is more recently, about one or two
(16:16):
or maybe three seconds before the scene,
you'll hear the sound of the scene before it starts
to sort of prime you for a change.
And this scene changes, and then listen attentively
to the soundtrack that goes underneath it
and how it basically, right now,
it's designed to drive your emotions.
(16:39):
So it's so funny you mentioned that
because I definitely think about that when working in audio,
which I know so well, but I never think about it in film.
I've never noticed it.
I know it has an effect on me,
but I never noticed it at that detail.
And when I, I've done a lot of teaching
and there are people who kind of came up
and took over revisionist history from me
(17:01):
and incredible team of other producers.
And I would sort of talk about how the sound
that has done the best is gonna be invisible.
It's gonna have an impact on you,
but listeners are not gonna notice.
You're gonna put your blood, sweat and tears into this,
into every little detail of timing and pacing
and all of that, but the listener's not gonna notice.
(17:23):
And it sounds like that's what you're describing in film,
which is how it affects, how it impacts me
is at this very sort of very subtle level that I,
I would not have noticed in detail
the way you just described it,
but that's how I think about it in audio.
So I'll have to pay more attention.
See if I can-
Next time you watch a film, pay attention,
especially ones that have emotional scenes
(17:45):
where there's a car crash, which is,
this is so common nowadays, a car crash
or some heightened emotional situation
where people are in conflict, for example.
You can, you can listen, if you would listen to the music,
it's sort of slowly, slowly, slowly ramping up
as the emotional content of the scene increases
(18:05):
and increases and increases.
And then there's some kind of explosion.
And so that that's paralleled with the,
with some kind of emotional drama in the audio part.
And then, and then there's the resolution.
And there's the resolution, of course.
So then the audio becomes a little bit more,
you know, it sort of massages the emotions in a sense.
(18:28):
Well, and I know you can feel,
I mean, I love to watch movies and TV
and I get so into it, you know,
and I'm sure that's working on, you know,
all that, all that you're describing
is working on you in this very deep level,
but to be able to pick out the exact thing that's happening
takes an amount of, you know, skill, production skill,
you know, that in film.
(18:49):
And I think it's kind of interesting
that you as an audio aficionado
is not paying attention to that in a way that's great
because you're allowing the film
to have its full impact on you.
Well, and so this is another thing that I think about
with working in audio only is that,
like, visuals are distracting.
(19:11):
You know, like, they take so much of your attention,
like to the point where even as a sound person,
I don't notice the soundtrack in a film or TV
because I'm so absorbed in the visuals and what's happening.
That's taking almost all of my attention.
And in audio, you don't have that distraction.
(19:31):
So, you know, so things work,
stories work on you in a whole different way.
I mean, it can still, it's still true
that if the sound is done well, you're not gonna notice it.
But if the sound is done poorly in audio,
I mean, the piece is ruined.
You know, if you have poor quality sound in a story,
it really stands out.
(19:51):
It really, even if you don't notice what's wrong with it,
it takes you out of the story in a really,
you know, dramatic way.
And that's one of the things I love about it
is that there's nothing to hide behind.
And I like that about it.
I think it's a good challenge.
(20:13):
Oh, yeah.
Well, having that raw emotion is really wonderful.
I've never thought it personally.
I'm always trying to sort of hide behind my emotions
and filter them a little bit
so that they're not so dramatic in my conversations.
(20:33):
And yet, the more I speak to people,
especially in doing podcasts,
the more I realize that, oh, wow,
emotions are really important.
People are not scared to hear them,
and actually they respond to them,
as opposed to trying to filter them
or protect an audience
(20:56):
from hearing something that's painful, for example.
So that's been my lesson.
But speaking more about you,
I wanted to go back with you
to the first time you were,
the beginning when you almost didn't work
(21:17):
with Malcolm Gladwell,
and you were telling me a story about how
it was about not listening.
Do you remember that story?
Is this the story of when I first met him?
And I...
(21:38):
I'm trying to remember what I said.
I apologize.
Oh, okay.
I apologize.
About where he approached you to do,
to work for him, and...
Oh, sure.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes, okay.
Trying not to tell the story, you know.
Right, right, right.
Well, yeah, so when I first,
(21:59):
I didn't know him.
I had been working on a show about foreign policy.
I was executive producing a show about foreign policy.
And it wasn't a great experience.
The show was fine, but I had kind of a bad boss
in this situation.
And I was, you know, I left that,
and I was starting to freelance again.
(22:21):
And a friend of mine brought me in
to meet with Malcolm Gladwell.
And I didn't know him.
I didn't know anything about him.
And I just sort of,
I would ever, I had some ideas in my head
about what he was gonna be like.
And what I had to do was they gave me an outline
of Revisionist's history.
This is in 2014, maybe 2015.
And they asked me to come in for a meeting with him
(22:45):
to talk about it.
And what I saw in this outline was,
you know, it was all about cars, economics, sports,
and like every person that he was so close to,
and like every person that he was suggesting,
he interviewed was a man.
And I was like, no way, dude.
Like, you know, he's like, well, what do you think?
(23:07):
And I was like, yeah, there's some really, you know,
I'm a positive person.
I'm not mean.
And this was a famous, I'm meeting a famous person.
So I was not, I was, you know, I did this very nicely.
But I basically said, you know, here's what I see.
And if you ever want women to listen to this podcast,
you're gonna have to make some changes.
And here I was thinking like, okay, that's it.
(23:27):
You know, I just, I like, wasn't gonna have another bad boss.
I was just, I felt like I had nothing to lose.
And I just, that's what I said to Malcolm Godwell.
And I was ready to kind of be escorted out the door,
like, thank you very much, next.
And that's not at all what happened.
Malcolm kind of looked down at his script
and kind of paused for a minute.
And he looked back up at me and he was like,
(23:49):
oh, you're right.
And I was like, oh, wait, really?
Oh, okay.
Well, maybe we can work together here.
And it really, you know, and I really did believe that.
I mean, I know there are plenty of women
who are interested in cars and economics
and, you know, sports, of course,
(24:09):
but it was so narrowly focused.
And he was just thinking about, you know,
in order to make a show that is gonna be appealing
to a broad audience, you do need to expand beyond that.
And most especially in the guests that you bring on
to talk to.
And that started this really amazing relationship with him
where, you know, he really listened to me, you know?
(24:31):
I just didn't think that he would,
I kind of was like, I'm a nobody.
Like, why is Malcolm Gladwell gonna listen to me?
But he really did.
And, you know, he didn't always take my advice, certainly,
but it sort of became this relationship where he would,
he would look to me to tell him the truth
about what I felt about what he was doing.
(24:53):
And that was such a, it was such a gift, you know?
It was such a revelation,
especially having previously been in a position
where I was basically invisible,
even though I was supposed to be in charge of the show.
And that's not what this was like at all.
And it was really, you know,
Malcolm was so generous with his compliments.
(25:17):
And he would say, you know,
this episode started out as a B minus
and because of you, it's an A, you know?
And I would basically like, you know,
and that's listening to a first draft and saying like,
eh, you know, this isn't really, this scene isn't working.
I'm not understanding what you're saying.
I'm not feeling it.
This character isn't coming through.
I don't get it, you know, saying stuff like that.
(25:39):
And I, it sort of occurred to me
that when you reach the level of fame that Malcolm has,
not everyone tells you the truth.
You know, a lot of people tell you what you want to hear.
And I didn't do that.
And from the beginning, I just, I like, wasn't in the mood
and I, you know, and I didn't do it.
And it really, it was just really wonderful.
(26:00):
It was wonderful to be heard in that way.
And I also really listened to him, you know,
he was pulling some really unique moves in audio
that hadn't been done before.
Like I was always trained that like,
audio has to be linear, right?
Because you don't have those visuals.
You have to tell a story in this very linear fashion.
And he was like, uh-uh, I'm gonna tell,
(26:21):
I'm gonna start the story here
and then I'm gonna go into the past
and I'm gonna tell a story over here
and then I'm gonna jump over here
and then I'm gonna come back here.
And me and my editor, Julia Barton would be like,
oh, I don't know, is this gonna work?
And, you know, it did work and it was really amazing.
So I listened to his sort of unique take
on how our audio storytelling could go.
(26:42):
And he listened to my feedback
and it created this wonderful team.
It was really great.
Awesome.
That's so awesome.
But it did start out with not, you know,
me worrying about people not listening.
(27:02):
Right, right, right, right.
And people did listen.
It did, the show, you know, the show became really,
really big and lots and lots of people listened
and listened then and still listen now.
Right, right.
And by putting down your foot in the very beginning,
you gained a lot of respect from him.
I think that that's how it started, right?
(27:24):
Yeah, totally unexpectedly, yes.
I did not think that's what would happen,
but yes, that is what happened.
And I'm so grateful to him and for that whole experience.
Well, not only that, that led to, what was it?
28 podcasts with Pushkin Industries.
(27:44):
Yes, it led to me.
It led to this, you know,
because we had such a good trusting relationship,
he brought me along, you know,
revisionist history started at this company
called Panoply Media.
And when that company shifted gears,
they didn't wanna make content anymore.
Malcolm and his friend, Jacob Weisberg,
(28:05):
started another company called Pushkin Industries
and they asked me to come along and run production
on that show.
And by the time I left that job, four years later,
we had been doing, we had 28 or something podcasts
that I was responsible for all of them, which was a lot.
Just being responsible for one is a lot for me, but yes.
(28:28):
I wasn't doing the hands-on work of, you know,
I really only kept the hands-on work on revisionist history
and then I even had to let that one go.
But I was ultimately responsible for making sure
they got done by this incredible team of people
that we hired, so.
Sure, sure.
Well, yeah, I can imagine that you couldn't be
(28:49):
in the trenches with every single podcast.
I could not, I could not.
But I miss listening, you know,
I mean, just speaking about listening,
since, you know, my listening became much more surface.
You know, I really would just do sort of a quick,
a quick sort of scan to make sure that the shows, you know,
(29:12):
for a lot of the shows that I was responsible for,
I would just give it a quick listen.
Like, are there any red flags?
Is there anything, you know, really noticeably wrong
with this?
If not, great, get it out there, you know?
And I didn't love that, you know?
It felt really surface, you know?
It's different, I like the really intense listening,
(29:33):
even if I'm not the one making the audio,
like doing the working in Pro Tools
and doing the hands-on production,
I still like doing a really deep listen
where I'm really getting into the story.
And I missed that, I missed when, you know,
when I was responsible for so much,
I really missed getting to do listening at that deep level.
Well, yeah, yeah, because it feels satisfying.
(29:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, as opposed to just sort of checking a box,
like, okay, yes, this is fine, you know?
What can I, like, as opposed to like,
okay, where am I moved?
Where am I losing focus?
Where am I feeling different things?
And how does that, you know, I just didn't, you know,
it takes time to, and it takes more than one listen
(30:15):
to really get that.
But also it takes emotion
and investing the energy into the emotion of listening,
listening to something that's deep.
Absolutely, and focus, right?
And when you're so, when you have a million things to do,
(30:36):
it's really hard to, it's really hard to get that focus.
Yeah, yeah, and when you have a million things to do,
it's hard to assign some kind of emotional content
because it takes you away from your checkoff list.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So I'm trying to get back to that, right?
The work I'm trying to do now is a lot more,
(30:57):
you know, requires more of that focus, fewer projects,
more, you know, deeper projects, that kind of thing.
Right, right, and I know that your interest
is in storytelling, and this sort of underscores
how important storytelling is.
Mm-hmm.
And we should get away from Malcolm Gladwell
(31:19):
because you've spent a lot of time, of course,
working with him, but there are some other storytellers
that you have mentioned that you've worked with.
You actually mentioned you've worked with
some of the best storytellers in the planet.
It's true, I've been very lucky.
Oh, wow.
So tell me a little bit about that.
(31:40):
Well, I'll tell you, I mean, right now,
I'm working with a journalist named Jane Perlez,
and she's the former Beijing Bureau Chief
for the New York Times, and she now,
I helped her create this podcast called Face Off,
the US versus China, and I love working with her
to tell stories because, you know, it's not an,
(32:01):
it's, you know, narrative stories are very expensive to make,
and a lot of people don't have the budget
for that sort of thing.
And so I'm working with her, or I worked with her last year
to develop this show that feels narrative,
but is a lot, it's more interview-based, right?
Like we basically created this format
where we have a very short narrative top of the show,
(32:24):
and then she does an interview,
and then there's a little analysis at the end
with another friend of hers,
the esteemed historian, Ronna Mitter.
And the top part of every episode,
we try to get her to tell a story.
A personal story, because she has been everywhere.
She knows everyone.
She's such a, just incredible.
(32:47):
She's a very reluctant storyteller.
You know, she likes, she's a journalist.
You know, I always tell her she's a capital J journalist,
right, New York Times, you know, like, she just,
she's all, she doesn't like to talk about herself.
She likes to give the information, but in a podcast,
you really do need to have that personal connection.
And so my producer, Nina Porzucchi,
and I have really been encouraging her
(33:09):
to share more of herself.
And my favorite episodes are the ones
where she really just goes into it.
So we did an episode last season about nuclear weapons.
You know, it's such an intense topic,
really challenging material.
But at the top of the episode,
she talked about this movie that she loved
when she was a kid called On the Beach.
(33:29):
It was an Oscar-winning movie with Fred Astaire and,
oh, I'm blanking on who else was in it,
but it was just this incredible movie.
And she talked about, and it took place in Australia,
and she's from Australia.
And she told the story of going to see this movie
when she was a kid.
And it was just, and we used music, of course, you know,
from the, we used a little bit of music from the movie,
(33:50):
but we also have a composer who is creating some music
for us and doing the sound design.
And it just had this beautiful entryway
into such a difficult topic.
In a way that I think makes it so much more compelling
and palatable as a story.
And then she interviews this, you know,
really interesting person,
and she goes on and does her analysis after that.
(34:12):
But that narrative storytelling top
is just my favorite part.
And I think she really likes it too.
I think she, you know, even though she's a bit reluctant
to talk about herself,
I think she does like how it comes out in the end.
And so we're trying to get her to talk about it
in a way that's really interesting.
So we're trying to get her, you know, in season two,
we're trying to find any little moment
(34:33):
that she can like share an aspect of, you know,
her own personal experience.
So that's somebody, you know,
that's something that I'm doing more recently.
Well, everybody has a wealth of experiences,
but rarely are they asked to tell their stories
(34:55):
to a broad public, you know,
every once in a while it'll come back out
as a part of a conversational point.
When you're talking to a friend or something,
oh, well, when I was like in this scenario, it popped up.
And it's kind of interesting
when you give somebody else the microphone
(35:17):
and you say, tell me your story,
there is a shyness that begins.
Yeah, and we've tried to do it in lots of different ways.
You know, my producer, Nina,
is just really great at getting Jane to relax.
And so she'll actually interview her
instead of saying, okay, tell me this story, right?
She'll just get her talking.
(35:38):
And then sometimes that'll work by itself.
Like we can just use that tape
and we'll just let the casual,
you know, the actual telling of the story to Nina
as the sound.
Other times we have to finesse it and write it, you know,
write it out and then record it more like a, you know,
like a narration.
So depending on how to do that.
(35:59):
But yeah, it is, I mean, it is a scary thing.
I mean, that's often why I'm on the other side of the mic
and not on this side of the mic.
It's much easier to be the one,
I think it's easier to be the one asking the questions
than answering them.
But it is a, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
But coming back to the original point,
which is that people have this wealth of experiences.
(36:23):
And they're in general,
they're not accustomed to telling their stories
unless they're put on point.
And then of course there's that moment of discomfort of,
oh, my story is interesting or how do I tell this story?
Or I mean, for me, there's all these little question marks
(36:44):
that pop up and then, you know,
you can't wait too long before you tell the story.
So something comes out of your mouth.
Right, right.
There's a great, you know,
another incredible local talent,
Suzanne Snyder does the, or she teaches oral history.
(37:05):
And I took one of her classes and she does this exercise
where you just have to sit in silence.
For we did it for five minutes,
sitting with a partner
and just sitting in silence for five minutes
and nobody filling the space.
And it was one of the most difficult things
that I've ever done in a sort of a journalistic context.
(37:26):
And the lesson there is that
when you are sitting across from someone
and really listening, you know, it's a silent act, right?
And that's, and just letting that space exist
and just sitting and listening to the silence
(37:47):
and like, you can really get so much out of it.
And it was so, it was shocking.
It was kind of revelatory to me.
And I really, I'm a space filler, you know, I'm totally,
if you leave a silence, like I will talk.
You can tell, you know, I just,
even if I don't have anything to say,
like I will fill that silence.
And so when I'm doing the interviewing,
I really try hard to leave space.
(38:10):
I mean, it would never be as long as five minutes, you know,
but I try to remember that exercise
and I try to really control myself
and ask a question and then just sit.
And after, actually in journalism classes,
they teach you like after someone is done speaking,
be silent for another, I don't know how long,
(38:31):
five, 10 seconds and just see if they're really done
or if there's more, or if you ask a question to like a class
and nobody says anything right away, just sit.
And somebody will speak eventually, but it's hard.
It's really, really hard to do for me anyway,
(38:54):
to just sit in silence.
Well, there's also, I think about the fact
of sitting in a school scenario.
There's a moment when you have to sort of allow
the question to percolate and then the process
of composing an answer might or might not come out quickly.
(39:16):
So there's that process that each individual
has to go through to sort of compose their thoughts
and compose what they want to say.
Yeah, and it's funny, you know,
I've actually used Zoom, like the tools that Zoom offers
as a way to help practice,
(39:36):
because I'm so inclined to jump right in
and not let the question kind of percolate
and give people time.
And so I will actively mute myself.
Like when I'm in the teacher role, I will ask a question
and then I will just mute myself.
And seeing that, like the little light comes on, right?
So it's like a reminder, like,
don't, nope, it's not your turn anymore, it's their turn.
(40:00):
So that helps me, you know, even if I wanted to,
they're not gonna hear me.
So it really, it's actually just been kind of an interesting
self-reflective practice that I've developed for myself
when I'm trying to not fill space.
But you're right, I mean, people need, they need time.
(40:22):
And it can feel awkward, but I think it's really,
really important.
You know, I was also thinking,
about your listening process when you listen to podcasts.
And you had told me a story about how you listened
to your podcasts, not in the general focusing
(40:44):
on all the details, but from the very, very beginning.
You had said to me that you like to take a podcast
out for a walk.
Tell me about walking with your podcast.
So I do, I say, I like, I am a much better listener
when I'm moving.
(41:06):
So, and I don't know why, there's probably some
physiological reason for that.
I really don't know, but what I,
the reason I started doing that is because when I was,
again, making Revisionist History, I spent so much time
sitting at my computer doing the hands-on, you know,
it would be hours and hours and hours of this like really
(41:27):
intense, you know, head, like the big headphones on,
like just listening to every little detail,
every little detail.
And when I was done, I needed to, I needed to step away.
I needed to, I mean, I needed to literally get up,
take my headphones off and walk away from it.
(41:48):
And I needed time and that to kind of forget about all the,
all that kind of detailed work.
And then when I was ready to see how I did, and like I said,
I was often doing this in the middle,
in the middle of the night and I would get into this kind of
dream state. It was, it was, it was fascinating.
But I, I,
I needed to listen in a completely different way to see how,
(42:11):
if my work was landing.
And so I would just take it for a walk.
I would just, I would just, I would just,
I would just put in my earbuds. I wouldn't wear my big cans.
I would like put in my earbuds and I would go outside and just
walk with it. And I wouldn't take notes. I wouldn't like,
well, I actually usually would take a notebook with me in case I
heard something that I knew I needed to fix,
but I tried not to do it because I didn't want to lose the time
(42:33):
code. You know, I just had to like write down where it was.
But I would try not to do that.
I would try to just walk and let it wash over me and all the
distractions, you know, dogs walking by and,
and people mowing their lawns and, you know, I live in the country.
So there, these are the kinds of things we hear,
not a lot of traffic noise, birds chirping, you know, just like.
The, the, the natural distracting sounds.
(42:55):
And it helped me hear the piece.
At a completely different level.
And it works so well to let me one,
not focus on the too many things that I'm doing.
I'm not focusing on the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
there are so many tools that are new to me right now
(43:17):
that I don't know how to use.
To help you hear it.
You know,
I sort of joked with my team that like,
because I would ask for changes that like no regular human would ever
notice, like, oh, there was a tiny little mouth clicks.
(43:38):
I had my colleague Julia barn is has a thing called misophonia where
with distractions, you don't hear that stuff.
And so you can really just listen to the story
and whether it's landing.
And so that's just become a very regular practice for me,
whatever I'm working on, to just take it for a walk.
That's sort of become my default sort of phrase
(43:58):
for when you need to step away from a really kind of detailed
listen and just see if it's working, big picture.
And I love it.
It's now my favorite way.
When I listen to audio books, when I listen to anything,
I much prefer to listen while I'm
moving.
And I just, and it gets in my, even if I'm not 100% focused
on that sound, it is still touching me in a deeper way
(44:19):
because I'm moving my body and because I'm,
I don't know, I wish I knew the science of it.
I wish I understood like what that was,
but I feel like it sinks in better when I listen like that.
So yeah, that's how I, that take it for a walk.
I think your podcast for a walk, I actually do it for my students
(44:40):
now too.
I'm like, when you're done, when you think you're done,
take it for a walk and then see if you're really done.
It's such a beautiful image.
I just love it.
And it's good for you too.
I mean, it's good to, you know, a lot of reporters and producers
spend a lot of time sitting, so it's good for you to just get
(45:01):
up and move on many levels.
Well, I think that also integrates whatever you're listening into
your body as action and somehow, somehow initiates.
I don't know, I'm lacking in being able to explain it exactly.
(45:23):
I've read a lot about how motion and listening gets integrated
into the body and into the mind.
And that's about as far as I can go with my explanation.
Something to study, something, some future study.
I like that.
Oh, beautiful.
You know, I love, I love that particular arc and yeah, it's put
(45:44):
a little star on it and say, and future things to think about.
Well, and I know with dance, you know, you really need, you're
moving to feet and you're feeling the music and it's impacting
you, but I think it works with stories.
I think it's a good thing.
It's just happening on a different level.
You're absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I think it's our bodies are what, 95% water, 7% water.
(46:10):
So any of the vibrations, sonic vibrations become a part of our
body immediately.
So there's that part too.
There's a physiological impact of, of vibration.
So taking it out of the walking and into the driving, you had
mentioned to me and something I wasn't familiar with was the
(46:32):
driveway moment.
That's an old, yeah, that's an old kind of public radio term.
I think that was also Ira Glass, if I'm not mistaken or similar.
You know, it was this, the goal of, of any producer or storyteller
is to, you know, one of the things, you know, radio is in your car,
(46:53):
right?
Like that's how, that's how people used to listen.
Now you can take your podcast anywhere.
And the goal and you're, you're often doing something else while
you're listening, right?
So the goal that we would talk about is to capture your listener
so intensely that they can't get out of their car when they've arrived
at their destination.
(47:13):
They just have to sit there and they have to be able to, you know,
get to their destination, they just have to sit there and finish
listening.
And that's the, that's what we call a driveway moment where you're
just, you just sitting there seatbelt on, maybe the car is still
running and you just have to finish the story.
And we live such in such sort of distracted worlds, you know,
(47:36):
there's so much going on all the time.
And so if a story really can do that for you, if you like, the
other, the other one is like, you forget the dish in your hand,
right?
Like if you're washing dishes, right?
Like you, you, you don't want the pile of dishes to end because
you want to keep listening.
You know, that's, that's sort of a definition of success or you
don't mind your workout, right?
(47:57):
Like these are things like we talk about, like the great, a great
podcast is the length of a workout or the length of a pile of dishes
or whatever, you know, the length of a load of laundry folding and,
and this sense of like not wanting these mundane tasks to end because
the story is so good.
You just want it, you know, you want to finish it.
You don't want to move on to the next thing.
So that's, that's what that term, excuse me, that's what that term is
(48:21):
about.
It's been around for a very long time, but I kind of love it.
And it's still, you know, it still applies.
Right, right.
Absolutely.
It was new to me, but you know, I, I'm always wanting the Monday
tasks to be over long before I start them.
So looking forward to them is kind of an interesting thing to think
about in listening to a podcast.
(48:44):
I'm going to have to try that because I had, I had allowed my laundry
to pile up after it was clean.
You know, I w I just couldn't somehow getting around to the folding
and the putting it away is just so mundane.
It drives me crazy.
I can, and I don't have that much, right?
(49:05):
You know, it's really easy.
And I was thinking yesterday or when I was doing it that I thought, well,
if I were to time this, I bet you this takes me only what three to five
minutes to put it.
And no, I don't fold my underwear.
No, I just glob, glob it and throw it into the drawer.
So, you know, that simplifies things a lot, but still, you know, the idea
(49:27):
of listening to something else besides my brain, you know, whining about
how boring folding laundry is, I could easily distract myself, you know,
by something else.
And I'm going to have to try that.
Well, and you also then get that, you know, since you're, you are moving,
right?
You're doing, you have that other task.
(49:48):
So that's taking up that part of your brain and then you're, you know, you
have different space available for listening.
I've also taken this is, I don't know, this might be a little weird, but I
I've taken to, if I, if I can't be out walking, so in the winter, especially
to doing puzzles while I listen.
And it, and it just takes up one sort of very distracted part of my brain so
(50:10):
that I can listen more fully with that other part of my brain.
And I'm sure again, I'm sure there's some scientific explanation for this,
but it allows me to listen better when I have some, I know some people knit
while they're listening.
I'm not a knitter, but I've found puzzles to be a great way to just like
take up that, that thing that does that thing that like, if I just tried to
sit down and listen, I could not do it.
(50:32):
My brain just like goes in a million directions.
I cannot do it.
Right.
And so motion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So puzzles are a good one.
If I can't be outside.
And that reminds me of the fact that when I'm on a long telephone
conversation, what I inevitably do is walk into the kitchen and do
(50:53):
something in the kitchen, either prepare a meal or wash the dishes or
something, clean the surfaces or something, make myself a cup of coffee.
You know, all that motion seems it's, it will inevitably happen.
And I'll eventually have to apologize.
I say, excuse me, I have to move while I'm talking because I have to.
(51:16):
So if you hear the dishes being washed, it's not because I'm bored with
your conversation, it's actually because I'm concentrating on it,
but I have to move my body.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, I guess it comes back to taking the podcast out for a walk or
taking the conversation out for a walk.
Exactly.
(51:37):
Exactly.
I love to walk and talk.
I used to say when I was doing a lot of management, I would, you know, my
favorite kind of conversations were the ones where we would both, you know,
and I, I did a lot of my management work when I was during COVID.
So we, none of us were, we couldn't be together, but we would both take
our calls for a walk. And that's when we would do our, you know, do our
(51:57):
check-ins and see how everyone's doing.
And it just, it was like this nice little point of connection.
What are you looking at right now?
Where are you?
What's the, you know, what's the weather where you are kind of thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And every once in a while, I think, well, you know, instead of having
a meeting in an office, we should take it out to the, out to the park.
Exactly.
(52:17):
Let's have a meeting while walking around the park.
Exactly. So much nicer, so much nicer, especially if you have to, if you
have to talk about something kind of difficult.
Right.
It's just, and you know, and actually, um, uh, it just reminded me the,
the kitchen sisters are these incredible, um, longtime storytellers
and they would talk about the best interviews being when you're sitting
(52:39):
side by side. So like, and not face to face, right.
So that you can, that, that some people get very intimidated when they
are in a conversation and they're not as able to open up. So if you sit
side by side, like you're in a car, like you're driving in a car, you can,
and like having a conversation that way, you can really get much deeper
into the conversation. Um, and so when they set up interviews, you know,
(53:02):
you don't want all the distracting outdoor sound when you're trying to
get a pristine interview, but they would sit side by side and they would
hold the microphone like this, you know, you can't see this in a podcast,
but like, you know, you can't see it in a podcast, but like, you know,
in front of them and they would, they would tip it to the side, um,
instead of forward and back, it would be side to side. And in that way,
(53:22):
they were able to, um, help some of their, the people they were
interviewing, relax more into the conversation. I just love that.
And that's what happens when you're walking with somebody, right?
You have to look straight ahead so you don't bump in anything, you know,
and you can, you, you feel their presence. You're still together.
You're still, you know, it's still a very intimate thing, but you're
still, you know, it's still a very intimate thing, but you don't have
(53:45):
that sort of intense eye contact that can be very intimidating sometimes.
And so if you're having a difficult conversation, I think it can be really,
a really nice way to sort of, um, loosen the tension a little bit.
Oh, how beautiful. I'm just sort of re-imagining walking in the park with
(54:06):
somebody and having that conversation. Yeah. It,
yeah, it seems obviously easier and it's not clear why, but another research topic.
Yes, I know.
Well, you know, Mia, we've come close to the end of our time together.
(54:26):
Is there anything else you would like to add to this podcast? Is there
anything particular that you wanted to talk about or that you're involved with
right now?
Um, I don't think so. I mean, I really love this opportunity to be able to
talk about this. I really love this opportunity to, you know, like I said,
I listen for a living. It is my, it is my job. Um, and I really appreciate this
(54:47):
opportunity to think about listening on a, on a deeper level and a, on a more
sort of philosophical level. And I appreciate your having me on to talk
about this stuff. Thank you.
Well, it's really been great and I love your viewpoint and your, your
reference things. And, um, I'm looking forward to running into you and in the
(55:08):
long run. I'm looking forward to talking to you, as well as talking to
you, and I'm hoping that, that we can get to the end of relatively close.
So one day we'll have to do coffee.
Yes. And walk and talk. We can, we can walk and talk.
With our mugs in hand.
Exactly.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate this.
Thank you.
(55:30):
Thank you for tuning into this episode of listening with China Blue.
of attentively listening without judgment.
And you can ask yourself, what is your own version of a silence?
The music for this podcast is from China Blue's Saturn Walk, co-composed with Lance Massey,
(55:52):
the creator of the T-Mobile ringtone.
If you want to learn more about me and my work, go to chinablueart.com.
And also, please follow me on Facebook at chinablueart, at Instagram at chinablueart,
and on X at China Blue Art.
Welcome to Listening with China Blue.
(00:03):
This is a podcast that focuses on how
listening not only informs us about what is occurring in the world around us,
but also helps us connect with others,
build stronger businesses,
strengthens our mental health,
and become more creative and compassionate individuals.
As more and more people practice attentive listening in a community,
(00:23):
it becomes a community building practice
that strengthens our mental health as we learn from our neighbors.
I will be interviewing people from all walks of life to
learn how listening has informed them in their field,
and help them to make intelligent decisions.
They will be artists, musicians, composers, dancers, business people,
(00:46):
psychologists, neuroscientists, and Buddhists, to name a few.
About me, I'm an internationally exhibiting sound-based artist.
In my work, Discovering Unheard Sounds,
I realized that the core component that drove my work was simply listening.
That realization put me on the path of speaking about and
(01:08):
helping people learn to become better listeners.
I began with leading sound walks,
which I continue to do in the upstate New York region,
to help people learn to listen from nature.
Now tune your ears to this podcast to learn about the power of listening.
Do pay attention until the end for further information on how to start
(01:32):
your own listening practice, share it with others,
and to support listening with China Blue.
In this episode, I interview Mia Lobel.
Mia is a veteran audio producer, manager,
and educator who spent her career championing creativity,
diversity, and character-driven storytelling.
(01:54):
She has worked with the best writers, journalists,
and intellectuals to help them achieve their vision in sound.
She was the managing producer and lead producer for Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History.
As VP of content and production for his Pushkin Industries Company,
she oversaw the creation of 28 podcasts.
(02:16):
She says that she believes that happy people do great work,
and she leads by creating a culture of kindness.
She also recommends that you should always take a podcast out for a walk.
Welcome, Mia.
Hi, China Blue.
Good morning, Mia.
Good morning.
Given your long history in audio,
(02:37):
I thought we would start at the beginning to give the audience a reference point.
My question is, how did you get into audio and why was it so transformative?
Yeah. Well, I like to tell this story about when I was in college.
I wasn't like an NPR baby,
like a backseat NPR listener that wasn't my dad only ever listened to classical music and the Beatles.
(03:03):
I didn't have NPR on my radar.
When I got to college, but I was into music.
I did love music and I loved theater.
I got to college and I took this class called The Meaning of Memory.
Basically, a class all about the Holocaust.
(03:25):
My grandparents were Holocaust survivors.
So I decided for the final paper for this class that I was going to
interview them about their experience and I was just going to do an oral history,
just to learn about their lives from beginning to end.
I were beginning to where we were then when they were in their,
I'm trying to think, 70s or 80s, I'm not sure.
(03:49):
I was not a very fast note taker.
I really was much more of a listener.
I was just better at that.
I had really messy handwriting,
I'm a lefty, so my writing was just all over the place.
I decided that instead of trying to furiously take notes to get it all down,
I would record them.
I bought this tiny little mini cassette recorder,
crappy cheap thing that I got at Radio Shack or something.
(04:12):
I put it down on the table in front of us and I did my interview and I just listened to them talk.
Then I had to go back and transcribe these interviews.
What I realized is that when I was listening back to the tapes,
there was something about hearing their voices played back to me after the fact,
when I didn't have to be actively listening,
(04:34):
when I was just taking down the words.
It hit me in this wholly new way and I was really moved by it.
The sound of their laughter and the sound of their,
actually there was laughter to even telling stories about the Holocaust.
The sound of their, there wasn't crying,
but there was emotion.
(04:57):
It just really stayed with me.
When I came back and I left it there,
when I went to grad school for journalism,
I thought I was going to be a photojournalist,
but we had this required class introduction to audio class.
When I took that class,
I was brought back to that tape and to that experience.
(05:20):
It just occurred to me that I could do that,
that I could tell stories in that way with sound only.
The challenge of not having the visuals there.
As a photographer, I was like,
what would happen if you took away the visuals?
That hooked me in a whole new way.
That was the start of my radio slash audio career.
(05:42):
I've been doing it ever since, so it's been a long time.
What a fascinating beginning. I love it.
I know that when we spoke about this offline,
you had said to me that it was transformative.
I love this statement that you made.
It said, because of the power of the human voice,
(06:03):
it can change you.
It is about how it carries humor, emotion,
humanity, as well as information.
Yeah, well, in journalism,
it's so much about passing along the facts.
You want to get information to the people.
But when you do audio storytelling,
(06:25):
there's a lot more to it than that.
It's really bringing people along on a journey,
and that includes ups and downs and highs and lows
and all these things that can be transferred through sound,
which I think is so amazing.
Yeah, and given your long history
of storytelling with audio,
(06:46):
we were also speaking about the fact that
you had mentioned that listening can occur
on different levels, and I wanted to talk to you
about your way of thinking about listening.
Yeah, I mean, I have to listen.
I listen for my work, right?
That is my actual job,
and there are so many different aspects of that,
(07:07):
depending on what part of my job I'm doing.
So in the beginning of a storytelling stage,
I'm often listening to fully recorded conversations,
just raw conversations, just to see what jumps out.
What are the best moments?
What are the golden nuggets is one of the terms.
I think Ira Glass came up with that.
Just really sort of broad strokes, interesting moments.
(07:32):
So I'm listening for that.
In other kinds of listens, like at the tail end of a project,
I'm listening for any kind of bad edit.
It's a more technical listen.
I'm listening just to see, like, okay, is the volume right?
Is it all fluid?
Does it just sound good to the ear?
Like kind of, are there any digital artifacts
(07:52):
or things that we need to fix?
And then there's listening for the story, right?
Then there's, and it's interesting
because I think it's sort of a more active way of listening
and a more passive way of listening,
where you just let a story wash over you
and you're not really listening hard.
You're not like looking for something in particular,
(08:12):
but you're taking it in in a much deeper way.
It's affecting, if a story is working,
it's gonna really affect you in this much deeper way
and sort of depending on what part of my job I'm doing.
And that's how I listen when I'm like doing a story edit,
for example, if I'm just letting a story kind of wash over me
and see like, okay, does the structure of this story work?
(08:35):
You know, are there moments where I'm drifting
and not paying attention anymore?
Are there moments where I'm really
completely invested in this?
And what changes do I need to make
to help make this story go better?
So really like there's some, I mean,
that was four different types of listening, I think.
There's probably more if I thought about it.
Those are sort of the first ones that come to mind.
(08:57):
Right, right.
And each one you can delve into in depth, I'm sure.
But what was coming to my mind was the fact that also,
after you do all of that, you review all the material,
you think about it from listening
from all these different vantage points,
but then also you as a producer come back and supplement it
(09:19):
with additional audio like music, for example.
Can you tell me a little bit about your process doing that?
Yeah, that's, I mean, you know, it's been a little while
since I've gotten to do that type of work,
but it's really some of my favorite work to do.
I'm not a composer myself.
I used to play piano and clarinet and I sing,
(09:44):
but I'm not, you know, I don't make music on my own,
but I love to take other people's music and manipulate it
for the purposes of story.
And I had this amazing collaboration
with an incredible composer named Luis Guerra,
who's out in Los Angeles,
and he did all the music for Revisionist History,
which is the show that I helped develop
(10:06):
with Malcolm Gladwell,
and music was a really big part of that.
And because we were telling historical stories
that didn't necessarily have,
we didn't have tape for everything, you know,
if you're gonna try to make the sound of,
I don't know, I'm not gonna be able to come up
with an example off the top of my head,
but you know, we had to try to make these historical moments
come to life and we didn't always have tape to do that.
(10:28):
You know, sometimes we would have archival tape,
but sometimes we didn't.
And so I would go to Luis and I would say,
okay, you know, I need the sound
of a 1970s basketball game,
but not the actual sound, like just the mood of it, right?
And he would kind of go off and compose something
and hand it back to me.
And then I would get to take it and manipulate it,
(10:51):
you know, make it longer or shorter,
you know, looping the beats and things like that.
And I'm not even, you know,
I was just figuring this out as I go.
I don't have any specific training in this,
but I was able to add this layer of scoring
to our episodes and it was so much fun.
And it just, it was really like,
(11:12):
you have to listen to both the content of the story, right?
Like where and when and who,
and also the rhythm of the speaking, you know,
the rhythm of the tape,
and then the mood that you want to evoke
and kind of make choices about the music based on that,
and the emotion that you want to attach
to the story at that point.
(11:35):
And it was just so much fun.
And we had so many different types of stories
that I was able to, you know, and I did this
for about seven seasons, 10 episodes a season.
So 70 different times, 70 different stories,
I got to, you know, play with music in this way.
And I would probably use,
(11:55):
Luis would make me about five original themes,
we would call them for each episode in a certain mood,
but using different rhythms,
different instrumentation, stuff like that.
And so I, you know, so I don't know, do the math.
It's a lot, it was a lot of music that I got to play with.
And it was, yeah, it was really fun and really,
and I think it worked, you know,
people really responded to that show,
(12:16):
especially in the early days, and they still are,
but it was pretty unique at the time that we were doing it.
This was in, the show came out in 2016.
So this was like early podcast days,
and it had a different sound than a lot of other shows
that were out there at that time.
And I think a lot of that was because of Luis's music,
and in part, because of the way that we used it in the show.
(12:38):
And so, oh, wow, that's so amazing.
You know, I was thinking about how,
when you were talking about your whole process,
how listening drove your creativity
in a very broad stroke of putting that,
because you bear down on all the particular details
(13:01):
of how it helped you and how it inspired you too.
Well, and what I would do, you're reminding me,
what I would do is, I was very familiar with the story
without the music before I had the music in hand.
So Malcolm would be doing his reporting and his writing,
and we would have gone through the scripts a bunch of times.
And by the time it came to scoring, I really knew it.
(13:23):
I knew the story, I knew all the characters,
I knew exactly what was there.
So Luis would give me his themes for that episode,
and I would sometimes pull into old themes,
you know, especially in later seasons,
I would sort of like just go through,
and I would just listen to the music without the story.
And I would be like, okay, what moment does this,
I would do this little matching game in my head,
(13:44):
like what moment do I think this would work with,
or what instrument is this character really calling for?
And then I would drop the music into the episode,
and I would kind of listen to it,
and then I would move it forward and backward,
and I would start to change the length of it,
and it would kind of come together
in this very organic way.
(14:05):
And I was often doing this in the middle of the night,
because I needed quiet, and I didn't have a lot of quiet,
and so it was this very intense,
this really intense and fun experience
about really like listening to the music and feeling it,
and then putting it together with certain,
it was always with characters.
I really connected the music with certain characters,
(14:26):
more so than scenes.
And then that character, whenever that character
would come back, that same theme would come back.
And even today, if I hear these,
if I hear one of the themes, I can connect it to that,
I have that character comes up in my head.
So in a way, it's sort of, do you see it as a backdrop
(14:47):
or an augmentation to the character?
How does it engage with the character?
Well, it has to be subtle, right?
Because the story needs to be front and center,
but I don't think of it as background at all.
I think of it as augmentation.
I like that word, right?
It's something that brings the character to life
on another level.
It tells you more about that character in the story.
(15:11):
And these are true, this is all nonfiction.
These are real people.
They're not fictional characters.
These are real people.
But I've sort of assigned them a mood and a theme
and an instrument in my head and a pace.
Well, their voice often dictates the pace,
but it's definitely something that adds to their character
for the purposes of the story.
(15:34):
It reminds, this conversation is reminding me a lot
of how music is composed for film.
Hmm.
Luis is a film composer, actually.
This was the first, I think one of the first podcasts
he had done.
So it's very much like that,
but I don't have any experience in film.
I'd love to hear how it's similar.
(15:55):
Well, when you're watching a film,
listen to the soundtrack very attentively.
I mean, besides the vocalization of the character,
there's always usually always music in the background.
But as you will notice, when a new scene starts,
this is more recently, about one or two
(16:16):
or maybe three seconds before the scene,
you'll hear the sound of the scene before it starts
to sort of prime you for a change.
And this scene changes, and then listen attentively
to the soundtrack that goes underneath it
and how it basically, right now,
it's designed to drive your emotions.
(16:39):
So it's so funny you mentioned that
because I definitely think about that when working in audio,
which I know so well, but I never think about it in film.
I've never noticed it.
I know it has an effect on me,
but I never noticed it at that detail.
And when I, I've done a lot of teaching
and there are people who kind of came up
and took over revisionist history from me
(17:01):
and incredible team of other producers.
And I would sort of talk about how the sound
that has done the best is gonna be invisible.
It's gonna have an impact on you,
but listeners are not gonna notice.
You're gonna put your blood, sweat and tears into this,
into every little detail of timing and pacing
and all of that, but the listener's not gonna notice.
(17:23):
And it sounds like that's what you're describing in film,
which is how it affects, how it impacts me
is at this very sort of very subtle level that I,
I would not have noticed in detail
the way you just described it,
but that's how I think about it in audio.
So I'll have to pay more attention.
See if I can-
Next time you watch a film, pay attention,
especially ones that have emotional scenes
(17:45):
where there's a car crash, which is,
this is so common nowadays, a car crash
or some heightened emotional situation
where people are in conflict, for example.
You can, you can listen, if you would listen to the music,
it's sort of slowly, slowly, slowly ramping up
as the emotional content of the scene increases
(18:05):
and increases and increases.
And then there's some kind of explosion.
And so that that's paralleled with the,
with some kind of emotional drama in the audio part.
And then, and then there's the resolution.
And there's the resolution, of course.
So then the audio becomes a little bit more,
you know, it sort of massages the emotions in a sense.
(18:28):
Well, and I know you can feel,
I mean, I love to watch movies and TV
and I get so into it, you know,
and I'm sure that's working on, you know,
all that, all that you're describing
is working on you in this very deep level,
but to be able to pick out the exact thing that's happening
takes an amount of, you know, skill, production skill,
you know, that in film.
(18:49):
And I think it's kind of interesting
that you as an audio aficionado
is not paying attention to that in a way that's great
because you're allowing the film
to have its full impact on you.
Well, and so this is another thing that I think about
with working in audio only is that,
like, visuals are distracting.
(19:11):
You know, like, they take so much of your attention,
like to the point where even as a sound person,
I don't notice the soundtrack in a film or TV
because I'm so absorbed in the visuals and what's happening.
That's taking almost all of my attention.
And in audio, you don't have that distraction.
(19:31):
So, you know, so things work,
stories work on you in a whole different way.
I mean, it can still, it's still true
that if the sound is done well, you're not gonna notice it.
But if the sound is done poorly in audio,
I mean, the piece is ruined.
You know, if you have poor quality sound in a story,
it really stands out.
(19:51):
It really, even if you don't notice what's wrong with it,
it takes you out of the story in a really,
you know, dramatic way.
And that's one of the things I love about it
is that there's nothing to hide behind.
And I like that about it.
I think it's a good challenge.
(20:13):
Oh, yeah.
Well, having that raw emotion is really wonderful.
I've never thought it personally.
I'm always trying to sort of hide behind my emotions
and filter them a little bit
so that they're not so dramatic in my conversations.
(20:33):
And yet, the more I speak to people,
especially in doing podcasts,
the more I realize that, oh, wow,
emotions are really important.
People are not scared to hear them,
and actually they respond to them,
as opposed to trying to filter them
or protect an audience
(20:56):
from hearing something that's painful, for example.
So that's been my lesson.
But speaking more about you,
I wanted to go back with you
to the first time you were,
the beginning when you almost didn't work
(21:17):
with Malcolm Gladwell,
and you were telling me a story about how
it was about not listening.
Do you remember that story?
Is this the story of when I first met him?
And I...
(21:38):
I'm trying to remember what I said.
I apologize.
Oh, okay.
I apologize.
About where he approached you to do,
to work for him, and...
Oh, sure.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes, okay.
Trying not to tell the story, you know.
Right, right, right.
Well, yeah, so when I first,
(21:59):
I didn't know him.
I had been working on a show about foreign policy.
I was executive producing a show about foreign policy.
And it wasn't a great experience.
The show was fine, but I had kind of a bad boss
in this situation.
And I was, you know, I left that,
and I was starting to freelance again.
(22:21):
And a friend of mine brought me in
to meet with Malcolm Gladwell.
And I didn't know him.
I didn't know anything about him.
And I just sort of,
I would ever, I had some ideas in my head
about what he was gonna be like.
And what I had to do was they gave me an outline
of Revisionist's history.
This is in 2014, maybe 2015.
And they asked me to come in for a meeting with him
(22:45):
to talk about it.
And what I saw in this outline was,
you know, it was all about cars, economics, sports,
and like every person that he was so close to,
and like every person that he was suggesting,
he interviewed was a man.
And I was like, no way, dude.
Like, you know, he's like, well, what do you think?
(23:07):
And I was like, yeah, there's some really, you know,
I'm a positive person.
I'm not mean.
And this was a famous, I'm meeting a famous person.
So I was not, I was, you know, I did this very nicely.
But I basically said, you know, here's what I see.
And if you ever want women to listen to this podcast,
you're gonna have to make some changes.
And here I was thinking like, okay, that's it.
(23:27):
You know, I just, I like, wasn't gonna have another bad boss.
I was just, I felt like I had nothing to lose.
And I just, that's what I said to Malcolm Godwell.
And I was ready to kind of be escorted out the door,
like, thank you very much, next.
And that's not at all what happened.
Malcolm kind of looked down at his script
and kind of paused for a minute.
And he looked back up at me and he was like,
(23:49):
oh, you're right.
And I was like, oh, wait, really?
Oh, okay.
Well, maybe we can work together here.
And it really, you know, and I really did believe that.
I mean, I know there are plenty of women
who are interested in cars and economics
and, you know, sports, of course,
(24:09):
but it was so narrowly focused.
And he was just thinking about, you know,
in order to make a show that is gonna be appealing
to a broad audience, you do need to expand beyond that.
And most especially in the guests that you bring on
to talk to.
And that started this really amazing relationship with him
where, you know, he really listened to me, you know?
(24:31):
I just didn't think that he would,
I kind of was like, I'm a nobody.
Like, why is Malcolm Gladwell gonna listen to me?
But he really did.
And, you know, he didn't always take my advice, certainly,
but it sort of became this relationship where he would,
he would look to me to tell him the truth
about what I felt about what he was doing.
(24:53):
And that was such a, it was such a gift, you know?
It was such a revelation,
especially having previously been in a position
where I was basically invisible,
even though I was supposed to be in charge of the show.
And that's not what this was like at all.
And it was really, you know,
Malcolm was so generous with his compliments.
(25:17):
And he would say, you know,
this episode started out as a B minus
and because of you, it's an A, you know?
And I would basically like, you know,
and that's listening to a first draft and saying like,
eh, you know, this isn't really, this scene isn't working.
I'm not understanding what you're saying.
I'm not feeling it.
This character isn't coming through.
I don't get it, you know, saying stuff like that.
(25:39):
And I, it sort of occurred to me
that when you reach the level of fame that Malcolm has,
not everyone tells you the truth.
You know, a lot of people tell you what you want to hear.
And I didn't do that.
And from the beginning, I just, I like, wasn't in the mood
and I, you know, and I didn't do it.
And it really, it was just really wonderful.
(26:00):
It was wonderful to be heard in that way.
And I also really listened to him, you know,
he was pulling some really unique moves in audio
that hadn't been done before.
Like I was always trained that like,
audio has to be linear, right?
Because you don't have those visuals.
You have to tell a story in this very linear fashion.
And he was like, uh-uh, I'm gonna tell,
(26:21):
I'm gonna start the story here
and then I'm gonna go into the past
and I'm gonna tell a story over here
and then I'm gonna jump over here
and then I'm gonna come back here.
And me and my editor, Julia Barton would be like,
oh, I don't know, is this gonna work?
And, you know, it did work and it was really amazing.
So I listened to his sort of unique take
on how our audio storytelling could go.
(26:42):
And he listened to my feedback
and it created this wonderful team.
It was really great.
Awesome.
That's so awesome.
But it did start out with not, you know,
me worrying about people not listening.
(27:02):
Right, right, right, right.
And people did listen.
It did, the show, you know, the show became really,
really big and lots and lots of people listened
and listened then and still listen now.
Right, right.
And by putting down your foot in the very beginning,
you gained a lot of respect from him.
I think that that's how it started, right?
(27:24):
Yeah, totally unexpectedly, yes.
I did not think that's what would happen,
but yes, that is what happened.
And I'm so grateful to him and for that whole experience.
Well, not only that, that led to, what was it?
28 podcasts with Pushkin Industries.
(27:44):
Yes, it led to me.
It led to this, you know,
because we had such a good trusting relationship,
he brought me along, you know,
revisionist history started at this company
called Panoply Media.
And when that company shifted gears,
they didn't wanna make content anymore.
Malcolm and his friend, Jacob Weisberg,
(28:05):
started another company called Pushkin Industries
and they asked me to come along and run production
on that show.
And by the time I left that job, four years later,
we had been doing, we had 28 or something podcasts
that I was responsible for all of them, which was a lot.
Just being responsible for one is a lot for me, but yes.
(28:28):
I wasn't doing the hands-on work of, you know,
I really only kept the hands-on work on revisionist history
and then I even had to let that one go.
But I was ultimately responsible for making sure
they got done by this incredible team of people
that we hired, so.
Sure, sure.
Well, yeah, I can imagine that you couldn't be
(28:49):
in the trenches with every single podcast.
I could not, I could not.
But I miss listening, you know,
I mean, just speaking about listening,
since, you know, my listening became much more surface.
You know, I really would just do sort of a quick,
a quick sort of scan to make sure that the shows, you know,
(29:12):
for a lot of the shows that I was responsible for,
I would just give it a quick listen.
Like, are there any red flags?
Is there anything, you know, really noticeably wrong
with this?
If not, great, get it out there, you know?
And I didn't love that, you know?
It felt really surface, you know?
It's different, I like the really intense listening,
(29:33):
even if I'm not the one making the audio,
like doing the working in Pro Tools
and doing the hands-on production,
I still like doing a really deep listen
where I'm really getting into the story.
And I missed that, I missed when, you know,
when I was responsible for so much,
I really missed getting to do listening at that deep level.
Well, yeah, yeah, because it feels satisfying.
(29:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, as opposed to just sort of checking a box,
like, okay, yes, this is fine, you know?
What can I, like, as opposed to like,
okay, where am I moved?
Where am I losing focus?
Where am I feeling different things?
And how does that, you know, I just didn't, you know,
it takes time to, and it takes more than one listen
(30:15):
to really get that.
But also it takes emotion
and investing the energy into the emotion of listening,
listening to something that's deep.
Absolutely, and focus, right?
And when you're so, when you have a million things to do,
(30:36):
it's really hard to, it's really hard to get that focus.
Yeah, yeah, and when you have a million things to do,
it's hard to assign some kind of emotional content
because it takes you away from your checkoff list.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So I'm trying to get back to that, right?
The work I'm trying to do now is a lot more,
(30:57):
you know, requires more of that focus, fewer projects,
more, you know, deeper projects, that kind of thing.
Right, right, and I know that your interest
is in storytelling, and this sort of underscores
how important storytelling is.
Mm-hmm.
And we should get away from Malcolm Gladwell
(31:19):
because you've spent a lot of time, of course,
working with him, but there are some other storytellers
that you have mentioned that you've worked with.
You actually mentioned you've worked with
some of the best storytellers in the planet.
It's true, I've been very lucky.
Oh, wow.
So tell me a little bit about that.
(31:40):
Well, I'll tell you, I mean, right now,
I'm working with a journalist named Jane Perlez,
and she's the former Beijing Bureau Chief
for the New York Times, and she now,
I helped her create this podcast called Face Off,
the US versus China, and I love working with her
to tell stories because, you know, it's not an,
(32:01):
it's, you know, narrative stories are very expensive to make,
and a lot of people don't have the budget
for that sort of thing.
And so I'm working with her, or I worked with her last year
to develop this show that feels narrative,
but is a lot, it's more interview-based, right?
Like we basically created this format
where we have a very short narrative top of the show,
(32:24):
and then she does an interview,
and then there's a little analysis at the end
with another friend of hers,
the esteemed historian, Ronna Mitter.
And the top part of every episode,
we try to get her to tell a story.
A personal story, because she has been everywhere.
She knows everyone.
She's such a, just incredible.
(32:47):
She's a very reluctant storyteller.
You know, she likes, she's a journalist.
You know, I always tell her she's a capital J journalist,
right, New York Times, you know, like, she just,
she's all, she doesn't like to talk about herself.
She likes to give the information, but in a podcast,
you really do need to have that personal connection.
And so my producer, Nina Porzucchi,
and I have really been encouraging her
(33:09):
to share more of herself.
And my favorite episodes are the ones
where she really just goes into it.
So we did an episode last season about nuclear weapons.
You know, it's such an intense topic,
really challenging material.
But at the top of the episode,
she talked about this movie that she loved
when she was a kid called On the Beach.
(33:29):
It was an Oscar-winning movie with Fred Astaire and,
oh, I'm blanking on who else was in it,
but it was just this incredible movie.
And she talked about, and it took place in Australia,
and she's from Australia.
And she told the story of going to see this movie
when she was a kid.
And it was just, and we used music, of course, you know,
from the, we used a little bit of music from the movie,
(33:50):
but we also have a composer who is creating some music
for us and doing the sound design.
And it just had this beautiful entryway
into such a difficult topic.
In a way that I think makes it so much more compelling
and palatable as a story.
And then she interviews this, you know,
really interesting person,
and she goes on and does her analysis after that.
(34:12):
But that narrative storytelling top
is just my favorite part.
And I think she really likes it too.
I think she, you know, even though she's a bit reluctant
to talk about herself,
I think she does like how it comes out in the end.
And so we're trying to get her to talk about it
in a way that's really interesting.
So we're trying to get her, you know, in season two,
we're trying to find any little moment
(34:33):
that she can like share an aspect of, you know,
her own personal experience.
So that's somebody, you know,
that's something that I'm doing more recently.
Well, everybody has a wealth of experiences,
but rarely are they asked to tell their stories
(34:55):
to a broad public, you know,
every once in a while it'll come back out
as a part of a conversational point.
When you're talking to a friend or something,
oh, well, when I was like in this scenario, it popped up.
And it's kind of interesting
when you give somebody else the microphone
(35:17):
and you say, tell me your story,
there is a shyness that begins.
Yeah, and we've tried to do it in lots of different ways.
You know, my producer, Nina,
is just really great at getting Jane to relax.
And so she'll actually interview her
instead of saying, okay, tell me this story, right?
She'll just get her talking.
(35:38):
And then sometimes that'll work by itself.
Like we can just use that tape
and we'll just let the casual,
you know, the actual telling of the story to Nina
as the sound.
Other times we have to finesse it and write it, you know,
write it out and then record it more like a, you know,
like a narration.
So depending on how to do that.
(35:59):
But yeah, it is, I mean, it is a scary thing.
I mean, that's often why I'm on the other side of the mic
and not on this side of the mic.
It's much easier to be the one,
I think it's easier to be the one asking the questions
than answering them.
But it is a, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
But coming back to the original point,
which is that people have this wealth of experiences.
(36:23):
And they're in general,
they're not accustomed to telling their stories
unless they're put on point.
And then of course there's that moment of discomfort of,
oh, my story is interesting or how do I tell this story?
Or I mean, for me, there's all these little question marks
(36:44):
that pop up and then, you know,
you can't wait too long before you tell the story.
So something comes out of your mouth.
Right, right.
There's a great, you know,
another incredible local talent,
Suzanne Snyder does the, or she teaches oral history.
(37:05):
And I took one of her classes and she does this exercise
where you just have to sit in silence.
For we did it for five minutes,
sitting with a partner
and just sitting in silence for five minutes
and nobody filling the space.
And it was one of the most difficult things
that I've ever done in a sort of a journalistic context.
(37:26):
And the lesson there is that
when you are sitting across from someone
and really listening, you know, it's a silent act, right?
And that's, and just letting that space exist
and just sitting and listening to the silence
(37:47):
and like, you can really get so much out of it.
And it was so, it was shocking.
It was kind of revelatory to me.
And I really, I'm a space filler, you know, I'm totally,
if you leave a silence, like I will talk.
You can tell, you know, I just,
even if I don't have anything to say,
like I will fill that silence.
And so when I'm doing the interviewing,
I really try hard to leave space.
(38:10):
I mean, it would never be as long as five minutes, you know,
but I try to remember that exercise
and I try to really control myself
and ask a question and then just sit.
And after, actually in journalism classes,
they teach you like after someone is done speaking,
be silent for another, I don't know how long,
(38:31):
five, 10 seconds and just see if they're really done
or if there's more, or if you ask a question to like a class
and nobody says anything right away, just sit.
And somebody will speak eventually, but it's hard.
It's really, really hard to do for me anyway,
(38:54):
to just sit in silence.
Well, there's also, I think about the fact
of sitting in a school scenario.
There's a moment when you have to sort of allow
the question to percolate and then the process
of composing an answer might or might not come out quickly.
(39:16):
So there's that process that each individual
has to go through to sort of compose their thoughts
and compose what they want to say.
Yeah, and it's funny, you know,
I've actually used Zoom, like the tools that Zoom offers
as a way to help practice,
(39:36):
because I'm so inclined to jump right in
and not let the question kind of percolate
and give people time.
And so I will actively mute myself.
Like when I'm in the teacher role, I will ask a question
and then I will just mute myself.
And seeing that, like the little light comes on, right?
So it's like a reminder, like,
don't, nope, it's not your turn anymore, it's their turn.
(40:00):
So that helps me, you know, even if I wanted to,
they're not gonna hear me.
So it really, it's actually just been kind of an interesting
self-reflective practice that I've developed for myself
when I'm trying to not fill space.
But you're right, I mean, people need, they need time.
(40:22):
And it can feel awkward, but I think it's really,
really important.
You know, I was also thinking,
about your listening process when you listen to podcasts.
And you had told me a story about how you listened
to your podcasts, not in the general focusing
(40:44):
on all the details, but from the very, very beginning.
You had said to me that you like to take a podcast
out for a walk.
Tell me about walking with your podcast.
So I do, I say, I like, I am a much better listener
when I'm moving.
(41:06):
So, and I don't know why, there's probably some
physiological reason for that.
I really don't know, but what I,
the reason I started doing that is because when I was,
again, making Revisionist History, I spent so much time
sitting at my computer doing the hands-on, you know,
it would be hours and hours and hours of this like really
(41:27):
intense, you know, head, like the big headphones on,
like just listening to every little detail,
every little detail.
And when I was done, I needed to, I needed to step away.
I needed to, I mean, I needed to literally get up,
take my headphones off and walk away from it.
(41:48):
And I needed time and that to kind of forget about all the,
all that kind of detailed work.
And then when I was ready to see how I did, and like I said,
I was often doing this in the middle,
in the middle of the night and I would get into this kind of
dream state. It was, it was, it was fascinating.
But I, I,
I needed to listen in a completely different way to see how,
(42:11):
if my work was landing.
And so I would just take it for a walk.
I would just, I would just, I would just,
I would just put in my earbuds. I wouldn't wear my big cans.
I would like put in my earbuds and I would go outside and just
walk with it. And I wouldn't take notes. I wouldn't like,
well, I actually usually would take a notebook with me in case I
heard something that I knew I needed to fix,
but I tried not to do it because I didn't want to lose the time
(42:33):
code. You know, I just had to like write down where it was.
But I would try not to do that.
I would try to just walk and let it wash over me and all the
distractions, you know, dogs walking by and,
and people mowing their lawns and, you know, I live in the country.
So there, these are the kinds of things we hear,
not a lot of traffic noise, birds chirping, you know, just like.
The, the, the natural distracting sounds.
(42:55):
And it helped me hear the piece.
At a completely different level.
And it works so well to let me one,
not focus on the too many things that I'm doing.
I'm not focusing on the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
there are so many tools that are new to me right now
(43:17):
that I don't know how to use.
To help you hear it.
You know,
I sort of joked with my team that like,
because I would ask for changes that like no regular human would ever
notice, like, oh, there was a tiny little mouth clicks.
(43:38):
I had my colleague Julia barn is has a thing called misophonia where
with distractions, you don't hear that stuff.
And so you can really just listen to the story
and whether it's landing.
And so that's just become a very regular practice for me,
whatever I'm working on, to just take it for a walk.
That's sort of become my default sort of phrase
(43:58):
for when you need to step away from a really kind of detailed
listen and just see if it's working, big picture.
And I love it.
It's now my favorite way.
When I listen to audio books, when I listen to anything,
I much prefer to listen while I'm
moving.
And I just, and it gets in my, even if I'm not 100% focused
on that sound, it is still touching me in a deeper way
(44:19):
because I'm moving my body and because I'm,
I don't know, I wish I knew the science of it.
I wish I understood like what that was,
but I feel like it sinks in better when I listen like that.
So yeah, that's how I, that take it for a walk.
I think your podcast for a walk, I actually do it for my students
(44:40):
now too.
I'm like, when you're done, when you think you're done,
take it for a walk and then see if you're really done.
It's such a beautiful image.
I just love it.
And it's good for you too.
I mean, it's good to, you know, a lot of reporters and producers
spend a lot of time sitting, so it's good for you to just get
(45:01):
up and move on many levels.
Well, I think that also integrates whatever you're listening into
your body as action and somehow, somehow initiates.
I don't know, I'm lacking in being able to explain it exactly.
(45:23):
I've read a lot about how motion and listening gets integrated
into the body and into the mind.
And that's about as far as I can go with my explanation.
Something to study, something, some future study.
I like that.
Oh, beautiful.
You know, I love, I love that particular arc and yeah, it's put
(45:44):
a little star on it and say, and future things to think about.
Well, and I know with dance, you know, you really need, you're
moving to feet and you're feeling the music and it's impacting
you, but I think it works with stories.
I think it's a good thing.
It's just happening on a different level.
You're absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I think it's our bodies are what, 95% water, 7% water.
(46:10):
So any of the vibrations, sonic vibrations become a part of our
body immediately.
So there's that part too.
There's a physiological impact of, of vibration.
So taking it out of the walking and into the driving, you had
mentioned to me and something I wasn't familiar with was the
(46:32):
driveway moment.
That's an old, yeah, that's an old kind of public radio term.
I think that was also Ira Glass, if I'm not mistaken or similar.
You know, it was this, the goal of, of any producer or storyteller
is to, you know, one of the things, you know, radio is in your car,
(46:53):
right?
Like that's how, that's how people used to listen.
Now you can take your podcast anywhere.
And the goal and you're, you're often doing something else while
you're listening, right?
So the goal that we would talk about is to capture your listener
so intensely that they can't get out of their car when they've arrived
at their destination.
(47:13):
They just have to sit there and they have to be able to, you know,
get to their destination, they just have to sit there and finish
listening.
And that's the, that's what we call a driveway moment where you're
just, you just sitting there seatbelt on, maybe the car is still
running and you just have to finish the story.
And we live such in such sort of distracted worlds, you know,
(47:36):
there's so much going on all the time.
And so if a story really can do that for you, if you like, the
other, the other one is like, you forget the dish in your hand,
right?
Like if you're washing dishes, right?
Like you, you, you don't want the pile of dishes to end because
you want to keep listening.
You know, that's, that's sort of a definition of success or you
don't mind your workout, right?
(47:57):
Like these are things like we talk about, like the great, a great
podcast is the length of a workout or the length of a pile of dishes
or whatever, you know, the length of a load of laundry folding and,
and this sense of like not wanting these mundane tasks to end because
the story is so good.
You just want it, you know, you want to finish it.
You don't want to move on to the next thing.
So that's, that's what that term, excuse me, that's what that term is
(48:21):
about.
It's been around for a very long time, but I kind of love it.
And it's still, you know, it still applies.
Right, right.
Absolutely.
It was new to me, but you know, I, I'm always wanting the Monday
tasks to be over long before I start them.
So looking forward to them is kind of an interesting thing to think
about in listening to a podcast.
(48:44):
I'm going to have to try that because I had, I had allowed my laundry
to pile up after it was clean.
You know, I w I just couldn't somehow getting around to the folding
and the putting it away is just so mundane.
It drives me crazy.
I can, and I don't have that much, right?
(49:05):
You know, it's really easy.
And I was thinking yesterday or when I was doing it that I thought, well,
if I were to time this, I bet you this takes me only what three to five
minutes to put it.
And no, I don't fold my underwear.
No, I just glob, glob it and throw it into the drawer.
So, you know, that simplifies things a lot, but still, you know, the idea
(49:27):
of listening to something else besides my brain, you know, whining about
how boring folding laundry is, I could easily distract myself, you know,
by something else.
And I'm going to have to try that.
Well, and you also then get that, you know, since you're, you are moving,
right?
You're doing, you have that other task.
(49:48):
So that's taking up that part of your brain and then you're, you know, you
have different space available for listening.
I've also taken this is, I don't know, this might be a little weird, but I
I've taken to, if I, if I can't be out walking, so in the winter, especially
to doing puzzles while I listen.
And it, and it just takes up one sort of very distracted part of my brain so
(50:10):
that I can listen more fully with that other part of my brain.
And I'm sure again, I'm sure there's some scientific explanation for this,
but it allows me to listen better when I have some, I know some people knit
while they're listening.
I'm not a knitter, but I've found puzzles to be a great way to just like
take up that, that thing that does that thing that like, if I just tried to
sit down and listen, I could not do it.
(50:32):
My brain just like goes in a million directions.
I cannot do it.
Right.
And so motion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So puzzles are a good one.
If I can't be outside.
And that reminds me of the fact that when I'm on a long telephone
conversation, what I inevitably do is walk into the kitchen and do
(50:53):
something in the kitchen, either prepare a meal or wash the dishes or
something, clean the surfaces or something, make myself a cup of coffee.
You know, all that motion seems it's, it will inevitably happen.
And I'll eventually have to apologize.
I say, excuse me, I have to move while I'm talking because I have to.
(51:16):
So if you hear the dishes being washed, it's not because I'm bored with
your conversation, it's actually because I'm concentrating on it,
but I have to move my body.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, I guess it comes back to taking the podcast out for a walk or
taking the conversation out for a walk.
Exactly.
(51:37):
Exactly.
I love to walk and talk.
I used to say when I was doing a lot of management, I would, you know, my
favorite kind of conversations were the ones where we would both, you know,
and I, I did a lot of my management work when I was during COVID.
So we, none of us were, we couldn't be together, but we would both take
our calls for a walk. And that's when we would do our, you know, do our
(51:57):
check-ins and see how everyone's doing.
And it just, it was like this nice little point of connection.
What are you looking at right now?
Where are you?
What's the, you know, what's the weather where you are kind of thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And every once in a while, I think, well, you know, instead of having
a meeting in an office, we should take it out to the, out to the park.
Exactly.
(52:17):
Let's have a meeting while walking around the park.
Exactly. So much nicer, so much nicer, especially if you have to, if you
have to talk about something kind of difficult.
Right.
It's just, and you know, and actually, um, uh, it just reminded me the,
the kitchen sisters are these incredible, um, longtime storytellers
and they would talk about the best interviews being when you're sitting
(52:39):
side by side. So like, and not face to face, right.
So that you can, that, that some people get very intimidated when they
are in a conversation and they're not as able to open up. So if you sit
side by side, like you're in a car, like you're driving in a car, you can,
and like having a conversation that way, you can really get much deeper
into the conversation. Um, and so when they set up interviews, you know,
(53:02):
you don't want all the distracting outdoor sound when you're trying to
get a pristine interview, but they would sit side by side and they would
hold the microphone like this, you know, you can't see this in a podcast,
but like, you know, you can't see it in a podcast, but like, you know,
in front of them and they would, they would tip it to the side, um,
instead of forward and back, it would be side to side. And in that way,
(53:22):
they were able to, um, help some of their, the people they were
interviewing, relax more into the conversation. I just love that.
And that's what happens when you're walking with somebody, right?
You have to look straight ahead so you don't bump in anything, you know,
and you can, you, you feel their presence. You're still together.
You're still, you know, it's still a very intimate thing, but you're
still, you know, it's still a very intimate thing, but you don't have
(53:45):
that sort of intense eye contact that can be very intimidating sometimes.
And so if you're having a difficult conversation, I think it can be really,
a really nice way to sort of, um, loosen the tension a little bit.
Oh, how beautiful. I'm just sort of re-imagining walking in the park with
(54:06):
somebody and having that conversation. Yeah. It,
yeah, it seems obviously easier and it's not clear why, but another research topic.
Yes, I know.
Well, you know, Mia, we've come close to the end of our time together.
(54:26):
Is there anything else you would like to add to this podcast? Is there
anything particular that you wanted to talk about or that you're involved with
right now?
Um, I don't think so. I mean, I really love this opportunity to be able to
talk about this. I really love this opportunity to, you know, like I said,
I listen for a living. It is my, it is my job. Um, and I really appreciate this
(54:47):
opportunity to think about listening on a, on a deeper level and a, on a more
sort of philosophical level. And I appreciate your having me on to talk
about this stuff. Thank you.
Well, it's really been great and I love your viewpoint and your, your
reference things. And, um, I'm looking forward to running into you and in the
(55:08):
long run. I'm looking forward to talking to you, as well as talking to
you, and I'm hoping that, that we can get to the end of relatively close.
So one day we'll have to do coffee.
Yes. And walk and talk. We can, we can walk and talk.
With our mugs in hand.
Exactly.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate this.
Thank you.
(55:30):
Thank you for tuning into this episode of listening with China Blue.
of attentively listening without judgment.
And you can ask yourself, what is your own version of a silence?
The music for this podcast is from China Blue's Saturn Walk, co-composed with Lance Massey,
(55:52):
the creator of the T-Mobile ringtone.
If you want to learn more about me and my work, go to chinablueart.com.
And also, please follow me on Facebook at chinablueart, at Instagram at chinablueart,
and on X at China Blue Art.
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