100 Episodes Later: Our Never-Aired First Episode

We made it to 100 episodes! To celebrate, we’re doing something special—sharing the very first episode we ever recorded, one that never made it to air… until now. It’s raw, real, and full of heart. Join us as we look back on where it all began, reflect on how much has changed, and reconnect with the passion that started it all.

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Episode Transcript

Narrator (00:03):
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy
leaders and championseverywhere, brought to you by
Reading Horizons. Literacy talksis the place to discover new
ideas, trends, insights andpractical strategies for helping
all learners reach readingproficiency. Our hosts are Stacy

(00:24):
Hurst, a professor at SouthernUtah University and Chief
Academic Advisor for ReadingHorizons. Donell Pons, a
recognized expert and advocatein literacy, dyslexia and
special education, and LindsayKemeny, an elementary classroom
teacher, author and speaker. Nowlet's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst (00:46):
Welcome to this special episode of literacy
Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst,and I'm joined by Donell Pons
and Lindsay Kemeny, as I havebeen joined for now 100 episodes
of our podcast. That's why thisis special. I know.
Congratulations, you guys,congratulations. When we we

(01:08):
recorded the episode you'reabout to hear in 2021 October
14, to be exact. So that wasfour years ago. Um, some things
have changed about the podcast,and other things have stayed
remarkably the same. So we havenever aired the first episode,
which was really a lot about ourbackgrounds. So our producers

(01:33):
thought it might be a good ideafor us to release that now.
Lindsay Donnell, what were yourreactions when they said that?

Lindsay Kemeny (01:44):
I thought it was fun. I forgot that we had
recorded this episode and thenwe never released it. So this
will be fun, because perhapssome of our listeners don't
have, you know, backgroundinformation on us, and this one
really is just kind of sharinghow you know all of our three,
you know, individual journeys,you know, were into the science

(02:05):
of reading.

Donell Pons (02:05):
So yeah, and for me, it was kind of a time
capsule look back I that wasprior to the horrible bike
accident that I had had. So Ijust remembering all of that and
going, Wow, I look different.
And that was a pretty big dealfor me that occurred within the
four years, and just feelinglike I'm getting back on my feet

(02:26):
just recently. And so it waskind of interesting to look back
and see that, and it wasinteresting we were so hopeful
about many things with thepodcast, so that'll be
interesting to talk about.

Stacy Hurst (02:37):
Yeah, I agree. One thing I remembered because we
did do a video recording of it,even though those of you have
been listening for all 100episodes, or many of them, or
some of them know that westarted out not with video. So
in this episode, please applygrace. I'm in a sweatshirt like

(02:59):
I think we had no clue that itwould ever be in video format.
So basically, as we listened tothis, we asked ourselves the
question, what has changed infour years? So listeners, as you
hear the next 40 minute episodeon our backgrounds and so forth.
I want, I would ask you the samequestion to think about what has

(03:23):
changed in four years, not onlywith us, of course, but with the
literacy landscape in general.
Donell, Lindsay, any other LookFors for our listeners? No, just
happy listening. Yep, happylistening. Enjoy our very first
episode. Okay, welcome to ourpodcast. My name is Stacy Hurst,
and I'm here with Lindsay Kemenyand Donell Pons, and we are here

(03:47):
to talk about all things,anything related to the science
of reading. We're grateful tohave this opportunity to talk
about it. There's a lot ofconversations that can be had
and are being had. I'm sureabout the science of reading in
schools and classrooms in homesacross the country. So we're

(04:10):
happy to share our stories withyou today, and just obviously,
this podcast is sponsored byReading Horizons, which we're
grateful for. And you're welcometo go to their website, go to
the website and check out any ofthe resources there. So today we
thought we would just be reallygeneral and talk about the

(04:33):
science of reading our journeys,is the word that most people use
these days to talk about ourexperience with the science of
reading and relationship withit. Something that's really fun
about this group is that we allhave different perspectives
currently. And I'll let Lindsayand Donell share more about

(04:56):
their story as well and wherewhat they're doing currently,
but Donell is working with olderlearners who are struggling,
usually with dyslexia, andhelping them learn how to read.
Lindsay is currently teachingsecond grade, and also has a son
who is dyslexic, and then I amteaching pre service teachers

(05:19):
after a background teachingelementary so we have a lot of
different perspectives on thistopic, as I'm sure most of you
do, and so we're excited to havethis conversation with you
today. And so I thought we wouldstart by just giving asking a
question to each of us about howwe became aware of the science

(05:43):
that's related to how we learnto read and why it became such a
central part of what we do inour professions. So Donell,
since you started outside of theprofession of teaching, I
thought we'd start with you.
Yes, your story.

Donell Pons (06:03):
So I'm showing my age already, huh? Stacy,

Stacy Hurst (06:07):
I said nothing of your age.

Donell Pons (06:10):
Thank you. Yeah. So it's interesting, my first
career was actually as areporter for a local newspaper.
I was a journalist, and I hadn'treally thought much about
reading, other than I loved it.
That's that was what I knewabout reading, and I didn't ever
really think about my journey toreading. I was told when I was
older that I struggled withreading until I got my first

(06:30):
pair of glasses, and then I tookoff as a reader. It was, it was
visual. I couldn't, apparently,see the letters. And my mom
loved to tell that story. It washer little story that she would
tell. My mom was an educator.
She had been an educator in theearly grades, and by the time I
arrived, she was a piano teacherand lost she loved to read too,
but I just remember as a younggirl climbing into her room with

(06:51):
her climbing up onto the bed andslipping under the crook of her
arm while she was reading, andwatching her eyes scan the page
and watching her turn thosepages. And thought it was
magical. I wanted to be able todo that in the worst way, and
then when I did, I don't evenremember how it happened, but
suddenly I was reading myself,and it was something that we
shared always. And so to me,reading was fantastic. And then

(07:11):
I get married to this wonderfulguy that I've been dating for a
while, and I never thought toask about reading, and reading
is so much a part of my life.
But we went on our honeymoon,and we had purchased a book
earlier in the day to read andattend at night, and I start out
reading the book, and he hadsaid a word about reading or
anything. I handed over to himto take over reading duties, and
he starts this labored, verylabored read. And I didn't know

(07:34):
what to say. And I mean,obviously it was a moment, you
know this guy that I've justmarried, and then when I asked
him, boy that sure seemed likeit was hard, was that difficult?
And he was on the Dean's list ata local college, so I would have
thought that I came to learnthat not only did he struggle
with reading throughout he hadfamily members who were
struggling. He was probably oneof the better readers in his

(07:56):
family, and that began whatbecame dyslexia for me. But I
had no idea that's what I wasfacing at the time, and getting
information was very difficult.
So he would read with each ofour children as they were born,
and he was practicing hisreading to be able to and we
just picked up things that I wasfinding along the way. And then
eventually we had four children,and two of them would go on to
have dyslexia. And so the childwho came first had more of a

(08:21):
mild case, and had someexcellent reading teachers. They
did. They didn't tell meanything, though, that was the
issue. They took care of her.
They didn't tell me anything.
And here comes this last childwho has it all. He's got the
three D's, you know, he's gotdyslexia, dysgraphia,
dyscalculia, the math piece, andhe wasn't getting any help. It
was so difficult. And that'swhen I went back to school and
did two master's degrees inteaching and in learning and

(08:43):
education, got a special edcertification, didn't hear
anything about dyslexia. I had afantastic education. Didn't hear
anything about dyslexia, andthen I hit my first teaching
job, and I had a classroom withkids who had dyslexia and
nothing was being done. Rented acar that summer, drove myself to
Colorado and did my firsttraining in the issues of
dyslexia. And then in 2015 afantastic book comes out by this

(09:07):
guy named David Kilpatrick. Andreally it was a game changer,
because it, for me, synthesizeda lot of the research that you
had to gather on your own, thatpeople were talking about here
and there. And then, for thefirst time, you had this book
where someone had brought it alltogether. And so as soon as I'd
finished the book, I went to ourlocal chapter of Decoding

(09:27):
Dyslexia Utah, and said, Thisguy's fantastic. This book is
amazing. We got to invite him.
And one of his first conferenceswas coming to Salt Lake City,
Utah, and it was fantastic.
Yeah, got us all talking scienceof reading.

Stacy Hurst (09:39):
That's so great. Do you remember that conference?
And I met him at thatconference, and I'd only read
half of the book, and I askedhim to sign it, and he said,
I'll only write my first name.
I'll finish the autograph. Whenyou finish the book, oh my gosh,
I love it. He's smart and windy.
That's great. Yeah, and don'tknow. Well, as you were talking

(10:00):
about her, I've heard this storya lot, but I've had a couple
more epiphanies and questionsmaybe. So how old were you when
you got your glasses?

Donell Pons (10:10):
Yeah, so I was first grade. I was a first
grader, and I was struggling,and my mom was telling
literally, got the glasses, goback to school and I'm reading
because I had the foundation. Ijust couldn't see the what to
put it with it literally,

Stacy Hurst (10:26):
was the visual piece. Literally that reading is
linguistic. It's not in nature.
It's not visual solely, but youneed to do that. You have that
that's good. And then just, thisis random, but you were so
observant. I mean, my parentsread to me. I don't ever
remember paying attention totheir eyes going left and right.
Lindsay, have you had that? Didyou notice that as the

(10:49):
youngster?

Lindsay Kemeny (10:50):
No, not at all.
I just remember that in like aprofessional development
conference once where we had towatch each other's eyes as they
were reading to see what theywere doing.

Stacy Hurst (10:59):
But yeah, that's really interesting. And an
observant also. And this, again,the story of you and Curtis on
your honeymoon. It's one of myfavorites, honestly. But what
book were you reading? I don't

Donell Pons (11:13):
know if I've ever asked Michael Crichton

Unknown (11:16):
Jurassic, yes. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacy Hurst (11:19):
Okay, interesting, good stuff. And you know what
else I thought? I asked mycollege students this question
about any memory they have aboutlearning to read. Of course,
most people who picked upreading seemingly naturally. We
know that's not how it works.
Probably assume everyone elsegets it too right? I don't
remember paying too muchattention to my friends that

(11:42):
couldn't read or struggled toread, because I just felt like,
well, doesn't everybody just,you know, learn to read. So I
thought it was interesting. Justhelp me remember that, that we
don't want to take that forgranted, right?

Donell Pons (11:58):
Yeah, and, you know, Stacy, one thing I need to
mention, because I do it myselftoo, and I've had to catch
myself many times that when youdo love reading. And so a lot of
my Happy Places are associatedwith reading. And so for
instance, there's, I have afavorite bookstore that I love
to go to. It's still open dateKevin's, and it's a mom and pop
shop. It's fantastic. And I usedto go with my mom, so I love it,

(12:20):
but my husband literally breaksout in cold sweat if I make him
go in there, because and so Ihave to remember that, that I
schedule that to make sure I'mnot forcing him into those
spaces. But even after all thistime and today, he reads
fantastic. He's had loads ofintervention, but that is still
difficult. So just something to

Stacy Hurst (12:39):
think that is really interesting, maybe the
way that some of us feel aboutdental, dental offices,
hospitals, yeah, yeah. Lindsay,tell us about your story.

Lindsay Kemeny (12:51):
Yes. Well, I've always loved to teach reading.
That has always been my favoritething. And so and I was heavily
trained in balanced literacy,you know, which is basically
whole language repackaged rightin both my college years and
then my early years of teaching.
And so I just, I always said,Oh, it's the best way to teach

(13:12):
reading, right? So I taught forfive years. So then I stayed
home for about 12 years with mychildren, and then I returned to
teaching, like four years ago,and there was a couple things
happening the same year. So thefirst thing that was happening
was, it was my first yearteaching kindergarten. And
before this, I had always taughtsecond grade. So now I was

(13:34):
teaching kindergarten. You'reautomatically, you know, you're
one of the main objectobjectives in kindergartens to
teach the letters right and thesounds they make or they
represent. I should say

Unknown (13:48):
we're gonna talk about that later. Yeah, split hairs
right now, right? Not right now.

Lindsay Kemeny (13:56):
So we're naturally, you're focusing on
that a lot. And then I was sofrustrated, because then I would
bring my students to the smallgroup table, and I'm so excited
because I want to say, oh, nowI'm going to show you, you know,
you know your letter sounds. I'mgoing to show you how now you're
going to be able to read words.
And I would give them the littlebooks that were provided to me
through our big box curriculum.

(14:19):
And suddenly I am like, Oh,wait. Oh, you can't sound this
word out. And I'm finding myselfhaving to say, Oh, look at the
picture. Does it give you aclue? Now, I always said that
when I taught second grade, Ididn't really think anything of
it. You know, those three cueingstrategies. You know, what would
make sense? What's the firstletter look at the picture. But

(14:42):
it was when I was teachingkindergarten that I started to
realize, Oh, my goodness, thisis giving my students like the
wrong idea of what reading is. Idon't want them to look at the
picture and guess, I want themto apply the phonics skills that
they're learning, right? And so.
So I started to get uneasy aboutthe way, you know, the ways I
have been taught. And then thatsame year, my son was in second

(15:06):
grade, and he had beenstruggling to read for a while,
and I didn't understand it. Youknow, we read to him from the
time he was a baby, did all thethings that I had been taught,
you know, in college, in myearly years of teaching and and
he just he, he couldn't get it,and I didn't know how to help

(15:29):
him, or why, why he couldn'tread. And the end of his second
grade year, he was diagnosedwith severe dyslexia, also like
Donnell son, dyscalculia,dysgraphia. And so then I
thought, you know, dyslexia,what? What is that? And I
thought, I'm a teacher.

(15:51):
Shouldn't I know what this is?
And as I started investigating,I got really angry, because when
I learned that it's the mostcommonly diagnosed learning
disability. Then I was reallylike, Wait, why wasn't I taught
about this? And so as I wasinvestigating dyslexia, that
brought me to that, what we nowcall the science of reading,
right? This research, researchbased on reading and what the

(16:13):
brain does when what we when weread, what Dyslexics need, what
everyone needs, and, you know,and it was like a gradual
process, but I just, it was likeI was a starved animal. I
couldn't get enough. I was, youknow, every time I was at the
gym, it was like little mini PDsessions. And I remember
watching like, eight hours of,like, lectures on synthetic

(16:36):
phonics and and then gettingbooks, and then watching YouTube
videos and just it just didn'tstop.

Stacy Hurst (16:45):
So that were you?
Were you running while you'relistening to these things?
Because that's easily amarathon.

Lindsay Kemeny (16:51):
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, different things, thebike.

Unknown (16:58):
So, win, win.

Lindsay Kemeny (16:59):
Yeah, so and I remember, and, like, I remember
in a social media like, aDecoding Dyslexia group where a
parent was asking about acertain curriculum, and someone
said, Oh, that's balancedliteracy. So, no, that's like,
the worst thing for those withdyslexia. And I was like, no,
what is she talking about?
Balance literacy is the bestway, you know, it's the only way

(17:20):
I knew, because it's the onlyway I had been taught. So it was
just this gradual thing, andthen kind of connecting with, oh
yes, these three queuingstrategies and these, you know,
debunked methods that I had beentaught, you know. So then I
started applying things with myson as I worked with him, and
then I started applying thethings that worked with him in

(17:42):
my classroom, and I just saw thedifference, and I just had so
much clarity. I can think backon those early years like I feel
like there was a fog. I was justconfused. I didn't understand,
you know, I knew I had studentsthat were struggling, but
somehow we're just going tokeep, you know, plotting through
our leveled books, and somehowit's going to click and they're

(18:03):
going to magically get it right.
And now I just, I have so muchclarity, I know, oh, okay, let's
drill down. Where's theweakness? Where do we need to
work? So, yeah, that is how Icame to the science of reading.

Stacy Hurst (18:18):
Do you know that's really interesting, because this
is such a topic. Uh, thank you.
Emily Hanford, right, likehelping the whole country become
aware of this, that any educatorthat's been teaching in the last
510, 1520, 3040, years has beencreating their own journey to
this topic. Somehow we don'tthink about it consciously. It's

(18:40):
just we're doing our best, rightas we go along with the
information we have. And Ialways think it's interesting,
yeah, back and see where we comefrom with that.

Lindsay Kemeny (18:53):
And I think that's just a really important
point. And we say that all thetime in this community where,
you know, we know better, we dobetter. Because at first, you
know, I was so angry at what Ihadn't been taught when I
started learning these things,and I also felt so much guilt. I
just felt, you know, like, Oh,my goodness. Think of all the
kids that I could have helpedand I taught, I gave a

(19:14):
presentation, and I had ateacher come up to me just
crying, and she's just like,why? Like, think of all the kids
I could have helped if I hadknown this. Why didn't they
teach us this? And so I think somany of us just, you know, we
beat ourselves up sometimes, andI really think we need to give

(19:34):
ourselves grace, and we need tosay, you know, we were doing the
best we could with the knowledgewe had at that time, and now try
your best to, Okay, move on, andlet's do better.

Stacy Hurst (19:46):
Yeah, I think that's really relevant, and
especially leading with thatteacher heart, right? None of us
go in, none of us go intoteaching for the money, and none
of us go into teaching, youknow, because it's an easy job.
And if we do, we learn veryquickly that it's not so yeah,

(20:06):
thank you for sharing that.
Lindsay, you know, I've beenreflecting knowing we would be
having this conversation, and Idon't frequently tell my story
or my journey to the science ofreading, but I have been
thinking about it, and I feellike there's some key moments in
my life that kind of led towhere I am, and I came to the
realization that actually thescience of reading, I feel lucky

(20:30):
that it has always guided myteaching, and it's interfaced in
different ways with the whateverwas the thing in the moment,
right? So I thought clear back,and maybe because I'm teaching
at a university level right now,I thought clear back to when I
was a college student. Andfrankly, I hated it when my

(20:50):
roommates who were takingorganic chemistry and other
really hard classes, would sayto me, your major is just cut
color and paste, right? I getreally frustrated with that, but
I had no evidence to thecontrary. I really didn't, and I
thought, and I that's where Ilearned things like the phrase,

(21:13):
well, if you just marinate kidsin text, they'll get it marinate
has been that word has beenruined for me ever since I
realized the damage of that kindof thinking. But I realized too
early on that I felt like my owneducation at that point wasn't
academically rigorous enough,which is ironic, because we're

(21:33):
in education, right? So I that'swhen I changed my major to
sociology, and I'm really glad Idid, even though there are some
people in my life, like a fatherfigure of mine, who was like,
Great, now you're going to havetwo degrees that are equally
low, paying a good job. But, butI loved my sociology studies

(21:54):
because it did have the academicrigor I was looking for,
including research, how to doit, how to look at it, how to
analyze it, how to design it. Itwasn't thorough in that regard,
but it did give me enough of afooting. So when I did decide to
go back to teaching and finishmy teaching degree, I started. I
was hired the year before Istarted teaching. So in the, you

(22:18):
know, first hiring round,February, March of the year,
before I started teaching. And Iwas part and Lindsay, I think
you and I have kind of connectedwith this. We had the same kind
of training, like, exactly. Itwas very balanced. It was
balanced literacy. And so I wasgetting all this information and
soaking it in. I felt like I wasin a very advantageous spot,

(22:39):
because I didn't have anythingto unlearn, right? And I could
tell that from the otherteachers that were in this
training with me, because theywere always figuring out, how do
I fit this in? Where do I and Iwas like, Great day one, this is
what I do. So I embraced itfully. But because of my love of
research too, I also read thefirst grade studies, because I
was teaching first grade and abook by Bill Hoenig calling

(23:04):
called Teaching our children toread. And you don't often hear
about that book, but it was veryimpactful in my early my first
year of teaching, for sure. Solike you were saying Lindsay in
first grade, I I I taught allday literacy felt like but I
realized about October that mystudents and I was embracing all

(23:26):
the things. They loved reading.
They loved stories. We hadtalked about how fantastic being
able to read is and getting allthe meaning out of it. And first
graders are so impressionablethat you just have to tell them
they love reading and they doright until about October of the
first grade year, when theystarted realizing I can't do

(23:48):
this thing. You know, I It'shard for me to get these words
off the page and turn them intospeech, and not for all my
students, but enough of themthat I started noticing their
motivation was going down. So Iwent to the National Reading
Panel research that had justbeen published because I started
teaching in 2001 and I read thewhole big fat Green Book, wow.

(24:12):
And that's where I realizedphonics was what I was. I missed
it was missing the most of andfortunately, they gave us a lot
of guidance that meta analysiswas career changing for me, so I
knew what I was looking for. Butthere was not a program for tier
one instruction I could findthat met all of the checked all

(24:35):
the boxes, right then, like you.
Lindsay, I was at a I wasactually being trained, a
certified trainer in anotherprogram, and kind of lamenting
about this, and somebodyflippantly mentioned, oh, you
might want to check out ReadingHorizons. I've heard it's good.
I was like, What is this? And asI got into I realized it was
systematic, sequential,explicit, it was all the things,

(24:56):
and that was the. Be until then,I was creating my own stuff, and
anybody who's done that beforeknows that is hard work. So I
was really grateful to have thatguide, you know, at kind of at
the heart of my instruction andmaking a long story longer, but
that led me to where I am today.

(25:17):
I did end up working full timefor Reading Horizons and helping
to inform the curriculum, butalso in that I had the
opportunity to work withteachers across the country, and
Lindsay, like you're sayingabout that teacher who just had
so much guilt, there was not onetraining that I had, not one I
keep saying, I look for theforward to the day that somebody

(25:39):
didn't come up to me and say,Why didn't we learn this kind of
thing in college? And I had thesame question, right? I don't
know. And so really gratefulthat I could now be upstream and
teaching those pre serviceteachers daily. I get so
excited, and I should mentiontoo, I taught first grade, but
then I was a literacy coach fora long time too. So I really

(26:02):
helped. I tried to helpteachers. I tried to translate
the science for teachers. And itwas tricky. You know, it's hard
for us, all of us, to change andto embrace new ideology and
science, frankly, so.

Donell Pons (26:16):
And Stacy, that's when I met. Was it a training?
It is exactly that was ourmeeting.

Stacy Hurst (26:21):
And by the way, Donna was so stealth, like I had
no idea that I had such aknowledgeable person in my
presence. Sat there and soakedit all in. I didn't remember you
ever commenting or asking aquestion. And then after all in,
yeah, yeah. So after she came upand we started talking. And I

(26:43):
know this is a podcast, youcan't see us, but we've worked
together since then in one wayor another. But when we were
both involved with a school, Ihad somebody comment, because
Donnell and I would frequentlyrun into each other there and
have conversations, and somebodysaid, I just love watching
YouTube talk. I can be a mileaway and because apparently

(27:04):
we're both very animated withtheir gestures. So anyway,
nothing changes, right?

Lindsay Kemeny (27:12):
Nothing changes.
So Stacy. So would you say thatyou taught phonics before, when
you taught balanced literacy?
And how did it look different?

Stacy Hurst (27:21):
Oh, my gosh, I love that question. Uh, you know
what? I taught a form of phonicsinstruction. I knew it was
important. We learned that inbalance literacy, right? Yeah.
It was called Word Study, and itwas kind of separate from
everything else, although I hadread it, yeah. I mean, yeah,
yeah, interesting.

Lindsay Kemeny (27:41):
I just remember, like, I remember I did phonics
too, but it was just kind of,oh, what word chunk is in our
story today? Oh, here's a wordchunk. We'll do that, you know.
And I read this little posterwith the vowels, and I put
little word chunks up there was,like, no system. It was just
whatever's coming up in thestore. You know

Stacy Hurst (28:01):
what? I love that you asked that, though, because
I think this brings up a reallyimportant, really important
point I in that training. I hada year long training, I won't
say the name of the training,just to be respectful, but it
was very balanced literacy. Andthere was one specific training
we went to that was on the wordwork part of the, the part, and

(28:23):
we, the person who was trainingus was, they were training us on
this specific manual, and it wasreally a lot of activities with
words, not necessarily phonics,right? I mean, yeah. Anyway, so
she mentioned, and she was theauthor of it, I think, or she
said, But she said this, andthis was after the National

(28:43):
Reading Panel. And she said, Bythe way, those of you who have
the first edition of this book,don't worry about purchasing the
second edition. But becauseafter the National Reading Panel
came out with their study, allwe had to just rearrange the
lessons and put on there that itwas explicit, systematic and
sequential phonics and thatinside of me at the time, I

(29:04):
remember thinking, that's weird,that's weird, but I didn't have
the context or the understandingat that point to say, Oh, I see
what you're doing here, right?
You're marketing something thatisn't actually the thing, yeah,
but that. And then as time wenton, I realized the impact that I
had on my students.

Donell Pons (29:22):
So Stacy, it's interesting the National Reading
Panel. You know that you went tothe green book, read the whole
thing, right? Because that wasmy, my first touch with National
Reading Panel, and how importantthat foundation, then to then
move to the rest came from DrSally Shaywitz and her book
overcoming dyslexia. And so in2010 she put out the first
edition of that book, and Ipicked it up at the library. I

(29:45):
was you had to go to the libraryto get this information. There
still wasn't actually a wealthof information yet available
online. And so I went to thelibrary and checked out that
book, and I remember I startedreading it in the library and
didn't set it down until I wasfinished a few hours later,
because. Speak. She was justspeaking everything that I was
seeing with my own child, andfor the first time, somebody had

(30:07):
a path, somebody was laying outa way to get there to reading.

Stacy Hurst (30:11):
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. And Daniel,
you and I have had thisconversation frequently. And
Lindsay, I think you have areally unique combination of
being a teacher in that earlyelementary space and having a
son with dyslexia, Donnell, yourpath to this was directly
because of dyslexia, right? Andas a general educator in a as a

(30:33):
first grade teacher, Idifferentiation is always front
and center in my mind, right? Ihad that as a goal of the time
daily, and I remember hearingabout dyslexia. And do you
remember early on theconversation was there was a lot
of doubt as to whether or not itwas an actual thing. I remember

(30:55):
hearing that frequently, andthen I always remember when I'd
go to trainings, and peoplewould start talking about
dyslexia. I honestly, as a firstgrade teacher and as a literacy
coach, focused on the generaltier one instruction, I remember
initially thinking, Now, likemyself today, I would be

(31:17):
embarrassed to admit this, butI'm giving myself grace. I
didn't know better, but Iremember thinking, why do we
have to learn about dyslexia?
That's a special ed issue I amteaching all the kids, right?
And it wasn't until I readovercoming dyslexia and post in
the squid actually by MarianneWolf, and my fascination with

(31:38):
both of those books was the factthat finally, it told me how the
brain learns to read. Finally,we know what happens inside of a
head and how to inform thatright? And then I started
realizing the impact thatDyslexia has. And interestingly,
Lindsay, you express anger aboutthe fact that we weren't taught

(32:05):
any of this stuff. My angerspecifically dealt with dyslexia
too, because I then you go backin your mind and you're like,
oh, this kid, this kid, this kidI got, I could have done better
by them, but I didn't even, Ididn't even hear the word. I bet

(32:25):
you, I didn't even hear theword. And you guys, I graduated
from college with my readingendorsement.

Donell Pons (32:31):
I totally firmly believe it. You don't have to
tell me, yeah, absolutely. Andyou know, Stacy, it's
interesting. You should mentionthat, because I call my folks
with dyslexia the canaries inthe cave, because, bless your
souls, you're why we have a lotof this information, right? Are
the folks who struggled. Theother thing that I think was
really critical, important tounderstand about dyslexia,
particularly, which really kindof broadened my understanding of

(32:54):
reading and then helped me as Istarted to pick up the
information. And that what we'regoing to call science of reading
the information the research wasliving around so many people who
have dyslexia, and knowing that,like Dr Sally Shaywitz said, the
profile of the dyslexic, thedefinition from the 1800s is the
definition we have today. Imean, that's it, because it's

(33:17):
neurobiological in origin,right? And so that was just so
interesting. And the people Iwas around were otherwise really
bright. Yes, they had learned toread. So that was the other
misnomer. Oh, folks withdyslexia don't know how to read.
Yes, they do. It's just notgreat, right? They're struggling
with it doesn't sound very good,and they're not getting a whole
lot out of it. And that wasanother piece to understand. Is
because I think people trulythought that if you didn't know

(33:39):
how to read, or were strugglingwith reading, then you couldn't
read anything, right?

Lindsay Kemeny (33:45):
Well, and I, when I first was investigating
dyslexia, what I read was, Oh,your your son will probably not
never read past a fifth gradelevel, right? There's just so
many misconceptions, and it'slike no that, you know, even
though they're dyslexic, theycan still learn to read.

Stacy Hurst (34:07):
Yeah, I think that's a really important thing
to note. And then the otherthing that I think that came out
of that and where we currentlyare with the science of reading
and all the research that hasgone into what are, what, how we
practiced since the NationalReading Panel, which, by the
way, I'm still surprised whenteachers can't name the five I

(34:30):
and maybe to me too, in a way,it's because it's informed my
entire career. But not everyoneyou mentioned. I know it was
2010 until, like, that's, youknow, it's probably most
people's experience. And I didwhat I do, and I got off topic
on say, hacking. Yeah, I can'tremember where I was going, so

(34:54):
I'll just Well, I thought itwas, well, I thought was

Lindsay Kemeny (34:57):
interesting, Stacy, when you were saying,
like, back. When you went tothat training, and they kind of
repackaged themselves to kind ofline up with the national panel
reading panel. And I think we'reseeing a lot of that today,
where a few years ago we were,there were so many people trying
to get the, you know, science ofreading out there. Now it's out
there. It's gaining traction,and now we have to protect it,

(35:19):
because there are so many thatare just slapping the label the
term science of reading, eventhough they might not be, you
know. So I just we have to besuch critical consumers now. We
really have to learn theresearch base.

Donell Pons (35:34):
Yeah, yeah. And Lindsay, you made an excellent
point, and you pointed outyesterday that there was a
presentation by Dr SteveDykstra, who's in this field and
area.

Stacy Hurst (35:43):
And he presentation, just to clarify,
don't know the reading link,yes,

Donell Pons (35:47):
it's a reading LEAD conference. He gave a
presentation, and this, it wasso excellent, because it's right
on point with what we werediscussing. And Lindsay, you
were very quick. We were textingeach other. That was so
exciting. Yes, that wasfantastic. But he, he, he starts
off. And I thought the first 26minutes, I was like, Oh, this is
Dykstra. I've heard him before,but no, he was setting up. And

(36:08):
he put a bull's eye on there. Hewas setting up the conversation
about what Lindsay's just madethe point of Steve Dykstra
saying, okay, so we have theresearch, which is in the
middle, it's the bullseye, thestuff we really know, the
science of reading, which is theresearch, and it has the salient
points. It's made some excellentpoints. It doesn't know
everything right? The science ofreading, it's still it's spongy,
and we're figuring things out.
We haven't researched absolutelyevery aspect. We know certain

(36:28):
particulars. And so SteveDykstra said we have to be
careful about what's in thebull's eye and what our
understanding is, and thenwhat's outside of it, and how
far we get outside of it. And Ithat's such an excellent I think
we'll be using that Bullseyeconversation a lot as we Oh,

Lindsay Kemeny (36:44):
I love it. And he was talking about how for
some people, the Bullseye was isa little smaller, and for others
widen it a little more, right? Ijust, I loved that.

Stacy Hurst (36:54):
Do you know why I think that is as I was listening
to that. And just by the way,America, whoever's listening, it
is true. Lindsay and Donna weretexting each other on our
texting stream, and I was tryingto go to sleep, and I kept
getting this at 104 he saysthis.

(37:18):
Well, don't you worry, at threeyears when I did wake up, that
was the first thing I listenedto. So I got it, and you're
welcome for me not adding tothat text strand at 330 in the
morning, just Yes. But as he youknow, speaking of Steve Dykstra,
I went to a presentation that hegave, I think it was a plane
talk a couple years ago, precovid, when you got to see each

(37:41):
other in and he talked about thehistory of reading, I teach my
students that he framed itaround three studies that
impacted reading. And I thinkLindsay to your point, that's
the context we were all missing.
So how can we expect, how can Iexpect my pre service teachers
that in a few short years aregoing to be the teachers in the

(38:01):
classroom. How can I teach them?
How can I prepare them toanalytically, look at programs,
look at curriculum, and tellwhat's going to be effective and
what isn't not based on what Isaid, But based on what science
says. And as I thought aboutthat, oh, by the way, I do teach

(38:24):
my students, that I teach themthe three studies and the impact
that they had on on the readingcommunity, and I think that has,
so far, I've seen that reallyhelp them. But I also think we
cannot underscore the importanceof teaching or focusing on the
scientific process. Yeah, thatwhole thing, we learn about it
in science, but it's relevant ineducation daily.

Lindsay Kemeny (38:48):
Well, you know what book you should have your
students read is the Goldilocksmap. I just read this Andrew
Watson, and it is all abouttaking research or hearing
something someone says, andfinding out if that's what the
research says, and kind ofdigging in just to see how valid
that is. And it's like it goesthrough the step by step
process. I love it. And then Iwanted to say just about

(39:13):
Dykstra, because he also kind offollowed up on Facebook. And I
just, I'm just going to read youwhat this little part that he
said, because it's just so good,because he's talking about that
bedrock science and how there'smore time in our day we, like,
we can't only teach that. We'vegot to make some informed
decisions other things. I thinkabout that all the time when I'm

(39:36):
like, You're hearing debatesbetween experts, and you're kind
of like, okay, but you guys candebate that. I have to go in,
and he should tomorrow. Youknow, he says we must also be
cautious about the adminadmonition to do only that which
is clearly dictated by science.
I don't think that's possible. Ithink we should do everything
that science dictates,neglecting nothing, but with the
remainder of our time. We shouldfill instruction with other

(39:57):
scientifically. Reasonablethings, things we are prepared
to adjust and modify, toreconsider, reform and replace,
that will be easier to do if weare clear from the beginning.
What is that science? What it isthat science dictates and what
it is that we judge asreasonable in the light of that
science, because they aredifferent things.

Stacy Hurst (40:18):
I love that it's the same thing that I've heard
many people, David Kilpatrickamong them, that says, if you
have a solid theory based inscience, then you can make
assumptions that are going to beaccurate. And he was talking
about what we now call the heartword approach, right? But the

(40:38):
way to teach irregular wordsthat will facilitate
orthographic mapping in thebrain, and it's based on linners
theory, but it wasn't, you know,they didn't have to test that
itself to know that it's goingto have good implications,
because it's based on a soundtheory. And then is it Daniel
Willingham that wrote, how doyou trust the experts too.

(41:01):
That's another book that I thinkI've been Oh, I haven't read
that one. It's really good. Heframes it really well too. And
then Lindsay just quickly, too.
I love that you brought up howSteve Dykstra followed up on
Facebook, because social mediahas played such a big role. And
the fact that those of us whohave been immersed in the
science of reading for a longtime now feel this instinct to

(41:23):
be protective of it. That's tome, where those instincts are in
full play, because I have toreally monitor the way I
interact with social media,because sometimes I see things
that are incorrect on there, andjust knowing how to address it,
I've been really impressed,Lindsay, with the way that you

(41:43):
have you've approached that.

Lindsay Kemeny (41:47):
I feel like I've learned so much from, sorry,
from social media. Like I'malways like, I need like, you
know, can I get professionaldevelopment? You know, point
credits from Twitter, becauseI've learned more there than
anywhere else. Yeah, you know,

Stacy Hurst (41:59):
Jan Hasbrouck was an early promoter of Twitter for
reading instruction, and knowingabout the science, she'd say
that at every presentation, Ithought it was really cute and
beyond cue, very useful too.

Donell Pons (42:11):
Stacy, you brought up something interesting too, as
we were having this conversationwe do all the time about the
science of reading, and we'vetalked a little bit about a term
that emerged around the sametime? Well, not came much after,
but it was interesting. It was aterm structured literacy, right?
And it was a term that a groupof individuals came together.
Louisa Moltz was part of thatgroup, and they wanted to come

(42:33):
up with, what are the thingsthat should be in a good lesson,
right, the things that we knowfrom science and so that
teachers could have some sort offoundation or guide through a
lesson. And so the structuredliterary literacy was referring
to teaching that systematic andcumulative, right? It had some
really nice, good terminologyfor folks to hold on to, and we
were kind of lamenting thatthat's term and and

(42:55):
understanding is fallen by thewayside. And we're wondering
why. It's kind of interestingthat in all of this shuffle of
information that has been kindof left behind, yeah,

Stacy Hurst (43:05):
because, to Lindsay's point, that's the how
you do it, right, right? And Ithink that has been brought more
to my attention as a collegeprofessor, because I I'm
teaching my students thatfollowing the three study, I
say, okay, that whole languagecame from this nine page study.
And then after the NationalReading Panel published their

(43:27):
study that aligned more with theother two studies that were many
more pages than that, as SteveDykstra helped us to remember,
then we have a new term calledBalance literacy, which is
mostly whole language repurposedplus phonics, right? And then we
have structured literacy so itjust, it tracks. But we have, I

(43:47):
think if you ask most people,they would say, whole language,
balanced literacy, science ofreading, which is, in my
opinion, misuse of that term,because the science of reading
should inform our practice,absolutely. But it's not just
the practice, it's everythingthat goes into how we know

(44:08):
reading happens, right?

Donell Pons (44:09):
Yeah, and so Stacy, it was interesting when we met,
going back to that first time,when you were you were doing a
training for Reading Horizons.
When you gave that training andyou said, I was so quiet because
I was absorbing and I wasrunning through how this fits
structured literacy. So I verymuch. I put everything through
that what I understand and knowof what it should look like when
you're putting it into practice,and was running it and checking

(44:32):
off my list. And it wasinteresting, because we kind of
talked about this later as wegot to know each other better,
that I was so excited when I sawthis, and I was really just
literally soaking it up, hopingI could remember everything I
wanted to remember about what Iwas seeing, because I thought it
was such a fantastic method thatwas ticking all of my boxes. And
you you saying later that thatisn't that interesting. When

(44:55):
someone has a background andunderstanding they know it when
they see it, right when you see.
You are very excited, yeah,

Stacy Hurst (45:02):
and you know, I was thinking about that too,
especially because I have hadthe privilege of working for the
company, but a very unexpectedcareer path for me. I You could
have said to me 12 years ago,you'll be working for a company,
and I literally would have had anegative reaction to that. Why?
Why would I work for a company?
I'm not gonna lie, part of mestill feels that way, but not

(45:26):
about Reading Horizons, and thatit goes along with when you
know, you know, right? And whenI joined Reading Horizons as a
full time employee, it reallywas just sure I could do this
for a year or so and see whatit's like. It might be cool to
take it back to my classroomwhat I've learned, but honestly,
that is where, you know, we'renot just repurposing things and

(45:48):
putting a label on something.
These are, this is we call it acompany, but I still think
there's got to be a better name,because we really are helping.
We're helping with this bigcause of literacy, and that is
very much at front and center ofeverything that happens at
Reading Horizons. In fact, eventhough I'm teaching college full

(46:09):
time, I'm still associated withReading Horizons

Donell Pons (46:12):
Stacy. You know what's interesting, because out
of that same conversation thatwe had, I had, I had to receive
training in a lot of differentmethods, and at that point, and
I was, like I said, a sponge. Iwas just trying to and what I
was really looking for was to beskilled enough to not only help
others, but I still had needs inmy own household. I still had
needs under my roof, and I stillhad a husband that had received

(46:34):
a little here, a little there,and it wasn't fantastic, and
there were still a lot of holesin what he needed and wanted to
have, and he still expressed adesire to become better. And
that was one of the things thatthe science of reading
beautifully because of theresearch tells you that they can
still learn, right? And so myhusband, many other people had
told him, Oh, you're too old,you know, because they didn't

(46:55):
understand the research. Theydon't understand the science.
And the science says, No, you'renot too old. It's never too
late, and then being able tocome back and say, I think I
found something here that wouldbe useful for you. And then to
have him go through that programand receive skills that he never
dreamed he could have. And nowto have a confidence to read in
a way that he never thought hecould and to do so in public,
which he never thought he wouldever do. He would always be

(47:18):
looking for the exit, in a way,to leave the room, and now he
comfortably, no, I can handlethat. I can do that, and you can
have it to him a few minutesbefore, and he's fine with it,
even on the spot, he's okay withit. And he never thought he
could be that person. And that'swhat we're talking about here.
That's the difference betweenhaving the knowledge of this,
not just having access to butthe knowledge of the research
and understanding and then thepractice and all of it coming

(47:41):
together. That's what it does.
It changes lives, right?

Stacy Hurst (47:44):
Yeah, and like Steve Dexter was saying, I don't
think any of us would saythere's one way to do it right,
but knowing the correct elementsto put together in a systematic
way makes a big difference.
Yeah, do you know I remember Ihave done now, and sometimes
we're lucky enough to haveCurtis make an appearance when
they come to my class to talkabout dyslexia, but Curtis says

(48:06):
something really powerful that Ihad the opportunity to make sure
my students understood thecontext. But he said, I don't
even show up on dyslexiascreeners as dyslexic anymore.
So my students thought that wasreally cool. And one of them
says, so you can fix dyslexianow you can't you and Lindsay,
you're gonna you know thatyou're in the thick of all that,

(48:28):
right? But anyway, there's,there's so much we could
continue to talk about, but it'sprobably time for us to stop
talking for now. We'll take thisconversation back to our text
strand. Yeah, right. And youguys, I'm planning on going to
bed about 10 tonight. So okay,

Lindsay Kemeny (48:49):
all right, we still have more to watch,
though. There's more of Yes,

Stacy Hurst (48:53):
lots more to talk about, right? Yes. Thank you all
for joining us today, and we'rewe're looking forward to more
conversations like this.

Unknown (49:03):
All right, thanks.

Narrator (49:05):
Educators and administrators know how
important it is to close thegaps in foundational literacy
skills for older learners.
Reading Horizons Elevate isdesigned to help students in
grades four through 12 andbeyond master foundational
skills they may have missed bycombining direct instruction
with engaging age appropriatesoftware. Reading Horizons
Elevate makes readingproficiency attainable for older

(49:28):
learners, helping students builda strong literacy foundation is
key to unlocking success acrossall academic subjects. Visit
reading horizons.com/elevate tolearn more.

Stacy Hurst (49:43):
Well, that was really fun to listen to. It's
been a while, so those of youlistening, we're back in the
present, 2025 so I would I askedthe question right before the
episode aired, what has changed?
In four years. Donnell, howwould you answer that question?

Donell Pons (50:03):
Yeah, well, I kind of answered a little bit before
it started with saying I had adramatic bike accident, and so
things changed for me quite abit that way. And then also I
was just thinking that in thatfour years, a lot of our hopes
and dreams, anyway, for thepodcast, was to have a place
that we felt we could all comeknowing all of our backgrounds

(50:24):
were quite different, and beable to discuss topics around
reading and the challengesaround teaching reading
correctly, where people couldfeel like because of the diverse
voices, maybe there's someone inthere that sounds a little bit
like me or close to mysituation, and so you could find
yourself or a place in therethat felt like it spoke to you.

(50:44):
And I think that's one of thethings that I, I hope, the most
that that has occurred. We'vetried to maintain the integrity
of that by encouraging eachother to bring their viewpoint.
And I think that's one of theunique things about the podcast,
even today,

Stacy Hurst (51:01):
yeah, Lindsay, how would you answer that question?

Lindsay Kemeny (51:04):
Yeah. Well, for one, you know, I just shared a
little bit about my son, and soit's interesting thinking back
then he was in sixth grade, andnow he is a 10th grader. He's a
sophomore in high school, whichis just crazy for me to think
about. And so back when we were,you know, recording this, I was

(51:28):
just in the thick of providingintervention for him and helping
him learn to read every day,which I did like for four years,
up until he was in sixth grade.
And then once he started juniorhigh, the next year, I wasn't
working with them one on oneanymore, but so it's kind of fun
to think about that, and it'sinteresting to think about how
much you know this maybewouldn't be apparent by

(51:50):
listening to the podcastepisode, but just thinking, how
much more have we learned? LikeI feel like I've learned so much
more than the beginning when wefirst started this podcast. So
that's kind of, you know,exciting to know and realize
that you're just continuing togrow and to, you know, go on
this journey, you know, deepenour knowledge all the all the
time.

Stacy Hurst (52:12):
And there were a lot of things that we hadn't
planned for that's happened withthe podcast, like the fact that
we have video. I mentioned thatbefore, but also we, at the
time, I don't think we werereleasing episodes weekly, just
start out with right every otherweek. So that changed. We, I

(52:32):
don't think we had in our headsthat we would do conference
recaps like we have, or howhaving guests would look,
because initially we didn't planon having guests. So yeah,
there's been a lot of thingsthat have changed. Um, what
landed exactly the same for youas you listen to that.

Lindsay Kemeny (52:54):
I love how we mentioned Dijkstra Bullseye
analogy and we were talkingabout watching the reading
league conference. So was thatvirtual in 2021 because we were
talking about recordings, youknow? And we were, yeah, we were
talking about how we were uplate, like Donna and I were
texting, and then we weresaying, there's more to watch.

(53:16):
So I'm like, what, what were wewas it, uh, online, or maybe
there were both versions and wedid online. I don't know. I
don't remember either. So I wasthinking, is that when he the,
when he first introduced hisBullseye analogy, I don't know,
but I love that, and I thinkit's still so, you know,
relevant today. And I was like,gosh, do we know a lot more now

(53:38):
about, like, what's closer tothe bullseye or not really, you
know. So I think, I think thatwas interesting. And then I
really love how we were talkingabout the term science of
reading. And it's almost alittle disappointing that it's
like we are still four yearslater, it's still the same
problem where, and probably evenmore now, where all these
programs are just slapping theterm science of reading on their

(54:02):
products, whether or not theyare well aligned or researched
or have any evidence, you know.
So it's just, you know, thepoint we made four years ago
still holds true, that you'vereally got to do what you can to
understand the science yourself,so that you can be a critical
consumer as you're looking atthe different products and

(54:24):
trainings and things

Stacy Hurst (54:26):
available, which would inform that would help
inform how close you get to thebullseye too, right? Because the
more knowledge you have, thecloser you can get. And I think
as a community, I think we aregetting closer to the bullseye
when it comes to phonemicawareness, right? We had those
hard conversations in socialmedia and other places, and I

(54:46):
think we're getting closer tothe bullseye with the way that
we implement that in practice.
Donnell, what were yourthoughts? What landed the same
for you? And what did younotice?

Donell Pons (54:57):
Yeah, I think we've all kind of touched on it. The
evolution of ideas, and thelonger something sits with us,
we get comfortable. Terminologyis comfortable. We're able to
speak to it better and just haveexperience with it. And then
that really does bring parts ofit that feel we have ownership
over it, because we've actuallyworked with it. And I think

(55:18):
that's just really important.
It's part of this whole process.
And so people can be atdifferent points of that
process. And it's what I love,is that there's opportunity for
everyone to participate inconversation about it, no matter
where you are within theprocess. So you might be, have
been a teacher for so many yearsand worked with many of these
various aspects. It's familiarto you, or you may be coming to

(55:39):
this new and there's room foreverybody to have a conversation
about it. I thought it wasinteresting that structured
literacy, the term got a littlebit of a glow up in the last few
years, if you would about it,was a feature focus of the
International DyslexiaAssociation in their
publication, and so we did afeature on it, and just coming
to understand better what itmeans and how it is based on the

(56:01):
science of reading, but it isn'tthe science of reading, and it
doesn't encompass all of thescience of reading. That's how
the how you do it, and the whatyou do, of how you teach this,
and that was really importanttoo, is getting more familiar
with and a greater understandingof those things. And I think
that just comes with theterritory and with the space, I

(56:21):
think the conferences havegotten, in my opinion, better in
the sense that I think there'smore strategic, targeted
presentation at the conferences.
I think that's that's probablymy way of explaining it. But it
seems like they, they're reallythoughtful at the conferences
about where, what, what do? Whatdo you think are the most
important, salient things peoplewould probably need to know

(56:43):
right now and trying to targetthat. So I think that's been
interesting too.

Stacy Hurst (56:49):
Yeah, I agree. And Daniel in the episode, you
brought up that we were stilloperating with the same
definition of dyslexia. We knownow that Ida is going to
announce the new definition.
They're going to address it attheir conference in October 2025
so that's something that'schanged. Let's talk about

(57:11):
professionally. And I thinkDonnell, and I don't have very
exciting answers, I think we'restill pretty much doing the same
thing, right? I'm still teachingin higher ed. Daniel is still
tutoring, doing her amazing lifechanging work and advocacy.
Donnell, would you say thatanything has changed with you

(57:32):
professionally in the fouryears?

Donell Pons (57:36):
No just having more opportunity to work with even
more students who are exitinghigh school without the reading
skills. So even though we'rehaving all these urgent
conversations in k3 and talkingabout all the things that are
being done to help educators geton their feet and get ready to
teach students to read so we cando that critical work early,
which is phenomenal, and we needit, I am still seeing a ton of

(58:00):
students exiting high schoolthat don't have the reading and
writing skills they need. That'sreally sad to me.

Stacy Hurst (58:07):
I would echo that, and I'm still upstream doing
what I can do. I was thinking Ireferred to the way I start my
very first reading class with alecture, also by Steve Dykstra.
By the way that I think, is Istill use it, and I think it's
very beneficial to help set thestage for our students to know

(58:27):
that they're entering the fieldat a different time than we did.
And and why that matters. I feellike history is important.
Right? Context matters. One kindof exciting thing for me is that
I get the opportunity. Nothinghas been finalized yet. There's
a whole lot of steps in highered to create a class that will

(58:47):
be focusing on vocabularycomprehension and writing
written expression. So that'sbeen exciting, and I think that
would be a slight change for me,professionally and but Lindsay,
you have had the biggest changein four years professionally. So
tell us what has changed for

Lindsay Kemeny (59:06):
you. Well, I'm still little books. I'm still
teaching so but when in 2021, Iwas teaching second grade, I
had, I had just been teachingkindergarten, I got moved to
second grade, which I've taught,you know, in older years for a
while, and then, and now I'm infirst grade, so that's
different. And then I think whatyou're alluding to is my books,

(59:27):
right? So I have published threebooks since 2021 so seven mighty
moves, seven minded moves,reading resources and rock your
literacy blog. So yeah, that'sthat's kind of weird to think
about, and I do a lot of publicspeaking and professional
development now, which I don'tthink I was in 2021 so that's

Stacy Hurst (59:48):
exciting. And you know, I would say too, we have
gained some friends through thispodcast. We've had a great
opportunity to interact withmany of our listeners. I. I just
got a text on Saturday from oneof our listeners as she was
listening to an episode, and shejust couldn't help but share
with me what she was thinking. Ilove those. We get emails like

(01:00:11):
that from time to time. It'sgreat. So thank you for joining
us for all of these 100 episodesas listeners. Donnell Lindsay,
any closing thoughts? This thismonumental point for us. Did you
think we'd make it 200 episodes?
I don't know if I really thoughtabout

Lindsay Kemeny (01:00:31):
it. I don't know if I knew what to think, but
here's to the next 100, right?

Stacy Hurst (01:00:37):
Yeah, any notes for the 200th episode?

Donell Pons (01:00:41):
Well, I would just like to add to so many people,
as you mentioned, just kind ofbriefly mentioned, Stacy, that
there were so many people whohave come on the podcast as
guests, and they're phenomenalfolks in the reading world, and
how generous they are and howmuch they really do want to
help. And so for the next 100I'm just hoping that we have
even more of those conversationsthat we can share and that

(01:01:02):
others can join in.

Stacy Hurst (01:01:04):
Yeah, and I'd invite you as listeners to think
back on the last four years inyour life and what has changed
in the way that you do what youdo with literacy, right? And
hopefully we've all refined ourknowledge and improved our
practice. We also would beremiss if we did not mention
Reading Horizons. We aregrateful that they sponsor this

(01:01:26):
podcast. Clearly, we could notdo as well with without them. So
thank you for reading horizon toReading Horizons for doing that.
Okay, well, then you hear youheard it here. Here's to the
next 100 episodes, so we willsee you before that, though many

(01:01:46):
times, starting next week withour next episode of literacy
talks. We hope you join us then,and thank you.

Narrator (01:01:56):
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to
you from Reading Horizons, whereliteracy momentum begins, visit
reading horizons.com/literacy.
Talks to access episodes andresources to support your
journey in the science ofreading.